</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you feel comfortable if Patriot had made the same choices as you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would imagine that I would feel quite A LOT more comfortable with those choices than the choices he did make, actually.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I often feel a pang of guilt everytime I hear the pain in the BS voice</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interestingly, I felt guilty when you said that for sounding 'in pain'. I'm sorry for your pain, and I thank you for looking past it enough to help me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> quote:
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Would you feel comfortable if Patriot had made the same choices as you?
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I would imagine that I would feel quite A LOT more comfortable with those choices than the choices he did make, actually.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My bad.....I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. I was referring to after discovery of the A, would you want him to make the same choices as you did with these other men. Now that you each know more about protecting the M.

I'm absolutely certain that instead of the A, you would have preferred him to make these choices. Heck! I wish I had made the same choices.

My point is that you both have to protect the M together - and equally. If either of you from this point on, share your marital problems with another outside individual, you are opening your M up to vulnerability.

Sorry for the confusion.....

foot in mouth disease <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Of course my BS-thinking mind WOULD have to hone in on that one. Sorry for that.

You are right. Had he made the same choice, I might have even left. I guess I viewed it differently for myself because I am "to be trusted" and he is not. The fact that I have not betrayed his trust by being dishonest does not give me the latitude to make decisions that don't protect him or our M. Point taken.

Patriot and I have spent a good portion of the day constructively discussing these things and many more. We also got about halfway through the EN questionaires. There is one MAJOR obstacle that I can't see a path through right now. It's a nemesis that deserves it's own thread. We have done some growing the last couple of days, mostly in that some things are becoming clearer to both of us. Of course with these things come more questions and the seeking of more answers.

My heartfelt thanks to you and all who post to us to offer their insight and support. You are shedding so much light and that light is helping us both in ways that will leave us forever changed.

Froz,

One of the interesting things that I have noticed about recovery..is all of the places where you have to adjust a boundary..not because of the A per say..but because you have become aware that the boundary was not positioned correctly in the first place.

Things like this have NOTHING to do with who is guilty and what of..they are just plain old not a good idea and disrespectfull to the other spouse as well.

It's amazing how much of your life is going to change as you become educated and aware of what it takes to make a sound marriage..it does sort of give you a sneak peek into the early WS thought process..after all, though you spurned his advances..you were already on questionable ground just being there in the first place..and you gave yourself permission to be there by rationalizing.. then POOF opportunity struck. The timing was off..and the offer not enough to sway you..the method too bold, too obvious..but it is revealing all the same, no?

Noodle

Noodle,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Things like this have NOTHING to do with who is guilty and what of..they are just plain old not a good idea and disrespectfull to the other spouse as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see just what you mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it does sort of give you a sneak peek into the early WS thought process</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe it should have helped me more. It's very difficult for me to understand. I was completely cognitive of my decisions. I have a hard time understanding Patriot's lack of this in this situation and many other situations that have brought about a tremendous amount of regret in his life. It's like he walks around in a daze, simply reacting without knowing or understanding why. I can't relate to this at all.

Psychology interests me - always has. I have always pondered the thought processes that led me to make the decisions I have made in the past, which in some ways has taught me to be aware of them before and during the fact, rather than later or not at all. It doesn't seem to occur to him to even wonder why. On the rare occasion it does, he'll explain it away without much exploration and move on to the next situation.

I provided myself accountability by being open with Patriot about my intentions and I promised myself that no matter what I would tell him everything that was said or done. I was still on dangerous ground, I know. I don't think it was lack of timing. The method might have been too obvious, but even if it were subtle...I'm no idiot. I would have seen it for what it was.

I definitely don't view myself as "more intelligent" than Patriot - not even close. I think perhaps I may just have the advantage of being more intuitive and therefore more self-aware, and also the advantage of having some difficult life experiences that have taught me a little bit about choices and consequences. I still have a lot to learn , obviously.

I was sorry to read you had such a rotten evening last night.

Froz

<small>[ February 20, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>

Froz,

What makes you think he was not completely cognitive?

Noodle

We have discussed this quite a bit. Maybe "cognitive choices" wasn't the best description. He just doesn't always think past the actions to the consequences attached to them. I know this because he told me. I've also been a witness to it in other situations.

Froz,

Yes, but in saying this you ARE saying that he isn't as intelligent..and therefore not as culpable [this is important, most BSs go through this] because you believe that YOU can navigate questionable waters and he cannot.

He is inherently less than your equal.

This is easier to accept..than what is likely closer to the truth..which is that he cognitively CHOSE to take action that he KNEW would harm you..and that he also CHOSE to not think about and consider how this would affect you because he wanted to do it.

He lied to you and to himself and he chose to believe those lies because he willed it so..he wanted to have sex with her..he did not want to include the fallout in the fantasy.

When I say you got a glimpse..it is because you WANTED to go to lunch with this fellow. It was a questionable choice and you KNEW that..but you wanted to do it so you began to rationalize and set conditions.

Neither the rationalizations nor the conditions stopped the opportunity from happening..it is only that this particular opportunity was not appealing enough for you to be swayed.

So..despite having rebuffed his advances..you still took the risk and not failed..but refused to accept the big picture..the possibilities..the fallout.

That is WS thinking..and you got a glimpse.

Use this knowledge to your advantage.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">in saying this you ARE saying that he isn't as intelligent..and therefore not as culpable [this is important, most BSs go through this] because you believe that YOU can navigate questionable waters and he cannot.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, Noodle, would you accept that I am not saying I am more "intelligent", but I guess I am guilty of feeling superior in moral judgement and character? I will own that. I guess it's wrong to feel superior in any way to him. It's the contributing factor to my lack of respect for him and my lack of trust, as well. I was hoping that would increase over time through consistency and good decision-making on his part.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is easier to accept..than what is likely closer to the truth..which is that he cognitively CHOSE to take action that he KNEW would harm you..and that he also CHOSE to not think about and consider how this would affect you because he wanted to do it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OUCH! I discussed this one with him and he confirmed it. Facing this hurt me so badly I had to get off the computer for the rest of the night and instead spent it crying in bed, and in pain, feeling worthless.

Patriot exited the room to do his usual thing - leave me alone and in pain, partly because I think I told him to or at the very least shut him out.

But, guess what? He came right back. I was surprised, to say the least. He talked to me and comforted me. It still hurts, though not as sharply and I didn't have to weather it alone.

Tonight's nightmare:

I was at Patriot's (former) work. It was his last day and OW was there. She was watching me. I saw him from across the room as he walked over near to where she was. He talked to her and I flew into a rage. She confronted me and started hitting me and saying horrible things to me "He doesn't want you, he wants me, you are worthless, etc...He took her side.

Gimble,

I am sorry that I disappointed you.

Froz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> Gimble,

I am sorry that I disappointed you.

Froz </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not disappointed in you!

I am, in fact, very proud of you. I don't base what I think about someone on a single action. I hope no one holds me to that standard either.

I fully expect both of you to learn from your experience. That process will involve some mistakes. That is no big deal, as long as you maintain sight of the goal.

I watched both of you stand your ground on another thread. Regardless of the reasons for finding yourselves in the situation, I think you handled it well.

Learn from the mistake that got you there, and don't repeat.

:-)

You are doing well, Frozen.

Patience and time - your two best friends.

Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not disappointed in you!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't even tell you how relieved I am! Patriot was about to post a thread to you himself just so I would stop fretting. Your help to both Patriot and myself is making such an enormous difference for us. The changes in both of us, the last week in particular, are unbelievable to me. Our discussions on my emotions were a huge turning point for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am, in fact, very proud of you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For what???? I made a huge mistake and deserved the scolding I received from you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I watched both of you stand your ground on another thread.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was pretty interesting, huh? He meant only to explore the subject with a friendly debate, next thing you know...
It did feel good to be on the same side of the fence as Patriot. He and I have an awful lot in common and are pretty like-minded on most topics. Still, given the current situation, we haven't been on the same side of the fence for quite some time.

We did some "homework" yesterday - finished and thoroughly discussed EN Questionnaires. It felt good to be working and moving in a positive direction, but it did place two huge mountains in front of me that seem pretty insurmountable. There seem to be two of Patriot's needs (# 1, and # 2, ironically) that I feel are going to be next to impossible for me to meet for years to come, if ever.

Thank you again - if I haven't already said it today - for everything.

Hi Frozen.

I am very glad that I have been of help to you and Patriot. You are very welcome.

Standing together is a good thing for a couple. It makes for strong bonds, and healthy marriages. Seeing the two of you work in agreement, said a lot about how things are going with you two.

Quote:
=====================================
We did some "homework" yesterday - finished and thoroughly discussed EN Questionnaires. It felt good to be working and moving in a positive direction, but it did place two huge mountains in front of me that seem pretty insurmountable. There seem to be two of Patriot's needs (# 1, and # 2, ironically) that I feel are going to be next to impossible for me to meet for years to come, if ever.
=====================================

I am very glad that you took the questionnaires.

Assuming that #1 and #2 are affection and sex respectively, why would you think that you will never be able to meet those needs?.

Gimble

Uhhhh.....How did you know that?????????????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> Uhhhh.....How did you know that????????????? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Common sense :-)

I am off to bed right now, but let me know when you are ready to work on them. It is not impossible to do. And you will need to address those needs sooner rather than later.

All the best,
Gimble

Affection: He stated that he wants to be respected and trusted. My difficulty meeting this one is obvious.

Sex: The problem with this one is he feels it is lacking a "deep emotional connection". I feel extremely anxious, uncomfortable, and inadequate during and after. There's a little more to it...In case you're already gone, I'd rather not post it for all the world to see until you return.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> Affection: He stated that he wants to be respected and trusted. My difficulty meeting this one is obvious.

It's a good long term goal. One that is highly contingent on his own dedication to being trustworthy and respectable..his previous behavior was neither..he will have to create NEW history. This will take time and MUCH effort.

Sex: The problem with this one is he feels it is lacking a "deep emotional connection". I feel extremely anxious, uncomfortable, and inadequate during and after. There's a little more to it...In case you're already gone, I'd rather not post it for all the world to see until you return. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I had a solution to this one..two years out I still haven't. if you find it let me know.

Change that "Affection" to "Admiration". Sorry. It was the middle of the night.

correcting a minor faux pas, the #1 was admiration.

I want to be valued, respected and appreciated. That said, I truly feel valued primarily due to her trying so hard to work with me on all of this.

As has been stated before and I am sure will be again, she has all the reason she needs to cut her losses and blow this popsicle stand. blessed is the WS who has a BS will to deal with their BS. So to say...

The appreciated has taken a hit, somewhat, but recovering. I really haven't considered this one much. She doesn't take me for granted, that is for sure.

Respect. Interesting. An Army Value, no less. Well, if respect was an account at the local bank, these folks would be ringing my phone off the hook to collect all the overdraft charges I have run up. This is really the key portion of admiration that Is at the root of my need. Will I be able to get it from her? I believe so. I have tons of hope for us. However, I will not subscribe to any other theory but this.

I did this to her, us and then me. She is the victim. As some here so eloquently put it, I am doing the time. Because the crime has already occured.

It is interesting to me to grasp the idea that a lot of what fixes all of this, I have tons of.

Time. Sure, there are many other parts and to think that time is all I need to have is short-sighted. Even so, I sure have a surplus of time. Or so it would seem.

SFC Patriot,

I've been thinking about this quite a lot:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to be valued, respected and appreciated.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Valued: To regard highly; esteem

Respected: The state of being regarded with honor or esteem

Appreciated: To admire greatly; value

Esteem (since it kept popping up): To regard with respect; prize

Honor (just for kicks): Principled uprightedness of character; personal integrity or high respect.

These all seem to be pretty closely tied together.

Since these are your needs and I DO desire to meet them, I suppose your definition of them would be more helpful.

Your mission (should you choose to accept it):

Please write out the definitions of these words as defined by YOU and specific actions that could be taken that would convey these feelings to you.

It would be of great VALUE to me if you did this, and I would truly APPRECIATE and RESPECT you for doing so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is interesting to me to grasp the idea that a lot of what fixes all of this, I have tons of.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder what the heck THAT means.

Mrs. SFC Patriot

P.S. Kindly get back to your own thread.