</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>.....
I do wonder how I will get through all this. I am not feeling very good today. ....

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, lunamare.

That is to be expected.

The way you are going to get through all this is with a plan. You are going to read the books recommended on this site, and follow the principles outlined therein.

That is going to be your plan of 'attack'.

-That plan is going to give you clear direction.
-That plan is going to give you an advantage in the effort to recover your marriage.
-That plan has worked for many marriages here.

You will find that having a plan is going to provide you with more comfort, in the long run, than tears, or hand holding, or the commiseration of a close friend. All of those are good things, but the plan is in effect 24/7.

You will get through this.

All the best,
Gimble

I agree, I need to have a plan, just to at least not go insane.

I haven't gotten the books, but I have read everything on the site, and know about the concepts,etc.

I am going to try and give myself some direction.

a) avoid LBs (anger, disrespect, judgement) during our exchanges;
b) re ENs - at this point I don't know which ones I meet, which ones the OW meets, and with this I am confused because he seems to be in the "withdraw" mode; all I can try and do is to listen and understand where he is coming from without judgement; try not to be too "in his face" or clingy;
c) work hard at not "trying to convince him" that we as a couple have "potential" because he is in a FOG state, in love with OW, and cannot imagine this at this point (even I can't! at this point)
d) try not to get discouraged - even though I am - because my EN are definitely not being met!

But mostly it's because overall, I am still not able to wrap my mind around what is happening. We are seeing a MC next Tuesday and I don't know what we will be telling him. H is ready to separate, I am not (although I know if he wants he can just leave - which he doesn't really want to do and is ready to give me some "time"). Will he resent me for not collaborating? Is this a big LB? Is it realistic to discuss with the MC how we got here as a couple, and not discuss where we are going from here? Will H see it as me not "accepting him, his decision". I also expect the MC to say that it will be difficult to work on anything without knowing which direction we are prepared to discuss for the future. This meeting is getting me really uptight. I don't feel prepared. My H at his worst or when feeling fragile, can "attack" (not literally), can be very rigid, very proud, as a way at getting at me, and hopefully he won't do this with the MC. But somehow I know I need to be prepared to hear hurtful things, and I am not sure I will be able to take it. I am feeling extremely fragile, so how am I going to "stand up" for myself, for my M. I feel the tension getting to me a bit. I don't feel confident, I do feel like giving up (but then there is so much at stake!)

It's hard not knowing if the efforts I make are actually helping or hurting the situation, because it's hard to "read" H's reaction (because sometimes there's none) and I can't read his mind! So, living under this limbo state of "not knowing" is really hard, and it's hard to plan: finance, projects, etc. how long can things be kept up just on a day-to-day basis.

God help me to have the patience with both myself and H.

I just feel like crying now.

Thanks to all for being there. I give all of you hugs. I read some of your situations, which are or have been really hard. You all have a lot of courage. At this point, I don't know if I have what it takes.

Lunamare

Sorry, here's a bunch of questions though...

Has your husband agreed to NC with OW while you are going to counseling etc.?

Does anyone else know about the A?

Do you know who OW is? Have you contacted OW H yet?

Have you told your WH that you intend to expose?

How does he react to this?

This is all going to his "decision"--I'll explain later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>We are seeing a MC next Tuesday and I don't know what we will be telling him. H is ready to separate, I am not (although I know if he wants he can just leave - which he doesn't really want to do and is ready to give me some "time"). Will he resent me for not collaborating? Is this a big LB? Is it realistic to discuss with the MC how we got here as a couple, and not discuss where we are going from here? Will H see it as me not "accepting him, his decision". I also expect the MC to say that it will be difficult to work on anything without knowing which direction we are prepared to discuss for the future. This meeting is getting me really uptight. I don't feel prepared. My H at his worst or when feeling fragile, can "attack" (not literally), can be very rigid, very proud, as a way at getting at me, and hopefully he won't do this with the MC.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let's set aside your anxiety with the upcoming MC meeting for a moment. But it is justified. Let's work on the practicalities.

