Thanks for the advice all and your support.

Just wanted to give you an update as how my weekend went. WW has been very nice. She has not been this nice for months. Yesterday, she started talking future about us for the first time in months also. She was talking about taking summer vacation and started planning it, she was talking about house projects and things we can do down the road, she was discussing taking a mini vaction over Easter, etc. Of course I am very excited that she is acting the way she is but on the otherhand, I am being very cautious and taking what she is says with a grain of salt.

Is this normal WW behavior? Is it possible that she is peaking out of the fog?

Opt.

Yes, that's very good and you are right to be cautious because fog will most likely roll in again. So enjoy it while you can.

She may have it in her mind right now that she can maintain contact and still have a good marriage, which of course we know to be false.

Keep up the good work.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong>

Is this normal WW behavior? Is it possible that she is peaking out of the fog?

Opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opt, this is pretty common, however, it does not mean the end of the affair. The affair is still an issue. And always will be as long as they work together. You can pretty much expect her moods to go up and down throughout the affair. But, until contact ENDS, it can't be seen as a positive sign of fog lifting. The fog will lift when a) the affair ends and b) contact ends.

Update:
We talked R some last night. WW has still been very nice. I told WW last night that I noticed a positive difference in her and I asked her if she was feeling much better. She said yes. She said her GF (the one I exposed to) talked to her on Saturday about marriage and working things out. (GF did not let WW know that I exposed to her). WW wife says she wants to work things out and make it better. I can actually see an effort on her part. She is talking/planning vacations, planning house projects that we can do together, and just being nice around me. Also, she has not had any impromtu outing for a week now. And, we have had some minor physical contact (touching) in bed that was never even thought of a week ago. She did say she was worried about me getting over her A. She is worried that 6 months from now it will be eating away at me too much. What advice/reassureance can I give her on that?

Also, we talked very briefly about the OM. It is still very painful for her to talk about him. I told her again that in order to recover there can be NC. She agrees but I don't think she realizes the importance of it yet. She asked to end the conversation after only a couple minutes talking about OM and NC. I asked her again to quit her job but she said she would not do that.

I know the fog can still rule back in and I am somewhat prepared when it does. I know it will be extremely hard though.

From what I have said here, what do you think of her actions?

God Bless. Opt.

I am completely blown away! This is amazing to me. Very hopeful.

As far as reassuring her that you can forgive, tell her exactly how you feel. I would assume that you have felt a lot of pain over this, yes? Also mention that in order to forgive you will need complete honesty in the future; no more double-lives.

You might also suggest a phone session with Harley or Jennifer. It may be better for them to explain the NC for life thing to her.

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

I agree very much with legato's advice to contact the Harleys. At this stage I would ask her to send him a no contact letter stating that the affair was a mistake and to never ever contact her again.

The letter should be written together. We have samples on this forum. [i have the link on my home computer and will post it when I get home] Her reaction to your request will give you a good gage of how committed she is to ending her affair.

Good job, Opt! Hang in there!

Legato and Mel - Thanks so much for the support!!

I agree about the counseling with the Harelys. Last time I recommended it she shot it down but maybe she will give it a try now since she is in a different state of mind.

Mel, yes, post the link for the sample NC letters when you get a chance. I agree that her reaction to that will tell me alot about whether she is serious or not.

Opt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong> Legato and Mel - Thanks so much for the support!!

I agree about the counseling with the Harelys. Last time I recommended it she shot it down but maybe she will give it a try now since she is in a different state of mind.

Mel, yes, post the link for the sample NC letters when you get a chance. I agree that her reaction to that will tell me alot about whether she is serious or not.

Opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opt, here is the link for no contact letter samples. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=018918#000002

Might I suggest that you initially contact Harley on your own? Let him assess your situation and then you can decide IF OR WHEN to bring your wife into the picture. She may not be open to counseling just yet.

Options,

This is mayor progress so far – I’m só glad for you! However, as you’ve said, be also prepared for setbacks… This is like a roller coaster ride for both the BS and WS and sometimes there might be two steps forward and three steps backwards.

In the meantime, until your W realizes the importance of complete NC with OM and until she becomes willing to give up her job, the link I’ve posted to you on a previous post e.g. ”Guidelines: How to do NC at work” can be of some help to both of you.

As you know, your W will go through withdrawal as soon as she stops contact with the OM. This thread: A quick start guide about WITHDRAWAL will be of much help & insight to you. It also contains important quotes on withdrawal from Dr Harley's pages on this website.

Blessings,
Suzet

Thanks Suzet,

Well the roller coaster ride has started. Last night W was distant and cold again. I knew there would be setbacks but this stinks..... I guess, at least we had two good days that were positive. I hope/pray the bad days do not go on long.

