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#1313571 02/25/05 09:16 AM
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They're back ... my nightly bad dreams.

I haven't had them since, ... at least September. But now they are back.

You know the ones.

The repeated betrayals.

The ridicule.

The knife in the back.

The ones that make you relive the torture over and over again. Sometimes even worst than you had imagined before.

The ones that when you wake up you feel like an open wound. Like a bruise that hurts when the breeze blows by.

I'm not in that constant pain anymore ... but I relive it vividly almost every night now.

They are back.

And it really hurts.

#1313572 02/25/05 09:53 AM
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Hey TJ:

So Sorry Brother!

All I can do is offer what worked for me. When this stuff happened (Yes-I remember all of it too well) I wrote! And I read the Bible - which helped reinforce my values and actions! And I wrote and wrote and wrote some more. Soon enough - the nightmares subsided. I know it sounds too good to work, but it did/does for me. What you're going through ain't easy or pleasant and doesn't make a lot of sense! But it's happening and you have to deal with it! Let us know how we can help!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FR

#1313573 02/25/05 10:12 AM
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Tom,
Sorry to hear about your dreams. I'm in the same boat right now. Last night I woke up at around 2 am and couldn't get back to sleep. It was so real and painful. Wish I knew an answer to make them go away. Good luck to ya,
-Paul

#1313574 02/25/05 11:15 AM
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TJ...
Hugs to you!!! I've been having dreams too but mine are the opposite. I've been dreaming that my WH wants to come home or we are together. Weird!!!! I don't know why I've been dreaming these things. I've also had dreams of me with some mystery man. Hmmmmm????? Ok, maybe that's a fantasy. LOL!

I'm sorry you are going through this. I really don't know what to tell you...I know in time all of this will be much better for both of us.
Thinking of ya!!!

T~

#1313575 02/25/05 11:48 AM
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TJ, that reeks. Any guesses on why they've returned?

Mine haven't gone away, but I don't remember them as well.

GC

#1313576 02/26/05 01:10 AM
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TJ,

Sorry to hear 'bout those nightmares. They do come back and without warning. You aren't getting those series type where it is like a mini series same dream, new episode each night, eh? Those were horrible. Mine went on for about 3 weeks. I wanted to turn off the dial but couldn't find the damm button. LOL!!!

Ok, sending an {{{MB hug}}} all the way from the of the Pacific Ocean. Not sure what that w/d but can't hurt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

#1313577 02/25/05 02:02 PM
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I remember having occasional nightmares during early recovery and before. They subsided the more reassurance my H gave me.

Yours, I think returned because of all the doubts you have about your safety in recovery and whether or not your W will be or is being completely transparent. Take your time.

I hope she is in favor of the idea of radical honesty in rebuilding the trust between you.

I really hope she will be her best self, wife, and mother in recovery and beyond.

#1313578 02/25/05 03:18 PM
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The dreams are awful aren't they. Mine go all over the place and I will wake up full of sweat. One night I woke up calling my DD's name and I was hitting the wall with my hand.

Sometimes I dream that I am in a small town and very confused, I go door to door looking for something but I don't know what it is.

Another one is that I discover a huge room in my house that I never knew existed. The room is in dire need of repair and beyond anything I could fix.

Sometimes I dream she is standing in the door when I get home. Those are the toughest.

#1313579 02/25/05 03:59 PM
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These have flared up now for about a week straight. Thanks for the support, glad I'm at least not alone (well now that I think about it ... I wish I was alone in this - how could anyone want someone to join them in this pain).
Part of why it is disurbing is because as I dream this nightmares, I am equally sure my STBX is having sweet dreams about OM. Still not a disparaging word about OM, he was perfect.

FR - your right, just ride it out. They'll disappear again. They went away when I emotionally distanced myself and after I moved out, not a single bad dream till I started talking to her again. Is that a message or what?

Pledger - Hang in there ... but most of all take care of yourself.

TR,
OH Trish... I don't know which is worse. Dreams of continual betrayal and ridicule, or dreaming of everything being perfect and waking up to find out they are still crap. I think your prediction will turn out to be correct. We will be better.

GC, glad to hear from you brother. I'm guessing maybe they have returned for the reason Trix mentioned. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yours, I think returned because of all the doubts you have about your safety in recovery and whether or not your W will be or is being completely transparent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course we are no where near what I would call recovery. Nothing is happening. I certainly don't feel safe with her at all. I tell her how I feel and she says "why do I always have to hear how you feel?"

She doesn't get it at all. She won't read HNHN's won't read SAA. It's too hard, no time, etc etc.

She didn't have any trouble spending 8+ hours a day on the computer making plans for weekend getaways and houses for sale or lingerie for OM. Guess it just makes me wonder ...

She says she does all these things, but they are things I frankly don't care about. When she does something that I actually care about, she does it in such a crass condesending way that I'd rather not even have it done. Her answer to that is "fine, if you don't like it I won't do it anymore." How juvenile is that? No committment from her, nothing has changed.

Orchid, yes! that is exactly what they are - A mini-series. I won't go into the horrific imagery ... we all have suffered from them.

I don't know how to handle the truthfullness thing. There is a great big hole at the bottom of my Love Bank. It can't get filled up because the longer the truth is obfuscated(sp) the deeper the hole becomes.

It makes just talking unpleasant because I just can't trust anything. That should be Anything (capital A). She acts so indignant when she is asked a Question too. Never answers it without resistance. And then vague.

She shows me her cell phone bill, after a big stink and production. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ( that really stocked up the Love Bank deposits, and helped me trust her.)

Anyway afterwards I ask her if she has any other phones? She says, "How could I afford another phone?" She Didn't deny it. I had to ask again just to get a yes or no. Anyway.... she tells me she bought a new laptop a week later. I guess she wants me to believe she can't afford a secret phone, but she can afford a new laptop. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> She doesn't do any work on the laptop, no even help the kids to homework, her laptop is just a platform to get on the internet from the privacy of her bed. Oh yeah, she says it was for us. Go figure? My a$$. So she buys a new laptop for who knows what, and then hands me the months bills for the house, about $1700 dollars worth.
She makes feel good everyday.

I guess I wasn't as over this as I thought, but one thing I have realized is that I will be. I am so far away from where I've was 10 months ago. If I ( & she) just keep moving the same way it won't be long ... and I'll be free like Believer.
I can do it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> One way or the other.

{Trix} Loved the picture by the way. Was it from your cruise?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope she is in favor of the idea of radical honesty in rebuilding the trust between you.

I really hope she will be her best self, wife, and mother in recovery and beyond. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No honesty yet, or transparency. Just resistance. I really think she is trying to recreate her R with OM with me. I'm nothing like that piece of trash.

BHINWI,
Yep Ive had the sweats, clenched jaws and fists. My dreams haven't been as cryptic as some of yours. Mine are right in your face. STBX and OM (OM's). The worst is the ridicule. After sharing all my vulnerablities with her for 20 years she used everyone against me ... went right for the soft spot. Shared them all my enemies. That really wasn't a dream she did that. But I re-live it each night.

Sometimes those dreams just put me in a funk all day.

But I'm actually feeling good. Feeling strong. STBX has been putting some pain on my doorstep the past few weeks. But I'm ok. She's making her own bed ... again.

.

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

#1313580 02/25/05 04:58 PM
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Thanks...and yes, from the cruise...a photo opportunity we hadn't had in a long while.

#1313581 02/25/05 05:33 PM
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TJ, she is remarkable. I don't know what's more troubling, her past cruelty or her present lack of humility.

This communication between you... it seems substantial. I thought you were in plan B.

GC

#1313582 02/25/05 05:44 PM
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Hi Tom,

So is your wife back home now? Has NC been established? Other than nightmares, how are you and your kids doing?

Carol

#1313583 02/27/05 01:05 AM
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Tom,
Whats up brother? Whats going on? I mean really what's going on?

I'm reading this thread thinking what in the he double hockey sticks is Tom doing? I guess you didnt want to be in that torture chamber with me and Gray? Look partner, she's not on the same page as you. She just isn't. I'm not saying throw in the towel, I'm just saying that it's glaringly obvious that her mind is elsewhere and that your M is not on the top of her priority list. You need to be working on TOM and not in the preparation for her return, but in the revitalization and healing for TOM. Tom it's time to be SELFISH.
It's time to worry about TOM.

What plan are you in?


A word of advice from a guy on the sideliness, an official lazy boy armchair quarterback...

Of course she'd deducting loot from your love bank, heck she could care less about your love bank she doesn't even buy into the love bank concept,

The road we walk is long and lonely for a while but eventually reality catches up and things unfold. Tom remember that it's not over until it's over....

and who the heck knows when that's going to be.

I wish you the best....

No I wish you better than the best,

You deserve it, as do us all...

but you moreso...

Hang in there big guy!!!
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#1313584 02/27/05 05:04 PM
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Hey guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

GC,
Yep! She shows no remorse. I was never really in a plan B. I was in a plan D. I limited most contact, and in fact was having a pretty good time. She wanted back into my life. She said she'd do whatever it took. But it was just a bunch of words. She just says what she wants and then does nothing. I guess she thinks it will just magically happen without any committment or participation from her.

Chack,

No we're not back living together. She claims no contact but I found something that leads me to believe she did try to contact him on Valentines Day. She denies it. Says she did think about him, (which I honestly appreciated - just wish she would have told me the whole truth)
She hasn't opened herself up to me, or let me check anything. She bought a new computer. For what, I can only imagine. She doesn't do any work on a computer. She claims she has no money for the kids or anything else. My daughter is still waiting for a pair of shoes .... but my STBX doesn't have time or money for that. But plenty of time for shop for a new laptop computer. So there really is no way for me to verify anything. She keeps everything secret. Which makes me very uncomfortable.

The strange think is Chack, that I think she likes to do that. I think she likes to make me feel vulnerable, or uncomfortable, or insecure. I think maybe it is a control thing. She has always been a control freak.

{{{FM}}} in a non man-love sort of way.

FM, I thought we were starting some kind of recovery plan. The only problem was I was the only one doing anything. She was all talk.

I am working on myself. Everyday. And it feels good, I feel good. I really look forward to being in a real partnership with someone in the future.

MY STBX apparently isn't ready to be in that kind of M. I have moved on, I've learned, I've changed. I can't change her and I won't live like I did before. So where does that leave me?

I think daily that I should just get the DV over with.

If I counted all the things she said she'd do and didn't. I'd run out of fingers and toes. The extent of her participation is "I want" a better M. "I want" to be happy. "I want" to make you happy. "I want" you to trust me.

The only problem is that is all there is. She won't do anything. I point this out to her and say Instead of saying what you want, how about saying what you will do to get what you want.

What you have + Work = what you want.

You know what FM. I don't think she does care about hurting me or disappointing me or making me feel unsafe. That is the worst part. No remorse or sorrow.

If I hadn't changed I'd tell her what I really think.... LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

#1313585 02/27/05 08:25 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Tom Joad:
[QB] Hey guys <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

{{{FM}}} in a non man-love sort of way.

[QUOTE] FM, I thought we were starting some kind of recovery plan. The only problem was I was the only one doing anything. She was all talk. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately WS's do alot of talking but VERY little action. I see it as NOT totally their FAULT but totally painful for the BS nonetheless. My WS did the same thing. She knew what she needed to do (BRAIN) but she just wasn't FEELING IT (Heart). Her mind was doing one thing and her heart another....guess which one WON?

The heart always WINS!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am working on myself. Everyday. And it feels good, I feel good. I really look forward to being in a real partnership with someone in the future. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tom...man I was so LIVID when my WS repeatedly abandoned our M and Family. When she ran off for the 5th time and got her own place I stepped up and made some decisions for ME. I changed the locks, filed for D and tried to make her sorry she left such a great H. The problem is things take time, you will need some time to heal Tom, but I'm optimistic that in the end the sun of happiness shines brightest on those with the most selfless intentions. Here's to us buddy!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MY STBX apparently isn't ready to be in that kind of M. I have moved on, I've learned, I've changed. I can't change her and I won't live like I did before. So where does that leave me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It leaves you refusing to settle for less than you deserve.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I think daily that I should just get the DV over with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hurry up and get a divorce huh? Tom I've been learning that filing and moving on with a divorce doesn't free you of all the triggers, pain or frustration. If you filed for divorce tomorrow it wouldn't necessarily make life any easier. Please promise yourself NOT to file until you can do so without EMOTION. Listen to your heart. I know that my W is not a CHILD! My W has been and still is TOTALLY capable of reclaiming her life. The hard truth is RIGHT NOW SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE M 2 ME. My W is not a mental case she simply does not want to be here. I had to stop over analyzing everything and just accepting the basic realities of my situation. Stings doesnt it? I'm told it heals little by little with the passage of time...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know what FM. I don't think she does care about hurting me or disappointing me or making me feel unsafe. That is the worst part. No remorse or sorrow. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No she cares, BUT she cares about what SHE wants/needs MORE than she cares about what YOU want/need. Your WS, very similar to my WS, isn't a terrible person, infact she is acting very HUMANELY. Its YOU and I who are acting strange!! We are the ones who are allowing people to emotionally mistreat us and still holding out hope lol Think about it! Who's the strange one?

We are the strange ones, but we are also the compassionate ones, we are standing for something when it would be way easier not to. Tom here's some advice from your buddy FM...

Listen to her actions not her words.
Remember your WS is an adult not a child, she's making her own decisions everyday.
Accept what you cannot change.
Look out for that guy in the mirror,
he's your best friend and he needs your support as well!

{{{{TOM JOAD}}}}

Manly hug right back at yah!!!

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#1313586 02/27/05 08:39 PM
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TJ and FM you are both amazing, you know that? As is Gray and many, many other men on this board.

I often wonder if I had been with a decent guy, would I act the way of your WW's.

Would I be safe enough to be a spoiled, immature, me person? Instead of the person who had to be strong financially and emotionally, because my daughter needs me, and because there has never been anyone else in my life who would have been there to pick up the pieces, my parents included.

If I had had all that your WW's spouses had, would I have flaked out? Because I could have, and there would have been a safety net for me and for my DD.

I wonder.

#1313587 02/27/05 09:27 PM
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FamilyMatters,

Long time, no talk my friend. How is it going?

Tom Joad,

Didn't read the whole thread. I may be way off base. Stop second guessing. It is not productive.

There is a "requirement" on the FS. And I have that in quotes because it is a gray area from person to person. This requirement comes from the affair.

1) The FS MUST own what they did to set up the conditions for the affair. Not that the FS CAUSED it, it is, and always will be a choice. But let's face it, if the FS was PERFECT. Or at least better than the OP, the affair may not have happened. This is normal self-improvement/self-discovery. It is only exacerbated by the situation we find ourselves in.

2) The FS MUST work on the marriage. It takes two. We all know how a WS is. Foggy. Unrealistic. The "clear head" in the situation changes based on the marriage partner's strengths and weaknesses. In the case of the A, it is usually the FS that must rise to the occasion and show the clear head. Not fair, but reality.

3) The FS MUST clearly define their boundaries. Affairs are boundary issues. Most transgressions are. Once the boundaries are defined, they should not be moved. They are, after all, boundaries. That is the point. They are there to protect you.

Sounds like you have done all these Tom. Sounds like you are passed the point where you feel that you can play "whipping boy" to save the marriage. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Everyone has different thresholds. It is better to know where yours are at than to find out the hard way. Sounds like you know where yours are at.

If you can look at yourself and be happy with who you see...

If you can examine your boundaries and determine that they are reasonable and not selfish with the express purpose of getting the upper hand over your WS...

If you can truly say that you are putting the needs of the family first...

THEN and ONLY THEN can you be at peace with your decision.

And that, is of course, when the demons come.

Second guessing.

Did I do the right thing? Did I try hard enough? Do I deserve what I am asking for?

If you have done everything above up until that point, then the answer is an emphatic YES.

Stay your course. Remember Romans 8:28. All you gotta do is believe and it WILL turn out for the better.

Maybe there will be a reconciliation. Maybe you will finish your life as a devoted father and be single. Maybe you will find someone else. Who knows? Frankly, who cares. And I say that from the sense that the definition of Tom Joad, the worth of the man, what he carries with him, who he is, is the CHOICES he makes given the adversities he faces. No more. No less.

Your destiny is yours. Be courageous, not condemning. You, first and foremost, have to live with yourself and be happy with who you are. If you can't do that, what chance do you have to spread joy to someone else? INCLUDING your kids.

You got good boundaries. You set them when you were calm, rational, and thinking. That is so that THEY serve YOU when you are not. Not the other way around.

My prayers are with you and stick to those guns,

NCWalker

#1313588 02/28/05 07:01 PM
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Weaver, I really don't deserve the pat on the back. But I am getting better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NCW, you are right about the second guessing. I know it will happen. But I tried everything. I gave all kinds of opportunities.

She called me last night and told me that she doesn't really want to meet the needs I told her about. Things like greeting me when I come in the door, or looking nice when I'm with her. I told her what would make me feel safe, and make me feel loved. She won't do any of those things. BUT... SHE SAID, she'd do something else, just not THOSE things. She said she doesn't have any money for a MC. Last week she spent $1500 on a new laptop computer. I told her, that she could afford a computer but not MC? I told her that gives me an idication of where her priorities lie. She answered, "your right!"

This morning she called again and said she doesn't believe in the MB principals and doesn't want to do them. I don't know how she'd know that, she has refused to read the books. I guess she is referring to the Policy of Honesty, and the POJA, and the Rule of Protection and Time. She doesn't believe in them.

I thanked her for her honesty. It actually relieved me a little. I was so confounded on why she wouldn't do anything I asked her, why she coninually broke her word. It is a much easier to accept now.

She emailed me today and said she was going to start dating again.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

#1313589 02/28/05 07:14 PM
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I just don't understand why she would be playing these games - after all that has been said and done.

May I ask you a question - has she always been like this or or did it start with the alien abduction?


BTW - where is my chili recipe??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: chackler ]</small>

#1313590 02/28/05 07:41 PM
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Well Chack to be completely honest, last night when she told me that she had no intention of trying to meet the needs I had, and expressed contempt for "why did she" have to meet them. I told her that we seem to be going nowhere here, I was misled when she said she would do these things and perhaps we should just finish up the divorce.

I even called my attny this morning but he was out of the office.

She just won't get it Chack. I'm just spinning my wheels here. What do I have to look forward too? More years where the things that are most important to me are ignored?

Funny thing is that without her A, I probably would have endured being minimalized for the rest of my life. Because I took my vows seriously "for better or for worse".

But now ... I can never go back to being ignored and minimalized and basically treated like a mule. And that is what she offered me last night.

Last week she even said to me ... " I can't wait till we get back to our old ways" It sent a shiver up my back.

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