Hi Atruheart and Ecxpa,

Thank you for the replies. I wish I would have logged on a little earlier. WH called a little while ago. He talked to DDs (oldest one actually talked to him because she was excited about her win today). Then he wanted to talk to me. I just asked him where we are going. He said he didn't know. I told him it was his choice, if he wants to continue with OW we stay here. If he wants to go to NC with OW we will discuss the options if that happens. He didn't answer (as usual). I asked him if he was planning to live with me if I returned. He said, "Of course, why would I have you come here then live apart from you?" I asked him what OW would think of that. I asked him if she would be happy going back to 20 minutes in the parking lot. He just said, "Uh, no, she doesn't want you to come back." Well DUH!!! I don't know if he is trying to bait me or what with that one. I think he is trying to use reverse psychology thinking, HMMM, if I tell Suzanne that OW doesn't want her to come back, she'll come back just to spite OW." He knows me very well. But, I was proud of myself, I just said, "Gee we wouldn't want her to be unhappy would we?" I would love to see her have to slither back under her rock. My thoughts are that (and I know her pretty well, well, take that back, I used to think I knew her pretty well) if I were to come back, she might finally get it through her head that WH is never going to leave me for her. She is opportunistic and shallow, but she used to have a very logical side, perhaps it will manifest itself long enough to tell her that her love life is going to be spent in the Del Taco parking lot for the next ??? years. What a happy future that represents!!! I would hope that would spur her to start seeking a relationship with someone who is available. I know most of you reading this are screaming that my WH needs to be the one to cut it off, but he really has no backbone. Will he ever develop one? That's the $64,000 question. I will continue to pray for guidance, direction and clarity of thought. I am trying my best not to make emotional decisions. Not easy, because I am a very emotional person.

Right now I almost feel like laughing because OW is having a little bit of anxiety it seems, but then again you are not supposed to rejoice in your enemy's suffering. Oh, come on Lord, just a little, PLEEAAASE? No, I am a better person than that. I just want her to get herself right with the Lord and move on to some nice SINGLE, available man who will love and cherish her. Weird, but I really do want that. (Maybe it is a little bit of selfishness on my part, because that would mean that she is leaving my WH alone).

Anyway, I am rambling. Sorry.

Suzanne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by atruheart:
<strong>

WS's love to manipulate and play both sides. Sounds like unless YOU ARE real STRONG one way or the other, your H is going to keep it that way!

You have already done the move.......STAY PITCH Black right now while you "think".
Don't call and tell him anything! make him call you and then NOTHING about YOU at all! Only about the children thru someone else.

That is my instinct on what "might" make him either sh*t or get off the pot!

Blessings and Prayers,
Atruheart </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Atruheart,

Like I said, I wish I would have read this earlier, before I talked to him. I do not call him, I wait for him to call us. But, he still manages to manipulate me.

Like I said in the last post though, I am wondering what effect it would have on OW if I were to return and he stayed with me. She would really start to LB him--I know that for a fact. That would drive him back home where, if I am doing a good plan A, he will feel more peaceful than with little miss perfect. This is my guess, of course, I am probably more than a little foggy myself. Feel free to tell me if this sounds too "pie in the sky".

thank you,
Suzanne

Yep,

It does. Sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

While you are away..in a sort of plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> [don't make me get the stick!] and she has to meet all of his needs..you are the ghost..the person who only exists in special small increments and memories..and OW has temper fits and morning breath..

..move back without firm NC and recovery plans and you reverse roles. It works to OWs favor. She becomes his special friend again. 20 min in the parking lot was just fine for H..and he looked with a jaded eye at you and your household..how you paled in comparison.

Just because you are in a tough spot financially..does not make going back a good plan..it really just means you stepped all over your brothers good hospitality for nothing. He will not want to play the yo yo game with you next time. You are sabotaging what few options you have.

If you can accept that H is a limp wristed adulterer who will waffle between the two of you forever..then by all means..go back with things as they stand..

Saying H has no spine is quite absurd..he has refused you very well hasn't he?

