Bob, most of what I felt when reading your post had been said but I would like to add or repeat a few things that stood out to me.


Are you a coward?
Hell no, I still struggle with that on a regular basis. I actually went so far as to go to my attorny and ask what would happen if different senerious played out. I did go to confront OM on d-day but he was waiting and tried to shoot me. I think it has taken much more courage not to hurt my family by restraining myself than to do what I though/think a real man should do. As I said, I still struggle with this but I know what is right and I know you do to.

Are your friends laughing at you?
This is another one that I really struggled with. In my case we lived in my very small home town where EVERYONE knew me and my family. I was humiliated. The A was THE talk of the town and I thought the same thoughts you expressed. Much to my surprise as time went on people I barley knew in some cases stopped me or Mrs. E to tell us how much they admired what I was doing and that in this day and age I was to be commended.

Is this as good as my head will get.
NOPE!

Does FWW think I think the A was okay because I don't yell and scream?
One of the most shocking and hard to figure out lessons I have learned in R is that while I have been able to forgive Mrs. E she is unable to forgive herself. What I thought was her just wanting to avoid the fact that the A happened was really self preservation or her part. The shame and guilt that she feels runs so deep that it is extremely difficult for her to face the reality of her actions. With time that is getting better. Screaming and yelling would only retard the process.

How can she not apoligize 100's of times a day? I would.
I thought this exact same thing and it made me feel that she wasn't sorry, the real answer? See answer to above question.

How can she smile and laugh ever?
Let me give you an example. The worst thing to ever happen to Mrs. E and I, yes even worse than the A, was when our son died. My W took a leave of absense from work, well because she was unable to function truth be known. Anyway, one day one of her co-workers asked her if she could call Mrs. E at home and I told her I thought that would be nice. A short time later she was telling the whole building how wonderfully Mrs. E was doing and how she was laughing on the phone. The fact was she could barley drag herself out of bed each day and prayed that GOd would let her join our son in heavan. Yes on rare occasions she laughed but that didn't mean the hurt and pain was gone.

I'm going to roll a couple of questions together. Why can't she see the facts about OM and what he is and what does she want me to do stay home like OM and earn no money? Doesn't she see it is the job she hates that gives us the life we have?
Oh my friend this is a big ol' flag to me. I was working about 45 hours or so a week for someone else then working 2 or 3 hours minimum each night, and 12 to 16 hour days almost every weekend running my own business. Now we had one of the nicest homes in that area of the country and all the toys that money could buy but.... OM gave Mrs. E time. In our case OM was a convicted felon, had never owned his own home, had had his one pride and joy a 8 year old Jeep reposessed three times and when we had him thrown in jail for stalking he listed his assets as $30 cash. You know what he gave Mrs. E? His time!! Take a step back and make sure there is a happy medium between providing for your family and being there for them.

Don't know if any of this will help but they hit really close to home for me so I thought I would respond.

Hang in there, and always remember IT'S A GREAT DAY TO BE ALIVE!!!!!! I know you hate that but I still thought you needed to hear it.

BP,

Just now got to read your thread. It could have been me writing that. Well probably not, but I am thinking those things.

You are right, ...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">However I have questions buzzing around in my head. I hope that writing them down here will help me exorcise them. I am not looking for answers. Only Squid can answer some or most of them, and she won't or can't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do you deal with that Bob? My WW has no apparently has no idea what she has done, what she continues to do by her avoidance.

I find myself thinking many times a week, I wish we were divorced already, because WW is not participating beyond telling me she "wants" to save the M. But she "does" nothing except fill her own needs.

She doesn't get it. Won't even try.

.

Hey Anyname, So glad you're back in town. And yes, my WH is a nob!! I nearly went to Ikea but had a massage at the Peninsula instead!! (Xmas gift). Sorry Bob.

Bob,

I have the same questions going around in my head. Speacially today since last night we had a fight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Now I feel so down, like the great times we had in the last weeks never existed.

"WHY is FWW going to stop idolising OM, she did once and believed all his bull, why is it different over time?"

And the answer is that WS will never get the OP out from their system completely. That's why NC for life is so important. Same with any drug. One taste of wine can get an alcoholic back to drinking after decades of being sober. OP will always have a room in our WS's hearts, and that hurts like hell because it is a room that should be ours to occupy. We will always share them with OP. It's a choice we make and I don't think that it will get any better with time. Which brings me to the following,

I feel I have permission to experience sex and 'love' with another now. Why shouldn't I ?

He's had tens of partners in his life, I've had only one. how can I POSSIBLY have an equivalent technique?

I'm in the same position as your are. My WW is the only woman I have ever been with, and I think that has caused me a lot of trouble (insecurities) but I don't think they will go away by me f'cking OW. I don't want to, I want to do and learn everything with the woman I love. Of course I would like the situation to be symmetrical, but it is not and there is nothing I can do to change it.
About the equivalent technique if I remember right Squidi's OM was not a sex god and his equipment was not so good. I can not say the same about my WW XBF <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

WHY does she take me for granted ?

You are a good man and love your wife very much, and yes she takes that for granted because of that. You stuck with her even after she did the worst. This is your greatest weakness but also your greatest strength. WS know that we loved them dearly and they know we know that we can loose them at any time, and that is scary.


F'ck!!!! I hate my self today. W is up, better go see how I can make things better.

Hi BP,

Thanks for your post. I have been feeling the same things in the last few days and I thought I was crazy or doing something wrong. FWH and I went to show where it all began...and C restarted in June '04...plug Dday anniv is coming up...yuk....I tried to explain to FWH, but he only understands to a point which is saying something because befoe he understood nothing.

I am working on M...but not so much today....too many ghosts and need to do something to help me...in Dr. Harley's article about resentment which I feel, there is a passage about is it resentment over the A or because your EN's are not being met. For me it is mostly the latter...I am dragging FWH thru MB coaching and it is helping, but I get tired to leading that process.

Just wanted to send hugs....and support and thank you for expressing truth. ss

Well, I'll start by pointing out that as far as I know those are all normal questions for you to be asking yourself at this stage.

What's not normal is that you managed to get them all into one post. I'd be like, "oh, I forgot this one..." 45 seconds after I hit 'reply'. Every time.

Anyway, there was one thing that popped out at me:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by b0b pure*:
<strong>And Squid has ALWAYS had a terrible problem with attribution ( accepting rightful blame). She's never been 'in trouble' in all her life, and now she finds herslef guilty of a heinous betrayal.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wonder how much a role this plays. In my wife's case, I am suspicious that this is a major factor. She has always represented the pinnacle of morality and sacred truth for as long as I've known her. I always thought of myself as slightly jaded whereas she was untouchable.

Her affair and subsequent actions surprised me way more than they hurt me. And I was hurt pretty bad.

Anyway, the point is that now it seems like she's stuck and I'm wondering how much a role this might be playing. Sometimes it seems like this has created a 'short circuit' in her thinking and she just can't accept it and consequently she can't deal with it and consequently we cannot move forward.

I know it's more complicated than that, but I'm wondering if it's playing a role nonetheless.

dewt

FH,

In seven months of wonderful responses to me THIS one from you is the most inspirational and touching. Even moreso than your 'true forgiveness' thread.

Why am I settling for this betrayer when I might find some woman who might never betray me ?

I don't know the answer to this question for you. For me, it's two reasons; (1)Because despite it all I love my wife, and (2) Because there is NO guarantee that any other woman would not also wind up betraying a marriage.
Very true. I needed someone to remind me of this.

As I see it, I have forgiven the sin, but the consequences will likely be around for the rest of my life to one degree or another.

magnificent. You simply verbalise what I have been struggling with.I am ALLOWED to hate the consequences of her affair and deal with them. recognising and dealing with consequences is not backsliding on my commitment to forgive Squid. Thank you.

Unlike God, while I am able with His help to not "dwell" on the adultery, I am not able to "forget it." God gave us a memory that is created in His image, and God never forgets anything. But we are "fallen and flawed" and do not have the ability to put it so far away in our thoughts that it is "as if" the thoughts were gone forever. What we DO is to lean on God's strength and wait patiently in the hope of a better future. TODAY can seem tough, full of questions and doubts, but tomorrow will in large part be shaped by what we DO today, even when assailed by those dark thoughts.
Agreed. When I look back God has never failed me. I should have an inspirational witness, but still have only a mustard seed of faith. Annoying how God gives us the faith we need, not a comfortable surfeit for us play 'holy roller' with isn't it ? Does overconfident faith cease to be faith and become expectation or assumption? I must pray more. And dig out my concordance.

"Take up your cross and follow me." It has a lot more meaning to me today than it did before my life was touched by the sin of adultery. Now I have a better, though imperfect and incomplete, understanding of just how horrible adultery is to God and how tremendously He loves us to have sacrificed Himself for us while we lost in adultery from Him.
again, magnificently simple. Jesus did not command us to work out and resolve all cares and mortal imperfections and follow him only as pure disciples. He exhorted us to carry our crosses WITH us as a reminder of our fallen nature and that we live in the mortal, secular world of troubles. Even Paul had a 'thorn in his side'.

I must carry my cross and follow Jesus, not hope for some day when I feel unburdened enough so to do. It is time NOW , cross and all.

"From whom much has been forgiven, much is expected." Once again, God's parables hit home like never before. It HURTS. Christ KNOWS this, having experienced it Himself personally. And God understands the thoughts and how terribly hard this particular sin is for humans, especially for our "one flesh" condition. THAT is WHY it is the one reason that He gives for ending a marriage that He had joined together.

Bob.....just a hug of understanding and sharing (((((Bob Pure)))))

If you'll pardon the poor English....It AIN'T easy! But our hope is in the LORD.

One parting thought of a small piece of Scripture that has taken on a whole new meaning to me...perhaps you'd like to embrace it and the hope it also contains....

"Love covers over a multitude of sins."

God bless.

Thank you so very much. Again

Bob -

This really hit home. Although I am not in recovery - yet? - I have so many of these questions rolling around in my head constantly. I wnted to pick a few out...


<strong> I feel I have permission to experience sex and 'love' with another now. Why shouldn't I ? </strong>

Been there, done that....was an empty and altogether unrewarding experience. I don't feel guilt over it, but I do feel like a smaller person. I did it for revenge, and revenge never really satisfies long-term. You will be disappointed.


<strong>Am I fooling myself that I am a bit of a 'catch' when the woman that has received my love all these years chose a wastrel old troll instead ?</strong>

This seems to be a common thread amongst WS' OPs. For soome reason, the OP tends to be a person who is somewhat "beneath" you and your WW's position in life. I know many here may think this is we BS'es projecting our bias onto the OP, but I really think there is something to this trend.


<strong>Why can she not understand that the job she hates me doing (because it took up so much of my time - and she uses this to justify her affair as if I gave her no other choice than so to do) is what allows us the life we have? Does she want me to stay home like her wastrel OM and earn no money?</strong>

This one hits me the hardest. My thoughts EXACTLY. I feel I was caught in the ol' catch 22...if I had stayed home more, and worked less, I could just see my W being so angry at me for being too lazy....'tis the curse of the driven.


<strong>Why am I settling for this betrayer when I might find some woman who might never betray me ?</strong>

Another good question. I am of the belief that there are some people in this world who are morally (genetically?) incapable of having an A. They would leave and D before crossing the line into A land. I sometimes wonder if I don't deserve better, someone who at least has a "clean slate".


I feel for you, Bob. I sure hope that over the coming months all your questions will be answered, and all the answers will be the right ones.


TM

Bob--It seems to me you want your wife to be constantly telling you she is sorry for having the affair. You want her to crying to you 24-7, that she is sorry for betraying you. YOu have not forgivven her, you are very resentful towards her still, and she knows this!!! Telling you she is deeply sorry for the affair and hurting you is not the number one on her mind right now. She has her mom to worry about and I am sure other things too. YOu should try to "really" understand her pain and worries.

FrederickGirl,

I’ve read some of your other posts too and you seem very hostile & unsympathetic towards BS’s. Why is that? Why don’t you rather share your story and seek help for your own situation? Your posts to BS’s here is not helpful at all…

It’s clear that you don’t have any understanding or empathy for the pain of a BS/FBS and that you don’t understand the process of forgiveness. I hope this thread will give you some understanding and insight into the process of forgiveness...

Suzet

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FrederickGirl:
<strong> Bob--It seems to me you want your wife to be constantly telling you she is sorry for having the affair. You want her to crying to you 24-7, that she is sorry for betraying you. YOu have not forgivven her, you are very resentful towards her still, and she knows this!!! Telling you she is deeply sorry for the affair and hurting you is not the number one on her mind right now. She has her mom to worry about and I am sure other things too. YOu should try to "really" understand her pain and worries. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you DARE tell me I should try to understand my wife's pain and worries unless you know my story.
Don't you DARE tell me who I have forgiven and who I have not.
Don't you DARE tell me what I want and what I don't.

Who the F'K are YOU to tell me in your expertise what we should do during this most horrible time of our lives ?

Bob,.YOu are so angry, its scary.
Good luck with you wife.

FG you are so provocative, assumptive and patronising but not scary, just annoying.

Thanks for your good wishes with my wife. Earnestly meant I feel sure. Not.

Bob- YOu are kind of annyoing too, but I still wish you good luck with your wife. I really do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Don't feed the trolls.

Copied a post I left on I'm-not-a-loser's thread. Seemed apropos to here too;

FrederickGirl - I've gone back and read every post you have made since joining back in Oct, all 16 of them.

IF you want to be taken seriously, don't you think it's time you told us all your story, how infidelity has touched your life, WHY you are even on this site?

So far you have spouted a few opinions, such as your "I'll give it eight months to see if it's real" statement on one of the threads. Not sure what made you the "expert," or the experience you have on which to make your suggestions and advice.

So you could help your own cause quite a bit by filling us all in on your own situation and what brought you here to Marriage Builders.

OR not. The choice is always up to the individual.

Dear Bob,

You are a brave, courageous man. Your wife is a lucky woman.

As already said, don't feed the trolls. That poster is a provocateur (sp?). Ignore her.

I have followed your story as your timline is similar to mine. I think some of what you're feeling is related to the timing of things. The first 3-6 months of recovery are frequently spent (by the FBS) holding up the FWS, who is nearly non-functional, due to guilt, shame, and grief.

My now-RWH certainly was an emptional mess. So, there I was (in my situation) caring for 3 kids, working at my own job, taking care of the house, volunteering at church, AND taking care of H, who, as stated before, was a mess, emotionally. What about me, the FBW? or yourself? Or any FBS? Well, during the crisis, I pushed my needs/feelings into the background.

Then, at around 6 months post DDay, the FWS starts to perk up, come around. And THEN, the FBS starts to look inward, to re-assess how things feel. And not everything feels good.

The questions: My H does not like A discussions. I think it is shameful for many FWSs to talk about the A. I know Harley says that talking about the A is 'cleaning out the wound', but I am not sure I agree anymore.

Certainly, you have to know it's over, what went wrong to get to that point, but at some point, maybe enough is enough.

It's Lent right now. I was in church yesterday. The pastor preached about sin and forgiveness. I have begun to think of the A in terms of the parable of The Prodigal Son. I think of my H as having been dead during the A. He was dead to me emtionally. He was emotionally absent to our kids. He admits he felt dead spiritually, like God had forsaken him.

Well, how lucky, how fortunate, how blessed I am that we have this second chance. If his body had died, I would be a widow. Instead, his spirit, his psyche, although deeply wounded, is capable of recovery.

Certainly, we need to continue to work on our R, to safeguard it from another A.

Re your remarks on having permission to have your own A: That would be a revenge A. Reflect on the pain, the unspeakable agony your W's A caused you. Would you wish that pain for her? I have thought about this. The truth is I love my RWH far too much to ever want him to suffer as I did.

I wish you the best in the days to come.
----------------------------------------
me-RBS-50 RWH-44 M-20 yrs. 3 kids
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/Fog-5/04-9/04 NCltr9/3/04 In recovery with God's help

FrederickGirl,

This is a marriage building SUPPORT site!!

Hey Bob - Pay no attention to the trolls... You're doing the right things to rebuild your M... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Bob (and I hope this gets through to everyone else reading as well)

I'm so close to leaving MB. I just have nothing to offer any more. I'm living a normal married life with a husband I love, who loves me and I find it hard to even relate to people's stories any more, much as I'd like to.

I just want to talk about work and my little day to day happenings and it just doesn't seem to fit on the board any more. I'm at a place where I was three years ago when, if I'd found a board like this I'd have thought, how terrible for all these people.

What I'm talking about is true, true recovery. Isn't that what you want?

Jen