I'd appreciate your thoughts.

Mac

Mac, if it's feedback on your sitch I'd rather answer here than t/j Mrs X's thread.

Your posts give me the heebie jeebies because it's all so similar.

All I can tell you is what happened with me and I'm going to be totally honest.

As you did it's going to be a list of facts and times really.

When I broke up with OM when I was 18 (b/f at the time) I did it because he put everything else in his life ahead of me. I moved on but always kept an eye on what was going on in his life. By the time I was engaged to Rob I was really past him. He was a friend and like you and your wife we did the odd thing with them but Rob was never comfortable with it.

I knew where he lived, I knew when he moved to Canada, I knew when he came back from Canada. None of it was through contacting him, it was all second hand through other people.

I saw him when our children were very small outside their playgroup. We talked for about an hour and Rob was very uncomfortable when I told him.

I still always knew where he lived, where he worked, how many children.

When I bumped into an old friend of his (many, many years later) the first thing I asked was how "he" was doing. That information was passed on to him unbenownst to me. When I bumped into him outside my work soon after that, he asked me for coffee but I wouldn't have dreamt of going with him. I said I was too busy. It wasn't until 5 years later and the funeral that I was in a place to have a A.

So does that mean he was always in my thoughts and marriage? I'll answer that myself. Yes, to a certain extent. I often wondered if I'd bump into him or see him somewhere but it didn't affect how I felt for Rob. I have to say there are no other b/fs (not that were many at all) that I could care less about.

Unfortunately, it took the A to close the door completely and that is not a solution of any sort whatsoever.

So, your w could well have felt like that. Interested, but not that interested until something happened to make it all happen.

Jen

Jen,
I know what you're saying. I think what you described as the motivation is the minimum that she was thinking.

You're describing what I call "keeping tabs" on a former or possible love interest. When you are in the same circles you ask about them.

I think my W did a bit more than just keeping tabs on OM. She was in direct contact. My guess is that it included meetings as well as calls. You don't stay in contact with a friend for 10-15 years without getting together with them at least occassionally.

One thing I forgot to say in the thread is that I kept these records for tax purposes. As I've gone thru them I noticed that there was a phenomena similar to what had happened with her cell phone records during the A. The old certain bills are missing trick.

There was the occassional missing page of long distance calls. There were even a few bills completely missing. I do recall asking where the missing bills were during the respective tax season. I got the "it must have gotten thrown away." So there was a secret relationship that was being covered up.

That tells me this was more than just a friendship that turned into an affair 10-15 years later. At a minimum I think it was an EA that lasted for years.

Does this make sense?

Mac

Yes it does make sense.

Mac, you are dealing with a marriage that's been marred by this for years.

But, really, what matters is the state of it now. I mean has the A closed the door forever like mine did?

Are you REALLY connecting on all levels? Rob and I are.

Geez, what I wouldn't give to get inside Mrs Mac's mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I bet you're feeling the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

I just checked out Mrs X's thread to see what you'd said and clicked on the link to see where you were babbling and it took me here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

Jen,
There in lies the problem. It makes sense that all of this has been going on at some level for years. Yes things "appear" to be great now. That's just it I thought things were fine for the past 10-15. I had no idea what was really going on in her mind.

So is the marriage going well now or not? That's the problem my whole frame of reference is completely changed and out of focus.

I honestly don't know if she's happy or if she is just living her life.

Maybe I just can't trust again.

Mac

Jen,
Ok now here's a link back to my babbling over at the MrsX thread

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=036665;p=2#000028

Just so the babble can go full circle.

Mac

Maybe the whole PA thing really did close the door. She's still with you, she did have the option to leave even if it wasn't with the OM.

I really don't know. If she is just "living her life" something will give. You can only keep that up for so long before it explodes all over the place.

{{{Mac}}}} you've been going through this for so long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

Hi cwmac,

I just did what Jen did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I don't know what you think about what I wrote in the last thread.

You ask if she is happy or just living the life, but what about your happiness?

Why are you going along with her ignoring your feelings and her not doing anything that might make her uncomfortable or embarrassed?

Hey Smur, that is so true. It's so one sided Mac - time she stepped up to the plate.

Jen

Fair enough ladies.

Mac

Mac,

I'm sorry that I didn't reply sooner. I didn't get a chance to sit long enough to reply, been so busy with work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think my W did a bit more than just keeping tabs on OM. She was in direct contact. My guess is that it included meetings as well as calls. You don't stay in contact with a friend for 10-15 years without getting together with them at least occassionally.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't have much input for you, unfortunately, except my own experience as a WW. I am in no position to give advice, ya know...
I was only involved with OMM less than 2 years, so in relation to your W's relationship with the OM, mine was a brief A. What I do know is as long is there is ANY CONTACT WHATSOEVER with the OM there will be lies, omissions and betrayal to you. It is impossible to maintain 2 lives. I couldn't be anything remotely close to a wife when I was involved with OM, even if it was just weeks of IM'ing without meeting in person. My focus was on him and naturally I felt addicted. I don't know you and I don't know your W, but I fear that if she has been contacting him all this time, she has been neglecting you and maybe you just got used to it. During the A, I had some good times with H, and sometimes I fooled him into thinking I cared, or wanted to be with him, but I had no feelings for H. Like I said, it was hard for me to focus on 2 men. One (OM) was my primary focus the other (H) was not even close.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I can't say if your situation is any of the 3 scenario's you posed. B/C I don't know the truth, only your W knows. But I would venture to guess she might have kept him as an open option all along in case things didn't work out with you. I know that was the case with me and with OMM. And being in an A I couldn't imagine it ever working out with H. Who knows if it will even now, but I am motivated to fix it, and I desperately want to do the right thing this time.
Now I'm glad I didn't pick OMM, and I do know that any contact with him, no matter how intermittent would send me into a tailspin and rehash all the feelings I had. I don't think I could ever speak to him again. That is why I wonder what would motivate your W to continue to communicate with OM. But you would think after all this time she would have left you for him if she really wanted him, so she must love you a lot because she's with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think as long as their is contact, the relationship will never die. Only when at least one of the A people really want to end it, and there's no contact, the WS's start to become normal people again. I like the "abducted by aliens" analogy, because it really does seem that way.
I'm sorry if I don't have anything to say that helps. I do hope you're ok!

NGU,
Just to be clear I don't believe that there is currently any contact. If there is, it is very underground.

Maybe it is. Now that I think about it it always seemed to me that she never really went thru withdrawal.

Does anyone think I should call his wife or should I drop it? The contact has been her entire marriage and I'm sure her H didn't tell her that.

Just wondering.

Mac

Mac, I know you'd love to tell the OM's w but at this stage it's only to make you feel better. Rob exposed because there was every chance that I would contact the OM again (at that particular time) and that is really the only reason to expose.

I'm more concerned about your connection with your w. Bob Pure says he wants to bite Squid he loves her so much and Rob feels that way about me.

I don't know how you feel about your w. You seem very ambivalent and you seem like you're just "existing" together. It needs to be more than that.

Jen

Jen,
Sorry for the slow respomse.

I had 4 months of feeling the way Bob Pure and Rob feel. I was getting back to a really close feeling with W.

It was the old phone records that ended that renewed feeling. Actually I can't even say that the good feelings have gone away all together. Most of the time they are still here. I guess you could say that the old records just added enough to the doubt that rattles around the heads of all BSs occassionally during recovery.

I had gotten over the need to ask questions and discuss the affair. The discovery of this new info and the fact that W misled just strengthens the compulsion to want to think, review, analyze and then discuss.

It'll probably take a bit of time and then I'll get back to that better place.

Thanks to you,NGU and Smur for the discussion.

BTW, I didn't want to call OM's W to "feel better." We had promised each other that we'd call if there was contact or if we ever discovered additional info.

Despite the promise I wasn't sure I should call.

Mac

Mac, your sig line says still making progress - that's got to be a good thing.

As I said before if all the contact and keeping tabs came to a head with the A and now that's gone, you might have to put it behind you and really move forward.

I misunderstood about you wanting to contact OM's w. I don't think is new info though.

I also saw on the "where have you been" thread that Rome was your favourite city. Mine too. The combination of something as old as the forum, the Parthenon and beautiful St Peters, with all those beautiful shoe shops - priceless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen

Hi cwmac,

I'm glad to hear that you were getting better before this setback, at least. But I can understand why its thrown you, and also because your W doesn't seem understanding of your feelings, in discussing it with you to your satisfaction.

I think you said before that you remembered her saying once that she had heard from him years agao and that she knew about his divorce, so maybe in a sense its not such new information that they were in contact back then. Is it more that it creates doubt in your mind about whether she is tellign the truth about other things, since it seems that she didn't tell the whole truth about this?

Does she know that she has a problem with conflict avoidance? I guess that its only really something that she can fix. I was wondering if you had told her how unhappy this made you, and ask if she will try and do soemthing about this problem of hers.

Smur,

Once again sorry for slow response. Doesn't make the correspondence very easy does it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you said before that you remembered her saying once that she had heard from him years agao and that she knew about his divorce, so maybe in a sense its not such new information that they were in contact back then. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She made it sound as though he called only once during the past. It was him calling her. Isn't that the way it always is? In reality it was her calling him a minimum of 3-4 times a year as I've said.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Is it more that it creates doubt in your mind about whether she is tellign the truth about other things, since it seems that she didn't tell the whole truth about this?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is part of it. It makes me wonder what other facts she avoided or downplayed in order "to protect" me.

The bigger issue is the secret life that she has had since at least 1992. Even if they were only friends it bothers me to no end that she kept this relationship a secret for our entire marriage.

What does that say for our relationship? The level of intimacy?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does she know that she has a problem with conflict avoidance? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She does but I'm not sure if she really wants to change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was wondering if you had told her how unhappy this made you, and ask if she will try and do soemthing about this problem of hers.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She knows. I told her I needed to talk about it if I was ever to get over it. She just gets angry that the shadow of the affair is still following her.

Mac

KiwiJen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As I said before if all the contact and keeping tabs came to a head with the A and now that's gone, you might have to put it behind you and really move forward. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're probably right. I'll never know if they were "just friends" or whether he was the "feel good" back up that was called to cheer her up from her miserable existence with me.

It bothers me, as you can tell from my tone, that I'm the one who always needs to compromise.

On a more posative note:

Si, La Rome e\ bella. Imparo parlare italiano.

Ciao,

Maco

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Buongiorno, Maco

It's nice to see the old Mac sense of humour back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's funny to talk about Italy and I'm sure it is for you too, knowing what we both know about the complete fiasco Italy was at the time. Your w's A, my A.

But I still loved the place with a passion. We had two weeks in Tuscany in a villa built in 1100AD. In the spring, with all the poppies flowering on the roadsides. We saw wild boar and deer. I cooked at the villa and had a wonderful time at the supermarket, buying all the stuff in Italian.

Ciao,

Jeniella

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>