Withdrawal. It's still pretty hardcore. I think there was finally some closure last night with the OM but it's still going to be around for awhile anyways. And, the obstacle looming behind THAT is all the resentment my W has for the times I have neglected her in the last 6 years. I think that she has already made the decision in her heart to leave me, but she has stayed for the kids sake. That won't last for long, and she's stubborn too. Plus, I think she feels a very strong lure to do the dating she missed out on by being together with me since high school. I know she's curious about other guys.

I've been working on myself, trying to identify and meet her needs, and trying not to LB, but it's not going to do a bit of good if her mind's already set to go.

"I think that she has already made the decision in her heart to leave me, "

bass...

she cant make a decision about you right now if her heart is still tied to the OM. She is not thinking logically, with her mind, but with her emotions driven from the A.

Ride it out if she is truly your love in life. Give it all youve got, focus on being you, but also strong and stable for her. You just punched your ticket, get ready for the rollercoaster ride!

Know this, if in your heart, she is the love of your life and you are able to express it to her, when she DOES come out of the fog, she will hopefully see the man she fell in love with years ago, and your M will be stronger for it.

Never would have believed it if I hadnt been thru it myself.

Hang in there BS, keep your dignity and sanity, as hard as it may seem to do

beavis

Yeah, the stuff I have learned from HN,HN and SAA are the only things keeping my hope alive now. I want to believe it can happen, but it's like believing it's going to rain tomorrow...I can wish all I want, but it's going to stay dry unless some clouds come by...I can't MAKE it rain.

Very frustrating. But I'm a controlling person at times, and this is teaching me some important lessons on THAT topic, at the very least.

"But I'm a controlling person at times, and this is teaching me some important lessons on THAT topic, at the very least."

GOOD!

Because that wont help matters one bit...

Affairs 101, a learning experience, but a class nobody voluntarily signs up for....

beavis

Well now, you all have given me quite a lot to think about! What a blessing to have such friends!

Karegh, yes you make sense and you are very intuitive. I do believe there is still some withdrawal going on, otherwise OM wouldn’t linger in my brain. And yes, resentment against my H for things in the past. There was a bunch of disconnection dating way back 11 years ago when we had our twins. We already had a 1 year old, then 2 babies on top of that. Survival mode – me taking care of babies, H working (I’m sure the same story of millions!). Both just trying to make it through the day. Well, I felt “abandoned” with our new family and I think that’s where some of our issues began. We muddled through the subsequent years but never addressed some of those important things.

So, Pepper, some of your questions are definitely applicable to me & our M. The distance protects me from being hurt after perceiving that my H withdrew from the family to do his job and tend to his own issues. He has depression in his family and deals with it as well. Stress is very hard on him, which is one reason why I probably “tolerated” his tendency to be self-absorbed. Instead of working together, we worked independently. This is probably way more than anyone wants to read about, but I believe I later pushed H away as a sort of “punishment” for the abandonment. Fear of rejection? Probably fear of being emotionally rejected. The distance as an excuse for the A? Positively no! The distance was there way before the EA. I NEVER had even considered an A. I think I filled the holes left by the missing EN’s with my family life, church life, friends, etc for a long time. I unknowingly succumbed to OM filling needs I didn’t realize I had.

Bassistist, your W and I are in similar places. There are long-standing issues in our M’s. Wanting the M to be good but questioning if the love will come back. My H is wondering too. We have great examples from the people posting here that tell us it can come back. This “thing” your W & I are stuck in has a hold on us. We want so badly to move past it, but it holds on and is a fight all the way. Our brain knows it’s logical to let go, but the heart is still afraid to let go of that something that was filling our needs. Yes, we were wrong and put it on ourselves, but we are working hard to go forward. Please give her time. When the grip loosens, THEN we can concentrate on our H’s & M’s. Don’t give up, that’s what I would want someone to tell my H.

Gentlsoul, you are a great example of working hard and doing the right things to get back on the right road. Thank you for continuing to reinforce those things with me. You & Beavis really worked hard together on this one. I am trying to bridge the gaps between my H & I, but I think it’s going to be in small steps rather than huge leaps.

Thank you all!

Well Cards, you and my wife have a lot in common. You see, we have two sets of twins, that are about 2 years apart. And about 13 months after the second set was born, I was sent on a six month deployment, so that my wife was forced to deal with all four of them by herself during that time.

And I can relate to your husband...when I'm stressed, I tend to introvert.

But...given those similarities, I hope that it gives YOU hope that you'll make it. The love really can come back friend...it takes time, and it takes healing on both sides. Both of you are wounded right now, in different ways, but still wounded. Give the wounds a little time to heal, and while you're doing that, try to nurse each other's hurts where you can. You'll be surprised at how much it helps you to help others.

Hang in there...there is light at the end of the tunnel!!

Gentlesoul:

GS: Thank you for the kind words. Everyday you are a source of inspiration for me and others here as well. I truly am blessed to be with such a gentle soul.

I have so much hope for us and our future together.

I cant explain why I even had a mini-roller coaster ride of emotions on the down side yesterday, esp. with all the positives lately. Oh well, I guess I am human too.

I hope I can offer an inspiration to others too with what I have to say at times. I have never felt more alive and in love with my W than now, three months post-A. I am a reawakened spirit who sees with eyes wide open now. I love my W more now than ever before. I love her for her kindness, openness, her charms and yes, her faults.

Take care GS,

beavis

Please help with this one everyone!!! Brought up on 2BN’s thread by TMCM.

When should the BS try to start meeting the EN’s of the WS? I’m sure there is not a clear-cut answer here, but does anyone have some direction?

Thank you!

[color:"midnightblue"]'cardsonly', I posted this on the above mentioned thread,.

Actually I was thinking I was posting on THIS thread, this is the one I have been following since you first started it.

And if you check what I wrote on 'Mixed Molly's thread', you will see as a BW, I tried my darndest to give him something to think about besides his OW.

But maybe in YOUR case, since you are the WOMAN, it will need to be YOU that creates the fun and excitement in your marriage!~lol~ (Just a thought.)

This is what I wrote:
If you go back and read what you wrote in the beginning posts, you will see how far you have come.

I don't think you will EVER forget your OM friend.
We are not made that way.

I am the kind of person that if I am on an airplane, having a conversation for several hours with someone (male or female) I feel a certain sadness that never in my life will I see or talk with that person again.

So to even think of never talking again with a person that you have been REALLY CLOSE to, that fulfilled many emotional needs, made you feel special ((like a school girl) gave you affection and attention through his emails )....well, of course you won't forget.

But that doesn't mean your marriage can't improve and be the way you have always hoped and dreamed it could be.

I used a quote from you in a message on 'Mixed Molly's' thread. I hope that was alright.

If not, I would be glad to go back and delete it.

Sincerely, Julie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />[/color]

Just an update--

I know I'll get heat for this but, I spoke with my OM on tuesday and finally got some closure. I know people don't advocate it but it really helped me. I am feeling better, though still sad, but the fog is lifting.

I don't know where that leaves my marriage yet. Still working on it. But at least I can focus on my feelings now and sort through things.

-win

Cards-

I'd agree...I don't think there is a 'hard, fast' rule on when meeting EN's should start. IMHO, it should happen as soon as both parties are ABLE to do so. We all know that the WS isn't willing to meet any EN's during NC, or during withdrawl. It's pretty much a given. As a matter of fact, THAT was the clue that let me know that you're still dealing with withdrawl, Cards.

I've seen in some cases where the BS wasn't able to meet needs for a while after d-day either...sometimes for a considerable time after. This is mostly because of the emotional trauma that THEY'RE dealing with.

I don't want to get too off-topic, but follow me for a moment. I'm ex-military. I've had a 'unique' military experience. I KNOW what PTSD is like firsthand...and I can absolutely tell you that I suffered from it again as a result of my wife's EA. I had nearly all the same symptoms and feelings that I'd felt the first time. If it's THAT traumatic, esp for someone who's been through as much @#$@ as I've been, maybe that can help a WS understand just how hard the whole thing can be to deal with from a BS perspective. (BTW...my wife had no idea about how tough it was, until our MC flat out asked me about PTSD...he knew I was a combat vet). It's really, really unlikely that anyone who's suffering from this kind of problem will be able to meet anyone's needs right away. Once they can quit obsessing on their own hurt (just like the WS's getting past withdrawl), THEN they can start worrying about someone else's needs.

But, on the other hand, I was able to try to meet my wife's EN's within a week of D-day. MY stress didn't set in until after I'd finally dealt with the crisis of saving my marriage.

I think that any FWS who's attempting to reconcile their marriage should do the following:

1. Clearly define their EN's, and work with their partner on a plan to ensure that they are met.

2. Actively work with their partner to define the BS's needs, and a plan to ensure that THOSE are met too.

3. Both parties should set clear expectations on meeting needs...and establish WHY those needs MUST be met.


Cards and 2B, I really think that if you're really feeling like your EN's are being completely ignored, that you insist on a joint MC session, and make it very clear to your spouse that fixing your marriage is your top prioriity, and that meeting EACH OTHER's EN's is CRITICAL. Making them accountable to SOMEONE ELSE for meeting your needs is one way of getting the job done. And ALWAYS make sure that this is a two way street...if you want your needs met, meet your spouses needs too.

Won't be on for a few days...good luck my friends, and God bless you all.

Hi Everyone,
A couple thoughts that have helped me:

First and foremost, please remember that your S is not solely responsible for making you happy. You are. You are in charge of your own happiness. If you are happy, then it makes it enormously easier to invite your S into your life and share with him. I think we FWS's tend to fall into the mindset that M's make us happy. There are happy M's, but only if both people are independently happy within themselves and capable of extending our happiness to our S. From there EN's get satisfied on both sides.

Get healthy and clear of thoughts and feelings of OM before you make big decisions...like deciding whether your M is the right thing for you. OM's are still with you in spirit Cards, Win and 2BN...I sense it all the way from here in Southern California <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's normal and you are doing great with NC, but just recognize those feelings get in the way of identifying your feelings for your H's. Withdrawls can last 3, 6, 12 months after final NC.

Lastly, the more you put into M, the more you get out. Your H's have been through a lot, and maybe it isn't fair to wait for them to "shape up". Maybe instead of asking much of them at this frail time, give love to them. It's hard at first, but it gets easier the more you do it. And the more you show them your love, the more you are going to get back.

And share your feelings with him. Men love to be needed and admired. Ask for their guidance and appreciate all that they do.

Through communication you begin to understand what went awry in M. And it takes a lot of time to heal. We have a long way to go to full recovery so try and be patient.
GS

BT-

Thank you for reminding me how far I’ve come since those early weeks of w/d. Those were horrible days & times. So maybe I shouldn’t get so impatient with myself and my progress considering the crazy place I was at. As far as forgetting OM completely, I really can’t imagine that will ever happen either. But I hope enough so that it doesn’t hurt when he pops into my mind. Your car idea – very interesting. I told my H about it and he liked it. And also, no problem with the quoting me – ever.

Karegh-

Have a nice break, wherever you are going. Thank you for all your helpful suggestions. I so appreciate the time you take to write and spell everything out for us. You probably feel as though you say the same things over & over. But I guess it’s that reinforcement that we sometimes need. You have certainly been through a lot, and have had to work through a lot of things.

My H & I talked again last night and he listened to me honestly talk about how I am feeling at this point. We talked about how important it is we start working on our M. He still seems to think he has to deal with himself first, but I tried to explain that there are some things we need to work on together NOW! We talked about EN’s but are putting them on the back burner for now. We started the 20 Simple Rules like you suggested, K, and hope that will put our minds in the right framework for working on the M, and then graduating to the EN process.

GS-

Good advice again. Yes, I have to realize to accept the lingering OM thoughts. Sometimes I still want to just dial OM’s phone, but I don’t. I’m trying to look for a pattern of when I am tempted to do so – sort of like a dieter who has to analyze why they reach for food. Haven’t come up with anything yet.

GS, how long did it take for you to really get out of the fog? I think I am out of it mostly, but I still feel like I’m having to still PUSH myself to “care” about other things. Much of the depression has lifted, and I don’t know if that’s what is lingering, but I still find myself not really caring about some of the things that were a really big part of my life before the EA. Granted, I had mentally checked out of lots of these things while living in my fantasy, but I thought by now I would be caring once again about my church meetings, the kids’ activities, etc. I’m not getting the satisfaction from those things that I did before. I have been so self-absorbed with all this. Just like I was not looking forward to the vacation. Does this make sense to you? Will that ambivalent feeling just fade away and will I once again be fulfilled by these things? Thank you.

2BN-

If you are still reading here, I want to tell you how proud I am of you getting rid of your OM pics and such. A couple days ago I read everything you had been through during the week I was gone. Coming clean with H (again) and then deleting pictures & memories. How are you feeling about it all now? What did you feel when you actually were doing it? And how are doing now? I haven’t seen anything new on your thread. Great job!

Hi Cards, I just wanted to say that I think you are doing really well when you think how far you have come! You and I seem to be in a similar state though with still thinking of the OM. I really think these thoughts will fade over time and I'm going to really try hard starting today whenever these thoughts pop in my head to stop and pray, read a Bible verse and just make my mind think on something else!


To answer your questions - I was really ok with deleting the emails and pics when I did it and I am still ok with it now. I have to admit that I can still access an old account of the OM I think he forgot about and there are about 2 weeks of emails on there (over a 100 emails). I cannot delete those since it is not my account, but I have to be strong not to look there. I was weak yesterday and looked there for some reason. I have to not go back there or it will keep me thinking of the OM.

