Had the D talk this weekend. WH doesn't feel we have any other option. He has not been willing to work on our marriage. He does go to MC with me but I think our MC would rather see us D than for me to stay with a "passive aggressive" man.
My WH thinks there has been too much hurt over the years to recover from, doesn't believe that I can change my habits of verbally abusing him. He really fears coming home because it will be the same and he can not live through being hurt any more. All I can do is tell him that I love him, and show him that I am truely working on myself. He is also afraid that he will lose his little apartment to someone else if he moves back home.

I know in my heart that divorce makes sense because once again he refuses to participate, blames everything on me and stone walls every step towards reconciling. He even told me this week that after the last time we had SF he realized he was just using me. Here I am thinking that continued SF was supposed to bring people closer because of all the brain chemistry and that acting loving towards your spouse is supposed to make them feel that back...huh??? Am I stupid for wanting this man?

His latest is that he got angry when I started providing him with info about divorce in our state. He doesn't believe that attorneys require a retainer. He can't believe the audacity of the state law that child support is based on ALL EARNED income before taxes. He deosn't realize that if he wants his CS payments to be lower then he has to have the kids for more time, which means he needs more than a pullout couch for them.
He says I am using the law against him and he thinks we can work out some type of "gentleman's agreement".

Anyhow the man point of this post is WHY CAN"T I LET GO!!!! I cried so hard when he finally said that he felt we should D. I can't get over the idea of him having a new life with someone else. Especially him taking a new love to the family summer house, where we go as a family and have made so many memories. I was the only woman he ever took there!!! The property is not marital and I will lose that. I can't stand the thought of going out and seeing him with someone else...this is the crux for me. I don't now how to deal with this. Last night he had dinner with me and DD's, then we played games. How can I stop wanting those times to continue. I feel I am at my emotional lowest. It would be easier if I moved to a different city/state. I don't think I can handle still having him in my life without really being together. Going to post this on the D board as well.

Homer, honestly if you feel your MC wants you to D, I don't think he/she is helping with your underlying M issues. Or you and your WH with your combined underlying issues. Before Plan D, I would look for another MC.

I also encourage you to STOP LISTENING TO EVERYTHING YOUR WH SAYS! My FWH said all those same things, practically verbatim. It is a WS thing, not necessarily a Mr. Homer thing. Does that make sense?

What I recommend, is ONLY communicating with him right now at MC. The other stuff needs to be handled through business-like, short emails, regarding kids and finances only.

He needs to play with his kids at HIS place, on HIS days, HIS time. Don't tell him stuff about D, don't tell him he might need a bigger apartment, or more time with the kids. He is a big boy, who wants to be on his own. Let him realize these things on his own, by requiring him to have the kids at his place ~ by himself. Yep, on his days, he is responsible for entertaining them, feeding them, finding a place for them to sleep. If they don't sleep well on his fold-out bed, he'll figure that out soon enough the next morning when they are cranky. And you will NOT BE AVAILABLE to help him out, cover for his choices.

Let him live his life exactly as he wants to. He wants to be on his own? GREAT! FANtastic! Less work for you. Come up with an interim schedule for the kids that you can agree on. For instance, my FWH had the boys Tuesday and Thursday nights, for dinner, and every-other weekend. They rarely slept over on school nights, as that would be too disruptive.

Realize that you can only control you. You can still love him. You don't have to let him go all the way. You don't have to let go of your dream of reconcilliation in the future. BUT, you have to worry about destroying what is left of the M before it has had time to be rebuilt.

Let him do what he wants. And support him! He sends you an email saying, "Can I swap Tuesday for Wednesday with the kids, something came up."

"Sure (as long as you didn't have anything already planned). I'll drop them off at this time."

Give him NO REASON to blame you for ANYTHING going on in his life. Do not let your happiness be dependent on his actions, IMO. When my H realized that I was HAPPY, and he was still doing what he wanted, that took a HUGE pressure off him. See, your WH's behavior right now, is probably coming from a place you don't realize. He could be lashing out at you to get you to BACK OFF and leave him alone. This is probably something he wants to do ON HIS OWN, and if you are constantly trying to control the outcome (either by reconciling, or by giving him suggestions about the D ~ his apartment ~ the time he spends with his kids), you will continue to be the focus of his negative energy.

Guess what happens to that energy when you remove yourself from the equation? He will be forced to look only at himself. That is the fastest way, IMO, that a WS can figure out what is going on with THEM. As long as you help create all this chaos in his life, he will only focus on all YOUR flaws. He needs time and space to focus on HIS flaws. And him knowing, deep down (where he will NOT admit to you now ~ later yes, now, NO), that you are focusing on YOUR flaws, will speed up his recovery, as well.

You must see the other side of the same coin. Your actions need to be different, but in doing them differently, you can acheive what you are trying to do now that isn't working ~ helping your WH. In the only way you can, which is to take care of you and the kids, and GET OUT OF HIS LIFE AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. By doing that, you give him the chance to remember all your positive attributes.

Spidey

Spidey...I know this to be true, but sometimes I do these "controlling" things without even realizing that they are controlling. Not sure if there are good books out there on "how not to be a controlling bi@$&" or not. I wrote him a letter yesterday just confirming to him that I loved him, and I didn't want to lose him. I asked him to give me a chance to show him that I could address my issues, and asked him for help to rebuild our marriage and start fresh. Maybe that was putting too much pressure on him. I agree that I need to take all focus off of him. I am afraid that if I make demands that he take the kids he will get angry at that too, as use that against me as being controlling.

Thanks for your insight.

Hi Homer,

Your H sounds (still) really confused, to say the least!!

Just wanted you to know I'm thinking about you... stay strong!

tqt

Homer, honestly, you don't need a book to realize your control issues. I will tell you how I realized mine ~ I was BRUTALLY honest with MYSELF.

I'll give you an example. Last year, Valentine's day. H and I were separated, had been for 6 weeks. I REALLY wanted him to be thinking about me, in a good way, and NOT OW. So, I decided that me and the kids would bake his FAVORITE chocolate chip cookies. Well, the boys weren't interested, so I did it. Then, I took the cookies and the boys to his place, and they ended up spending the night. I stayed in the car, didn't contact him directly, and was feeling pretty self-satisfied that I had weasled my way into his thoughts with my "great" idea.

At MC (the one we ended up NOT staying with, she just didn't work for us) that week, H was LIVID at me. He didn't know what to do with the cookies, wanted to throw them out, ended up taking them to work ~ he didn't eat even ONE. He felt that I was trying to control him.

Well, my denial was in full force. HOW could he think I was trying to control him? I was trying to be nice, show him my love for him since he wouldn't accept it any other way, blah blah blah.

But in the deep, dark parts of me, I KNEW I had tried to manipulate him with those cookies. I tried to make him think of me, and in a positive way even! And he just didn't want to.

Fast forward to the end of February, H's birthday. The only thing that gave H joy at that time was his kids. That was it. So, I asked them what kind of cake they wanted to make their dad. German Chocolate, his favorite. I ALWAYS made his cake from scratch. This time, I took the boys to the store and they picked out the mix and frosting. We came home, they made that cake 100%. It was lumpy, bumpy, WAYY not even, they put the frosting on too soon and ripped the top off the thing, the frosting stuck to the lid of the pan, etc. It was ugly. And H LOVED it.

For his gift, I asked the boys what they wanted to get him. They got 3 all-day passes to a local game place, and all 3 of them spent the day playing video games and laser tag and bumper cars. H LOVED it.

All I did was facilitate for his kids. I allowed them to give to him, the only joy he could accept. My H DID have warm feelings for me at that time. Because he realized that my intention at THAT time, was to give him the joy he could accept ~ NOT my love that he could NOT accept.

Does that make sense? All you need is to look at your actions and be brutally honest with yourself. For instance, what was the purpose of writing that letter to him? Brutally honest. I see it as a way for you to try and control, to manipulate, his feelings, his actions. Honestly, was that letter intended to help him, or you?

The more you try and get comfort/love/even niceness, from your WH, the worse you are going to feel. He cannot give any of that to you right now. You MUST facilitate good feelings on your own.

Spidey

You sound like I was when my WH was in the state that yours was. I just couldn't let go and accept.

You are getting some very good advice here. Steve Harley told me that with these WS they are addicted and blame everything and everyone else but their own addiction for the problems in their lives. He said you just put them in a "room" figuratively and take away everything and everyone, one by one until he is by himself in the room with NO ONE but himself to blame. He may get it, he may not, but ALL of this is up to him.

At this point you need to accept that you have a WH with his head messed up. You can talk and talk all day long but until he SEES you have changed over a period of time he won't believe it, and even then he will be scared, because now you have changed the R dynamic and he will not be able to keep blaming you.

I read a very effective book that I will recommend to you, "Embracing Uncertainty" by Susan Jeffers. VERY good, quick read to help you stop trying to control things--your M, your H and let go. You realize that you will be OK no matter what happens and then let go.

I felt very similar to how you are describing yourself and I can tell you that I am a much, much happier person now that I am aware of my control tendencies and have been able to let go. I am not perfect, but I have come a long way. I still fall into the trap from time to time, but I can recognize it for what it is and change my behavior and thoughts.

All I can tell you is that things will not stay this way forever. Even if your WH does not grow up and you divorce, you have control over YOURSELF and how you handle the situation and start your new life. It is all there for you, I promise! Hang in there. Take care of you now, concentrate on making you the healthiest person you can be, the happiest and at peace as you can be with or without your H.

I know this seems very hard, and it is, but it is simple and if you keep yourself headed down the path, great riches await. I know, I did it.

H-
To often we are polarized by the spectre of *what if*rather then *what is.* He is living some where else at the moment and will continue to do so, so what is really going to change? You are allowing yourself to be traumatized by a word. Divorce in concept is horrible but in reality, all it is, is a word. Finality comes only when one or both of you decide that no further discourse is possible.

I think that what you need to do is MAKE this process end up being just one more costly and difficult step toward achieving reconciliation. Divorce doesn’t have to signal the end of anything if you refuse to let it. It’s just a legal term and means nothing in the end unless you decide to accept its finality.

Maybe what you need to do is allow your H to have his way in this matter, while taking the time and making the effort to SHOW him, (not tell him but SHOW him) that you are really GOING to be a different woman…not just for him…but for YOUSELF!

Also, take heart in the fact that in the end, the males of this species we call humanity, tend to be a rather lazy, easily confused and easily won over by comfort and familiarity. LOL Your H may think being single and away is preferable to staying and working to make things better, but given some time, I imagine that living the single life will provide him with a whole and new different set of problems that will soon not seem so terrific to him. While you? You will always be there, the mother of his children and the woman in his life that he will always feel he can turn too. The trick is to let him figure this out on his own and find a way to win you back.

Good luck and keep your chin up!
Coach

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, take heart in the fact that in the end, the males of this species we call humanity, tend to be a rather lazy, easily confused and easily won over by comfort and familiarity. LOL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know about laziness or easily confused, but I do know that it is human nature to take the path of least resistance. While "single," my NOT ONCE was able to pull off a home cooked meal. Can he cook? Yes, he knows how. He said each time he went to make something, he realized he didn't have something he needed ~ an ingredient, a pan, etc.

He works full-time, and I have always taken care of everything else. All of those little things tend to add up when they are left alone long enough to realize.

Anne and coach, again, you two have such great words. You are getting GREAT advice here, Homer. The path to personal recovery and personal happiness is not easy, but . . . it is the BEST thing I have ever done for ME, in my life. When I realized that I was going to be fine, no matter what, and let go of my fear and need to control, my entire life turned around. And I use those same things I learned in my life still.

Spidey

Man, oh man is this thread speaking to me. I feel like I'm a ways behind Homer on the relationship curve. Thanks everybody, your advice is meaningful to a lot of us.

Anne, thanks for the recommendation on Susan Jeffers. She has an affirmation/book "Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway". This is my new motto. Homer sounds like this applies to your situation too. Feel the fear of letting go and let go anyway.

Spyder and Anne have helped me uncover something I have been struggling with ALL OF MY LIFE. Issues of control. I am still trying to control my husband by using my emotions and his own emotions to achieve what I want. I am a control freak when it comes to my daily life. Nothing like Brie on Desperate Housewives though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
But I see it with my DD's, when I am driving in the car... Did I ever tell you I wanted to be a cop? Again...control of others behavior, and getting very angry when I can't.

I guess I have lots to talk to the IC about this week. My incredible Mom has always been an enabler, always trying to fix things that she can't. I guess I am like that...not sure what my fear is. I really don't have a clue. But I am trying.

Homer, you ROCK.

Recognition of what within yourself you WANT to change is the most important, first step! Homer, you are beginning your own awesome journey into yourself! Congratulate yourself for your bravery, courage, loving nature and womanhood!

Work on this stuff and let your H and the M go for a while. You will have plenty to do, I know I did and still do--for a long time to come.

Gotta run, but I will check in with you.

Hey Homer! What's going on today? How are you feeling? Just wanted you to know I was thinking of you.

Homer,
This sounds just like my situation. And the control freak thing....I am the Prime Minister! Once I started seeing what I was doing....I have tried to recognize it when I do it. Sometimes I ask myself...say a situation with the kids....is this going to matter in 5 years? It helps.

Dont feel alone in the control issue. A lot of us are there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spider..Anne...Katie..Anyone....I mentioned in my first post about my WH claiming that the SF meant nothing to him anymore and that he felt he was using me. What do I do with that? Do I still initiate SF knowing he feels this way? Do I tell him its OK? OR should I be suspicious that he has hooked up with someone else and he is telling me the only way he knows how.

I am to the point of telling him if he wants a D then he will have to file, because I can not bring myself to do something I don't believe in.

I don't want to do this anymore. I read all the posts and get so depressed. How the WS's do the things they do, with no remorse. How the BS's suffer so. I just don't know why we do it. I am understanding my need to control with words both kind and not so kind. But today I took the chance of emailing WH to ask him if he would be agreeable to getting together to read a marriage self help book. That was over 3 hours ago and no response. I get devasted that he has so little regard for my feelings. Why the hell do I continue to love someone who obviously has no love or even empathy for me. I am starting to believe that I do have a very big unhealthy problem on my hands and its not him

Hi Homer,
Did you hear back from your WH yet?

Homer, do not meet his need for SF until he has committed to the rebuilding of the M, IMO.

I think it is an emotional pitfall for you, and enables his cake-eating. You are truly making it too easy for him to get everything he NEEDS from you and his family, and he doesn't have to give ANYthing back.

Honestly, just don't email him anymore. You are just as addicted to him, as he is/was to the OW. If you expect him to be able to break his addiction, you must break your addiction to him. Lead by example.

Just let go that you don't know if he is going to work on the M or not. Just let go that he is self-absorbed and doesn't care about your feelings right now. He isn't going to care, unfortunately, until you are able to truly care less what he does or doesn't do.

Does that mean that you have to fall out of love with him, or stop caring about him? Heck no! But when someone is hurtful, you are not required to condone their hurtful actions, nor are you required to tell them how you feel about them.

Just ignore, except kids and finances. If he wanted to save the M right now, he would move home. If he was sure that he wanted to be M'd to you, he would be home, and he would TELL you that SF was meaningful to him.

He is not telling/showing you any of those things. He has moved out. He is saying he doesn't want to be part of the M right now. He wants to make his OWN decisions. He MIGHT want to save the M, until YOU start talking about it (again). Then, his brain just shuts off, and he wants to do the OPPOSITE ~ because right now, he will resist ANYthing you want. It is the nature of the WS (the very nature of MY FWH).

You need to stop all letters/emails/R talks, etc. I know it is hard. For some reason, when they pull away, us BS's just want to chase and hover and cling and talk. But they don't. You need to start with a commitment for one day. For one day, you are not going to contact him. Then, you get up the next day, and do the same thing. Just as with any withdrawal, it must be handled each day. Don't think about how long you have to do it, don't think about the future. Literally, take it one day at a time.

"I will get through today."

Homer, when you can do this, you will know you can do anything, and you will know you will truly be OK one way or the other. And you will also realize that YOU are not HIS victim ~ HE is the big loser in all this. I know intellectually, you probably grasp that. But once you can detach from him, his actions seem small and petty and lost, not so much hurtful or vengeful or against you.

Does that make sense? It is something you have to do, though. Are you committed to only talking R during MC? Short, business-like emails only regarding children and finances.

Initially, your WH will feel much relief when you do this, the pulling away. Because he really thinks it is what he wants. My experience is, though, that his is not a well thought-out plan. He will swing from relief, and as you keep going in your direction of detachment on the pendulum, he will begin to swing to worry about what exactly you are doing. His relief could easily turn to fear, the fear of pushing you too far away where he can never get you back.

Give him what he thinks he wants, less Homer. Practically NO Homer. No needs met at ALL by Homer. This is the next step you need to take, IMO.

Spidey

Go get the Embracing Uncertainty book and also Dr. Dobson's When Love Must Be Tough. Every time you think about him and try to get a reply he can see you still want and need him. I honestly believe that the way out of this for you is to learn to let go. Let him REALLY feel Homer gone--emotionally and physically from him. Be happy and busy and interested in LIFE, not just in your M and your H.

No more emails or letters or phone calls. He is NOT ready right now. Give him space on the SF thing for now. I had the same experience with my FWH. This took a long time to get back on track, so be patient. First things first.

Get busy on yourself. Train yourself to stop the thoughts about him, what he is doing and has done "to" you and how it hurts you. This line of thinking takes you nowhere. Redirect to things that will move you along on YOUR journey.

I keep posting this because I know that it works. Make YOURSELF the most emotionally, spriritually, physically healthy person that you can be. For just about all of us, there is work to be done, so GET GOING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />