Hi guys-I don't post often unless something comes up that I could use your MB advice on. I read the posts every day but I don't feel experienced enough (as my own situation is so screwed) to offer advice.

Anyway-here is the latest.

WH called today and asked how the kids are-as he does everyday. This is pretty much the only contact we have w/ each other-just about the kids-which is kinda Plan b...I guess. So he asks about them and I tell him they are fine. He seems ill-but whatever-I don't mention it and we get off the phone.

15 minutes later the phone rings at it is him again. This is how the conversation went:

WH: What are you doing
Me: Eating lunch-what's up?
WH: Nothing-just wanted to let you know I am sorry.
Me: Oh-thats ok-I didn't even think about it-it's ok. (I'm assuming he means the earlier phone conversation)
WH: No-I mean about everything-everything I have put you through these past 6 months, for ruining your life, for everything. I thought I was unhappy so I left and ruined your life. I was thinking last night about things and I want you to know NONE of this is your fault and please know that.
Me: Ok-I understand. I want you to know I am ok and the kids are ok-we will be ok. I feel bad for you b/c you have no home, you don't see the kids everyday, you don't live w/ them.....you have nothing.
WH: I know-but that's my fault....I made my choices and now I have to live w/ them. I just want you to know I am sorry and when all this is said and done I hope that you won't hate me. You are the best mom ever and you have been so good to me.
Me: I haven't been THAT good.
WH: yeah-you have...you have been better to me than most have been. I know you don't want to talk about this-but I called a lawyer yesterday.....
Me: Oh-so THAT's why you are sorry....I get it now.
WH: no-I knew you would think I wasn't sincere if I told you that. Forget it-we will talk about that later-just know I am sorry for things ok? And I am being sincere.
Me: (crying) Ok-whatever. Just know that whatever we decide I want to make sure the kids don't suffer. they are the most important and nothing else matters.
WH: (crying) I know and I miss them SO much. I can't wait to see them this weekend. I keep their pic in my car and when I look at them I miss them SO bad.
Me: I know-and you are missing out on things you will never get back. WH please just don't ever have them in a stuation they shouldn't be in. Whoever you are dating or w/-please think of them.
WH: I will always think of them. I know you will have someone one day too-and I dred that so much....and wish you wouldn't but I know it is going to happen.
Me: I will sign whatever as long as the kids don't get hurt. It isn't what I want but I can't fix it and I can't fight it anymore. I know you will regret it but I also know at this point in time we have no marriage, no trust, and it is for the best.
WH: Yeah-I know. Anyway-sorry for making you cry.....I didn't want that-shouldn't have mentioned the lawyer. Just know I am REALLY truly sorry for everything. I'll talk to you later ok? See ya in the morning. I'll bring you breakfast. Bye
Me: ok-bye

Sorry thats so long-but it was wierd. First off for him to call and say he was sorry when we haven't even had any R talk or fights or ANYthing in weeks-maybe months. All we have done basicly is say hi-the kids are good and bye. The he calls and does this. maybe he peeked form the fog for a bit, but I know enough to know it won't last long-never does.

I also know I handled it ALL wrong and will probably get slammed for it-but I am no good at handling things when he breaks down. I know he uses that a lot-but I also know who my H was and he was a kind, loving, decent man-and when he does this I see that man peeking out again.

AHHHHHH-the confusion!

STM,

Sounds waaay to familar. WS maybe having regrets but he still wants you to fix it. If he is still seeing the OW, this c/b a tactic they have come up with to goat you into filing for him.

Seen it happen before. Lived it in fact. When he apologizes, don't downplay it. Accept it and acknowledge it. He will not expect you to take his apology without a fight. He will want you to minimize it and easy his guilt. Don't.

Instead be agreeable when he apologizes and when he suggests you do stuff (like go get the D), then you just be non-comittal either way. Don't say yes or no.

His saying about you being with another person....don't say no. Let him know if he finds someone better than your real H to let you know.

The point is to give him enough responsibility to keep him too busy to enjoy the A.

Mine did the same thing. Ooooh the OW hated me cuz I refused to play by her rules. I loved it!!! ;D

BTW, let him know if he is truly sorry, he can show it by proving he is really sorry. Fixing himself and then maybe fixing his M is still a viable option and one that would give value to his words. Actions speak louder than words. Let him know this.

L.

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Sad, not going to slam you just send you cyber hugs {{sad and tired}}. Peaking out from the fog? Maybe, or maybe just same old WS bullhockey. Get yourself a lawyer and protect your kids and your assests. Don't give it all away to WS and OW!! Please, please protect yourself.

thanks guys-especially for the HUGS!

WH says he wants the kids w/ me-he would never take them from me and that he knows the courts would laugh at him anyway. He also gives us quiet a bit of money each month-so i can't complain about that at all-and he says any amount I want is fine w/ him and we can put it in writing.

he doesn't want me to file-he says he is going to or that we can go together and do it together. I figure things w/ OW aren't good right now or he wouldn't be doing this-thats my guess.

I try to acknowledge his apologies and not downplay them, but for some reason I always end up consoling him and reassuring him. You are right-I definitely need to work on that! he IS expecting me to take care of it, he IS expecting me to make things all better and he IS still coming to me when he is having a bad day. All things I am enabling and all things I need to stop-now I just need to be strong enough to do that.....

Thanks again guys! You all are the greatest!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know-but that's my fault....I made my choices and now I have to live w/ them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This phrase just jumped out at me -

He is having second thoughts.
He feels that he can't change his mind. That he will lose face if he changes his mind and comes back to you and the children. That his decision is irreversible.

If you still want this A to end, it can. Do you want your marriage back? Do you want your family together again as it should be?

Put this in writing.

You said, I have to live with my decision. No, in fact, you do not. Just because you have seen a lawyer, does not mean you have to continue what you have started. You miss the children. This can be corrected. The door is still open to correct the terrible mistake that you have made. All you have to do is make the turn.

1. Have no further contact with OW. Sit down with me and write a letter to her, ending the relationship once and for all.

(Then continue the list, including all the things that have to happen for the marriage to be saved.)
end the letter and send it.

I see an open doorway in the statement I listed above. Don't give up until the very last avenue is traveled. Unless that is what you want - to give up, end the marriage, and go your merry way. But if that's not what you want, then fight for it. Now.

BTW, when he says there is no hope for recon now? Agree. Then let him know that as long as he 'chooses' t/b a WS, there is no hope for any kind of good recovery, just further failure.

Then remove yourself from his pity party.

L.

Thank you guys SO much for your replies and advice. It helps to know other people have went through this and know what I am talking about.

I just find it so hard to not melt into a puddle when he starts saying how sorry he is and all that crap. I know I need to be firm w/ him and let him know where I stand-that is going to be my goal now.

I am also considering writing the letter that was mentioned-laying out the conditions and all that. the only thing is he has never mentioned wanting to come back-just that he is sorry for what he did. So-I don't know if the letter would be the right thing to do. He still says there is no hope for the M and he wants a D. PLUS-I am not real sure where I stand anymore. Sometimes I just want it all OVER and done w/-other times I really want to work on it. Guess I need to figure my own feelings out first-huh?

ANyway-thanks again guys!

I would take Orchid's advice. He is an excellent candidate for reverse babble...

Never sign anything away to a man and his plate of cake...or vice versa if you're a guy reading this ok?

Your kids depend on mom to make a good decision if it ends in a divorce...not to sign things away to avoid conflict. You're separated because he has caused conflict right?

When he cries and says he's sorry for ruining your life, AGREE with him...When he says he dreads the day you get somebody new, say that YES, you will live...You hate to move on, but that's what happens when you divorce somebody and choose not to enter a convent...

One little trick that works for me is this...It really worked. I would agree with the point made by WS. Make HIM (or her) agree with same statement paraphrased by you..Then put in a valid disclaimer and leave him with foggy statement.

Example:
WH: I am so sorry I ruined everything. It's all my fault.
You: So are you saying that you ruined everything and it's your fault? Really? (Wait for him to agree ok...)
-then let him go on-
WH: And i dread the day you decide to put another man in your life..,I mean, I know it's going to happen.
You: So you're saying, and I need to get this straight, you dread for me to move on and find another man? (wait for another agreement from him)
WH: Crying...I miss the kids...
You: You miss the kids?
Now in conclusion you say something like this...
"If you're this miserable...this affair is making you this miserable since you CHOOSE now to take responsibility for ruining my life, dreading the fact you're fearful I will find somebody better, and that you're so sad without your kids..and in your own words agree to this, that you choose to do NOTHING about this? I will tell you. If you find my H, tell him that if he agrees to NC, end his affair, he might not have to keep going through all of this. Families have been saved. When you can be a H, let me know...or else I will need another course...I am not sure what it is yet, but it is what it is...(end on some mildly foggy type note).

If you get them to verbally agree to their own words of fog, it is possible the WS can "hear" a little bit. Worked with my xh before he got too foggy. I also use it in work scenarios when I deal with patients who are acting unreasonable. Getting somebody to agree to their own statements when they're wanting exactly something else from you, (validation and their way basically) is a powerful tool in negotiations. Then you slam in the solution at the end, and then pull the "carrot" or solution away from them...makes them think they have to work for it.

A form of reverse babble.

Thanks for the ideas-I will try them next time. I have to see him tomorrow-but not for long. He comes here and watches the kids while I work. He kept asking me if he could bring me breakfast and I told him "no-I will be fine" but he insisted so I told him it was fine.

He always does this-every time I start pulling away or acting as if I don't care-all the sudden he panics and decides to be "Mr. Nice guy".

Oh-and don't worry.......I won't sign anything over to him to avoid conflict. My kids are THE most important thing in the world to me and NO ONE is going to make them suffer. I am getting the house, custody of the kids, my vehicle......and he is paying me a pretty big chunk of money a month. believe me-I'm not letting him screw me!

Thanks for the concern though. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am glad to hear this.

It is just that when they hear their own words, agree to it, it seems suddenly "unfoggy" to them.

Works very well.

And if that's the case financially, then you're lucky...I fought my xh tooth and nail b/c he refused to do anything decentally or morally in the end...I get very little CS and alimony b/c he went off into fogland further and further...heck, he had already another child on the way to support.

Just make sure you feel safe with him in YOUR home visiting when you are NOT present. I know. My xh broke into my home during our D. He took very expensive watch and also attempted log ins to my computer, checked my voice mail, and caller id...he was LOOKING for remnants I was cheating like he was doing...he found nothing though. Just a quick note on that...be careful. WS are what they are...waaaaaayward.