H left for Oregon this morning. Very early.

My heart is heavy and my guts are twisted in knots.

He doesn't get it.

I think a letter is in order..first a clarification of boundaries letter [read..plea for comprehension/understanding/change at THIS level..plea that I don't have to pull the trigger].

He is still focussed on HIS side of the equation. Not considering things from mine.

Example. Last night H was playing Ye Olde Online Game. Since my earlier suspicions were confirmed unfounded by an unattended chat history that stretched out to the horizon I dropped the issue. The discomfort has not left though. I think that if I am uncomfortable..that's reason enough for change to occur. I also don't think I really even need to BE justified..just honest.

Last night sealed the deal though. He was playing [I was sitting and watching] and he found a player who had something he wanted. They agreed to make the exchange but would not be able to do it that day. He added her to his friends list. I said something to the tune of Whoa there nelly..I'm not comfortable with this..don't add her to your friends list..make the exchange some other way or find someone else.

I also said [rather pointedly] if you are worried about being rude [because rudeness to others trumps rudeness to me, si?] then you can say that you are sorry, but out of respect for your wife and consideration of her feelings..you don't interact with players of the opposite sex.

He friended her and said a few.."you're so crazy..don't be ridiculous" type statements.

Soooooo..I resisted the urge to flip the monitor off of the computor desk onto the floor [don't rush me, that took real effort] and began to process this and as I did I became more and more uncomfortable with his trip..even though it is for the funeral of a friend..even though it is only two days..I am uncomfortable because he doesn't get it..and that leaves me exposed.

This will be my last ditch effort to help him get it..before I am forced to up the ante.

I don't want to, but that doesn't mean I won't. It's frustrating though..that this has to be the situation now that I have recovered my in love feelings for him. Too bad. It's extra painfull that way. Oh well..no one ever died of pain.

So..give me some pointers MBers..what to include in the letter..give me examples.

Later today I will post my thumbnail letter and let you all critique it.

I have until Thurs when he returns..that's my dealine..and because it will be such a weighty transitional letter I want to get it just right..leave no dark corners.

Noodle

Hi Noodle,

You could tell him exactly what you told us... that when he chose to continue communicating with that other female on his game, that you felt unloved and unappreciated (or whatever you felt)...

Try to paint him a word picture of what your feelings are when he acts or doesn't act in a way that makes you feel safe and secure.

It's important to let the WS know in no uncertain terms how their ACTION makes you FEEL .

You have such a wonderful way of expressing yourself, so I'm sure that you'll be able to let him know how you're feeling and it will be a great letter... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

Noodle,

I understand how you feel. It took me a while to see how what I had done carried over into other situations involving members of the oppposite sex, so I'm guessing that he isn't making that conncection. In other words, he had a ONS (correct me if I'm wrong) so he doesn't see how an on-line relationship would be a threat to you. He probably thinks he would NEVER be vulnerable to that type of "affair"! I guess what I'm saying is that somehow you'll need to explain that what he did has left you feeling, as you said, "exposed" in ALL areas involving women, and that you aren't necessarily saying that something WILL happen, but that don't feel sure of ANYTHING at this point yet! Also, it might be a good idea ti stress to him that you aren't trying to "punish" him by enforcing your boundaries, but that you simply NEED for him to respect them so he can gain your trust back. Just my point of view!
Good luck with the letter....you are good at articulating things, so I think you'll be fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


NOW

noodle, can I make a suggestion? Let me explain first. I fully understand your dismay at his interaction with other females on the game board. My DH plays spades and it used to send me into the ozone when he played with females or put them on his buddy list. But he was in a tough situation.

He couldn't exactly avoid certain things [innocent things] connected with the game without making it look like a big deal and causing great embarrassment. Such as telling some female player that it would bother his wife if he added her to his list. At least in spades games, while romantic interaction is certainly a possibility, it is a remote possibility because that is not the environment.

So, everytime I would make a comment about his spades games, he would be offended and it would push us farther apart. The reason is because he was truly doing nothing more than playing spades and he was insulted when I would insinutate it could be more and when I would watch him like a mommy. It was a huge lovebuster that left me feeling so ugly and unwanted.

So, how was I to avoid that? I put spyware on his computer and was able to see EXACTLY what was being said. I didn't have to demean myself anymore or insult him with endless questions. I could see for myself what he was really doing when he didn't think I was around.

Being able to see what he was doing behind my back did WONDERS to restore trust in my marriage. I had the evidence that he was being faithful and respectful to me behind my back. And I got it without lovebusting him. I was able to relax and we stopped being the jailor and the jailee. It was an amazing difference.

Melody,

Did you ever tell him about the spyware?
RH did this to me and while I completely understood, it still left me feeling like a little kid. He eventually told me about it, and I realized that in itself showed he trusted me. Still, I don't really know what to think about spyware....it is pretty deceptive, IMO.

NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> Melody,

Did you ever tell him about the spyware?
RH did this to me and while I completely understood, it still left me feeling like a little kid. He eventually told me about it, and I realized that in itself showed he trusted me. Still, I don't really know what to think about spyware....it is pretty deceptive, IMO.

NOW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, one is reduced to such measures when you are dealing with an untrustworthy person. It is a protective measure and I don't consider it wrong to protect oneself; I consider it smart. It is a marriage building tool that is necessary to rebuild trust.

And no, I never told him about it, I eventually removed it once I was satisfied that he was, in fact, trustworthy. I wouldn't ever tell him, though, in case I ever need to use it again.

Interesting.

There is a concept in the Army called "Implied Orders". Now, you don't have to be a scientist to get this idea, but sometimes the subtle things are the hardest to understand.

Obviously no one is confused as to what a direct order is. Officer walks up and says, "SFC Patriot, I need you to get X done for me." "Yes sir." I have recieved an order and it is clear.

Now, the oft used, but sometimes misunderstood Implied order might go something like this. "I really need X to get done.",says the Officer in the presence of SFC Patriot. And my receiving this 'order' would be most driven my my initiative. The Officer didn't assign the task to me, but he needs it done. So, I will do it.

So, initiative is an important concept here, I think. Now, what it seems to me is initiative is getting overriden by something. Maybe he has none. Maybe he just isn't listening. Maybe he just doesn't care. I don't know. If if was a fifth, we'd all be drunk.

I will say this, though. Based on the response you said he made, what it sounds like to me is he is sure it is innocent, that he is doing nothing wrong because he will never participate in an A again, and you should relax... sheesh!..

And there is the problem. Recovery is based on the BS, because as you so aptly put it, the only card the WS has is the "I can leave" card. BS holds the rest of the deck, save the cards that the WS continues to swat out of the grasping BS's hands in an attempt to balance power.

If you are uncomfortable with something, it is wholly your responsibility to convey that message to him. Once transmission is sent, he needs to act upon it. Also, simply deferring to you in all things right now might go a long way in making you more comfortable.

like instead of trading for fictious digital wares with a female online, maybe trading fleeting glances with you for a moment.

Maybe, just maybe I should listen to myself.

Melody, what do you think he would do if he ever DID find out?


NOW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong> Melody, what do you think he would do if he ever DID find out?


NOW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect he would apologize for putting me in that position in the first place. I should not have HAD to do that, NOW. And thankfully, he has always been very remorseful about his affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect he would apologize for putting me in that position in the first place. I should not have HAD to do that, NOW. And thankfully, he has always been very remorseful about his affair. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As did I.


NOW

I could put spywear on the computor..but what is the point?

Shall I also have him trailed by a PI for the rest of our lives?

Shall I frisk him at the door and have him take a polygraph?

I'm not interested in running a police state. I'm not interested in snooping or investigating him. I am sorry to be such a snot..but that behavior is beneath me. It makes me sick in my soul. Turns me into someone that even I do not respect. While his value to me may be immeasurable..this marriage is not worth living that way. I already have all of the information that I require to act.

I could well understand it in trying to confirm an A..trying to be compassionate toward a spouse who has fallen into an addiction.

This is two years after the fact. There is no excuse for his continued ignorance. He is too comfortable..too assured. I have towed the burden too far and too long.

The example I described above has demonstrated to me, that the necessary internal changes have not occurred.

Is he regretfull of his A. Sure, I believe that.

Does he really believe that he will never do it again?

Yep, I'd swallow that also.

That isn't good enough.


His reaction to my discomfort..while not indicative that he is guilty of any wrongdoing..is VERY indicative to me that his perspective has not become one of a mature, remorsefull, formerWS. He has resisted going through the process..and I think I have not insisted..or his resistance is beyond my ability to insist.

After all, I can only control myself.

I do not WANT any fruit that I had to twist his arm to get. Either he chooses of his own free will and desire to learn and grow and seek wisdom..or he loses his opportunity to be my husband. He punched my ticket out rather soundly after all. Pounded it into the matress with a smile on his face and a lie on his lips.

Reconciliation is priviledge and mercy..not right.

I have gone as far as I am able on my own..my growth is beginning to move me away from the marriage as he remains in stasis..so I'll pause..and give him the information with a plea that he come to me..but I can't carry him, and I can't go back.

Gee, is there any NICE way to put that?

Noodle

The plan of joint agreement (POJA) states that you should both be in "enthusiastic agreement" as to whether your husband should be spending time playing cards with women online.
Are you in "enthusiastic agreement" with it? (sound of crickets)
How about the two of you playing cards together instead?
Why is playing cards online more important to him than you feeling safe in the relationship? Hmmm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

RCC,

If H had the slightest interest in MB principles I'm sure that would be a good question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not WANT any fruit that I had to twist his arm to get. Either he chooses of his own free will and desire to learn and grow and seek wisdom..or he loses his opportunity to be my husband. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the kind of ultimatum I would respond to....not threats of spyware or any other such thing.

