Gypsy,

Harley says "Plan A is for the betrayed spouse to negotiate with the wayward spouse to totally separate from the lover without angry outbursts, disrespect, and demands. These three Love Busters not only ruin any effort to reach a negotiated settlement..."

Read here:

Negotiating NC

Gypsy,

Also, options is BS, not WS. He is asking how to go about persuading WW to commit to NC.

I agree very much with Gypsy and so does Harley. Ending contact is simply not a negotiable issue. How we may GET THERE is certainly negotiable and that is the point of Plan A and Plan B, however, the end result of ending all contact is NOT NEGOTIABLE. In other words, the PROCESS is negotiable, the GOAL is not. Ending contact is a boundary issue that the BS should never ever forfeit.

I think this is an important point for all BS's to fully understand, because anything less is a death of a thousand cuts and a marital recovery that is not likely to happen.

Harley adamantly insists that contact ends:

"So when I counsel couples who want to reconcile after an affair, I insist on total separation of the unfaithful spouse and the lover with extraordinary precautions to guarantee that they never see or talk to each other again."

Melody,

The issue is not whether contact must cease. Yes, commitment to NC is non-negotiable when both spouses wish to commit to marriage but in Plan A, BS is usually commited to working on marriage and WS is "on the fence".

So the issue is how to negotiate NC when WS is reluctant to commit to NC, thinking perhaps, as my wife did, that they can remain friends, or are "trying to find themselves" or "don't know what they want". The issue is whether to try and achive commitment to NC by making demands and issuing ultimatums, which Harley explicitly advises against, (search on 'negotiate') here, or rather by persuasion and demonstration of ability to meet needs that went unmet before. And, I might add, trying to persuade WS that NC is in their own interest and that addiction will continue as long as contact is ongoing.

I've been getting into this a lot with people lately so I bookmarked that link to back up my, or rather, Harley's position. If Harley has changed his positon on this, I'm not aware of it but I'm happy to stand corrected if you have new information.

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

legato, but being adamant that contact ends does not neccessitate a love buster. Of course it shouldn't be done with love busters, that goes without saying. I don't disagree with you that it should not be done with lovebusters, but no one, as far as I have seen, has ever suggested otherwise. It simply is not a negotiable issue.

But folks have to remain very clear on this point, NC is simply not a negotiable issue and that is exactly what Harley says in the article to which you posted the link. That is where I gleaned that quote from.

I get scared when I see folks act wishy washy about this, because we have lots of broken hearted, confused newbies here who are under great pressure to allow contact to continue and might be inclined to take the easier, softer way out. Sadly, the easier, softer way is always the hardest way in the long run, it is the path to hell because it usually means YEARS of contact.

Melody,

Also,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How we may GET THERE is certainly negotiable and that is the point of Plan A and Plan B </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At the risk of picking nit, and this is merely my view, during Plan A we negotiate. When Plan B begins, negotiations have broken down and are terminated. Then, I agree, NC is no longer a bargaining point. WS must unconditionally surrender and agree to BS's terms in order to return to marraige and to end Plan B.

Also, I don't follow your point regarding "how we get there". To me, how you get to commitment to NC is... by commiting to NC; where does the negotiating for "how to" come in?

I don't think that we are actually in disagreement here. I completely buy into Harley principles; I'm not one of those who think that these principles don't apply in their case. But we may interpret Harley a bit differently, but not by much, methinks.

I try to advise per my understanding of MB principles as I think you do also, so in that we agree.

Ken

As I say, I think that we actually agree. In order for the marriage to recover, absolute NC is essential.

During Plan A, BS neg..., no, I'm not going to use the N word again... BS tries to respectfully persuade WS to recommit to marriage and does not waver as regards their "view" that absolute NC for life is required in order for recovery to occur.

If BS fails to persuade after a reasonable amount of time and Plan B becomes necessary, then all persuasive efforts cease.

So, just to make it crystal clear when I say negotiate I don't mean to imply that a compromiuse is possible as in, "OK, you can send him a Christmas card at Christmas.' - no, absolutely NC is required.

It seems that perhaps the word 'negotiate' is the stumbling block. That word seems to imply to some here that a compromise is possible. That is certainly not what Harley means and I would never advise anyone to compromise on this issue.

So to sum up my view - Negotiate for NC, but never compromise on it. We agree?

oops

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by legato:
<strong>

So, just to make it crystal clear when I say negotiate I don't mean to imply that a compromiuse is possible as in, "OK, you can send him a Christmas card at Christmas.' - no, absolutely NC is required.

It seems that perhaps the word 'negotiate' is the stumbling block. That word seems to imply to some here that a compromise is possible. That is certainly not what Harley means and I would never advise anyone to compromise on this issue.

So to sum up my view - Negotiate for NC, but never compromise on it. We agree? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gotcha, and I agree wholeheartedly. I wonder if "faciliate" would be a better word? Negotiate implies that there are options.

legato, so then on what basis were you disagreeing with Gypsy if you acknowledge that, in fact, no contact is not negotiable? That is exactly what she said.

Right, I think the word negotiate is throwing some people.

But you know, 'facilitate' is still too wishy-washy - especially in Texas. Sounds like some kinda [censored]-footin' yankee word. And if there's one thing I caint stand, it's a pussyfooter.

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by legato:
<strong> But you know, 'facilitate' is still too wishy-washy - especially in Texas. Sounds like some kinda [censored]-footin' yankee word. And if there's one thing I caint stand, it's a pussyfooter. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">har, har, that is a first, I am framing this post!!

Mel<----the wishy washy [censored] footer! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I learnt that big word from one of those silly foreigners around here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> so then on what basis were you disagreeing with Gypsy </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been advising Options on his other thread, who is a BS and currently in Plan A, that he should be negototiating for NC as per Harley. He wanted MB veterans to help him understand how to negotiate for NC, hence the name of this new thread. Gypsy seemed to think that Options was a WS who wanted to negotiate NC. Go back and read Gypsy's post and I think you'll see what I mean. So I wanted to make Gypsy aware that Harley uses the N word and that options is BS, not WS, for clarification.

I am not necesarily disagreeing with Gypsy; I am merely pointing out that Harley recommends that the BS try to negotiate committment to ANCFL (absolute no contact for life) while in Plan A.

Perhaps that is a better way to state position - negotiate for commitment to ANCFL. Then there is no ambiguity.

So, since I am advising options to negotiate for NC and someone else's response is that "NC is not negotiable" then there 'appears" to be a disagreement. I seek merely to clarify.

Yes, I did catch that she thought Options was a WS, I was referring to your disagreement with her statement that nc is non-negotiable. But I think we have clarified that point and agree that it is, in fact, a non-negotiable goal.

Legato/Mel - Thanks for the dialog on the facilating NC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
That helps me understand it more too. I am clear on it. I agree that NC is an absolute must. What I have always wondered is the best strategy to take for my situation to achieve that goal. I still seem to think that exposure at her work would not be a good idea at this time because of my particular situation. We live in a very small town surrounded by very small towns and everybody gosips and wants to know everybody elses business. It just would not be good. I don't have any dout that it would be the most powerful tool to end the A but it would be very damaging. I just think I can save that tool for later if necessary.

Update: WW has been ok the yesterday and today. She is not really cold or depressed but she is not actually making an attempt to make things better. However, she did email me at work and made dinner for the family tonight which was different than the past. I don't know if she is still having contact w/ OM or not. Well, ok, I am sure she is having contact with him at work but other than work she hasn't contacted him from what I can tell (recently). She is going away this weekend with a friend which worries me. I am still doing a good plan A. I bought her some of her favorite flows yesterday. She seemed to like them. I got a nice "Thank You" for them.

I have a IC appointment with Dr. Harley tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes.

thanks for posting! opt.

Suzet, Thanks for your post too. Your situation was similar but yet very different. Your A never got PA and you always seemed to have feelings for your H. My WW has told me she does not have feelings for me anymore and her A was EA and PA. I am just now really realizing how big the hill is that I am having to climb. I can't see the top right now and I am starting to get winded....God give me strength.