He wants you both, and is doing an excellent job of accomplishing this.

Do not be fooled, least of all by yourself.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> Yep,

It does. Sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


..move back without firm NC and recovery plans and you reverse roles. It works to OWs favor. She becomes his special friend again. 20 min in the parking lot was just fine for H..and he looked with a jaded eye at you and your household..how you paled in comparison.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you noodle!

My only thought is " okay the 20 minutes in the parking lot was just fine for H," but what will OW think of going back to that little setup? I am very sure she will not like it, maybe not tolerate it, but then again, she has been pretty pathetic for the last two+ years. So, you probably have a very good point. I hate trying to figure out what goes on inside the mind of these people. I guess I should stop trying to. If only I could figure out what is going on in my own head first. That would be a good accomplishment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Thanks again noodle for the food for thought.

Suzanne

Well, WH hasn't called me today, I am assuming it is because he had to spend the day with OW. He did call his friend and asked if the friend needed anything from their country because my MIL is supposedly coming here in 10 days. WH told me he wants to bring her here, but he hasn't told me a specific date. I am trying to decide if this is a good thing or not. My MIL loves me dearly. She does not know about A or any of the garbage that has gone on for the past two years. I did not expose to her because 1. She was dealing with her daughter dying of cancer, 2. She has mental health issues, ie, depression, schizophrenia 3. I don't believe WH would listen to her either. My big problem is that when she has been here to visit in the past (usually for 3-4 months at a time) OW was my GOOD friend and MIL loved her too. I am not sure what her reaction will be. Please keep in mind that my WH is from the Middle East where men may have up to four wives. My MIL does not condone this but it is not as big a deal to most Arabic women as it is to Americans. (Unless of course it is their H who wants to marry an additional wife.) I would like to believe that MIL will stand up for me, especially because of my DDs. The older one is named after her and she has always felt close to her. MIL has never seen DD 6. The last time she visited America was when I was pregnant.

Then again, MIL was divorced by FIL when WH was about 13. It was an arranged marriage and MIL was very unhappy (big age difference). She left the family for about two weeks (I don't believe it was for another man, she just was overwhelmed) but when she wanted to come back home FIL would not let her come back. In Syria, children are the PROPERTY of the father. MIL lost her children and FIL married a horrible woman (who coincidentally reminds me a great deal of OW). So MIL may still harbor some bitterness about this and champion me. It's really hard to say though because MIL adores WH and believes he can do no wrong sometimes.

I feel this is also another ploy to bring me home. WH believes I am leaving MT tomorrow to come home. He's going to be surprised. Then again, I have wanted MIL to come to visit for a long time. Again, I am in a stupid situation where I don't know what exactly to do.

I have been praying and it seems that the answer keeps coming back that I am supposed to return and "be nice, but strong, with a quiet spirit" Specifically I have been getting scriptures that seem to indicate that such as Isaiah 30:15 which says, "For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: "In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quietness and confidence shall be your strength." But then it adds, "but you would not." That was me. I found it impossible to rest and wait on God. Another verse that was given to me is Jeremiah 24:5-6 "thus says the Lord God of Israel, "Like these good figs so will I acknowledge those who are carried away captive from Judah, whom I have sent out of this place for their own good, into the land of the Chaldeans. For I will set My eyes on them for good, and I will bring them back to this land, I will build them and not pull them down, and I will plant them and not pluck them up."

Also Jeremiah 42:12 And I will show you mercy , that he may hae mercy on you and cause you to return to your own land." And Ephesians 4:31-32 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away from you, with all malice, and be ye kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God in Christ forgave you.

These are verses I believe the Lord led me to. I have been praying for direction and discernment to do what is right. I have to trust the Lord, He is the only One completely trustworthy.

I WAS planning to leave to go home tomorrow, and WH knew this. I was thinking about waiting a couple of days just to make him sweat. Without telling him what I am doing. Then when I think about it, it is playing a game, I'm no better than he is. But then I think, this whole A has been a game to him. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Once again, I am rambling. It's 1:00 in the morning and I really need sleep, but am not able to. Sorry for the long post.