Whenever a MB "newbie" BS like yourself announces that you and the WS are seeing a MC jointly for the first time, I get chills up my spine. This is because of the complete unknowns of both the BS and the MC. We feel we know the WS pretty well. Kinda ironic, huh? But this is the truth. We KNOW what he's gonna say, what his attitude will be, and even what his conclusion will be afterwards. I am 99% certain of this.

We can't say that about either you or the MC, though. This is why I've been pressing you for details. But even WITH your details, the MC is a wild card. Half of them out there are below average and many of the remainder are either not pro-marriage or are amateurs masquerading as "real" counselors. How many does that leave?

I am not trying to create more anxiety in you, I'm just providing a synopsis of the accumulated information shared here about these first MC sessions from many others. Without your preparation, it's a total crapshoot for you. There CAN be more good than harm coming from this, however, and you should procede as planned. What I am working up to is a recommendation that you try to get an individual session with one of the MB counselors first. Think of this as an insurance policy for your first joint visit next week - an attempt to keep you from being the sitting duck. They can arm you with knowledge, questions and answers you'll need.

If this is not possible, please start a new thread asking advice for a first joint MC session to be as prepared as possible. Heck, start the new thread anyway to get as much knowledge as possible. We'll do the best we can to help you and you'll go in, hopefully with realistic expectations and a plan, so that it WILL be worth it.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Freefromlies:
<strong>Have you told your WH that you intend to expose?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!

He'll receive this as a threat and it gives him an opportunity to "warn" others that they may be hearing from his crazy wife who is going through menopause and is out of her mind and has this wild, crazy suspicion that he's fooling around on him just because of this bad movie she saw last week.

Take it to the bank.

WAT

lunamare.

You can't control him or his actions. Also, trying to read a wayward spouse is akin to trying to read tea leaves in the bottom of a cup.

All you can do, is do the things that are under your control, well.

You can't meet all his emotional needs right now. What you can do is let him see positive changes in YOU. Work on YOU.

Study the 'distance' issue. Learning to juggle the 'loving distance' principle is one of your best weapons in the battle.

I don't coddle very well, although I try to be very gentle with the ladies, but some hard core truth is in order. You are in for a rough ride. This, you can not change. This pain has come into your life and it is going to stay for a while.

BUT

Pain is a part of life, just like joy. All of us have to deal with it in our lives. No one is immune. Everyone gets bitten.

So, instead of panic, face the fact that there is no easy path around what you are facing. Stand up straight, and walk through it. I know you have heard "a straight line is the shortest path between two points". It happens to be oft repeated because it is true.

You have listed points on your plan. This is good. Sit down, write it out. Keep it short and simple. Memorize it to the point where you can repeat the list forward and backward, effortlessly. The reason you want it planted in your brain is because it is very difficult to 'remember' when you are extremely stressed, or in a situation that is akin to an emergency.

It will get easier. Be patient.

Gimble

I second the BAD counselor risk, a counselor told me not to ever tell my BS about my A!! Biggest mistake of my life!!!!!

Why not use Steve Harley? I understand his sessions are over the phone...and since he specializes in this arena.

WORTHATRY: You don't think she should expose?

Answers to questions from Freefromlies,

No, he has not agreed to NC with OW (they work together); that's part of the problem of seeing a MC- why are we seeing one? So he can tell me that he wants to leave me (for the OW) - which I have heard - or will we focus on what happened to us, because we do have kids, and we will need to communicate and collaborate.

Yes, I do know who the OW is. Apparently her H and family is aware of the A. Both OW and H are seeing IC. H says that OW will probably leave OW H.

I know my H is not a good source, but he says that "no" they do not have a pact to each leave their spouses so that they can be together. If fact, he's not sure he wants to live with her. He just wants his freedom back.

On our side, some family members and some friends are aware of A.

Yes, the whole situation puts me as the victim, with him deciding it all!

I do agree the MC is an unknown. I expect a miracle probably. A third person telling my H that this is not a good time to make decisions, best to review relationship and see what happened, etc. My H seems set on moving on at this point! But then he is agreeing to meet MC - to please me? So that I won't be trouble? To shut me up? I know that it takes two to tango. H doesn't want to right now. Will he change his mind, or if does, will he be too proud to says so? Some people are prepared to pay a high price just to be right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Freefromlies:
<strong>WORTHATRY: You don't think she should expose? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she should expose - without warning. I don't think she should tell her H that she is before hand.

WAT

***No, he has not agreed to NC with OW (they work together);***

Oh, gods, what else is new . . .

***that's part of the problem of seeing a MC- why are we seeing one?***

Many, many people here will tell you that seeing a marriage counselor while the WS is still seeing the OP is an utter waste of time and money. And I solidly agree.

You are hoping the counselor will tell your H that married people do not date and this behavior is NOT okay. (I hoped for the same thing with three differnt counselors. Not one of them did this. Forget it.)

WH is hoping the counselor will tell YOU to just let him have the freedom to "be himself" (translation: date other women) since that's what he wants and you can't change him.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, yeah, what IS the point of going to MC? I agree that IC for you would be much saner.

***I know my H is not a good source, but he says that "no" they do not have a pact to each leave their spouses so that they can be together. If fact, he's not sure he wants to live with her. He just wants his freedom back.***

Of course. Like I said, he wants you both. He just wants to have both the security of marriage and the fun of dating other women and is fully prepared to bully you into going along with this. Expect him to get meaner if you begin standing up to him.

Mulan

sorry, double post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 18, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Scared&Insecure ]</small>

Once again, I agree w/Mulan.

My H also said that he didnt want OW to leave her H, but he did want out of our M to 'get his freedom back'. I saw it as 'he wanted his cake, and eat it too' He changed his tune when he suddenly realized that I didnt want him under those conditions. I was leaving, that left him w/2 choices, his FREEDOM, or HER, I was not a decision, or an option. He decided he didnt want either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, at one level he will have what he wants, because we have two kids together and he knows I will do what it takes to protect them most (translation: work with him and accept his conditions). He knows me too well! Bottom line, I won't make a scene to protect my kids, and he doesn't want to either for the same reason. So, we go down quietly, with him mostly wanting what he wants.

Here I am naively wanting to fight for my M all alone. Right now I objectively feel that I find myself quite pathetic.

How can you fight a partner wanting his 'freedom', while you are coming from a position of ideals such as maturity, committment, responsibility, introspection,whatever. I feel really stupid right now. But, I guess I am going to feel a lot of things that I haven't felt, or haven't felt for a long time.

I feel a lot of sadness. I see the glass half full, H sees the glass half empty. Am I on my way towards acceptance, or am I giving up? Am I being just stubborn?

I am definitely mixed up, and don't know where I stand. I could get really hurt here! The pain is hard to bear already.

Anyway, until next time.

Again, I appreciate the time you are taking to read me and advise me. I don't know you all nor your histories, but I can tell you have been in a similar path, one way or another.

I know you all probably see things that I don't yet see. But I hear you - you're all telling to get ready for a very bumpy ride, that I did not necessarily want to take. I just hope I will survive it. I don't know if I would put that much effort for myself, but my kids are my light - I don't want them to suffer more than they have to.

Lunamare

Luna, when I was 15 my parents sat me down calmly and told me that my mother was in love with another man. It hurt my father a lot but they didn't want to "upset" the kids by making a scene. My father was very angry at my Mom, but mostly hid this from me. My mother told me that her love and special connection with someone else was the reason she could not stay in the marriage.


13 years later, I expressed the same disrespect for marriage and instead of facing my partner or leaving with my own pride, I took the cowardly route and had an A. I am not blaming my mother or my father for my adult decisions....and I am doing my best to accept responsibility for my own betrayal and lies.

But I can't help but think that if my father had made more of a FIT and declared that love cannot come from lies and deceit that maybe I would have had more respect for those promises I made to my own BS. I really wish my father had explained to me that when you are unhappy in a marriage you do the honest thing and face your spouse and leave if you must but leave honestly!!! I really wish he would have made a strong stand and said that what she did was cowardly...after all it is the truth, right?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> In trying to protect my image and respect for my mother, they damaged my image and respect for marriage. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

As a FWS, I may not have the best advice for you, as I have not truly been in your seat.
But when I read the post about protecting the kids, I couldn't help but remember my own childhood.

YES PROTECT them...protect their idea of what honest and integrity should be. When they learn of the A, if they don't already know...let them know that your WH behavior is NOT acceptable. That his feelings for this OW are NOT love. I remember feeling like my mother had cheated on me somehow....but that since it was love then it must have been (okay).

It is NOT love. It is narccism. It is deceit and betrayal against the WHOLE family. And should be treated accordingly. I believe whole heartedly that NOT getting angry and NOT standing up for what should have been the sanctity of marriage may be setting your own boys up to experiencing the same thing.

Whew, I must have some real pent up anger about this because my heart is racing.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

((((((((((((((((luna))))))))))))))))

You've been through a lot in a short time. But you are getting really good advice here. I'm hoping you are "grounded" enough to soak it in!

As part of Plan A, exposure is like your largest non-nuclear bomb that can be used to help end the affair. Yes, in one way it can be considered a Love Buster, but, it's a very powerful weapon, and just a few exposures close to the epicenter (your WH) can make a huge impact.

It is important that you NOT tip your hand or "threaten" your WH with the exposure. It is intended to "blindside" your WH and pull the rug out from under the feet of the A. And it will.

Read all about exposure in this website, and fully understand it is an act of love, done for the sole purpose of bringing the A, which will best survive in secrecy, to the light of day. This is the single point that can have the very most influence on a WS, and sort of "shoves" reality into the fantasy world that has developed. Please don't take this procedure lightly, or do it without due research.

On another note.... this all takes place at a snails pace. You will be in an emotional turmoil for your foreseeable future. Train yourself to be patient, and try to keep busy with things that are important to YOU to keep your mind off the turmoil. The worst thing you can do right now is throw yourself a pity party, and wallow in the sadness of this mess. To do so can "freeze" your ability to take control of things that ARE within your reach, and empower yourself by doing those things.

We feel your pain. We understand what you are enduring. We wish we could take it away. But we can't. All we can do is advise you to take actions that are supported by the MB program, and believe in them, in order to make your suffering perhaps less than we had to endure, or shorter than we had to endure, by keeping you on the "mission".

Plan A with a vengence! Continue posting to vent, to ask questions, to receive advice, and to give yourself a "voice" in your future.

Best wishes,
SD

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^bump^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hi, lunamare.

Quote
=====================================
How can you fight a partner wanting his 'freedom', while you are coming from a position of ideals such as maturity, committment, responsibility, introspection,whatever. I feel really stupid right now. But, I guess I am going to feel a lot of things that I haven't felt, or haven't felt for a long time.
=====================================

You fight by setting boundaries. You can not fight and avoid conflict at the same time. Fighting for your marriage IS conflict. Trying to keep everything on an even keel, and fighting for the marriage is not going to happen.

You don't fight his desire for freedom. that will just make him want it more. What you are fighting for is your marriage. Plan A is about showing the best parts of you and your marriage to your wayward spouse and taking actions such as exposure, to help end the affair.

I know you are hurting. I wish I could give you a big hug and tell you it will all be alright, but I can't. You have a lot to face, and you need to be able to do that head on and with a clear mind.

Listen to what these people are telling you here. They can help you get to a place of strength. That place of strength is the place you stage your fight from if you want to succeed.

Come on, sweet lady. Head up, face forward. Wipe the tears, put on your makeup and brush your hair. This thing isn't over yet. People have recovered from much worse. You can do this.

God Bless,
Gimble

Hello everyone,

I had an anxiety attack over the weekend. Needed to see a doctor who gave me something to calm down, but he warned me: it was only for a temporary relief, and needed to work at the root of the problem. Yeah, right!

Anyway, I know what is getting me anxious. I have decided to go through with the meeting with the MC tomorrow night. That's what is getting me anxious - I don't know what will happen.

I do agree with some of you, that I can't fight for my M and not make waves.

I know my H wants us to meet the MC to help us with the breakup. I am not yet there and don't want to necessarily collaborate, because I don't feel we have done the work to get us there - at the breakup point. I see my H depressed, withdrawn, and not able to put distance with the OW, and H sees as the only solution to the problem - breaking up. He says he doesn't want to fight me, but I don't feel like going down without a fight, I don't feel our relationship has been given the chance it should. I want him to consider working on our relationship, by looking at the obstacles, facing them, etc. but he doesn't want to and I can't say I have ever really confronted my H on anything serious, and now I feel like doing it, and I know all hell will break out.

What have I got to lose? He won't like my not wanting to collaborate, and he will be mad as hell - is that what I am afraid of? His reaction if I say I don't want to collaborate? He can certainly leave anyway - can't stop him, but it won't be with my help - because I don't agree with him.

But, what's the point of fighting him? Will it just make life twice as hell, I wonder? Will the kids pay the price? Would this be the biggest LB ever, and make the whole situation worst, and really blow any chance possible? Should I stick with Plan A? I do feel my Giver has had enough, but my Taker taking over isn't any better. How can strike a balance?

My suggestion is to give us a delay - say 2-3 months - and let's see what we can find out. If it leads to a breakup, fine! There is a problem here: my H being in bad faith and deciding to just put in time, and this will get me even madder. But, then again, who knows?

I just reread myself, and I don't think I am thinking straight - I think I am being totally unrealistic. I wish I knew what to do!

Please give me your thoughts.

Thanks.
Lunamare

Luna -- have you read up on Plan B? Do you think you are ready to go straight to that?

I don't see where trying to stay in Plan A will do anything more than let your husband cake-eat, and only make you feel worse and worse and worse. I agree that he only wants to go to marriage counseling to let them "help" with the breakup so that you will be "okay." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I also get the clear impression that your husband is totally, utterly living in Fantasyland. In his mind, he thinks MC will help you ease out of the marriage, that you and the children will be just fine, and that you will still be there as his best friend anytime he feels like coming around to see you.

Do you see how this just prolongs his fantasy of having two (or more) women in his life? Hey, I'll be he thinks you could all take a house by the sea together, too!

He needs a big cold dose of reality. He thinks he wants a divorce? He needs to see what divorce would REALLY be like so he can wake up from the idiotic fantasy version of divorce he's got in his head.

If you divorce:

Luna will NOT be his friend. (With friends like this, who needs enemies?)

Luna will NOT be in ANY part of his life except maybe to discuss child support payments.

The children will NOT "be all right." They will be devastated and will never entirely lose the effects of their father abandoning the family for a girlfriend. Their relationship with him will be permanently damaged and *may* even cease to exist.

He will permanently lose his family and Luna's extended family. The house he knows will be gone, along with everything in it. He will have ONLY his girlfriend and whatever she's got. Period.

This is what Plan B does. It gives a huge slap of reality to a WS who is living out a riduculous fantasy of what divorce is like. That's why it works so well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Please do give it some thought. Plan B will give you some relief and some peace and some sense of control over a rotten situation, and you desperately need those things right now.
Mulan