Hi Bellevue,

At first I was not going to respond to your request for me to start a new thread, as I feel that everybody has a unique view of faith and my relationship with god is personal and could differ greatly from other people who share my religeon. In spite of this disclaimer I am more than willing to enter into a respectful discussion with you, FGG, Foreverhers, and anybody else who would like to join.

Hope to hear from you soon.

PS. I am also in the middle of a slight work crisis, so please excuse me if I take a while to respond.

Curiosity -

I am "curious" to see where this goes. If it's okay with you, I may be more of a lurker than a participant.

However, let me say that I, as a conservative Christian, appreciate your calm respectful attitude and demeanor. I hope that my fellow Christians will enter into a discussion with you in the same context.

And...I reserve the right to jump in from time to time, okay?

FGG

Hi FGG,

I have enormous respect for you and as I already mentioned to you, one of the main reasons I lurk here is to see how you are getting along. I looking forward to having you lurk / comment on this thread, and will jump in on yours again if I have anything relevant or intelligent to say.

Hi Curiosity, Also hi FGG,

I just spent 20 minutes looking for Curiosity's member number so I could initiate a thread for discussion together. Though unsuccessful, I am very happy to find you have started this first, and I am pleased to join you.

Please post when work permits.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Bellevue,

The only thing I was trying to say on FGG's thread is that I felt you were putting too much emphasis on the the role that the OM's religeon plays in FGG's situation.

Furthermore, I feel that some of the sites you had posted are guilty of prejudice, narrow-mindedness and over-generalisation. Many of them seemed to be nothing more than anti-Islamic hate sites, similar to those operated by white-supremicist groups and other radical fringe groups.

In my post to FGG, I was trying to point out the danger of picking an attribute of the OM's, which arguably has nothing to do with the situation, and then extrapolating your views of the OM and applying them to all other people who share this attribute.

I have read hundreds of posts on this board where BS's claim they cannot undertand how their WS's who were raised as, and consider themselves to be, devote Christians could forget their Christian teachings and commit such heinous acts. Never have I heard somebody question in any of the other cases the effect of the OP's religeous beliefs on the WS's moral deterioration. Why is it imperative in FGG's case that the OM is a muslim?? Would you have posted links to anti-aethism sites had the OM been an Aethist?? or anti-buddhism sites had the OM been a Buddhist??

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 04:51 AM: Message edited by: CuriosityKilledTheCat ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CuriosityKilledTheCat:
[QB] Hi Bellevue,

The only thing I was trying to say on FGG's thread is that I felt you were putting too much emphasis on the the role that the OM's religeon plays in FGG's situation.
--------------
Perhaps. The OM's lack of respect toward FGG's marriage enables him to maintain an emotionally improper relationship, knowing full well that FGG opposes it. OP's of all faiths do this, and cause all kinds of hurt.

Even if the OM were a Southern Baptist, I think we can agree his behavior is contemptible.

More to come ---

here it comes ---
I went back and clicked onto the links I put into my post a day or two ago, to look at them with different eyes. Could we talk about something specific in them - MEMRI for example -

and can you say what is incorrect, or not factual, or a bad translation? Because I don't speak Arabic and I need to rely on translations, and I surely hope they aren't deceiving me. The Muslim friends I have are only conversant in the kind of Arabic used in services; not in the media. (Sort of like Catholics mostly know Latin from the Mass ...)

To date I trust the writers and have met a few personally and purchased their books. I hope they aren't steering me wrong. They seem so personable and bright ....

More later, hope your work isn't swamping you too badly. Going out tonight, classes.

Look forward to reading more from you.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bellevue:
<strong>
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
http://jihadwatch.org/
http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/weblog.php
http://www.memri.org/saudiarabia.html
http://www.mideasttruth.com/forum/
http://www.anti-cair-net.org/
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Bellvue,

From the sites you posted, I would say MEMRI is probably the most factual. But even the MEMRI site is very one-sided. Arabic people love to debate, and the favorite topic for debate is politics. The Arab media, like the public, is highly vocal and actively provokes this debate. You can have two articles in the same newspaper arguing conflicting views. MEMRI chooses to highlight only one side of that debate. If you look in the cartoons section you will see links to cartoons labelled as Anti-US or Anti-Semetic but they do not show the cartoons that make fun of the arabs themselves, or their politicians, or France, or everything else under the sun for that matter. Just as the views of Ariel Sharon and the Likud Party do not represent the views of every Jew (or even the majority!!), the views of certain writers in the Arab media do not represent the views of the every Muslim. Please do not forget that the vast majority of the world's Muslims are not from the Middle East and do not even speak Arabic.

Also, almost all of these sites are about Islamic Terrorism and the Arab-Isreali situation, how do they help FGG??

Heres the other part of your post that captured my attention.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bellevue:
<strong> FYI, the Muslim Iranian man who is corresponding with your wife views both of you as inferior species, he does not respect your marriage, your wife, Christianity, any OTHER faith, or our country. Muslims do not convert to Christianity. Research through these links about the official Islamic stance toward dhimmis (anyone who is not a Muslim) and toward converts away from Islam.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a disrespectful judgement. I am originally from an Arabic country, however, I have lived most of my life in Europe, with a stint in the US (currently back in Europe). My wife is a Christian European, who is definately my better half. Although, I am now half tempted to call her an "inferior species" next time we get into an argument <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

As for not respecting any other faith, one of my favorite passages in the Quran states "To you your religeon and to me mine". Muslims believe that Islam is the continuation of Old testement and the New and we are obliged to respect all people of the book. Therefore, we hold the Prophets Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed in the same esteem. In fact the only major difference between Islam's view of Jesus and Christianity's is the fact that Muslims do not consider Jesus to be the Son of God. According to the Quran, God is the creator, He was not born and He does not conceive.

I'm wondering how you can so sure that this Iranian Canadian Muslim does not respect your country?? What do you mean by disrespect?? If he's considering moving there, he must at least find it tolerable. I spent 2 years in NYC and absolutely loved it, almost half of my friends are Americans. However, I definately have had my reservations about American foreign and domestic politics in the past. Do my views of various American governments mean I disrespect your country?? Nothing is ever that black and white, you can go to France and love the wine but hate the cheese. Does that make you anti-French?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In spite of this disclaimer I am more than willing to enter into a respectful discussion with you, FGG, Foreverhers, and anybody else who would like to join. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CuriosityKilledTheCat - hmmmmm, not sure how my name got dragged into this thread but before engaging in a discussion it would be helpful to know WHAT the topic is that is supposed to be discussed.

Could you clarify or state a Topic Point that you have in mind for discussion? At first I thought you wanted to talk about "Other Persons" and their possible "reasonings" as to why they become involved in affairs with married people. But then you began on how "similiar" how Islam is to Christianity (not even close).

If you want to discuss OP motivations, we could do that.

If you want to discuss the differences between religions, we could do that. Understand that the "opinion" that I got from reading your post is that "one religion is as good as another." That's the same thing as saying "no religion is as good as any religion." In other words, "no religion is TRUE" and all religions are simply "made up" by "man" to control others or to serve their purpose.

If you want to discuss the cultural differences between "Islamic patriarchial dominance" and "equality of the sexes" as practiced by most "western" societies, we could do that.

But it would be helpful to know what it is that YOU want to discuss, since it IS your thread.

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Hi Foreverhers,

Thanks for stopping by. I just started this thread, at Bellevue's suggestion, in order to discuss the post she had posted on FGG's thread. I "dragged" your name into it just because I would be interested in hearing your views as well on the topic we are discussing.

Regarding the similarity between Islam and Christianity, I never claimed that the two religeons are similar. I just stated that their views on the prophet Jesus are almost identical, and that all Muslims are obliged by their religeon to respect both the old and the new Testaments as well as thier followers.

Also I do not presume to know if one religeon is better than another. The reason I am Muslim is because I was born and raised as a Muslim. Had I been born in Rome I would be Catholic, had I been born in Isreal I would be Jewish, etc. This view, in my humble opinion, does not rely negate the notion of absolute truth. If we take something as mundane as your household tomato, some people consider it to be a vegetable others consider it to be a fruit. Furthermore, the word itself is pronounced differently within the English language alone, not to mention in the thousands of other languages spoken on the planet. Does this change the absolute truth of what a tomato is?

As mere mortals we are not privileged to know the absolute truth, we can have faith, but we do not know anything for a fact. Every culture approaches worship in its own way. I, as an ignorant mortal who has had the privilege of being exposed to multiple cultures, try to embrace and respect human diversity. Nobody on this planet is better or worse than me, just different. That is my view of religeon, and as I already stated at the beginning of the thread, it probably differs wildy from many who share my religeon.

CKTC - Okay, if I understand you right you want to discuss whether or not one religion is "right" and all the other religions are "wrong, or that it doesn't matter what one believes because you can't "prove" anything. Is that about right?

Okay, this is decidely "off topic" of Marriage Building, but as long as the participants can keep it civil it should be okay.

This can obviously get heated if one is not careful, so I'll participate as long as we try our best to keep it civil and actually examine the facts. Whether or not "facts" are accepted by anyone is up to them, but the "facts" remain true no matter what one may choose to accept or reject.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Regarding the similarity between Islam and Christianity, I never claimed that the two religeons are similar. I just stated that their views on the prophet Jesus are almost identical</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, this is where we will have our greatest disagreement and the "pivotal" truth, or fact. The view's about Jesus' role as a "prophet" may have some similarities, but that begs the question and avoids the fundamental difference between Christianity and all other "world religions." That difference is what the Scripure teaches about Jesus and what Jesus claimed about himself.

So the only point of real discussion here is NOT what he may or may not have said as a "prophet," but what he said as the "Living God," the "Son," the "Word". It is about "did Jesus Christ REALLY rise from the dead," because IF he did not, then all of Christianity is in vain. IF he did, then it authenticates everything about him and "negates" the validity of all other religions.

You see, CKTC, the issue IS all about Jesus Christ and who he was. ALL other religions, including many that "claim" to be "Christian," attempt to strip Jesus Christ of His divinity because that strips Jesus of his "authority" and his sovereign right to make "commands" and to lay down "the way it is," not necessarily the "way we'd like it to be."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">all Muslims are obliged by their religeon to respect both the old and the new Testaments as well as thier followers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I guess we'd have to discuss just what "respecting both the Old and the New Testaments" means. Respecting them as "literary works" or the "revealed will of God through the inspiration of the human authors?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also I do not presume to know if one religeon is better than another. The reason I am Muslim is because I was born and raised as a Muslim. Had I been born in Rome I would be Catholic, had I been born in Isreal I would be Jewish, etc. This view, in my humble opinion, does not rely negate the notion of absolute truth. If we take something as mundane as your household tomato, some people consider it to be a vegetable others consider it to be a fruit. Furthermore, the word itself is pronounced differently within the English language alone, not to mention in the thousands of other languages spoken on the planet. Does this change the absolute truth of what a tomato is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, I tend to agree with what you are saying here. Human choices and "reasons" do NOT negate truth. The fact that God exists and that He created everything is a fact, a truth, that exists whether we choose to agree with it or not.

Now, with respect to what you are saying about being a Muslim simply because that was the "culture" that you were raised in, I agree. That is true also for many who claim to be Christians. But REAL Christianity is not "inherited." It is a personal choice that each individual must make for themselves to accept Jesus Christ as THE Messiah (Savior)who was promised in the Old Testament AND as the sovereign LORD who is "God the Son" of the Triune God.

It is precisely this personal decision to accept or reject Jesus Christ that IS the fundamental difference.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As mere mortals we are not privileged to know the absolute truth, we can have faith, but we do not know anything for a fact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CKTC, this is the same "logic" that is used, and has been used, for centuries to deny acceptance of Jesus Christ. But it is also patently false. We CAN know absolute truth because the person who is telling us the absolute truth IS God the Son himself, Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah (Christ).

If you want to examine the FACTS we can do so. The thing about those facts though, is that they can still be denied if someone wants to. Usually, if they do choose to deny the facts, it's because to accept them as truth would, of necessity, require them to make changes in their lives that they don't want to make.

In short, without getting into the specifics and "proofs", here are the ONLY choices available to us concerning the person Jesus Christ, who existed as a real live person approximately 2000 years ago and is recognized as existing by both believers and unbelievers alike;

There are only 4 choices:

1. Liar (He knowingly lied about who he was, and thus was no Prophet of God, much less the Messiah)

2. Lunatic (He sincerely "believed" he was God, but he was just as sincerely "insane" as those who are in institutions for the insane and believe that they are Napoleon or some other person.)

3. Legend (He never really existed. He was a "myth" but never really existed, or was lied about by his disciples in their writings in the New Testament in order to foster their own selfish purposes.)

4. LORD (Jesus claimed to be God. If His claims are true, then he IS LORD.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Every culture approaches worship in its own way. I, as an ignorant mortal who has had the privilege of being exposed to multiple cultures, try to embrace and respect human diversity. Nobody on this planet is better or worse than me, just different. That is my view of religeon, and as I already stated at the beginning of the thread, it probably differs wildy from many who share my religeon. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No doubt it may differ from other Muslims, but it also differs from what I believe. "Respecting others" is fine and good. But you probably need to be more precise in how you are defining "better or worse." When you say that "Nobody on this planet is better or worse than me, just different", I would say that "judgment" is fatally flawed because many of us, with or without religion, WILL "grade" criminals and murderers "worse than" ourselves.

If you mean intrinsically that we are all created by God and have "worth" as a result, I agree. But SIN causes distinctions and those who have given themselves over to sinful pursuits usually do at the expense of others.

God has decreed that there there IS a heaven and a hell. God has further decreed that the defining difference in destination for all humans is their position regarding Jesus Christ as their personal LORD and Savior, or not.

So, where would you like to begin the discussion?

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 10:34 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>