Hi

My Squid and I are doing pretty well in recovery. However I have questions buzzing around in my head. I hope that writing them down here will help me exorcise them. I am not looking for answers. Only Squid can answer some or most of them, and she won't or can't.

******************************************

Do I REALLY love her or am I fooling myself ?

Am I a coward for not killing OM and divorcing FWW ? I could do it. Right now. So why not?

Are my friends laughing at me for my cowardice and patheticness at taking her back ?

WHY can't she look in my eyes and tell me she regrets the affair and is sorry ? WHY ? Because she DOESN'T regret the affair and she is NOT sorry. What else could I think ?

WHY did I not have the grit to divorce her on D-day ? At least served he papers to frighten her and then pull back at the last minute so she'd be grateful and submissive ?

WHY as I so PATHETIC just after D-day ?

Why am I so INCAPABLE of behaving in a vengeful/righteously indignant manner ?

How does ANY man get over the picture of his wife willingly giving herself to another man, particularly a gargoyle like OM ?

Does FWW think I'm OK with her affair because I don't abuse her and shout and cry all the time ?

Is this as good as my head, heart and life are ever going to get ?

Does FWW think I have REWARDED her for her affair ? It sure looks that way.

WHY is FWW going to stop idolising OM, she did once and believed all his bull, why is it different over time?

WHY can't she read the FACTS about OM being a scumbag ? Not my opinion but the FACTS about his petty crime, vagrancy and serial womanizing ?

Is she thinking about him every time we make love? Will she ever stop ?

He's had tens of partners in his life, I've had only one. how can I POSSIBLY have an equivalent technique?

HOW can she not apologise to me a hundred times per day if she cares for me ? I would if the situation was reversed.

I feel I have permission to experience sex and 'love' with another now. Why shouldn't I ?

How can she behave and talk like she never had an affair most of the time when it hangs like a dark-winged demon over my life at all times ?

How can she ever come to take responsibility for her affair when she thinks "It just happened" and won't study MB properly ?

WHY WON'T SHE SAY SORRY ??????

How can she continue to referee karate tournaments when OM put every word in her mouth, and probably kissed her in those refereeing clothes ? Maybe even undressed her from them.

Am I fooling myself that I am a bit of a 'catch' when the woman that has received my love all these years chose a wastrel old troll instead ?

Why can she not understand that the job she hates me doing (because it took up so much of my time - and she uses this to justify her affair as if I gave her no other choice than so to do) is what allows us the life we have? Does she want me to stay home like her wastrel OM and earn no money?

WHY does she take me for granted ?

WHY WON'T SHE SAY SORRY??????????

Why does she think Jesus doesn't love her now ?

When is she going to be able to apologise for and retract her affair fog behaviours and words? They were almost as hurtful as her affair.

HOW can she possibly smile and laugh EVER if she knew how she had devastated me and OM GF ?

How can I ever trust anything she says ever again ? EVER ? If she gave a **** she wouldn't have f'ked that old wastrel, yet now she 'loves' me ? Or does she she love her car & holidays & comfort ?

Why have I always spoiled her rotten ?

HOW can I ever believe she won;t do this again ? After all teh 'seal is broken' now. She told me on d-day she felt no guilt over having sex with OM. Maybe she feels the same now?

Why did I let myself need her so much ? Why couldn't I retain more independence all my life so this wouldn;t hav enearly killed me ?

Why am I settling for this betrayer when I might find some woman who might never betray me ?

Will I ever just be 'happy' again without the vulture of infidelity picking at the marrow of my starving life?

HOW could she do this to me? She's not a stupid woman yet she ****ed both our lives up forever and for WHAT ? Some mutual lying flattery and some seedy f'ks with a superannuated wastrel old player whom she now admits was NEVER GOING TO LEAVE HIS GF??????

What the F'K should I do for the best now? I don't want any of this ...none of it.

Thanks for letting me exorcise. I don't feel such an ungrateful freak now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob,

I know you aren't looking for answers, but I just wanted to say one thing....

