Patriot,

I have been thinking all day about your analogy.

Trying to see if there is another way of looking at it that I missed in the shock and horror of reading it/accepting it at face value.

Do you mean..that because people die in car accidents..buying your wife a car implicates you in any accident she may have? That would sort of relate to the original story [which has been pretty well abandoned].

Let me give you another analogy..hopefully one that is more clear cut to demonstrate the difference between the two.

When I said that having an A is playing russian roulette with the lives of others..I was drawing from an image in my head that relates to STDs.

Lets say..that you find a gun somewhere unexpected..you pick it up..and because you are not thinking clearly..you decide it might be fun to play the game.

Now..you didn't LOAD the gun..you don't KNOW that there are definitely bullets in the gun..but you know that there certainly COULD be bullets, and that pulling the trigger IS taking the chance that it will fire with live ammo.

But you are in denial..you are in fog, you WANT to play the game, you are excited by the notion..you pull the trigger..repeatedly..aimed at your wife..who had ZERO choice in the matter..and furthermore was deceived about the entire issue. She has her eyes closed and her hands out awaiting the gift you have promised to misdirect her.

Now..whether the gun was loaded or not..whether she is killed..or maimed..or disfigured..you pulled that trigger with FULL KNOWLEDGE that it MIGHT.

So..in my book..no matter the outcome..you are guilty. That makes YOU directly responsible for any harm that MIGHT have resulted..whether it did or not. It makes you guilty of attempted murder. Manslaughter at the very least.

It does not matter if the disease can be managed..it matters that you pulled the trigger.


In your analogy, one I'm sure you would prefer to embrace, the responsibility is several steps removed.

Unless you knew there to be fault in the car that you failed to disclose..she made her own decisions. That is just life. Many variables outside of your knowledge or control.

To tie that in to the story at hand..the elevation of risk is that of being intimate with someone who you really do not know all that well..allowing them access to your home and children when they are CLEARLY involved in some questionable activities to say the least.

Huh..every BS here is guilty of the same..and are we taking a risk? Absolutely we are. WSs are individuals who are OUT OF CONTROL..their lives are spinning the drain..they are not making rational coherant decisions..they can't. In order to preserve their A protective lies they MUST be in a state of denial and illusion.

The choices that we make..particularly as BSs..DO put us in a position of elevated risk..we are choosing to live with people who have demonstrated that they are mentally unwell..that they are untrustworthy, and that they are unwilling to realize the damage that their actions and choices are causing their supposed loved ones.

When my H came home..I had removed all guns from the house..the children slept with me and I locked the door. I slept with a phone by the bed.

If he had really wanted to harm us none of these measures would have been enough..I know that now and I knew it then.

WSs are not the only people capable of self delusion. Nonetheless..had something happened, my childrens blood would have been on my hands as well as his.


Noodle

Patriot,

Lets try this.

You have a daughter who is married. Your daughter and her husband seem happy. After several years of married life, one day she just doesn't feel really well, she pays a visit to her gyno and they say all is well.

She goes along for another year or so and has an episode and passes out at work. She calls you, her dad, and has you take her to the ER. You wait and the doctor comes out hours later and tells you after extensive tests your daughter has stage 3 cervical cancer and it's critcal.

Turns out her husband had shared diseases with her, did not tell her, and because she was asymptomatic it escalated to cancer.

What do you think dad, is it your daughter's fault for driving that car her husband bought her??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I mean, after all dad, it should be "manageable". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Ok.. so I guess the horse is still alive...

Logic? Where has been this outpouring of logic of which you speak?

First it was the OW's fault for herself getting killed. Then it was "Hey, affairs should be a crime." Then, of course the discussions of that interesting point. At some point someone fired off with an affair is not an affair if your not married(which, interestly enough, is the very definition of it). Then the discussion of "well.. you deserve what you get for having sex outside of marriage." On that one I want just ONE person here to stand up and say they never had sex outside of marriage.... and for all those that did, please explain to me why you aren't serving your sentence for sinning in this world. Oh. I am sure someone will say, "But I have served my sentence." To that I say, "Interesting... how come your not dead? Seems to be the going rate for affairs these days." Indeed, a sarcastic remark, but please listen. I will say it once more.

To Mortarman: I simply appreciate that you took the time to provide mountains of information to back up your points, though I did not agree with all of them.

To Noodle: I am grateful that you tried to see past the frivolity of the analogy and look for something deeper... cause you almost got there.

To Resilient: First, I sympathize that you contracted cancer, for that is tragic. That you captured it from a "loved one" is an atrocity. It is obviously an emotional issue with you, and I am apologetic for that as well.

I made one point, and one point only. Life, though fragile, is a beautiful thing. It is to be revered and cherished. Enjoyed to the fullest. Billowy white clouds and all that. Imagine the sunset you will see tonight. Imagine the meal you will eat tomorrow. You know these things can be beautiful. Now imagine forever. Maybe you can. Maybe you can't. It doesn't matter, really because you aren't there.

This poor woman and her children are. Their lives are over. They won't be posting here, like you and I are. They won't be exchanging ideas with colleagues. They will no longer go to the corner store and get a candy bar to eat with a movie. If no simple things in life mean anything to you, then why are you here? I believe that by disrespecting the dead(though I am sure that is up to interpretation) you have disrespected life.

That anyone would remember this post was started because of a tragedy would be seemingly monumental at this point, being as we have reduced a person's life and death to, at best, justice.

What part did I miss?

By the way, I have only slept with my H.

Noodle

Patriot92,
When I got married my husband and I were both virgins.

My best friend and her husband were both virgins when they married as well, and since they are stil married, have never had sex w anyone outside of marriage.

I have a male friend who is 28, and is actually quite a lady-attractor, but is not married and has never had sex. Imagine that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Daisy37:
<strong> I think changing the laws for divorce caused by infidelity would stop many predatroy OW`s. If they thought that the MM was going to lose EVERYTHING and have to start over from scratch many of them would think twice.

I do believe that many OP`s are motivated by greed...they see the fancy car...the nice house...the burgeoning bank accounts and think to themselves "I want some of that...even if it`s only half it still looks good to me"

Not every OP is like this but of the ones who ARE changing the laws would help to remedy this. NO willing/greedy OP...NO A.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due respect Daisy........I don't think I could disagree more with your post above. WTF does a "predatory OP" have to do with any of this if OUR SPOUSES remained faithful? DO you think "laws" against infidelity will stop this? LMAO respectfully at this thought. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

THE FACTS are that there is ONLY an affair if the WS "allows" it to happen. It doesn't matter how willing or greedy the OP is, it ALL boils down to the WS "inviting" the OP in to do this.

I think you are letting your feelings (justifiably so perhaps) and anger against YOUR husbands OW cloud your thoughts here.

Then again, this is just my opinion.

Cheers <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Patriot wrote:
Then the discussion of "well.. you deserve what you get for having sex outside of marriage." On that one I want just ONE person here to stand up and say they never had sex outside of marriage.... and for all those that did, please explain to me why you aren't serving your sentence for sinning in this world.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Standing up and saying "I HAVE NEVER HAD SEX OUTSIDE MY MARRIAGE".

Patriot .. I see that you're new here so I'm wondering if you know that there are most likely hundreds if not thousands of MB members here (BS) that have NOT had sex outside of their marriages.

In fact, the percentage is high that they haven't participated in adultery but their spouse has is their very premise for being a member here.

I'm just curious, why do you feel everyone has sex outside their marriage?

Jo

<small>[ February 24, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

Lemonman: I do understand what you are saying, and for the most part I agree with you. However: some OP are *definitely* predatory and will insinuate themselves into the relationship on a gradual basis. A naive, arrogant, or just plain stupid WS will often let them do this and not realize the poison that is slowly being injected into the marriage. Finally, once the cover is blown, the damage is so extensive that some marriages don't recover -- which is what the OP intended all along.

I am not taking one bit of the responsibility off of the WS. I am just saying that the WS doesn't have to up and leave the BS for the damage to be done. Just getting into the habit of something like off-site "business meetings" that the BS doesn't need to know about can cause so much damage to the marriage that it does not recover -- and plenty of OP count on this.

My own husband was like this. He honestly thought that if I found out he was sneaking off with the girls for long lunches, I'd be a little upset -- as if he'd bounced a check or something -- and he didn't want that so he just made sure I didn't know. He thought that since things were otherwise very good at home, he could tell himself these were all "business meetings" and no harm would be done. Hey, everybody does it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

He learned, finally, that I would be waaaaaaaaay more than "a little upset" by this behavior. And it is starting to dawn on him now that these trashy girls he hooked up with knew what they were doing and recognized a big sucker/sugar daddy when they saw one. His failure to protect himself and our marriage nearly cost him everything.

Is he responsible? Absolutely. Were they predatory? Absolutely. They just luuvvvvvvved him but treated me like dirt to my face.

Male thinking with small head instead of big head + female seeing fun guy and good provider = a carload of damage that can easily destroy a marriage, even if he doesn't move out and leave his wife for one of them.

They are BOTH responsible. NEITHER party should be excused in any way.
Mulan

ugh...

Misunderstanding. Obfuscation. Oh, and nice reference to me being 'new'... as though it were to imply I should shut up and pay attention to the wise old wizards....

Where as I attempted to have a discussion in reference to the disrespecting of the dead, or ignoring of them at their expense... I have failed.

Fine. As Froz pointed out to me, what is the purpose of my participating in this discussion and how is it bettering our marriage.

Touche.

So, I will be going back to my posts where I was finding answers and gaining information that focus on the recovery of my marriage. It is too bad this person was killed. It didn't have to be that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by patriot92:
ugh...

Misunderstanding. Obfuscation. Oh, and nice reference to me being 'new'... as though it were to imply I should shut up and pay attention to the wise old wizards....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I meant no disrespect by stating you being new, Patriot. My apologies if it was taken that way.

My intent was to address what now seems to have been a misunderstanding in communication regarding sex as a single person (aka outside of marriage) as opposed to sex with others while married.

I see by similar responses that others have made the same mistake. So, no worries.

Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Susan,

The stastics are about people no matter where they live may vary but a marriage commitment is the same here or on the other end of the earth. The difference is the standpoint of each individual. If you were the BS, you may have a different view from the WS or OP.

What is consistent are the marriages resulting from an A. Very few survive. Most that appear to survive are riddled with guilt. After all what made that next M was based on the loss of love and trust with the first spouses.

My question to you is, was the pain caused to either of the Xspouses and the family worth your M? What are you doing to ensure your M will not suffer the same consquences?

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">l'm not too sure what this has got to do with the original post but l'm always upfront so my answers can be found in posts on other sections....does the pain caused to either of the Xspouses and the family worth our marriage?...of course our marriage is worth everything to us,we will spend the rest of our lives where we should be which is together,our children are seeing parents who love each other and how love should be rather than parents who just stay together unhappily and transmit this to the children,our ex spouses have each accepted and admitted that their marriages with us were not the best and reacte to that in their own ways...l think if we could have helped my husbands ex to accept the situation sooner it would have helped he but otherwise 6 yrs on life is great.As to what we are doing to ensure our marriage does not end up going bad?...we talk,we share,we discuss,we admit all of our feelings about anything and everything...we do all the things that were lacking in our old worlds .our previous relationships ended because we were growing and changing in a different way to our partners whilst we were all shaping and honing ourselves,people don't just reach 18 and stop evolving as people and so decisions made on who you want to marry at any age untill you have matured around 40-45 on average is always at risk of each of the partners evolving away from the other causing friction etc. and this where people make decisions what they want to do, some choose to stay ,maybe on religious grounds maybe out of fear,habit or hope that the other partner will change, others choose to go,often acting by lust or mistaken views of love,most fall by the wayside as it is a hard line to follow and the reward has to be very great....l'm lucky,so is my husband,we met each other and both realised we should be together,both of us knew we couldn't turn the clock back to before we met and if for any reason we couldn't be together we would have left our spouses anyhow as you just can't live a lie when it is exposed to you..it was not fair on our spouses as well as ourselves.....anyhow hopefully all questions answered

Sue

Mortarman, I moved our threadjack here.

Mys

Sue, yes, folks do outgrow each other. It happened to you before and is likely to happen to you again. And unfortunately, in your situation, since you are married to a cheater the chances of adultery in your marriage is quite great. What he did with you, he will do to you. Easy come, easy go. Marriages started with affairs have about a 3% chance of surviving because the partners are about as trustworthy as alley cats in heat.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">where we should be which is together,our children are seeing parents who love each other and how love should be rather than parents who just stay together unhappily and transmit this to the children</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Children are always devastated and damaged by divorce and adultery. Children don't give a damn if you are "in love" or are "happy," they care about THEIR HAPPINESS. Their happiness comes from being with THEIR PARENTS, who love THEM, not from seeing their parent with some affair partner they picked up off the street.

Please don't delude yourself into ever thinking that affairs and divorce are ever good for children. Children from BAD marriages do better psychologically than children from broken homes.

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

While I understand the dynamics of the situation in question were a bit unique, I am troubled by what I see as a huge double standard in the responses.

It seems many are are perfectly willing to say the OP deserves any evil visited upon them simply because they were engaged in an affair.

Yet, how is this different from saying the BS got what was coming to them because they were a crappy spouse?

This much like the assertion that a woman who dresses provocatively should expect to be raped. Or perhaps the gay man who contracts AIDS deserves the horrific death he most certainly will experience?

Using this logic, it could be extended to imply that murder of an immoral person is somehow more accpetable than murder of a moral person? Should the perp get less jail time for it? After all, the immoral person should have known that murder was more likely in their situation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Evil comes in many forms...some of the attitudes I've seen expressed here are just plain mean.

BTW...I've seen a lot of Old Testament law tossed around here. The only thing I can say to that is...you either LIVE IT ALL, or you don't hold yourself and others to ANY of it. You don't get to pick and choose.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm not about to stone my surly teenagers or throw away my clothes made of mixed (and unnatural) fabrics.

Low

Oh, and BTW, I believe women who do not wear their burkas in public must take some responsibility for the moral decline of our society as well...

<tongue firmly in cheek>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong> Oh, and BTW, I believe women who do not wear their burkas in public must take some responsibility for the moral decline of our society as well...

<tongue firmly in cheek> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I throw a tomato at him??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>
THE FACTS are that there is ONLY an affair if the WS "allows" it to happen. It doesn't matter how willing or greedy the OP is, it ALL boils down to the WS "inviting" the OP in to do this.

LM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemmoman...it takes two to tango. It`s not always the WS who does the inviting...sometimes yes but sometimes no.

I do not think changing the laws would stop all infidelity...I am not that naive...

But I do think it would stop some of it.

I told my FWS about this thread and I asked him his opinion on this matter.

Of course initially he got his fur rubbed the wrong way...jumped on his high horse and said..."So IF this were to have been applied in our situation you would have taken everything...all for one ONS...you have got to be kidding" It was an ONS and a longterm EA <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> but I digress...


So then I turned the question around and asked him "Suppose I meet an OM...fall madly in love...walk out the door with him and then YOU have to give me HALF of everthing we own...how would that sit with you?"

Put that way H changed his tune. "Of course I shouldn`t have to give you half if you are the one who has decided you want out. It would be completely unfair for YOU to walk away from our family...set up housekeeping with an OM...and STILL get half of everything"

So I said "Well honey as the laws stand now...I could do just that"

Here`s the thing...I think MOST but not ALL people are are NOT greedy. I think that MOST but not ALL BS`s would still choose the remain in the M, give the WS a second chance. I don`t think that just because a law like this would be on the books that all of a sudden all of the BS`s would choose to walk away with everything. I think most BS`s would still choose to remain in the M and work things out if possible.

But the option of being able to take everything could be used as leverage to end the A. It could also be used to prevent SOME A`s from happening in the first place.

In case you are interested...had I had that option I would not have exercised it. As a matter of fact when divorce was discussed I offered to walk away with nothing. I didn`t want even half. I just wanted to be happy. Money alone does not make me happy.

But that`s just me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong>
It seems many are are perfectly willing to say the OP deserves any evil visited upon them simply because they were engaged in an affair.

Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don`t think that...

I don`t think Lisa deserved to die...but that does not negate that fact that she made some very bad decisions. By hooking up with this man she put herself and her son in harms way.

BS`s do suffer ALOT of guilt. We do feel like deserved what we got. Now some BS`s eventually do get over this and forgive themselves...but some do not.

I do think my own bad choices led to my H`s A`s. Just as much as his bad choices did.

I own my part in it...I didn`t deserve for my H to have an A...but I am still partly to blame for it.

Lisa owns her part in what happened too. It doesn`t make it right...she didn`t deserve to die...but she does own part of the responsability for the unfortunate ultimate outcome.

LowOrbit,

Without getting too serious here, I just wanted to respond because what you just posted was directed at some of the things I wrote, and I think you may have a misperception of what I was saying in some cases.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I understand the dynamics of the situation in question were a bit unique, I am troubled by what I see as a huge double standard in the responses.

It seems many are are perfectly willing to say the OP deserves any evil visited upon them simply because they were engaged in an affair.

Yet, how is this different from saying the BS got what was coming to them because they were a crappy spouse?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I used a great example of this when I talked about the woman who walks in SouthEast Washington at 3am in a cocktail dress, alone...and $2500 in her purse. Now, the subsequent robbery, rape, and murder are the fault of the thieves, rapists and murderers. There is no doubt about that. But, is she not culpable for what happened? did she not set the environment for which this happened? Did she use her head? No. She wasnt smart. did she get what she deserved? Nope. Did she get what happens when you dont use your head? Unfortunately, yes.

Is the BS responsible for the affair? Nope...that sin sits in the lap of the WS and OP. Is the BS culpable on most cases for what happened? Yes. did the BS deserve to have this visited upon them? Nope. But, as Dr. Harley says, if you ignore the things that keep the marriage thriving, these things can and often do happen.

Is the gay person who catches HIV deserving of a horrific death? Well, I hate to see anyone suffer. Did they know that by engaging in risky behavior that they could get this? Yes. So, are they culpable? Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using this logic, it could be extended to imply that murder of an immoral person is somehow more accpetable than murder of a moral person? Should the perp get less jail time for it? After all, the immoral person should have known that murder was more likely in their situation...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Less jail time...no. Should we waste a lot of time feeling sorry for someone that new better? No. it is like the HIV thing. I hate to see anyone suffer. But I am more concerned about the suffering of the innocent. A child that catches HIV in the womb, that is a tragedy. A homosexual man that engages in risky behavior and catches HIV...well, all I can see is someone that knew better. But I believe that all crimes should be punished the same no matter who they are done against.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Evil comes in many forms...some of the attitudes I've seen expressed here are just plain mean.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mean? Maybe. In some cases. But evil, in whatever form it comes in, should be held in contempt. It should never be excused, nor coddled. Evil should always be exposed, and always be shunned.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW...I've seen a lot of Old Testament law tossed around here. The only thing I can say to that is...you either LIVE IT ALL, or you don't hold yourself and others to ANY of it. You don't get to pick and choose.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true. And as a Christian, I am not bound by the Law of the Old Testament. But.....the Law is good. Jesus didnt do away with the Law, He fulfilled it. So, we should also in following Him, fulfill it. Do we do it all the time? nope. That is why there is repentence. Have I committed evil acts? Sure. Will I do them again? Sure. When I do, should I meet the punishment due for those acts? Absolutely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know about you guys, but I'm not about to stone my surly teenagers or throw away my clothes made of mixed (and unnatural) fabrics.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one is saying to stone our kids...but the Law that says they honor their mother and father still applies. Which means, God still holds them responsible for doing so, and they receive punishment for not doing so. If my kids dont honor my wife, I am not going to ston them. But in some cases, I think after they have been punished, they WISH they had gotten stoned!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The Law is good. God said He never changes. While we no longer stone adulterers...I do believe that no punishment at all is an abomination and is causing great problems in our society. There must be consequences for breaking the law.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, is she not culpable for what happened? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she is not.

True she may not have done all she could to have ensured her own safety, but no, what happened to her is NOT her fault.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Law is good. God said He never changes. While we no longer stone adulterers...I do believe that no punishment at all is an abomination and is causing great problems in our society. There must be consequences for breaking the law.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It comes down to how you view the purpose of "punishment and consequences". Should punishment be retirbutive or should it be restorative? Do we punish the wrongdoer to restore them or do we do it to satisfy our collective need for retribution?

It's in this fundamental question that the arguments for and against capital punishment are couched. I happen to be one who believes in attempting to restore one who strays because that is the example set by our Lord. He came to seek and save. Those who are condemned are condemned already by their own actions...they need no help from us.

Capital punishment quite clearly eliminates any possibility of ever restoring that individual, and may very well prevent them from coming to a place in their lives where they can accept Christ. So called "capital" offences are not beyond God's forgiveness. Neither should they be beyond ours.

I believe prisons are only necessary to ensure that the rest of us are protected from the problem individual while his behavior is corrected. Longer sentences for more serious crimes are reflective of the work it will take to correct the problems in that person AND of the danger their behavior represents to us all.

I agree with you that we SHOULD be mindful of the spirit of the Law...it's clear that God hates adultery. However, we should deal with adulterers in a way that helps correct the problem and restores the individuals. Much of what is written in Leviticus was written in the context of a life and death situation for the Israelites and was necessary for the survival of their people. We must ask ourselves what is appropriate in light of our situation.

I do not believe that fear of punishment deters "crimes of passion". Strong laws against adultery would do little more than clog courts and fill up prisons. People who are going to commit adultery AREN'T THINKING about consequences. Stronger laws would have the affect of destroying families who would have otherwise been recoverable but putting spouses and parents in jail. You cannot convince me that a parent in jail strengthens a family. Positive legal consequences will be applied whether the adulterer is repentant or not.

Therefore, yes, we acknowledge that God hates adultery and we WORK VERY HARD to ensure people have skills to make their marriages work. This will be FAR MORE EFFECTIVE than putting adulterers in prison.

I understand exactly when you say you have less sympathy for those who place themselves unnecessarily in harm's way. We are all allowed to feel however we want to FEEL about the perp and victims, but the law must be applied consistently and fairly. I would loathe to convict a man who murders the drug dealer that hooks his children. But, if the evidence is clear, I must convict.

Low

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: LowOrbit ]</small>