I'm not sure of all the details but from what I've read so far it seems he was dating Lisa and Lisa found out there was an OW and broke up with him because of it. He married the OW. Lisa was pregnant (doesn't say whether she/he knew about that when he married the OW). He killed Lisa and her children to prevent Lisa from telling his wife. I haven't seen any epxlanation yet as to which woman was the first one he was dating and which one was the 'OW'...

IMHO this is a clear example of why you should expose ASAP! If Lisa had contacted the OW when she broke up with him AND had contacted the OW/wife about her pregnancy, the motive for murder (preventing his wife from finding out) would not have been there. Lisa and her children would most likely be alive today if she had exposed everything to her friends, family, OW, his family.

Secrecy protects NOBODY. Secrecy endangers those who are keeping quiet.

I guess he figured since it had all been kept so secret so far, HE was 'safe' to get away with murder, wouldn't be a suspect. So he could just get rid of his 'problem' by getting rid of the person who had kept it secret so far.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Barbee met Underwood two years ago in her bagel shop. They dated until last fall because he had another girlfriend whom he has since married. So, she was NOT an OW and she did NOTHING to deserve her own death or the death of her children.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050223/ap_on_re_us/missing_family_29

I really wonder WHY she allowed herself to be impregnated by this man....

This guy is obviously a nut. How she could have relationship with him close enough to allow herself to become impregnated and still not realise that this guy was seriously WHACKED is beyond me.

I simply cannot believe that there were not red flags...the fact that he was stringing along two women at the same time would be one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Setting fires to trees would be another <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

It`s funny how this thread took a turn to affairs being a crime punishable by death...I was thinking the same thing when I heard about this story.

How does society decide what should be punishable offenses and what should not?

Everyone agrees that murder is a horrible offense...and I think everyone agrees that affairs are horrible offenses too.

The pain felt by the BS on d-day and for a LONG time afterwards could be compared to to pain one would feel by losing a loved one to murder or being murdered yourself. Perhaps even worse...I don`t know...I haven`t had a loved one murdered and I am still here.

But I do remember clearly thinking and telling my H after d-day "I wish you had just killed me...stuck a knife in back...instead of subjecting me to this..if you had then this would be OVER for me now....I would not be in such pain that I can see NO END to..."

The pain of betrayal is extreme. For me it was actually physical and emotional. I felt totally destroyed.

Both types of "crimes" cause an almost immeasurable amount of pain for the victims and their families. However...a person can come back from a betrayal....a BS can eventually get over it and move on with their lives. A murder victim cannot. Maybe this is why infidelity is not a capitol offense in our part of the world.

Daisy....there was no affair. She dated this guy before he was married. She broke up with him because he had another girlfriend.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Daisy37:
<strong> How does society decide what should be punishable offenses and what should not?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why we have the justice system we do...trial by jury!

An Affair is not classified as a crime as you have put it! It is not against the law to "cheat" on your spouse!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> So, she was NOT an OW and she did NOTHING to deserve her own death or the death of her children.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050223/ap_on_re_us/missing_family_29 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If what Barbee says is true and that`s a BIG if...she was trying to pressure him into leaving his W. It`s possible that the W was the OW here...

It just doesn`t sound right...if he got married in the fall he was most likely dating these two women last summer when Lisa got pregnant.

If what he says is true why on earth would she WANT him...she knew he was married the day he killed her...she knew he capable of having TWO relationships going...and he didn`t even have the excuse "My W doesn`t understand me...my needs aren`t getting met blah..blah...blah..." Cause he wasn`t even married at that point when she got pregnant.

This is VERY poor judgement IMHO...and it is SO sad that this sweet little boy had to pay for his mother`s bad judgement.

Anyway I am sure that more of this story will come out but from what I have heard so far...the Mom placed herself and her son in a dangerous situation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Daisy....there was no affair. She dated this guy before he was married. She broke up with him because he had another girlfriend. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I know this...but when the story first broke and there were not many details available I did think about what crimes deserve what punishments.

I am still undecided as to whether infidelity should be a punishable offense or not...obviously I would not want the death penalty for it....BUT it does seem kind of odd to me that stealing...rape...murder all offenses that hurt victims DOES merit some kind of punishment from our society and yet betrayal does not.

And no one can deny that a betrayal HURTS it`s victims a great deal.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:51 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

You know, given that an affair often sparks a crime of passion, I really think it ought to be illegal, but I really doubt it would ever pass in a vote. Politicians aren't famous for their fidelity.

I can't think of another event, aside from murder, that rivals an affair in it's destructiveness, or it's possibility of destructiveness.

You know, I am really surprised more BS don't snap, I really am, I was really close....and I got it back into check, but I could have very easily not sought help, and let me tell you, the kind of pain I was feeling I don't know that murder wouldn't have been an option.....thank GOD it wasn't, but what I'm saying is, when a person is under that much pressure, in that much pain they're mind tends to warp, and they do things they wouldn't normally do.

I am sorry that this woman died, I am more sorry that her unborn child died, but most sorry for the little boy, who has another parent out there today grieving for his son, because his mother made bad choices and put him in danger.

-Caren

Caren....there was no affair. This murderer was also NOT a betrayed spouse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RollerCoasterPro:
<strong>

An Affair is not classified as a crime as you have put it! It is not against the law to "cheat" on your spouse! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes I know...but I wonder why not.

I know WS`s have their reasons for their actions but then again so do robbers. So does anyone who commits a crime that hurts other people.

I guess it boils down to "How do we define a crime?"

Why is it that certain actions that hurt people are considred crimes deserving of punishment while other actions committed that hurt people are not...

I am not saying that we should throw all the WSs in jail....I just find it interesting that some crimes or actions that hurt others are given passes while others are not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Caren....there was no affair. This murderer was also NOT a betrayed spouse. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It may not have been techically an affair but it was a love triangle of which at least TWO of the parties involved were aware of.... If you can believe what Barbee has said so far.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

Yeah, I know....was just going with the thought that affairs should be illegal, no arguing that the mother made bad choices though, eh? I mean this guy had to be whacked in the head.

I also know the murderer wasn't a BS, I was just stating that it would be easy for a BS to snap under the strain.

Sorry if I was unclear.

-Caren

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

I think to say that this woman was somehow at fault for her own murder and the murder of her son just because she was involved with this man at some point is rediculous.

If that were the case, then as a BS that reconsiles with a cheating WW/WH that has another A AFTER reconsiliation....we would have to take 50% of the blame because we reconsiled with them.

That's a bunch of hogwash.

The report that I read said that she was involved with him and when she found out that he had another girlfiend she called it quits. THEN she found out she was pregnant. She was more than willing to raise the baby on her own....WITHOUT the help of Barbee. According to her friends....all she wanted was for his W to know that he was going to be a father.

Also according to friends.....she didn't want to hurt the wife...and didn't want a relationship with Barbee. She thought that the W had a right to know what kind of peron he was.

Apparently.....Barbee didn't want his wife to know exactly what kind of person he was.

Guess it's too late for that now.

This didn't have to happen....and the ONLY person to blame is the man that killed INNOCENT people.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it was a love triangle </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not seeing a "love triangle" Caren. These people broke up before his marriage. They were not dating eachother anymore....and apparently, he didn't want the responsibility of a child concieved before his marriage or his wife to know about that child. So they argued and he strangled the life out of three people...including two babies. She must have said something to REALLY piss him off...but she doesn't deserve to die for that.

Star-

I never said it was a love triangle.

I'm not debating any of these issues, I said I was sorry that she was killed, and sorry that her baby died. I can't help but be most sorry that the 7 year old died, poor little boy. At least the baby didn't know what was happening.

I was only faulting the woman with bad choices, not that she was responsible for her own murder.

-Caren

Caren....I was talking to Daisy chere....sorry. She said it was a love triangle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am not saying that we should throw all the WSs in jail....I just find it interesting that some crimes or actions that hurt others are given passes while others are not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that all WS's or OP's should be in jail, I just think it should be considered a crime, c'mon...can't they give 'em a ticket?? I mean you get a ticket for jay walking or littering, but not for systematically destroying your own family....something is amiss here.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong> Caren....I was talking to Daisy chere....sorry. She said it was a love triangle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well you see Miss Priss just added more to the story...as more comes out my opinion will change accordingly.

Well I still wonder how she could have become involved with such a weirdo. I cannot believe that someone that far off the beam did not show signs of it.

Someone who would be able to put their hand over the mouth of a seven year old and hold it there till the child died would have to be completely cracked. How was he able to dupe TWO women...

I have run across weirdos in my life. At various times and places. And they have not all done wacko things in front of my eyes either. But I got a feeling that something was OFF...and I cut ties. And later found my instincts were right.

I think most people do have an internal radar system. But for some reason some people will choose to ignore it.

That said.. I will tell you something VERY strange that happened to me...and YES I did ignore it....

As H and I were exchanging our wedding vows right there in front of everyone....a thought popped in my head ` H will cheat on me one day` I had never thought that before...and it actually stunned me...and I remember walking around the table to sign the wedding register in kind of a robotic mode.

H had never given me any reason that I consciously picked up on that he would ever cheat before we were married...but obviously I had some kind of sign for that thought to pop into my head at that particular moment.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CarenMc:
<strong> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that all WS's or OP's should be in jail, I just think it should be considered a crime, c'mon...can't they give 'em a ticket?? I mean you get a ticket for jay walking or littering, but not for systematically destroying your own family....something is amiss here.

-Caren </strong>[/QUOTE]

Yes it is amiss...it does not quite make sense. This is not the first time I have thought about this...the Peterson trial and that case of the BS running over her H made me ponder this too.

It would be difficult to legislate this...the closest I have come to an answer here would be to change the laws so that WS would foreit their half of all marital property IF the BS choses a divorce. In other words if you are caught cheating you lose everything IF the BS wants to divorce you.

In the past there was this was taken into consideration in divorce court but no longer. I guess because it was hard to prove and tended to draw out the divorce proceedings. But in this day and age will all the techonolgy available I think infidelity is easier to prove.

I really do not know it it would deter anyone. It might make the BS feel better though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Daisy,

I know what you mean. I have pretty good radar too and I've learned to listen to it. What I've also learned is that some people really don't have it, or it is so underdeveloped that they don't "hear or feel" it. My husband is not intuitive at all!! Some people just get blind sided by psychos because they can really appear pretty normal until they do somthing completely cracked.

I knew a couple once....they both seemed really normal to me.....no radar went up on either side. He got depressed when he reached midlife, got involved with drugs and shot her and then himself right in front of their seven year old. Who knows what was going on with this guy???? Maybe he had a chemical imbalance, or had started doing drugs, or just had some psychotic episode. When he mounts his defense....I guess we'll hear more about it. *sigh* *sniffle* I can't get that sweet little boy's face out of my mind today. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />