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I have seen this topic discussed on the board before but would appreciate your take on it.
I understand all the practical reasons for behaving as a married person until you sign the paperwork on your D papers.
What I was wanting to learn more about is how this is treated from a scripturual standpoint. When is your M over from God's perspective? Is there a definitive answer or are there different interpretations? When is it okay for a person to move on?
I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this when you have the time!
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I am not a ver religous person. However once the papers are served I believe it is time to move on. It is ok to see OP.
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starman:
I'm not a religious person at all (though I am spiri2al).
BUT, and FH will tell you the same when he comes here, it is not okay 2 "move on" or "date" until the DV is FINAL, not just filed.
And even then, it's not FAIR 2 date if you're not emotionally healthy - meaning, you're not haning on2 the possibility of reconciliation with your STBXW.
You're a moral man. I know you'll do the right thing when the time comes.
-ol' 2long
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I was wanting to learn more about is how this is treated from a scripturual standpoint. When is your M over from God's perspective? Is there a definitive answer or are there different interpretations? When is it okay for a person to move on?
I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this when you have the time!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Starman, I'm a little unclear as to WHY you are asking these questions. What is the reason behind the questions? Perhaps if you can clarify that a little I could be a bit more specific.
However, in the short term let me simply give you a couple of things to think about. If you want specific Biblical references, I can provide those to you later. Understand that these answers are MY opinion and interpretation of Scripture, but I believe that they are supportable BY Scripture.
1. "When is your M over from God's perspective?"
Answer: Never. Marriage was instituted by God and the result is a "one flesh" condition. The fact that this is a "mystery" to us isn't all that relevant. The FACT that it is so, even though we may not now understand "how" this is so, does not negate the truth. Simplistic example: We may not understand aerodynamics and how lift is generated, but we DO know that planes DO fly despite being "heavy." Our lack of knowledge, that someone else DOES understand(aeronautical engineers, for example) does not negate the truth of flight.
2. "Is there a definitive answer or are there different interpretations?"
Answer: Of course there are "different interpretations." There also comes into play the issues of adultery and forgiveness, not to mention "Christian" versus "Non-Christian" marriage.
God "allows" divorce, but God hates divorce. He "allows" it for the Faithful Spouse because of the "hardness" of human hearts and to "protect" the Faithful Spouse from commiting sin themselves in response to marital unfaithfulness.
Remember, unrepentant adulterers will NOT be in heaven. They are specifically included with others who will not be in heaven. God will not, and cannot, allow sin a place in eternity with Him or with His "saved" children, the "Bride of Christ."
3. "When is it okay for a person to move on? "
I assume you are asking from a Christian perspective, so I'll answer from that perspective.
A) When the divorce results from "marital unfaithfulness."
B) When an unbelieving spouse decides to leave a believer in an "unevenly yoked" marriage.
Once the divorce is final, the Faithful spouse is free to marry again without themselves committing adultery. But, the distinct caution is that any such subsequent marriage should only be to another believer.
Since divorce is a very stressful occurance, a lengthy delay in "getting involved" with someone else would be advised. "Get stablized" before allowing emotional involvement that can overwhelm your good senses and rational control. Even Jesus took time to be alone with God when the emotions became intense and crushing. "He restoreth my soul."
God bless.
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starman,
Foreverhers is right on.
Thank you for replying FH before I got off work. You are the best.
Anyway, what FH has told you is totally scriptural. I could show you where this is at in the Bible.
I couldn't have said this better.
To make a long story short, God does hate divorce. However, there are provisions if there is adultery, unrepentant, I might add.
If in fact this is the case, you are allowed to divorce, however, any new relationship needs to occur AFTER the divorce is granted. Not to say this is easy, but it is the way. Also, if you start a new relationship, it really, REALLY needs to be with someone who is a believer. Equally yoked and all that.
If you need scriptures, just ask! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Love to you starman, prayers for you, and prayers for Foreverhers, also.
Love in Christ, Miss M
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Starman.....I think the answer you are looking for is best found in your own backyard....so to speak? :-)
Do you follow the teachings of a particular religion. If so, this may be a good place to start searching for answers.
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Thanks for the replies everyone.
ForeverHers,
I have been blessed very recently with the understanding of what a real relationship with God is. I had been going to church off and on for years, searching, but never really "getting it" until about a month ago. Since that time I have a real desire to learn as much as I can, as fast as I can. It's been a great and exciting experience for me.
Here's the reason for my questions. My STBXW has been involved in several relationships with OM since the R with the OM she moved out of the house to be with fell apart. Her latest R ended a couple of weeks ago. I have been judging her behavior as wrong and nothing short of adultery up to this point.
I realized that I didn't know from a scriptual standpoint if this was fair of me or not. Since the D papers have been filed and I have agreed that the D needs to go forward, is the fact that she is in R with other men NOW okay? I have been using the fact that she is continuing to have these R as a reason (the biggest reason) for continuing the D process.