Another thing that keeps coming into my head is that I get really upset that the OM's wife doesn't know certain things about what happened that I had told my husband. I only know that she doesn't know these things since I had the further contact with the OM. Looking back, if I would have kept the NC, I would have nothing to be upset about.

Things are starting to get better with my husband and I. I can't remember which thread I wrote this on about wanting my husband to read a book called "Romancing Your Wife", but he picked it up the other day (without my asking) and has been reading it. I think my husband is realizing that this is very important to me.


Cards, I know you addressed the above to GS, but I wanted to comment on this as well. I really went through this phase you are talking about and not really caring about things. I think I am starting to get out of it and you are talking about someone who has been in a fantasy for over 1 1/2 years. I can still linger there if I want to, but I really had to push myself to care about things. My husband and I had really gotten out of going to church on Wednesday nights (amongst other things)when I got involved in the first EA back in July 2003. That's a very long time! We had gone here and there together, but mostly not. A few weeks ago we committed to a class on Wednesday nights in which we have a study and workbook. I became really excited about this and it gave me a focus and also some good discussion with my husband during the week since we have to do the homework over 5 days each week. I was thinking if you and your husband can get into something where you are working together on it, that possibly it could help you get a focus on things.

Thanks for your encouragement, 2BN. I hate to admit, though, that part of my problem is I'm still feeling unsure of my feelings for my H. I want to BELIEVE that we can both have loving feelings towards each other, but I just don't know.

I'm glad you're feeling good about removing the memories of OM. I still don't think I can do it yet, even though I don't look at them or read them anyway. It must be wanting to hold on to the fact of someone wanting & needing me. Do I think I may need to read those things sometime when I feel no one loves me? 2BN, What is relevant about what OM W knows? Are you upset that OM wasn't completely honest with his W? What ever happened with your search for MC? Any luck?

Regarding the fantasy life we lived in, I sometimes wonder if the fact that ours was online EA makes it harder to "join" back into reality. Since everything took place over the pc and the outside world was not involved at all, it seems to me that it was extremely easy to lead that separate life. I can't imagine being in that state for that long. What is your relationship with your pc now?

Cards, I would have never thought that my husband and I could have loving feelings toward each other again. I had distanced myself a great deal from him over that time. There were times I told him I wanted out or I wanted him out. But something clicked for me in the last week or so. The more we seek to do things together and spending time together I see a love coming back and I hope that this love will even become greater.


I think it's part of it and that is very hard to let go of. I will admit that when I deleted the OM's pics, I also finally deleted pics that I had of the first OM. This first OM actually came to see me in Oct. 2003 and we had taken pictures together and for some reason, I still held on to them. I don't know why I started to look at those emails yesterday in the OM's account? I was curious if they were still there, but why did I look at them? I was trying to analyze them again, but for what? I just can't look there again!


There were a few things I had asked the OM that I had wondered about if he told his wife. His wife had seen a some of our emails, which is how we were caught, and the content of those emails were sexual in nature which I'm sure was bad enough. This is a little embarrassing to come out and say, but there were "other pictures" (if you get my meaning) that she is not aware of. My husband specifically asked me if we exchanged these types of pictures and I was honest with him and told him so even though it was hard to do so. I know she does not know of them, and should I really be angry that she was spared that? She knows he knows what I look like, but she didn't want to know what I look like and has an ugly picture painted of me in her mind. The OM told me he was glad that his wife did not pursue wanting to know what I look like because she would feel that she could not compete with me and their marriage would struggle even more! Also right before the OM's wife caught us, we were planning on me possibly flying up to see the OM. My husband knows of this, but I am sure the OM's wife does not know. Also the OM had only told his wife that this had started a few months prior to when she found the emails. He told her we met on a Christian forum, which is true, but he did not tell her that we had communicated for 6 - 7 months before the EA started. So I guess I get angry when I think about that she does not all the details that my husband knows of. And really I shouldn't be, but I am at times. I have told my husband of these angry feelings that I get and I have been praying about them and they are starting to go away now.


We never did any more searching on a MC. I'm not sure that we will at this time. One of the things I told my husband that I would like to do is go on a "Weekend to Remember" by Family Life and that will be in our area in the fall. So I am going to pursue that for us to go to.



It wasn't easy for me to lead a separate life. It became very difficult for me to continue and try to lead a normal life at home. I think with the 2nd A, I got better at hiding things, but it still was difficult to have that all inside of me. I think the very worst of this whole thing for me was the days leading up to the first OM coming to see me. My husband remembers me sitting at dinner with dark circles under my eyes! He knew something was wrong but could not figure it out.