Suzanne

Hi, Susu.

You have been given some excellent advice here, and from multiple points of view.

I realize that I don't post a lot here, but I bet there is little doubt that I am a firm believer in strong boundaries :-)

Having said that, I want to urge caution in your decision.

While dragging out a decision is often a bad idea, making a well thought out decision is a very good idea. I think you need to take at least a couple of weeks before you do anything.

If your husband is desperate for his mother to come visit, then he can care for her and explain your absence. Yes, he will lie, but that is not something that you can control. His mother is HIS problem.

Your husband is obviously a conflict avoider. Most wayward spouses are. Most betrayed spouses are as well. So, spend the next two weeks praying and listing PRACTICAL boundaries or 'stipulations' for your return. Ask God to quickly make you strong where you stand. That way you will be strong when you walk to wherever you are going.

Have you considered your husband moving to where you are? Or maybe a city in between.

What are your job prospects?

My point to you is simply this. Find a position of strength to work from. Do this BEFORE you decide to do anything else. Make finding a position of strength, your very first positive decision.

Tell your brother what you want to do first, and ask for his help.

Tell your husband that you will be deciding what you will do over the next two weeks. Tell him that his decision or not to IMMEDIATELY end his relationship with the other woman will weigh heavily in your decision. Tell him that his waiting until or if you return home to decide whether or not to break off the affair with other woman, is not an option. He has to decide now. Tell him he has two hours to let you know. Then hang up.

If he calls back and tells you that he has broken it off, then write down the date and time and what he said. If he does not call back, then after the two hours is up, write down the date and time and that his decision was to continue on with the other woman.

Refer to the notes you made above, good or bad, during your decision period.

During your decision period, Do NOT allow your husband to add ANY ADDITIONAL COMPLICATIONS to your decision. None, Do not discuss anything else with him.

There is my opinion of a decent start for your situation.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi Gimble,

Thank you for the clear thinking.

While dragging out a decision is often a bad idea, making a well thought out decision is a very good idea. I think you need to take at least a couple of weeks before you do anything.

I thought of taking a couple of days, but a couple of weeks sounds more like a definitive period of time.

If your husband is desperate for his mother to come visit, then he can care for her and explain your absence. Yes, he will lie, but that is not something that you can control. His mother is HIS problem.

I'm sure OW will step right in here and suck up to MIL and paint a very "lovely" picture of me. This could backfire on me.

Your husband is obviously a conflict avoider.
The biggest!!!

Most wayward spouses are. Most betrayed spouses are as well. So, spend the next two weeks praying and listing PRACTICAL boundaries or 'stipulations' for your return. Ask God to quickly make you strong where you stand. That way you will be strong when you walk to wherever you are going.

I had never been a conflict avoider in the past. I have always been the "take the bull by the horns" kind of person. But this A has knocked me on my behind.

Have you considered your husband moving to where you are? Or maybe a city in between.

We have talked about it, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that my husband would never make it here because 1. His job does not exist here (He is a smog technician--no smog in Montana) 2. He feels somewhat isolated in CA where he has Middle Eastern friends and two cousins, the people here are predominantly Northern European types with whom he would not identify very well. He would be totally isolated here. and 3. He refuses to be in the snow.

What are your job prospects? I have been a SAHM for 7 years. I was a technical writer for a software company (OW now has my job, I begged boss to give it to her) It would not be easy to get back into the workplace; however I do have some independent income.

My point to you is simply this. Find a position of strength to work from. Do this BEFORE you decide to do anything else. Make finding a position of strength, your very first positive decision.

What exactly do you mean by this. Can you give me an example. I feel rather dense this morning.

Tell your brother what you want to do first, and ask for his help.
I mentioned that I might take a couple extra days and my brother told me I should just go home and do what needs to be done. I think his patience with me is worn out.

Tell your husband that you will be deciding what you will do over the next two weeks. Tell him that his decision or not to IMMEDIATELY end his relationship with the other woman will weigh heavily in your decision. Tell him that his waiting until or if you return home to decide whether or not to break off the affair with other woman, is not an option. He has to decide now. Tell him he has two hours to let you know. Then hang up.

this is very good advice. I was trying to figure out how to deal with him if I stayed the extra couple of days. This is excellent.

During your decision period, Do NOT allow your husband to add ANY ADDITIONAL COMPLICATIONS to your decision. None, Do not discuss anything else with him.


Thank you so much Gimble. This gives me some direction (which I sorely need)

Suzanne

Good morning,

I feel stupid for even asking, but does anyone have anything to add to what Gimble wrote. I see a lot of good points, but for some reason, I am still struggling. Addiction to one's spouse is a very powerful thing it seems. Of course, so is addiction to the OP. This thought makes me so depressed. If WH feels this way about OW, I feel like it will never end. Even after all the garbage he has put me through, I feel this way. OW is Miss Smooth, why should his addiction end? I am really having a hard time with this. I know everyone says A's generally end within 2 years. WH actually told me "It's been more than two years and we (WH and OW) still have the same feelings, it must be real love." OUCH!!!

Any other imput/encouragement would be very welcome.

Thank you,

Suzanne

Hi, Suzanne.

quote:
==========================
My point to you is simply this. Find a position of strength to work from. Do this BEFORE you decide to do anything else. Make finding a position of strength, your very first positive decision.

What exactly do you mean by this. Can you give me an example. I feel rather dense this morning.
==========================

A position of strength is a place of immutable reference. Be it a truth (something the Lord has given you) that you can depend on, 10,000 dollars in your back pocket or just knowing how to set and enforce boundaries without faltering.

I can't feed your position of strength to you, that you will have to figure out and do for yourself.

My position of strength is that I will never fail to face, head on, whatever comes my way. That position is the reason why, that a bit over 30 years ago, I changed from being an over-the-top-swinger/manipulator/drug addict (we are talking extreme cheese here) to an honest, hardworking one woman loving man of honor. I took responsibility for who I was and what I had done.

Back to the city your husband lives in. I understand his need for like community. He may, however, need to give that up in deference to his marriage.

So, he doesn't like snow. What about a different city away from the other woman, but in the same state? There are lots of smoggy cities in CA.

All the best,
Gimble

Hi, Suzanne.

I should also mention that I think you should make an effort to apologize to your brother for your sometimes overly emotional behavior (I am not saying that you have been that way) and that you very much appreciate his patience with you while you work through this. Then let him know that you have a plan and ask for hi help.

One other thing. Get someone to help you work on your resume. Regardless of what happens, you are going to need to work for a while. You need the sense of independence, and your husband needs to lose some of the perception of control he has because of your financial status. This is likely a cultural issue with him, one that I think needs to be displaced.

All the best,
Gimble

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Gimble:
<strong> Hi, Suzanne.

I should also mention that I think you should make an effort to apologize to your brother for your sometimes overly emotional behavior (I am not saying that you have been that way) and that you very much appreciate his patience with you while you work through this. Then let him know that you have a plan and ask for hi help.

One other thing. Get someone to help you work on your resume. Regardless of what happens, you are going to need to work for a while. You need the sense of independence, and your husband needs to lose some of the perception of control he has because of your financial status. This is likely a cultural issue with him, one that I think needs to be displaced.

All the best,
Gimble </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you Gimble,

I actually have apologized to my brother. He and I have always been extremely close and it has been very hard on him watching the emotions I go through. He doesn't understand anxiety attacks at all. Still, it is very disruptive to his family. His wife is visiting her sister in CA and really doesn't want to come back until I'm gone. We get along all right, it's just very stressful for her. I understand because I know firsthand what it is like to have people other than immediate family living with you. It's nearly impossible.

Also, thank you for clarifying the position of strength. I will have to really analyze this one. Right now I feel about as strong as new puppy. The Bible says, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." That will be a starting point.

Thank you again.

Suzanne