As for me, I know that I will not be getting into a R with anyone until well after the D is final. I do recognize that I am not ready to have a healthy R with anyone right now and would be simply using them to satisfy the more basic needs I have. It would be wrong regardless of whether I was trying to live according to christian teachings or not.
Miss M
I would appreciate it very much if you could steer me to the scriptures you're talking about whenever you get the time! Thanks for your time.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the reason for my questions. My STBXW has been involved in several relationships with OM since the R with the OM she moved out of the house to be with fell apart. Her latest R ended a couple of weeks ago. I have been judging her behavior as wrong and nothing short of adultery up to this point.
I realized that I didn't know from a scriptual standpoint if this was fair of me or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">starman, this IS adultery and calling "sin" a "sin" is not "judging." Not only is it "fair," it is a requirement that sin be confronted in love.
Since you haven't said, I am going to assume until you tell be differently, that you wife is NOT a Christian. As such, NOTHING related to "obey God" is going to have much meaning to her.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since the D papers have been filed and I have agreed that the D needs to go forward, is the fact that she is in R with other men NOW okay? I have been using the fact that she is continuing to have these R as a reason (the biggest reason) for continuing the D process. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, who filed the Divorce papers? Since you "agreed that the D needs to go forward" I am assuming that your wife filed.
I'm afraid that I know way too little about your situation to offer you much "directed advice" at this point.
I'm going to suggest that you need to clarify her faith status and why the push for a divorce at this time before I say much more. The one thing that I'm going to do for now is to refer you back to my previous post. God HATES divorce. So far it does NOT seem to me that you and your wife have done much to try to rebuild your marriage and are "rushing headlong" to divorce.
Divorce may well be in your future, but it shouldn't be until you have exhausted all alternatives.
God bless.
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FH,
There is something I want to ask you regarding this topic. Something that really made me think these last couple of days…
I have a dear friend who are in a very dissatisfying and abusing M for years now. (She is married for 30 years and in her late forties). She is a Christian who takes her obedience to God and the Script very, very seriously, but her H is a non-believer who refuses to read the Bible, engage in religious talk or go to church at all. A lot of issues have built up throughout the years between them and there are many, many problems and dissatisfaction in their M. Her H also has problems with alcohol during weekends and I know in their earlier year of their M, he has physically and emotionally abused her. He still abuses her verbally, but the physical abuse stopped years ago. Her H also refused (and still refuses) to receive any Marriage Counseling at all… My friend never divorced her H in spite of all these things because she wanted (and still wants) to stay obedient to God and her promise in front of the altar. She knows God hate divorce and she know if she want to follow God’s rules about divorce, she can’t divorce her H until 1.) he approach her first for a divorce OR 2.) he commits adultery and give her a legal right (according to God) to divorce her him. She is a “white and black†person who doen’t believe in ‘grey’ areas and ‘exceptions’ (like abuse) for divorce at all. It’s almost if she thinks if she ever ask her H for a divorce because of her circumstances, she will commit an unforgivable sin in the eyes of God… It's almost if she thinks God have a reason & purpose for these circumstance she finding herself in. She thinks God want to teach her something by this. The problem is, lately she has expressed the desire verbally that she wish her H will ask her for a divorce or that she wish he can meet someone else and leave her… She said if her H ever ask her for a divorce she will divorce him immediately except if he change drastically and become a new born Christian.
FH, as you know, I’m also a Chritian who believes in God’s commandments very strongly, but I think things are not always just ‘black’ and ‘white’. IMO there are many ‘grey’ areas in life which allow ‘exceptions’ on the ‘rules’ and I believe my friend’s M and circumstances is such a case - an 'exeption'... IMO it would be much better for my friend on this stage to divorce her H and go on with her life, than to stay in these circumstances that influences her relationship with God negatively. And on this stage, her relationship with God is influenced negatively by this because 1) she wish her H to commit sin (adultery) in order to give her a legal reason to divorce him. IMO she commits adultery in her own heart by wishing these things and 2) in her own heart she has already divorced him because of her verbal expression and wish that he will ask her for a divorce. IMO they are emotionally divorced a long time ago and I don’t view theirs as a marriage in the full sense of the word. What is the purpose to go on with this type of M if her H doens't want to surrender himself to God and doesn't want to seek help for their M problems? I believe my Saviour is a God of love and grace and that He will have understanding for my friend's circumstances should she ever decide to divorce her H. But it seems she doesn't view it this way. She thinks God will view it as deliberate sin and punish her for it...
FH, what do you think? What is your opinion on this?
Suzet <small>[ February 15, 2005, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>
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ForeverHers,
I tried to post a couple of times yesterday but couldn't get it to go through for some reason.
