Second of my three postings today...

There are a lot of things that probably take time to change. Bad/annoying habits, dealing with conflict, etc. These are things that take practice to put a new behavior in place. I understand and can accept a backslide, Heck I know I’ll have them as well. Err ... I mean I’ve already had them.

But to me there is a difference with honesty. That is not a mistake or a slip-up. It is a conscious decision to deceive or mislead. Each and every time a lie is told it is a conscious decision.
Then there is the absence of complete truth, lies of ommission. My STBX has told me so many lies that even one more seems like a deal breaker.

I think it is. MB’ers ... should it be a deal breaker?

Even now I feel lied to regularly by my STBX as we see if a recovery is possible.

Example: (Just a analogy of real conversations)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TJ - “ Did you ever eat dinner at Joe’s Diner with OM?
STBX - “No we never ate there ... I couldn’t do that with him”
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now I have Chat session that contains this ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OM- I REALLY REALLY LIKED EATING AT JOE’S IT WAS DELICIOUS HAHAHAHAH
STBX - I liked it too. Especially the deserts.
OM- THE DESSERTS .... OMG YESSSSSSSSS I WANT TO GO AGAIN, YOU BE THE DESSERT HAHAHAHAHA
STBX- I’d go anywhere with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, that is actually how the OM chats , all caps and lots of HAHA and trailing letters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Ok now. I tell her what I know and that She and OM said they went to Joes and ate there. She still denies it, says she doesn’t remember what they talked about, but it was just talk they never did THAT.

Is the truth what I read, or what she said? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Is she incapable of telling the truth?

I am trying to make it easy for her to be honest with me. Something I recognize that I didn’t always do in the past. But that is still no excuse for lying to me. She says she just wants to protect me. It is all for me.

There are many things like this.

Lying is a deal breaker with me. How can I recover with her (especially when I’m not sure I want to recover with her) when she lies to me?
I expect a very big lie in the near future if continue to see each other. When do I say enough is enough. Or do I just say to her again, I know that is not true, please tell me the truth. Only to get more lies.

She has made several promises and commitments to me the past three weeks that she has broken. While I don’t consider these actually lies, it does reinforce my feeling that I can’t count on her or depend on her for anything.

I really feel like I’m wasting my time with her.

My DV can be had in a short amount of time I'm told by my attny.

Tom:

"I think it is. MB’ers ... should it be a deal breaker? "

You think.

You think it is.

Therefore it is.

You think.

(Paraphrased from "In the Beginning" - Moody Blues)

The OM sounds dumber than an 11/32" sheet of CDX plywood.

I asked you on your other thread, when is the DV final? You say here that it could be over soon.

Anything stopping you from proceeding?

Her current behavior could simply be a result of her anticipation of this "impending doom." Only time will tell.

-ol' 2long

Hi, Tom.

Enough is enough when you finally set a boundary that you won't let her cross.

Right now, she meanders all over the place because you tolerate it.

Two things have to happen in your life in order for your situation to change appreciably.

1) You have to recognize that she walks on you because you have no boundaries regarding her.

2) You have to do something about item 1 above.

When you do define some boundaries, I don't think you are going to like the results from your wayward wife. I could be wrong, however. It is possible that she will make a sudden change for the better.

My guess is that you will grow, and she won't. I think that is already occurring, hence her sudden attention.

Whether or not you two reconcile, the part of your marriage that contributed most will have to be addressed by you and repaired in you. It looks like you have already started on that.

All this is to say that YOU decide what is a deal breaker or not. Marriage Builders can't decide that for you. I will tell you that once you set a boundary, you will find out if your wife's pursuit of you is legitimate or not.

I wish you all the best, Tom Joad.
Gimble

2Long, I was kind to him. I don't know how smart he may be, but it is what it is.

But what does that make me. UGHHH. Such a loser.

Tom:

Dammit man, you are NO LOSER.

In fact, you are a great American hero! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Just had 2 get that out.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying to make it easy for her to be honest with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay Tom to me it seems you set her up to lie to you. I'm in NO WAY defending her, please hear me out.

You knew she went to Joe's, yet you set her up to lie or tell you the truth.

You could have said, I read your email, and I can tell you went to Joe's, this really hurts me.

She all ready has the facts in front of her, there is no reason to lie, but when you hide the facts and she lies, and then spring the truth on her, she just lies more to cover up for the initial lie. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Tell her you want the honesty, don't be afraid, it is time for her to pay the consequences, she needs to face them instead of avoid and hide.

If you approached her the way I said, and she still lied, I would then say you have a real problem on your hands, but try that approach, give her the facts you know, and then express your concern or hurt feelings.

I'm not sure how long her A has ended, I do know you have recently decided to recover. I'm guessing her lie is about loyalty to OM. This will fade. Her loyalty will shift back to you, guide her Tom, you can do this.

KY

I don't get it - why are you the loser? BECAUSE YOU DON'T TYPE IN CAPSSSSSS AND TALK ABOUT MEANINGLESS THINGSSSS???? HAHAHAHAHHHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

Lord, give me a break!

I think I just realized...

You were calling the OM a loser, not you, right?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Tom,

I'm trying hard to stay out of this joint, but what the heck -

You are so much like I was with my DD's dad. With the lies, and the self-doubt, and the not wanting it but wanting it. Finally for my own sanity, and for a happy and serene home for my DD, I walked.