Noodle, the way you put all of that sounds good to me.....I don't think you have to sugar coat anything you said....and it doesn't sound mean or cruel in any way, either. Just the truth.

NOW

We posted at the same time. Your last post helps me understand totally how you are feeling. I agree with you that the lack of care is very discouraging. You want relationship, not law.

NOW,

I understand your point… It agree it is not right to spy on a FORMER WS who is truly remorseful; repentant; have made amends in the M and already proofed themselves to be changed and trustworthy people…I can understand why it felt deceitful for you when you found out your H spied on you… Of course it’s a different story if the WS is still wayward and involved in contact with the OP or show inappropriate behavior with the opposite sex. In such circumstances the BS still needs (and must) spy on the spouse.

Greetings, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzette,

Yes, it felt deceitful, yet in that instant I realized I had really just gotten a dose of my own medicine, that the REASON it made me feel a bit "sick" was the SAME reason my A made RH feel sick!
I understood all of that BEFORE, but that event pushed my understanding up a notch. And sadly I also realized I could not trust him any more than he could trust me....Steve Harley says spouses should NOT trust each other. That's hard to wrap your mind around. Trust is something that is SO important to people, yet it is a standard that NOBODY can live up to completely or perfectly.

I want to stress, again, that I understand WHY RH did that, and I am SORRY I ever put him in that position (I told him as much). I am glad that he eventually told me. The problem I have with it is the secrecy involved, the very thing a BS is trying to eliminate from the WS.

The thing is, my knowing about the spyware, and the possibility that there are other things he could do along the same lines, is a deterrent in itself! I don't like it, no.....but I accept it. It's just that at the time it felt as though my own efforts as trust re-building were not good enough. That was a big blow. And now, will he think that I'm only "being good" because of the spyware and not because I WANT to be? It is kind of a catch-22.

NOW

Noodle

I did this same dance with my H...and I did catch him in an inappropriate conversation online with the W of a co-worker of his....I put a keylogger on the computer and it took ONE frigging NIGHT to catch him...

The exchange was along the lines of `Dream of my handsome face tonight.....

I of course flipped and my H was furious that I would have the GALL to spy on him....

But it made a believer out of him....he understood that not only did I have the GALL to spy on him....I had enough technological know how to do so.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I made my boundary crystal clear...You do it again buddy and you will come home to an empty house. And I meant it.

And that ended that.

They only stop when they know they cannot get away with it anymore.

My H is VERY careful and does not do anything that I might even remotely find offensive. And I still do check from time to time.

<small>[ February 22, 2005, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

Noodle, I just want to tell you I understand what you're going through. I think I wrote on another one of your threads how my H was beginning to get into some dysfunctional behavior over the past few months. I didn't think he was having an A, but his behavior took me back to how I felt during that time. Basically when he felt LBed, and it wasn't taking much for that to occur, he would withdraw into this cold state for self-protection. The 1st few times he did this I told him it was reinjuring me. I was feeling like I did during his A when he cut me off. I asked him to please choose not to deal with problems in this way. Well, he kept doing it. This didn't happen often, but when it happened it was just too damamging to me.

I ended up writing him 2 separate letters. We now are back in MC. No matter how much H understood why he withdraws when he feels a certain way, the feelings were too strong for him to act in a healthy manner. It felt very scary for me and depressed me to realize that if he doesn't change and want to work towards recovery, I'd have to leave the M. However, since the A there are certain things I can't live with anymore.

Back to you. You have every right to know what you need to recover from this. It is the WS's job to help us recover the M, and to help us to heal. I used to be so innocent about people before this happened. H actually was also. Our OW was very seductive and he didn't know how to handle it. I have learned that there are plenty of potential OPs out there. People that don't care about other people's Ms. I don't blame you for feeling uneasy about him talking to females online. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by notonlywords*:
<strong>
And sadly I also realized I could not trust him any more than he could trust me....Steve Harley says spouses should NOT trust each other. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NOW, I would argue that using spyware [when appropriate] is not untrustworthy behavior. It is wise, protective behavior to that is utilized to protect someone who has been burned in the past. Unfortunately, when a WS destroys the trust in a marriage, a BS has to deal with crap like this to protect themselves.

No one has the right to the privacy to destroy another behind their back and the BS has an obligation to make sure that does not happen again. But untrustworthy? No. It is no more untrustworthy behavior than the FBI putting a tap on drug dealers.

I will add that putting spyware on my H's computer was the single greatest aide to restoring trust in my marriage. It PROVED to me that he was trustworthy when someone was not looking. I learned to trust him again very quickly this way.