My W is a Christian. She was very active in her church when we met (Baptist). She went to the school and graduated from there. The pastor of the church was a father figure to her. They were very close. Her own Father was out of the picture due to D. I started going to her church with her since I wasn't a member of any at the time. A few years after we were M the pastor was transferred to another church out of state. We slowly stopped going altogether after that.
About seven years into our M is when the real problems started. She began going out to the bars with friends of hers a couple of times a week. She ended up having an A. When I found out she immediately stopped and we reconciled very quickly. The problem was we never really worked on the problems in the M. My W has also always had an unhealthy need for attention from men that she has never addressed. About a year later she was back into the same lifestyle.
I naively thought that I was doing a good thing by letting her go out all the time. She always seemed so stressed at home and I was never much into the nightclub/dancing scene. She seemed to really love it so I thought why not make her happy?
She continued to slowly distance herself from me and the kids. Finally, a little over two years ago she met the OM that she ended up leaving us to move in with. It's about this time that I discovered MB. I did plan A for about five months. Then I found out that she had been in several other A prior to the one she was in at the moment. I filed for D after that.
Several months later my W came to me wanting to try and reconcile. She had already split with OM and been through a couple more by this time. We started R, but it never really got off the ground. She wanted me to sign legal papers giving her equal custody of the kids. I was unwilling to do this at that point and she stopped trying. The reconciliation fell apart.
I then went into what would be considered a bad plan B. This continued up until three months ago. I decided to "test the waters" and see what kind of response I got from her. I found out that she had started seeing yet another OM before our reconciliation had even completely ended. That relationship had since ended and she was in another one that was on its last legs when I came back into the picture.
I told my W that I was still willing to try and reconcile with her if she would stop seeing OM and cut contact with anyone she had previously been seeing. She told me that the relationship she was currently in was over. She gave me the impression that this was her idea and that she was trying to decide what to do about us.
About a month ago I found a rough draft of a letter that she had written to the most recent OM. She told him that she was in love with him but that it was just too hard to spend time with him because he was also seeing other women at the time. It was unbearable for her to love him knowing he didn't have the same feelings for her.
When I found this I realized that she was just using me as back-up. I believe that if this man had called her with a change of heart she would have jumped at the chance and left me sitting there. So I went back into plan B with a vengance this time. She does not know that I found this letter. She never said that she was willing to commit to the NC conditions I had set for her.
That's where we are at today. I know that somewhere inside she realizes what she is doing is wrong. She just needs validation from men so badly that she has found ways to justify what she is doing. She told me that since we are separated it's okay if she sees OP. I know what her church would say about that and she knows too.
She refiled for D herself a little over three months ago. We got in another argument about the kids and I believe that is what prompted her to go ahead and file. I have been counseling with SH since the beginning of this. We came to the conclusion that continuing the D was the proper course.
I know that she is miserable and lost right now. She said that she prays everyday for God to tell her what she should do. She did start going to church again about six weeks ago. But she has been unwilling to change her behavior up to this point.
WOW, that was a mouthful. There's the situation. I would appreciate any observations or opinions you could offer. Thanks FH.
starman
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FH, I send you some more background and info about my friend’s situation on my other thread. Please read it too before you respond. Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet
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Starman, Dude. Buddy, Oh pal of mine...After reading this thread I finally see what your marriage situation was about. Sorry it took me this long to catch it...(I like MB, but it is hard for me to find particular threads when I need them at times).
Anyway...considering your wife is a perpetual liar (which is what a cheater is--hate to call a spade a spade), you are experiencing lack of trust in her. Understandable...But because you are even asking whether or not you can move on tells me you don't want to move on. You still love her. SH may have approved your D, but you are still emotionally attached to her. And because she keeps coming back to you as a 'safety net' means she still loves you too, but you may not be giving her what she needs to keep her there.
You are right that she is a needy person, like my H. And she is probably very immature (considering she needs attention from OM all the time). Have you given her attention? Have you told her she is the hottest babe since the beginning of time? Have you showered her with love and affection? (Which is what most women who are attention getters want ALL the time--they have to be center of attention and be doted on all the time...Maybe your W and my H should hook up, because he tried to shower me with gifts ALL the time and place me on an extremely high pedastal but got mad whenever he felt I didn't appreciate it. I am just an old fashioned girl that like simple things in life and want to life partner, not a valet...My H didn't understand that I just wanted him and not things.) If your W needs to be the focal point everyday, then you may have to be willing to do the work in keeping her in the spotlight. Because her A with OM are short-lived only tells me she just want to be doted on and may be a bit overwhelming for those OM to handle. Not sure they are dumping her or she dumping them, but either way, the OM are just keeping her occupied until she gets what she wanted from you.
