RH:

Hey, of course your entitled to your own opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
As is Every one here.

Guess I could have left that part out (but then again this wouldn't be the first time my Not With the Pack sentiments have gotten me in trouble on here).

And your right, I was Not one of the ones [as you say] "attacking" your wife or the other ladies.
(As NOW is your W, I can see how you would See it this Way). Understandable.

Back Then I simply read the thread while it was going on......(However, I did speak up after the fact).

Still, I did (do) agree with the overall message of what you seem to object about (that being
what was related to these women ).
As I would to Anyone (even now) who was going down that same or similar path.

(Such as having a "group", "circling the wagons" & defending their actions of how great the A experince was).
Sorry, but just don't see how that is MBing or constructive in any manner. But that is IMO.

Guess I'm still "flabbergasted" (couldn't find the right word) that just for "daring" to speak what IMO was the truth....some posters were telling NEW WS, to leave this site and NOT stay for the help they definatly needed.
(This is not an attack on any one poster...but used simply as an example of the "type" of thing I myself found distasteful, about that or similar threads).

However, as with back then......I do agree that some messages can and should be "softened" a bit.
There IS a place for "tough love" and then a Time for a softer approach.

As to other stuff: Its a limitation of the medium we are using that Blanket Statements will and do occur.

If I've offended you in some manner (seems so).......that is unfortunate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

(Because some of the posts you and NOW's have written in the past few weeks have really touched me and forced me to really think about my own circumstances).

In fact, I was contemplating asking the Both of you some questions related to some of the messages you've both written.....as they seem to apply to my wife (life) as well.
Most of them were NOT even on the same thread....but still seemed to carry the same message.
Oh well, guess I won't bother now.

With that said, I'm happy that the 2 of you are still together and working on your challenges.
I only Hope that you can find some way to give (get) your W the tools she needs to Help herself. She really sounds Lost at times.

As with NCW, hope you both find your path to make you as a couple and individually.......healthy and whole. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
(Happy wouldn't hurt either) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .
later

Top Rope,


RH had some work to get done, so thought I would respond.

Well, yes....I DO feel lost at times. Don't we ALL? However, I no longer EXPECT my husband to provide me with the tools to "find myself". That is up to me. And I can certainly stay married to him and have a GOOD marriage while I'm searching.

I don't believe you offended RH in any way. Actually, I did not participate in the so-called whining as much as some. But let me say this...I did not see it as pining. What I saw was women searching themselves, looking at what it was they had with OM that they liked so much, in order to come to a better understanding of what it was they were needing from their marriage and were not getting. It was , at least for me, a way to explore what exactly our emotional needs are, because very often, when we are asked early on, we do not know.
RH and I have come a LONG way in this recovery, and we are both very confident that we will remain together until death. If you were implying that my "lostness" will be a hindrance to our marriage, I believe you are wrong. I do not have to be perfect for him to want to stay married to me, and vice versa. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> My lostness is a spiritual issue.

If there is something you want to ask us, please ask! Unless you think we're too messed up, or maybe not as far along as you may have thought! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Respectfully,

NOW

Top rope - I look at this board as a place to work on building marriages, and assume that people are here for that purpose. Since it is a discussion forum, people need to feel safe in discussing their feelings.

I have seen some very hurtful things posted here to people who were in great pain. I'm sure I've hurt people too, but never on purpose, just out of my limited understanding.

Most of the folks that posted on that particular thread are still working on their marriages (including BV). In the end, it is about choices. Sadly, some choose to go their own way.
My WH chose that direction, and I chose to work on personal recovery. RAP made a poor choice and now NC is left to make his.

NOW,

(Gotta make this really, really quick as W and I are "kidless" for the weekend and I want to get to "it" before the hours slip away).

First, Thanks for chiming in! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From NOW:
Unless you think we're too messed up, or maybe not as far along as you may have thought!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heck many, many times I'M NOT as far Along as I thought......so I Know of what You speak.

And my comment of "lost" was meant more So as.....Lost to Yourself.
(The whole "who am I"...."where am I going" .....what's my purpose.../heck is there a purpose type of thing).

[Isn't is hard to sometimes get the point across when NOT face to face??] Is for me anyway.

No disrespect intended (even if it came across as such).....because as I've written, your feelings and thoughts have made me really look deeper into my own W and her state of mind.

Perhaps like you, she is STILL (and may have been for a long time).....confused with Who/What she is?
And of course all the FallOut from her A, could only make her question herself even more so.

This is kind of where your recent posts have made my mind wander.
Is my W lost to herself ? (and was she Well Before any A?).....you know the whole the A was just a symptom deal.

And if she still is, (but there is basically nothing I can do about it).....then what??

And unfortunately, (unlike you) my W has/does "think" she has to be perfect. (not just with me, BUT in EVERYTHING)
Then when she fails (as No One is perfect all the time)....she feels like a failure and beats herself up.
I don't think this way, but I can't stop her from doing so. Aaarrgh.

But I disgress.
This is not the place (at least not on this post) for my questions.
Perhaps another time ....(as I think when dealing with you NOW, I really HAVE to be careful exactly HOW I phrase them). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That's pressure.....so it may take some time and thought.

However, I do THANK YOU for being Willing to at least listen and respond.
That is a gift in and of itself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Thanks again for this response and any you may give in the furture!

<small>[ February 12, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Believer,

(Getting ready to sign off after NOW, but saw your post) so:

As with RH, you did and do what it is you believe you must.

I believe you were (are) truly sincere in what advice you give out to others. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

(Its too bad we just don't agree on this particular point).
But That's, OK (at least for me).

I hope you can see that I had to use some type of example (as RH was stating I was being too general). And that's all it was: an example of where/what I was referring too.

Next, I respect you for giving your M as much of a chance as you could....but then when realizing it was not healthy for YOU.....moving on and getting along with the rest of your life.

Seems as though, I'm pissing off a lot of people today. Yes, I'm not always as diplomatic as I could be.

As with RH, if I've offended you.....that is unfortunate.
Like him, you have a lot to offer to the persons on this site.

I will admit that sometimes I DO let my emotions come across in my postings. Especially, when one really strikes me. But that's just me!

Perhaps I'm the one that needs to keep his fingers off the keyboard. I'll give it some thought.

Please enjoy your Sat.
Take care

I am aware I take things too personally here sometimes (ok, a lot)...and I promise I will take any questions you have at face value and not "read into" them. I need the practice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know I did this to RH in the past, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Have a good time! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NOW

<small>[ February 12, 2005, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: notonlywords* ]</small>

Kind of thought it would! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But that's me: owner of a sarcastic or very "dry" sense of humor.
Neither translates very well on a message board.

No, stalking here.
Geeeesh, I've got enough problems (or should I say challenges? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> )....I'm NOT adding any extra ones.
later

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I look at this board as a place to work on building marriages </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly...and I'm fully aware of that thread, the participants, and the pining. It wasn't done by all, many tried to steer those few in the right direction..sadly now...we find out that it was to no use to some.

NOW..reached out to those others time and time again... acknowledging the issues they were facing..but repeatedly tried to get them to work on the marriage..because as you've said..this IS a Marriage Building site.

I was one of the naysayers and will never deny that. I wasn't malicious, and never posted anything hurtful.

I've stated this before..and I stand by it still..if posters LEAVE..it has nothing what so ever to do with what anybody else has said to them..it's about running away..and if they having running on their mind...nobody can change that mind set FOR them..it has to be a choice made by the runner.

On the other hand...when posters really WANT to overcome the infidelity ..and rebuild their marriage..no amount of 2X4s...drive them away from this site.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
Since it is a discussion forum, people need to feel safe in discussing their feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tell us what you mean by "safe".
What exactly is safe?
and
What exactly in unsafe?

Feelings will often get you to the door of marital recovery. Feelings alone will not get you in the room.

No one gets to their recovery zone simply by discussions of their feelings.

Discussing feelings and feelings and more feelings and avoiding an actual plan ... is a trap ... a trap for the WS and also a trap for the BS.

For recovery:
One needs to discuss a plan.
Formulate a plan.
Implement a plan.
Make adjustments to the plan when necessary.
Stick to the plan when feelings pull in the wrong direction.

WS and BS need a recovery plan.

I have no problem with feelings threads ... I have a problem when ~anyone~ characterizes such a thread as "recovery". It is not recovery. Recovery is developing a plan and follow-through of that plan.

This goes for BS threads as well which go on and on about their feelings ... and meanwhile, there is no plan in place.

Following one's feelings is how most affairs begin ... it feels really good.

Discussion between WS's ... of their feelings ~during the affair~ are counter-productive to marriage recovery about 90% of the time. There is value to such a discussion when it is in context of EN's being unmet ... but then the conversation should PROGRESS to how those same needs can be met IN THE MARRIAGE.

Talking about the OP and the feelings the OP created during the affair keeps those feelings alive!!!

Also, talking about the feelings evoked by the affair partner is a pretty careless way to post to a board dedicated to rebuilding marriages damaged by infidelity. I'd say it was close to hostile toward marriage, really.

Anti-marriage pro-affair discussions should be interrupted in my opinion.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> if posters LEAVE..it has nothing what so ever to do with what anybody else has said to them..it's about running away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see some truth to that...and maybe it explains why I keep saying I'm gonna quit posting, then keep posting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I'm trying to break that habit. (The running away habit)
Other times, maybe it is for other reasons...who really knows, though, right? Except the one who leaves.


NOW

Pep said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Talking about the OP and the feelings the OP created during the affair keeps those feelings alive!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is true...and I'm glad I realized that when I did. That didn't stop me from thinking about those things overnight, but when I did, I understood that I was making myself miserable....so I stopped, albeit gradually.

You really really helped me, PEP, with your straightforward answers....I never once felt threatened by your responses, even if I was uncomfortable with what I was hearing from you.

I admire you so much for your manner, and how you manage to come across in this way....I wish I were more like you in that regard. I sometimes wonder what would happen to this board without your stabilizing influence. Just want you to know I appreciate you.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

NOW

Thank you NOW.

I appreciate that.

Pep

Pep - You are right about feelings. That goes for the BS too. My most valuable lesson here is doing what I need to do, not what I feel like doing - in fact I'm still working on that one.

I think it is the way things were posted - especially the one about JL and "inappropriate".

Just today MM posted a warning about emailing opposite sex members. But it was done in a helpful and not critical way. Allowed everyone to continue posting while staying safe.

Believer,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just today MM posted a warning about emailing opposite sex members. But it was done in a helpful and not critical way </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where was this post? I'd like to read it.

By the way, I also admire your posting style....not loaded with a bunch of baggage, like mine are! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

You've been like a breath of fresh air to me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


NOW

Talking about the OP and the feelings the OP created during the affair keeps those feelings alive!!!

Right on! Ones energy should be directed at what one wants to grow. Mental/emotional energy causes expansion and growth, and that is a universal law.

I unfortunately did not learn this until into my 40's. It came in mighty handy when I quit smoking though. If I had allowed myself to even think about a cigarette and then talk about the good ole days when a smoke was my best friend, it would have been all over for me.

If I had wanted to continue with destructive relationships I would have found myself a nice "feely" website to latch onto but realized my lifelong pattern with dead end, and very hurtful romantic choices needed to end.

So it made sense to find a website where what I wanted to have was being discussed. (a committed, lifelong, productive relationship)

"seek to understand that which you would become, because it is in this understanding that you "become""

My biggest mistake was not understanding that people on a forum do not know me. They do not hear my soft voice, or know my big heart. They have only the written word to go by, which often might come across as crass and uncaring.

Or as NOW said, one might read something else entirely into it depending on their own sitch. Which I often do, but am trying to get away from this kind of gut reaction based on my own insecurity type thing.

It is a real art I think when one can get their point across without offending. Very hard to do without sounding like a mush mellow.

There I took a thread and made it entirely about me again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Really need to work on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I unfortunately did not learn this until into my 40's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a very common age range....me too! I always thought I was the only one, until I came here and learned that I didn't know how much others didn't know, too! LOL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There I took a thread and made it entirely about me again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everyone should have their fifteen minutes of fame!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a real art I think when one can get their point across without offending. Very hard to do without sounding like a mush mellow.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually think, Weaver, that you do a very good job...better than maybe you think! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


NOW

Sounds like a very common age range....me too! I always thought I was the only one, until I came here and learned that I didn't know how much others didn't know, too! LOL

Oh how funny. That made me laugh out loud.

Dylan has this song with something like this in it "But I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now".

I don't know about you NOW but I love life more every year, and realize that I am getting younger every year in a lot of ways. It's fun to realize that we are all just a bunch of big kids.

Thanks for the "15 mins" NOW. You delightful, funny girl!

Pep said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This goes for BS threads as well which go on and on about their feelings ... and meanwhile, there is no plan in place.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now that you mention it, I think this has been really bothering me about some BS.

How not to let it bother me?

NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

How not to let it bother me?

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't answer that... but, sometimes I find that I must stop responding to certain people for awhile ... until they seem more stable and emotionally ready to actually DO something about their pain other than just discuss how bad they feel.

That and a 2X4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Amen, Pep!

SD