I found your post and link very insightful. Thanks again. I have to read both again to digest it better.

Thanks, Opt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong> She is going away this weekend with a friend which worries me. I am still doing a good plan A. I bought her some of her favorite flows yesterday. She seemed to like them. I got a nice "Thank You" for them.

I have a IC appointment with Dr. Harley tomorrow. I will let you know how it goes.

thanks for posting! opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Opt,

Why is she going away for the weekend? I find that very troublesome. And even more than that, I find your compliance worrisome. While you sure can't hold a gun to her head and make her stay home, you can certainly express your dismay and explain to her that this is not a good thing for your marriage. It is not helpful at all in restoring the trust she has destroyed.

I would try and arrange to go with her if I were you. Make it a family event or a couples event if you can.

What time is your appt with Harley? I can't tell you how relieved I am that you are counseling with him, Opt. You will be AMAZED at how intuitive he is. He has an uncanny ability to grasp subtle traits about a situation. I think you will be very relieved to get his guidance. He is a real pro.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Your situation was similar but yet very different. Your A never got PA and you always seemed to have feelings for your H. My WW has told me she does not have feelings for me anymore and her A was EA and PA.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Options, although my inappropriate involvement with XOM and everything that was affected by it was very painful in so many ways, I certainly now that God also took the situation and used it positively in my life… XOM was never aware of it, but my involvement with him was the ‘catalyst’ that on the end forced me to go into IC and explore & resolve all my issues around childhood (serious issues I have repressed for years). If I look back now, I can really see God’s grace & protection in this whole process. For instance, just after my feelings and involvement with OM escalated to a level where I was so anxious & emotionally confused that I didn’t know how to handle it anymore, I went to a counselor and started to explore my childhood issues. A week after this, my H discovered one of OM’s e-mails (d-day) and the inappropriateness of the friendship. Until today, I strongly believe that this happening was the hand of God that brought everything out in the open and protected me & my H from more damaging and further involvement with XOM…

Options, as I’ve said to you before, during early withdrawal and recovery it was extremely difficult for me to work at the same company as XOM. I was very frustrated about my circumstances and fruitless attempts in finding another job, especially after my H lost his job due to victimization and unfair dismissal. In the beginning I felt fearful at work almost all the time. Just the thought of bumping into OM made me feel very anxious and stressed. But today I'm so glad to say I have overcome all those issues, but it was not an easy path at all and not something I will recommend for anyone... However, I believe God allowed the “thorn” to remain in my life and today I’m a much stronger person partly because of that… We may never know all the ‘why's’ of what God allows in our lives but I believe He allows everything for a purpose and can let everything (even the bad things) work out for our good if we just trust Him, have faith in Him & stay obedient to Him... The following verse from Script (once given to me by ForeverHers) have very personal meaning for me:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Options, the other factor that definitely helped me and my H to recover in spite of the accidental contact with XOM, is 1) the fact that my involvement stopped before anything serious happened and before it could turn into a full EA and 2) the fact that by instinct and will I kept myself from acting on my feelings and committing too much of myself into the relationship… I think if it wasn’t for the above two things me and my H wouldn’t be able to fully recover while still working at the same company.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> I am just now really realizing how big the hill is that I am having to climb. I can't see the top right now and I am starting to get winded....God give me strength.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Options, God will give you strength and He will be there to help and guide if you just put your full trust in Him.. If you feel like giving up…then speak to Him… If you feel you heart is so full of pain and sadness that you can’t continue anymore…speak to Him. Options, you’re on the right place for help and guidance. As you’ve already noticed, there are many people here who care for you… Many BS’s who have experienced the same pain and hurt from betrayal than you and can help you to get through this! You’re in good hands with the BS’s currently posting to you, but the help and guidance from a professional is also very important. I’m very glad you’ve made an appointment with Dr Harley. Keep us updated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings and prayers,
Suzet

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>