Now, Starman, you have been a great supporter of me, and I just want to be frank with you, hope you don't mind. When you went into Plan B, you were not firm enough. I think I read somewhere that you allowed her to come over or that you two communicated at times. It you do Plan B go cold turkey on her. You will be amazed at how going cold turkey can really make a person remember what they had. When my H went cold turkey on me, at first I was the one trying to call him and beg for him to come back, until after several weeks of therapy I realized I didn't need him, but that I wanted him. So I went cold turkey in January on him. After 4 weeks of no communication, now he is calling me and on Valentine Day we actually had a very good conversation that was open and honest. Whether we get back together, don't know, but I know I can move on living day to day not worrying what he might do or say about me. I am picking up more hobbies to do and am keeping myself busy.
You asked if there is a scripture on divorce and separation...I tell you, when my H left in November I pulled out the Good Book and found those scriptures and here you go:
Matthew 19:5-10 5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? 8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. 10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
1 Corinthians 7:10-12, 14-16
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. 15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace. 16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
Eventhough you say your wife was from the church, she is now like a sheep that lost her way. She is the 1 of the 99 sheep that Jesus had to go out and bring back. According to the Bible you are in the right to D due to her adultery. But make sure that when you D it is for the right decisions. Because you don't want to have in the back of your mind on the 'What ifs...?' When you approve the D (knowing she is the one filing, understand that) that your emotions are totally exhausted and there truly is NOTHING left for her...that you are well spent. I just think she used you as a safety net, because you allowed it to happen. If you kept communication with just the children in mind or business affairs only, she would have realized there was no safety net and that you were outta her life.
Now on her filing...I know she has filed and stopped then refiled, ask yourself how serious is she in doing this? Discern the situation...Is she threatening you because she want you to change and give her what she wants? And ask her, "What the hell do you want from me?" but in a peaceful manner. Remember you and I have 5 year old spouses...you have to almost talk to them in that manner. "Little Susie, why are you upset? What can I do to help? Let me kiss your boo boo away..."
These are just my thoughts, and what I am going through right now. Yes my H is the one who implemented Plan B but I am starting to understand why after 3 months next week. I think he wants us to move to Plan A, but I am being a little reserved in that manner...to be honest, I kinda like the peace and quiet and have gone back to my living single routine of just enjoying life. Doing my hobbies and having a quiet moment at home watching MY favorite programs without relinquishing to my H's favorite programs.
Just my thoughts...I believe in you Starman, so do what you see is best. I know no matter what your decision you will be A-OK!
Nomoregames
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Thanks nomoregames!
Your post has got me thinking. Here's what I know.
My STBXW: She's very depressed and lonely. Part of her wants to try and fix things. Thinks she's messed things up too bad to make right again. Has been so overwhelming to virtually all the OM she has been with that she has chased them away. Tells me that she is hurting very deeply because she doesn't have the kids as much as she wants, yet doesn't see or even talk to them on the phone NEARLY as much as she could. After our reconciliation fell apart she has shown no initiative towards fixing our relationship. She has NO trust in her own ability to make good decisions, even about small things.
What I THINK I know: She is looking for the kind of relationship with OM that she had with me, not just a casual one. The last couple of relationships she has been in were not PA. She is using the issue about custody as a reason to stay mad at me so she can justify continuing her behavior.
What I don't know: Even though I said that she knows that having relationships with OM even at this stage is wrong, to be honest I don't KNOW this. Does she think it's okay, or is it the FOG? Does she think that having the kids around OM (which she has done on a couple of occasions)is okay and not harmful to them, or is that the FOG too?
What I know about ME: I have been clear to her that I won't even consider trying to reconcile unless she agrees to stop pursuing other relationships and NC with anyone she has been involved with before. She has refused to do this. I am VERY doubtful that she would be able to change her ways enough for me to trust her again. My desire to WANT to try and reconcile if she came to me is hanging by an EXTREMELY thin thread. If I don't stay in plan B and then had to deal with another one of her relationships again it would be the end of it. I am no longer enthusiastic about wanting to save our M, but would give it all I had if she came to me willing to do the things I would need from her to get the ball rolling. The thought of getting a D and being done with this is pleasant in a lot of ways.
What I THINK I know about me: If she was as willing and committed to saving our M as many of the FWS on this board, I would be able to get past everything that has happened and be happy with her.
What I don't know: If her values towards marriage, fidelity, and what's acceptable behavior as far as the kids are concerned have really changed that much and she's not just "lost" right now, would I be able to live with that? This is a TOUGH one for me.
The only little,nagging doubt I have is wondering if I could be more pro-active or do something else that would ease her fears enough to want to approach me. Is there something I'm missing?
Unless I could be shown something really compelling I don't think I have any choice but to stay in plan B and go forward with the D. Her continued behavior makes it too risky for me to try anything else.
