Update:

I had a talk w/ WW last night. I confronted her about the phone bill. She just agreed and said I know and I am sorry.

Then WW began to say she does not feel anything is getting better. I told her nothing will get better until NC has been established. She said sometimes she wants to have NC and other times she "looks at the big picture and doesn't know how things can get better." She was using terms from HN/HN and was saying that everything I do is a negative deposit in my love bank. Even me just walking in the room is negative she said. She said all the nice things (plan A) have been negative deposits. The more I tried to understand it from her perspective, the more it became apparent that she is overwhelmed with guilt. She said "every time I see you I get reminded of the bad things I have done and those are the negative deposits". Hence, every time I do something nice for her I think it makes her feel more guilty. How can I help her overcome the guilt she is feeling now? Is there a way? If she can not feel as guilty around me then she would be able to see how things can get better.

WW said you have won. Game over. You have me trapped. You hold the key to my job, all my friendships, and my family. I told her it was not a game and I will just do anything I can to save our marriage. Also, I told her that “I don’t want you to feel trapped. If you are miserable here and want to live with OM then you are an adult and can make your own choice. I am not your jailer. I don’t want you to leave at all and I love you very much. I want us to have a happy marriage and family”. WW said no I don’t want to leave and live with OM. (Well don’t tell me you are trapped then………)

Also, WW said she has thought about how to have NC with OM but does not know how. I gave her all of my ideas but she doesn’t like them. She still doesn’t want to quit her job, or transfer to a different building. I then said well you must think your job is more important than our marriage. She said no I don’t.

Wow!! Where do I go from here? I am still working on getting an appointment with SH for Wed. I should know for sure on Monday.

Opt.

Opt, I could just hug you for the SUPERB job you did in this discussion! You deftly hit all of the pertinent points without lovebusting. And no, YOU are not lovebusting her at all. A lovebuster is a disrespectful judgment, angry outburst, demand. Walking into a room is none of those things.

What she means is that she is being eaten alive with with guilt from her own choices, like you said. That is not a lovebuster! She SHOULD feel guilt, Opt. And you are doing such an excellent Plan A that she is not so defensive around you that she is shieled from her guilt. If you were lovebusting her, she would be busy defending herself instead of feeling guilt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she can not feel as guilty around me then she would be able to see how things can get better.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She will stop feeling guilt when she stops doing things that she should feel guilty about. See, you are her victim, so of course, she will feel guilty when she looks at you.

SHE SHOULD.

You cannot and should not try to alleviate that, Opt. Guilt is a very powerful motivator for change. Don't try and alleviate it!

Things won't get better until she ends contact and guilt can help facilitate that. Once she ends contact, she will stop feeling so much guilt, Opt.

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Translation service:


I had a talk w/ WW last night. I confronted her about the phone bill. She just agreed and said I know and I am sorry.

TRANSLATION: "I am sorry I got caught."

Then WW began to say she does not feel anything is getting better.

TRANSLATION: "I feel stupid for my choices about now. I have really screwed things up!"

She said sometimes she wants to have NC and other times she "looks at the big picture and doesn't know how things can get better."

TRANSLATION: "Cake please?"

She said all the nice things (plan A) have been negative deposits.

TRANSLATION: "I feel guilty."

She said "every time I see you I get reminded of the bad things I have done and those are the negative deposits".

TRANSLATION: "You are doing an awesome Plan A. Don't stop. Plan A is working to confuse me about how OM compares to you."

WW said you have won. Game over. You have me trapped. You hold the key to my job, all my friendships, and my family.

TRANSLATION: "I see how this affair has me trapped."

WW said no I don’t want to leave and live with OM.

TRANSLATION: "Plan A is working. Plan A has made me think / feel that remaining married might be good for me. Plan A has created doubts about my affair."

Also, WW said she has thought about how to have NC with OM but does not know how.

TRANSLATION: "Cake please?"

I then said well you must think your job is more important than our marriage. She said no I don’t.

TRANSLATION: "Plan A is working. Putting a wedge in the affair."

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:


You cannot and should not try to alleviate that, Opt. Guilt is a very powerful motivator for change. Don't try and alleviate it!

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huge D I T T O

Guilt is good for guilty people. If she did NOT feel guilt, she would be a sociopath.

