Okay, so don't ever go camping with me...because apparently at the slightest sign of a spark I immediately crowd in and effectively smother any chances of it actually growing into a fire, I've done it not once, but TWICE.

So, you'll be cold and hungry because I'll throw myself on the camp fire everytime you try to light it.

-Caren

Caren:

I posted just before your last post.

Were you asking me those questions about camping or were you talking to someone else?

I didn't get it.

Mimi-

My thought in asking him out was that he would decline and I could still go, and he would wonder what I was doing....that's really all it was.

I know that I tend to put the financial issues on the back burner, I'm not sure what this tendency is about, because I know that I should be focusing on this, and it seems irrational to EVERYONE that I'm not more upset about it. I assure you this is a lifelong pattern when it comes to finances, and not something that just developed (I know that doesn't make it any better, but it's not a result of my current sitch). I have been looking in the paper for a new apartment. I don't want to leave this area, as this is where my support network is, My mom can't help me emotionally because she's a robot, but she can help me occasionally with money and she can pick the kids up from school for me....all this for free.

It's going to be really really close to impossible to find an apartment I can afford, I'm going to probably take it from paying 75% of my income on rent to paying 50%, which is better, and yet still not good....and that's providing I can find something in that price range. I have visions of me living in a one bedroom apartment with 3 pretty big girls....(they're so long and lanky, and insist on LAYING everywhere instead of sitting).

Mimi, as far as what I said about not posting anymore, I perceive most negative things as an attack first, I take it personally, and then after I've thought about it I realize I was being hasty. I am a kick @ss now, ask questions later kinda girl....but I'm working on that. So forgive my knee jerk reactions.

-Caren

I'll be back a little later, my daughter will inevitably want to get on the computer when she gets home so I'll be back later.

-Caren

Caren,

It's interesting that you are now having to see something that happened years ago to you (your mom being an alcoholic)and how it still effects you now. You need some healing sweetie.

My husband and I have been having some problems and it's really taken it's toll on me, through the roughest time I also realized I had some past hurts that were making me even angrier. God will reveal to you what you can handle when you can handle it. I think this thing with your mom is something to look into because it will help you heal and become a better person.

It kinda pisses me off that the alcoholic thing even plays a part in how I am, she didn't ever get falling down drunk, but she drank probably 16 beers a day easy like 6ish in the afternoon and 8-10 at night. I don't recall feeling abandoned, but I fit right into that description with the exception of being afraid of Authority figures, I'm not scared of them....but I don't like them, I don't like to be told what to do, and I could absolutely NEVER have a job where I was the authority figure... would hate that.

I have always had a bad temper, but it didn't flare up like this before, I think this anger streak is situational (At least I hope it is). They don't even have any of those Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings anywhere near me, so I guess it's a moot point, but just knowing why sorta helps I guess. The issues I had in my marriage probably directly relate to it, my being so closed off, etc.

I have to dodge bombs my mother launches at me to this day...and she doesn't even drink anymore. Her idea of advice is "You could change how you feel if you wanted to...it's mind over matter" I told her they were keeping me longer in Day treatment and she said "Well, kid, you brought that on yourself, you shouldn't be running your mouth like you do" (Apparently talking to other people in group is running my mouth and I brought this on my side for ever being suicidal to begin with)I am also apparently "The weakest woman she knows" and "She has more friends than I do", isn't she the sweetest little thing? She's like 5'2" with rheumatoid arthritis and she's 70 years old....brave woman (She actually knows I would never touch her and that I would protect her...but that doesn't change that she's as mean as a snake.)so I guess I get to delve into *Mother Issues* tommorrow...isn't that grand?!?!

-Caren

<small>[ March 02, 2005, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Caren

I have never posted to you but have kept up with your story nearly every day. In fact I look for your posts so that I can see how your situation is developing.

I write today because I was very interested in your article on alcoholic parents. My father was an alcoholic and very verbally abusive, sometimes physically abusive as well. I totally related to that article you posted and am wondering how much of my recovery has been hampered by my childhood. I am 14 months past d-day and still have very "black" days. I think one of the biggest problems with children of alcoholics is that they become "people pleasers". I know I did that with my H. . .allowed him to do anything he wanted to do so long as he was happy. I am also co-dependant and actually feel that I can't manage in life without him. I am sure that is a load of rubbish and that if I had to I would manage. I am just so scared all the time. . .its that fear that keeps me in this place.

I wonder if some therapy on my early childhood would help. You mentioned a group on grown up children of alcoholics. I wonder if they have a group like that in South Africa. I live in South Africa.

I wish you well on your Plan B, and I must confess that I agree with the rest of the board who are advising you. Your H showed the most interest when you first confronted him with Plan B. I reckon that if your H thought he was going to lose you completely he would come running back. He doesn't want to lose you in his life. . .I think he is enjoying the drama of having two woman chasing him. Its time one of those woman stopped chasing him and he started feeling the pain of losing you and his family. I reckon that OW doesn't stand a chance if you do a good Plan B.

Enid

Enid-

Thanks for the post hon. Here is the website for that group. Adult Children Of Alcoholics They have a page where you can find meetings, and they have South Africa listed. They also have "Internet" listed under the countries, so if they don't have one close to you, you can choose an internet meeting.

-Caren

Mimi-

Sorry I was trying to be funny with the *camping* comment. I was just thinking that everytime I see a little spark of love returning with my WH I pounce on it, instead of giving it room to grow into a flame. Does that make more sense?

-Caren

Caren on the mother thing we all have our crosses. Not making light of yours by anymreans. Let me just breifly tell you a littel of mine. My mother did not drink at all just tea. She came by her meanness naturally she is 4'10" and a pit bull. I was told I was not pretty and she did not think anyone would ever love me. Poor child. I try all the time to fight those words. I changed history and am proud of me. I did not abuse nor hurt my children I did not beat them. I have tow very strong,handsome you men. However when I met my H I feel in love and you know what - I thought yeah and you said Who would every love you? Well someone does. Now look he cheated and those words are haunting me each day now. Welcome back MOM!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It kinda pisses me off that the alcoholic thing even plays a part in how I am </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Everything we do in life effects ourselves and those around us. I think when we realize when something has hurt us then the healing can begin.

My dad was an alcoholic/womanizer who wasn't there for his wife or children. guess what Enchanted did? She found 2 (exh and H) emotionally unavailable men, I didn't see the pattern in myself until recently and maybe that was because God was showing me it's time to heal and grow. My H at least willing to get counseling for it thank God!!!

Did you see the movie The Notebook yet?

I could be waaaaaaaaaaay off base but I think your anger is a wall of protection. My oldest daughter does this, her first reaction with many things is anger, she doesn't want to get hurt or let anyone in, do you think this is the case for yourself?

Everything happens for a reason and there are some great lessons to be learned in life. Take on the attitude of OK God what are you showing me now? There is a great song by Kirk Franklin and TD Jakes it's called 911 I'll be posting it on a different thread, read the lyrics.

I think you are also seeing when your WH shows a spark you jump before letting it get bigger. So how are you going to handle it differently? Do you think having someone to talk you through your withdrawls would help? I remember those times like it was yesterday. When my ex left my whole body ached but there were moments I thought I couldn't go on. That's when I would cry out to God and I began to grow. I began to realize who I was, what made me tick, what my needs were. I had neglected myself for way too long. I started taking the time for me and guess what? I like me, I had fun, I did things with friends and family, my wings started to spread out and I felt free for the first time in my life.

That is why Plan B is important. Just like any addiction there is withdrawls. You are addicted to wh (understandably)but you have got to LET GO and let HIS pain work on him.

You need to look in the mirror and see you can do this!!! Work on yourself so your life will be much happier with or without WH and also for your children

Realtor-

I don't think my mother being an alcoholic is an excuse, but it sort of explains things a little bit, here I thought I didn't have Mother issues. I don't want to have them. It's scary, actually that parents, mothers in particular have that much influence on their children.

We had one class on co-dependency, and there was a list of things that a child is born needing, and then next to that were a list of things the child does/could do to survive without those things (Emotional things), and then next to that were a list of things that the child now does/could do as an adult......so for instance if the child couldn't be *dependant* on their mother/caregiver, they become not "independant" but super anti-dependendant to the point where they feel they don't need anyone, they do everything for themselves. It's stuff like that.

It's pretty scary really, when you think about it....I mean I thought I was doing an okay job parenting, but there are things that I'm sure weren't 100% right, and knowing that could impact my kids as an adult messes me up. I have never been a drinker, My children aren't abused, they know I love them, and they know they're beautiful....but I'm sure I haven't done everything perfectly, especially lately I'm a little short with them since all this stuff is going on, I get emotionally overloaded and can't take on anything else.....and that's so UNFAIR to them.

-Caren

Enchanted:

We must have been posting at the same time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Did you see the movie The Notebook yet?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I actually have never heard of that movie.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I could be waaaaaaaaaaay off base but I think your anger is a wall of protection. My oldest daughter does this, her first reaction with many things is anger, she doesn't want to get hurt or let anyone in, do you think this is the case for yourself?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh I absolutely think that is what it is, I just don't know how to change that. I've got walls that rival any fortress, problem is the walls I've built so I won't get hurt have now become my prison, I never thought to protect myself from ME.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think you are also seeing when your WH shows a spark you jump before letting it get bigger. So how are you going to handle it differently? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am going to have to approach this cognitively, as I didn't realize this is what I was doing until yesterday......I though Oh sheesh, everytime he shows a little interest I'm practically calling the moving company and moving back in...what's my problem?!?! So I am going to have to stop and think (A relatively new concept for me as I tend to just *react*) *Okay Caren, he's responding to the thought of losing you, but he still hasn't moved forward......this is working....KEEP doing it* Because I am always looking for the quick fix I am prone to jump on any sign of success. So I have to think about what I'm doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to look in the mirror and see you can do this!!! Work on yourself so your life will be much happier with or without WH and also for your children </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this statement, but I don't like it. You're not the first one that's given me this pearl of wisdom, and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last......and I know rationally I wouldn't wither and die without my husband, but I really don't even want to think about living the rest of my life without him.....so this statement is always hard for me to swallow.

-Caren

Hi Caren,
I, like many others, have been following your story...And Yes, please please don't take out your H frustrations on your children.

You have told us that you've had a problem with your temper and anger that goes back much farther than your H's affair. (I admire you for your honesty with us here at MB)
You have also said the 'clutter' in your home drives your H crazy.

It has occured to me that your H's OW may be doing a PERFECT PLAN A....She may be the epitomy of a woman that is giving him kindess, gentleness, love, affection and her NEAT home may be a peaceful quiet haven for him to come home to, free from turmoil..He may be living in a peaceful fantasy world.

Caren, you have your work cut out for you to get your H back into your home (a peaceful clutter-free haven for him to come home to) and your marriage back into a loving relationship.
This may be a 'hard row to hoe'

What do you think?

Good Luck
Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CarenMc

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to look in the mirror and see you can do this!!! Work on yourself so your life will be much happier with or without WH and also for your children </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this statement, but I don't like it. You're not the first one that's given me this pearl of wisdom, and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last......and I know rationally I wouldn't wither and die without my husband, but I really don't even want to think about living the rest of my life without him.....so this statement is always hard for me to swallow.

-Caren [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Caren,
I COMPLETELY understand how you feel when you say this. I found out about my WHs affair the day he started seeing the OW. That very same day everyone in my family, and many friends made the 'you would be better off without him' statement. Usually I just acted like I didn't hear them.
As time goes on, I realize they may be right. ALTHOUGH even today when someone says that, it is very hard to hear. That is ok. We still hold out hope for the future with out spouse. I think the turning point is when you decide that you have hope for them to be your husband again, and to have a loving family, BUT until THEY decide that, you have hope for YOUR personal future.

Danielle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> think one of the biggest problems with children of alcoholics is that they become "people pleasers". I know I did that with my H. . .allowed him to do anything he wanted to do so long as he was happy. I am also co-dependant and actually feel that I can't manage in life without him </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I definitely am an ADULT CHILD OF AN ALCOHOLIC and this describes me/us to a T. That's what makes it so hard for US to do PLAN B. It has made me into a CONFLICT AVOIDER and on and on.

However, it doesn't change one thing about the A stuff. I told myself that PLAN B was what I had to do whether I wanted to or not, whether I felt OK or not. I just had to do it.

Listen to me carefully. I think this is important. I have been in therapy. I believe in therapy. I understand the AA and ACOA stuff well and have digested that literature. Out of all this stuff, MB has been the most helpful. WHY?

PLAN B IMPROVED MY SELF-ESTEEM!!!! That's going to be the key for you, Caren. Out of all this I think that you need to develop more confidence in yourself!!! My increased self-confidence has been key even in making me more attractive to my H. Through all of this, I stopped begging and pleading for him to love me. I began to expect respect from him. I learned that I could make it own my own. I gave my personal survival and priority over rescuing others. See where I am going with this?

I got right back up on the horse after I fell off and proceeded to TRY PLAN B AGAIN AND AGAIN.

I'm sorry. I no longer buy into the necessity of analyzing the past. "It is what it is." I grew up in an alcoholic home. Now I have to learn to go on. Today is a new day. I have to make the most of it!!

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 08:28 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I understand this statement, but I don't like it. You're not the first one that's given me this pearl of wisdom, and I'm pretty sure you won't be the last......and I know rationally I wouldn't wither and die without my husband, but I really don't even want to think about living the rest of my life without him.....so this statement is always hard for me to swallow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it's hard to swallow.I meant it more for you to see your strengths and your positives and grow. I couldn't even imagine life without my ex. I asked him one time how do I breath? it's always been S and E what am I without you? I met him when I was 11 yrs old and started dating him when I was 16. We were together 10 yrs

Same with my H now, I love him with every ounce I have in me, I don't want to live without me BUT I know I can if I had to.

I think you are going through a growth spurt and when we rebel against it it hurts more. Let go and God will show you what He's got in store for you....that was hard for me too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

((hugs to you))

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Enchantedlady ]</small>

Thanks everyone-

I agree with you Mimi, I don't think analyzing the past is gonna do a damn thing, but I never even realized that it affected me at all...it was a realization, and understanding that might help me move forward. I had never thought of myself as a people pleaser....I generally piss people off....but I did bend over backwards to avoid conflict and please my H......If I had known that the house being clean was really such an issue for him, I'm sure I would have done flips to change that immediately....I didn't understand....and my house was gross, I'm not gonna lie to ya, and you could eat off the stupid floor now, and guess what, he hasn't even seen it, and we're working on it being clean for a week now.....it sure is easier to keep clean when I just pick stuff up daily...lol.

It amazes me, I feel like a pretty intelligent woman, but little stupid stuff escapes me....maybe I'm book smart and not street smart.

As far as having a long row to hoe, I agree....her house probably is nice and serene the b*tch doesn't have any kids, I cannot compete with her in that department no matter how nice I am or how clean the house is, these girls are heathens..LOL So if he wants that kind of serenity, I won't have that for him for about 5 or 6 more years LOL!!!! (When the 13 year old turns 18) Then there will only be one child and she can't really fight with herself.

He doesn't live with OW, have I given you that impression. And there again...his house is probably very serene, and it's damn clean....again NO CHILDREN there.

Today my facilitator said to make a list of things that I like, my favorite color, the type of music I like etc. Because she keeps telling me I have to do stuff for me....and I don't know what to do. She said "Well what'd you like to do before?" I said "Ummmm I was 17 before I had children, and I have been defined by them or my husband ever since...so I have no clue what I like to do" I said "I cleaned my house" She said "Yeah, but that's not something for you....that's something WH wanted." I said "Okay.....I don't know what to do then." I said "I go and do these things that people tell me to do....but I'm thinking about my husband the entire time...it is FORCED, what should I do???? Fake it 'til I feel it????" So she said "Okay....next week I want you to get up every morning do your hair and your make up and dress like a girl" LMFAO....I do look pretty messed up when I go there........I'm like...yeah, I don't need to impress the crazy people. So anyway....I have to dress like a girl she said, I'm like OK...that's not difficult, I can do that....then make my list of things I like, I mean I can tell you my favorite food etc, but I can't tell you what I like to do, I have no idea, I have always just went with what the kids and WH wanted to do...it didn't matter much to me.....so this is all foreign territory for me.

So, maybe if I start writing down things that I like, and start trying a few things, maybe I'll find an interest..LOL Who the hell knows.

-Caren

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Okay so, tell me if this is a stupid idea or not. WH is going to be here Saturday after he gets off of work because I already told him he could come over and visit his son (My step-son) as I will have him for a visit, and his Aunt, who has custody doesn't feel comfortable letting him have him. Anyway, I digress. I am going to take my wedding ring off.....if he notices I'm gonna tell him I need to clean it. I previously asked him to spend the night Saturday night....Yes, I know I'm retarded. Anyway....I am going to VETO SF if he tries it, and he'll probably get hella p.o.ed because he KNOWS I have been turbo SF woman ever since this started, I've never shot him down not even ONE time. I plan on saying "I don't want to lead you on..." (Same bullcrap line he always gave me). I'm sure he'll go home P.O.ed and thinking that I have someone else waiting in the wings, and that's why I'm saying no SF. Then after the counselor appointment, I'll tell him that it's really best if I just don't talk to him, and tell him to refer to the Plan B letter I gave him before.

I am actually not all that sure that I should even have him going to the counselor (She wants to see us *together* I asked her about it today)...I don't know if him knowing how screwed up I am due to not being with me is the best plan I can think of....so I may veto this also.

Okay, I'm going to the store, I'll be back around 8-8:30.

Laters,

-Caren

Hey Caren,

I missed ya' girl!!! I love reading your threads, you are so honest here and SOOO REAL!! You see, that's what is really important in life, not serenity, but REAL stuff....serenity is nice for awhile. but oh so boring.

Caren. Your counselor is right, and that is what everyone is telling you here. FIND YOU. I'm the horsegirl. An insult when said by my H in a certain context, but nonetheless that is me. Oh, and right now I am the nutty goatgirl. Well, I'm always nutty and always have been but ah well.

Yes, I am a MOM first, but ME 2nd and then a wife .... I love my H, but I went thru several years of depression when I was in my early twenties and got some good, and some bad,counseling. And thru all that and single parenting of my DD, now 14, and school---I found ME!!! And I am okay. Yes I have needed anti-Ds here and there, depression runs rampid thru my Moms family!! But that is okay, I love LIFE, just not my relationship with my H right now. I have 6 horses, 3 dogs, 3 cats, a pygmy goat, 2 chickens and 2 guinea hens. My H helps by taking care of the turtle and 2 fish LOL...

So I am BUSY all the time and I like it. I just wish I had time to actually ride!

Oh and speaking of Mom's family, I love them all (from Alabama, 5 southern belles and 1 man), but my Mom is not an alcoholiic, jsut SUPER CRITICAL of guess who, ME. According to her, my H is really too good for me and when this all went down, she never called to ask how I was. But I did get a call from her 2 days after I kicked H out, to tell me that no matter what - it was all my fault!! That was a winner moment for me, and I bought it for awhile. Now I can only afford to pay for my half!!

Glad your back!!

jls

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: jlseagull ]</small>