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Starman – sorry for the delay in responding. I’ve been too busy lately to do much more than just read to try and stay “caught up.â€
Okay, what I have to say may be difficult to hear, but I think it needs to be said and you will have to process it in light of the full knowledge of what’s been going on to decide what applies and what doesn’t apply.
First, while I cannot “know†your wife’s heart (only God knows it for certain), I can tell you that “by her fruits†she seems to be making a statement about what she thinks about her faith. That statement would be “me first†and “I will NOT obey God simply because He tells me to obey Him†and “God didn’t really mean what He said.†This is the exact same lie, repackaged and recycled yet again, that Eve believed in the Garden of Eden.
So, one of two truths would seem to be relevant. First, your wife had a “saving faith†at some point and is backslidden and lost in the enticing tendrils of sin, or second, she never had a “saving faith†and is one of those who we are warned about in the Parable of the Sower.
Either way, her actions against you and your marriage are adulterous and “rise to the level†of what Jesus called “marital unfaithfulness.†That is the ONE reason that Jesus stated as a “valid reason†for divorce among Christians. It is the “last choice,†but it is a valid choice when the other person will not repent, will not receive forgiveness, and will not “leave their life of sin.†Short of that, IF the unfaithful spouse is a Christian, or will live with you as a “biblical wife,†then you should NOT divorce. You should forgive and rebuild and grow together.
If she is an unbeliever, and her actions would certainly be consistent with that possibility, then IF she wants to leave the marriage, you are to let her go because you really should not have been “unevenly yoked†to begin with.
Understand that in each case, God’s desire is to use the circumstances in your life to mold and shape you both so that you will bring honor and glory to His name. That does NOT mean that life is without problems, temptations, trials, and tribulations. It is in HOW we respond to those things that honor or dishonor is brought upon God by us. It is in HOW we respond to those things that we provide an “example†of how a Christian “should†respond to God’s commands and to adverse circumstances as a witness to others around them.
So let’s turn to a little more specifics related to your statements and questions.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand all the practical reasons for behaving as a married person until you sign the paperwork on your D papers.
What I was wanting to learn more about is how this is treated from a scriptural standpoint. When is your M over from God's perspective? Is there a definitive answer or are there different interpretations? When is it okay for a person to move on? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ve already commented on this, but let me try to add some Scriptural framework, if I may, that you might find helpful.
Let me begin by quoting from the Introduction to Magnificent Marriage by Gordon MacDonald;
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“This book begins with a simple premise: marital success begins with commitment, is sustained by discipline, and is evaluated by its productivity in making human beings something better than what they were when they entered into the relationship.
For the most part, the world’s way of thinking could not disagree more! It resists commitment that is not personally convenient; it ridicules discipline; and it prefers to accumulate things rather than develop persons.
If this is true, a strong marriage is going to be plain, pure hard work. Such a marriage is going to cut across the grain of a culture which mocks long-term relationships. The incredible irony is that in allowing the concept of marriage to weaken, our modern community saps its own fibrous strength. More and more society pays the bill for the very thing it is aiding and abetting. Look with me at a few random illustrations.
Alvin Toffler spoke as a social prophet when he wrote his book Future Shock a few years ago. He charted the pressure-rate that was rising in western society as people push themselves to step up the pace of life. Everything moves at increasing speed, he said, and the result is that it becomes impossible to establish any relationship which is both meaningful and enduring. He observed that people today not only utilize throwaway products, but they make throwaway friends. Thus one of the results of life today is that we have a mentality that produces throwaway marriages.
A few years ago it was customary to look at Hollywood and joke about the temporal nature of the movie stars’ marriages. Remember the story about the two children at the playground whose mothers were in films. One said to the other, “My father can beat up your father.†The second responded, “Don’t be silly; my father is your father.†The tragedy behind that joke is that what was once true about Hollywood is now reasonably true about the social structure of the entire nation. Toffler is right; we live in a society which accepts the concept of a throwaway marriage.â€
Continuing with Gordon MacDonald sheds more light on God’s design and purpose in establishing marriage in the Garden of Eden;
“The stretching of one’s wildest imagination could not produce a picture of what the Garden of Eden must have been like. We have some basic facts; beyond that the whole thing defies the ability of words to express its reality. The garden was Adam’s world when God created him.
Adam had everything. He lived in a creative order in which nothing made waves. His work was the work of discovery and exploration. It was the opportunity to use “the stuff of creation†to make things, identify things, and join things together in an infinite number of combinations and varieties which could in turn glorify the prime Creator, God himself.
Adam had everything but a special human relationship. He could look upward, in a sense, and have relationship with God. He could, in effect, look downward at the animals and have a relationship with them. But something was missing! God put that “something†into words when he said, “It is not good for man to live alone.â€
The significance of those words is highlighted by the fact that God said the opposite thing about all that he had created. After each phase of creation, the Bible says that God saw that it was good. The word “good†seems to imply the idea of being complete and whole. Each thing in creation was good, but there was one thing that was not good, and that was Adam’s aloneness.
Aloneness is the most hostile idea in the universe. It is a word of isolation, and it is alien to the nature of God. God is not alone. Even though he is one, the Bible goes out of its way to point out the fact that God communes with himself. It would be too simple to suggest that God talks to himself; anyone could do that. But God in his triune personality communes with himself: his self-communion is thoroughly satisfying. But man is alone, God says, and therefore he does not have the opportunity for such communion.
It is worthwhile to meditate on Adam’s predicament. He has everything imaginable at his disposal: complete command over the world of nature, the world of animals. He has something to occupy his time, and he has an infinity of things to explore. But one thing is missing: he is alone.
The aloneness is highlighted by what I believe is a deliberate act in the order of things in Scripture.
Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air; and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. The man gave names to all cattle, and to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for the man there was not found a helper fit for him. (Genesis 2:19,20)
I am captivated by that exercise. What is God helping Adam to see in this strange parade? Is God not approaching the doctrine of relationship from a negative perspective? He is out to convince Adam that there is nothing in the universe that can quite assuage the void in his heart for communion. God must have paraded a type of horse past Adam. Adam may have said to himself, “There is a fine specimen of animal-great for a trot on Saturday afternoon. But while we understand each other on basic matters of riding, we do not commune together.†Adam may have seen feet-warming possibilities in the furry kitty-cat, but no communion! Perhaps he mused for a moment on the best friend of man, the dog. Hunting? Yes. Communion? No way! What Adam needed was a helper: someone to come alongside and share the challenge of life. Someone who would feel as he felt, exude joy at discovery, problem-solve with him in a time of puzzlement, create with him offspring who would follow in their steps. There was no one like that in the garden.
I’m quite confident that God brought Adam to a complete sense of relational vacuum in order to demonstrate dramatically to him that there was nothing in the world which could meet his human need to have a relationship. He was created to work best under relational conditions.
It might be well to note the fact that Adam was the perfect picture of individuality that day. You are reading the description of a man who fulfilled the fantasies of every person who has wanted to escape to a South Pacific island and be alone. Adam had it all: he was history’s most enviable individual, the original nature-boy with not so much as one irritating mosquito. But he was alone, and God saw that it was not good.
The 21st and 22nd verses of Genesis 2 are among the most mysterious to me in all the Bible. I know what they say, but I keep thinking that there are some ponderous and precious truths behind them. For example, why a deep sleep? Is that simply for the purposes of surgical anesthesia? Or is it important that the production of a woman be a work entirely of God, having nothing to do with the man at all? Woman would be decidedly inferior to man if it could have been demonstrated that Adam participated in the creation of his wife, Eve. But he didn’t and she wasn’t.
Then again, I wonder what God was doing when he took something out of Adam and used it to create a woman. Are we being introduced to an amazing fact here? Was God, if effect, dividing Adam into two? Is it possible that the original Adam was more than what we presently mean by the word “man� I am inclined to be comfortable with that possibility.
Recreating the possible scene leads me to think that the original Adam, a kind of man-woman, is now two: a man and a woman. Adam now has a counterpart with whom he can commune, a helper of his own mind set. And that is why he would cry out when he awoke from the sleep,
This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of man.
The word “woman†in the Hebrew is a complementary word to man. It hints at the idea that the two together form an even larger whole.
Genesis 2:24 has to be removed in one sense from the preceding verse. It is a verse of commentary on that which has gone before. The writer, whom I believe to be Moses, says under the enlightenment of God’s inspiring Spirit that these are the events through which Eve and Adam met. That is why (therefore):
A man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one Flesh.
The author is actually explaining a present-day phenomenon thousands of years later than when he was writing. He is telling the reader why there is a constant desire on the part of a man to leave the family in which he has grown up and to seek a member of the opposite sex. In each generation a man recognizes in a woman his true counterpart. He seeks to cleave to her and return to the “one-flesh†experience which Adam enjoyed when God gave him and Eve to each other.
I’d like to suggest that there are some even deeper secrets in this text. Moses sees the marriage relationship as a progressive one: two people become one flesh; it is a relational process, the product of cleaving. And this generates a number of theological ideas.
First, Adam was excited about his counterpart, Eve, and he was one flesh with her in every way: intellectually and spiritually. There were no secrets between them, and they could discern each other’s thoughts. Their one-flesh experience was complete. They did not need to communicate via words; they could enjoy a nonverbal communication which we can scarcely imagine. They could share instantly because, not having sinned, they had no shame, nothing to hide.
When Moses writes his “therefore,†he is talking about a later period of time in which there was sin. Now, after the garden setting, there were barriers and obstacles to relationships. Now, a man had to do something that Adam did automatically: he had to cleave. “To cleave†is rooted in the idea of an adhesive; something has to be stuck together. If two things have to be stuck together, it implies that they would not originally have come together unless there was a glue to hold them together. What has changed?
Sin! Rebellion against God has upset the whole design of human living. Sin creates a false hunger not for communion and relationship but for individuality of a destructive sort. Now, in this day, Moses writes, a man has to leave, cleave, and progressively he becomes one flesh.
I believe that the phrase “one flesh†means decidedly more than just the sexual act. The sexual act is just one way in which the two become one flesh. The result of cleaving in relationship is that two human beings progressively overcome the barriers that sin has erected and recover more and more of the one-flesh experience.
Where have these observations brought us? To the suggestion that marriage in Genesis 2:24 is a faith-commitment to recover as much as possible of what communing man had before the fall into sin. Biblical marriage in its most profound sense is a stepping off in to the recovery of the original state of humanness, when men and women were not exploiters of one another but helpers of one another.
Most people are content to retrieve only the physical experience: to be one flesh on the physical plane only. But the very absence of satisfaction, resulting in the quest for more lovers and varieties of experience, is testimony to the fact that one-flesh means that communion between persons is not only physical but also mental, emotional, and spiritual.
We are not being incurable romantics when we observe a happily married couple who have been wed for thirty-five years and say of them, “Each seems to know so much of the time what the other is even thinking.†We may be simply observing that men and women who have made deep, abiding commitments to one another may indeed be in the process of becoming more and more one flesh, that they do experience a tiny piece of the kind of communion and communication which Adam and Eve had before the fall and sadly sacrificed in their rebellion against God.
What was a natural flow of communal process before sin must be a deliberate process after the fall. And Moses outlines it to us in three simple verbs: leaving, cleaving, and becoming one flesh. My friend Walter Trobisch has done more than anyone I know to outline the significance of these three verbs. He has suggested that leaving, something Adam didn’t have to do, is that act of breaking away from the original ties of parents. It is a negative ceremony which is important.
Leaving must be done not only geographically; it must be done psychologically. And that is exactly what many young people in the process of getting married fail to do. Socially, they may enter into a wedding ceremony, but psychologically they are not prepared to make the great leap of faith into commitment to another person. When crises arise, or great decisions must be made, or resources must be provided to meet the needs of and emergency, by instinct they look over their shoulders to their parents. What they have failed to realize is that leaving should have meant that they cut off the authority and lines of provision in order to begin an entirely new family.
Those who question the value of a wedding ceremony today miss the point that relationships must have a psychological starting point. Relationships which are ill-defined breed many things, including trouble. The value of a ceremony is that it drives a stake in to a point of time and says, “Here, at this moment, loyalties and authorities changed hands. Things are different now.â€
Only those who have the opportunity to treat troubled marriages know how serious is the problem of leaving. When one member of a new marriage keeps looking back at former parental ties, the entire new relationship becomes uneasy. The husband of a wife who wants to continue cultivating a kind of emotional authority relationship with her parents will feel inadequate as a leader. The wife of a husband who has failed to dissolve his ties with parents feels insecure in her ability to trust her husband. A study of the biblical teaching of a child’s relationship to his parents seems to indicate that we are required to honor our parents for a lifetime. To obey parents, however, seems to be a command which changes at the point of a child’s marriage.
Just as destructive are parents who will not let their children leave. Unable to relinquish their influence over their children, they unconsciously weave ties of obligation about the lives of their offspring. “Why not come and live in the basement of our home until your bank account is large enough for you to afford a home of your own?†one parent says. Another insists that the families get together every Friday evening. A third directs a constant stream of gifts and cash into the new marriage. Often there is a series of unmentioned strings tied to these offerings, and they are usually pulled just as the couple begins to seek independence.
Many young couples who have visited with me before their marriage have smiled at my counsel concerning their ties with parents. But a year after the marriage has been sealed, the smiles turn to frowns, and still another year later, the frowns to tears of frustration. Leaving can be a problem after all.
If the word leaving is a negative word of parting from former obligations, cleaving is a positive one. It symbolizes the exercise of asserting the new relationship and responsibilities. It is a word describing a continuum, a growth experience. In marriage one is always cleaving-holding on and advancing against forces which would seek to divide the loyalties and fidelities that marriage has to have. I want to emphasize this progressive thrust. Looking back to our observations of Ken and Carol, one can begin to see that this was something they misunderstood. Like many, they thought the love they shared on their wedding day was sure guarantee that there would be love in the fifth year. But it wasn’t, and no one seems to have impressed them with that fact before it was too late. In one sense, one can cleave only enough for today, and then he must cleave for tomorrow on that day. That we have successfully cleaved today in our relationship will certainly make cleaving tomorrow a bit easier, for now we have accumulated experience. On the other hand, it does not allow us to relax and cleave less tomorrow.
The more one cleaves the more “one-fleshed†he becomes. Now it is important to remember that he can become physically one flesh with his wife virtually anytime the two wish. This of course is the sexual act. But the “one-flesh†of Genesis 2:24 is more than something physical. It is descriptive of the full dimensional return of woman to man. That means that one-flesh will be not only physical, but mental, emotional, and spiritual. Together a couple will progressively tear down the barriers which sin has created, and love their way to wholeness. Cleaving is the process; one-fleshedness is the result.
The world has achieved much insight in this business of cleaving. Rarely, however, has it managed to put it all together. Some feel that cleaving on the emotional level is adequate; others are content to cleave on the intellectual level, the level of the mind. Christians would like to emphasize their cleaving on the level of the spirit, that area in which we formulate our values and convictions and hopefully act upon them. There are many who are content merely to cleave on the physical level; in fact they usually end up cleaving to many different people if they are content with only the physical or the emotional.
There is a deepening process of cleaving which we must investigate in full. Set in the context of what biblical data I can turn up, it seems to begin with our emotions, move to our intellect, and finally to our spirit.
The process of cleaving on these three levels is symbolized in the physical act. This side of heaven, only on the physical level will we ever be totally one-flesh. On the other three, we can only hope to achieve deeper and deeper experiences of one-fleshedness. It is a lifelong pursuit, this business of the pursuit of one flesh. And that is what the remaining chapters of this book are about-the pursuit and exploration of becoming one flesh on four different levels:
First, the level of the emotions: Romance Secondly, the level of the mind: Companionship Thirdly, the level of the spirit: Servanthood And finally as a result, the level of the physical: Sexual communion.
(Gordon MacDonald, Magnificent Marriage, pp. 3-11)†-------------------------------------------------
Starman, there is a passage of Scripture that most people think relates to Divorce. It does, but it is also a tremendous exposition of Jesus’ high view of marriage. I won’t go into that in detail for now, but let’s look at the passage and perhaps make a few brief comments.
Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?†“Haven’t you read,†he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.â€
“Why then,†they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her on her way?â€
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.†(Matthew 19:3-9 NIV)
Starman, a “one flesh†condition exists whether we “like it or not.†It was established by God and the fact that it is something that is a mystery to our human minds does not negate the fact of its existence. We DON’T understand what Adam was totally like when God created him, but given our “male propensities,†it’s not hard to imagine that all the emotions, etc. that God created in man took some patient teaching by God to get the “Man†to understand his “position,†as Gordon MacDonald was speaking about. The Jews, in their heavily patriarchal society, perverted God’s design for marriage to the point where women could be “divorced†and cast aside for virtually ANY reason that the man could use to say that his wife “no longer pleased him.†The discussion that Jesus had with the Pharisees was a strong defense of marriage, a strong protection for women, and a “calling to account†to those who would twist and bend Scripture for their own sinful purposes. God is NOT interested in what “pleases†us. “IF you LOVE ME, OBEY my commands†is what God is interested in, and expects from those who claim Him as their Lord and Savior.
So, where does all this leave YOU and your marriage right now? As always, with decisions that you will have to make concerning your marriage. God HAS granted you the right, if it becomes necessary for you, to divorce your wife because she HAS committed marital infidelity (sexual unfaithfulness). BUT, the great caution here is that there be no “rush to divorce.†Everything possible must be tried to achieve repentance on her part. IF there is repentance, THEN the “greater command†of God takes precedence whereby we are to FORGIVE and attempt to reconcile and build a marriage founded upon “servanthood†of each other and obedience by each to God’s commands and God’s roles for husband’s and wives.
These ARE difficult times that “test our very soul.†That is why I strongly urge you to be in God’s Word daily, to rest in God’s direction and will, especially while you are in the middle of the “storm tossed†raging sea and can’t see land. With one word Jesus calmed the seas and instructed His disciples on their “lack of faith.†Use that little “mustard seed†of faith and hold fast to Philippians 4:13 and Psalm 23. LET God be the guide and your strength. You are NOT walking this path alone.
God bless.
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Foreverhers,
I so enjoy reading your posts.You are so spiritually enlightening and positive in all that you write.
Thank you so much for the unending effort, care and love that you so skillfully exhibit in all your posts. Others may give my mind direction, you always give my soul inspiration and hope.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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ForeverHers,
No apology necessary. Thank you for taking the time to respond, it helps me more than I can say.
I have really just begun to study the Bible. I attend a study class, but still don't know where to turn for specific teachings on issues that pertain to my situation.
As I learn to put more of my trust in God, I have begun to see how he works in my life. I am getting better at being able to find the messages he sends me. It's still hard at times to not take over myself, but that is because I don't have total confidence in my relationship with him yet. It does get stronger everyday, though.
Thank you again. I may very well be bugging you again in the near future, if you don't mind!
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