Allow her to experience her well-earned guilt. It is useful for her.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told her that “I don’t want you to feel trapped. If you are miserable here and want to live with OM then you are an adult and can make your own choice. I am not your jailer. I don’t want you to leave at all and I love you very much. I want us to have a happy marriage and family”.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is EXCELLENT. You done good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The next step (after your counseling with SH) .... might be to express to her that the continued contact with OM is killing your love for her (not yet, too premature, but later)

BECAUSE you have opened the gates and said ---> "I am not your jailer. Leave if you must, but I want you to stay and be my wife ." ... (emphasis on "my")

*in the future* you may need to say ---> "Stay here *only* if you are no longer in an affair."

This is important because you have pre-established that you are NOT trying to control her, but trying to control what happends TO YOU.

A very clear distinction!

GOOD JOB!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 09:49 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

OPtions,

Melody and Pep have hit on an important issue. You should continue your Plan A. You almost need to ignore the behavior that flows from your wife's guilt.

An example from my life: The day of our first MC was a huge emotional test for my wife. We went in and the male MC asked us why we were there. I just looked at my wife. She got that "deer in the headlights" look on her face. She had to tell a total stranger what she'd done.

After this hour of facing her shame, we went home and she basically went to bed for the entire day. She was depressed from her guilt and shame.

I was very worried. Kept asking her if ahe was OK and if I could do anything. Finally I called the MC and asked him. He said she is overwhelmed by her guilt. "Be supportive but don't try and tell her not to feel guilty. She needs to feel the guilt. It's part of her process"

It was tough for me I wanted to "fix it" and make her feel great, be the protector. I didn't.

Hopefully this helps.

Mac

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

OPtions,

Melody and Pep have hit on an important issue. You should continue your Plan A. You almost need to ignore the behavior that flows from your wife's guilt.

An example from my life: The day of our first MC was a huge emotional test for my wife. We went in and the male MC asked us why we were there. I just loked at my wife. She got that "deer in the headlights" look on her face. Shad to tell a total stranger what she'd done.

After this hour of facing her shame, we went home and she basically went to bed for the entire day. She was depressed from her guilt and shame.

I was very worried. Kept asking her if ahe was OK and if I could do anything. Finally I called the MCand asked him. He said she is overwhelmed by her guilt. "Be supportive but don't try and tell her not to feel guilty. She needs to feel the guilt. It's part of her process"

It was tough for me I wanted to "fix it" and make her feel great, be the protector. I didn't.

Hopefully this helps.

Mac

Thanks Mel, Pep and Mac....I wouldn't be in the position I am now if it weren't for your advice and support...Thank you with everything!

So much info where do I start. I haven't been able to post earlier because I have been plan A all day. WW was nice most of the day a little cold here and there. Also, I forgot to tell you last night she actually put her arm around me when we were sleeping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Not sure where that came from.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by Mel: You cannot and should not try to alleviate that, Opt. Guilt is a very powerful motivator for change. Don't try and alleviate it!

Things won't get better until she ends contact and guilt can help facilitate that. Once she ends contact, she will stop feeling so much guilt, Opt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for this info. Last night, I was actually trying to make her not feel guilty. I WON'T make that mistake again. I very much see your point now where her feeling guilty is a good thing to help stop contact. I didn't realize that last night. Thanks for the advice on that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Posted by Pep: The next step (after your counseling with SH) .... might be to express to her that the continued contact with OM is killing your love for her (not yet, too premature, but later)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been thinking about this because I can feel my love for her fading. WW actually said to me last night "I don't see how I can have any love points left in my account. I must be at a big negative with you. I haven't done anything nice for you except wash your clothes." I didn't have a good come back for that one. I just told her that I love her very much. Pep, you are right though, unless things turn around and I start getting some love points from her, I will have to address this with her. NC will deposit love points.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by Mac: Melody and Pep have hit on an important issue. You should continue your Plan A. You almost need to ignore the behavior that flows from your wife's guilt.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mac, I appreciated that your reaction was the same as mine about WW guilt. I will continue to work hard at Plan A and let her bath in her feeling of guilt. I am more motivated now with Plan A knowing that it seems to be working.

I was thinking about printing off Suzet's guidelines of NC at work and giving it to her. What do you all think?

Opt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong>

I was thinking about printing off Suzet's guidelines of NC at work and giving it to her. What do you all think?

Opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She cannot withdraw from her addiction unless contact ends. Because of that, recovery WILL NOT START until and unless contact ends.

To do otherwise would doom you to YEARS more of on again, off again adultery. Every time she sees him puts her back to Day 1 of recovery. It also puts you back to day 1 of recovery.

