Spidey, thanks for that term. I love it. Well, actually, I hate it, but it describes very well the way I'm feeling.

I think that yes, we are kindred spirits in a sense. Not only the promiscuous teen years, but also I slay spiders.

Yes, I was promiscuous during my teens. Excessively so. And to tell the truth, I still am. Over the time that Dylan and I were not together, I shared my bed with 4 different women. 2 I dated and 2 were ONS. This is one of the issues she keeps bringing up. That kind of bugs me because as much as she has a right to not view sex the same way, well, she made me single and I think at that point gave up the right to pass judgement on what I do with my own body. She knows I can be faithful in a committed relationship and over the past few months I think I've proven that I can restrain myself even if I'm not.

In my strange hotmail account thread ,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to say, that when HE left me for the OW/FBF, I was crushed. He had PROMISED me he would never leave me like everyone else had. BUT, he did. He lost his way, and I got hurt in the process. That is the way I choose to look at it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, we are a bit different here. OP was our room-mate and I was the one who left after Dylan said outright that she didn't think she could or would stop having her affair. But the thing is that I trusted her so completely. My heart was in her hands with no barriers, no protection and still, I can remember the look in her eyes. The look that said, "I'm hurting you so bad, and I'm so aware of it but tough luck for you buddy, cause I'm not going to stop." That look haunts me to this day.

I can't remember her ever promising me that she wouldn't leave me like everyone else. I guess I kinda just trusted that that was the case. (another point towards supporting the idiot theory)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, Dylan is living with you, as friends only, for the sake of your child. Is that the short version? She has her life on the side (with or without OM? Do you know?), and you continue to pine after the relationship YOU want with her? But she has made clear for several years that she DOESN'T want with you?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kinda. We're living together, separate bedrooms. We are intimate occaisionally, but not going all the way. Usually it's a case of me 'pleasing' her and hoping like he!! that it will be reciprocated. OP was an OW, btw, and to my knowledge, they are no longer in contact except occaisionally to discuss business (OP still lives in the house that we rented and that Dylan still holds the lease to and where all of our possessions are still stored). I do not believe that the affair is still going on.

Dylan has made it very clear that she does not actively want to salvage this family. I think that she's waiting for me to 'prove' something, but I don't really know exactly what it is.

She consistently says that she doesn't know what she wants. She is really and truly the ultimate fence sitter and I firmly believe that this situation could continue indefinitely and she would have no complaints.

Her disinterest in having SF with me has been a huge issue for about 7 years now. I don't blame her for this as I appreciate that I haven't always met her ENs. Mostly because I don't know how to. I spend a lot of time chasing my tail, I think.

Her stated desire to NOT be in a marriage is relationship with me is roughly a year old now. Her actions have made it clear that she's felt strongly about this for some time longer. I'd estimate a few months before the affair, but very seriously compounded by the affair itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But ultimately, of course, all of these are YOUR decisions, with questions that only YOU truly have the answers to.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, but I make my decisions based on the facts that revolve around the decision. And there are many things that I don't have the answers to, many things I just don't understand. Like what the heck does she want from me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you a hopeless romantic, or are you beating a dead horse? You are not the first, nor the last, to feel "stuck" in that gray area. I DO know that it is OK to hang out in that area for a while, until you feel sure one way or the other. And just because it doesn't "feel good" to be there, doesn't necessarily mean it is a "bad place" to be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yah, for a while... but how long? Weeks? Months? Years? I'm sure of one thing, and all the experiences I've been through serve only to reinforce the fact that I love this woman and want her to be my wife and I want to be her husband. I want to FEEL loved and cared for by her. Of this I am absolutely sure.

I definitly think that this is a 'bad place' to be. Especially considering the other things that are happening in my life right now. To be honest, I feel like I'm a completely broken man. I'm losing interest in just about everything. I feel paralyzed, empty, hopeless, clueless, useless...

When I had her by my side, even though things weren't perfect, I really felt ok. Life throws curves, but I really felt like I could handle anything and get through it. No matter how bad things ever got, I still had her and...

Mostly now I just wish that I was dead. I keep breathing solely because there's nothing else to do. The pain and hopelessness has me completely paralyzed emotionally and physically too... I honestly think that there was a clerical error in heaven and they took the wrong brother.

Thank goodness for the ADs, cause I shudder to think of how I'd be feeling without them.

dewt

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

Oh dewt. You are in a dark place, indeed. You have had to deal with a lot. Now, I am not going to coddle you, and I don't think you expect that. I see some definate red-flags with your thinking, and I am going to call a few of them out.

Number one I saw is: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she made me single </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOBODY can MAKE you do ANYTHING. Marriage is in your HEART, not the person laying next to you physically. During my separation, one of my big realizations, is that my H couldn't "make me single." I married him for my life. Only I could choose when that was over for me. Divorce is a paper, a word. It lost all its power over me.

The actions you chose were reprisal, revenge, hurting her back. BUT, in all actuality, you hurt yourself more than you even could have hurt Dylan.

The only way to come to terms with your actions, is to recognize them for what they are.

dewt, my H had my heart unguarded, unprotected as well. I have no father, no siblings, my mother has 100% dimentia and lives in a nursing home ~ has for about 10 years. I had invested more in my H than I can even tell you, more than there are words to explain. Probably, I had invested in HIM, more than I had even invested in ME. A pretty sorry state to be in, I tell you.

I still remember the night my H told me he was leaving me to persue a R with OW. We were in the laundry room. He had just gotten back from talking with his mom, and I was so confident she would encourage him to stay with me and the boys. He told her of the PA that night, didn't tell me until the next morning in the ER.

But, he told her the same WS sob-story we hear all the time at MB (never loved me, wasn't happy, married too young, blah blah blah) and his mother told him to do what made him happy.

Anyway, I dropped to my knees, and I BEGGED him to not leave me. I said, "What about the promises you made? We made? The commitments? M is forever, we agreed on that!"

And he just looked at me, like I was a repulsive lepper, and said, "Well, I felt that way then, and I feel this way now."

He had totally shut me out. I felt cut off from my source of life, light, everything good in the world. I literally thought I would die.

I didn't. That was surprise number 1. Surprise number 2 came later, when I realized I can make MYSELF happy, that I don't need anyone in my life except ME. Seems like an easy concept, but I am amazed how many people don't truly get it.

I don't think you get it. It really is fine that you used to think you could do anything in life with Dylan by your side. NOW, you need to begin to realize that you can do anything in life, no matter if you are M'd or single, having SF or no SF.

YOU need to learn how to refill your own fuel tank, dewt. You are getting dangerously low, and the power to turn it all around is within YOU.

Are you open to that possibility?

Spidey

Couldn't you have thrown in just a little coddling?

Ah, I guess not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I kinda do 'get it'. Kinda.

I know what you are saying... and that's where the emotionally damaged part of me makes this so difficult. So much of how I view myself is impacted by how others treat me, and even though there's a big part inside me that realizes my own self worth... well, there's a battle going on there and while I can conciously control MANY of my emotions quite effectively, this issue seems to be far enough below the surface that it's getting the best of me.

It's insidious. The more time I spend introspecting and understanding myself, the better I get at confusing myself. It's like I'm keeping up with me in the great race. Problem is, we're running in the wrong direction.

I called the local health services and have made an appointment with a counsellor. This is way beyond my ability to just 'choose' differently.

And I gotta say, that the 5 years I spent as a door to door salesman taught me, among other things, to keep going when you're discouraged, to be happy and positive even when you're being flogged, and to never ever give up. It made me VERY strong, emotionally, in many ways, but like I said, this is all just too much for me. Dylan is a crucial part of it, but only a part.

Please know that I still have no intention of 'giving up'. As hopeless and dark as my writings may be (and I'm making big efforts to not be too dramatic) and all that, I will keep hanging in there, because it's the only thing I really know how to do.

It's just so...

ugh...

I dunno...

How does a man, who is comatose and mangled from being run-over by a line of bull-dozers, decide to take control of the situation, suture up his wounds and go on to have a happy life?

I want to have faith in myself. I need to.

My W obviously doesn't.

My idiot boss obviously doesn't.

My Mom and my Brother did, but it's not like I can call them for support when I need the feeling unconditional love and support.

My Dad is quite possibly worse off than me.

I'm just sitting her kind of stunned and hurting and the Dylan thing is really no different than yesterday, or the week before that, or the month before that...

And I do Love her and am honestly happier with her, even without SF or the Love that I want so bad, than I would be if we went our separate ways. I like seeing her everyday and sharing our time together.

Ok... now I'm rambling.

Off to the city to pick her up at the Bus Depot as her ride back home fell through.

TTFN,

dewt.

dewt, I was never a door-to-door salesman, but my life lessons also taught me to keep going, keep moving, even when there seemed to be no point. I believe you are in a better position than you think you are. You have a survivor's instincts, and that will serve you when you need to keep moving the very most.

How to tackle this HUGE task ahead of you, you ask? In small chunks. I am so excited to hear you made an appointment with a counselor. What a great way to find things to post about! "Guess what I learned in IC today?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You know what else all my life experience has taught me? That once I work through an issue to the other side, it all seems so obvious! It's almost humiliating. I always wonder, "Why can't I see that from the other side? To speed up my journey?"

But it just doesn't work that way. If you keep seeking your truth, dewt, you will find it. That is the nature of the universe.

You also answered my next question ~ Do you really think living with Dylan is enough, or is it destructive?

I think you are in a place now that you feel your limited contact with her is better than no contact. However, you two have blurred the lines between friends and lovers, making it very hard to "define" your relationship.

My opinion is that you should work to define, work to have clear boundaries about your relationship. One of the reasons people feel comfortable to fence-sit forever is because their needs are being met "enough" that they don't have to put out more effort. And allowing someone to fence-sit is not good for them, because it doesn't force them out of their comfort zone, it doesn't force them to grow. It prolongs an unhealthy situation.

Do you know how you could acheive that?

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong> I believe you are in a better position than you think you are. You have a survivor's instincts, and that will serve you when you need to keep moving the very most.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm. Ya, like nowhere to go but up.

Ok, morbid joke aside, I hope you are right. Not about me having survivors instincts... that I know you are right about... only I call it stubborness. I hope you are right about me being in a better position than I think I am.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>How to tackle this HUGE task ahead of you, you ask? In small chunks. I am so excited to hear you made an appointment with a counselor. What a great way to find things to post about! "Guess what I learned in IC today?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL... well, I'm hoping that this person will help give me actual tools to start effecting some significant change in my life. The last think I need to do is wax on about how my father abandoned me... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Sorry to sound cynical, but I've been through plenty of IC and ended up with a great understanding of why I am the way I am. What I really need is a fricken clue on how to do something about it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>If you keep seeking your truth, dewt, you will find it. That is the nature of the universe.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Er... which truth are we talking about here, again? The truth about Dewt, or the truth about Dylan? Or the truth about Dewt and Dylan? I'm getting confused...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>You also answered my next question ~ Do you really think living with Dylan is enough, or is it destructive? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Both. And I'm not sure what to do about it except for to hold on and keep trying to improve myself and hope that in doing so I become attractive to her. That was kinda the plan... not sure how well it's going, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>I think you are in a place now that you feel your limited contact with her is better than no contact. However, you two have blurred the lines between friends and lovers, making it very hard to "define" your relationship.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. And I have a problem with that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>My opinion is that you should work to define, work to have clear boundaries about your relationship.[qb]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and not just that, but where it's going too. This is not a task that I'm capable of tackling on my own though. I mean I could very easily unilaterally set up some boundries and then stick to them, but my ultimate concern is saving my family and I don't know if I'm willing to sacrifice that for the sake of my boundries...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
[QB]One of the reasons people feel comfortable to fence-sit forever is because their needs are being met "enough" that they don't have to put out more effort. And allowing someone to fence-sit is not good for them, because it doesn't force them out of their comfort zone, it doesn't force them to grow. It prolongs an unhealthy situation.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And in this particular case, the fence sitting has been going on for quite some time and I'm concerned that unhealthy situation is taking a very serious toll on me (and it can't be a bed of roses for her either).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer said:
<strong>Do you know how you could acheive that?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, right now, I see two choices...

1) Be patient. Try to keep it together and overcome the emotional... uh... challenges this is presenting me and keep working on me until she eventually comes around. I'll continue on ADs, continue to seek counselling and try not to go into withdrawal. I will continue to try to understand and meet her ENs and hope that I one day get it right. I will continue to stay 'married' in my head and act accordingly. When I get discouraged, I'll not dump it on her and come post here instead. Eventually my post count will be high enough and I will buy out the Harleys and take over here at MB. There will be lots of advertising and service charges and I will retire to a beach somewhere in the mediteranean and live a pleasant, if sexless life. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

or

2) Cut my losses. Give Dylan yet another ultimatum and deal with her in-evitable answer. Dylan is the type where if you tell her to get off the fence, she will be 100% sure to get off on the other side. I'm not sure she even has control of this. A year ago, this instinct helped over-ride her parental instincts. And let me tell you, this woman is one dedicated Mother so this is a significant force.

Option #1 looks waaaay more attractive, despite the fact that I like Canada more than the tropics.

Blabbering again...

ttfn,

J

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

I think for many people, ultimatums work that way. I know I am waaay more inclined to do something, if I think it is MY decision/choice, than if someone tells me to do it. Even if it is a good idea ~ I think it is human nature, natural defensiveness.

My H and I were talking today about how realizing WHAT your issues are, is just part of overcoming them. Sounds like you recognize them, you now need tools to implement to overcome them.

This time in IC, now that the issues have been explored and identified, you can work on making some tools for you to use.

See, you are already halfway there!

dewt, you can only find YOUR truth. Dylan has her own to find, and you two create your own together. You will find your truth. What that means to me is, your core, your values, YOURSELF.

Not what others think of you, feel about you ~ How YOU think and feel about YOU.

Before my H's A, I cannot tell you how much time and energy I spent doing things for the sole purpose of ~ influencing how/what people thought about me. People I barely even knew! Craziness. Not until H's A did I realize how much I DON'T care what practical strangers think of me. I care what my close friends and family think of me, because that is the best reflection of what I feel/think of me.

Hang in there. You are right where you need to be.

Spidey

Hopeless Romantic. Dewt, it's not over till it's over. I pick choice #1: Patience. I'm not insensitive to the lack of SF problem but would urge you to continue. I asked you once if you knew how bad you had hurt Dylan and you told me you had. She also knows how bad she is hurting you and I don't think she enjoys it. I'm with Spidey regarding taking care of yourself first and let Dylan come around at her own pace. If she sees you continuing to improve yourself maybe it will push her off the fence somewhat.

The one thing to keep in mind is that Dylan sees everything that is going on and makes note of it. She may not acknowledge it right now but it surely registers. So it is your responsibility to do all the right things as both father and husband. I don't suggest this can be done indefinitely but be sure to give it your all. Blue skies may be just around the corner.

WOE

Thanks folks. I'm beyond any coherent reply, so I'm gonna sign off for the night, but I really want you to know how much I appreciate your comments.

John

Ok, I'm back... have a few minutes before going skiing with young'un. I'd sure be fun if Mom was into it... sigh...

anyway...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong>My H and I were talking today about how realizing WHAT your issues are, is just part of overcoming them. Sounds like you recognize them, you now need tools to implement to overcome them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mostly I think I do recognize them. Not only have I been through tons of IC, but I am by nature a very introspective person. I do need tools though, because sometimes it seems that the better I get to know myself, the better I get at fogging myself...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer:
<strong>dewt, you can only find YOUR truth. Dylan has her own to find, and you two create your own together. You will find your truth. What that means to me is, your core, your values, YOURSELF.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This I have. I truly do. My core?... that is there, and it is mine and I know it. Dylan knows it too, and I believe that is why she is still here at all... but you must understand that my Love for Dylan is a big part of that core. And this has nothing to do with her, really... this is me.

What I really need is to find a way to integrate this core of mine into the world around me in a more successful way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer:
<strong>Not what others think of you, feel about you ~ How YOU think and feel about YOU.

Before my H's A, I cannot tell you how much time and energy I spent doing things for the sole purpose of ~ influencing how/what people thought about me. People I barely even knew! Craziness. Not until H's A did I realize how much I DON'T care what practical strangers think of me. I care what my close friends and family think of me, because that is the best reflection of what I feel/think of me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a very complex issue. I care deeply about what others think of me, with rare exceptions. Each in his/her own way, though. I want my boss to consider me an excellent and loyal employee. I want my kids to think I'm a loving Father. I want my wife to think I'm irresistible.

These things are danm important to me. Even though I still love my own self, these things are still profoundly important to me and help define how I view myself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider Slayer:
<strong>Hang in there. You are right where you need to be.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I'm not sure that I'm right where I need to be. Not by a really really really long shot. However, I will hang in there, because any other alternative would not be holding true to what my core self believes is right and true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by walkingoneggs:
<strong> Hopeless Romantic. Dewt, it's not over till it's over. I pick choice #1: Patience. I'm not insensitive to the lack of SF problem but would urge you to continue.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya, hopeless romantic indeed. What's that song?... "I will go down with this ship..." Well so be it. I will continue.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">walkingoneggs:
<strong>If she sees you continuing to improve yourself maybe it will push her off the fence somewhat.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have very serious doubts about how much influence I actually have over the fence sitting... I know I can blow it pretty easily if I'm not careful. Ultimately the decision for her is going to come from her. If she has the same love for me that I have for her, and comes to realize it and follow that path, she will do it on her own.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">walkingoneggs:
<strong>The one thing to keep in mind is that Dylan sees everything that is going on and makes note of it. She may not acknowledge it right now but it surely registers.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is a pity. Obviously, a big enough part of her wants this to work out, otherwise she wouldn't be here. That being the case, and holding the knowledge that a little encouragement can go a long way, why does she choose not to encourage? And why has it been like this for so long? I mean, she knows me well enough to know what will boost me up and inspire me to do well, and she knows what will devastate me and we all know how wise my decision making is when I'm devastated...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">walkingoneggs:
<strong>So it is your responsibility to do all the right things as both father and husband. I don't suggest this can be done indefinitely but be sure to give it your all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, er... this part of it actually do intend to do indefinitely. A good father and a good husband is a big part of who I want to be.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">walkingoneggs:
<strong>Blue skies may be just around the corner.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess I should buy a lotto ticket then... I'm sorry to sound so cynical... it's just that this has been in stagnate mode for over a year now.

Yes there's been spikes and downs, but it seems to always float back to nowhere. And I believe it will continue to do so until a decision is jointly made that a plan for recovery be put into practice.

And I will hang on until that time comes. Or until Dylan decides that it's over. And I won't pressure her to make that decision either. I'll just hang on. And keep hanging on. And keep working on me as best I can.

And to be honest, I'm not sure what that's going to mean. We'll see.

Lots of people think I don't get it. I can see why they might think that. I lurk a lot... and jump in every now and again when I think I can offer something positive and constuctive, but I usually on really post when there's a crisis.

And when there's a crisis, I go foggy. It's what made me such a serial cheater. My emotions literally cloud my thinking and my perceptions and it's like a grab bag of total non-logic.

Now, I don't cheat anymore. With the help of Dylan and the folks here at MB (circa '99) I overcame that particular character flaw, but the mode of emotional thinking is still there and can lead to other faulty decisions.

The ADs seem to be helping with this a great deal. Although, considering what's going on in my life right now, the dosage might need to be adjusted.

Regardless, what I'm trying to say is that I know my path. Sometimes though, it gets sooooooooo discouraging and a lot of 'affair' issues cannot be laid to rest and those things bring a daily pain that is so profount that... well, you know.

Anyway, I gotta go...

ttfn,

J

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I care deeply about what others think of me, with rare exceptions. Each in his/her own way, though. I want my boss to consider me an excellent and loyal employee. I want my kids to think I'm a loving Father. I want my wife to think I'm irresistible. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you ever posted to 2oak? The last time he was around for a period of time, he was posting about how HE has created his life to enable him to be the man he wants to be.

He wants to be a good father. So he regularly focuses on his child, does things with (her? I think he has a daughter), listens to her, and does all things that to HIM, a good father does.

He also wants to be the best H he can be. To him, that means being the best friend, lover, partner that he can possibly be. He pays attention to what she likes, what she doesn't like, he has learned a lot about EN's and how to meet them.

He says this is different than his "old" life, in that in his old life, he was all about making 2oak happy. He mostly thought about what would make him happy, why he wasn't happy, and again how he could make himself happy.

He realizes NOW that being a good father and H is so important to him, that just by DOING those things, he is happy! Almost like his own little secret to life, discovered.

And about getting foggy in a crisis, I think we all do that. I am always amazed at how differently I think when I am very upset! I will feel justified, righteous with my anger, my harsh words, etc. "It's not OK for others to do," I think to myself, "but I have been pushed and it is OK for me to throw my anger/hurt/frustration around."

Then after I calm down, I think, "What was I THINKING?" And over the years, I have learned that if I am that upset, I need to keep my mouth shut, because no matter how justified or "right" I feel in the moment, I will regret it later.

I think that is just maturity. Making some boundaries within yourself, for yourself. I teach my kids how to identify their emotions. Sometimes, their emotions are so strong, they get a PHYSICAL feeling, like a tight tummy, or they can feel their blood pounding in their temples. That is when they know they need to take their own timeout. Us adults should do the same thing.

I don't think knowing yourself well has to mean that you can make yourself more foggy. I think it CAN, but if you use the information you have differently, you can CHANGE. For example, like I stated above, I know when I get to a certain level (tightness in my tummy!), that I shouldn't be talking to the person who I feel offended by. I can vent to a friend, or my H, so I don't BLOW, but I know I need to speak to that person when I am calm. So I can use my "I feel" phrases, instead of, "You always make me blah blah blah."

I do find it interesting that I have heard you indicate a couple of times that you hold Dylan partially responsible for your happiness/well-being. If by her living in the same house with you, you expect that, even on a subconscious level, that might be reason enough to move apart. She has not indicated to you that she wants to be responsible for any part of you anymore. Yet I think you still seek that out from her, and then experience negative emotions when it isn't forthcoming.

M works when 2 healthy, WHOLE individuals come together in a consentual union, sharing of themselves, but also complete on their own. I didn't know this until H had his A, and 8 months of MC later. I always thought "two halves to make a whole." While that sounds romantic and all, it is really a recipe for disaster, IMO.

You cannot look to Dylan to complete you, or fill you up in any way. That is probably why she has pulled away so completely from you, as she might feel dragged down by your "need" of her. In the beginning, it is great to feel needed. My H did, and his actions and reactions to that encouraged my "needs" over the years. To the point that I believed I needed him to LIVE. Below that I believed I needed him for me to be happy.

Spidey

I'm not sure we're on the same page here in some spots... in others I think I might be 'not getting it'.

I will reread a bit later when time is not pressing...

John

oops...

john

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not sure we're on the same page here in some spots... in others I think I might be 'not getting it'. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OR, I might have moved to a different "book" in some spots, so you have no hope of following me. OR, I might not be "getting it."

Sometimes, when I post, stuff just comes out. I always hope it's relevant, as other sometimes tell me it is. However, sometimes it is NOT relevant, as others sometimes tell me as well.

It's perfectly OK to say, "Spidey, I think you are full of crap. Let's talk about the weather."

I'm down with that. I am not a licensed professional. I probably know just enough about relationships to be classified as a danger, BUT, my heart is in the right place. The last thing I want to do is harm anyone, so if you are feeling bad about my posts, please tell me.

I have picked up on a couple of things you have said, that I perceive as wrong-thinking (if there is a right and wrong), and I am just trying to persue those avenues. Just challenging, actually.

Now, what page ARE we on, exactly? More importantly, what BOOK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spider Slayer:
<strong> The last thing I want to do is harm anyone, so if you are feeling bad about my posts, please tell me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, being naturally introspective, whenever someone gives me a new perspective, I try to keep myself open to it's possible validity.

Particularily if something makes me 'feel bad' or otherwise tests my comfort level.

Believe me, even the stuff that's off gets me to look inside and that helps even if the advice is 180.

Having said all that, I wanna add that I don't think you are full of crap and furthermore, I'd like to pursue this conversation with you. I find your insight valuable and am actually a little thrilled when I get to write that 'I'm not getting it,' cause it usually means there's something to learn there.

Anyway, I'm just home for lunch, so this is gonna be brief.

Today is Dylan's birthday so I may not have a chance to post later. (It's taken me almost a decade to figure out, but I think she likes it when I pay attention to her on her birthday)

John