I have not had opportunity to read over your posts.

You probably know what direction I will take.

I'm trying not to jump to any conclusions and start with my yelling and screaming and 2X4s.

Before I respond, do want help towards moving to Recovery or moving towards D? I'm serious. I want an honest answer.

As Mortarman reported on Caren' s post, I never wanted to D my H. That is my bias.

<small>[ February 19, 2005, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Grape:

I just read your first post. I am wondering what your feelings are about your WH and your M? Why do PLAN A if you feel like it is an effort? I wanted to do it. I knew that I had made mistakes that left my M open to outside forces. I made improvements in myself that I felt were needed regardless of whether I remained married or not. I acknowledged that I had not been attentive to my H and had not been meeting his needs.

No excuse for him having an A. However, I decided that I would at least do my part in rectifying the marital wrongs. I would do all that I could do. It would be his choice as to whether he would make his amends in response to my actions.

You say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm taking a break </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I realized was that I had already been taking a break from being a wife. PYT (pretty, young, thing) stepped in and tried to take over my duties.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your "Plan A.5" is the same as 'giving up and hoping instead of doing' </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with Mr. Bob on this. Of course, like he says, it's your choice. But you might as well do PLAN B. What you are doing is probably enabling the A.....

You asked:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is Plan A calling him all the time to make things happen? Is it whipping the kids to talk to their dad? Is it checking in with him all the time and initiating all the contact </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would say NO. This is not PLAN A. PLAN A is developing a PLAN to meet his ENs. What are those needs that are being met by the OW? What are the needs that you failed to meet (according to MB if you agree to this system).

This is PLAN A. Caren's got it......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually did initiate most of the activities that we did together.....I invited him over to watch a movie, I took him dinner up to his work (Because he works until 9 pm), I made him blueberry muffins and took them to him for no reason. I did lots of little things I knew he would like </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It doesn't matter how nice I am, what I wear, or how I act.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you know this? He won't let on while he's in the fog. You've got to keep this up. I thought you were working on your GODDESS POWERS? Was it you that was stroking his arm?

On the other hand, I think he is deceiving you about only seeing the OW at work. I would recommend exposure as being a part of your plan. Only if I were you, I would try to catch him with her, even at the apartment. This seems to be too comfortable for him.

Caren is the PLAN A QUEEN. I did the stuff she did in the SF department but certainly wouldn't be able to talk about it on the forum...LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I she and I are BULLDOZERS, using her description.

I don't understand ARK's response to you. Regardless of your WH's faults, your children will be devastated if and when there is an actual divorce. Children want their parents together. I would say try working on your marriage before giving up on it. You married your H with his personality flaws. You have your own. We've discussed this before. He does have his strengths in that he provides for them and is there for them. It may not be LEAVE IT TO BEAVER but I get the picture that he loves them and they love him.

I agree with a lot that MULAN says. I think your WH will be with the OW while you are away. He will feel freer knowing that you are so far away. I'll never forget my son waking up in the middle of the night and finding his father not at home while I was away at a conference. He was a teenager but how awful for him......

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This arrangement will only feed his fantasy that he can still play house with the kids now and then, even while he's still in contact with his OW, and you'll be okay with it </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also agree with MULAN on this. Well said....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> our marriage continues, it's going to be very different. My IC, who is not really our MC but more like a joint IC, has asked me how much a person can change and can WH change enough to meet my needs. I like the analogy of dropping the handle of the wagon. I have been pulling him along for a long time.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Grape, I'm not sure what point the counselor is making. You can only change yourself and not your husband or anyone else. I think you do have control issues if you have the expectation of getting someone else to change to be who you want him to be. I don't mean to be hurtful. That may sound harsh but I do think this is a boundary issue. Most likely, he must feel that the OW is accepting of him which is a reasonable expectation, I think. If you don't want this man for who he is, it may be time to end the R. Does this make sense?

I still say PLAN A, not A.5, and then PLAN B. However, compare yourself to Caren to see that PLAN A has not been implemented yet.

Mimi, I can't say yet whether it's divorce or recovery I want. When I look in my heart, I know I love this man. I know I want to be with him. I know that we're better (at least for me) together than apart. I know that I want a whole family.

I wonder if we have a deep enough, good enough, solid enough foundation in our marriage to support this. Has our life been a sham? Bad things have been going on for some time. We should have addressed our problems many years ago. It's only after the A split our relationship wide open that I started asking questions. How long will it take him to open up? We can't do any work when there is only silence or lies or deception on one end. Are we working towards the same goal? What will it take to satisfy me? I want a husband who wants to be with me. A partner, someone to share with. Can I fulfil the needs he has? Can he fulfil my needs? Can he give up his secrecy? Can he set boundaries at work so it is less intrusive into our lives? Can we have openness and honesty? Does he want to live with us? What makes his apartment so attractive? Does he want to be a father to his children? Can we align our priorities? Can he/has he given up OW? And if she goes, is there another waiting in the wings?

Sometimes, I can't see the forest for the trees. That's one reason why I'm glad I can go away to get a little perspective. I cannot make everything better by myself. Does it all go down a dark hole? He has to make his contribution. So far, it's all been pretty one sided. I have much to think about.

I would say that you focus too much on him and what he needs to do. That was the focus of your entire response.

The important questions now are: How do you need to change? What can you do differently now? How did you contribute to the problems in the marriage? It's about you changing first....

It's Saturday night. Do we get to get maudalin?

I'm thinking about old times. I'm thinking about the man who never gave me an engagment ring. Was I a feminist or didn't he care. Not even enough to plan a honeymoon or wear his wedding ring. The guy who was evasive about what he was doing when I worked swing shift about 2 years after we were married. Yet another story. The man who left me alone all the time while he played tennis with his friend Ron on weekend nights. The man who didn't complain when I started school again or went to discos with my girlfriends. The man who didn't celebrate birthdays or holidays. But he was also the man who tried his damnest to win me back after I had an affair that he encouraged me to have. We did get back together and moved 1500 miles away from all of it. I got pregnant and he started having hip problems. The hips got progressively worse. The job more intense. He never took a day off when any of his kids were born. The day I miscarried, I layed in our bedroom alone until I begged him to take me to the hospital. During my last pregnancy, we went to Hawaii and I found porn pixs in his camera bag. I had a horrible IC who said it was all my fault. We never really worked that porn problem out. He'd disappear for hours and I'd never know where he was. Once we got online with the computer, (remember the Internet and computers are a relatively recent thing) he was up until all hours. When they were small, he'd take the kids to work on Saturday and then to the store to buy them a toy. He never played ball with them, never learned to talk with them. The neighbor taught them to ride bikes. It was like pulling teeth to get him to a school or sport event. We never went to church. WH's become more remote through the years.

I got involved with the kids and my community. I was influential in the community, president or chair of many things. I took parenting classes. I got involved in Hawaiian dancing. I worked in classrooms. I kept the house, cooked all the time and planted a marvelous garden. I had lots of friends. I'd plan date nights and he'd decide not to go. Sex was for his pleasure and convenience. When we moved, I backed off on my involvement but still worked with my kids, planned our travel, cooked great meals, was witty and interesting. I could never get him involved with sports (except DS#2's football), school or socializing with other couples. I supported his work. I enabled him to work like he does at his job but tried to get him involved. We traveled a lot. I was the parent. I glued the family.

Was the problem with me? Should I have said, "dude, get involved with your family?" Should I complained more about his work hours? Should I have done more counseling? Should I have confronted these issues when I had 3 small kids in the house? Should I have found a way through the silence and reserve to make our sex life better? Should I have found a way to meet his ENs when he wouldn't even talk about them?

Yes, to all of those. Where would it have lead to? Every time I asked myself the question, in my heart, I knew, I know I love him.

Is the problem too longstanding? Have we avoided conflict for too long? Did he marry me because he was afraid to say no? I can forget the wrongs. It looks ominous when written out sequenctial order. Maybe I should delete this tomorrow.

Shhhhh, Ark^^! Mimi'll 2x4 me.

better duck now cause I think she's on to us... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I don't understand ARK's response to you. Regardless of your WH's faults, your children will be devastated if and when there is an actual divorce.

mimi..my reponse is based soley on grapesgirl's decision to NOT to plan B....

I'm not going to power struggle with her if that's her choice....

if she chooses plan B she has my full support...as does anyone...

what worries me right now...is rewarding the actions of a bad father in the eyes of the children...

dad can ignore
dad can continue to CHOOSE to not be involved in our lives
dad can continue to CHOOSE to never have to learn how to reach us..talk to us...
dad can continue to CHOOSE to treat us if we are seperate from him and not of the family....

and dad can do these things all he wants...
what concerns me is mom ...
showing dad this friendly warm engaging mom....

accepting this bad bad behavior in her life and ours..

being so nice and so friendly to a man who CHOOSES to treat us as if we don't matter...

that's what concerns me mimi and grapegirl....

that the girls will seek out men that aren't plugged in...cause that's what they know...or seek men to fullfill the father role that only engages them peripherally BUT he's RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF THEM

I find grapegirls husband writing off of the children so distasteful...that on some levels it is more grotesque than the affair....

this is not to call him satan himself...I'm not saying that...

but to not call your children
to leave the house and NOT see your children unless it's mom who arranges..informs ..and executes.....pathetic....

and it is my opinion that plan aing someone that disregards the children is more dangerous to the childrens psyche....
than setting firm boundaries that say if you WS want to get to me...

you gotta go through the children and do right by them first and formost...
because inspite of our differences these children are not to be disregarded....

gotto scoot...more later...
ad please don't think grapegirl I view your family/children as a messed up collective of children...and you just a going belly up mom pining for their dad...that's not what I see..at all...
it's just I think you need to put boundaries up tightly around you over the signals he sends out...or the lack there of...

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 04:26 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Grape:

Don't erase your post before I can respond. I am busy this morning.

Grape:

You certainly have gone through lots of pain in this R. There's no doubt about that.

My question to you before we go on basically is this: What good memories do you have about your R with him?

The way you portray your lifetime with him is ALL BAD. So why do you want to be with him now? Why do you love him? What is there about him that it is lovable to you?

I will say that there were many years early on in my R that my H was very much in love with me. He is back in love with me again.

Let me hear from you.

Mimi, I had to sleep on this last night. I kept trying to think of the good things. When I thought of the good things, I tried to figure out what actually came from WH. I still haven't gotten it all yet.

First, it's hard to see the good right now. I hurt a lot. Our MC asked us to list 5 things we like about each other in one of our session. Amazingly, we could both do it quickly. I've tried to think back to those things.

We've been together for over 30 years. It's almost like we've grownup together. I can still remember the spark that passed between us when we met. I can still remember and feel the love. Once of the best things about WH is that he's always been supportive. I've always taken it as supportive but maybe it was conflict avoidance, too. He was happy when I went back to school. He never complained when my dancing took up a lot of time. He always wanted me to be home with the kids. He wanted us to have a nice house, good cars, top notch things and great vacations. Like when I bought a new sewing machine, it costs more than I wanted to spend but had all the features I wanted. WH asked why I didn't buy the even more expensive top of the line model. He always taken, gladly taken the responsiblity for supporting our family and he's done it very well.

He will always do things when asked but will seldom volunteer. If I ask him to pick up the kids, he will but otherwise he don't just do it. When I went out, when I came back hours later, the remains of dinner, leftovers, pots, dirty dishes, would still be sitting on the stove from after he, the last person to eat, would help himself. He'd never put the kids to bed or supervise homework. He's been known to sit in front of a pile of clean laundry, pick his and fold it and leave the rest.

We've had some great trips to exotic places. Until his last business trip, he was always happy to have me tagalong and share it with him. He enjoyed me planning things for us.

He was proud of our children, my garden, our home. He let me do what I wanted to do. Probably a very bad sign. He has never, ever complained about money.

He can be companionable to be around. We have the same political view. We use to have the same life philosophies. He can be very kind. He can be handsome.

Is this a start? I need to run now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We've been together for over 30 years. It's almost like we've grownup together. I can still remember the spark that passed between us when we met. I can still remember and feel the love. Once of the best things about WH is that he's always been supportive. I've always taken it as supportive but maybe it was conflict avoidance, too. He was happy when I went back to school. He never complained when my dancing took up a lot of time. He always wanted me to be home with the kids. He wanted us to have a nice house, good cars, top notch things and great vacations. Like when I bought a new sewing machine, it costs more than I wanted to spend but had all the features I wanted. WH asked why I didn't buy the even more expensive top of the line model. He always taken, gladly taken the responsiblity for supporting our family and he's done it very well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">GRAPE!!! YOU ARE ME! THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD SAY ABOUT MY H AND MY M! T

This is saying millions, Grape. Less than 10% of Rs can ever be described this way. How blessed we have been, GRAPE to have had this in our lives. Your H will never, ever be able to replace YOU with anyone else. There are so many connections between the two of you. He has loved you just as much as you love him. He has shown his love largely by providing for you and the family. That's the only way that he has known how to do it. There's millions of men who won't come close to this or would even try to do this for their wives and families.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He will always do things when asked but will seldom volunteer. If I ask him to pick up the kids, he will but otherwise he don't just do it. When I went out, when I came back hours later, the remains of dinner, leftovers, pots, dirty dishes, would still be sitting on the stove from after he, the last person to eat, would help himself. He'd never put the kids to bed or supervise homework. He's been known to sit in front of a pile of clean laundry, pick his and fold it and leave the rest.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe he is incapable of this. What if he needs you for this? That's the thing. Will the OW be able to understand this about him? Will she be able to tell him what he needs to do to keep his life together? Probably not. Just like my H told me today, "you're the accountant". My H hasn't written a check in 30 years. He didn't get his bills paid on time while in PLAN B. The fantasy world with the OW couldn't fit into reality.

He is who he is, GRAPE. Were you planning on him magically changing into a different person? I found out that was part of my problem. I did not accept him for whom he was. He craved ADMIRATION from me for what he has accomplished and provided, an EGO BOOST during his MIDLIFE CRISIS. She provided that. However, that was all that she was able to provide. She did not have the history, memories of our trips together, memories of our special times with the children, the same political views that you speak of.... He had to encourage her to read the newspaper and to look at the news.... Do see where I'm going with this, GRAPE??????

Check out this perspective. I found it to be helpful in understanding my NEW HUSBAND.

http://www.midlife.com/html/resources/articles/ra17_men.htm

Try to focus on the positives, GRAPE.

You can get this back and more, I think.

We certainly have.

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 02:02 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks Mimi. I found the Men at Midlife article very interesting. Some of it holds for WH, some of it doesn't. He has become selfish. For a long time, his biggest interest has been his work, followed by his camera and a distant 3rd is the family. The 10% of obligations at the bottom of the list that he's decided to throw away is US! He'd prefer to buy his kids off.

The real husband is basically a good man. That's why I am fighting for my marriage, my family, my love. Many people tell me to give it up. I tell them that it hasn't been long enough that I need to work on it more.

Can I accept who he is/what he is? I always have. I worked around it and done what has needed to be done for a family. It's often been frustrating to negioiate these things with him. I'd hire a babysitter for an agreed upon date night only to have WH backout at the last minute. I'd ask about getting a cleaning service to help with the housework on an occasional basis only to be shot down. After I'd plan vacations so we could go away as a family, WH would make me cancel them even though WH was maxed on vacation hours but hadn't bothered to request the time from his boss. I never just went and did these things. I always tried to get his opinion, suggestion and agreements before I started anything. Communication problems, yes but it's hard to communicate when one party just shuts down and goes mute. I've always been willing to take him as he is but he has to give a little back. At some time, I needed to decided if what he can give me is all that I want.

At this point, I think that my biggest problem, and no doubt others see more, is that I am tired, strung out and have an empty lovebank. The central warehouse is empty and I have no inventory to ship. I'm mentally exhausted. I don't have an empty, barren apartment to go to that is only dirtied by dust. I don't have an OP to tell me I'm wonderful, a job to tell me I'm undispensible, a fat paycheck, a spouse to care for the business of house and family while I separately do whatever I want to. Instead my job is to tell WH he is wonderful at every turn, do damage control with the kids, keep the house clean despite kids, dogs, school projects and the preperation of balanced, homemade meals, look wonderful and rested although I can't sleep at night, smile through uncertainity, and keep it all a secret from the neighbors because my kids want me to.

I am a good person. I do generous, caring things. For years, I have tried to pull my husband into our family circle only to be rebuffed. My needs have not been met for a long time. I too, have a need for admiration and respect. I have a need to be coddled and given to, to have someone listen attentively to me. I could definitely use a little SF satisfaction. It hasn't happened. WHY AM I NOT THE PERSON HAVING THE F****ING AFFAIR? Why have I made the decision to be an adult and taken the mature route? Why is it I'm expected to give, give, give, forgive, forgive, forgive and still I'm told I'm selfish? As we "drifted apart", I threw line after line to his boat to pull him closer, yet it's my problem because he kicked away, ignored or threw them back?

This is a BIG vent. Better done here than in WH's face. This is why I'm going away for a bit. I need to recharge. In the past year, I have had 1 night away from my family and that was on a friend's couch. A couple of weeks ago, I spent the night with DS in a motel 50 miles away between tournament days. When something like that seems like a nice escape, I know I need more. Thank God, we're in a position financially that I can do more.

Thank you Mimi for the reminder that I need to look at the good things as well as those that hurt. WH is a good man who is on a strange path. I just need to go away and lick my wounds for a bit. I'll come back ready to Plan A with vigor or move on. You are so patient with me.

Bring on your 2x4's if you will. I probably can't even feel them.

Maybe it's time for you to do PLAN B. I never got to the place where you are, with an emptiy LOVE BANK.

I wanted to do everything that I could to get my H back and didn't know how to live without him. I realized the mistakes that I had made and did my best to remedy my mistakes.

I knew that he did his large share of creating problems in the marriage/family. I realized that I couldn't work on him, that I couldn't change him. I focused on myself. Despite the tragedy of it all, my personal journey has been good for all of us in many ways.

I couldn't bear the alternative of starting all over again at age 48. It was the choice that I made....

You have to make your own choices. I certainly agree with you on that.

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Oh Mimi, you are so kind. I am feeling pretty empty. I'm not making any decisions right now. I know myself pretty well. I know that I like to deliberate and think about things. I like to take time. A little time for the A and its repercussions to shake out is good.

I wonder if maybe you had more to work with than I do. Was your marriage basically good until the A? Our family has been the kids and I with side of Dad for a long time. I can imagine what it's like to live without him. He hasn't been functionally in our lives for almost a year. WH's major responsiblity has always been bringing in a paycheck. In all honesty, he's done very well at that. I've done almost everything else, raised the kids, done the household maintenance, paid the bills, planted the garden, and arranged for our social life. We joked that he made the living and I made life worth living. Mimi, was your marriage at that point? I got stronger and he became more of a shadow.

Does he want that anymore? Maybe in time. Do I want it? Even if this marriage works, that's going to be different. I'm going to go back to school. I'm going to find a job that doesn't intrude upon my DD. I do believe MB can make a marriage stronger if it survives. I feel like I have better tools now.

Right now, I'm not rushing into anything. I'm going to Plan A.5 until the end of March. If a week with his kids doesn't wake WH up, there's not much hope. Once I fill myself up a little, I can make better decisions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was your marriage basically good until the A? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No! The first 10 years and 5 years of courtship were great.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, was your marriage at that point? I got stronger and he became more of a shadow.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This was exactly the nature of my marriage as you describe yours. That's why our sitchs sound so similar.

I've come to realize that my H' A was long-term, lasting about 3 years. Exposure was what killed it though because prior to D-Day they only had borrowed time. I was so busy doing other things that I didn't notice. I thought he was working as usual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do believe MB can make a marriage stronger if it survives </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My marriage is different and stronger!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a week with his kids doesn't wake WH up, there's not much hope </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't agree with you on this. Given the addictiveness of the A, which you have to buy and understand, it takes a lot to break away from it. A week with the kids could probably be an important part of your PLAN A, whatever. If it does not work to break up the A, there is no reason to give up hope. It takes time. I'm thinking that you probably will eventually have to do PLAN B if you follow this process. Then, you will have a good chance at recovery. Don't forget that there's a good chance that he will see the OW while you are gone.

Why do you think there's a need to give up hope..
We need to do something about your sense of hopelessness and tendency to focus on the negative.

Grape:

What do you think about this quote? I will tell you the source if you think that you can stomach this POV at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe women take men for granted and want to mold them into an image they have in their own minds of what a husband-their husband-should be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Mimi, I can see why you stick with me. You do give me hope about this situation. As far as I can tell, WH's A dates from October. I've exposed him to the family. I have not exposed him at work. I'm not sure his workplace cares. There is a culture of fishy sexual things. For years, the head of this facility had an A with the main HR person. Also, the company had no problem sending guys to the Far East facilities even though they knew these guys wanted to go mainly for sex. Nobody ever said anything! My kids have asked me not to expose him in the neighborhood or with their friends.

I realize I have a really stinky attitude. Part of it is this time of year. I don't know where you live but here at the base of the Rockies, it's cold, brown and dry. My tulip stems are poking a couple inches out of the ground and giving me hope. I love the hope and promise and color of spring. Other things have been on my mind. DS#1 is doing well in school. He switched from a junior college to a much harder university in January and I worried about it. DS#2 is very close to being accepted into his first choice university. A couple weeks ago, he was denied admission but has been working with the coach to make it happen. And we're gearing up for graduation. My DD is testy and starting on the hormonal thing. All this stuff would be stressful without throwing a WH into the mix.

I miss my husband. Even before he was wayward, he was gone from us. I miss catching up on the kids, talking about his work, getting his opinion, going to things with him, and having him around. I miss being hugged and his warm body in bed. I feel tired of having so much of my energy sucked out of me by the emotion and uncertainity of the situation. I worry about affording 2 college educations (and maybe 3) at the same time, a house and his apartment.

That's why I'm glad I'm going away. It will be good for my soul to go to a humid, green place filled with daffodils and be a guest for a bit. Plan A will continue at home. I'm working hard getting the house reorganized and clean. I'm putting lots of homemade meals in the freezer. I'm going to provide the basic schedule of what needs to happen and let WH take it from there.

I've talked to my kids about OW and the possibility that they might meet her. They certainly don't want to meet her. DD has developed her own emergency plan. I can imagine a situation where WH takes off and the kids are left alone. DS is going to be there for his sister. DS is 18 and an extremely large, capable and reliable guy. He has a car, he will have money, he will take care of the situation. I have a nearby friend who said she'd be on call day or night, if they need her. My inlaws are worried about their son being with his kids, are an hour away but intend to invite everyone over for some dinners and be on watch.

For 10 days, I intend to not call. I will have physical and mental distance. I intend to dress in beautiful clothing and soak in one of my favorite cities. I'm going to visit every art museum and site I could never drag my family to. I will walk for miles, even in the rain. Every year, I usually go somewhere for a week so I know they can do it. I do think the burden will fall on DS. Knowing that I can depend upon him makes a big difference.

If I don't have a better attitude by March 22nd, then we're really going to have to brainstorm it.

As for the POV, I think it should be changed to spouse. I believe husbands want to mold their wives as much as wives want to change husbands. I guess in the end, we can only change ourselves.

Grape.....I am in tears right now because I hate what I read when I read your posts. It is reality staring me in the face. It is too painful. Even this.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He will always do things when asked but will seldom volunteer. If I ask him to pick up the kids, he will but otherwise he don't just do it. When I went out, when I came back hours later, the remains of dinner, leftovers, pots, dirty dishes, would still be sitting on the stove from after he, the last person to eat, would help himself. He'd never put the kids to bed or supervise homework. He's been known to sit in front of a pile of clean laundry, pick his and fold it and leave the rest.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am thinking what the hell is wrong with these men. My WH is the same man!!! Is it a pity party on our part. NO, NO, NO !!! we deserve something better than this, but if we make demands we are controlling, nagging Bi#*$'s. But we hang on for dear life. We see all the good in these men, we don't want to live without them, we keep hoping that they will become someone else, when reality is that they are who they are. We can either chose to be taken advantage of by the love of our life, or we can say goodbye.
Why can't we say goodbye, why can't we find the life we deserve!!! Why do we continue to allow ourselves to be hurt and used when we are strong women??

I know in my heart that my marriage has no chance if he doesn't put some effort into making it work. And guess what.... I doubt he will because he wants the control...he wants to make me insignificant in his life because I am.

Someone suggested a book on one of my threads.

Face the fear and let go.

Something like that. I say to hell with plan A.5 and Plan B, I am tired of crying myself to sleep. Taking care of the kids on my own (although I always have). But I can not bring myself to D. I need him to do it but he won't. He is afraid of losing out financially, he doesn't want to be the bad guy.

Sorry to rant and vent on your thread....but maybe, just maybe you will come up with something on your trip that will set us both free. Maybe something you do will work for me and vice versa.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess in the end, we can only change ourselves.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're getting it, SISTER GODDESS!!!

Homer,
Consider what GRAPE is saying.

((((((((((Mimi))))))))))))
((((((((((Homer)))))))))))

I will use my time away from my family thinking about everything. I've got a long plane flight and many nights in a strange house. I'll have lots of miles to walk, probably in the rain.

Mimi, I'm going to look where I can change myself. Keep the house cleaner? I try but yelling at the kids doesn't make me a nicer person. I really hate cleaning. If and when we get back together, I'm negiotiating a cleaning service. Go back to school and get a job? Better for me personally but not so good for DD and would take more time away from the M. Work on the admiration thing? I have been working hard on that! Physically? I have lost 20lbs and counting since September. Not as many as some on the Infidelity diet but I'm quite fit. I work out 3 times a week, dance and walk. I make a point of wearing nice clothes and makeup whenever I go out. WH has never commented on the weightloss but I feel great! My cholesterol and blood pressure are fabulous! I can change how much I love bust. Unfortunately, the best ways for me not to LB are to either not see him or to be detached emotionally from him.

I cannot change his job, his level of involvement and lack of boundaries with it. I cannot change his need for his apartment, for OW, for freedom from being part of a family and all the responsiblities there in. I cannot change his relationship with his children. I cannot change his moods, his silences or the brick wall he puts up. I cannot change his slipperiness, his untruthfulness, his betrayal. I cannot force him to come home or to love me.

Am I missing something? That's part of the self-evaluation process. Let me know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I cannot change his job, his level of involvement and lack of boundaries with it. I cannot change his need for his apartment, for OW, for freedom from being part of a family and all the responsiblities there in. I cannot change his relationship with his children. I cannot change his moods, his silences or the brick wall he puts up. I cannot change his slipperiness, his untruthfulness, his betrayal. I cannot force him to come home or to love me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEP! You are getting it!

Say this over and over again and then add:

I CAN ONLY CHANGE MYSELF!!

Once you change into this mindset, he may not tell you but he will notice. He will see you as being valuable. He will want to buy you the best sewing machine there is, get it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />