Since I've just recently confronted (and reconfronted, this morning) my W about her affair, and gotten back adamant denials from her that she's having one, I got to wondering. In most books on the subject of infidelity and in a lot of the stories on this forum, the betrayer is either exposed through being caught or else feels so guilty that he or she eventually confesses. They don't really talk much about the cheating spouse who just continues to deny and deny their affair.<P>The problem is this. If you don't have much hard evidence for the affair, the betrayer can just keep up their denials and there's not really much you (or a couples counselor) can really do about it. And if the betrayer is convincing enough in their denials, they can make the betrayed seem crazy, paranoid and distrustful for even having suspicions.<P>So - Spouses of betrayers in denial, what's your story? Do these types ever come clean or is the only solution to "bust" them? (That's coming more and more to seem like what I'm going to have to do - and it's really difficult because my W is so skilled at hiding her affair.)<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Wex<BR>I am still busting!<BR>My H admitted to the affair when I asked him "Do you have a cowgirl bimbo?"<BR>He spent months denying after admitting.<BR>He continued to talk to her 5-10 times a day for two months after discovery. Seeing her every weekend. (She lives !00 miles away) He still lies if she needs something.<BR>I know a lot of people think that we shouldn't snoop. If I didn't snoop they would still be talking 5-10 times a day. It is a long struggle sometimes.<BR>I don't understand what's with your wife. Honestly!!! I would think that she would want to end this one way or the other.<BR>After saying that I realize how long my H betrayed me emotionally with the OW. <BR>Wex, In July my H denied and denied and denied being with the OW until I repeated the message from his voicemail word for word.<BR>I think they get so caught up in the lie habit that they believe what they say is true as long as they say it out loud.<BR>I wish for your sake that your wife was as bad at lying as my H.

Well, Wex, my H lied to me for 13 years--even though he brought me a most unwanted "gift" straight from her--and in spite of my repeatedly asking him (not all the time--mostly when I was furious with him) for all those years! <P>He didn't admit it until I blew up and walked out because he went to have lunch at the cafe woman's restaurant when she was there---AFTER I had told him that I did not want him around her without me being with him. He still hasn't admitted to anything going on with the restaurant woman, but I think he ended that after I confronted him with my suspicions. I also don't think his "one-night stand" was the only one he had, either. That whole year, he was REALLY screwed up.<P> Did you ever get any results from the OM's license plate number?

Wex, my husband denied for about six months off and on. I didn't have any proof and had to believe what he told me. Even the night she left the message on my answering machine telling me that she "had" him whenever she wanted, he would have denied it if I had let it drop - but that time I didn't take no for an answer. And it finally came out. It almost seems to me that they will deny for as long as they want to have things both ways... They will break down and admit it only when they are either reeling from the guilt or ready to leave. <P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>No, I'm not a Marriage Counselor,<BR>But I did sleep at a <BR>Holiday Inn Express last night...<BR>

He's still denying!<P>

My H didn't admit anything until a couple of months after he left, although I had asked him previously. Even then, he admitted it once and then began to deny again. He knew I had phone call evidence. I had told the counselor when I found out about the affair, and she admitted that she knew. My H actually told me that I shouldn't believe the counselor! He finally admitted a few weeks ago to our oldest daughter that he had found "someone to talk to" last fall.

<BR>My wife denied right up until I had absolute proof. I had proof of phone cards, proof that she told him she loved him, proof of all of it. She looked me right in the eyes and lied and she's a good liar.<P>I sincerely doubt she'd EVER have admitted anything if I hadn't had the proof to show her.<P>InSane<BR>

Sigh, another depressing thread.<P>My husband has admitted ONLY to the hard evidence that I've been able to produce (not much, considering that it was an Internet affair limited to work). Anything that looks circumstantial or anything considered hearsay gets denied. Now I suppose this means he COULD be telling the truth, but I've caught him in so many lies in the past -- and his story really does look lame and bloodless compared to the ones I've heard from the OW and others.<P>Still don't know who to believe, but have decided to put it aside and stop trying to bust him -- it was too hard on both of us.

o2bsane ><P>Man, do you ever sound like my "friend's" husband. too weird . . . oh well, probably not, even though she had mentioned to me she has shown you / him ? how to post here. Could be, huh ? <P>Nah . . . but there are similarities, so just for the sake of exchanging information on the subject, from the other side of the field, bear with me and perhaps even I can give you a little feedback. Imagine that, the OM actually giving a damn. Anyway . . .<P>So, IF you were my "friend's" husband, then I would say this. She really likes you, man. Straight-up. After so many years of marriage, and the kids, and all that the two of you have built together as a family, you and I both know that she is one of those special persons who has pretty much lived her life caring more about, and living for, other people . . . friends and family . . . than herself. Yep, she sure is a special woman alright. <P>But, before you start to freak . . . our relationship is NOT sexual. Okay ? Believe it or not, just the way it is. <P>Why all the lies ? For one, she doesn't know how to end your agony over losing her and is all torn up inside over doing what is best for everyone concerned. Your family, her family . . . but most important of all (trust me on this one) . . . most of importantly of all, it is YOU, man. She really does love YOU. If she didn't, all those fights and arguments would not be happening. It is the fear of hurting you that scares her. The fear turns to anger when you become angry and show the pain you have for what you don't understand. You feel betrayed, and you lash out at her for betraying you. The denial, the lies, are a survival mechanism to keep from going completely nuts . . . It is extremely hard for her, too. All the counseling ? You know she really tried as hard as you did. But the fact still remains. The two of you have grown apart due to nobody's fault. Just the way it is.<P>"Bust them" ? Want me to call ? We are not sleeping together, so what is there to "bust" ? <P>All the snooping around you do is pushing her further and further away. Mostly, she is trying to lay a foundation for future relationships. Yep . . . with you, and your new significant other (eventual, of course) and with me or some other guy . . . your family, her family , and all those holidays and special events you two will be sharing in the future.<P>At least this is what she is trying to do, anyway. And in the meantime, you keep clinging to the hope that she will come around one day. She submits to your "husbandly" needs like a dutiful wife, and then crys on my shoulder because she feels like a wh*** . It is tearing her up inside, because she really does care so much about you and your feelings. Hence, the lies.<P>You would never believe that we have not "consumated" our friendship, so she lies through her teeth to you in fear of hurting you. The jealousy, and anger, and all those emotions that most men feel when they suspect that another man has "had" their mate just comes roaring out when we even suspect infidelity. <P>So tonight she calls me and asks me to wait for her. And then crawls in bed with you. Crazy, isn't it ? Such a wonderful woman who is willing to do anything you ask of her because she really does care so very much for you. But for the love of God, man. Would you do the same if you were her ?

I caught my husband in a hotel room with the woman (they WERE clothed) - but nevertheless, I did catch them there - - and he still denied up to the day of the divorce that he never had an affair. Right. We've been divorced 9 years and he still denies it.

Hi Wex<P>I think it's time you tell her straight up she is cheating on you then start Plan B. You have been in Plan A for awhile right? Lately you are lovebusting due to your knowledge of the affair. If you stay around much longer you will drive W away so start Plan B now that you showed her what a great guy you are.<P>Another reason to start Plan B now is that you really can't do anything else. She knows that you are aware of the affair so now it is harder to snoop and you will feel helpless soon so by starting Plan B at least you are doing something. Your W will need to decide who she wants to be with and give her a month or whatever it takes.<P>Remember bro.. stay strong and stand tall, no puppy dog weakness because life is too short to live like this and you did as much as you can to turn her around, it's time for her to do what she wants to do.<P>Good Luck<BR>_____________________________________________<BR>"Better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

Hi, Wex: You know my story very well! My H never admitted to it a year ago, and as time goes on, there is less of a chance of him admitting it now. Hey, lots of what I had was circumstancial, but when you get 20+ things added up together, it becomes more fact than fiction. He did stumble a bit about the "condom evidence" and the cell phone receipts ie: he WASN'T where he said he was, when I called him. Of course, the tower an hour away, had picked up my call. I called Bell to inquire about it, and they told me that the chances of that call being picked up by MY tower an hour away, was about a million to one. Not to mention the receipt I had found in his truck for Cdn. Tire for purchases made the same day, in our town, 45 minutes BEFORE I had called him (when he was an hour away from home!) He has NO idea where the receipt came from. The "hardest" evidence I found was when I "swept" the house with the black light I had purchased. Yeah, every room "she" had slept in, showed signs of sexual activity, and might I add, that I had never slept in those 2 rooms, nor had anyone else! The furnishings/bedding/carpeting had all been purchased when we moved into our home, less than a year before his affair. That is the one piece of evidence I WON'T tell him about it, as I might need the light in the future! Hey, I may be stupid, but I am not an idiot! I read a post here in the Spring, about the GPS and how you can reverse it, to monitor activities. My H has one, locked in the cabinet with his guns. When I asked him where he had hidden the keys, he wouldn't tell me. He told me that he thought I was going to shoot him! Just as well, I guess. At that time, I probably would have!!! Wex, my question to you is this? How "hard" does the evidence have to be, before she will admit anything to you? She seems to be getting more casual with her lies, as time progresse! Just keep on looking. You don't deserve what she is doing to you, but you certainly do deserve the truth!! Take care.<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

Hi Wex,<P>I've thought long and hard about whether or not I would have confessed my affair if I hadn't found out about H's .... and truthfully, I don't know. I'm sorry to say that it is very likely that I might not have. It's really difficult to speculate because, as noted in my other thread, my H never asked me anything. And for him to ask me such a direct question as "are you having an affair" is incomprehensible to me. I just can't see it. After I would have picked myself off the floor, then maybe I would have denied like everyone else. Hard to say. But I used to think that I'd take it to my grave before ever telling anyone, let alone my H. Unfortunately (or fortunately) it didn't take the grave, but knowing he had his own affair and the sorry state our marriage was in for me to come clean. I think it's called hitting rock bottom. Yeah, that did the trick.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

Hi everyone - Thanks for your responses. Most of the "adamant deniers" seem to be H's, interestingly.<P>A little update on my situation before I get to specifics. It's gotten weird, folks, I can tell you. I have been drinking (not to the point of getting drunk and only in the evenings) because it's the only way I can manage to get through this. My W knows this and so it gives her another stick to beat me with. But every time she starts, I come back with how I know what I saw when I saw her that day get out of the OM's convertible. This happened last night as we were lying in bed. The interesting thing, though, is that she DID come to bed rather than going off in a huff to the other room and sleeping there. I also told her that I still love her and don't want to split (both true). She seems more subdued (she's not usually a subdued person). So it felt right to be doing all this even though I have no idea how it will come out in the end. (Could be anything from separation to confession and reconciliation, I think!) I think the fact that I could describe the OM's car made her realize that I did actually see her with him, making it more difficult for her to deny the affair. So my strategy now is just to keep insisting on this fact every time she denies her affair.<P>wasstubborn - That "cowgirl bimbo" line is great! I do think it's important to be specific when confronting a cheating spouse. (After all, your H admitted it when you described her.) It shows that you KNOW something and aren't just guessing based on suspicions. My W is a very tough cookie and my sense is that she's made up her mind that she wants to keep her affair. I've read postings that sounded like her (but weren't) on Philanderer's Forum, and this has given me a much better understanding of where betrayers are coming. Especially the women, who, I have to say, do seem to make up the majority of postings there. Some of them sound like they would rather lose a body part than have their affairs come to light and many of them go on and on over how great the OM is and what great lovemaking they have with him compared with their H. And some of them make a point about not feeling guilty at all.<P>Sweetpea - No, I'm still waiting to do that. Thing is, though I've gotten the plate of a car that might be his, I'm not sure. I haven't seen them together again after that one time. (I think they're being a LOT more careful now that they know that I know what his car looks like.) Your H is truly one of the great deniers and I am amazed at how long someone can keep up something like this.<P>terri - I think you're absolutely right about betrayers wanting to have things both ways. I'm convinced that this is where my W is coming from. I guess that's why I pressed the confrontation at this point. She's got to decide which man she really wants, a guy who owns a sleek convertible and gives her great sex, or a guy who has much, much more to offer including the great sex if she would just let him!<P>trustntruth - Ah, the persistence of betrayers! And I'm afraid my W is one of those like your H, unfortunately.<P>Nellie1 - Amazing. The thing is, I don't think my W has even told her individual therapist about her affair. I was hoping she would, so she could get some professional advice about this, but all she's done is complain about me and get him to validate her point of view that I'm crazy. And to tell you the truth, I hate involving 3rd parties in this, even professionals.<P>o2bsane - You sound very sane to me. It's good to hear a guy's story because it does sound very similar to my situation, except that I don't have the kind of proof (yet) that you managed to get. So I guess until I do, she'll continue to lie.<P>Cristalle - Hey, infidelity is a depressing forum topic. But I think your remark that, "Anything that looks circumstantial or anything considered hearsay gets denied" is right on target.<P>Carlton - Who is the "you" of your monolog? I couldn't quite sort out the situation.<P>Cndy - Even I could make up a good story to get out of that one. "She's a colleague? We were discussing business?" Probably, if my W and I do split (looking more likely every day), she'll continue to deny her affair to her dying day.<P>toronto - Agree with you. I was doing Plan A and it didn't seem to be getting anywhere. All it did, I think, was to convince my W that she COULD have it both ways. So, yeah, I guess I'm trying to go to something like a version of Plan B. I had really been busting my tail to be nice to her (with fair success) for a number of months. What made me snap was our holiday weekend trip, which was supposed to help bring the romance back. It became so clear to me during this trip that she really has no sexual interest in me (and I know this is because of the OM), that I just finally "lost it" and figured I had nothing to lose by confronting her.<P>why me - Yes, I am familiar with your story and, as you know, I admire your persistence. Interesting about the black light. I've read about that. How does it work? Semen glows in the dark when you shine it?<P>new woman - Thanks especially for your response. It's good to hear from the "other side," as I've been driving myself crazy trying (and failing) to figure out my W's motives in all this. Though I'd made occasional noises to my W before about my suspicions in a kind of indirect way (maybe more than your H but still pretty indirect), this past couple of weeks was really the first time I came out and told her what I knew. I'm hoping (though, alas, not expecting) that my W will do what you did and realize this kind of situation is wrecking our marriage. In any case, at least now I think she'll be forced to leave the marriage to keep the affair or else leave the affair in order to keep the marriage, one way or the other.<P>Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex<P>

Wex, i just wanted to add one thing. H never admitted it till OW came to my house, and i only SORT OF confronted him. But he maintained that they only had sex 3 times. WEEEELLLLL, i found a card she had given him that said, "SEX, SEX, SEX! Is that all you want from me? GOOD!" In spite of the agony, i had to laugh. yup, 3 times, sure enough.<BR>(later i dreamed he was telling me, "3", and i said, "what, 3 times? for 3 weeks?", and he said no, "3 hours a day"---oh well).<BR>

Well, Wex - if you do employ a plan B, I guess you'd be the first one in a "predisclosure plan B..."<P>Interesting how this is unfolding. I'm glad you stressed to her how you would want to rebuild the marriage, despite the affair. I've had the same conversations with my husband. <P>I told him I will forgive him for the infidelity that he denies, but I'm having a real hard time with the lies.<P>Keep us posted.

Hi, Wex, just me again. About the light. I got it from the place you had recommended for the semen test kit. The kit was no longer available, but the light seemed to be a better bargain, in the long run. There were two models available, but I chose the more expensive one, mainly because you could do a bigger area at one time. You use it in the dark, and body secretions show up as a florescent pink, usually. You have to pay close attention to stain patterns. If you have a huge circle on the sheets etc. you would have to assume that one of you wet the bed!! I found that on white fabrics, it did glow pink. On carpeting, it showed up as a bright yellow. Perspiration usually had a darker brown circling, and was of course, much larger, and just had the outline of the stain. The semen stains were always filled in completely. Before you wonder, YES, I did a comparison on stains from my H and I. Also, semen from my H were a much more vivid pink, as the "second hand semen" from my body, were not nearly as defined, and not as bright. It was worth every dollar I spent on it, as I needed to know the truth, once and for all!! You can understand why that is the one bit of evidence that I will NEVER tell him about. BTW: If you are thinking of getting a light, they have an order form over the internet, and I requested that I pick it up at the post office, rather than have it delivered to our home. Happy shopping!!<P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>

why me - You are one tough cookie! Wow. And interesting! I did not know that. So I assume that you found stains that weren't yours and weren't your H's? (Including "second-hand semen" from the OW? - marvelous phrase, that, BTW.) Interesting also that they don't sell the semen test kit any more. Probably got them into trouble with some irate cheater. I'm past that stage now, I think. The problem with underwear checks is that, so what? I knew she was cheating anyway. It just gave me more solid evidence and inspired me to spy on her directly in various ways. Speaking of which, if your H and the OW had (are still having?) sex at your house, why not get a voice-activated recorder and record it? That'll nail his A$$. (I tried that but the negative results led me to conclude that at least they weren't doing it at the house. (Though I suspect early on they did a few times, before I changed jobs to a place that was close enough where I could come home in the middle of the day.) It does give you a chance to catch them in the act if you're clever enough about it. Pretend you're going on a little trip or something and sneak back! Anyway, I'm glad you found the "detective supplies" site!<P>TNT - Yeah, the lies bother me nearly as much as the affair itself too. Particularly when she's not content just to deny it, but has to turn it around on me and call me crazy and distrustful. I've decided the best way to deal with this strategy is just to stand my ground and keep saying,"I know what I saw." As for predisclosure Plan B, I don't know. I guess that is the way it's supposed to work. At this point, it's not so much a plan as just the way things happen to be working out.<P>LWB - Yeah, the three times was probably at one go! (The card is LOL despite the pain. That seems to be the sentiment among cheaters on Philanderer's forum too - wow, the sex is so great with the OP!) That's how liars work. They mix as much truth with the lie as they can to make it more plausible. When my W goes out on her "errands" and meets the OM, she always has something to show me (groceries, clothes) to "prove" that she really was on an errand. And I keep thinking (though don't say it), "Stop wasting your time babe, just see the guy and the hell with the errand!"<P>The more I think about it, the more I figure, if my W has to make a choice between me and the OM, I don't think it'll be me. I know from my own early experience with her that the sexual part of a relationship IS mighty important to her! And I will say, it seemed like I WAS satisfying her needs in that area (this is according to her not me). Can't say why she felt the need to go elsewhere except that, for a while, I was working far enough away that we could only meet on weekends. Maybe that was it.<P>--Wex

<BR>Wex-<P>Sounds to me like toronto might be right. You're not likely to be able to get the goods on her now that you've tipped your hand. If you really think you need more evidence than you already have maybe it's time to hire a P.I. Whether or not you do that, you're lovebusting and driving her away - not that you're the only one who has ever done that, mind you.<P>If you don't feel like Plan B yet, watch the lovebusters and be the nice guy for a while. She may slip later on and if you are lucky you may be there to catch her. If you're even luckier, she'll see that you really are a good guy to be with and drop the other guy. You don't want to be in a situation where even if you win, you lose.<P>InSane<BR>

Wex: Just me again. Yeah, you guessed it about the stains not being "mine." In answer to your other question, whether they're still getting it on? NO WAY!! I'm pretty sure it was over last August, when My Dad died, and everyone went home. I have my suspicions that he saw her once in the early part of September, but, can't prove it. Right after it was over between them, I would say something negative about her, to bait him, and he usually got pretty defensive. But, as time went on, he just started to agree with me if I said something, or he would add his own snarly remark about her.<BR>The last time we saw her, she had gained loads of weight, and he leaned over and remarked "Jesus C, I see sister hasn't been missing too many meals lately!" What really kills me, is that before any of this crap started, he used to commet to me how she was "hard to look at" and I used to defend her! My, how things changed.<BR>As far as the light goes, it served no purpose other than proving to myself that I was NOT crazy, and that my suspicions had been correct. <BR>I had stopped going to the cottage a couple of years ago, as he has hunting and snowmobile parties there (just guys) and I got fed up going there after, and picking up beer caps from under the couch. I did go last year, only to snoop, and yes, I did find evidence she had been there. Had already figured it out, anyway.<BR>H urged me to start going again, so I went up in May to spend the night. I told him that I didn't "feel right" there, and it felt dirty to me. He asked me what he could do make it better, as he wanted it to be the way it used to be when we went there. I replied that first off, he could clean it up. There were boxes, blankets, pillows, etc. all over the couches. I had to laugh to myself, as the first thing he did was pick up one specific blanket, from the bottom of the pile, and toss it outside. The next thing was take the bedspread/shams from "our" bed, and toss them in a garbage bag. I had brought some "stains" to his attention on the spread, and he explained to me that the mice must have gotten on the bed, and peed on it. I kid you not! Like, this is what I'm up against here! Your W could take lessons from this guy. Anyway, I pointed to the bag, and said, garbage!!! <BR>He has been busy going up there on day trips, getting the place back in order. He has put a new kitchen in (haven't seen it yet) and last week he went up, armed with Fantastic and wood floor cleaner. The only room he has left to clean is our bedroom. That should take awhile, after all, I have no idea what other damage the "mice" have done. Yuk! Yuk! If it was anyone else other than me this happened to, I would be rolling over on the floor, holding my sides from the laughter. Got to hand it to him, though, his sense of humour is getting much better!!!<BR><P>------------------<BR><BR>SUCCESS STORY<P>