You would have to live your life wondering every day if she resumed contact at work. You will never regain trust, nor will you have any peace.

To me, that would be like dying a death of a thousand cuts, Opt.

It would be devastating to EVER give her the impression that you would settle for this. Settling for any contact will doom you to YEARS OF HELL. And she will take the easier, softer way if given the opportunity.

Don't even give her the idea that you would even consider such an arrangement. Don't even consider it! And don't let her know that it has ever crossed your mind!

Trust me, opt, you will live to regret it - just don't do it.

<small>[ March 13, 2005, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Ok, I won't do it Mel. You are right, I would be living everyday wondering if she was in contact with him. Right now, I can't see how contact will end though. I guess she has to commit to it somehow. Then, basically, the only way is to change jobs. I hope SH can help a lot on this.

Opt.

Options, just start planting seeds and let SH guide you through this. But nothing less than no contact will EVER SUFFICE. For her to continue to work there would be like sending a recovering alcoholic in the bar every day and "hoping for the best."

Expecting her to stare at a cold beer every day and not take a drink is an unnrealistic expectation.

In the meantime, don't ever ever give her the impression that you would settle for less. If you give her such an option, she will TAKE IT. And you will be here for years trying to break up an affair.

Frankly, if I had to choose to between divorce and "limited" contact, I would choose divorce based on what I have seen around here over the years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Posted by Mel: Frankly, if I had to choose to between divorce and "limited" contact, I would choose divorce based on what I have seen around here over the years.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree Mel. Looking at it now, I think it would be like dying a slow painful death... I just don't know what it is going to take to make it happen. I am going to ask for SH's advice on this. Have you heard his view on this? I think her hearing from someone else like SH would help.

Opt.

Opt, his view is that the WS must do whatever it takes to end contact, even if that means quitting a job or moving across the country.

Here are Harley's very wise words:

Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through hell. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 08:26 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

SH confirmed WW's appointment for Wednesday. That is great but it is going to be a long wait until then for me.....I hope it goes well.

I am feeling really down today.

Opt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by options:
<strong> SH confirmed WW's appointment for Wednesday. That is great but it is going to be a long wait until then for me.....I hope it goes well.

I am feeling really down today.

Opt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Opt, you are fully entitled to feel down. You have been battered for some time now. But just know that you are headed in the right direction. There have been many positive developments in your situation, so you have no reason to be hopeless.

Sorry you are feeling down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks Mel for the support!! It is just hard for me to see any light ahead. This is the worst day I have had for some time now. I am not sure why. WW was pretty cold/distant last night and this morning (and I tried to expect it). I hear what you are saying that I am heading in the right direction but for me it is not moving fast enough... I really don't know how much longer I can take it. It is soooo hard to keep giving everything. It is like being rejected over and over and over and over. I am not giving up though. I guess I just need to vent.

Opt.

Options,

Hang in there - you're almost there. I am so impressed with how quickly this is moving.

Yes, I think SH will be very effective in explaining why NC is absolutely necessary.

It's too bad about her job but a job is only a job. This, unfortunately is the consequence of turning to someone else for her needs.

She won't be able to do much in the way of meeting your needs right away but as you say, commitment to NC will go a long way towards giving you enough encouragement to see this through. She's very close, I think. She's reading, she's thinking, she's understanding, she's feeling guilt - all very good signs!

Keep up the good work!

Thanks Legato! BUT, tonight I told her I had her SH appointment confirmed for Wednesday and she said "How much is this? I am only doing this once! That is crazy. I will do it one time only." The she walked away. I don't know if she is in depression now or what but she is rude,cold,distant,angry/mean all at me. And, she is very short/no patience with the kids.

Opt.

Yes, she's angry and probably depressed. Just be glad that she will do it the one time. She may change her mind about that once she reailzes how effective SH is.

Expect her to be all over the place. But you remain steadfast. She is ruled by erratic emotions but you are a man on a mission.

Really, trust me on this. You are in very good shape. If she bolts or threatens to back out of SH session do not be concerned. It's her choice- you can't control her. You follow through and do your part.

She has taken the first steps. Realize that this is very hard on her. She feels horrible, I'm sure. This is painful for her. She may be in withdrawl right now. She may need anti-depressants. You might talk with SH about ADs for her.

Just love her and do not be concerned about her negativity - it will pass.

Ask God for strength and courage. I believe He has gotten you this far and He's not done with you yet.