Hello,

For background reading, please read:

Bomb has been dropped!:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=036838

Help - First MC meeting:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi...pic&f=37&t=036970&p=2#000022

I am obviously not doing PLAN A properly: what I think I am doing wrong?

- I don't know where the A stands because H works with OW. Supposedly, OW and OW's H are seeing IC to help them with their separation - source H (I know this is not very dependable). As far as ending the R with the OW - it is out of the question for H. He cannot see life without OW. So, as far as doing anything to end R with OW, it seems to me it is amounting to "harassment" on my part by asking H to consider putting "distance" with OW long enough for H to look at our R. It seems I need to stop doing that - so, what do I do? Don't discuss the OW? Don't discuss his desire to work out a deal for separation? This seems to me to be "avoiding" the problem, with a "big elephant" in the middle of the kitchen and trying to ignore it - it seems to me that will only make it grow - or force H to impulsevely do anything to break away - and we will all be worst off for it!

I have discussed with H my part in the M that contributed to where we are - H's reaction - too little, too late. Both fell asleep on the gaz pedal and there is nothing that can be done now. H admits to faults, I admit to faults. H's reaction: it's OK - we're human and have made mistakes. Let's accept them and move on - in different directions. Always said, when one of us wanted out of M - the other would not hold back. H wants "freedom". So, so much for that discussion. My attempts at trying to meet EN even if I got them right? H is not "there" - therefore, rejection is the standard to my attempts.

All I have left is work on myself? Not to get depressed, process the reality of our situation. ??? Imagine myself on my own?? (I really don't want to go there for fear of being pulled into putting energy in that direction). Try real hard to focus on the kids. But in the back of my mind, all this seems all a way of avoiding the "real" problem. Then one day, I will have to wake up and the fall will be harder.

Again, I do feel I am doing way too much thinking and not allowing myself "to feel" my feelings, not validating them. I am seem to push them down, then once in a while they come up, and I push them down. Don't know what to do with my feelings. Am I afraid of my own feelings?

Lunamare

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> H wants "freedom". So, so much for that discussion.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Call his bluff.

Set him free.

Open the door and tell him:

"I love you and I thought we would spend the rest of our lives together. But you say you want to be free from our life together. I am not your jailer. You are free to go. I cannot live with you while you feel trapped. Please return to me only when you desire to be my full-time husband again. I will miss you. I will not miss this chaos and confusion."

Call his bluff. Let him go.

Pep

Please see my reply on your previous thread.

Also, I think many of your questions will be answered when you read SAA. Let us know when you have done this. Another really good read is Private Lies, by Frank Pittman.

Briefly, assume the affair is ongoing. While it's on going, ANY reasoning you attempt with your H is futile. Do not think of him as a rational person. He's been abducted by aliens and had his brains scrambled.

You cannot control or directly influence your husband. You cannot end the affair. The only person you can control is YOU.

One of your most important tasks is exposure. Please read the thread, "Affair Exposure 101." I'll bump it up for you.

WAT

Yesterday was a "good day",

Both H and I seem to have made a "silent" truce in order to get back some focus on our kids and other "things" to do that we have been neglecting.

It is kind of awkward: living together knowing that H wants to separate, probably silently planning on how he will organize himself after the separation, as we are just putting in time until at least we both stop (particularly me) having "anxiety attacks" moments. He is deadset on separating, but also deadset on wanting to do it with my collaboration, my permission, and therefore he is waiting for me to be "up to it" to do it in the most "civil" manner. At this point, maybe, given the time, I don't know, I may just want it as well rather than this "quicksand" arrangement, not knowing when he will have had enough and leave in the worst way.

I guess at this point I am also questioning: do I have what it takes, and if so, do I want to put the energy (especially if I am doing it solo).

H worries about my "dragging" this over time intentionally with the hope that the A eventually ends, and then for sure he would resent me. Now I am wondering if "dragging" this over time may actually change my mind on how much I want to invest in our M, especially if H is deadset on not wanting it. Maybe I should just let it go, rather than fight it.

Anyway, I seem to be in a "plateau" right now, trying to gather some energy while somehow waiting for the storm to pick up, but not knowing exactly when it will.

As far as calling the "bluf" on my H wanting his freedom, I do honestly believe that if I dare him to, he will. I rather he decide to leave, period, and not as a result of a dare. I guess at this point, he is not prepared, because partly I guess he needs to put some planning into it, which I believe him quite capable of doing. In the meantime, I guess, I am trying to process the 'shock' so that I can somehow move to action - I need to admit it: I am in shock, because I do feel paralyzed, and am not action-driven, or at least am trying to be ready for the next "shock" - H actually removing himself from the home.

Anyway, we do and did get along well, so that LBs are at a low, but meeting EN obviously is 'on hold': on H's part, he doesn't want to do anything that will give me hope, and I on the other hand respect his distance (or otherwise be rejected, or be accused of manipulating him and therefore making the OW even more interesting).

I guess we could call this a "status quo" living with "one little problem" - H is supposedly in love with someone else, and would like us to be "friends",etc. It somehow feels like the "quite" moment just before a bomb is dropped.

I ask myself, what am I feeling right now? I feel tired, I feel like giving up, don't know where to find my source of energy, I lack confidence, I worry about getting hurt even more, and I especially don't like this awful feeling in my stomach that I have never really had before: this sense of fragility where before it was solid. Is this anxiety, nerves, stress?

I feel like a chicken with her head cut off! UGH!

I reread myself: I feel I am definitely on the "react" mode to events, and not taking control of myself. Also, it looks to me as a "big doubt" period.

THank you all for accompanying me and supporting me through this. I certainly do appreciate it.

LUNAMARE

Luna - we can't make you fight for your family.

You either want it or you don't mind it being ripped apart.

What would it take for you to be sure of what you want?

Two boys, right? How old are they? Early teens, right?

Imagine them gone - at least half the time.

Imagine them out of your sight and away from your guidance and influenced by two unrepentant liars and cheats.

I and many others here can tell you what this is like. I can tell you more than you want to hear. It's not pretty.

I can describe to you what it's like to lose one of your boys completely, totally. Would that help you muster the energy to fight for your family?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He is deadset on separating, but also deadset on wanting to do it with my collaboration, my permission, and therefore he is waiting for me to be "up to it" to do it in the most "civil" manner.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course he is. They ALL are at this stage. Please, please stop assessing his statements and desires as if they're coming from a rational person. They are not. Humor him. Let him go about his plan to separate, but without your assistance. Allow him to make it a unilateral decision.

Let us know when you're ready to fight for your family.

Dear WAT,

Quote:
------------------------------------------------
Luna - we can't make you fight for your family.
You either want it or you don't mind it being ripped apart.
What would it take for you to be sure of what you want?
-------------------------------------------------

You have convinced me, I do want to fight for my family.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------
He is deadset on separating, but also deadset on wanting to do it with my collaboration, my permission, and therefore he is waiting for me to be "up to it" to do it in the most "civil" manner.
--------------------------------------------------

Of course he is. They ALL are at this stage. Please, please stop assessing his statements and desires as if they're coming from a rational person. They are not. Humor him. Let him go about his plan to separate, but without your assistance. Allow him to make it a unilateral decision.
-------------------------------------------------
You're write WAT. I am taking what he is saying literally, seriously, etc. because I tell myself: who else should know what H wants if not himself, and he seems very adamant about what he wants and needs to do. He says he has anxiety attacks at the thought of not seeming the OW - his soulmate. I see him feeling so strongly about it, that I can't imagine it that it could be temporary. H even says it himself: I would have tried recovery had it been just a short fling. He says he is deeply in love with the OW, and that it's more than a fling. He wants her in his life and is projecting himself in the future with her in it.

Should I tell him that I don't think that we can ever be "friends", we will coparent as best we can, so he should go ahead and make his plans, but without my blessing? Or, just leave it, when he is tired of waiting around or has sufficiently planned out his exist, he will probably give me an ultimatum, and then leave - making me probably feel bad at the same time - since he had hoped I would collaborate more - and make him remind me that we had agreed, whenever one wanted out of the marriage, this would be allowed - without being made to feel bad about it.

Anyway, I do intend to read SAA, but I notice from the table of contents that quite a bit of the book concentrates on "recovery" which I may never get to for a while, or never get to, period.

Thanks WAT for your quick response.

LUNAMARE

Luna,

I think it is very important you read SAA at least as far as it gets to recovery. The first part about how As start and end will give you information that has already been said on your threads. WAT has even better practical advice on plan A than what you will find in the book. BUT maybe the explanations of WS action, WHY they behave as they do and WHY plan A and eventually plan B work best to recover your marriage than just reacting, will convince you.
My situation was very similar to yours. I did plan A for 2months once I knew what it was shortly before d day, but my WH continued the A. So I am now in plan B and I don't feel there was any other choice. I refuse to live with somebody who is cheating. It's out of respect for myself.
I don't want a marriage between a threesome.

I agree with Pep and others. Call his bluff. Let him go. Write your plan B letter NOW, put it up here for the experts to review and plan A for a couple of weeks while you get ready.

JMHO

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

As far as calling the "bluf" on my H wanting his freedom, I do honestly believe that if I dare him to, he will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No where did I use the word 'dare'. This is not a dare. This is a release. "You say you want 'out'. Then there is the door. Walk through it freely of your own will. I have no chains on your ankles."

He wants to leave with NO GUILT.

Sorry bub. No can do.

Keeping him there under these circumstances is going to KILL your love for each other.

My opinion.

Pep

On the "friends" thing, make no promises. They all want to be friends, because they are naive and trying to be "noble." WS in severe stupor like yours do not consider the feelings of anyone other than themselves and their OP. Some BSs may also think they can remain friends, and some probably do. All I know is that I am NOT friends with my XW nor her useful idiot. (I could be, but not until they come clean, which may never occur.)

But for now, forget the "friends" thing. I suggest you communicate very clearly that you DO NOT want a divorce nor a separation. You want to keep an intact family and rebuild your marriage for the good of all involved. "Friends" isn't even on the table.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>he will probably give me an ultimatum, and then leave </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What kind of ultimatum? Be friends or else? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> What do you mean here?

Not only should you NOT give a blessing to his plans, you make it clear as per above that you have only your family interests in mind. Separation is NOT a way to strengthen a family and you will not assist him if he chooses to pursue a separation. Period.

Make YOU feel bad because you're not cooperating with the destruction of your family??????
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">- and make him remind me that we had agreed, whenever one wanted out of the marriage, this would be allowed - without being made to feel bad about it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you serious? Was this really the foundation of your marriage?

Tell him you "feel bad" about seeing the destruction of your boys' family. ....that you have discovered something more important than your feelings.

WAT

Dear WAT:

Quote:
------------------------------------------------
On the "friends" thing, make no promises.
------------------------------------------------

But if H does leave, would this not be better to be on good terms for the sake of the boys in the long-run? I would think coparenting can be more effective if the two parents can work together on a friendly basis and actually end up helping each other if need be. I have some friends who separated and have a wonderful R and coordinate things really well, with both parties' objectives being the well-being of the child.

Anyway, at this point I will have to be honest with him. I don't know if I really could, because being in this situation, it really is not my choice.

Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
I suggest you communicate very clearly that you DO NOT want a divorce nor a separation. You want to keep an intact family and rebuild your marriage for the good of all involved.
-------------------------------------------------

I have told H that I would like to work on R: after having at least tried, then we both might decide that separation is the best course. His problem of course is: how can I be in good faith in such a process if all I am thinking about is the OW, and he is right. Besides, this idea apparently also gets H really up in arms. H says we can't stay together just for the kids, and gets really frustrated because I don't validate his feelings for the OW. By saying things like that, H says I am totally ignoring his feelings for the OW. What should he be doing with that - in my little plan of a family. Apparently, H can't stop thinking about OW.


quote: Originally posted by lunamare:
he will probably give me an ultimatum, and then leave

quote:
-------------------------------------------------
What kind of ultimatum? Be friends or else? What do you mean here?
-------------------------------------------------

Yea, more or less. Like, are we going to do this "separation" together, or else I am gone, because you are not collaborating, and H not prepared to go indefinitely until I am good and ready, then stomp out.

At this point, what would be good for the family is not on his mind - H is the first to admit that he is being egotistical at this point - like, before he was sacrificing his individuality and needs, and does not want pass by a good thing before he dies.

-------------------------------------------------quoting Lunamare: and make him remind me that we had agreed, whenever one wanted out of the marriage, this would be allowed - without being made to feel bad about it.
--------------------------------------------------

quoting WAT: Are you serious? Was this really the foundation of your marriage?
------------------------------------------------
Not really, WAT, it was more like, we should not feel M as a prison, obliged to stay, because as we all say, can't force anyone to stay in a M.
But on the other, it was not meant to be a "get up and leave" without having at least attempted to work on the R, which H just says, he would very much like to, but can't under the
circumstances (in love with OW).

It does somehow feel like a Catch 22 situation. I would if I could, but I can't.

Tell me WAT, unless things get to be unbearable, would you suggest we stay together, like, take it day by day, avoiding doing LBing, etc. until H hits his limits, or I hit my limits, or not? Would this be making their fantasy more stronger ie. comparing it to our daily life at home, and how much more exciting it would/will be? Would this not be making the "bubble" even bigger? Or, separation, if it can be postponed, do so.

They are seeing each other at work, but do not obviously have the same freedom were H to leave home.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Lunamare

I'll take a stab at your questions via several posts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>Quote:
------------------------------------------------
On the "friends" thing, make no promises.
------------------------------------------------

But if H does leave, would this not be better to be on good terms for the sake of the boys in the long-run? I would think coparenting can be more effective if the two parents can work together on a friendly basis and actually end up helping each other if need be. I have some friends who separated and have a wonderful R and coordinate things really well, with both parties' objectives being the well-being of the child.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm coming at this one step at a time. In the long run, it's better for all involved for you two to rebuild your marriage. Separation isn't on the table from your standpoint.

I understand he may decide to separate against your will and if this happens and you go to Plan B, friends you will be.

If this proceeds all the way to divorce - and you're a LONG way from that - I doubt you will meet my definition of "friends." This does not mean you cannot be civil. I am civil with my XW and I am NOT her friend.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>Quote:
-------------------------------------------------
I suggest you communicate very clearly that you DO NOT want a divorce nor a separation. You want to keep an intact family and rebuild your marriage for the good of all involved.
-------------------------------------------------

I have told H that I would like to work on R: after having at least tried, then we both might decide that separation is the best course. His problem of course is: how can I be in good faith in such a process if all I am thinking about is the OW, and he is right. Besides, this idea apparently also gets H really up in arms. H says we can't stay together just for the kids, and gets really frustrated because I don't validate his feelings for the OW. By saying things like that, H says I am totally ignoring his feelings for the OW. What should he be doing with that - in my little plan of a family. Apparently, H can't stop thinking about OW.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"By saying things like that, H says I am totally ignoring his feelings for the OW."

OF COURSE YOU ARE!!! HE'S YOUR HUSBAND!!!!

Not only that, you are totally discounting the wisdom of his actions and the notion that he rationally knows what he wants!!!

"His problem of course is: how can I be in good faith in such a process if all I am thinking about is the OW, and he is right."

Good faith? How can he in good faith be involved with OW in the first place????

Don't get sucked into his twisted way of thinking about things!

We know he can't stop thinking about the OW. This is required for an affair to be sustained. It's a given.

This is not something you can directly change. You can only compell him to change. Your posture should be squarely atop the moral high ground: the family comes first and you are not agreeing to ANYTHING - much less a slutty OW - that is destructive to your family. If communicating this to him pisses him off, GOOD!!! When he gets pissed off at you, it's a good indication that you are doing the right things!!! - disagreeing with what he wants to do - destroy your family.

You HAVE to decide that keeping your family together in the long run IS WORTH pissing him off in the short run.

DO NOT think of his current mindset as permanent.

You really need to read SAA. This will all become clearer.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong> What kind of ultimatum? Be friends or else? What do you mean here?
-------------------------------------------------

Yea, more or less. Like, are we going to do this "separation" together, or else I am gone, because you are not collaborating, and H not prepared to go indefinitely until I am good and ready, then stomp out.

At this point, what would be good for the family is not on his mind - H is the first to admit that he is being egotistical at this point - like, before he was sacrificing his individuality and needs, and does not want pass by a good thing before he dies.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Like, are we going to do this "separation" together, or else I am gone, because you are not collaborating, and H not prepared to go indefinitely until I am good and ready, then stomp out."

Let me get this straight.

Is he saying that you need to agree to a "cordial" separation, or else he's leaving you in a huff?

What planet is he from???

Do you see the lunacy, Luna, in this logic?

Pepperband is spot on right in this regard. Let him stomp out.

I recommend your posture ought to be like I've said before: You don't want a separation nor a divorce. You are standing for your family because he isn't. If he is hell bent on sowing his wild oats, let him do this WITHOUT your blessing or assistance.

WAT

***He wants to leave with NO GUILT.
Sorry bub. No can do.
Keeping him there under these circumstances is going to KILL your love for each other.
My opinion.
Pep***

Mine too. Exactly.

It all boils down to this: Your husband has gone out and found himself a girlfriend. He wants to leave his family and go date her for a while and act just like a single guy while his family sits home and waits for him.

He is demanding that you absolve him of all guilt so that he can feel good about himself while he abandons his family. If you don't, he has threatened to get angry and nasty and "not be your friend."

Does this sound like something a rational man would say or do?

Of course it doesn't. He is not your husband right now. He is OW's boyfriend.

If you want your husband back, you must ask yourself a question: Am I more afraid of (1) his anger and tantrums if I refuse to "support" his abandoning the family for a girlfriend, or am I more afraid of (2) his spending *years* sitting on the fence and happily going back and forth between his wife and his girlfriend?

Because (2) is precisely what he intends to do.

Option 1 means short-term pain for you, but very quickly a HUGE wake-up call for your husband and the BEST chance you have of repairing your marriage.

Option 2 means long-term misery and suffering for you and your children while your husband enjoys bouncing back and forth between two women who want him.

Which would you rather have?

Of course, there are other options. You can always just end it and file for divorce. I wouldn't blame you at all with the way he is acting. But if you want to save your marriage, you have got to stop letting him scare with threats like "I won't be your friend if you won't help me feel good about destroying our family."

Somebody here has got to be strong and rational. It's not your WH and it's not going to be. The only hope here is you. DON'T let him scare you. Like I said, he's counting on your being afraid of him. And so is his girlfriend.
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lunamare:
<strong>Tell me WAT, unless things get to be unbearable, would you suggest we stay together, like, take it day by day, avoiding doing LBing, etc. until H hits his limits, or I hit my limits, or not? Would this be making their fantasy more stronger ie. comparing it to our daily life at home, and how much more exciting it would/will be? Would this not be making the "bubble" even bigger? Or, separation, if it can be postponed, do so.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SAA will lay this out better than I can.

We here will recommend you do as good a Plan A as you can until he leaves. If that happens, and upon securing the appropriate legal arrangements, you shift to Plan B.

If you hit your limits before he leaves, you can attempt to get him to leave, then go to Plan B.

Notice I recommended nothing for him to do. We cannot control him and it's futile to try.

What this does or does not do to their fantasy is irrelevant. Hopefully, their fantasy will lose its luster from his standpoint as he see that life with you and your boys is more valuable than he thought. It is impossible to predict what will be happening to their bubble.

The other thing you have to do is begin exposure of the affair. In this regard, please update us on your understanding of what her H knows - based on YOUR direct comminication with him. Also describe his family connections and your relationship with them and the employment circumstances of your H and OW.

WAT

Tell me WAT, unless things get to be unbearable,

[Aren't things pretty unbearable right now?]

would you suggest we stay together, like, take it day by day, avoiding doing LBing, etc.

[Yes, this is part of Plan A]

until H hits his limits, or I hit my limits, or not?

[You will hit your limits over and over. You are stronger than you have ever known. You will become much stronger as an individual, whether your marriage survives, or not. We can help you do the very best at doing those things that will be instrumental in helping your marriage survive.]

Would this be making their fantasy more stronger ie. comparing it to our daily life at home, and how much more exciting it would/will be?

[Plan A, done properly, will make him take a real hard look at what he has to give up in order to live out this "pipe dream" (That's you and your children). The changes you will make in yourself will make you look more attractive to him, and the OW will begin to lose her luster.]

Would this not be making the "bubble" even bigger?

[The A is what it is made to be by your WH and the OW. Only they can decide what it's future will be. You can take ACTIONS that will impact how they feel about their affair! When you do the proper EXPOSURE, there's a very good chance this bubble will POP, and reality will set in with a vengence]

Or, separation, if it can be postponed, do so?

[Plan A is best done when your H is living at home with you. Play dumb, or oblivious to his rantings about moving out. You can't stop him. He's just manapulating you with fear. Instead, make the best of the time you have with him at home, in a really strong Plan A, and watch his "committment" to this affair dissolve. Think positive, believe in yourself, and know that you are going to be successful in this journey.]

Best wishes,
SD

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Hello,

Thanks for all the input since my last posting.

Well, I have now read enough of SAA to get discouraged. My H and the OW work together. OW is in the process of separation from her H. I suspect the two are making plans together for the future.

At this point, I do feel there is very little hope.

H won't listen to reason. He would like to do things with my collaboration, but if he doesn't get it, he will do it anyway - he says he is prepared to be considered a jerk if need be. But if so, I do worry the kids will suffer.

To be honest, I think he knows, even if he wanted to or agreed to try, he would never be able to do or go through what it takes to mend the marriage. He was a smoker, and knows well how easily he can succomb to 'addictive' behaviour. I think H made the decision he made because he can't see himself going back and undo what he has done, so let's move forward with the OW, and hopefully give new R a better shot.


What you suggest is going to be hard and painful, I need to think this through. I really would like to save the M, but at what cost I am not sure, and I just don't know if I have what it takes.

I wonder sometimes if I am just having a difficult time of letting go. Our R is going through a rough ride, and I really don't know if it can survive, even with my best efforts.

I also don't really get it! I think. I am still doing things from a lot of 'uncertainty'.

Sorry guys for disappointing you all. I wish I could do better, even just for all of you.

I got to work on myself. I am feeling much too down. I feel this is all totally over my head.

Even with all the advice I am getting, I am not putting it all together. Plans in my M were always done with H. Now I need to work on a plan for M by myself? It's not sinking in, and its hard to keep the moral up by myself. (Sorry don't want to insult you all and I appreciate all your help and support, but bottom line, I am by myself).

It is one of the darker hours (if not the darkest) in my life, and to be honest, I am doing some wishful thinking, I wish I could go to sleep and please wake me up when it's over.

I know, I know, I am being silly, but this is all too 'serious', I need to lighten up a bit to keep going. I need to tell me that worst things can happen in life, and maybe this will help me to pick myself up and go.

Anyway, I am rambling on, and I hate thinking I am wasting your time. I guess I need to go through this.

Again, I really really appreciate all the thought you are putting into my situation.

Take care, all of you.

LUNAMARE

PS H's position is that he is not abandoning family. He says that he definitely intends to respect his responsibility as a Father (and this I believe, he adores the boys), and he cares very much about me and would be there for me as best as he could. He says our relationship will not end, it will evolve into some other form of a relationship - ie. as parents, to do the best we can, for our boys.

I know, I know. I can see how he is rationalizing things to feel better about what he is doing!

ARGH! How helpless I feel in not being able to get through to him - to let him see all he is destroying and giving up.

OW is in the process of separation from her H.

Ok, this is what you hear from your WH, but is it the TRUTH? This is "what they all say". Always remember, the LAST person you can trust for the truth is a WS. It's entirely possible the OW's H knows nothing of this affair. Don't believe anything your WH tells you right now, ok?

At this point, I do feel there is very little hope.

Luna, we all felt this way. Something like this takes a huge toll on your self esteem, and your sense of well being. But your ACTION will start making a difference.

H won't listen to reason.

No WS listens to reason. Your words will NOT impact him in any way. You have been "tuned out". Save your breath, and set your resolve to make a difference through ACTIONS.

He would like to do things with my collaboration, but if he doesn't get it, he will do it anyway - he says he is prepared to be considered a jerk if need be. But if so, I do worry the kids will suffer.

Of course he would like your cooperation. Take the easiest way to move forward without consequences for his actions. Pay NO attention to his words. WS Fogspeak. It means nothing. If he leaves you and the kids, he will be considered a jerk anyway, by all but the OW, and in any permanent seperation or divorce, the kids DO suffer. So let's work on saving the marriage, OK?

I think H made the decision he made because he can't see himself going back and undo what he has done, so let's move forward with the OW, and hopefully give new R a better shot.

Only because it suits the script for the fantasy world he's created for himself. What he doesn't realize, is all the negative baggage he brought to your marriage, he will carry to any future R. Not to mention the added baggage of an X-Wife, and sharing custody of children. He's clueless. Start "looking" at him as the "impaired" person that he is. Stop looking at him like he's the H that you knew.

What you suggest is going to be hard and painful, I need to think this through. I really would like to save the M, but at what cost I am not sure, and I just don't know if I have what it takes.

Yes, yes, and the cost will be less than the "price" you pay for sitting idly by while a family unit breaks apart. And yes. You have what it takes!

I wonder sometimes if I am just having a difficult time of letting go. Our R is going through a rough ride, and I really don't know if it can survive, even with my best efforts.

We understand exactly how you feel. It will take your best efforts, and we don't know if it will survive either, but we do know you'll feel better moving on in your life without him, if you've done everything possible to save the marriage.

I also don't really get it! I think. I am still doing things from a lot of 'uncertainty'.

You will get it! It's time to hike up your shorts, roll up your sleeves, and start taking those actions that will make a difference. People on these forums will help you along the way. You are not alone.

Sorry guys for disappointing you all. I wish I could do better, even just for all of you. I got to work on myself. I am feeling much too down. I feel this is all totally over my head.

Yes, you have to work on yourself. This is your #2 mission. Your #1 mission is to expose this affair. All of the things we will suggest you do will give you a sense of empowerment. Like you have some control in a life that is spinning out of control right now. Are you ready to do the work??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Now I need to work on a plan for M by myself?

No, now you need to work on YOU. The marriage can wait.

It is one of the darker hours (if not the darkest) in my life, and to be honest, I am doing some wishful thinking, I wish I could go to sleep and please wake me up when it's over.

Yes, it's a very dark and lonely time. But you have 2? children who need one sane, responsible person in their lives. That is you. No one can replace you. They need you now, more than ever.

I need to tell me that worst things can happen in life, and maybe this will help me to pick myself up and go.

Whatever it takes to get you motivated! We are just waiting for you to say "GO". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Luna, there are thousands of people who have gone through this and survived. This Marriage Builder's site is the BEST program; ie, roadmap, on how to be successful in your efforts. Please don't give up. We'll help you along the way!

Best wishes,
SD

ps: These boards get pretty slow on the weekends so don't dispair. Remain status quo, begin meeting all of your WH's EN's (emotional needs, including SF (sexual fulfillment) and stay busy, busy, busy. Right now, the less you talk to your WH about the A and your M, the better. Stay positive, upbeat, cheerful, and act as though life couldn't be better! You may get an MB Emmy later on.

Pss: Here's a copy of another thread that was just resurrected from the archives. It's "zizzycool's" explanation of the Plan A she put into effect. This will give you an idea of the ACTIONS you will be adopting in your efforts to save your marriage.

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zizzycool
Member
Member # 30296

posted February 16, 2004 05:59 AM
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Here is the plan A of dos and donts. I copied it from others. You can add some more to the list if you like. I have to admit i was lousy at plan A. But there was prove that it worked when my WS said to me once that he prefered if i was raving jilted wife than a calm one. It does confuse them you know and that is what we want.


1. Do a 180 degree turnaround. If I feel angry for whatever he is doing and he is expecting angry, I will try to be happy. Must be consistent.

2. Get him to come home often so it will give me more time and opportunity to make a difference

3. Stop asking for more time, stop asking for truth, stop asking for honesty, stop asking for affection or any other emotional needs because he cannot give it now. He is in the fog

4. Asking and asking will push him farther and farther away.

5. If OW is being a friend that makes it possible for him to relax then I must also do the same trick as OW is doing.

6. Leave him alone and don’t asked about OW or any other personal thing

7. Be nice and look attractive.

8. If he talks about OW, I must be happy and not let the angry get in the way. Of if I feel that I cannot take the information then I will change the subject.

9. He is eating both cakes and there is nothing I can do about it. Resistant is futile.

10. If I am nice then he has nothing to complaint about and OW will start asking and he will have to tell her that we are getting along better. OW will not like it and may herself start to LB.

11. OW does not know about MB and I have the upper advantage.

12. OW is an angel in his eyes so I must fight to be better than her. Beat OW at her own game.

13. Every time I get upset it only pushes him to OW.

14. He is still here so I still have a chance to save my marriage but I must do an excellent Plan A.

15. Be his friend and not his wife. He needs a safe person to be with.

16. All affairs will run its course and end. I will strengthen my marriage from this experience but I must have some faith. I must be smart and use my head. Must be focus and not lose to my hurt and pain. Be patience.

17. If I lose it then I will be back to square one and all the effort that I have put it will not be any use. I have lost it once. DON’T DO IT AGAIN. Remember that one serious love busting can completely wreck 6 good months of Plan A. In his foggyland he only remembers the bad episode and not the many good episodes.

18. Remember that what you are doing now is also getting back at OW so stick to the plan. It is payback time.

19. Don’t push because the more you push the more he will dig his feet in. Pushing will make him feel like he is being control.

20. Plan A is to show him that there is happiness in this marriage before proceeding into Plan B. Must create new memories of a loving, committed, dedicated spouse.

21. Don’t punish him or make him guilty

22. Don't do a Plan A expecting something in return. Do Plan A because you love him and that you'll be there for him when this fantasy fog lifts. Don’t expect anything to happen so soon.

23. Don’t remind him of his sins and guilt. Don’t talk anything that reminds him of his guilt. He is still undecided and reminding him of his sins and quilt will not help me.

24. You can’t make him love you. He is struggling himself and trapped in his addiction. He cannot decide. Pushing him will not help him to decide but only to push him further away.

25. Give him all the EN. It will built his love for you so it will match that love he has for OW. This will confuse him.

26. Give Plan A two weeks and do a good Plan A


(still zizzycool) I would add just one thing...Have your home neat and uncluttered...Let it be a HAVEN to come home to....just as the OW is probably quiet and peaceful.

Now me... Please print out these three thread you've started and read them over and over. Much of the MB program is counterintuitive to what your "gut" reaction might be. You need to "change" how you think in order to accept and believe in this philosophy. (((((((lunamare)))))))

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^bump^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Luna.... how are you?