Enough said by me today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Alrighty then.

I have been having sex with my WH this entire time. There always was tons of passion in our SF....I had sorta fallen into a slump with school and working full time, I was so damned tired I didn't really want to more than like 2 or 3 times a week.

I dunno, but if I do decide to have SF with him again I'm sure as hell not telling you guys...LOL

I do appreciate all your help and all your viewpoints......our differences make us who we are.

Yeah, I know I score right up there on the flake-o-meter Gray.

I'm just honest, just me....what you see is what you get, if that makes me flakey, I can live with that.

-Caren

Caren,

So where did you go? This is the longest that I havent seen you on here. I guess you may be tired of all the back and forth, trying to figure out what to do, huh?

Everyone here has their story, and in many cases...what worked or didnt work for them. The idea is to sit down and figure out what is going to work for Caren. And do it intellectually and spiritually...not emotionally.

If you could talk to Steve Harley today, he would tell you that you are a prime candidate for Plan B. Right now, the situation is good and presents itself to make the things happen that you need to happen in your life. I think he would also say after talking to you that you are emotionally ready for this move also. As emotionally ready as any of us can be.

But, where you havent been ready is the practical matters of Plan B. As I have said above, and others...you have not set up the firm boundaries that will be in place in Plan B, plans for maintaining those boundaries, plans for your future, etc. All outlined above and I am not going to repeat them.

So, doing Plan A while getting those things together is a good thing. But I do not want you to think that "going back" to Plan A is going to accomplish anything in regards to your husband, except hold him right where he is at until you have your Plan B in place. In this case, Plan Aing again will be manipulation of him for a short while as you get yourself together. While we never want to manipulate our spouses, in your case, it may be unavoidable for the short term.

You see, Plan A is not about to bring him home now. Why? Because he has seen you be tough, and back down. He has gone to the edge, and nothign happened. Thus, as you settle things down, hang out with him, be loving, have SF...he will see this as you agreeing with him that things can be as they are. And so, in order to avoid the pain of dealing with the OW, he is allowed to park his little butt in the bakery and feast on cake daily.

Oh, he will know that he needs to do something about this eventually. And he more than likely already knows that he is going to chose to come home. But no need to do that anytime soon, as long as you are back in Plan A.

Unless something else happens to him, I do not see him coming home anytime soon, of giving up playing both ends here. Not while in Plan A. I still maintain that Plan B is going to have to be the only way that you gain your life back...and shove your WH off that fence he is sitting on.

Now, with that said...

What is Caren going to do? Sit in Plan A, slowly give in and start to give him everything he wants and needs, meantime he continues to disrespect you, you continue to live in upheaval, your kids have no idea what the heck is going on? When they talked about the flake-o-meter, they werent talking about you here. They are talking about what your husband sees. He sees a woman that does not mean what she says. He has little to know respect for you...that is obvious. And he loses respect for your everytime you let him blow thru your boundaries.

Dr. Hobson in "Love Must Be Tough" said the basic problem in marital discord is a lack of respect. He also goes on to say that a spouse that continually begs or gives in to a WS, is not building a relationship...but building disrespect in the mind of that WS. Love does not last long without respect. And right now, your husband does not respect you. If he did, he would have never gotten into an affair. And with your constant back-and-forth, he has lost even more respect for you.

Now that I have sufficiently bludgeoned you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I want you to know that you can regain his respect for you. You have done some great things in your Plan A that will go well for regaining respect when he comes home. You said domestic support was number 2. Well, you have cooked him meals and taken them to his work, your house is in order. These are the things he has seen over the past two months. These are the things that have made him pull back from "Caren, it is never going to happen" to "Caren, let's have phone sex and can I come over?" It isnt the great sex, although that is a motivating thing for us males <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . It has been the things he has seen that has garnered respect for you. Your getting a handle o nthe chaos in your house (mess). You standing up for yourself, and keeping things running in his absence. And you beginning to grow a spine by putting up boundaries has forced him to look at you and see a woman that is beginning to stand on her own two feet. Sure, you backed down. But deep down, I think he sees the writing on the wall. Caren is beginning to stand up and demand respect.

In going back to Plan A, you will temporarily hurt that...but somewhat unavoidable because you dont have your Plan B set yet. The faster you get Plan B ready, the better because once you go to an good Plan B...your husband has no choice but to have respect for you. He may be pissed off. He may be angry. But he will respect you.

Why do you think he pushed back so hard against you the first two times? Because he wanted to test if this Caren was true. Is this the woman I married, the one that I fell in love with. Most men do not want a doormat for a wife. Many women read the part of being submissive and think that means being a doormat, a slave of sorts. Nothing could be further from the truth. We want a partner...not a someone beneath us or over top of us. We dont want an equal. Now I know this now must not make sense to you, but listen to me a second. Women and men are not equal. Sure, under the law we are. But in God's eyes, and in a practical matter, we are not equal. We are different. Thus when I say we want a partner, it means for our wife to bring something to the table that we dont have. Some things are abvious, like sex and having babies. But there are also other less obvious things. Men tend to be more rational, women more emotional. I know that is a broad swipe of the brush and we can always find exceptions. But as the whole, this is true. Now being rational is not more important or better than being emotional. If we were all just rational, we would be robots. And if we were all just emotional...well, that would be a mess. While I have emotions, for the most part, my world is ruled by rationality. While good in some cases, it isnt everything...and I miss out on what life can offer. That is why God said I needed somebody else. I needed my wife to bring something to the table that I didnt have. She has been able to complete me, and change me in ways, that were never possible on my own.

As has been said many times, if a husband and wife were equal and the same, one of them would be unneccessary.

Now why have I rambled on like this? Because Caren, in order to be what your husband needs, you must first be the Caren that you were born to be. I am willing to bet that the main reason that your husband fell for the OW is that he respected her, in a time when his respect for you was faltering. So many BSs come on here and talk about the OP. They talk about how the OP is almost always not like the BS. Why is that? Because at that time, the WS associated a person that is like the BS is someone undeserving of respect. Thus they seek out someone almost opposite of the BS.

Caren, you have made GREAT strides in turning this all around in your life. And believe me...your husband has noticed!! That is why he is hanging around. He wants to see what happenes next. Dont disappoint him by sliding back into the old Caren. Become who you were meant to be. Submissiveness and boundaries arent opposites. I have written before here on the roles of husbands and wives. And a wife who has healthy boundaries, who demands a Godly marriage and demands to be treated as such, is being submissive. But at the same time, we look at our wife who is standing up and being who God created her to be, and see someone that we can respect...and that makes you even more attractive and sexy!!

We guys have a weird way about us. We want the other guys around us to look at our wives and see that we really have landed the big one (and I am not talking about waist measurements or bra sizes!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ). We love to know that everyone around us finds our wife beautiful, intelligent, graceful...and worthy of respect. When we see that reflected in other's eyes...well, suffice it to say, we are hooked!!

If you could write a book, a fairytale maybe. What kind of guy would you want? Think about that for a minute. Now, I know no guy can live up to fairytale status, but work with me a second. Do you see him? What is he like? Dont answer those questions here, because they arent important. What is important is the next question. What kind of woman do you think that guy deserves? Do you see her? What is she like?

Once you can see her...then be her!! Be the woman and wife that your husband deserves.

You see, I had to come to that point in all of this. I had to realize that no matter what my wife does, good or bad...she is my wife. And with that position, with that title...she deserves certain treatment...and she deserves me to be a certain way. Why? Because MY WIFE, whomever that would have been, deserves a certain kind of guy. I wouldnt marry a woman that deserved less. So, if she deserves it...not because of who she is or what she has done...but by the sheer fact that she is my wife...then how the heck can I stand back and not be that guy?

My wife may leave me...that is always a possibility. But until she is no longer my wife, I will continue to try to be the husband that my wife deserves. Not that Mrs. Mortarman deserves, because then we get into "well, she doesnt deserve my SF, or my forgiveness, etc. because of what she has done." She deserves Mortarman at his best because of who I am and because she is my wife.

This is a picture of Christ. Christ loves me, not because of who I am or what I bring to the table. He loves me, and is who He is...because of who He is!!

I hope that I have been clear here. The whole basis to all of this is that you need to be the woman worthy of respect by the guy that you picture as your husband...as that perfect guy in that story you would write. Then, it doesnt matter what he does or who he is...you will be who you are and giving what the husband of Caren deserves. And that, my dear...is submissiveness. That is being a Godly woman. And that is a woman that ANY man would be forced to respect!

Anyway, still sitting here ready to help. I do think it is time for Plan B. As soon as you get things laid in place. It wouldnt take you long. But, the time until Plan B starts is ENTIRELY up to you.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM - that post deserves to be preserved in the MB archives. Thank you.

And, yes, Caren, I AGREE WITH HIM - one thing that struck me - the part about us guys wanting the others to see we landed the 'big one' - maybe that's an ego thing, some sort of competition between us, but the sensation that you can be seen with the best of the best fills our make hearts with pride - and love for our wives...and thanks to the God who made that woman so well....

David

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

I'm here.....just wasn't feeling too good. Thank you Mortar, that was a very informative post, and I'm trying to be that woman....and I think he sees it. When I talked to him today and told him I had a Doctor's appt., he said "What for?" I said "Oh, they put me on Wellbutrin a few weeks ago, and they want to make sure it's working" He said "Is it?" I said "I think so, I feel much better" He said "It must be working, you've been acting different......." I said "Yep I feel much better".

I am supposed to go with my friend tonight and look at a friend of her's computer. I was talking to WH about it, he said "Where are you going?" I told him, then he said "Well who is this person?" I said "I don't know him, it's just one of Casey's friends" (He came over to take a shower, something is wrong with his plumbing again) He said "So you're going to meet a guy?!?!"
As he jumps to his feet like he'd been electrocuted. I said "Ummmm I'm going to look at his computer." He said "Oh, that's fine...I'm not jealous" and then he walked away and went to take his shower. So I came out into the kitchen and sat down and was messing around on the computer, and after his shower he came into the kitchen and said "I don't want you to think I'm jealous about you going there" I said "Okay" He said "Well because I'm not" I said "That's good, there's no reason to be." Just then someone signed onto Yahoo messenger...I do not use Yahoo messenger, my daughter must have left it on....he was sitting beside me in a chair because I wanted him to take that Briggs Myers test. I was starting to read the question, I saw the little thing pop up to say someone signed on, but I didn't pay any attention to it and he said "XXXXX?? WHO'S THAT?" I said "I have no idea, Jeni must have left the messenger on" He said "Oh..."

So I did give him the test and I'll share the results at the end of this post, maybe someone could tell me what, if anything, they mean.

I am a: ISFP
Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving

and he is a:
ESFJ
Extroverted Sensing Feeling Judging

So someone care to decipher that for me?

-Caren

Caren,

Dont know too much about that (except that I am an ENTJ) so maybe others can help with that.

On his not being jealous...he is jealous. And very defensive too. WSs believe that we can just as easily do what they have done. So when faced with that sort of situation, they think "What would I do in this situation?" And what they would do is leave their spouse and hook-up with someone new. So, he believes you would do that also. And is evidenced by his bahavior and what he said, he does not want that. Interesting to note, even though we are not playing games here, right?

So, what is your plan here? Because you are the only one that has a possibility of having a plan. He is just wandering aimlessly around.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I am a: ISFP
Introverted Sensing Feeling Perceiving

and he is a:
ESFJ
Extroverted Sensing Feeling Judging

So someone care to decipher that for me?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey Caren!

This should help...

http://typelogic.com/

Thank you tqt.

Mortar, I don't know I haven't made the plan yet. I have a few things on the fire...I have to find an IC, because they're releasing me from group, which also means I will be going back to work, and I've lost 20 lbs, so my scrubs don't fit anymore, gotta buy new scrubs (You'd think scrubs would be sorta one size...but they look like clown pants on me..and they're a Medium). I'm not really stressed out, but I absolutely HATE having things to do, it drives me mental.

No, we aren't playing games, but I'm horrible at the whole secrets thing, therefore I told him, so if I then had a story to tell him about what happened I would be able to tell him and not *hide* that it was a guy. (The only guy I'm interested in is my husband)

I know I've gotta go to Plan B, I just don't get how he can spend all this time with me....what the hell is the OW thinking?(Not that I give a *@($&#(*) My WH has ZERO duality, when he was hot and heavy with OW he couldn't be nice around me....I have the sneaking suspicion that is true vice versa.

I'm having technical difficulties with who is going to be my intermediary....My sister is just not reliable, I honestly don't know who else to ask, I don't know who on earth could be impartial.

*sigh*

-Caren

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Okay, a couple of things.

First, I understand the scrubs deal. My wife is an RN in a local emergency room. She has a bunch of scrubs, of varying sizes and colors. I have been told by her that is because she isnt the same size during the month. That especially when that "special" time of the month comes, she cant wear her normal scrubs. So, get your scrubs together. You should see this as a good thing. Things are moving forward. All good!!

Second, why your husband is spending so much time with you? Dont know for sure. You could be right. That thing with the OW could be over, even if not OFFICIALLY over. Doesnt mean a thing for you though. Until he has sent NC letter and ended everythign officially, that might as well be having sex three times a day. but my gut feeling is that is he is that hot and heavy over you, he is probably not getting any there. Poor guy!!

Third, On your Plan B. Dont worry so much about the intermediary. I didnt have one. I told my wife that she was to leave emails or voicemails on things dealing with the kids. that I would NEVER answer the phone with a call from her...and if I did and she was o nthe line, I would IMMEDIATELY hang up. She could leave a message, I would hear it...and call her back. I told her if she answered, I would immediately hang up. That I would just call to leave a message back.

Now, why did I do this? Essentially, we were having contact. Because first, I used voicemail essentially as my mediator. Second, because we had to interact concerning the kids. But what it did do was keep the conversation fro mdigressing to relationship talk or anything else not directly related to the kids.

Sure, at first, she called this set-up "childish." "Cant we just be adults here?" I wanted to say "Sure, I can...but obviously you cant." But that would probably have been an LB!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She would call and leave extended messages about what she was doing, or she wished I would call her back and talk to her. One night she called and left messages like 8 times, most of the times saying nothing. One time she called, just to talk about the beautiful sunrise she was seeing as she went to work. And then said, "Oh well, just wanted to talk to you...but you arent talking to me." She sounded very lonely in that conversation.

Now, it did hurt a little to hear those. And in order to get to the kid related stuff, I kinda had to listen. But on her end, all she got from me is "It is okay to pick the kids up at 5:30pm. I will have them ready and waiting. I will send them out as sonn as you pull up. I will pick them up Sunday afternoon at 5pm. Oh, by the way, daughter has a project she is working on. Sending her stuff with her. Please make sure she completes it. It is due Monday." Stuff like that.

Now, she got NO relationship talk, no personal interaction. All the things that would help feed her addiction and feed the fog. 5 weeks later, she was in my house wanting to talk, wanting to come home.

So, the mediator is not essential. but some way laid out in PBL has to be set so you will nto interact with him personally. Find what works for you. Email, voicemail, second line (as I have said before, I know Verizon has a plan that gives you a VIRTUAL second line with a distinctive ring...for roughly the same price of traditional one line service. So it shouldnt cost you anymore to have two lines. Then you can have hubby call second line in order to talk to daughter. And she will know it is for her because the ring is different).

On your daughter, you will have to make it exceptionally clear that you will not allow daughter to be used as a go-between. That you want NC with him until affair is over and PBL is met. But, if he tries to use daughter, you will have no coice but to seek legal help, because that is abusing your daughter. Then sit your daughter down and say "I will not be answering the phone when your father asks you to hand me the phone. I have told him that he is not to ask you to do that. If he does, you will tell your Dad that you need to get off the phone, that you will talk to him later...and then hang up."

Boundaries are boundaries, Caren. of course, he will try to blow thru them at first. And because you cracked before, he will take a little while longer to get it, because he will think you will just crumble again.

Anyway, hope that helps. Find the best way to set this up and let's get you movign forward. Going back to work, out of group, etc are all good things. One more step toward your new life.

In His arms.

Okay found an IC, and because my *problems* are based on the fact that I'm having marital difficulties, It will be MC too.

Yep! I know things are coming together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Mortar, I have been praising the lord all over the place!!!! He is great, and I can finally, actually *feel* it inside, and it's wonderful.

-Caren

Great!! Stay there.

Remember, Peter could walk on water, as long as he kept his eyes on Jesus.

You can too!

In His arms.

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Mortar-

If this is too personal of a question, just tell me, but I wondered how old you are......I'm just nosey LOL But I always wonder about it.

-Caren

No problem. Remember, I am a guy...dont have those pesky problems about worrying about asking about my age or weight, like you gals!!

I am 41. Dont look it though. Most people confuse me with being about 32 or 33.

In His arms.

Mortar-

You are only 4 years older than me. You are wise beyond your years. I had a feeling that was the case.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Caren

I am with Mortarman as far as not using a mediator. Only TM and Voice mail.

It does hurts when they sound lonely, or when they want to act up as smarta$$es, or use emotional trips on us.

Then I remind myself that life is about choices and he is where he is because of his choices and I am were I am out of my own choice (plan B) so I get strenght from reminding myself that and move on with my day.

And I do not think you suck at Plan B. It is difficult and some of us take a few tries to get going. I lost count of my attempts but you know I am there again plan B'ing. You can do it to . It just takes some mental preparation and planning. (and a lot of venting) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care, good luck. Love

Caren,
Sounds like things are going pretty well considering! Follow Mortarman's advice to the letter and I think things will begin to swing your way.

Meanwhile, please stop trying to guess what WH's attention is about etc., etc. Take care of working on you and your life. You are doing well--I had many, many missteps in Plan B and am now doing well in recovery with H. You CAN do it!

Thank you everyone, I appreciate all your concern!

Well, it's about 7:15 a.m. here and I've got to get the rug rats up for school.........will post more later.

-Caren

Where are you girl? No update today?

In His arms.

caren, You are very angry as you should be. Use it. Anger can be turned into power or it can continue to be self-abuse. There is always a way. The legal aide thing sounds good. Also moving to a cheaper place. Is there any rent assistance to be had? Family?
I was divorced in 1990. I got little child support when I got it. I lived with my sister for 2 months, on welfare for 2 more, then got 3 jobs. I struggled and found ways to make ends meet in any way I could. I volunteered at the food shelf and they gave me two bags of groceries a month. I got food from a church. Five years ago I started my own business and make $100,000 a year. I am married again and my husband is my business partner, but I did and still do the work. I made this busness, Me, only me. I am strong and confident and don't need a man to help me. It was hard and long and my kids suffered sometimes, but they are now strong, independent women.
You can do it too!!!!!! Just calm down and think. Use that energy in a possitive way. You go girl!!!!
M

I'm too mentally exhausted to post, today was my last day of group.....so I'm on my own now. I start seeing an IC Monday.

I don't know when I'll get everything straight for Plan B...I have to get this apt **** figured out post haste, but I have to put 99 dollars down......which I don't have right this minute...it's refundable if I don't pass their credit check. I hope that they will accept me, I told them that my credit is rocked, but my rental history (aside from where I live now ... and he hasn't actually filed yet) is excellent, I lived in my last house 6 years and was never even late on the rent, and my ex-landlord is going to write a reference letter for me stating that.

So I've really gotta worry about that stuff right now and put any plan on the back burner.

-Caren

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>