Okay.....I have my helmet on....I am ready for your 2x4's.

This is what happened. He did come over, but not until 11:00 pm. I let him in. He sat down on the couch, the kids were in bed, and I said look, this isn't working. You've been having an affair with OW for 6 months! 6 months I've been in pain, because I love you. He said "I love you too Caren" I said "No, I don't mean the "I'll always love you" stuff you always say to me" He said "No, Caren, I love you." I said "Do you love me enough to give up OW?" He didn't answer.....I repeated the question "Do you love me enough to give up OW?" I said "If you don't, then you have to honor what I said in the letter, you have to let me remove myself from this chaos, you have to let me get on with my life, and I can't do that having daily contact with you." I said "I know you didn't mean for any of this to happen, I know that you didn't mean to fall in love with OW" He said "I'm not in love with her", I said "Oh, I think that you are" He said "No, I'm not" I said "Do you love me enough to give her up?" He said "And then what, have nothing?" I said "If you give her up, and never have any contact with her again, then you don't have nothing, you have the chance to begin a new life with your family." I said "I know I've hurt you, I know you are afraid.....But what you don't know is the pain that I've endured for the last 6 months, it's killing me WH, and it has to come to an end." I said "The things that you said to each other on that tape, those horrible things you said about me.....that you never should have been with me, those things really hurt....but do you want to know what hurts the most? That you're making me a liar. You know I don't lie, and you're telling her that we have not been having sex, you're making me a liar, I might be a lot of things, but I've never lied to you, and I've never lied about you to anyone, that hurts a lot."

I reached over and put my hand on his heart and I said "Does it still beat for me?" I said "You know how much I love you" He said "I know" and I said "There were so many things that I never told you, things that I felt but never said, how proud I am of you, of how smart you are, how much I respect you....I should have said those things, but I never did." He said "Maybe you should have." I said "I absolutely should have, I guess I thought you should already know....but you're not a mind reader."

I said "I worship the ground you walk on." He said "No you don't" I said "Why do you say that?" He said "Because you make me miserable" I said "How? What do I do that makes you miserable?" He said "By not talking to me." I said "Why do you think that is?" "Why did you call me 28 times the other morning? Didn't you think that was a little excessive?" He said "I don't know" I said "I think you do know, it made you miserable not talking to me, because you love me." You keep saying that you'll call me if you need to talk to me about Brooklyn, but none of the times you've called have been anything about Brooklyn, so that's not the reason you're calling me.

I moved closer to him, and looked into his eyes, and said "Do you want me to be with someone else? Is that what you want?" He didn't answer. I said "Do you want me to be with another man? Do you want another man raising your daughter?" He started to get tears in his eyes. I said "Do you want me to be with someone else?" He said "No....I don't".

I said "WH, I don't want the marriage we had." He said "What?" I said "I don't want the marriage we had, I want something new, something better, something that will make us both happy and I will promise you right now, that the changes you've seen in me are permanent, I didn't change these things for you, I changed them for me, and they are permanent, things will never again be the way they were before."

I said "Now you have some decisions to make, and I will give you one week to think about it, if you choose that you no longer want to have a life with me, I'll file the divorce papers myself, because I have to move forward with my life with or without you." "I will give you this week to think, long and hard about what you want, is that fair?" I said "I won't shut you out for this week, I will talk to you when you call, and I will see you if you come over, but at the end of that week, I will need a decision from you." I said "WH, when things were good with us they were really good." He rubbed his chest...I said "What's wrong?" He said "I've been having chest pains for the last couple of days" I said "That's anxiety". Before he left I hugged him, and he hugged me back, and he kissed me, I whispered I love you in his ear." and he walked out the door. I locked it, and then he knocked on it again, I opened the door and he said "I love you too" HE HASN'T TOLD ME I LOVE YOU IN 6 FRIGGIN MONTHS.

I'm not holding out any false hope, I've blown this plan B to smithereens. He has a week, if he can't decide to comply with my letter in that week and try to make our marriage work, then I will go back to plan B, save the money and file for divorce.

I don't know where this is going to lead, but I know this is the first heart to heart conversation I've probably EVER had with him in all the 12 years we've been together.

As I said I hold no false hope, the ball is in his court, he can choose his family or he can choose the OW, either way, I will continue with my life.

-Caren

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Caren,

No 2x4. You broke plan B with a good execution of showing the WS what life w/b like without you. You sailed right past all those potential WS' babble before he even had a chance to utter it. You probably left him speechless. LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The point is that you said what you mean and meant it. Now you have set a new deadline. This coming week will be long and hard. But with your renewed strength, you will survive.

I am proud of you. Plan B is not for the fainthearted yet, when applied, look at how it strengthens and empowers the BS. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You may want to collapse now. Your adrenaline needs a break. Get some rest. Now you get to sit back and watch.

Your post read like an oscar performance. Loved it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

take care,
L.

W
o
w

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here comes the 2x4...

I said "Now you have some decisions to make, and I will give you one week to think about it, if you choose that you no longer want to have a life with me, I'll file the divorce papers myself, because I have to move forward with my life with or without you." "I will give you this week to think, long and hard about what you want, is that fair?" I said "I won't shut you out for this week, I will talk to you when you call, and I will see you if you come over, but at the end of that week, I will need a decision from you."

YOU will file for divorce??? Are you sure? If you dont then you will lose your credibility.

Does this mean end of plan B? You are now going to talk to this man?

Caren...go back to plan B...talk to him ONLY AFTER end of that one week. WH has just got you.

Now he knows that you are breakable...worst...you threat with the plan D which you wont do at the end of that one week...this means your words dont mean a thing again.

WH score one point in this arguement.

Go back to total darkness...you still have a chance to win this battle...do it right

Take care

Zizzy-

Yes, I will file for a divorce. I will borrow the money from someone, and I will file on him if that's his decision, I will file, and I will re-institute Plan B.

I'm not screwing around with this anymore. I gave him his choices. He's a grown man, and he needs to choose. He never thought the word divorce would come out of my mouth, I've fought it for so long.

Now I've told him, that I have to get on with my life, I can't be in this chaos anymore. He still has to meet my Plan B conditions by the end of the week I've given him....if not, then fine, he's made his decision. I will not share him....I won't do it.

So yep, I'm serious. No he didn't smooth talk his way around my Plan B.....he bulldozed it, so since it was inevitable that I see him, I thought I'd tell him exactly how I felt. I've spent the entire plan A not saying a word, not telling him I was in pain..........I felt that he should know.

He looked kinda shell shocked as he walked out my door, and I'm so used to him not telling me he loves me, that It didn't even phase me that he didn't say it, but it surprised the crap out of me that he came back, knocked on the door just to tell me "I love you too".

He wasn't being manipulative, hell, I didn't give him much of a chance.

So, well see how it goes, but I will stick to my word.

-Caren

Good to see the spunk in you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You sure you can't go back to plan B then see him again in one week for the result. NC letter is your ticket. If he don't give you the letter then he is still waffling in the mud.

Anyway this is your call. Just my opinion that you should continue with plan B and dont break for anything until he put the NC letter into your hand. Maybe a bit extreme but i have seen too many false recovery and WS tricks.

I hope the best outcome for you. We need some success story.

Zizzy-

He actually told me last night, "Caren, I've tried really hard not to care about you, but I can't seem to do it."

This was not him asking to come back, this was all me, laying it out on the table for him.

I think the fact that my friend, who happens to be male being over at my house was what sent him over the edge.....he was being crazy yesterday.

He's told me before that he doesn't love the OW...whatever, I'm not going to sit around and debate him about whether or not he loves her, he says he doesn't....so okay whatever. That makes no difference. It's her, or it's his family.

I'm actually not sure what I should be doing during this week I've given him, I guess I'll just play it by ear. I'm not going to hound him, I'm not going to ask him if he's decided over and over again, I'm going to meet him out for dinner or something Thursday evening and we can talk about it then, he can tell me his decision, and I'll do what I have to do from there.

He's not a great master of the english language, so I will have to help him with the NC letter.

As for the rest of it, I guess I'll burn that bridge when I get there.

-Caren

Caren:

I had to stop reading your post about what happened last night. My heart started racing. I was having a flashback.

I am not kidding you! I had almost the exact same conversation with my FWH after I broke my PLAN B three days after it started.

He said the exact same things to me. It is the standard CAKE-EATER' S SCRIPT!!

I would say Don't get your hopes up about this ending soon! I think you have a great chance at recovery. However, I think you will need to stay in PLAN B longer and you will need to get vigilant about STAYING DARK!!! This is how MORTARMAN counseled me through this. Where is he? I think he will agree with me.

Your WH is addicted to the OW. It's not about logic. It's not about love. It's about his addiction to the feeling that the OW gives him. You forgot that you were talking to a foggy alien last night.

Remember this: Once he gets back in contact with her, all that you spoke with him about last night will go out the window. He will be under the influence of her drug once again.

I disagree with your decision to divorce him if he doesn't come around in a week. That is a demand. That is a LB. It defeats the whole purpose of PLAN B and the MB System to pose such a threat.

I would GO BACK INTO PLAN B and try to stay there. This is a process that takes time, unfortunately. He has to feel the pain of this, reach his bottom in this addiction. It will not happen as soon or as fast as we want it too. He needs to spend time with her alone without contact with you. If you set it up to take only a week, he will fail and you will lose out on recovering your marriage.

He is following the same script that my FWH did....

Believe me, I sat with him and had the exact same conversation. My FWH said the same things.... I have been there, Caren.

Listen to me.....

Mimi-

I am listening. But I won't retract what I said last night. He has a week, if his decision is not to stay with his family, then I'm back in plan B. It will take me a while to come up with the $$ to file on him anyway....but file I will.

I have to at least stay true to what I said to him, he has this week repreave (sp?) from Plan B, and then if he doesn't move his car out of her garage, if he doesn't end contact, if he doesn't write the NC letter, if he doesn't agree to MC, then, he's back to Plan B again, and I'll change my damn phone number so he can't talk to me.

I understand you Mimi...I do, and I'm not saying my case will be different. I am only giving him a week...........that's not much time in the grand scheme of things, and then I will go completely dark on him.

I don't want a false recovery, I don't want to go through this time and time again. I WILL FILE ON HIM.

I have fought the "D" word from day one, I told him the 1st day he said it, that I wouldn't agree to it...............he never thought he'd hear those words come out of my mouth. But if he screws with me, I will file.

I'm done....I'm done feeling this way, I'm done with his cake eating.....DONE!

He knows I'm serious, and if my speech goes in one ear and out the other, fine. If it all goes out the window when he sees OW, fine. He knows where I stand, and I'm standing firm.

**** everyone in my life wants me to divorce him, I'm sure that they'd start a collection to get me the money to do it LMAO.

I'm not playing around. I prayed before I gave him this speech, and I also had several other people praying for my marriage, I think I am guided by God, I don't know what his plan for me is, all I know is that I will make it, with or without him.

I'm not trying to contradict the MB theories, I know they're right on the money. But the things I said to my WH, I had to say......I've kept them inside too long.

Now, as I said, the balls in his court.....let's see which way he bounces it.

-Caren

**edited to add: I have to get in the shower, today is my last day of group therapy, and I'm running late, per usual. I'll be back on when I get home, around 4-4:30 EST.

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

I understand you going back into PLAN B. This is probably what you will need to do. I don't understand the need to file for divorce.

**********BIG SIGH**************

I am of the school that people need to learn all of this for themselves. I can 100% GUARANTEE what will happen next here with Caren as can most of you. It is ok Caren....to each their own. We understand where you are coming from and what is going through your mind. We have been there.

YOu have to take 100% responsibility for all that happens to you in your life. YOU are an intelligent woman and have been given extremely good advice here and yet YOU CHOOSE to do it this way. Once again, it is ok and we all support you. There will be people here when the "fall" comes, just please remember that. You have support here no matter how this turns out. This is tough, and you can only learn here from YOUR own decisions. I am hoping that you "LEARN IT" this time, but that may not happen. You may indeed die a thousand deaths before you "get it". We still love you and support you. Goodluck girl. We are all wishing the best for you.

LM

Lets not think about divorce yet. Take sometime to think and be calm when you decide.

You will say a few more times that you are DONE with WH before you are actually done with him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Caren:

I'm sighing along with Lemonman. You're coming to MB and wanting to do it your way. SIGH!!

I have one additional question, though. I can't help it?

How come you are being so wishy-washy? Your WH may know that you have this style, too.

Caren, weren't you insisting that you don't believe in D and now you are giving this one week before filing for D?

YOU ARE GOING FROM ONE EXTREME TO THE OTHER. Do your realize this?

It may be important to try not to be ruled by your emotions. Get stronger by learning to think before you react.

I know. Easier said than done.

Caren, I'm not gonna predict what will come next, but I am worried you're in too much of a hurry.

That's okay, it's your choice. Just remember, it often takes weeks or months before losing the OP becomes preferable to losing the BS.

The balance tips when they are truly without you and when some of the affair chemistry mellows.

Your H is wallowing in affair chemistry still, and his brain isn't going to work on the schedule you've demanded. You can't dictate that any more than you can keep him from coming to your house.

GC

Caren, this has all happened in less than one week. In my opinion, you should re-read the whole of your thread. Then, have a gin and tonic, a few deep breaths and give yourself some time. Everything is done and said with such haste. You are up, down, in, out, over, under and basically all over the place. One of your days is equal to one of my weeks! Try (!) and slow down. TT

Caren I wish you the best with your choice last night. I have been there before and it does not work. That is how I have failed to Plan B before twice. WH is usually the one asking for a week or a month, etc and then forgets all about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your WH is addicted to the OW. It's not about logic. It's not about love. It's about his addiction to the feeling that the OW gives him. You forgot that you were talking to a foggy alien last night.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What Mimi said above (I think it was mimi since I can not view the post while I type this) is so accurate in my experience at failing plan B. I even discussed Divorce with mine and that's when he swore he got the point and called family and friends crying so I would reconsider Div, etc. Not long after that I packed everything for him to get him out of the house again and he begged for 10 minutes. Big mistake! In those 10 minutes he got me involved in his fog again. He swore no contact and to give him a month to prove it. It has been 10 days so far and not a single one without contact with OW. He is not changing and I have to gather the strenght again to Plan B his behind again. I really hope I could stick to it this time and not fall for any of his tricks again by knowing better this time around. We will see what happens to me but I wish you the best with your choice from last night.

I just wish when I get there again and he asks again for " a certain time to fix things" instead of keeping contact during the time asked I could stay in the dark next time around until NC with OW is proven.

Love

Just a question from the curious...

How do decide when it is ok to leave plan B? After WS has proven they have stopped contact? How do they do that without communicating with you?

I'm just curious about the semantics about doing this, if your not having any contact how do you determine it is time to come out and start recovery?

Miker

Hi Caren,

I am an old lurker - seminewposter! Not Jonathan Livingston Seagull, Joanna L. Seagull!

You remind me so much of me, I follow your posts often. I KNOW and YOU KNOW that this breaks with MB concepts, but I can honestly say that I probable would have done the same thing.

Wrong or right, your story all makes a lot of sense to me. You want to save your M, if at all possible, your actions sounds so reasonable to someone who doesn't know about MB. Even your previous "freaking out" is a "normal" response to an awful situation.

Just listen to what others are saying, and be prepared. Every situation/everyone is different, this might work, but be prepared. Make new plans for Plan B, in case this doesn't work. You can still file when the time comes and even make plans for that, but DO NOT rush it.

Take this week to tighten up your Plan B, so you are still making progress yourself! If this works, great, if something else happens later (renewed contact w OP, or lack of recovery on his part) you will STILL have a PLAN. Think about a new mediator, think about future contact ideas for H and kids. Prepare a speech for kids so they will understand about you not talking to WH in future, if it comes again to that.

You now must think of yourself in Plan A again, for ONE more week. Not a big deal. So use it to your advantage-Make WH feel that coming back is really an option and although not an easy road, the right one, and you will help him over the bumps, if he will help you through the detour that he created.

THEN, be prepared to go to Plan B again, if that does not work. And this time, be really ready.

I know that I am repeating myself, but who knows. If he does everything right in the next week, great!! And afterward. It's the afterward that you may have to be ready for anything!!

I am so sorry that you are going through this. You ARE strong!! I respect and admire you very much, from what I have read in your posts. And it sounds like you also have a whole lot going for you and your M. I really believe that you are one of those that have a good chance at recovery.

Good Luck (although luck really isn't a major factor here),
JLS

Mimi,

I am here...and not very happy. You of all people know where Caren is headed. We can go back two years here, copy and paste your threads...and I can guarantee it will be almost word-for-word with what has happened...and what will happen.

Caren,

Here's the thing. While the conversation you had was GREAT...and you composed yourself well, that was a Plan A conversation. That conversation was supposed to happen BEFORE Plan B. What should have happened was that conversation last week, then a week to get hsi act straight...and then off to Plan B.

But there were two major things wrong with what you said...and then I'll get to where you are at now. You said after a week you will go to Plan B and divorce him. Huh? Is it Plan B, or divorce. The only exceptions I have seen on here are some people like me who filed just to get the custody hearing and protect the kids. All along, we said here and to our WSs that we were not divorcing them! But you just said you are divorcing him at the end of the week. Divorce is the nuclear option Caren. There is no wiggle room, and no return back. Unlike what I and others did with filing because of the kids, you have no recourse but to pursue divorce.

