No, I haven't left. Our financial affairs are still in a mess. I was planning to move into a rental property we own, but we rented it.

Also, I realize that I have gone back into withdrawal from my H and become a conflict avoider. I do still love my H, but have just about lost that "in love" feeling, although I know that I could get it back. So, I'm going to try yet again, because the other night, he said, "You know, we don't talk much, do we?" The first time he's ever come close to addressing some of what I believe our problems to be.

Trying to talk to my husband about my feelings always seems to turn into talking about his feelings. Yes, his feelings are important to me, and I have listened to him and feel that I do understand a lot about him. However, I don't feel that my feelings are really all that important to him, so guess what...I've begun caring less and less about whether I meet his needs or not. However, I have made permanent changes in myself. I am careful, for the most part, to speak to him with respect and without that exasperated "tone" in my voice when I am exasperated. Except for the few times that I've lost it (last time was in November), I have been careful to think through what I want to say before I say it.

I gave him the "His Needs, Her Needs" tape a few months ago and asked him to listen to them. As far as I know, he hasn't bothered. My H does not read well, so his reading the book is out.

So, I need to tell him what I'm really feeling. I also need to not be yelled at when I tell him, and I need for him to really "HEAR" me. Traditionally, he seems to not hear what I'm really saying. For instance, I once told him that I believe that he started cheating when I was pregnant with our 2nd child. Somehow, he turned that around to mean that I said his cheating was the reason our 3rd and 4th babies were stillborn. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So, with that in mind, I decided to write a letter to him and then tape record my reading the letter. I will then go out of town for a few days, leaving the letter and the tape for him. That is the only solution I can come up with to tell him how I really feel without there being a big blowup of twisting things around to being only about his feelings. I figure that by having my words both written and recorded, he won't be able to claim that I said something totally different.

Mind you, this is only a rough draft...as much as I could write without crying. Please critique.

"Dear H,

Right after Valentine's Day, when we were in bed that morning, you said to me, "We don't ever talk much." I agreed, and we dropped the subject.

However, I would LOVE to be able to talk to you about lots of things, including my feelings about things. There are a couple of reasons why I don't talk much anymore. One reason is that I feel like you're not really interested in much that I have to say. The T.V. is always on, for one thing. The biggest reason, though, is that I'm afraid to share my feelings with you.

Yes, I said I am AFRAID. I'm even afraid to be telling you this now.

Why am I afraid? Because I'm afraid that the next time you're angry with me, you will use what you know about my feelings to hurt me.
For instance, a long time ago, I told you that when I was a little girl, I did not feel that my family loved me very much. Well, for years afterwards, whenever you were angry with me, I would hear from you that my family didn't give a s**t about me. Actually, I know now that they did and do love me. I know now that the reason I felt unloved was because I craved physical affection, and my family was not physically affectionate toward each other.

Another reason that I'm afraid to share my feeling with you is that it hurts to be told that I'm crazy and to then have the whole discussion turn around to your feelings. Your feelings ARE important, YES! But, anytime I bring up my feelings, I somehow become the "bad guy". And, I feel that I am not "allowed" be express unhappiness about anything you choose to do.

On Valentine's Day, you wanted to know what I was so down about.

I was down because after we had sex that morning, you got up and started putting your clothes on. Yes, I know you called me back to bed (after I went to the bathroom) so you could "love on me", but that was just too late. Why? Because I felt as though it just dawned on you that you forgot to "finish" me. Actually, I can still hear, especially during sex, your words telling me, "It's too much trouble and takes too long". And, I really think you meant it.

Then, later that morning, you told me, "Come to bed early tonight." I hope that I never hear those words from you again. I am so tired of the most romantic thing you've said to me in years being "Come to bed early tonight." I would also like something besides your just reaching for me in bed all the time. I've asked you to seduce me sometimes. Your response was that we're married and not teenagers.

I have asked you for several things in the last few years. Yes, you are more affectionate, and I do love and appreciate that. Yes, you did get me a new wedding ring, and it's beautiful. Yes, you do most of the cooking, and I do appreciate that, too, although that is not one of the things I've asked you for. Yes, you did ask me to get remarried, but it was not in the way I wanted. Once again, it was while we were riding down the road, when I asked you to make it a special occasion if you ever wanted to propose again. Anyway, I've changed my mind because I feel that you only asked me because I was crying that day. And, no, I wasn't crying about not getting remarried. I was crying because I had just realized that there is now only one person left in this world that I can trust with absolutely anything, and she is 3 hours away.

I've accepted that I will never have a real love letter from you, because you absolutely refused to write me one. I've accepted that I will never have a romantic proposal from you or a romantic new wedding to you. I've accepted those things, even though it hurts me to the core. However, I am having a lot of trouble accepting absolutely no romance in our marriage at all. I need to feel desired by you, and not like I'm just a receptacle for your needs. The lack of romance and feeling like I was just a handy receptacle is why I got to where I didn't often want to have sex earlier in our marriage.

Yes, I know that I've aged and that I can't seem to lose the weight; but, you know what? I AM a beautiful woman. I have a good and loving heart. I am a good mother, and I've been a faithful wife to you, always loving you, no matter what you said or did.

I'm going to be very blunt here, even though I'm sure this will p*** you off, but it's the way I feel.

I deserve to have you put at least as much or more effort into getting into my pants as you put into getting into some whore's pants.

I mean, you didn't just get up from the table at the Smokehouse, walk to the door, turn around and say to her, "Come out to my truck early tonight." and then walk out the door, did you?

Actually, I deserve MUCH more than that! I deserve to be made love to thoroughly and with passion and romance. So do you. But, it takes BOTH of us. I believe that we can both regain passion for each other. We have to work at it, but I do believe it can come back."

Please help. I need to be very clear to him, and he is rather plain spoken and blunt in his speech, so I'm thinking that I need to be somewhat blunt in this letter.

LC

I think the letter is great. It is from the heart and it is what you feel. I honestly don't know if it will change anything with your husband (for the record, anything you say will NEVER changeg him) and I am sure others can offer you ideas on a "strategy", but your letter as it stands is "real". I especially loved this sentence:

"Actually, I deserve MUCH more than that! I deserve to be made love to thoroughly and with passion and romance".

This is an issue that many a BS struggle with. Self esteem and self love are big big variables in affairs and enabling of affairs and allowane and tolerability of physical and verbal and emotional abuse. You can not expect your H to love and respect you if you don't do the same for yourself.

I am sorry if I did not give you specific critiques of your letter, hopefully others better versed in the startegizing of letters can help you here.

Something you said in your letter saddens me:

I've accepted that I will never have a real love letter from you, because you absolutely refused to write me one. I've accepted that I will never have a romantic proposal from you or a romantic new wedding to you. I've accepted those things, even though it hurts me to the core. However, I am having a lot of trouble accepting absolutely no romance in our marriage at all. I need to feel desired by you, and not like I'm just a receptacle for your needs. The lack of romance and feeling like I was just a handy receptacle is why I got to where I didn't often want to have sex earlier in our marriage

Reread that paragraph over. Would this be the kind of "acceptance" you would ever offer a daughter or dear friend in settling for in a marriage? Be honest with yourself here.


Goodluck in finding the happiness you seek.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Wow! Didn't really expect a response until after the weekend! Thank you for being here, LM!

No 2X4? Thanks! I tried to use "I feel" statements as much as possible, and do so when trying to explain things verbally to my H. However, H is so hyper-sensitive to even the slightest hint of criticism that even "I feel" sentences make him react with anger. That is why I'm going out of town and leaving the letter and a tape.

Do you think the letter and a tape of me reading the letter is a good idea?

I've accepted that he will never write a love letter to me because I can understand why. H dropped out of school, and does not read or spell well (I suspect that he has some dyslexia--seems to run in his family), and his handwriting is pretty bad. He does read well enough to get by on day to day stuff, like a note or a bill or something like that. As for the proposal and wedding, well...he DID ask me if I'd marry him again, although it was not at all romantic. He also has not done the slightest thing toward actally doing it. It was just lip service because I was really weepy that day. I had wanted, and he agreed, that we should lay the stone patio around our fish pond and redo the flower beds there for a perfect place to renew our vows. Almost 2 years ago, he dug out the top layer of grass and that is it. The base material is waiting, as are the stones...but no patio. Yes, I would love to have the romantic proposal and ceremony, but not as things stand right now. I don't want them unless we can have a whole new marriage. And, he will have to SHOW me that he really wants them, too, before we do them. In other words, he will have to get his butt out there and fix the patio. I can't do it, because I can't lift the stones...too heavy. Yeah, I could hire somebody to do it, but I need HIM to put forth some effort here. I will gladly help him...no problem there...but I need him to WANT to get it fixed up pretty. KWIM?

No, I want my daughter to "have it all!" I don't want her to just "take anything". She's really not much like me; she's a Daddy's girl, through and through...just like him! All I did was tote her for 9-1/2 months (yes, she was definitely overdue!). I went through hell with her during her teenage years! But, I am immensely proud of the woman she's become. She did take a lot of crap from her ex, but when she was finished with him, she was finished. Right now, she's fixing to haul his butt back to court for back child support...for the 4th time. He may have to sit in jail for a few months (like he did the last time), but his mom will eventually get the money together for him, and she will sock it away for her son's future. I'm really glad that she's so tough and such a fierce mother!

Thanks, again!
LC

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: Lady Clueless ]</small>

Bump

Lady Clueless,

I related to a lot of what you have written.

For me, I have written letters to FWH, but never thought of recording them. Hmmm. Here are a thought about that - will he react to your tone of voice & trigger a negative image? Or does he need to hear a message for it to sink in?

Also, I need to digest some things in the letter & I''l be back later.

D.

D.
The reason I'm recording the letter is because my H doesn't read well, and would refuse to read the letter. I don't know if he would listen to the tape or not. All I know is that trying to tell him how I feel face to face always backfires and I end up feeling even worse, with nothing changing. H also does not listen to me well, and seems to "hear" things that are totally different from what I said. I figure that with the tape, there is no way that he can claim I said something that I didn't actually say. I will make myself a copy of the tape in case he erases the original. I plan on leaving the letter and the tape for him before going out of town for a few days.

I'm not finished with the letter yet. There are other things that I need to say, but have to think of the right way to say them.

LC

Lady Clueless,

How long have you had 'no romance' in your marriage?
Or he was always like this, prior to his ONS too?
If so... and 34 years married... how come you cannot stand your M with no romance now?

I have something in mind, but would really like to hear your answer before I can write about it...

Basically, there really hasn't been much romance in our entire marriage, but there did use to be passion and desire...the playing around that eventually led to the bedroom type of thing. I miss that. I was terribly disappointed on our wedding night by my H's behavior. When I emerged from the bathroon all decked out in my beautiful negligee, his response was "Get that gown off!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I was a virgin and sex was not what I thought it would be. I actually could not have sex on the 2nd and 3rd nights of our honeymoon because the 1st night was so rough. H did apologize and said it was because he had waited so long for me.

Anyway, things got better, but I never really get much out of the actual sex because I was young, dumb, and ignorant (and I think H was, too). I just thought that was how things were supposed to be. There were times, though when sex was wonderful. Looking back, I can see that those were times when I absolutely felt loved by my H and he was making the effort to please me.

Why do I NOW want the romance? Well, I ALWAYS wanted the romance, but being raised by parents who weren't particularly romantic or openly affectionate, I just thought maybe I expected too much.

After the ONS, which I knew about because of the STD I contracted, I began withdrawing from my H. Yes, when we'd get into a fight, I would accuse him of cheating and he would tell me I was crazy, etc. or claim that I must have gotten it from someone else. But, basically, I withdrew until we got to the point where I believed he was in love with another woman.

Anyway, when I first began suspecting the last EA, I started really educating myself. I knew I couldn't change him, but I could change myself. I started trying to become the wife I should have been all along...basically trying to Plan A before I even knew what Plan A was.

Well, guess what. H was no longer interested in me. Oh, we'd try, but he couldn't finish. I don't think he actually had a PA with the woman, and I kind of think that she thought she was just being a friend to him. I'm not even sure that she was aware of his feelings toward her.

Also, I don't think the ONS is the only time he physically cheated.

So...what I want now is the marriage we SHOULD have had from the very beginning. I want the marriage that I always dreamed of having. I want a husband who loves me enough to at least try to make my dreams come true.

I want at least the same effort that he most likely put out in order to get these women into bed with him. And, yes, I know how he operated. He got mad at me one night when we were out, and he set out to "show me". He was talking to a woman about his brother's death, and of course, she was sooooo sympathetic. He actually sat there in front of me, having this deep, heart-felt conversation with her, rubbing her hand...blah, blah, blah. Actually, I know that my H loved his brother dearly, and it just about made me puke to hear him USING his brother's death to attract this woman. No, he didn't have an affair with her. He actually told me that she was stupid and ugly after we got home that night. BTW, I didn't say diddly-squat to him about his "performance"...because he was trying to get a reaction out of me and I wasn't about to give him one.

Anyway, I deserve to have the BEST of my H. I deserve to be courted and romanced by my H. Those other women didn't deserve it, but they got it. It is MY TURN!

Gosh, that just about turned out to be a rant. Well, I guess my resentment is showing through. That's something else I need to work through for myself.
LC

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: Lady Clueless ]</small>

Dear Lady -

Sorry things are so blocked in the romance department. I like your letter and hope your husband appreciates it for what it is - an honest and courageous attempt to make your marriage a place where both of you feel safe and where both of your most important needs are being met.

As the mother of a child with learning disabilities, I wanted to offer a different kind of insight for you. Our son is quite severely dyslexic and also suffers from auditory processing disorder - two conditions that seem to go together fairly often.

From your description of your husband's difficulty with reading and writing and the fact that those conditions occur in other members of his family, I think it's almost certain that he has dyslexia. That you would go to the trouble to record your letter instead of expecting/demanding that he read it is a very loving and supportive gesture.

There's a very real possibility that he also suffers from auditory processing disorder and that this contributes to his inability to "hear" you accurately. Folks with this problem can actually hear just fine, but they don't decode and process the basic sounds of speech well so they store what they've heard incompletely or inaccurately.

Our son comes up all the time with things like "salami" for "tsunami", "envelopes" for "antelopes,' Dead Sea "squirrels" for "scrolls", "gorilla" instead of "Granola" bars, well the list is basically endless - and pretty hilarious at times! He also fairly regularly insists that I said or didn't say something that he is completely mistaken on. If I don't have a witness, he can't be convinced that he didn't hear what he thinks he heard. I've already told FWH that I pity our future daughter-in-law and the time she's going to have to spend defending what she did or didn't say.

One tactic that works is to ask him to repeat what he thinks he just heard. Obviously, this is too time consuming to do in every conversation, but for the important things, I find that it helps us both be sure we've understood each other.

Good luck and I hope you get a positive response and real change with your letter.

Your letter IS nice, and you seems to be a very nice lady...

You have been acummulating your frustrations for so many years and now his ONS triggered all those wishes you have had for so long...
And maybe his ONS was a trigger to your MLS, not to 'appears', but to be expressed, spoken of...
Maybe...

You came here after learning about his ONS?
Then you read HNHN?
And all other stories, so many people fighting for their M, so many WSs hard working on repairing damages...
And your hopes increased...
Maybe...

However, I wouldn't expect him to be changed, not a lot... Not because I think he doesn't love you (somehow I do think he does), not because I think he won't try either... but because I think he is not capable of changing to be - a romantic lover that you need...

I don't think you shouldn't try at all... but don't have high expectations either...

He loves you... his way.
You are more educated, more sensible, more subtle...
You want him to show passion and tender words, a romantic uverture to your tempestuous nights...
And you know what? This is all of that For Him when HE says: "Come to bed early tonight." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
He knows no better to say it.
He's that type of a man...
Maybe...

Definately, the two of you are - quite different types of people...

Anyway... when you love someone, you love each part of him, moreover you accept and love all differences...
Can you say you do love him?

As passionately as you could IF under totally different circumstances IF a adequate opportunity...?
(If you know yourself enough, and after 34 years, your answer will easily be 'no'... and that would release you from wanting the same OW had... Regardless, you are not OW, you are 34 years more...)

Perdida,
Yes, I do think H has dyslexia, but he doesn't show any of the symptoms of auditory processing disorder. He is quite clear on what he is saying..no problems with his speech. It seems that I'm the only person he has trouble understanding...and I have often suspected that his twisting my words is a ruse to put me on the defensive. I've tried asking him to repeat what he "hears" back to me, and he refuses, saying that he's not some kindergarten kid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I do believe that he may have also had ADHD as a child (so do our son and 2 of our grandchildren). He can still hop from one thing to another within the blink of an eye. That's rather maddening at times.

Thank you so much for responding and for the information. I hope that my finished and taped letter will be something that he will listen to and at least try to understand.

Belonging,

The ONS was 18 years ago, and was never really dealt with properly. I believe that my H fell in love with someone else 6 years ago, which is when I started making changes in myself. I've actually been on MB since late 1998, under one name or another.

For quite a while, my H acted as if he hated me. It was horrid.

Yes, he loves me now. I don't think he's "in love" with me. It's more like I'm a good woman and I am the mother of his children. I really believe that the woman from 6 years ago was not interested in having a relationship with him. Basically, he was just spending a lot of time at her restaurant and talking to her at the local bar. She told me that he talked a lot about me when I wasn't around. I do suspect that my H may have thought I didn't love him...because of my withdrawing from him over the prior 12 years (since the ONS). Anyway, his behavior toward me became worse when she started seeing a single guy on a steady basis, while he was constantly trying to get her attention in public. He also refused to stop going to her restaurant without me. At any rate, after a couple of years, he finally became angry enough with her about something that he stopped going to her restaurant at all. She has since married another guy (really nice man). We periodically run into them since we live in a small town, and H no longer acts any particular way toward her....no longing glances or attempts to engage her in conversation, etc.

But...he's not back to feeling the way he used to feel about me.

Oh, I don't expect "moonlight and roses" type of romance stuff so much as little stuff like he USED TO DO! And, yes, I always expressed great and genuine pleasure in the little stuff. For instance, hanging over our mantel is a grapevine wreath that he made for me one winter when he was duckhunting and the ducks weren't flying. I wouldn't take anything for that wreath!

Then, there are the "surprise lilies" that are in my flower garden. I had casually mentioned that I would love to have some of those in the flower garden (they grow wild along the sides of the road here). A few days later, he brought some home.

So, you see, it's not that I want some fancy romantic stuff. Just knowing that he THINKS of me, as in he sees some little something and thinks, "Oh, LC would like that!" That is part of what is romantic for me.

As far as our sex life goes, well, not being ignored in favor of the TV would be nice. Some of the playfulness and bantering that he USED to initiate would also be nicer. Telling me that I'm beautiful or even pretty would probably give me a heart attack. The closest he's come to that in years is to tell me that I could probably find someone else because I'm still attractive (this was during his foggiest when he was telling me that if I thought I would like to have more sexual experiences, he would be OK with me having an affair <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ).

Yes, he's more affectionate. He will come give me a kiss goodbye, or give me a quick peck or a pat on the shoulder as he walks by. Once in a while, he will even cop a feel. He will hug me when I initiate a hug and will kiss me back if I kiss him. I once suggested that we start doing the 10-second kiss every day, but he thought that was silly. The only real kissing we do is when we are having sex. The frequency is down on sex, too.

I really can't see that I'm wanting him to do something that he's not capable of doing. After all, he HAS done these things in the past. Maybe not everyday, but often enough that I felt like he was in love with me, even though he was probably cheating then, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> The H who did these things is the man with whom I fell in love.

AND I WANT HIM BACK!

LC

<minor hijack> whoa LM you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Reread that paragraph over. Would this be the kind of "acceptance" you would ever offer a daughter or dear friend in settling for in a marriage? Be honest with yourself here.


Goodluck in finding the happiness you seek.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WOW. "f" all disparagers. You have hit the heart of it.

That's your forte.

Sweetie, take a good hard look at what you had vs what you've got. What you've allowed vs what you're willing to allow now....

RS