The TV pundants were postulating the 7 year old boy was killed because he witnessed his Mom's murder and the killer did not want a witness <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> The TV pundants were postulating the 7 year old boy was killed because he witnessed his Mom's murder and the killer did not want a witness <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep,

I heard on the Today Show that he himself admitted that the boy came in while he was killing the Mom and started screaming. The guy admitted that he smothered the child by holding his hands over his mouth and nose.

(I'm trying to keep this clean for this board, but OMG, do I have names for this pervert!)

Star,

I have found that the easiest people to dupe are people who go around duping others.

The easiest person to lie to is a liar.

The easiest person to con is a con.

I am not quite sure why this is...but this is what I have learned in recent years by closely observing people.

This is so VERY true of my H. He used to be the easiest person to dupe. Not that I did that...but other people did.

It is funny how society chooses who the real victims are in cases like these...

A few years ago in a nearby town a police officer shot a city worker and then himself because the city worker was having an A with his W who was ALSO a police officer.

The two had been married LESS than a year. The whole police dept knew about the A before the murder suicide and after the killings the W was fired from her job and run out of town. She was seen as the main culprit in all of this. I guess because she was the only one left alive.

Wow that's rough. Your BS and Your OM dead and you are run out of town...I bet she's a guilt ridden mess.

-Caren

Not sure about this specific case, because we are now finding out more information. But I do have some general thoughts on that case, and on affairs in general.

First, if it wasnt an affair, that he was dating the first girl and then married the second...I have one question: why was she having sex with the man who at the time was not her husband? Now, I dont ask this question without being guilty of the same thing myself. But I do want to make a point here about the difference between deserving what we get, and asking for what we get. We know that if we do not have sex except with our spouse, then we should be good, right? No worry of STDs, affairs, [censored] children out there. In this case, she could have kept pure and waited to marry him and still be killed by him because there is obviously something mentally wrong with this guy. But in general, if you dont engage in activities that are only reserved for marriage, then you wont have to worry about the repercussions.

Second, on the idea that adultery does not deserve the punishment of death, I ask those out there...what does it deserve? In the Commonwealth of Virginia, adultery is against the law. Actually, any form of sexual activity that is not with a spouse is against the law. So, you go out and fornicate...or you go out and commit adultery...what should be the penalty?

Now some will say that the government has no business in our bedrooms. And when it comes to a married couple, that is true. but the government does have a vested interest in sexual relations outside a marriage. Why? Hmmmm, let's see. Billions of dollars spent on helping unwed mothers. Billions of dollars spent on providing support for families devastated by the break-up due to adultery. That only gives the government interest. We want the government out of ALL bedrooms? Then dont make the government responsible for cleaning up the mess we make when we do destructive behavior.

In God's eyes, adultery is punishable by death. All sin is...and no sin is greater than another. But on this planet, sins have to be punsihed in order to keep chaos from taking over. If we didnt punish thieves, then theft would be rampant. If we didnt punish murderers, then why not kill someone that offends us?

Adultery is the ONLY legal contract in the United States that does not provide sanctions for the person breaking the contract. If I sign a contract with my bank to pay back a loan it gave me, and I dont...it can garnish my wages or repossess my car. There is legal recourse. But, for adultery...where is the penalty? Oh, in Virginia...it just allows me to divorce quicker...I dont have to be separated a year. And a BS doesnt have to pay the cheating spouse alimony. But where is the penalty for breaking the law and breaking the contract that the two of you made, under the terms of until death do you part? In a legal sense, that contract has been reduced to meaning NOTHING!

And dont get me started about the OP? They get to break the law and walk away with no penalty at all. There used to be a way to sue them for alienation of affection. But even that has disappeared now.

Now, I know what emotionally and spiritually these things do to a person. I am not talking about that. I am talking legally. Our legal system is so screwed up. Here is an example outside of the adultery deal, to show you what I mean about how screwed up it is. A guy recently was charged with murder for beating his pregnant girlfriend's belly with a stick in order to kill the baby. In the process, she died. His argument is that he was not intending to murder his girlfriend...that the worse he did was assault her. But, he said he was trying to kill the baby.

now, let's get beyond the absurdity of his argument and get to a very profound question. Can the man be tried for the murder of the unborn baby? Why? Okay, he intended to end the life of the child that was in the mother's womb. But isnt that what abortion doctors do? What the heck is the difference? So if the mother WANTS the child dead, it isnt murder...but if she want the child alive then it is murder?

In a legal sense, this is nonsense and a mess. You cannot have it both ways. Either the child is protected by the laws of the land and recognized as a human being...thus if the child is killed, it is murder. Or, it is not a child protected by the laws of the land, that it is a fetus and part of the mother's body, and is considered no more important than if the man had cut off her ear.

We are losing it here people. In the last 30 years, our laws have gotten us in this mess. Abortion, no-fault divorce (never heard of a divorce where it was nobody's fault), pregnancies outside of marriage, etc. Our society is falling apart from the inside because of our collective selfishness. And ALL of those things I just mentioned fall directly on our kids. And we wonder what the next generation is going to be like.

Personally, I would love to see divorce done away with...except in the case of abuse or adultery. But ahnd-in-hand with that, adultery should be punishable by jail time and fine. Adultery is NOT a victimless crime. It has profound social and financial affects on society.

What is the punishment for adultery? Well, someone said it above...it should fit the crime. And adultery is a crime!! So, what should adultery be likened to. How about speeding? Maybe a $50 ticket? How about on the other end, and returning to the old days when adultery was a capital offense, punishable by death? Or is it somewhere in between?

I dont think that there is any argument that can be presented that you can say that adultery shouldnt be punished. But, what should the punishment be? Obviously, the WS broke a legal contract, and the OP helped. So, there should be legal sanctions against both. Since the BS is the agrieved party, he/she should have legal recourse to sue the OP for alienation of affection. And the WS? Well, I believe that if you cheat, you have left the marriage. And if you have left the marriage, you have no right to anything in the marriage. That means the kids, the furniture, the 401K...and of it. Added to that, by your illegal and immoral behavior, you should have to pay alimony and child support.

Yes, people...adultery and divorce IS THAT SERIOUS!! We have to stop kidding ourselves.

Now, there is also a way that the OP and the WS can get off without these penalties. How? It will all fall in the lap of the BS. If they decide to let the WS come home and forgive them (grace), then the sins of the OP and WS are forgiven. By the BS being the agrieved party, they should be the ones to have the power of the OP and WS being pardoned. After all, it is the BS that has been hurt by those two.

Again, I see adultery and divorce as crimes. Really, it is a kind of abuse. And the kids get abused the worse. Studies have shown that only the death of a child is worse than adultery in the emotional impact it has on a person. And we say that the two people that caused that kind of pain should get off scott-free?

Okay, hopefully I have made my point.

Also, one other final thing, while we are no longer under the Old Law, it is interesting what used to be a capital offense...and now we say it's nobody's business... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Leviticus 20:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Give the Israelites these instructions, which apply to those who are Israelites by birth as well as to the foreigners living among you. If any among them devote their children as burnt offerings to Molech, they must be stoned to death by people of the community. 3 I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, because they have defiled my sanctuary and profaned my holy name by giving their children to Molech. 4 And if the people of the community ignore this offering of children to Molech and refuse to execute the guilty parents, 5 then I myself will turn against them and cut them off from the community, along with all those who commit prostitution by worshiping Molech. 6 "If any among the people are unfaithful by consulting and following mediums or psychics, I will turn against them and cut them off from the community. 7 So set yourselves apart to be holy, for I, the Lord, am your God. 8 Keep all my laws and obey them, for I am the Lord, who makes you holy. 9 "All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. 10 "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. 11 If a man has intercourse with his father's wife, both the man and the woman must die, for they are guilty of a capital offense. 12 If a man has intercourse with his daughter-in-law, both must be put to death. They have acted contrary to nature and are guilty of a capital offense. 13 "The penalty for homosexual acts is death to both parties. They have committed a detestable act and are guilty of a capital offense. 14 If a man has intercourse with both a woman and her mother, such an act is terribly wicked. All three of them must be burned to death to wipe out such wickedness from among you. 15 "If a man has sexual intercourse with an animal, he must be put to death, and the animal must be killed. 16 If a woman approaches a male animal to have intercourse with it, she and the animal must both be put to death. Both must die, for they are guilty of a capital offense. 17 "If a man has sexual intercourse with his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, it is a terrible disgrace. Both of them must be publicly cut off from the community. Since the man has had intercourse with his sister, he will suffer the consequences of his guilt. 18 If a man has intercourse with a woman suffering from a hemorrhage,* both of them must be cut off from the community, because he exposed the source of her flow, and she allowed him to do it. 19 "If a man has sexual intercourse with his aunt, whether his mother's sister or his father's sister, he has violated a close relative. Both parties are guilty of a capital offense. 20 If a man has intercourse with his uncle's wife, he has violated his uncle. Both the man and woman involved are guilty of a capital offense and will die childless. 21 If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity. He has violated his brother, and the guilty couple will remain childless. 22 "You must carefully obey all my laws and regulations; otherwise the land to which I am bringing you will vomit you out. 23 Do not live by the customs of the people whom I will expel before you. It is because they do these terrible things that I detest them so much. 24 But I have promised that you will inherit their land, a land flowing with milk and honey. I, the Lord, am your God, who has set you apart from all other people. 25 "You must therefore make a distinction between ceremonially clean and unclean animals, and between clean and unclean birds. You must not defile yourselves by eating any animal or bird or creeping creature that I have forbidden. 26 You must be holy because I, the Lord, am holy. I have set you apart from all other people to be my very own. 27 "Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Proverbs 6:1 My child,* if you co-sign a loan for a friend or guarantee the debt of someone you hardly know-2 if you have trapped yourself by your agreement and are caught by what you said-3 quick, get out of it if you possibly can! You have placed yourself at your friend's mercy. Now swallow your pride; go and beg to have your name erased. 4 Don't put it off. Do it now! Don't rest until you do. 5 Save yourself like a deer escaping from a hunter, like a bird fleeing from a net. 6 Take a lesson from the ants, you lazybones. Learn from their ways and be wise! 7 Even though they have no prince, governor, or ruler to make them work, 8 they labor hard all summer, gathering food for the winter. 9 But you, lazybones, how long will you sleep? When will you wake up? I want you to learn this lesson: 10 A little extra sleep, a little more slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest-11 and poverty will pounce on you like a bandit; scarcity will attack you like an armed robber.
12 Here is a description of worthless and wicked people: They are constant liars, 13 signaling their true intentions to their friends by making signs with their eyes and feet and fingers. 14 Their perverted hearts plot evil. They stir up trouble constantly. 15 But they will be destroyed suddenly, broken beyond all hope of healing. 16 There are six things the Lord hates-no, seven things he detests:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">17 haughty eyes,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a lying tongue,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hands that kill the innocent,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">18 a heart that plots evil,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">feet that race to do wrong,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">19 a false witness who pours out lies,</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a person who sows discord among brothers.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">20 My son, obey your father's commands, and don't neglect your mother's teaching. 21 Keep their words always in your heart. Tie them around your neck. 22 Wherever you walk, their counsel can lead you. When you sleep, they will protect you. When you wake up in the morning, they will advise you. 23 For these commands and this teaching are a lamp to light the way ahead of you. The correction of discipline is the way to life. 24 These commands and this teaching will keep you from the immoral woman, from the smooth tongue of an adulterous woman. 25 Don't lust for her beauty. Don't let her coyness seduce you. 26 For a prostitute will bring you to poverty, and sleeping with another man's wife may cost you your very life. 27 Can a man scoop fire into his lap and not be burned? 28 Can he walk on hot coals and not blister his feet? 29 So it is with the man who sleeps with another man's wife. He who embraces her will not go unpunished. 30 Excuses might be found for a thief who steals because he is starving. 31 But if he is caught, he will be fined seven times as much as he stole, even if it means selling everything in his house to pay it back. 32 But the man who commits adultery is an utter fool, for he destroys his own soul. 33 Wounds and constant disgrace are his lot. His shame will never be erased. 34 For the woman's husband will be furious in his jealousy, and he will have no mercy in his day of vengeance. 35 There is no compensation or bribe that will satisfy him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Finally.... </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Malachi 2:13 Here is another thing you do. You cover the Lord's altar with tears, weeping and groaning because he pays no attention to your offerings, and he doesn't accept them with pleasure. 14 You cry out, "Why has the Lord abandoned us?" I'll tell you why! Because the Lord witnessed the vows you and your wife made to each other on your wedding day when you were young. But you have been disloyal to her, though she remained your faithful companion, the wife of your marriage vows. 15 Didn't the Lord make you one with your wife? In body and spirit you are his.* And what does he want? Godly children from your union. So guard yourself; remain loyal to the wife of your youth. 16 "For I hate divorce!" says the Lord, the God of Israel. "It is as cruel as putting on a victim's bloodstained coat," says the Lord Almighty. "So guard yourself; always remain loyal to your wife."17 You have wearied the Lord with your words. "Wearied him?" you ask. "How have we wearied him?" You have wearied him by suggesting that the Lord favors evildoers since he does not punish them. You have wearied him by asking, "Where is the God of justice?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didnt make the rules...so no flaming arrows at Mortarman!! If there is any problem with this...you know Whom to take it up with. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Malachi 3:6 "I am the Lord, and I do not change."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In His arms.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Oh yeah, and for my fellow Southerners from the great state of Texas.....

We here in Virginia take capital punishment very seriously also. As a matter of fact, per capita, we execute more people than any state in the Union. So we Virginians stand with you!!!

I am sure that justice will be taken care of in Texas!!

In His arms.

<Standing Ovation>

Great post MM.

Mortarman,

I will go you one better...up where I live there are laws on the books that make cohabitation a viable option. Co habitation laws that facilitate setting up and maintaining unmarried families.

This is fine when there are no children involved but where I live married couples are like dinosaurs...and unsual outdated oddity. H and I are considered old fashioned and out of date because we actually bothered to get married.

And the couples we know who did not get married are on their second, third, fourth partners, have children with different fathers.

It is very sad and I think societies rules have changed so much that marriage has become almost a mockery. And even of those who DO bother to get married...divorce so EASY now that the rates have sky rocketed.

And our WHOLE system is paying for it. The schools are having alot of trouble controlling the children....because many kids live in turmoil and are getting bounced from one household to another. All the children in the classrooms pay for this because the teachers are spending WAYYYYYYYY too much time controlling the kids from dysfunctional situations.

I do not think that divorce should be outlawed nor should cohabitation be outlawed. But I do not think the laws should facilitate these choices either.

The laws should be on the side of getting married and STAYING married unless some sort of abuse is involved.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

I can do you one better than that even.

Waaaay back when I was in high school..girls were getting pregnant out of wedlock intentionally to gain the gov't benefits.

Don't want to obey your parents? Just go get knocked up..you can have a free apt..a free ride through college, and state support for food, childcare..etc.

Sad. I imagine it's worse now.

Noodle

Mortarman -

Any thoughts on Jesus's words in Luke 6: 27 -37?

Also, I was just thinking that in ancient times, Christians were thrown to the lions for sport and entertainment - so, just because it was done in ancient times makes it a good idea?

Just food for thought,

God bless,

Rose

Daisy,

I here ya!! It is a mess. But I do not agree that cohabitation is no problem. Neither does God.

My point is that He made a lot of rules for life, we chose to do it our way...and then bemoan the fact that things havent worked out like we planned. Go figure!!

His rules are very clear...sex only with your spouse. Divorce only for sexual immorality, abuse and the like (there is a list in the New Testament).

So, cohabitation is ALWAYS illegal. And divorce has just a few reasons why it could be legal.

Everything else is an abomination to Him. And living life the way it was not intended. And continues to help with the slippery slope.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> .

Don't want to obey your parents? Just go get knocked up..you can have a free apt..a free ride through college, and state support for food, childcare..etc.
Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That goes on all the time up here...everytime I go to the village I see several 15 -18 year olds pushing baby carriages up and down the street. And NO they are NOT babysitting. I know most of them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> They get knocked up...dump the dad...live with a working BF while collecting welfare...get knocked up again ect...

Where I live the Catholic church is the main religion (do NOT flame me...this is NOT the churches doing IMHO...it is the culture I live in which I am about to explain)
In the Catholic church you cannot marry more than once. So to get around this and STILL keep their options open people choose to live together. This happens ALL the time...this is what my H wanted to do but I insisted on marriage.

I wanted a family but did want to have children out of wedlock. I am from East Tennessee origninally and in MY culture that is simply NOT done...not by well brought up young ladies anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

But then I go `home` and meet up with extended family members who are on there 3rd or 4th marriages. And that is okay in my culture. You can not live with someone before you are married but you can get married as often as you want. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

And I think to myself...sheesh...human nature is human nature...and people will always find ways around the rules to be selfish and irresponsible. It does not matter what culture you are from.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

Mortarman,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Adultery is the ONLY legal contract in the United States that does not provide sanctions for the person breaking the contract. If I sign a contract with my bank to pay back a loan it gave me, and I dont...it can garnish my wages or repossess my car. There is legal recourse. But, for adultery...where is the penalty? Oh, in Virginia...it just allows me to divorce quicker...I dont have to be separated a year. And a BS doesnt have to pay the cheating spouse alimony. But where is the penalty for breaking the law and breaking the contract that the two of you made, under the terms of until death do you part? In a legal sense, that contract has been reduced to meaning NOTHING! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awesome post!!!

Rose,

First of all, the Christians thrown to Lions had nothing to do with God. neither did Hitler killing the Jews in modern times. My point on that was that God's rules state what marriage is supposed to be, and where sex is allowed.

I looked at that passage in Luke also. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Luke 6:27 "But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 28 Pray for the happiness of those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don't try to get them back. 31 Do for others as you would like them to do for you.
32 "Do you think you deserve credit merely for loving those who love you? Even the sinners do that! 33 And if you do good only to those who do good to you, is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much! 34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even sinners will lend to their own kind for a full return. 35 "Love your enemies! Do good to them! Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. 36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so true. But, without digressing into a whole theological debate on grace and forgiveness, let me make a point here. We as Christians are called to forgive. But that does not mean there are not penalties in this life. Forgiveness does not mean that the penalties are lifted.

Want an example? Okay. Jeffrey Dahmer killed people and ate them. He was sentenced to life in prison. While in prison, he excepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Now, if this is true, then God has forgiven him of his sins. And he is in heaven today. But, did that save Jeffrey Dahmer from his life in prison, or his brutal beating death while there? Nope. Even if he had not of been killed, just because God forgave him doesnt mean he does without the punishment.

Another one? A single guy goes out and fornicates. He catches herpes. Then he decides that what he did was wrong, and he is only going to have sex while in marriage. He is flying right now, and has been forgiven by God. But, does that make the herpes go away? Nope.

Forgiveness does not mean that the penalty goes away. We dont get into heaven because God wiped away our sins. That would make God unholy! No, those sins had to be paid for...ALL sins have to be paid for. In the case of the Christian, we had someone else pay for our sins. For the heathen, they pay for their own.

I was watching a news show a few years ago, and was amazed as they interviewed this couple who lost their son to a murderer. This couple had forgiven the murderer and had even gone to visit him in prison, and to pray for him. If I remember right, they even helped lead him to the Lord. When interviewed, they asked the father how he could forgive this guy. And He said it was what jesus called him to do. But they asked him a very key question. "So do you think he should still be executed?" And the father said yes. He said that was the law of the land and the punishment for what this man had done.

Grace does not mean people get off scott-free. Grace and forgiveness is releasing the person from vengeance...and vengeance only belongs to God.

In His arms.

Mortarman -

I agree about salvation, grace, and forgiveness, and I totally agree and understand about paying earthly consequences for breaking the law and for sinning.

However, was Jesus breaking the law when he convinced the crowds not to stone the woman who was caught in adultery? (John 8) O.k., I guess he did pay earthly consequences for that...but was his breaking the law the same as sinning (we're told he never sinned)? Maybe I'm getting too far out on a limb here...

Anyway, I'm not up on the history about this, but wasn't another reason the Christians were thrown to the lions is that they were considered to be breaking the law by not worshipping the King (or Emperor, or whoever)?

My point is just that rules (such as stoning people for adultery) aren't necessarily validated just because they were sanctioned in ancient times.

God bless,

Rose

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Rose55 ]</small>

Was going to write something else and changed my mind. Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Rose,

Good post!! Let me answer your questions...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However, was Jesus breaking the law when he convinced the crowds not to stone the woman who was caught in adultery? (John 8) O.k., I guess he did pay earthly consequences for that...but was his breaking the law the same as sinning (we're told he never sinned)? Maybe I'm getting too far out on a limb here...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jesus didnt break the law, because breaking the law would have been sinning. What did the law say? Why were the crowds convinced? The law said that in order to ston the woman, you had to also stone the man. Where was the man? Without the man there also, it was the crowd that was breaking the law. Also, He stated that whomever was without sin, should cast the first stone. He wasnt talking about being sinless. He was talking about stoning this woman for adultery, if they had also committed adultery. He then wrote in the sand...and they left. What did He write? He was writing the names of these guys and the women they had committed adultery with.
That is why He said to the woman when they all left "Where are your accusers?" There was no one there to accuse her, no one left to testify against her being caught in adultery. Thus, He found no fault in her also. So, you see, Jesus didnt break the law...they were breaking the law...and He showed them that they were.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, I'm not up on the history about this, but wasn't another reason the Christians were thrown to the lions is that they were considered to be breaking the law by not worshipping the King (or Emperor, or whoever)? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. This is what got Jesus crucified. Let me give you an analogy. In the military, it is against the law to disobey a direct order. We can go to jail for that. But, if the commander ordered us to hunt down all the children in the town and murder them, what do we do? Do we disobey that order, and break the law? Or do we kill the children and break the law? No, instead, we are bound to disobey that order because it was an illegal order. And we could go to jail for not disobeying that order.

In Rome, the Christians wqould not worship Caesar. That meant they were breaking the law. But if they worshipped Caesar, then they would also be breaking the law...God's law. So, what do they do? Well, Rome's law was illegal, because God's law ALWAYS supercedes man's law. So, if there is a law that man has, and it is contrary to God's law, which one should you obey. Well, of course, man's law is illegal in that case.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point is just that rules (such as stoning people for adultery) aren't necessarily validated just because they were sanctioned in ancient times.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ancient times has nothing to do with it. God's laws are always right, no matter what time it is. I wasnt talking about ancient laws of man. I was talking about the unerring will of God. Like I showed in my previous post, God says that He does not change. He was the same in the Garden with Adam as He is today.

In His arms.

MM,

The reason I struggle so mightily with the Bible as the word of God is because it's so full of contradiction and it's been rewritten hundreds of times. I wish with all my heart that all the answers were clearly written there, but.....the more I study religious history and the text itself...the more discouraged I become and the more questions I have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I feel very lost in this regard. I've had folks before quote scripture and say SEE this is where it clearly states XXXX....and I read it and find no clarity at all, or can point to another passage that says something wholly different. *sigh*

It is interesting that adultery was considered a sin for women. But concubinage (women as breeders) and polygyny (men could have many wives, but a woman only one husband) were acceptable. The capturing of women in battle and forcing them to be wives and levirate marriage (if a man's brother died without heirs, the man had to marry his dead brother's wife and have children by her to perpetuate the deceased brother's name) were also seemingly acceptable biblical practices. There is inherent inequity in the laws, as things which hold for men do not hold for women. For example, according to biblical law, a man was permitted many wives, and also concubines (which one could equate with either mistresses or concubines). The only way a man could be an adulterer, under biblical law, was if he had relationships with a MARRIED women (i.e. another man's property). Relations with any unmarried women did not constitute adultery for a man. On the other hand, a married women was an adulteress if she had relations with any man not her husband. However, it seems that an adulterous woman was punished, and her husband was then forced to divorce her. An adulterous man, however, could remain married to his wife with impunity.....all very confusing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

In recent history, there has been a huge movement to move away from criminalizing sexual morality. Is that a good idea? Honestly, it's hard to say. Even in Virginia, the last time this law was enforced...the man only paid a 250 dollar fine....pfft! Here is an outstanding article about adultery law for anyone who is interested:

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20031216.html

Also....here's an article from MSNBC...about "legislating sex"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6620768/