I respect the He#% out of you for sticking with Squid. Leaving is the easy, cowards way out. All the plan A behaviors RH exhibited caused me to feel more shame towards myself, and more respect for him. It was hard to see the glaring differences in us at that point. But I never respected anyone more than I do him and other BS's like you than I do now. And I want to live up to his hopes, not because he expects it, but because I want to be like him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I "fell apart" more than once when the reality hit me. It was a horror unlike anything I've ever experienced. Pure hell. And it was RH's Plan A behavior that made me see the reality.

Bless You Bob!

NOW

Morning Bob, you're up late or maybe you'll see my reply in the morning. WH is coming over today (Sunday) and I'm leaving them here. He needs to spend some time with his children alone.

He still won't talk; frankly I doubt he ever will. Like Squid, I believe his A happened for a multitude of reasons (age, self-worth) but I think they feel unique. Nobody could possibly understand how they feel because this was soooo special!! I KNOW what you mean when you talk about OM's personality. To everyone else, he is a bit of a scumbag but to her he was special. Our OW plagued our house, called our kids, stalked him. If it had happened to anyone else, he'd have laughed at them. "Serves them bloody right". But no, for him, this was special because it was all about him and how it made him feel. It appears that humans crave attention and perhaps it doesn't matter who's dishing it out.

You said "Are my friends laughing at me for my cowardice and patheticness at taking her back "? I feel the opposite. I wonder if people are thinking I'm completely mad. I imagine them saying, "so what, he's had an A but he's still the father of your kids". I wonder if people don't realise how much this all dragged out and I DID give him a chance. He continued C and that was unacceptable. Your situation is somewhat different because he dumped Squid, so you probably wonder what might have happened otherwise. Whichever way round this happens, it sucks. I can't believe I will ever feel the same about my WH after this. I care about him but he makes me feel like I wasn't good enough. If he had dumped OW like a ton of hot bricks on Dday, I'm sure we'd be together now but that was his choice.

I also feel like I now have permission to have an A. I realise I have a lot of baggage but I'm fun to be around. He is not. His health has brought him down. He has a strict diet, doesn't drink, has high blood pressure, couldn't SF properly, works a 6 day week. Trust me, not a great marriage. I think that curiousity will remain with you - an eye for an eye!!

You said "Will I ever just be 'happy' again without the vulture of infidelity picking at the marrow of my starving life?" Nice dramatic imagery (yet again - the little blackbird was cute over in Iville). My take on this is it is life-changing and will always haunt me. I just can't believe that my chosen life partner would lie to me, deceive me, screw another; in short, treat me with such utter contempt so he could feel good about himself. I will use this lesson so that I am never so vulnerable again. I'm sure that is why I check in on MB most days. I am learning how to conduct a relationship in the future.

You might come to a point in your recovery where you will insist upon certain things (apologies, IC, no karate) but wouldn't it be so much better if it is volunteered rather than forced?)
And so it continues ... Yuk! TT

((((((bob)))))))

I'm sorry. I'm sorry you're still hurtin' so bad but I'm not suprised. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It hasn't been that long yet....I know it seems at times like it has been forever,,,but it hasn't.

You see, I'm 7 years into recovery and rebuilding our marriage and I STILL don't have the answers to all those questions. And I doubt I ever will. Have I asked? Yes, most of them,,but the answers don't seem to make sense,,not to me,,not to him.

After several years it's almost as though you are talking about other people,,another life,,a different time. Because you really ARE no longer those same people. It's NOT the same marriage,,she is NO longer a WS or in a fog, you are no longer the blind spouse.. nor is the pain that gut wrenching stabbing ache....

Time and lots of love heals....

It DOES get better Bob,,,promise.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Bob Pure,

You are the man!! Believe me. I never post here, but lurk and I have followed your story so much and it has helped me so much!!.

I have a very similar situation. Similar D-day, except my WW still says she's "in love" with OM.

You are a better person for going through this as we all are.

Your questions are very real to me today because I found out again that she had phone contact. She wrote OM NC letter on Jan 5, 2005 and today I found out she had called him yesterday.

And it is so hard to recover!!! She told me again she would stop contact, but said she can not committ to our M.... Only wants to wait until she has "enough" money before she leaves.

So, today when I saw your message I can totally relate.

Please contact me at me email: cs_383@yahoo.com

Thanks very much!

D-day : Aug 18, 2004
NC letter: Jan 5, 2005
recovery???? seemed like it

WS resumed contact Feb. '05

Again says NC......

Well, I would say you are hitting a pretty normal part of recovery where the relief wears off and anger sets in. It is completely normal to feel anger and to wonder if you are "settling" for damaged goods and/or being a chump.

You look at her and are resentful that she does not suffer as you do. But Bob, my friend, while you will not always feel like this, it is a normal part of recovery and this is what you signed on for when you agreed to keep her.

I know all these feelings WELL, Bob. As I endured them for about 18 months. They would come in cycles. I would build up, explode, feel better, build up, explode........... The explosions became milder every month and then I started skipping them.

After about a year and a half a good friend pointed out to me: "Mel, you are just LOOKING for grievances." And he was right. It was then that I decided to move forward, my grieving was done. Since that moment, I have concentrated on making my marriage GREAT because we are now in the black. And you will get in the black, Bob, but you have to recover first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can she ever come to take responsibility for her affair when she thinks "It just happened" and won't study MB properly ?

WHY WON'T SHE SAY SORRY ??????
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This will come. She had to build defensive mechanisms in order to justify her crimes during her affair. She is still emotionally invested in her rationalizations. They have not worn off yet. But it will come the farther away she gets from her affair.

Hang in there, Bob. It is a roller coaster but you have us to vent to! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 26, 2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

{{{bob}}} 'nuff said.

Yes, these questions haunt me as well.
Like you, I wonder what other people are thinking(although I know that no one else should matter). Unlike you, I KNOW that my family cannot believe that I am still here, and that they have lost a little respect for me. I even think his family feels a little less repect for me, but worry if I leave they won't get to see the kids!
I also feel like I have the right to do whatever I want when it comes to affairs and love. For the first couple days, I looked at guys and thought, I could pick up this guy and my H would know how it feels. I thought/and still sometimes think, I will never be able to forgive him unless I can do it too. I know, that's absurb, but I think even BS have some irrational thoughts.
Also like you, my H was with a woman who was very experienced, and he was my one and only, and I wonder how I could ever compare. In fact, he has told me that she was a better conversationalist, and made him feel so good, even while telling him the same things I was telling him; so how can I ever live up to her? I wasn't enough then, why would I be enough now or in the future.
So, you are not alone in your thoughts! I have also read your story, and was going to post to you about forgiveness, but I don't want to threadjack anymore than I already have, so that will have to wait!
Thank you for your post, and keep asking questions; you'll learn the truth eventually!
True

Bob-

I just wanted to let you know how much I admire you. I too believe it to be a far more noble thing to stay and make it work than to abandon ship.

People thinking less of you...hmmmmmmmm, I think that people probably think a lot less of me. They have basically told me as much, and I'm not even in recovery yet, they view my saving my marriage as weak, this is not a view I happen to share, as it would be infinitely easier to just give up than it would be to fight so long and so hard to save my M.

This certainly isn't for the faint of heart, and you've come through with flying colors....and yes, you deserve to be told that she's sorry, and I believe she will come to that realization in time.

I don't think that my WH will think it's necessary to apologize to me (He's already making reconcilation rumblings), I think that the simple fact that I get to have the honor of having him back will be apology enough (Not hardly buddy...LOL).

For what it's worth, just wanted to support you.

-Caren

Bob, I'm still asking myself at least half of your questions. I had some insights that I might share over on Recovery. They have to do with the crazed mind and soul of a WS/FWS. It really is about their dysfunction Bob. Unfortunately we got sucked into that dysfunction. One realization after a year of this sh** is that H's dysfunction hasn't gone away. The hole inside of him that created the need for an A is still there. And you know what Bob? Only he can fix it. Just like your W ultimately will have to make the decision to get healthy. You can love her, which you have. But she has to allow the love in and hopefully love you back before it's too late.

Truthfully I don't know how you have lasted this long without some serious A talk. As Steve Harley says, "cleaning out the wound." Your W seems to be going on as if all is right with the world. Meanwhile you and your M are still bleeding. I guess I have a question that some of the old timers might like to comment on. In Bob's case how long should he Plan A while his W is still denying and avoiding the consequences of the A? Should it be as long as he can tolerate and hopefully she will finally defog and give Bob what he needs? Or at some point does Bob need to tell his W, "Squid honey, the way we're dealing with your A ain't working for me. It's seriously withdrawing from my love bank. I know you don't want to face what occurred, but we need to do the recovery together."

Bob, sorry this is so long, but I need to share something I read today. I am reading the book "Forgive and Forget." The author talks about how some wrongs require repentance in order for the relationship to truly heal. He says the following are requirements.

1) THE LEVEL OF PERCEPTION: "The first awakening moment dawns when you see your own action through another's eyes. You perceive that their feelings about what you did are true...You see that they are right when they say that what you did to them was mean and unfair and insufferable."

2) THE LEVEL OF FEELING: "You move now from perception to pain. Here you 'feel' the pain that you made someone else feel. You share the hurt that you inflicted. You somehow enter another's soul and share his suffering...The family name of this pain is 'guilt'."

3) THE LEVEL OF CONFESSION: "When you can tell those you hurt that you realize what you did was intolerable and that you share their pain, you reach the level of confession. If they believe you, your separate sadnesses begin to melt into one...When you confess to another person, you do not merely admit that you did something; you tell the person you hurt that you hurt too, with the very hurt that you hurt them with, and that you want terribly to be forgiven."

4) THE LEVEL OF PROMISE: "If you know and genuinely feel the wrongness of what you did, you also feel a passionate desire not to hurt again. So you make a promise."

Bob, until I read this I couldn't put my finger on what I still needed from my H. I realize now that #2 and #3 have still not occurred yet.

Sending a big hug Bob. "A"s suck big time!!! CV

Bob, I don't think you are looking for answers or analysis concerning these thoughts and questions, so I'm not going to offer any. Just a couple of comments and then back in your court with the ball. I'll stand ready if you want more...if not...we each have to handle things in our own way and as the Lord enables us.

So..., for the comments:

Why am I settling for this betrayer when I might find some woman who might never betray me ?

I don't know the answer to this question for you. For me, it's two reasons; (1)Because despite it all I love my wife, and (2) Because there is NO guarantee that any other woman would not also wind up betraying a marriage.

Bob, virtually every question or thought you stated I have shared, and for the most part still share. THAT is one of the things that I "accepted" when I chose to stay and try to recover my marriage.

As I see it, I have forgiven the sin, but the consequences will likely be around for the rest of my life to one degree or another. Unlike God, while I am able with His help to not "dwell" on the adultery, I am not able to "forget it." God gave us a memory that is created in His image, and God never forgets anything. But we are "fallen and flawed" and do not have the ability to put it so far away in our thoughts that it is "as if" the thoughts were gone forever. What we DO is to lean on God's strength and wait patiently in the hope of a better future. TODAY can seem tough, full of questions and doubts, but tomorrow will in large part be shaped by what we DO today, even when assailed by those dark thoughts.

"Take up your cross and follow me." It has a lot more meaning to me today than it did before my life was touched by the sin of adultery. Now I have a better, though imperfect and incomplete, understanding of just how horrible adultery is to God and how tremendously He loves us to have sacrificed Himself for us while we lost in adultery from Him.

"From whom much has been forgiven, much is expected." Once again, God's parables hit home like never before. It HURTS. Christ KNOWS this, having experienced it Himself personally. And God understands the thoughts and how terribly hard this particular sin is for humans, especially for our "one flesh" condition. THAT is WHY it is the one reason that He gives for ending a marriage that He had joined together.

Bob.....just a hug of understanding and sharing (((((Bob Pure)))))

If you'll pardon the poor English....It AIN'T easy! But our hope is in the LORD.

One parting thought of a small piece of Scripture that has taken on a whole new meaning to me...perhaps you'd like to embrace it and the hope it also contains....

"Love covers over a multitude of sins."

God bless.

<small>[ February 26, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: ForeverHers ]</small>

Do I REALLY love her or am I fooling myself ? Yeah, I think you know the answer to this one... Bob, your ACTIONS are showing Squid that you love her... only YOU can say if you're fooling yourself or not.

Am I a coward for not killing OM and divorcing FWW ? I could do it. Right now. So why not? Nope. You're not a coward... You've come to the same conclusion that came to... it's not worth ruining your life, your kids lives, or Squid's life by killing the OM. Give God a chance for HIS judgement...

WHY can't she look in my eyes and tell me she regrets the affair and is sorry ? WHY ? Because she's probably not able to do so yet... give her time... keep loving her... keep providing that safe place for her... and keep gently prodding her towards MC.

WHY did I not have the grit to divorce her on D-day ? At least served he papers to frighten her and then pull back at the last minute so she'd be grateful and submissive ? I expect it was probably for the same reasons that I didn't... I didn't want to divorce my W.

How does ANY man get over the picture of his wife willingly giving herself to another man, particularly a gargoyle like OM ? One image at a time... one movie at a time... one minute at a time... one hour at a time... one day at a time... The WILL fade Bob...

I feel I have permission to experience sex and 'love' with another now. Why shouldn't I ? I think a better question would be "Why SHOULD you?"

WHY does she take me for granted ? Again, perhaps she's not capable of meeting all of your needs right now... she will get there.

WHY WON'T SHE SAY SORRY?????????? Perhaps she's to ashamed right now... remember, she's dealing with a lot of stuff right now, just like you are... as long as she progressing and moving forward, "I'm sorry" will eventually come...

HOW can she possibly smile and laugh EVER if she knew how she had devastated me and OM GF ? So would you rather she go around crying all of the time and asking for you to forgive her? Bob, she know's what she's done... it will take time for her to express her sorrow to you... perhaps not with words right away, but with her actions...and remember, her ACTIONS should be speaking much louder than her words <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Why am I settling for this betrayer when I might find some woman who might never betray me ? Why are you??? I don't feel like I "settled" for some betrayer... I chose my W and the mother of my daughters. If you really feel like this, then why don't you divorce squid?

Will I ever just be 'happy' again without the vulture of infidelity picking at the marrow of my starving life? YES! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What the F'K should I do for the best now? I don't want any of this ...none of it. Thanks for letting me exorcise. I don't feel such an ungrateful freak now.

Bob, you're doing great.... I hope you don't take any offense to any of my answers... I'm glad that you're working through all of this... keep loving Squiddy... and let me know if there's anything I can help you with! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

Thanks everyone. I will respond properly later.

Just know that I needed to writ ethese questions down and look at them in order to exorcise their power over my imagination.

i DO love Squid.

* CV55 we've had LOTS of affair discussions. LOTS. We did nothing else for a months right after d-day but all I got was justifying fog babble.
I'm not in Plan A, the affair is over and dead with NC in place since September 16th. Squid has made huge efforts on our PRACTICAL recovery since then. We ar edefinitely in recovery not plan A.

In truth maybe I have received an answer to all my questions but I'm hoping those answers will change over time. Naive ? Probably, but many FWS on here report a change in attitude to the A after time has passed in recovery.

The one big one to me is the honest, deep apology. Squid has apologised for hurting me but said right after d-day that she regretted hurting me but not having the affair.

When I have mentioned to her since ( many times) that I do not believe I got an apology from her, she says " Yes you did!" and " Why torture me?" and "you should know how I feel" and " well, maybe I've changed my mind about the f'king affair" etc etc.

It is absolutely clear to me that Squid is wracked right now over teh A, over the imminent death of her Mom and many other family problems that are around her right now.

Friend RIF and Orchid counselled me to give Squid a stable and safe platform where she can 'dare' to discuss her affair without fear of my reaction leading to divorce. Thats what I have been trying to do.

And this is my first rant in AGES. We're doing really very well. Its only been seven months since the d-day of a dreadfully entangled affair

We'll be fine. I just needed to write those Q's down.

Bob,

Why don't you write your questions down and give them to Squid, telling her you need her answers to the questions for you to get over her infidelity?

That way she really gets to know what's bothering you and she has time to think them over before answering you.

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 04:05 AM: Message edited by: RAG ]</small>

RAG I've asked her all the reasonable questions.

I won't press now, as shes got bigger problems than this to deal with.

I don;t know where the forum idea comes from that Squid and I haven't had BIG a discussions. We've had LOTS and still do but they're very traumatic sessions and I haven't heard the non-fogged answers to some yet.

Squid is more closed that I would like yes, but at least honest.

Bob, sorry! I used the term Plan A incorrectly. Even though my H gave up OW fairly quickly after d-day I felt like I plan Aed for months. Basically doing all the actions of Plan A to help him get through withdrawal. Maybe a better way to phrase it is I was the major "Giver" for months.

By "A talks" I am talking about having some real discussions about some of the questions you posed. Sorry if I misunderstood your need to just get them out here on MB, as apposed to having the need to talk to your W about it. I do believe that in order for we BSs to feel safe at some point we need to believe our FWSs understand why they had the A and how and what are they doing to protect their weaknesses.

I'm glad you're feeling better! CV

CV I agree with every word you say ! I am the major giver, but at least I understand why nowadays.

Squid was smitten with OM and I busted & smashed the A just as it hit its peak. And Squid has ALWAYS had a terrible problem with attribution ( accepting rightful blame). She's never been 'in trouble' in all her life, and now she finds herslef guilty of a heinous betrayal.

I'd just like some certainty. I almost miss that from plan A. I'll be OK. {{{CV}}}

Actually, having just re-read this thread, Squid has a huge amount to deal with if her mum is dying. It's bound to be a stressful, trying time for the two of you. Infidelity and death - that really is as bad as it gets. I'm so sorry you are going through such a sad phase in your lives. TT

:::::::I will use this lesson so that I am never so vulnerable again. I'm sure that is why I check in on MB most days. I am learning how to conduct a relationship in the future.

TT, Hi - the stupid thing is that next time you could be with someone so totally wonderful that he wouldnt dream of cheating on you. But you will hold back some of yourself, and that won't be fair on him. But that's life isn't it? The next man to fall in love with you will love the entire you - and that is someone who's been badly hurt by a very stupid man who didn't realise what an incredible gem he had for a wife. I always think your H is such a nob! Btw was at Ikea today for lunch - thought we'd see you there???!!!

Bob's post was very upsetting coz I'm a bit further on now and it drags it all up and puts me back there with him. It made me cry. My words to Bob are to listen to ML. She is right.

an

Bob, what you and I have in common is that our S's As ended while still in the God-awful in-love stage. I will say that I believe my H is over the witch. And if this gives you any hope, he had her on such a pedestal. She was the princess who was perfect as his office manager and would never lie to him. She totally accepted him. Now he looks back and sees the lies and manipulation that she used on him.

Something hit me the other day. I have no problem posting to BSs who are dealing with an active WS or a fogged out, withdrawing FWS. The reason is that that period for me was very painful, but also very strategic. NC is NC. The fogged out statements the WS makes are actually kind of funny and so we look at them as aliens. This recovery road is way harder in certain ways. We are faced with the reality of what our M may or may not be. Because ultimately we can't control the effort our FWSs will put into the recovery. And if you are anything like me, after what I've been through, I won't stand for dysfunction or a lesser M. I won't write anymore since I just rambled on about dysfunction for the last hour over on Recovery. Thanks for the hug Bob! We'll get through this one way or another! CV