I echo what the others say Tom. When a lie, any lie becomes so intolerable to you that you can't tolerate it...you will have your boundary.

Lies DESTROY people, they should not be tolerated. Lies threaten people's sanity.
Lies hurt.

Now 10 years later, I have a rule in my home. One that not even my precocious, very spoiled little girl will cross. NO LIES. Our's is a house of truth. Period.

She wispers me the truth sometimes, but I have no doubt that she will never lie to me, in our safe haven.

There will never be punishment, anger or outrage in my house for the truth. Not now, not ever, ever again.

It took me much pain and heartache, but I have a boundary now. The most important one I think. And I am at peace. (mostly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You'll get there. You are a good man Tom!

Boundaries are the hardest concept I ever learned in my life.

Oh and what KY said too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

weaver:

Why would you want 2 stay out of here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I did the same - setting up my X to confirm again and again that he lies.

And, it'll last as much as you can take it... better to say - until you allow to be lied to...

She might stop, once, hopefully, but if you ever ask about the OM, don't expect the truth.

Well, the more you sits the wider it gits.

If you know what I mean.

Mines been parked in front of this old computer 2long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for the responses and perspectives.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KY shared:
Tell her you want the honesty, don't be afraid, it is time for her to pay the consequences, she needs to face them instead of avoid and hide.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> KY also said:
You knew she went to Joe's, yet you set her up </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well KY, I was probably incomplete with my statement. I had told her I knew that. (by the way there is no Joes, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ) I didn't tell her how I knew until after she lied.

She choose to lie. I didn't set her up, I'm not tricking her. She can tell me the truth or not. She still lied even after I confronted her again. And the lies are about all kinds of things not just her undying loyalty to OM.

BTW, over 10 years ago WW ran an ungodly credit debt up without my knowledge. I mean ungodly. I told her that I knew she had secret credit cards, and she still looked me right in the eye and lied. In fact I told her "look me in the eye" and she did and she lied. I don't know how to deal with that??? Even when you know the truth and they know you know the truth they still lie.

It's like standing in the rain with her under an umbrella and me getting soaked. She'll just say it isn't raining.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gimble said:
When you do define some boundaries, I don't think you are going to like the results from your wayward wife. I could be wrong, however. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gimble I have set some boundries and made decisions on how I want to continue in life and with my next partner.

My query is... you set a boundry. It is crossed. Then what? You say I may like my WW response, I say that we will be divorced soon. I do believe that she can change and be truthful, but it won't be with me because after she crosses that boundry we will not have any contact. So how do you handle someone crossing your boundry Gimble, without tolerating it?

Weaver, I so much do not want to punish my STBX for honesty. I know that I may have done this in the past ... we both need to relate to each other differently on this.

Yikes Tom, good to see you hanging in there. A lot of WS's continue to lie because they don't want to hurt the BS. Of course, that is not the right thing to do, but very common.

What you have to figure out is whether or not your wife has the capability to change. Some people have a life long tendency to lie. For me that would be a deal breaker.

As far as boundaries, they define what you will tolerate. Boundaries are not to tell people what they should or shouldn't do. They are for the boundary-maker. So you can do a little boundary work.

Decide what you will or will not tolerate. Let your wife know. If she chooses to violate the boundaries, then you need to continue on your own.

Tom, is she in therapy? It sounds like she has a long history of not being honest. Perhaps she is not even honest with herself. That would be really sad.

If she is in therapy do you know what they talk about? I'm worried that if she is not honest with herself that she may not even be talking about the right things with her counselor.

.

Tom,

Been here a long time, am very pro-marriage. Let me ask you something. Is there any data that she has changed at all? I see no evidence in ANY of your posts and I have read most of them, that indicates that anything has changed, other than current OM MAY be out of the picture.

She has behaved pretty much the same way for most of your marriage and she not changing now. She sees no reason to. There have been NO consequences, and frankly you can not bring to bear any consequences that will wake her up.

So please explain to me why you are considering stopping the divorce. I really want to hear this, because there is nothing in HER actions that suggests that anything has changed.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Remember when you asked about how would you know if you could know if the recovery was real?

I think I told you that you'd know within three weeks - tops.

I think you have your answer sooner than that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tom Joad:
<strong> .... So how do you handle someone crossing your boundry Gimble, without tolerating it?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Consequences.

Simple example:

Tom: "Dear wife. You have indicated to me, some interest in recovering our marriage. I am interested in that as well. I must tell you, however, that if you lie to me, then we are done. There will be no second chances. Knowing that, are you still interested in proceeding?"

Tom's Wife: "I can't promise that."

There you have your answer, and the only thing you had to do was be honest about your requirements for recovery with your wife.

If you need other examples, I will be glad to provide them, or I can explain the concept of boundaries in other ways if you like.

All the best,
Gimble

Here's a lie that's okay:

Nazi officer: "Ahh ze tenants of zis flat hiding in ze basement?"

Landlord: "No sir, ze basement ees only full of ze rats."

Nazi officer: "Goot enough zen, heil Hitlah"

Landlord: "Heil Hitlah"

That's a lie that's okay.

Acceptable lies are rare.

The mass of them do harm.

GC