On this thread here, froz had discussed a meeting between her and another man. Sure, I am not happy she did it, but over the course of the thread it brought up an interesting point that I would like to get some responses to.

Ark^^(not that I mean to pick on you) advised Froz to contact this man's wife with this information of "just so you know, he wants to have an affair with me, propositioned me in fact, and states he has had affairs before."

Now, my question is; Why should froz contact this woman to tell her what her H has said?

lord, I hope I don't get misunderstood here and you folks start hitting me with the "yer all in the fog, punk" talk....

First, the facts. No affair has taken place. It was confessed to me immediately, during, before, after.... all that. He said he was interested in an affair with her. It is, in fact, only something he said. Also, his confession of affairs previously, although probably true because who would make that up to be cool, is also just something he said. Hearsay.

Now, all gut feelings of entitlement aside, is it really anyone's responsibility to practice radical honesty with anyone other than the spouse? So, since froz should call the spouse of this [censored] and "tell her the truth", according to the advice, does this mean I need to contact every person with everything I know that I am sure they don't know?

Hey, a friend of mine doesn't report all his income to the IRS and I know it. I'm calling Uncle Sam.

Hey, a complete stranger told me that once, ten years ago, they committed insurance fraud. What's the number?

Hey, my father told me mom drives him crazy sometimes. Let's call mom.

My gov't job has me keep lots of secrets, and I have clearance. You don't but here's the info, while we are being forethcoming and all.

The policy of Radical Honesty sums up this way to me.
</font>

1. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Radical honesty is between you and your spouse.</font></li>
2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Radical honesty is about you.
   </font>
   1. </font></li>
   2. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your thoughts</font></li>
   3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your history</font></li>
   4. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your day</font></li>
   5. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your future.</font></li>
3. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
No where in the policy does it convey to me that I am required to practice this type of honesty with anyone else but Froz. Also, no where in Radical Honesty did I find where I was to proxy this behavior. "Mr. [censored]'s wife probably doesn't know about his previous affairs, and she doesn't know about him talking to me about one, so let me practice his radical honesty for him."

Regardless of your opinion of me and the fact that I am a WS, set that down for a minute.

Try this on. Everything you have ever heard, seen or witnessed, or done that no one knows about now has to come out. All of it. If you are big enough to "rat" out everyone who has confided in you or stated things to you that you disagree with, then you are big enough to "rat" yourself out too. Right? So go ahead and tell Mom she was the worst you had ever seen at being a mother. Tell the neighbor that his <whatever> is the best and you are going to take it. Tell those gov't secrets, because that information affects us all.

I probably did not make a great point here, it's 4:00am. However, Marriage is an important thing to me. But simply because I want a good marriage, I find it difficult to understand where it is my(or anyones) responsibility to go galvanting around the countryside letting cats out of the bag for everyone.

So, please debate this with me and give me your opinions.

patriot,

This isn't about Radical Honesty...it's about exposure...completely different concept. So, what is the purpose of exposure in the instance you describe:

*It gives the other spouse information they need to save their marriage or decide if they want to continue their marriage.

*It protects the other BS's health because it's a pretty dangerous world right now if your H is sleeping around.

*It puts pressure on both sides of an A to prevent it from progressing.

All that being said....I prefer to use exposure sparingly and for ONGOING affairs. But you asked what the purpose of telling the other spouse was...so I've offered you those reasons.

patriot--i feel it is living in honesty from now on. maybe you cant go back and undo all the lies and secrecy's of the past----but you can choose to live honestly from now on---dont believe you can pick and choose what your gonna be honest about. its a lifestyle choice. i use to believe you could let the little dishonesty's go...but it sets up the enviroment.....either live in honesty or not---its a choice from this day on!

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Question -

A few weeks ago, I was discussing the Policy of Radical Honesty in a marriage with one of my clients. She is a sixty-ish aged woman for whom I have the utmost respect. She disagreed with the concept. She had her reasons...

She happens to be a recovering alcoholic. Through AA's Twelve Steps of recovery she has been taught concepts. Step Eight and Nine are

8.) Made a list of all persons you have harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.

9.) Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Recovering alcoholics are taught that it is selfish to purge yourself in order to feel better at someone else's expense. This client of mine confided to me that she had an affair years and years before while she was still drinking. She said she would never tell her husband because it would injure him, and would, therefore, be selfish to do so.

I now possess this knowledge. Does that make it my responsibility to inform my client's husband?

What makes me the "Marriage Police"?

I believe in Radical Honesty within the marriage. I exposed Patriot's A five days after d-day. I did it because this A directly affected my marriage. I also did it because I wanted OW to suffer the consequences of her actions (Radical Honesty, right?). Those were my reasons. But, is each and every case of infidelity my responsibility to expose?

hmm - that's a toughy

I know that about a mnth ago I had a friend who was having a friendship with a man not her husband, but also a good friend of her husbands. I know from personal experience, that friendship had red flags all over it. But she insisted it was under control...but the things the discussed were secret - seperate from her H.

My H is good friends with her H, and called my friend and said - look - you have one week to talk about this with your H, to bring it out in the open so that you prevent what happened to us, happening to you. She was quite offended. Her story changed of course - originally - her and this friend talked about an affair once or twice, but didn't want to ruin their marriages, but their latest talk had the friend saying WHAT??? and her saying PHEW, maybe it was a misunderstanding...and she told that story to her H, who said no worries - i trust you.

H and I kinda backed off - it's not our job to tattle...she may have sugar coated it - but atleast she did talk to her H...I just see her in a very dangerous position.

Her words to me - I am not you, I have values, my Dad cheated and I am still mad at him, I would never cheat - I am just friends - he is a dear friend to me. I just shook my head. I also said I would never cheat as both my Dad's have had affairs on my mom. I looked down on cheaters...I had a dear friendship, where conversations started to become secret...and flirting took place and I too used the excuse - I'm just a flirt and that's who I am....

ANYHOW - i seem to be thread jacking. My point is - if you and froz feel together it is the right thing, to give his wife a chance to know atleast...that is up to you guys. As long as you do it together.

Also,I know that due to my lying during my A, H wanted me to call in sick for him one day after Christmas...when he wasn't sick and I almost puked doing it, as my new change in life is not to lie, and lying came so easy for me during the A, that even one lie now made me sick...so I know that if I ran into that man's wife (in my case) I would have to tell her..

Damn - I ramble far too much - not sure if I even helped...but anyhow....I think that if you and Froz feel it's nessessary and both agree, you do it together, as a couple. Not one at a time...but together.

-ds

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am very very surprised at your mind-set that the crisis this woman potentially faces is not of your concern....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never stated that I was not concerned for someone else's situation. I am merely weighing options as it is an important decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I believe in her right to know...
just as I support you in your right to know...
It is sad that you and patriot don't see it like that....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We DO believe that she has a right to know. What we are weighing is whether it is OUR place to tell her or anyone else's spouse.

Do you remember the thread a bit back "Falling In Love With A Prostitute"? Everyone here encouraged Mindsink to expose his affair to his wife. By your logic, wouldn't everyone here be obligated to find out who Mindsink was by any means necessary and expose him to his wife?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">make sure that you tell your clent at work how much you admire her choice to keep her own husband from making informed decisions in his life out of her great desire not to hurt him...even though it is hurt she brought .....
I for one would have no respect for her...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First, my respect for her is based on her personality as a whole and things she has overcome in her life. She doesn't have to be perfect to earn my respect.

Second, I would never say such a thing to a client. This is a business situation, not a personal one, regardless of the fact that sometimes my clients divulge personal information to me. My job is to listen, not to judge. On the subject of judging, this client holds her own belief system based on principles she has learned in AA that have benefitted her in tremendous ways. Patriot and I DO believe in the concept of Radical Honesty. But who are we to say that our belief system is right and hers is wrong? I DO believe she could have a better marriage if she disclosed her affair to her husband. But she does not. That's HER belief. If we were Methodist and she were Baptist, would it be fair to impose our beliefs on her and expect her to adopt them? I don't think so.

As far as Radical Honesty goes...isn't that concept about a relationship with your spouse? Where in the Policy of Radical Honesty does it say I have to disclose all of my past, any of my future or any other facet of my life, completely and openly with a friend, business acquaintance, or anyone else?

Who are we to tell someone else -
What YOU believe is wrong, and what I believe is right...so, I will then coerce you into believing it. Or, rather, I will coerce you into dealing with it.

Is this what MB is all about?

Patriot and Frozen

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by frozen1229:
<strong> What YOU believe is wrong, and what I believe is right...so, I will then coerce you into believing it. Or, rather, I will coerce you into dealing with it.

Is this what MB is all about?

Patriot and Frozen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have followed your story very closely and must say that I admire both of you a great deal for working through the affair. Your presence here at MB has been very helpful for me, and many others I am sure.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with forcing your beliefs about Radical Honesty on anyone.

It has nothing to do with what MB is "all" about.

You asked about opinions of people on this board.

Of course it is not your responsibility to report every single case of infidelity...or be the Marriage Police....or for anyone to go to a MB poster's wife "through any means possible" to expose to her...

You asked about a situation in which YOU were propositioned by another womans husband.

YOU are, like it or not, pulled into that situation by that man. You didn't ask to be, you don't want to be, but you are.

YOU have firsthand knowledge, not secondhand, not a confession from a client, not something you read on an internet chat board, PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE and INTERACTION with a man who tried to cheat on his wife.

Neither one of you HAVE to do anything. Should you? In my opinion, yes. But that is my opinion. What if Patriot had propositioned another woman before his affair began? What if she said something? Who knows what that what if would have led to but you would have had SOME knowledge that something was up.

I know I would want to know. I guess that is what I choose to base my decisions on how I try to deal with other people. Would I want to know my husband propositioned you for an affair and told you he had done it before?

You bet. Then I can deal with things.

There was a post here not long ago, I think it was on Patriots BS questions thread in fact, that someone pointed out that one of the reasons we BS's want to know every detail is to remove the intimacy and secrecy the A partners create for themselves. Well, that man created a secret and intimate moment that I, as a BS, would want to know every word about. You didn't create it and you didn't want it, but nonetheless, it is there now.

I guess, in my opinion, it's about whether to allow that secret to continue. It's not radical honesty and it's not marriage police. It's about what to do with a situation that YOU ARE A PART OF.

Faithinme,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have followed your story very closely and must say that I admire both of you a great deal for working through the affair. Your presence here at MB has been very helpful for me, and many others I am sure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for sharing that with us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You asked about opinions of people on this board.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our intention is not to argue with the opinions others have shared, it's simply to explore other people's viewpoints and ideas. I think this particular situation got Patriot to thinking "Where do you draw the line with Radial Honesty and Exposure?" and he merely wanted to explore it.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would I want to know my husband propositioned you for an affair and told you he had done it before?

You bet. Then I can deal with things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An excellent point.

I would also want to know and for that very reason. If I do decide to disclose, I really wish a proposition was all I had information about. I wish I hadn't asked him if he had had other affairs in the past.

I appreciate everyone's posts. It's a pretty weighty thing - divulging information to a woman I've never even met that will impact her life. I realize that his actions are what impact her life in actuality, but my sharing the information with her is an impact, also. Just because you and I would want to know doesn't mean everyone would. I've actually heard women say that they WOULDN'T want to know. I hate that I am in a position to make that decision for her.

It would be difficult to find her. I don't know where he lives. I don't have his home phone number and it's not listed. His cell number is on my call log, but that only leads me to him, not to her. If I really wanted to be resourceful, I could call him on his cell phone, arrange a meeting for lunch, and then have Patriot follow him home after lunch, assuming that would be his next stop. That seems a little extreme, and I doubt Patriot would be willing to sacrficice his comfort (my having lunch with the guy again) just so I could disclose all to this guy's wife! It might be different if these were actually people we knew well. This guy isn't exactly a friend. I used the term pretty loosely for lack of a better term. He is simply an "acquaintance" from my distant past.

Frozen

I understand your discomfort at the idea of dropping this bomb into someone's life. However, I think you need to look closely at that discomfort and be honest with yourself about what you fear. It's all too easy to hide behind 'reluctance to hurt', when what you unconsciously mean is 'reluctance to BE hurt.' Why else would Patriot dread answering your questions about his A?

For one thing - if you tell this woman, where will she think you got the information from? You must have been in a sufficiently intimate situation with him for his to feel 'safe' to tell you this. This may reveal YOU in an unflattering light. Are you prepared to face your own culpability in this way?

For another thing - the man is likely to deny, deny, deny. (Isn't that what your client might do if someone told the truth to HER husband? She wouldn't want him hurt, right?) But the man then has to rubbish you, to rob your testimony of credibility. If she believes him - as she well might - you will look like a fool. You will FEEL like a fool, if you tell and nothing happens.

Whether you tell or not is your decision. But please be honest with yourself about the decision you have to make. Deceiving yourself will not help you in your struggle to survive this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We DO believe that she has a right to know. What we are weighing is whether it is OUR place to tell her or anyone else's spouse.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm curious. Whose 'place' do you think it is?

TogetherAlone

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must have been in a sufficiently intimate situation with him for his to feel 'safe' to tell you this. This may reveal YOU in an unflattering light. Are you prepared to face your own culpability in this way?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Completely. The setting was not intimate in the least. He sat across the table from me in a booth at a restaurant in a public place. I didn't even touch him, except to shake his hand when we parted ways.

I would not be concerned at all with what light I would be viewed in by a woman I don't know, particularly when I was giving her information that was very damaging to her. I would be much more concerned with her feelings than whether or not I came out looking "rosy". It's not about me. It's about her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she believes him - as she well might - you will look like a fool. You will FEEL like a fool, if you tell and nothing happens.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she chose not to believe him, that would be her decision. I would most likely not know the outcome as these are people who are not part of our social circle and we have no mutual friends. Therefore, I would not feel foolish in the least.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whose 'place' do you think it is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her WS's, primarly. Perhaps I would feel more like it were my place if I knew them better or even had occasion to run into them.

I honestly was not considering how I felt or how I would look. My consideration is about what is or isn't my responsibility, obligation, and about what exactly is the "right" thing to do.

Exposure is to end an ongoing A.

If everyone is going to start reporting every pass made at them we're all going to be darned busy.

Jen

Patriot and Frozen,

I have read these posts and there are some excellent ideas. However, I do think there are some confusions taking place. Perhaps if I offer my opinion about a few of the questions being asked, then the discussion will take a more concrete form.

1. Radical honesty is to be between a couple and does not even extended to children according to Harley. So extending it to someone else is moot.

2. Personal integrity is a very valuable quantity and I believe requires careful consideration of many of life's situation.

3. Business relationships often,and certainly medical and legal relationships, REQUIRE the maintaining of confidences and priviliged information.

4. As was suggested, any decision that affects both partners should be POJA'd.

So in the world I just set up with the points above, Frozen's client's disclosure should NOT lead to an action on Frozen's part because of item 3. Plus, while I disagree with her client that no harm has come to the H, I am betting it has. However, if she has no conscience (the motivator for many late disclosures), then she would unlikely be able to help her husband when/if he found out. By the way AA has some excellent guidelines for dealing with addictions. However, she is using item 9 to cover for the fact that she does not have the integrity to do 8.

In my world the man that came on to Frozen is a menance to their marriage and to his own marriage. So how best to keep him away? One is to disclose his comments to his W just as Frozen did to Patriot. This HELPS his W, but it has the added advantage that it helps protect P&F's marriage.

However, since no affiar took place, disclosure is a protection strategy that P&F must POJA on. Fro did use "radical honesty" when she told Patriot.

So now, given what I have said, what is the question again? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Seriously, which issue is really under discussion now.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> exactly the wisdom this thread needed. Miss you posting lately.

Froz

There's something about this that's nagging me. I went back to your thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At lunch, this guy told me straight out he still thinks about me (after 12 years) and wants to have an affair with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, I'm married to a (hopefully ex-) serial adulterer. I have been privy to a LOAD of information about his activities - far more than I actually wanted. But one thing I did learn is that the practiced adulterer is an expert at recognising opportunities. And from all my researches into the whacky world of serial cheaters, I think my H is pretty typical. Essentially, he was constantly looking for an opening (pardon the bad-taste pun). He could spot restlessness, boredom, a yearning for adventure, recklessness, in women - and he's told me that he could tell what woman was 'up for it', or might be up for it if circumstances changed.

That's why I find it hard to believe that this guy came right out with 'I still lust for you', unless he'd picked up signs. You HAD to be giving off 'available' vibes. He wouldn't have risked the approach otherwise.

You also wrote about two men you'd connected with at weddings, one of who you kept in touch with:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Oddly enough, he e-mailed me two weeks ago. He wondered if I was married yet. I told him everything. He listened and was supportive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You told him everything? About Patriot's A? To a man you were attracted to? And then told Patriot?

Froz, there's something odd going on here.

TogetherAlone

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 07:48 AM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

TogetherAlone,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Froz, there's something odd going on here.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, there are LOTS of odd things going on here...My fiance had an affair with someone else. I then married him anyway. Everything in my life subsequent to that is odd. This whole situation is odd, to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I find it hard to believe that this guy came right out with 'I still lust for you', unless he'd picked up signs. You HAD to be giving off 'available' vibes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since I had already told him what was going on in my life, it didn't take a genius to figure out that I was vulnerable. No batting eyelashes or sidelong glances were necessary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He wouldn't have risked the approach otherwise. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps...If I were a new conquest. I've already stated that we have had a sexual relationship before. Familiarity eliminates a lot of the risk for him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You told him everything? About Patriot's A? To a man you were attracted to?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, yes, and yes. I have also told you and countless others on this forum. I am going through a difficult time and need someone to talk to. I feel isolated from my usual support system because they are too close to me for me to feel comfortable discussing it with them and I have chosen instead to discuss it with people who aren't too close to me. My reasons?

Guy # 1 (the one I did have a relationship with): I chose to tell because he's not too close to me, the biggest part of our relationship (he wasn't even a boyfriend) was that he helped me through a very difficult situation in the past. He has a history of "listening" to me and that also made me feel comfortable talking to him. I've also noticed that since we had lunch, he hasn't called. One might surmise that he picked up a "vibe" that I was, in fact, not interested in pursuing a future sexual relationship with him.

Guy # 2: Part of what attracted me to him when I met him at that wedding was that he was very easy to talk to. As soon as he found out that I was involved in a relationship (Patriot and I weren't even engaged at this time), our relationship took a friendly tone. We rarely communicate and on the occassions that we have, it is generally by e-mail just to ask what is new with the other and to say hello. Sure, we were attracted to each other - but our friendship was never inappropriate. We have never discussed that initial attraction to each other, and never met each other's EN's. I have also never lied to Patriot about any contact with either of these men.

Given our current situation, Patriot is no longer comfortable with any further contact between either of these men and myself. Fine by me. I don't even consider it a sacrifice as these two relationships are not CLOSE friends.

Given what we have learned thus far through MB, we have both set boundaries regarding our marriage and any friendships with the opposite sex. I will have no further contact with either of them or any other man. I have no desire to. It was poor judgement and disrespectful on my part to have discussed our situation with other men. I am aware of that now and will change my behavior accordingly. Patriot understands my need to talk about my feelings. We have clearly defined boundaries that protect him and our marriage and I will abide by them in the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And then told Patriot?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course I told him. I tell him everything and always have. I had no devious intentions. There is no "mystery" here.

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: frozen1229 ]</small>