Post deleted by KMEJ

KMEJ,

I think the letter started out really strong. That is GOOD! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But, IMVHO, it finished up weak.

What is the point of this letter? To once again tell your H you feel neglected? To once again ask him to be who you want him to be? To say all the things that you have already said and he simply ignored?

I'm not trying to be mean (lest I sound that way)....but this could be a GREAT letter if you put something solid in it - like........

"I love you and would like to stay married. But I can not tolerate a M like this. I want mutual respect, mutual companionship, mutual allowances, and mutual effort. I WANT THIS M TO BE EQUAL. Right now it is not.

In order for me to stay, I will require MC for both of us, IC for both of us, complete openness and honesty, more time together, and complete protection from any possible A.

If you cannot agree to these conditions, then I think it would be best if we parted ways. However, if you do agree to those improvements, then we can reevaluate our progress in 3 months."

Or something similar.......I'm not too good with words either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I would also delete the following parts, because the sound somewhat less resolved and more insecure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do you find it hard to kiss me? touch me? Hold me? Why do you need/want porn before you can desire me? Why is OS all you seek from me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THere are so many things that we need to work on. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We need to start working together and making each other the number one prioity- or we will need to consider all our options, includeing possibly divorce; because as it stands right not I do not think either of us is fully happy, and we deserve more then that. I know I want more then that for you, as you are my best friend, my lover, my everything. I hate seeing the pain and distance in your eyes, the lack of luster in your smile, the full body of your laugh, the sweetness in your voice, and the gentleness of your touch.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you have any idea how long it is since you have told me you loved me? Or even shown it to me in some way? If you are just putting in your time, I would prefer that you did not, it will hurt more in the long run to know this has all been a lie.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......

Delete those parts, put in a plan.....a boundary that you can stick to (if you cry wolf, then you will only be shooting yourself in the foot), and follow through.

You need to be strong. You don't need to cater to what he wants. You don't need to be his servant.

PS - you already told him you were considering DV....sweetie, you are using that in hopes it will 'scare him straight.' It would be absolutely futile to threaten with that again. Besides, you don't want to threaten him.....you just want him to know the facts. Period.

Trick is, you have to follow through....can you do that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

As always, KMEJ - hoping you find your strength and your voice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thank you for your feed back- that is why I posted the letter on here and did not just give it to H. I always backpeddle because I do not want to hurt his feelings and I do not want to push him away. I too thought it was a little soft- and wanted to put a plan in the letter, however I did not/do not know what a great plan will be. Again thank you for your im put- I will defienitly work parts/most of it in when I rewrite it.

I do not like threating divorce, however when AndrewA (I think) would post to me that is what he told me to tell H- so i thought I should take his advice- it may not make the final copy.

The only reason I said that part about DV is because you've already brought it up before.....and unless you are he*l bent on following through with it, I fear it may be an empty threat. Which will then just give him more gumption to continue his patterns.

As for a plan, what steps do you feel would be necessary to be 'working' on this M?
MC?
IC?
15 hours together a week?
sharing household chores?
No LBs?

And what would you be willing to do if he does not meet those guidelines?
DV?
Separate?
Sleep in different rooms?

You basically need to figure out what you need, and what you can handle doing if he does not follow through.

Remember, your boundaries do not have to be "If you don't do this, then we will DV" - they can be "If you aren't going to contribute to repairing this M and making it healthy, then I will move out of our bedroom."

It's a fairly easy step...but also hard still because you will have to stick to your guns until he meets the boundaries - NOT until he comes and cuddles, and says he will work on them.

Just some things to think about.

Post deleted by KMEJ

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could easily move to another bedroom- either I could share with the baby- or the one in the basement. Or he could go down there to I suppose. That is an idea I had not thought of </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you feel you could do this, then that should be your first step if he doesn't respect your boundaries. If he crosses the boundaries, and you are able to uphold this part (and not let him back in until he is meeting your requirements).....it might just give you a bit of a confidence boost while creating a little distance for you. A much needed distance to help you emotionally detach a little bit <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No I do not want a divorce and will try my best to work through this, however I feel that H is at the point where he knows I am not going anywhere there for until I show signs of seriousness he feels he can do what ever he wants when ever he wants </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can't just show signs of seriousness. You have to be serious. It's similar to how your H shows signs of improvement....but then doesn't follow through. Thus, you know he is not truly changing.

You can't just start to be serious or say you'll be serious. You have to mean business . And you have to stick to your guns.

Remember - this isn't a game of manipulation. This is about knowing what you want, need, and desire the M to be like.....and standing up for your beliefs and desires. You do have a right to want those things, you know. What you want is not too much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have just been dreaming a lot lately- thinking a lot lately- and observing others lately. I know there is more out there then what I have </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was one of the things that helped me most when my H and I separated. I stayed with an older couple that had a very healthy relationship. Now they bickered a lot, snapped at each other sometimes, and even griped about the other sometimes. But when all was said and done, they always did it in a respectful manner - they both treated each other as an equal - and they always managed to communicate with each other and make up in the end.

It was so odd for me to see that couples can fight, get angry, then work it out and make up. That was never a part of my relationship. When we fought, H just walked away and ignored me until he was ready to 'forget' it - so we never worked things out. But oddly enough - he would always bring those things back up at a later date.

I was just too darn naive to realize that I had a right to want to work things out - and that I could stand up for myself. I only learned that after the A. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

You know we will be here for you KMEJ. In fact, I think you will see a lot more of the past posters returning to support you when you actually take action.

Taking action will help you feel better as well. It will build your self esteem and then give you strength to make the next step.

you can do it.

KMEJ, theres a tenet I use when trying to fix problems with our buggest customers. That is:

" Every system is orgnaized perfectly to achieve the results it gets".

To change the results, you have to review the whole system and make all the system contribute to the desired results.

Yoru recovery isperfectly aligned to achive the results achieved.

A distant/cold. Non contributory FWS, and a fearful, trepidous, hopeful FBS are producing a recovery that is not satisfactory to you although your FWH seems happy with it.

Now if you are satisfied with the current results, change nothing. You know from your studies on here that it is the FBS that has to carry the lions share of recovery . The whip hand passed to you the day NC was established.

IMO you are terrified of him leaving and fear saying how you feel in case it pushes him away.

Well if you are happy to have him home but distant, change nothing.

He sees no consquences from his distance and lack of contribution to recovery.

If you want a better marriage you must risk everything and tell him that you have given him a year to withdraw, and you need to know now if he will make it worth your while to continue your loving investment in your marriage or not.

Not a DJ, just a statement of a personal boundary - i.e. you wil not give without return for ever.

If he leaves you it will be BECAUSE HE HAD AN AFFAIR not because you refused to be a doormat.

If he leaves you it means he had ALREADY left you whileliving at home and you were holding on with your fingrnails.

You must be stronger KMEJ. My patience and mercy have been really useful in our recovery but my boundaries have NEVER been violated and I have been terrified every time I have enforced one.

But every time Squid has moved closer to me.No guarantees , he may leave but I know of no way to get your WH to contribute more without you risking anything.

KMEJ you must decide if you are happy with the way things are because without change and RADICAL change in your recovery behaviour thats what you're gonna have.

All blessings.

Post deleted by KMEJ

KMEJ, I responded to exactly the question of how to REALAUNCH a stalled recovery on THIS THREAD tonoodle last night. have a read.

In summary I believe there are three threads to recovery :

Practical
Personal
Traumatic

And Squid was contributing hard to the PRACTOCAL recovery but I made it clear she needed to work on the other stuff with me too.

Recovery is an ACTIVE way to live, not a passive one.

Read that and see if it helps you at all.

It worked for ME and for RIF before me from a much worse sitch than mine.

You can do it. Your indignance at the unfairness of your unequal recovery today will serve you well I think.
{{{{KMEJ}}}

Post deleted by KMEJ

Theres only one new approach that will work. Not backing down.

Sorry KMEJ.

You have in the last year tried every combination of soft words to get your H to change his way sand hes thrown them back in your face with indifference right ?

How then are any more soft words going to work ?Why should he change ? He sees no bad consequence.
He can just intimdate you into backing down and you cary on giving him loveless sex while he lives a Sultan's life.
He wants you to change it seems. Why not print off two emotional needs Questionnaires off this site and suggest he does one.

That will give a clue as to how BOTH of you need to change to meet the others needs.

He's a bully KMEJ.

nobody on here - not Bob, not Pep, not Ark...nobody can change your husbands ways nor advise you how to catalyse that change whil you are so passive.

You must RISK losing him or stay as you re KMEJ.

Sorry hon.

I have been there. Time to be joan of arc not mother theresa.

{{{{KMEJ}}}}

Post deleted by KMEJ

KMEJ,
I emailed you under a different thread. My H's therapist has suggested we email each other which seems to help because there is less likelihood of escalation and misinterpretation due to body language and tone of words.

I think it might help just to let him know you are unhappy and see what he does.

Cherished

I will try that. I have in the past- but at least then I can finish my sentance and maybe he will think about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> Thank you Bob Pure and LIT for your imput-
Last night just reaffirmed that I can not continue to sit idle- I am too miserable to stay in this state. Things continue to stay on the roller coaster- only improving when it suits my H.

He came home from work (he works evenings 4-12) talking on his phone- laughing, and went on the computer- continued to watch TV- and then put on P*rn- that is where I came in- I was able to sleep through most of it. Well of course the P*rn turns H on and at 3am he decides to push the issue- I will spare the details- but sufice to say that I asked him to stop several time- when it became evidant that he would not let it go I let him so that I couldgo back to sleep. I told him with out love I was not interested- and I was Dog tired!!

I know that SF is one of H's main needs- mine as well- however mine needs to have the emotional aspect of it as well- not just the physical release.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sweetie, as soon as you said "no" the first time and his actions didn't stop, you should have picked yourself up out of the bed and moved to another room. Even if it was the living room floor. Or the bathtub.

It's not as if this isn't a regular occurring problem that happens every week. So, instead of taking the easy way out of it by giving in, make a plan for an alternative action - and DO it.

There are interactions the two of you keep performing, over and over again.

You can't control his words or actions.
You can't control his responses.
You can't control the ending of this movie.

You can only control *your* words and *your* actions.

And by doing so, you can impact the current script.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I realize that this needs to come from me- however I could use some help with writting down my needs and my boundaries. I know several of you have helped me in the past- however H and I are going out tomorrow night and I thought it might be an okay time to have a real heart to heart- I want it to be good- so any and all words of wisdom are invited- even the 2x4's (gentle ones please)

Thanks </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really think that he doesn't have a clue about what you want or need?

The fact is - he doesn't care.

You keep thinking that if you just express your heart the right way at the right time, that he's suddenly going to "get" it.
Maybe if you get the time right. Or the tone. Or the words. Or the emotion.

But it's not going to happen.

He's not going to change because suddenly he understands what you are saying.

Please hear me.

You are not ever going to express your heart to him in a way that will actually get through and make a difference.

You need to *stop* expressing yourself from your heart.
Because *every* time you express your heart, you are just climbing back on the treadmill to nowhere.

You need to start expressing from your head.
And that takes planning.
And practice.
And massive effort.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
However I can already tell you how this conversation will go. I will state my concerns, I will talk from my heart, and H will ask me where these thoughts came from- state that I have been talking to my family, or a co-worker from my 2nd job- or my "new boyfriend". Once I state that I have done none of the above his eyes will ice over and he will turn it all around on me, and how I never will change and that he knew it was a mistake coming back to me.... Then I will go on and explain my feelings further and he will say he has no idea what I am talking about and then will spew out all the things he hates about me, I will apoligize and our evening together will have been ruined with nothing gained.

I have tried that approch more times then I care to admit- to the same resolve. I am looking for a new approch. Granted it is my backbone that always snaps- H knows just what to do or say. I know this is my fault - I am seeking new ways. I do not want to manipulate my H- I never thought I had- however Cherished says I am...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">STOP stating your concerns.
He's heard them all before.
You are NOT going to get through to him with WORDS.

He has developed defensive strategies that keeps him justifying his actions and treatment of you.

He has developed offensive strategies that divert every attempt you make at expressing your heart and concerns "one more time."

Why would you even attempt to defend the accusation that you must have gotten these concerns from talking to other people?
That is nothing more than a bullsh!t diversionary tactic, which you keep falling for.
It is a cheeseless tunnel.

You have got to stop taking blame. Have you been imperfect in your relationship with your husband? Yes. Manipulative? Maybe so. But, it's the equivalent of stressing out over the wart on your finger while someone with an axe is whacking away at your whole torso.

He says, "how I never will change and that he knew it was a mistake coming back to me" and you fall for it.

1. It assumes that you alone were supposed to change. He had the affair.
2. He places himself in a position of power by saying "you will never change."

Next time he says "it was mistake coming back to you" - I would agree!

You're plodding along on a treadmill, then are surprised when you arrive back at the same swamp, drowning.

Let's brainstorm. The interactions you two have established are ruts that you both tumble into.

Get out of the rut.

Go through the conversations that keep deadending and change your assumptions and responses.

Here's a link to a description of conversations from hell. It compares normal convos to the manipulative, abusive ones that can occur.

Here's a link describing the verbal abuser -
link

And here's a link describing controlling behaviors - link

And here's a link about when you still love your abuser -
link

A quote, "If you run your life with your head instead of your heart, you will emerge stronger, wiser, and more self-confidant."


The whole site might be of benefit to you.

Because once you can determine more accurately *what* the problem is, the better chance you have of finding some resolution.

You keep thinking that the problem is that you haven't expressed your needs clearly enough.

That ain't the problem.

Regards,
Garmus

<small>[ February 14, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Garmus ]</small>

Next time that happens..I suggest you pick up the phone and call the police..report that your H is attempting to rape you. Bet that would get his attention.

Kmej, I can not express to you how it revolts me to witness your acceptance of this atrocity.

You are not even *allowed* autonomy over your own body..you have nothing that even resembles human dignity.

No means no. Not only is it the height of disrespect to disregard "No"..it is also a crime.

MB principles do not apply to abusive spouses. They don't..and you can't make it so by wishing it so.

A man who will rape his wife is capable of anything..get out of that house until he is willing and able to control himself. That will be the only advice you get from me until it is done.

He will respect no boundary..you are too weak to enforce a boundary. This is not a way to live.

Noodle

I am sorry I upset you Noodle. i was going to go delete that part as I felt it no longer neccisary to share- but it was quoted so I saw no point of deleting it as I can not delete others. Please accept my apologies for offending you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well of course the P*rn turns H on and at 3am he decides to push the issue- I will spare the details- but sufice to say that I asked him to stop several time- when it became evidant that he would not let it go I let him so that I couldgo back to sleep. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a sick cycle, KMEJ. This whole scenario is absolutely degrading, demeaning, and disgusting.

You were RAPED. Do you understand the significance of that? RAPED. Just because you are his W doesn't mean you have to oblige his carnal needs. And it is disgusting that he could even perform with you saying 'no.'

Your H is a RAPIST.

You need to get out.

KMEJ,

AARRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHH

Noodle <--- banging head on keyboard now.

You didn't offend me..what is being done to you offends me..what you are allowing to be done to you offends me..your acceptance of it offends me because it is SICK and WRONG and I can't see it any other way.

He is a RAPIST!! What else do you need to know?!

Post deleted by KMEJ