I am weary. Plan A is hard. It's even harder when they don't live with you. Trying to be the nice loving spouse is hard. When I do talk to him, it's so tempting to love bust.

Well, right now, I'm taking a break. Almost every contact we have is either for his benefit or isn't initiated by him. WH came to DS's championship sports things to bask in the reflected glory. He took DD and I to a basketball game because somebody gave him 3 tickets. He came for Super Bowl because the big screen TV he ordered hadn't come in yet. He came for Christmas and Valentines Day because he was lonely and didn't have a better offer. OW must have something happening on Mondays because WH is ALWAYS available then. I feel used and I am tired of it.

I'm not going into Plan B. No intermediaries or going dark. I'm going into Plan A.5 I'll be friendly, pleasant and happy. I'm just not calling him to initiate anything. If he would like to do something or come over, I'll think about it and probably do it. Will I call him about kid stuff, the house, the dogs or anything? Not if I can help it. In an emergency, a nice, impersonal email will do. I have a couple of weeks here where nothing is happening and I don't need to talk to him. Of course, I yearn for contact with my husband. Desperately. Unfortunately, the only one out there right now is the Wayward Husband, the OW's boyfriend.

Maybe someday, he'll be able to do things that aren't suspect and are done from his heart. Maybe someday, he'll actually call his kids just to talk to them or say good night. He's not there and who knows when he will be. This plan may not be MB, but it's giving me some peace.

GG.

Your "Plan A.5" is the same as 'giving up and hoping instead of doing' IMO.

Thats fine, and you have every right to do that.

As long as you know what you're doing.

It must be really hard for you.

All blessings.

I don't know, Bob. Is Plan A calling him all the time to make things happen? Is it whipping the kids to talk to their dad? Is it checking in with him all the time and initiating all the contact?

That is what I've been doing for the past 2 months. Do you think I should be doing it more?

I am tired and I don't have a clue what I'm doing. If I thought I was making progress, I'd keep at it. At this point, it seems like I can only get so deep into WH before I reach a brick wall. I'm just going to do this for a week or so before I reevaluated it all.

Grape-

I suck at Plan B...as I'm sure you've read...but I fricken ROCKED...if I do say so myself.

I actually did initiate most of the activities that we did together.....I invited him over to watch a movie, I took him dinner up to his work (Because he works until 9 pm), I made him blueberry muffins and took them to him for no reason. I did lots of little things I knew he would like.

I was the SF machine, I know everyone can't do *that* but, I was like the energizer bunny on crack in that department.....Stanley said it was some kind of hyper-sexuality, something about another woman getting the sperm....I'm not saying that right...but anyway.

What are his top 3 EN's???? I am good at this stuff...now someone tell me how to be good at not doing it.

I went to Odd Lots (A Closeout store) tonight, and I just kept thinking...Oh, WH needs a coat rack for his house, or Oh.....WH would like this...and then thinking....why, why do I suck at this? I'm always thinking of him...what he would like. I mean I look at things that I would like, but I've always (my entire life) had a problem buying things for myself, I feel guilty, no clue why...when I was single I rarely bought anything for myself, even if I have money to spare, I think.....should I really spend that much money?? I have lived in my house for 6 months and wouldn't spend the money on a sweeper, I kept borrowing the neighbors (My old house was all hard wood floors), finally I bought one like last week, a really nice one for $49.99....and I still felt guilty about it...I'm goofy.

So you tell me his EN's and I'll brainstorm....take your break hon, you probably need it, not everyone is hyper take care of everyone person....I can't seem to stop. I sit around and think of things I can do for someone I love...but that has centered around WH for so long that I can't seem to get off of that track.

-Caren

Caren, I would appreciate the help. Besides, it will take your mind off your own situation.

WH has never filled out an EN questionaire. It's all guesswork. It don't think he never knows what his needs are. What I thought were his needs certainly changed after he started the A. He's been emotionally removed from us for almost a year...it's been working like a mad man, physical absent or deep into the affair.

I think he has a need for admiration for his work. I always comment about how valuable he is to his company and how good he is at his job. This is difficult because its a job that sucks the life out of him. He has no boundary with it. He is available for every international call, email or meeting. It's always been bad but with email, conference call, international manufacturing, it's become a whole lot worse. He's on a treadmill and is afraid to stop. We're talking 12 hour/day in the building and 2-3 more at home.

I think he wants to be looked up to and needed. I believe OW is not very educated and is in a job much inferior to WH. I doubt if she'd ever been overseas before when they met on the extended business trip. He could awe her with his knowledge of that area. Amusing because it was stuff we discovered together.

He has a need to dump his family. He likes his apartment. For a quiet, sterile place. He likes being by himself. He never calls the kids. Seldom calls me unless he needs something.

I don't know what else. Maybe he wants to be in charge but here he doesn't do anything. SF has been a bust. The first time I tried to seduce him, I made some head way and hit the brick wall. He said he wasn't interested in any women, yeah right. He has been on his guard ever since and hasn't let me close. It doesn't matter how nice I am, what I wear, or how I act.

In spite of myself, I just called his work and cell number. No answer to each. Just left a message, "It's me, just wondered what you're up to."

Can you figure any of this out?

He just returned my call. Not very satisfying. He was over at our local brewery with some work people. There was a time, he'd call and invite me over. He doesn't want to meet someplace because he said he's already had enough beer. But he was on his way into Walmart. Asked what the kids are doing but didn't want to see them.

He says he isn't seeing OW except at work. I asked if I called her would she agree. There was silent and he mumbled, I don't care. I waited and then asked, You don't care what she thinks or you don't care what I think? I asked if he understood my need to talk about it. I said I know that he can compartimentalize things but I can't.

This is why I should call. It just makes me mad and depressed. We are making no progress. I don't know how to Plan A this. I lose a little of myself. I don't think he want me. I don't think he wants our family unless we can do something for him.

Grape-

Okay here we go.

I think he has a need for admiration for his work.

He has a need for admiration PERIOD. Play on that, whenever you get the chance, any little thing he does. Those seats for the game you talked about "Wow, it's really great that you could get these seats, you have some good connections"

Superbowl....(Do you know anything about football?) If not, this is a prime opportunity to marvel at his knowledge and ask questions. I can't think of a specific question....but you could ask questions and then say comment about his vast knowledge of the game...blah blah blah. If you know something about football this won't work LMAO.

I didn't realize that my WH had this "Admiration need", but then I said "You know WH, I've always been proud of you, proud to have you as my husband, and proud of the man you were" He said "Why are you telling me that now?" I said "I just don't think I've ever told you that before.".....he was calling me 15 minutes later.

So something similar might work.

He has a need to dump his family. He likes his apartment. For a quiet, sterile place. He likes being by himself. He never calls the kids. Seldom calls me unless he needs something. LOL we can't work with these needs....that's just a WS thing.

I don't know what else. Maybe he wants to be in charge but here he doesn't do anything. SF has been a bust. The first time I tried to seduce him, I made some head way and hit the brick wall. He said he wasn't interested in any women, yeah right. He has been on his guard ever since and hasn't let me close. It doesn't matter how nice I am, what I wear, or how I act.

Okay you're gonna have to explain a little better here. Is there something that he has maybe wanted you to do, but you weren't into.....a role play thing or something? It doesn't have to be full on seduction, you could like have a thong on with a short skirt and *accidentally* bend over...don't let him think you did it for him....you're gonna have to give me more info on what you've tried/what he likes.....this should be a reasonably easy one to get around.

My WH shut me down A LOT regarding SF.....He would say "NO!" and push me off and I just was relentless, I'd take my shirt off and push him back on the couch, and start kissing him, and whisper in his ear...."Saying No is such a waste of such a f*cking hot mouth".....(Sorry probably too graphic)....I believe that most men want a lady in the street, and a freak in the bed (Like the song says). Leave him an erotic message on his voicemail....hell I've even had phone sex with him...I've watched porn (WHICH I HATE!!!!!!) with him and acted like it was just the sexiest thing in the world....I had him doing me all over the house that night....even the kitchen counter...LMAO!!!! So lemme know some details, and I can probably hook you up in this area.....Just a warning....don't take a no as a hit to your self esteem....I never did, it just made me more overt.

-Caren

Tried the SF thing. Did not work. Absoltely did not work. I'll put more thought into it tomorrow. The man has always had weird things about sex. I just can't go into right now. A bit too fragile.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by grapegirl:
<strong> I don't know, Bob. Is Plan A calling him all the time to make things happen? Is it whipping the kids to talk to their dad? Is it checking in with him all the time and initiating all the contact?

That is what I've been doing for the past 2 months. Do you think I should be doing it more?

I am tired and I don't have a clue what I'm doing. If I thought I was making progress, I'd keep at it. At this point, it seems like I can only get so deep into WH before I reach a brick wall. I'm just going to do this for a week or so before I reevaluated it all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GG I am sorry you find yourself in your situation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I do not knwo how plan A can work if your spouse is not able to see your efforts directly.

As I understand it , Plan B is the option for those situations, but a wise head like Ark^^ could help you with that.

I was not trying to advise you to do anything in particular, just that you should recognise that you are choosing to give up when there are still tools in the bag ( like planB) and ( if you haven;t used this) exposure.

You have the right to do what you choose to do.

Just be sure you know what you are choosing.

All blessings.

Grape-

I'm sorry, if this is taking too big a toll on you then maybe you do need to take a big break from it all. It can be really emotionally draining,You sound so exhausted and you may be running on empty by now.......So do your A.5, lemme know if you need anything.

I forget that all women aren't bulldozers like I am.

-Caren

YOu've just made me realise I am in Plan A.5. We are separated, have contact, I am quite nice to him etc etc. He is also nicer to me. He was so awful to live with leading up the our separation, it was almost a relief. Something will have to give sooner or later but I almost feel this suits me until a change of circumstances are forced upon me. Just so you know, you won't be alone in your unique plan!!

Why do you refuse plan B?

ark

It's morning here and at least I've at a little rest. Things are always better in the light of day. My DD wants to go out and have a little fun soon.

I did initiate contact with WH last night. He often seems to be available but never calls. He and I went out for a beer and an appetizer. He always asks about the kids but seldom talks to them. It's like I'm his translator and intermediatary. We talk and get a long fine as long as we stay away from relationship stuff.

He likes things the way they are now. Maybe emotionally he's always been outside looking in on our family and now he's just made it physical too. He wants his space. His job is still time-consuming and demanding. He says he has a lot to think about. I'm fine with the thinking process. He SAYS he's not seeing OW except at work. I take that at face value. Sometimes, I think he wants to do his thing and when he's done, slip back into our lives as if nothing ever happened.

For many, many years, I've been the steamroller of the family and now I'm tired. My rolemodels for marriage were strong husband and supportive wife. My dad was a controlling kind of guy and my mom was a "yes, dear" person. It didn't take long in my own marriage to realize that my WH was not going to be the strong husband. There was a vacuum there. Over the years, I evolved into the mover and shaker of the relationship. Not controlling but more the director. Somebody has to do it. WH has made me what I am. Believe me, I'd prefer more balance.

I have been offered a break and I'm going to take it. A young friend needs someone to accompany her on a spring break trip. We're going to London, UK and staying with her relatives. This is a long trip from the Rocky Mountains. WH has agreed to be with the kids for the week. This could jumpstart something. At that point, WH will have not lived here for 3 months. He might decide he misses being at our house and with the family or decide he prefers his own space or a combo of the first 2 where he stays in his apartment but wants to see his kids more. More contact with the kids would be good.

I'm excited to be going away for a bit. Historically at our house, I have taken a trip by myself with or to visit friends every year. I always come back refreshed and a better wife and mother. This was the first year in a long time I haven't gone away. And actually, as a family, we didn't have any vacation at all this year either. I love to travel. It's the legacy of being the descendant of pioneers. I always want to see new things. I will come back rested and with a much better attitude.

As for Plan B, I'm just not quite ready for it yet. The relationship hasn't quite reached that point. There are too many things happening in our family where we need contact. I think I just need a little space to gather my strength. Maybe Plan B later.

GG:

Sounds good. You do whatever you need to do to get through. Just remember this:

YOu take 100% responsibility for what happens in your life. You are solely responsible for your actions and happiness. If you just remember to accept 100% responsibility for everything that happens in your life, you regain complete control of your life. If you feel sad and depressed b/c your WH is not "doing" the things you hoped, you should just remember that you completely control what happens to you.

Good luck..grape. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I guess I worry most about what the lesson is that the children are learning...

what they are learning about how a good father acts

what they are learning about how a good husband acts

what they are learning about the importance of commitment and what it means....

what they are learning about what should be acceptable and what should not be acceptable...

I don't think it is acceptable that he CHOOSES for no good God given reason on this earth to ignore his children...
and nor do I believe that you should act as go between and fixer upper and contact keeper....

you protect him from the consequances of his actions...and I fear what that teaches the children....

his behavior is unnaccetable....in my opinion...and what is the mixed message sent when mom goes out for appetizers and beer with a man that writes off his own children except when conveiniant....

the trip sound awesome...

ARK

My kids are learning a great deal, good and bad. That's one reason I have been very honest with them. They know that what their dad is doing is very wrong and very hurtful. It's been so long since they've had attention from their dad, they don't really know what it is. He doesn't really know how to communicate with them. WH has always been a shadow man. What they've learned is that the kids and I are a cohesive unit. They know that WE are the family. We depend on each other. We are tighter and stronger. Dad is gravy.

The kids that live at home are in full agreement that I should keep trying with their dad. They enable me. DS is more than willing to be with his sister so I can go out. They are wary of him. The boys at least see him for what he is. DD wants to love him. Fortunately, she's got strong males, her brothers and grandpa, around to show her all men aren't idiots.

Ark^^, you've raised good questions. These are points I want to address with my kids. Thank you.

Yes, I'm so looking forward to the trip. I love London.

grapegirl...

quit rewarding your husband with beer and appetizers....

you have much much better things to do with your time...and it is much much much too valuable to be wasted on him....

WH has always been a shadow man.
change that
WH has always chosen to be a shadow man..

we all know those babies don't come with a hand-book cause God knows I searched all the stuff they sent home with me with the first....

time for him to reap what his choices have sown....

I say you go to london...
and I say you forget about some wordy lovey dovey plan B letter when you return....
and cut yourself free...

which doesn't mean I'm giving up on you grapegirl...

I think you dragging him around in the wagon behind you is a weight you have carried long enough...

time to drop the handle..and see if picks himself or chooses to stay EXACTLY where he has landed himself...

ARK

***I did initiate contact with WH last night. He often seems to be available but never calls.***

There's no reason why he should. He knows all he has to do is sit back and wait and sooner or later, you'll call him.

***He and I went out for a beer and an appetizer.***

He ignores you and his children for a girlfriend, but still gets to enjoy dates with you. Tell me again why he should end this arrangment?

***He always asks about the kids but seldom talks to them. It's like I'm his translator and intermediatary.***

Again -- as long as he's got the translator and intermediary, why bother to change anything? He can avoid the guilt trip that would come with dealing directly with kids and still tell himself he's a good dad because he asked about them.

***We talk and get a long fine as long as we stay away from relationship stuff.***

Is this the kind of marriage you are willing to settle for? He sure is, and he's dragging you right along. If it's not what you want, why are you being a part of it?

***He likes things the way they are now.***

You bet he does! All the fun of dating TWO women with none of the responsibility of marriage. Perfect.

***Maybe emotionally he's always been outside looking in on our family and now he's just made it physical too. He wants his space.***

Or maybe he's just a WS who managed to persuade his wife into accepting this arrangement whether she likes it or not. You are making excuses for him here.

***His job is still time-consuming and demanding.***

His job allows him to put aside his role of husband and father and be someone else for half his life. That's why he's so addicted to it.

***He says he has a lot to think about.***

Translation: I have a lot of time I want to spend with OW, so leave me alone until I need another family fix.

***I'm fine with the thinking process. He SAYS he's not seeing OW except at work. I take that at face value.***

Oh, grapegirl . . .

***Sometimes, I think he wants to do his thing and when he's done, slip back into our lives as if nothing ever happened.***

Of course! You are exactly right about this! This IS what he wants -- and after he comes back and you think the marriage is in recovery, he'll go right back out and do it again. Why not? You tolerated it the first time, you got over it, and you took him back. Why shouldn't you tolerate it again and take him back again after he's had his fun and is ready to come home this time, too?

***WH has made me what I am. Believe me, I'd prefer more balance.***

What you describe is far more parent-child than husband-wife, and my own personal theory is that this is a tailor-made dynamic for the "child" partner to go off and have an affair.

***I have been offered a break and I'm going to take it. A young friend needs someone to accompany her on a spring break trip. We're going to London, UK and staying with her relatives. This is a long trip from the Rocky Mountains. WH has agreed to be with the kids for the week.***

Where is OW going to be while you're out of the country and he's got the kids? What can you do about that while you're gone? Or is it okay with you that your kids are around their father's girlfriend?

***This could jumpstart something. At that point, WH will have not lived here for 3 months. He might decide he misses being at our house and with the family or decide he prefers his own space or a combo of the first 2 where he stays in his apartment but wants to see his kids more. More contact with the kids would be good.***

This arrangement will only feed his fantasy that he can still play house with the kids now and then, even while he's still in contact with his OW, and you'll be okay with it.

A real Plan B, on the other hand, might *actually* jumpstart something. The arrangment you describe is playing right into his hands and givning this WS exactly what HE wants.

***As for Plan B, I'm just not quite ready for it yet. The relationship hasn't quite reached that point. There are too many things happening in our family where we need contact. I think I just need a little space to gather my strength. Maybe Plan B later.***

Maybe . . . but you also run the risk of waking up one morning and being filled with loathing for him at what he has willingly done to your family -- and for yourself, too, for allowing yourself and your kids to be subjected to his sordid actions for far too long.

Just remember -- with your actions right now, you are enabling his affair and feeding his fantasy of having two women to date with none of the responsibilities of marriage. And he will do this as long as you are willing to be a part of it. Why shouldn't he? You've made it clear that you'll tolerate it and that's exactly what he wants. It's great for him, but it's destroying you.

Protect yourself. He's not going to do it. Protect yourself.
Mulan

Shhhhh, Ark^^! Mimi'll 2x4 me.

You are absolutely right. All through the years, he's brought in the $ and I've done everything else. I suppose with the miracle of child and spousal support, he can still bring in the $ and I can get that 400 lb gorilla off my back.

If our marriage continues, it's going to be very different. My IC, who is not really our MC but more like a joint IC, has asked me how much a person can change and can WH change enough to meet my needs. I like the analogy of dropping the handle of the wagon. I have been pulling him along for a long time.

In 3 weeks, I leave on my trip. I'm doing A.5 until then. When I come back, I'm sure I will have a new and better attitude. After 9 days with his kids, maybe WH will have a different attitude too. Interestingly, my MIL is worried about having her son around the kids while I'm gone. At first, she thought it meant he was coming home. Now she worries that WH is going to give them enough attention. I tried to reassure her that an 18 year old will probably not burn down the house.

Like they say As you sow, shall you reap.

BTW: lol, WH has has been buying the beer and appetizers.

Mulan, you snuck your post in while I was starting dinner. You're saying all the things that I've been thinking. I've felt tired, overburdened and foggy. I've need some objectivity. I want some distance away from everybody to refresh myself.

I agree that WH is a complete cakeeater. Plan A has to end when I stop enabling that. I'm not strong enough right now for a successful Plan B. Reading Caren's posts make me shudder. But heck, I can probably never call WH and he'd never notice it. You're right. The family fixes need to stop. I need to end my translation business. I need to not have my WH fix.

The kids and I have talked about the possiblity of OW. They are adament that they do not want to be around her. The logistics are against it. She lives an hour away and has 3 kids of her own. I can see WH taking her to his apartment while DS is with his sister. DS is a lot bigger and a lot stronger than his dad, has his own car, and a rigid value system. DS could literally pick WH up and throw him out. He could make OW into a pretzel. At 18, he can legally be the adult presence in the house. He is very protective of his sister. No guarantees but we will be having many talks before I go.

And I'm already filled with loathing for what has happened in our family. All last summer, I felt like I/we needed to do some counseling. It took the sh*t hitting the fan to make that happen. My IC told me to think about the things I wanted from a husband and a marriage and what it would take to get there from where we are. The brick wall I hit every time I'm with WH makes me believe that nothing is working. Plan B might be the only thing.