Now, you say "So what?" I will tell you. Your husband has been freaking out because he is a prime candidate for Plan B. You kept saying in your posts "I dont understand...he wants to OW...he doesnt love me..." Caren, you know by his actions that isnt true! The time to be worried was if you went to Plan B and he didnt care in the least. So, you KNOW why he called and came by. He doesnt want to lose you, he doesnt want a divorce.

But he, my dear, is addicted to the OW. He even said so. Remember him saying "Well, then what?" when you said he had to give up the OW. That is a man that is saying "If I give her up, how am I going to get the needs met that she is meeting. You didnt meet them before. I cant jsut give up cold turkey and TRUST you." This is an addiction Caren. And you fed it again last night.

That is why this week of reflection for him probably will not work. Why? Because he has still not had to give up the OW. So, you say...he will HAVE to at the end of the week, if he doesnt do it on his own. Because otherwise, I divorce him. Caren, this leads me to my second point.

You made a demand of him. You threatened him with divorce. He is an addict. Where do you think he will fall? Well, he could say "the heck with you...I dont believe you anyway...so go ahead." He could say "I am not going to have you threaten me and I am not cowtowing to your demands." Or he could say "Sure, okay...I'll get rid of her."

The first two mean he is gone...and you are filing. An just when you had your husband at the point of being able to make the decision for himself. And that is why even the third response wont work. Why? Because he is coming home and getting rid of the OW because you told him to, not because he made the decision to. And that will spell a huge problem for any recovery...if a true recovery even starts in the first place.

Demands never lead where you want them to. That is why they are one of the love busters. You gave him an ultimatum, and put your marriage on the line with it. And now, he doesnt believe you will follow through.

Sure, he is scared because he doesnt know for sure. But, he still doesnt have a need to change anything yet, because he has managed to give himself another week in the cake factory!

This is why Plan B has to be done and done well. You have now threatened to go straight from a great Plan A to a Plan D. Why no Plan B? Why? One week of it, and it was working PERFECTLY...and you just throw it in the trash. Why? All of the signs were it was working. Every call to your voicemail should have given you hope because you could see he was follwoing the Plan B script.

Your husband is textbook WS. look in Webster's dictionary under WS and Plan B...his picture is there! I havent seen a better situation or WS for Plan B. And you are blowing it!

The odds of an affair working out are not in their favor. But the odds of you issuing this demand on the heals of backing down from him are equally not as good.

I will sit back now holding my precious Plan B that you threw away. Many on here would love to have the opportunity you have with their WSs and wish their spouses would respond to Plan B like yours.

You had a great talk besides those things I mentioned. And this should have happened before. That talk shows even better that he is fully capable of having Plan B blow the affair apart and HIM making the decision to come hom on his own.

You sent him the PBL. It said what you were going to do, not what he had to do. It said that should he change his mind, that you would be there. But that you were pursuing this path for yourself.

Now, you have turned that upside down. Now, instead of you saying what you must do, you have demanded what he must do. That your future actions are dependent on his decisions. That he STILL holds the power here. That he will still feel he can manipulate this situation a little longer to get his cake. And what will happen is either he will continue to get his cake, or you will follow thru with the nuclear option. And either way, your marriage will move closer to being over...right as it is the closest it will ever get to being the marriage you always wanted.

So, I will be over here in the corner. I hope for your sake I am wrong and you beat the odds. Unfortunately, this MB stuff is almost never wrong. And all too often, BSs come back crying here with a post entitled "I blew it."

Isn't that right Mimi?? (Oh, the one thing that Mimi did do right even when she was blowing her Plan B's was that she never threatened divorce. So, she could always recover and go back to Plab again when she fell off the horse.)

In His arms.

MORTARMAN TO THE RESCUE!!!


What a load off of my shoulders!

Caren, listen to Mortarman. I credit his counseling to me during PLAN B as leading to my marital recovery. I TRIED to do exactly what he instructed me to do even when it didn't FEEL RIGHT. .

I learned well, didn't I Mortarman? I just didn't have your way with words.

LISTEN TO MORTARMAN!!!

Also, read the posts of FYR who really gives you a glimpse into the mind of the WS. She states just like my FWH has told me, the WS can't be demanded to come back and stay. He/she has to come back on their own.

It really blew my FWH's mind when I gave him that freedom. I told him out loud that I didn't want him until he wanted me and I gave him permission to go to her. Go to her he did. She was all that he had and wow did he suffer because she failed miserably, it turns out, in meeting his needs. He tried to make her into me. I shone like rubies to him as he laid over there and missed me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>