I wanted to show her how to do NC at work last night but it was not the right time. I think today (I'll take all your advice) I am going to look into telephone counseling for me. I would love to have her there to but she is not ready. I like the idea of them getting the background from me before we do it together (if we do).

The other thing is that I know she does not understand the importance of NC. I did not ask her to do a NC letter last night. I just gave her the space she needed. I have stated the importance of NC many times though. I might state it again in a letter stressing how much it hurts me when she has contact and it just puts strain on our family/kids and prolongs/setbacks recovery. Good idea or bad?

Opt.

Yes options, you must definitely express your feelings of hurt and pain to your W… She must know how you feel - very important. However, don’t LB and communicate with her by using “I messages” e.g. ”It hurts me when you…; ”It’s painful to me if you…” etc.. Don’t’ accuse her of being selfish etc. Just state how you feel and how her behavior makes you feel and leave it at that.

Just a thought: Maybe your W has started to go through some type of withdrawal already because she knows and realizes she needs to cut off contact with OM...

Edited to add:
Often the WS in the fog and early withdrawal sees the BS as the ‘meanie’ who prevents him/her from having contact with his/her ‘lover’. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> (I felt the same way for some time after my near-EA ended <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ). In your W’s case, she probably sees you now as the 'meanie' who is trying to separate her from her ‘lover’ and she will resents you for this for some time... Yes options, I know this is SO very much unfair towards you as the BS, but this will start to get better as soon as recovery begins and the fog starts to lift.

Hang in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Options, the very best thing you can do for your marriage right now is call up Steve Harley and get an appointment. He can assess your situation and guide you in the right direction. He is worth every penny and won't waste your time with nonsense. He can guide you in how to approach this NC issue.

This is such a critical issue and I cannot express to you how much hell you will be in for if you concede in any way on this front. Better to tough it out and do it right now than endure years of hell and on and off again contact.

So, please consider contacting Harley. With all of the specifics of your situation, he can help you navigate this very important, but sensitive area.

I agree Suzet. I think she might realize a little that she needs to end contact (but I don't think she has). I read your Quick start guide about WITHDRAWAL and I can relate to that. It seems she is experiencing some of what is stated there. The fact that she was out of the fog for two days and now back in seem to be positive for what I read. Could she be in withdrawl even if she is still having some contact with him. I know the contact is more limited if she is still having contact.

Opt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Could she be in withdrawal even if she is still having some contact with him. I know the contact is more limited if she is still having contact.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes options, in my experience it IS possible... After my near-EA ended and I decided to cut-off all deliberate contact with XOM, I started to experience intense withdrawal and depression. My contact during the friendship with OM was mostly on e-mail and I only had occasional accidental contact with him during working hours after the friendship ended.

Although I’m completely recovered now and although accidental contact with him don’t have an affect on me anymore (except for some slight anxiousness), it took me very long time to reach this state of indifference… I know my recovery and withdrawal (AND recovery for my H) would have been so much faster if it was possible for me to quit my job and find another one. This is why it is recommended so strongly by Dr Harley (and all the other members on this board) that the WS must quit the job and even move to another state if possible…

Recovery and withdrawal is very hard if there is still accidental contact with the OP. I'm speaking from experience... I remember during my own withdrawal and recovery, every time I accidentally saw or bumped into XOM at work, I went a few steps back in my personal recovery and became more depressed for some time again. Because of this, it also took me a long time to overcome residual feelings for XOM… This is what will happen to your W if she continues working at the same company than OM. Continuous contact (even if the contact is occasional and not deliberate) is hard on both the FWS and BS in recovery. I really hope your W will leave her job – it will be the best for everyone.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could she be in withdrawl even if she is still having some contact with him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You remember the graph thing that I discussed with you? I used to try and correlate WW's "plot" with phone call minutes (I had access to phone records, unbeknownst) and I found little or no correlation. However, due to my conversations with her best friend, I knew when she was completely freaking out due to lack of phone contact, unreturned calls, etc. It was essentially a one-sided EA, at least that is what her friend called it.

So the answer to your question is maybe or maybe not. Sorry, data is inconclusive.

I remember that I used to try and draw conclusions as to what was happening based upon her mood and eventually I gave up as it just didn't seem to be of any use and was making me crazy.

You are on the rollercoaster with her right now. She will be up and down. You try to stay up as much as possible. If you go to Plan B then you are getting off the rollercoaster but this can send you into withdrawl due to NC with WW. If it comes down to Plan B is necessary, look into getting anti-depressants beforehand for yourself before you commit to Plan B as they can help you through the withdrawl.

Mind you, I am hoping that Plan B is not necessary but just want to get you prepared in case it becomes so.

Suzet,
Can you answer a few questions for me? If not that is ok. Your situation seems very similar to mine except there was some PA too with my situation. What helped you the most in committing to NC contact? What was the best thing your H could have done for you while going through withdrawl and/or recovery? How did you find out about MB/MB discussion forum and when did you become receptive to it or other counseling? How long was it until you had feelings for H again?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember during my own withdrawal and recovery, every time I accidentally saw or bumped into XOM at work, I went a few steps back in my personal recovery and became more depressed for some time again. Because of this, it also took me a long time to overcome residual feelings for XOM… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you had accidental contact with XOM and went a few steps back, how long did the depression remain? In other words I am trying to see what the roller coaster ride may be like.

Also, I signed up for MB IC today. One of my goals is to get her into some kind of counseling too. I think that would go a long way.

Opt.

Options,

I just want to let you know I saw your post this morning and I will give a full response on your questions later today (it’s just a bit busy at work currently). In the meantime, it will help if you can read this post/thread I send to another BH a few months ago. This post/thread will provide some background on my situation and also help to answer some of your questions.

Suzet

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Your situation seems very similar to mine except there was some PA too with my situation</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Options, if you read the link my previous post, you will see the betrayal was mostly in my thoughts and feelings. I’m lucky that I had the chance to stop my involvement with XOM before it progressed into a full EA. By instinct and will, I kept myself from acting on my feelings and committing too much of myself into the inappropriate relationship. Certain internal factors (like my anxiousness, conscience, strong religion, fear of hurting my H, fear of the consequences, issues from childhood etc) also helped prevented me from acting on my feelings... However, my experience helped me to understand how easily people can slip into A’s if not very cautious and careful... Although my involvement hasn’t yet progressed to a serious level, the feelings I developed (even sexual feelings) were extremely intense… So intense that it scared me… And because of this, I can now also have empathy for the weaknesses of people who get caught up in PA’s as well. From my own experience I know how hard it is and how much willpower it take NOT to act on those feelings… And I know now A’s can even happen to ‘good’, religious people with a high conscience and strong values. I’m ashamed to admit today that before my inappropriate involvement, I was one of those people who was very judgmental towards people in A’s… I thought something like this could never happen to me, but my experience taught my humbleness… </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What helped you the most in committing to NC contact?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>- The fact that I’ve made the willful choice in the first place to commit myself to NC and the motivation within myself to do this

- This website and reading/posting on these discussion boards was of tremendous help to realize the importance of NC, commit myself to NC and to stay committed to NC (during all the time I only had one setback and contacted OM after he broke NC and send me an e-mail).

- The help of my wonderful, Christian counselor at work (she also become a great friend & confidant of mine)

- The support from my H, mother and close female friends and encouragement to stay committed to NC.

- My strong religion & conscience and desire to stay obedient to God

- Fear of hurting my H and fear of the consequences should I break NC

- Commitment to my H and M

- Fear & anxiousness of making a mistake again and slip into an A with OM
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>What was the best thing your H could have done for you while going through withdrawal and/or recovery?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">- By filling my most important EN’s and being there for me.

- By being my greatest friend and confidant and encouraging me to confide in him.

- By creating an environment & atmosphere that allows me to feel safe and secure to reveal my innermost feelings and fears to him.

- Honesty from him regarding hisinnermost thoughts and feelings. Openness and honesty from the BS (without LB’ing!) also helps the WS to open up without the fear of being criticized in a negative way.

- By being my ‘sounding-board’ and listening to me with empathy, understanding & care.

- By communicating his negative feelings and feelings of hurt, pain etc. too without being judgmental or love bursting.

- Realization from my H that I’m going through stages and feelings of guilt, self-rejection etc. during withdrawal/recovery.

- By making me feel accepted and reminding & assuring me that I’ve made a mistake, but has decided to turn away and follow the right path and are forgiven by both him and God.

- By assuring and telling me that I must feel free to talk to him when I needs it of feels like it and by encouraging me to speak to him whenever I feel ‘down’.

- By asking about my feelings and show interest and concern about my feelings out of his own. (My H never did this, but I would love if my H could ask me about my feelings, without me initiating the subject...) Many times I just kept silent out of fear that I would hurt my H or upset him.

- By using me as his greatest friend and confidant too e.g. being honest with me and sharing his feelings with me.

Options, from the points above it must be clear to you that some of my biggest EN’s is 1) in dept-communication 2) honesty & openness about feelings etc. so I don’t know if all the points will be applicable on your W as well. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How did you find out about MB/MB discussion forum and when did you become receptive to it or other counseling?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I discovered MBers after I’ve done a search on opposite sex friendships and inappropriate relationships. I was looking for some guidance and answers and I discovered MB accidentally (however, I believe it was a God send!). I became receptive to it almost immediately and it helped to lift the fog. MBers and other articles on the web, also made me realize I was almost involved in an EA and that I needed to had NC with OM if I want to recover. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>How long was it until you had feelings for H again? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>I just want to make it clear that I never felt that I don’t love my or that I don’t have feelings for him anymore… However, for some time during my fog and withdrawal I did feel very confused about my feelings for XOM and started to question my feelings for my H (I felt confused for a few months). This was all part of the ‘fog’ and my own lack of knowledge and understanding about the nature of love and the differences between infatuation; “falling” in love and mature love in a M. I didn’t understand how it could be possible to develop such deep “in love” feelings for another man while you still loving your own spouse… I thought it couldn’t be possible to have feelings for two people at the same time.

People and especially WS’s often confuse real, stable & mature love (which can only be obtained through a long, committed relationship like a M) with the first stages of immature, puppy love when people “fall” in love and when hormones and chemicals are running high… These are 2 completely different types of love (mature & immature) and many people often expect to always have those “in love” feelings for their partner. They think something is wrong with the M if those euphoric feelings wears off… When the WS then get involved with someone else and experience those early stages of love & feelings again, they start to say to their spouses: “I love you, but I’m not in love with you”. I thought the same thing after my inappropriate friendship ended, but I have learned and grown and realized that I was indeed “in love” with my H, but in a more mature way. I have learned there is a difference between “falling” in love and “being” in love: Spouses don’t stop to love each other, but instead, love transforms and develops into something more mature and stable. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>When you had accidental contact with XOM and went a few steps back, how long did the depression remain? In other words I am trying to see what the roller coaster ride may be like.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>In the beginning, just after contact with OM stopped, I felt almost constantly depressed and obsessed for a period of 5 months. During these 5 months, I just felt worse and very anxious after contact. I realized I needed help and went back to my counselor. I was put on anti-dep’s and started ‘real’ recovery. As time has went by, I could get distance from my feelings for OM and the feelings started to fade very slowly over a period of time. After received medication, I still went a few steps back in withdrawal after accidental contact, but I was more able to handle it and to recover from it again. In the beginning, it took me a few days to recover from the contact, but as time goes by and my feelings faded, the amount of time to recover became shorter and shorter. After 1 year of NC it approximately take 1 or 2 days to recover and later the days became hours. I’m on the stage now that - if I bump in OM - I feel slightly anxious and it just take a few minutes to recover from the anxiousness. No depression anymore!

I hope this could help. Sorry so long! Feel free to ask any more questions you may have to help give you insight into the head of a FWW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suzet

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

NC is not a negotiable issue. It is the only tried and true way to end a relationship. As long as you have contact with that other person you have the possiblity of continuing in an affair relationship. As a past WS no contact is the hardest road for people to follow who are in a reationship. It is like a drug being with that other person. Very addictive and hard to break. You care for that person and ending that relationship will effect you for the rest of your life. But be honest. Do you want your marriage to survive. Your spouse does not deserve to be the second fiddle. I have several friends who will not give up their relationships. Even though they know it is wrong. Again its an addiction. Be kind to your spouse if you don't want to continue your marriage and relationship. Let them go and have the opportunity to love someone who respects them, values them and is totally commmitted to them. You should not be allowed to have your cake and eat it too at someone elses expense. No contact is possible. It is a mind over matter issue. When you have the urge to contact the other person call a good friend, call your spouse for that matter and get your mind transfixed on the things that are important and worthwhile. Inch by inch and day by the day. The withdrawal will be possible. Feed your soul with wonderful food for thoughts about how great marriage is....develop yourself to be the mate that your spouse always wanted. We don't live in a fairy tale but life can have a happily ever after if we work towards being the best we can be.....for ourself and for our family.

NC is not a negotiable issue. It is the only tried and true way to end a relationship. As long as you have contact with that other person you have the possiblity of continuing in an affair relationship. As a past WS no contact is the hardest road for people to follow who are in a reationship. It is like a drug being with that other person. Very addictive and hard to break. You care for that person and ending that relationship will effect you for the rest of your life. But be honest. Do you want your marriage to survive. Your spouse does not deserve to be the second fiddle. I have several friends who will not give up their relationships. Even though they know it is wrong. Again its an addiction. Be kind to your spouse if you don't want to continue your marriage and relationship. Let them go and have the opportunity to love someone who respects them, values them and is totally commmitted to them. You should not be allowed to have your cake and eat it too at someone elses expense. No contact is possible. It is a mind over matter issue. When you have the urge to contact the other person call a good friend, call your spouse for that matter and get your mind transfixed on the things that are important and worthwhile. Inch by inch and day by the day. The withdrawal will be possible. Feed your soul with wonderful food for thoughts about how great marriage is....develop yourself to be the mate that your spouse always wanted. We don't live in a fairy tale but life can have a happily ever after if we work towards being the best we can be.....for ourself and for our family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />