Every night around this exact time I awaken from a nightmare (the sleeping kind). I usually wake Patriot up. Is that inconsiderate? I'm not going to wake him up tonight.

I was at some kind of sporting event. I was angry with him because he didn't want to marry me and I was talking it over with friends and trying to figure out what to do. The friends brought me this man who helps you figure things like this out (as if!) I was walking around this sporting event (maybe soccer, I don't know) and he was wearing glasses and I was holding on to his arm while we walked. He felt very comforting. I kept leaning my head against his arm and I just remember that it felt very safe. I think I was supposed to be talking to him about my situation but I kept really beating around the bush because it felt so good just to feel safe and hold on to his arm. Then Patriot runs up out of nowhere and is hurt and wonders why I am walking with this man. But he's not even aggressive or trying to get me away from this man. He just kind of lurked around. I was feeling kind of mad and thinking 'I'm talking to this man to try to figure out what to do about YOU! If you want me, why are you not even going to TRY to get me away from this man?' It was weird.

I think I'm awake now.

The man who 'helps you figure things out' looked like this man I met at an out-of-state wedding this past summer. Patriot wasn't with me. When this guy and I shook hands, we had some kind of very obvious 'I'm immensely attracted to you' kind of moment and he kept staring at me the rest of the reception. I don't even know him and have never seen him again. I don't even remember his name. As soon as I saw Patriot after I got back I told him about the incident. I always tell him everything. I wish he would have told me everything before things progressed. At another wedding (right before Patriot's A began) I met a guy that I spent the whole night talking to. We seriously connected, obvious attraction and the whole bit. This one was dangerous because I REALLY wanted him to kiss me. The second I got home I told Patriot about it. I even told him that I wanted to kiss the guy and that I'd given him my e-mail address. He wasn't mad. That was almost two years ago. This guy lives in another state. We have e-mailed each other maybe twice since then in a strictly friendship context. Oddly enough, he e-mailed me two weeks ago. He wondered if I was married yet. I told him everything. He listened and was supportive. I told Patriot about it and I told him that I felt it was dangerous to continue contact with him anymore and that I also felt it was inappropriate since I am married now. He agreed. Sometimes he gives me way too much freedom when I would rather have him set boundaries, not because I want him to act jealous but because it would show me that he valued our relationship and wanted to protect it. I've discussed this with him.

Another odd occurance is the recent appearance of an old relationship that IS dangerous. This one is dangerous because he lives in this city, we have had a sexual relationship in the past. We only talk every few years. It's been about six years since I've talked to him. Oddly enough, he's contacted me since d-day. I've told him of the situation with Patriot and that I'm married now. He is also married. I saw him in person. First when he came to my business, and second when he called last week and asked if I wanted to go get some lunch with him. I had an hour break right then and I went. I told Patriot that I was going with him. I know I was playing with fire and I didn't do anything, didn't even want to. At lunch, this guy told me straight out he still thinks about me (after 12 years) and wants to have an affair with me. I told Patriot everything. I apologized for not considering his feelings by going to lunch with him. But he didn't even try to stop me! I'm sure I'll get some 2x4's for this behavior. I already know. I volunteered to call the guy that evening, with Patriot listening, while I told the guy that I care about my marriage and did not want to participate in an affair with him and thought it best that we had no further contact. Patriot declined. I don't understand this. Patriot did say that he didn't want me to talk to the guy anymore. I don't want to have an affair. Maybe I was just trying to make him jealous. Maybe I just want to see what his boundaries are. I don't know. I won't talk to him anymore, simply because it's dangerous and disrespectful. Nothing good can come of any continued contact. I just wish I didn't have to goad Patriot to get him to put his foot down.

Done rambling. Thanks for the ear.

Hi, Frozen.

It is incredibly important right now that you not look outside your marriage for support except for a same sex friend (assuming you don't have any 'leanings'), a professional counsellor, or here, and you have to be careful here.

There are a lot of fine ladies that can provide support for you here.

The answer to your marital difficulties does not lie outside of your marriage.

Stop playing with matches. You WILL get burned.

I am glad that you confessed, but what you have done is slowing down the process. You cry and want it to be better sooner. Now you have added time to the recovery. I hope that your apologies to Patriot were heartfelt. You do not want to fuel his sense of entitlement.

Gimble

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Gimble ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">assuming you don't have any 'leanings'</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Correct assumption.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and you have to be careful here</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">About what???


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop playing with matches. You WILL get burned.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Done.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am glad that you confessed, but what you have done is slowing down the process. You cry and want it to be better sooner. Now you have added time to the recovery. I hope that your apologies to Patriot were heartfelt. You do not want to fuel his sense of entitlement.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HIS sense of entitlement? I wasn't confessing. I didn't DO anything, except disregard his feelings. The apology for that was completely heartfelt. It was inconsiderate of me. I DO want it to be better sooner. I was completely honest and up front with him. He asked for NOTHING. I set the boundaries FOR him, since he wasn't willing to do it. I am not suddenly a WS because I had lunch with someone I had sex with six years ago.

Hey Frozen - I was glad to hear that Patriot isn't coming over here... I do hope that you both can use this time to work on your M.

I hope you guys can find a good pro-marriage counselor that you both like and trust... when you do, I think that you'll both find that it's worth every penny that it costs and then some...

Semper Fi,
RIF

Thanks RIF. We have been in MC since just post d-day. We are still undecided as to whether she is THE counselor for us, so we're giving it a little more time.

Hey Frozen - I mentioned to Patriot on one of his threads that he needs to take the lead in all of this... if either of you aren't comfortable with your MC, then by all means, go find a new one...

Wishing you both the best...
RIF

I'm not UNcomfortable with her. I just haven't made up my mind how proactive she is, exactly. I wasn't quite ready to give up on her yet. We may have to find a new one anyway with the insurance change with Patriot's job.

stepping in for a second.

On the MC, I actually have to work that thru Tricare now, so that is sonething I will work out next week. Since I no longer have a civilian job, the insurance goes with it. I have been on AD 1 week, and almost half of that was inprocessing. Tricare was not done during that time. I have the Prime enrollment forms and all that. So, I am working this issue again.

I told Patriot everything. I apologized for not considering his feelings by going to lunch with him. But he didn't even try to stop me!

frozen why would the rule of life that you can't control anyone else not apply to patriot....

lunch with a married man...is and always will be your choice....

you chose lunch for whatever reason...
you own that...

Patriot did say that he didn't want me to talk to the guy anymore.

that's all he can do in one sense...what you choose to do with that is in your hands...

Maybe I just want to see what his boundaries are. I don't know.

please be wary of using others to test your spouses boundaries...it is unfair to that third party that is your test rat....

I just wish I didn't have to goad Patriot to get him to put his foot down.

that's a pretty big wish...and very early expectation in recovery...

in the perfect world...patriot would have stood tall and said...

"that no matter what I have done in the past
that no matter what I have not done in the past..from this moment on I am choosing fidelity between us..
that I expect no less from you in this marriage and I expect no less from me in this marriage...
and if you even the BS choose a route outside of fidelity...so be your choice...for then I will make mine as well...."

But that's a pretty tall order this early in recovery...because while that may be exactly as he feels...
the fear of speaking those words and you calling his bluff...is most likely terrifying....

there can even be fleeting wishes and desires that a BS do such a thing....so that the playing field in appearance becomes more level....

human nature most likely leaves a WS terrified of this exact scenario....
and most likely they are terrified to speak their real fears....for what is only a fear to them..is the BS reality....

and again...the WS knows from experience they can't control you..just as the BS had no control in stopping their own affair...

the nature of the beast...

so the 2x4 that goes to you frozen is the one where I say please don't use third parties to be some litmus test of where patriot is.....

these things cloud and confuse recovery...

you realize you risked very much derailing patriots ownership in this...because this quickly could have escalated to all focus off of him and onto you and your actions...

and let the games begin....

blessings to both of you..

ARK

Oh I know all about TRICARE <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ...

We ended up paying everything for our MC as my civilian insurance wouldn't pay for it... but it was well worth the expense.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">why would the rule of life that you can't control anyone else not apply to patriot</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't necessarily want him to try to control me. I wanted him to show me that he cared by clearly defining boundaries.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patriot did say that he didn't want me to talk to the guy anymore.

that's all he can do in one sense...what you choose to do with that is in your hands...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said that after the fact.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so the 2x4 that goes to you frozen is the one where I say please don't use third parties to be some litmus test of where patriot is.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel worse for testing him. I guess I just wanted to feel valued (by Patriot). I don't trust his words. Because of this and because of his previous actions (specifically, the A), I am finding it difficult to allow him to meet my needs.

I don't feel bad for the third party. He knew why I was there (to talk). I didn't mislead him. I told him that I wouldn't lie to my H. I told him that my H knew where I was, who I was with, and that I would tell him anything that we discussed. It was still inconsiderate of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">these things cloud and confuse recovery...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right. I will be more mindful of this and focus on it from now on.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">blessings to both of you..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And to you, as well. Thanks for your insight.

At lunch, this guy told me straight out he still thinks about me (after 12 years) and wants to have an affair with me.

you do realize frozen that you should contact your friends wife and tell her exactly what her husband said...

especially as you yourself seek truth from patriot your friends wife should be given the same chance...

you do realize that don't you...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ARK

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 05:34 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Hey Froz-

You are getting enough advice here...sorry about the nightmares....I get them too, they seem so real....I feel so helpless in them, and I don't have anyone to "wake up" so I just deal as best I can and try to go back to sleep.

That's all hon, just wanted to sympathize. The recovery will move along better without the outside influences (And you already know this)and I know EXACTLY how ya feel....as I said to you in another thread...been there, done that. It takes a while, but it gets better.

Chin up!

-Caren

(((((((((((Froz))))))))))))

I am so sorry about the nightmares. My intuition is that is solely means you are seeking out the comfort of a trusting person, and you have not quite made it there with Patriot yet.

That's OK.....it takes time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Maybe I was just trying to make him jealous. Maybe I just want to see what his boundaries are. I don't know. I won't talk to him anymore, simply because it's dangerous and disrespectful. Nothing good can come of any continued contact. I just wish I didn't have to goad Patriot to get him to put his foot down. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a FWS, perhaps I can lend a little bit of insight as to why he is having trouble setting and enforcing the 'boundaries.'

At the end of an A, and after the fog lifts completely, the WS feels an overwhelming blanket of guilt. This guilt is suffocating. It seems to surround you and everything that is a part of your life. The guilt is its own version of 'fog.' Instead of promoting a feeling of entitlement (like the WS felt during the A fog), it promotes exactly the opposite - that the WS doesn't have the RIGHT to ask anything of the BS.

After all, considering what we had done, why should we even be able to ask anything of the BS? They wouldn't feel like that had we not had the A. We are the cause for the destruction to the M, the BS's self esteem, image, heart, and even to our own self being.

What RIGHT do we have to ask anything after what we did?

I remember that shortly after disclosure of my A, I gave my H permission to have an A. My A was over, but I saw how very much he was hurting, and I thought that if he had an A, then he would feel vindicated, and I would feel the pain that he was currently feeling. He kept saying that I got to "have my fun" and then come back to the M. So, thoughts like this, at the time, seemed to 'balance the scales' per se. He could 'go have his fun', too... and I could feel the intense hurt that he was feeling. In a very warped sense, we would be better able to 'understand each other' and the motivations behind our actions....not to mention we would be 'equal'.

Later in recovery, it was clear that allowing him to have an A wasn't the right thing to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . But at the time, I felt completely un-entitled to ask him not to. Or to even ask for him to stay away from friends, etc. Why did he deserve the right to have his whole world destroyed by me? He didn't. I felt suffocated by my guilt, and most certainly didn't feel that I had a right to enforce anything - I was so deeply in debt to him, how could I possibly ask anything from a man who was floored and writhing with pain?

Once my self guilt (different from remorse, mind you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) diminished to a manageable level, I was able to set those boundaries and demand them. I finally realized that asking those boundaries of him was not a "right" but rather, a way to protect our M as a whole. And as long as I lived up to them as well, then it would be equal. I knew there was no way to 'right' the hurt from my A. But I could 'right' the M - and put in protective measures.

In fact, that's what prompted me to suggest separation from my H. My H, after D-day, had become friends with a woman who had been a BS in her own previous M. And she encouraged my H to stay and work on the M. But that relationship, and my inability to enforce boundaries of protection left us vulnerable.

Now I did tell him that I thought he should confide less in her - that I wished he would not discuss intimacies with her, and instead that he would discuss with me......but his retort was always "I can't talk about this with you - you are the one who did this to me? How could I talk to my rapist to heal?"

It made sense, and I felt like I had no right. Only later was I able to regain enough self esteem to realize I had rights in this M as well. And I had the right to protect it just as much......in spite of my past actions. But by that point, it was too late. Their relationship had already flourished into a full fledged EA (as I found out a month after our separation). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So, in essence, perhaps something that would help would be for you to express to him that you would like for him to set those boundaries. That you feel that even though his past actions have hurt you immensely, that his setting of boundaries would demonstrate his commitment to protecting the M. And that you don't want his guilt to preclude his abilities to protect the M further.

Your actions, although risky, are simply manifestations of feelings many BS have. You don't yet feel safe with your WS. You don't feel like you can talk safely with him. You don't yet trust him. That's normal. BUT you also have to protect yourself.....and you know that confiding in these individuals you are attracted to is 'risky' behavior. You must also learn to protect yourself. And you honestly have not been doing all you can either.

No 2X4's from me.....just some gentle pushes for you both to put in measures to protect the M. In other words....the golden rule applies here. If you wouldn't want him confiding in people of the opposite sex, you shouldn't do that either. If he doesn't want you lunching with members of the other sex, he shouldn't do that either. Eventually, the M will have to work its way back toward "equality" once again. And you both will have to work to achieve that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Ark hit it on the head.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> there can even be fleeting wishes and desires that a BS do such a thing....so that the playing field in appearance becomes more level....

human nature most likely leaves a WS terrified of this exact scenario....
and most likely they are terrified to speak their real fears....for what is only a fear to them..is the BS reality....

and again...the WS knows from experience they can't control you..just as the BS had no control in stopping their own affair...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the WS doesn't have the RIGHT to ask anything of the BS</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He said this exact thing to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">perhaps something that would help would be for you to express to him that you would like for him to set those boundaries. That you feel that even though his past actions have hurt you immensely, that his setting of boundaries would demonstrate his commitment to protecting the M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said this exact thing to him.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You don't feel like you can talk safely with him.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For some reason, this has never been a problem for me. I rarely feel un-safe expressing exactly how I feel. This might not be a good thing sometimes. I don't know. Honesty is very important to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you honestly have not been doing all you can either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Other than the obvious (avoid opposite-sex friendships - which I am completely willing and already intended to do) what can I do? I'm willing to do the homework.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No 2X4's from me.....just some gentle pushes for you both to put in measures to protect the M </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you do realize frozen that you should contact your friends wife and tell her exactly what her husband said...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know how to contact her. I don't know where he lives and I don't have his phone number.
I did already think of this. At the very least I considered encouraging him to do this, but I figured that it would not be wise for me to have any continued contact with him.

frozen I hope that if there is any possibility for you to find out how to contact her.....

ie ask him for his home number ...
place of business etc..

that you do so..
and let his wife know of her husbands repulsive proposition...

for her own safety and sake...

ARK

ARK,

I will investigate the matter further. I don't believe he would be very forthcoming with information. I would have to rely upon my own resources.

If I am able to obtain enough information to contact her, do you have any suggestions on how to go about revealing her husband's interest in infidelity? I asked him if he had had affairs in the past and he stated that he had. He didn't give any details. What is the appropriate way to go about doing that? I do, of course, want to do the right thing.

geez frozen it's a horrible thing...one i have never had to do...

I would just say I am letting you know that your husband informed me that he was interested in pursueing a relationship with me...and that he has done so with others in the past.....

can you just look him up in a phone book..
did he leave a number on a cell phone...

Gosh Frozen I hope you felt this man is a repulsive as he sounds to me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

ARk

originally posted by froz:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oddly enough, he e-mailed me two weeks ago. He wondered if I was married yet. I told him everything. He listened and was supportive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've told him of the situation with Patriot and that I'm married now. He is also married. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">________________________________________________

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You don't feel like you can talk safely with him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For some reason, this has never been a problem for me. I rarely feel un-safe expressing exactly how I feel. This might not be a good thing sometimes. I don't know. Honesty is very important to me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair enough, Froz. If you do feel safe expressing to Patriot how you feel, then what are you getting from divulging the intricacies of your marrital issues to members of the other sex - admittedly men that you are attracted to?

Whatever that is 'giving' you - i.e. whatever NEED that is meeting for you, you need to try to find a way to have it met by your H. I think that was more the point that I was trying to make.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And you honestly have not been doing all you can either.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other than the obvious (avoid opposite-sex friendships - which I am completely willing and already intended to do) what can I do? I'm willing to do the homework.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly that. Protect your M as well. Don't just wait for Patriot to do it. And if you do it from the beginning, then you will be doing more to protect your M. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> As you state those are your intentions. Now it's time to show by action. And Patriot will have to do the same by living those same boundaries, and enforcing them with you as well.

What I meant in that post was that you "have not" (in the past) protected your M to the fullest of your abilities - As evidenced by your conversations with these men who you were either attracted to or had past relationships with. Now you DID indeed opt for protection later......which should be commended. But you didn't immediately turn them down in the beginning. Would you feel comfortable if Patriot had made the same choices as you?

Is it fair that you should have to behave with the same set of POJA boundaries as Patriot? Considering he was the one who had the A? Nope. But if the M is to recover, it is what has to be. Things will be a bit lopsided in the beginning (such as this situation) but you both will have to move toward equality.

I'm sorry that you are having to deal with this. As a FWS, I often feel a pang of guilt everytime I hear the pain in the BS voice.....knowing that I also caused the same pain to my STBXH. But you and Patriot both seem motivated to work through it, and that is beyond commendable. Do it together, do it with an open mind, and try to work through the resentment.....IMVHO, that is the most difficult part.

Good luck to you both!