I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean is it hard to be on my pc at work and not think of the OM? It's still hard at times and I still do check that email account for some reason. Not as frequent as before though.

2BN-

It gives me hope to hear that others doubted their love but later had the feelings coming back. I do love my H & I have gained some respect for him by the way he has been handling this whole situation. He has tried hard to be supportive of me and has tried to hear about my feelings. I guess that's a beginning and I should realize the importance of that. So much time has passed when we were disconnected, maybe that's why it's hard for me to imagine us closing the gap. I am trying though.

I find myself wondering, too, what transpired for my OM at discovery. I am sure OMW felt threatened by me when she saw my picture in the display of IM. Then combine that with reading our conversations 2 weeks later. I'm sure she realized the depth of the EA, thus the ulitmatum given to OM. I try to put myself in her shoes and imagine what I would think & do if the situation were reversed. I am sure my OM's world was turned upside down, even though he didn't portray it that way. He chose not to share the details with me, which was a sign to me that he had chosen to stop in order to preserve his M. For both of us, our OM made the decision to protect their W as much as they could. Speaking only for myself, I'm sure I felt some rejection that W was "chosen" over me (even though I had no intention of leaving H for OM). That's the irony-wanting OM to want me more than anything, but having no intention of leaving my world for his.

Cards,
I think the love for you and your husband will come back. I also think we all do so at different rates for we are only human right? Are you 2 spending alot of time together? Have the 2 of you gone out on dates alone? These are some of the things we try to do as a couple. This weekend we went out alone 2 nights in a row. It doesn't have to be dinner. Sometimes we just go out and sit and people watch somewhere and spend the time together.

I do think my OM protected his wife from whatever he could. My husband asked me the questions and I answered them with honesty. Had he not asked, I'm not sure how much I would have shared.

Did you and your OM talk about marriage? I know you said you would have never left your world to be with him, but I was just wondering if you had those conversations. The OM and I talked about that in great detail at times, but of course we could never come up with any great solution without causing alot of hurts! I think the logical side of me knew it could never be, but the fantasy side of me wanted it to happen and thought it could! The stupid side of me told the OM I would wait for him if his marriage did not work out!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He and his wife had so many problems over the past year that I really didn't think they would make it and there was hope for me. Talk about fantasy!

2B and Cards-

I know that my wife didn't feel that the love would ever come back either. I got the standard "I love you, but not in love with you" statement when the EA was out in the open. Then once the OM told her not to come to him (because he knew she wasn't sure what she wanted), she felt like I had cut off her only chance for happiness...I think she hated me for a while there. It took time, and it took a lot of patience on my part, but she finally started to 'come around'. And the love came back to at least what it was years ago...maybe more, because now she knows how far I'll go for her.

Her and the OM didn't say 'married' from what I learned, but they absolutely believed that one day that they would 'be together', and be living together. Before d-day, they'd both agreed that she would wait until all the kids were out of the house...in other words, they were planning on keeping this going for YEARS! Now THAT was a fantasy. Once the A was out, and she was ready to fly away and live with him, they'd talked about marriage and being together forever. But again...realize that she completely realizes now what a fantasy the whole thing was...there was really no chance of it turning out as wonderful as she'd planned...the kids hated the OM, and there was no way I was willing to quietly stand to one side and become a best friend to both of them when they got together.

Cards- I'd seriously suggest that you and your husband start doing a LOT of things together that have nothing to do at all with the A. Dating, in other words. Do NOT talk about the A...just be together, and re-introduce yourselves to each other.

2B- I still think you're doing great, but the whole 'still got an email access' thing bothers the heck out of me. Just imagine what your husband would think/feel after your 'coming clean' to him last week if he found out about that?? Seriously, I'd say that you should either have your husband (NOT YOU) contact the OM/OMW and ask them to delete/change the password for that account. OR...have your husband use XP to block that website on your computer. That way, you're no longer tempted. Once again, it means admitting to your husband about something ELSE.

Coming clean means coming clean. No more secrets. It's the SECRETS that hurt your husband as much as anything else.

Not judging, not screaming at you. I'm just letting you know what it's like from the BS viewpoint.

Karegh, I understand what you are saying. I never thought of this email account when I told my husband of everything a few weeks ago. This email account I am referring to is one that I'm sure the OM forgot exists. He used it back in Sept. for about 2 weeks and then he switched to yahoo. He probably has no clue that I remember it exists or can access it. I will just have to not access it again. I'm not sure telling my husband about it is a good idea or even getting the OM involved. My husband didn't want to contact him regarding the email accounts.