HELP! WITHDRAWING FROM PAINFUL ONLINE AFFAIR

Please help! I am smart, stable, professional woman who unwittingly got ensnared into online affair. Trying to break emotional addiction of 3 month affair that abruptly ended when wife recorded instant message conversations. I knew it was wrong & was scared even as it was happening, but I couldn't stop. We both became emotionally attached and felt in love, even though we both knew we would not risk our families. Intellectually, I know I should be thankful that it ended now before we physically met (we did use webcams to see each other)or went on much longer, but still having painful withdrawal. Hour by hour I stop myself from calling, e-mailing him, etc. Last contact was 10 days ago by phone, but I'm on verge of calling. I want to e-mail & tell him my pain, miss him, etc. How do I stop myself? I feel I need additional closure from him. I want the hurt to stop, but I can't stand the thought of never having contact again. Sometimes I want to move on & forget it all, then other times I don't want it to end at all. Please help!

cards,
are you married ?
online stuff isn't all it's cracked up to be.
if his wife found out, and he's chosen NC, he's made his choice.

I know this is hard, you've lost something that became very addicting.

You're smart, as you've said, why don't you deserve more than an internet fling with a married man ?

It's 3 months..you have your whole life...real life...right in front of you.

A 3 month internet fling is not so serious, if you call, he will reject you, and you will feel worse than you do now.

Call a friend, take a long hot bath, more importantly, are you married, do you have children >?

Cards,

Are you married?

~ Snow

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:
 Please help! I am smart, stable, professional woman who unwittingly got ensnared into online affair.<hr /></blockquote>Cards, smart women don't get ensnared. You allowed yourself to get caught up in the fantasy. Don't sugar coat the affair you have engaged in. It was a decietful, disgusting thing to do. Keep it in that light and you'll find the will power to stay away.

~ Snow

Cards ~
There are times to listen to your heart, but in the upcoming months, you need to listen to your intellect. He's a married man and he chose his wife. Do you really want to try and plead with a man to leave his wife? Can you imagine how awful that will make you feel later? How are you going to feel if his wife calls and confronts you at your house or at your job? Better yet, why would you want to be with a man who cheated on his wife over the internet? Is he really all that special?

If you aren't married, there are so many more fullfilling relationships you could have. If you are, contacting the OM is such horrible thing to do to your husband.

I know it hurts right now, but it couldn't possibly be true love. You only saw the fantasy side of the OM over the internet, and not the real guy. Stand strong and don't call him. It can lead to nothing positive or rewarding. After a few weeks, the pain will diminish and you will be glad the A is over.

Cardsonly,

Welcome to MB although Iâ€™m sorry you need to be here. I have understanding and empathy with you since I was involved in an inappropriate on-line relationship myself (please read my signature line). I also understand how easily platonic friendships can unwittingly crossed boundaries into romantic love if not very cautious and careful. Shirley Glass (author of the book ''Not Just Friends'': Protect Your Relationship from Infidelity and Heal the Trauma of Betrayal has said herself that ''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,''. Also, emotional affairs develop quickly, in maybe a few days or weeks online, where it might take a year at the office, because there is safety behind the computer screen.

Please read this thread on withdrawal thoroughly. It will give you much insight and understanding in this process youâ€™re currently going through and why youâ€™re feeling the way you do. It also contains some quotes from Dr Harley about withdrawal.

Please donâ€™t give into the urge to contact this manâ€¦ Rather come to this board for help and support and if you feel like contacting OM, then post/vent on this board or contact your H instead. Or get a trusting same sex friend or confidant you can speak to. You will see this will get better with time and patience. It will also help if you can go to a trusting, professional outside person (like a counselor or pastor) to help you get your feelings out and to help & support you through this withdrawal process. Anti depressants can also be of much help. Please go to your Medical Practitioner if necessary.

Blessings,
Suzet

[ February 28, 2005, 04:19 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

Hi Cards....
Along with what Suzet posted, I also found this from Dr Harley from this Marriage Builders website about online affairs.

You are not alone with your problem, asemail romances' are in epidemic proportion.

Sincerely, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

*************************************************
Dear Dr. Harley,
I've been married for two years and have known my wife for almost ten years total. Several months ago I met a woman online. What started out as an interesting and casual correspondence has now become a highly emotional, rewarding and sexual relation. We exchange as many as 15 e-mails a day and have spoken on the phone several times. This woman lives in another country, so the chances of meeting her are in general quite slim, but she will be traveling to my area quite soon and we have discussed getting together.

I know it's wrong and I know it could destroy my marriage which I feel is a good one -- I love my wife and would never want to do anything to hurt her. Yet I feel absolutely compelled to meet this woman -- I simply have to see her. I'm completely torn at this point and emotionally frayed at the edges. Any suggestions?

S.R.

Dear S.R.,
You're right when you say, "it could destroy my marriage." E-mail romances are common and have ruined many marriages. As with most affairs, once the relationship gets real, it falls apart, but many marriages are already lost by the time that happens.

Affairs are addictions, both in real life and on the Internet. But the bottom line is that you must completely sever your relationship with this woman, as difficult as it will be for you to do. Even though you feel compelled to meet her, don't let the relationship go any farther than it already has.

You are addicted to this Internet woman because she meets your most important emotional needs. It's important for you to understand what she is doing that your wife should do for you. You're still in love with your wife because she meets some of your emotional needs, but the other woman meets other needs. That's why you love them both.

The solution is simple: Have your wife meet the needs met by the Internet woman. My book His Needs, Her Needs: Building and Affair-proof Marriage, explains how. If you feel depressed about it all (and you probably will), consider asking your doctor to prescribe an anti-depressant. It may sound extreme to you for me to suggest medication, but it's a lot better than your wrecking what you and your wife have and will have for the future. As soon as you sever ties with your Internet lover, you will probably feel an overwhelming sense of loss. But it only lasts a few weeks, and an anti-depressant helps relieve those symptoms of withdrawal.

You are certainly on the right track to recognize your Internet relationship as a compulsion. It is a compulsion, and the sooner you can get out of it, the better. Then, learn to add to your marriage what it is that you are missing. It will help prevent you from getting into a mess like this in the future.

*************************************************

[ February 28, 2005, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]

Also try this link:

Internet infidelity

Suzet

Thank you all for the advice. Most of what I knew, but needed to hear. Still struggling today with withdrawal & wanting to make contact. Feel the need for closure with OM since ending was so abrupt. Do I need closure and to say goodbye or am I just kidding myself? Suzette, thanks for thread of info, very helpful.

cards, i've been there, done that!!! you are just kidding yourself about closure. the only true closure is complete and solid NO CONTACT.

I know how hard it is, KEEP POSTING!!! don't contact him.

are you married?

YES! I'm married, 18 years, 3 kids! I have never even LOOKED at another man! This internet relationship took me COMPLETELY off guard. I am shocked at how I allowed myself to fall into it. My marriage has had its ups & downs, my husband battles family demons and spends lots of his energy on that. I've felt neglected over the years but thought I had just resigned myself to it. THEN, someone paid attention to me and talked to ME! I want to not want to talk to OM, but the pull is so great! Truly an emotional relationship, for me not wanting to let go. Not wanting to go back to the boring unfulfilling life I had. The fog? Is it the place between the fantasy of the affair, and the reality of my real life? Is it where I am fighting to stay in the fantasy and not face my real life?

Tell your H now.

You have that right some of the reasons you were vulnerable to an A. Time to work on those with your H.

The fog is you telling yoiurself it was OK to be inappropriate online...it's the rationale we use to allow ourselves to get caught up in something we would normally think is wrong.

The fantasy of the A are the wonderful brain chemicals that come from that new love, the addictive endorphins and adrenalin. The fantasy is all those things we tell ourselves about our A partner (he's perfect for me, we are soulmates, he understands me, how can it be hurtful , we love each other...) But the reality is that this R is like any other, and you can fall in love and out of love with anyone, and A's are VERY hurtful. Tell you H now, before he finds out on his own...

Cards
You did the right thing! You came to us. do it every time you need to talk. We are here for each other no matter what side of the fence brought you here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thank you RHMIKE & STILLHERE. My H knows, he actually discovered the A first, 2 weeks before OM wife did. H has been very supportive and is trying to help me, talking when I need it. Hard though, since I can't express the depth of my feelings toward the OM, real or not. He wants to work on M and has taken steps, but my brain is still withdrawing from OM and I don't feel love toward H. The depression from not getting "connected" every day from my online OM is subsiding. It's been 4 weeks since we were actively chatting & "seeing" each other. LC was almost 2 weeks ago by phone. I know that it's over, at least the way it was. But I seem to be holding on to the fact that we could still have contact by phone. My brain knows that I don't love HIM, I loved what he was giving me. But my heart tries to tell me that I liked him as a person, respected him, blah, blah, blah. Thank you for this site in order to express & receive advice. In just a few days it has been so helpful!

cards, you are in a good place here. and it sounds like your situation is extremely salvagable. it is ok to acknowledge that you don't feel love for your husband right now. but you also need to see, you can still act loving towards him and in doing that, you will start to feel it too. i swear, it is true!!!

your H wants to work on your marriage, what a blessing for you. i'm sure you know that, it's ok if you don't feel that now. give yourself sometime, you will get there. i bet His Needs/Her Needs or Five Languages of Love would be great for you both to read.

Thank you so much, Finally. I did crazy things while in the "fog" to immerse myself into the A, anything to make if feel more real (having his "scent", seeing his weather 2000 miles away, buying a webcam, etc). I am thankful he was so far, otherwise I'm quite sure we would have met and made things so much worse. I told myself all along that I was acting crazily. Was all that part of the missing EN's? My H & I have done the EN worksheet, but I don't want those things from him right now. For those months I didn't really care about anything except talking to him, nor did I look forward to anything else. Is that part of that fog? Now I have to make myself focus on the old family life and make myself look forward to real things in my life. Is that part of the withdrawal? THANK YOU!

It is an addiction, and like such, take it one day at a time...NC, NC, every moment, every day...step by step.

Printout the EN questionnaire and you and H fill it out and start fulfilling eachother's top 3 EN's.

Fake it at first...the love will return!

Fake it till you make it.

It was not the OM you are addicted to, but the thought of a person out there fulfilling your most important EN's. Let your H be that man.

cards,

I can relate to your situation personally.

I myself got involved in an internet EA. Though I never felt nor declared love for this person. I was addicted to talking to him.

As with ANY addiction there is going to be a time of withdrawl. That time though depends on you only though. Especially if you keep up on not contacting the OM. That is essential. ANY contact with him at all will send you back to day 1 of withdrawl.

My situation was a little different as....when my H discovered it....it ended immediately....no contact at all from that day on.

You said:

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Now I have to make myself focus on the old family life and make myself look forward to real things in my life. <hr /></blockquote>One thing you need to remember is that "the old" family life isn't what you should be focusing on.....the NEW life is what you need to focus on because none of it is ever going to be the same again.

You look forward to the changes that need to be made and will be made....and the fact that you and your H are now focused on making your M better.

Please do focus on these things NOW....take charge of them and fix them NOW.

My H and I did not.....and in the end he ended up having his own A.

3 years and 4 months into recovery and our relationship is completely different than it ever has been......but you both have to make it work.....and it is work.....but it's well worth it.

[ March 01, 2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Miss Priss ]

MORE HELP, PLEASE! I'm still talking myself into calling OM. I am plotting to call tomorrow when I know OMW is working and he can be online. I want to be strong, but I want him to answer some questions for me. Why do I think I need that??!! Why can't I let go of the thought of him when I know we'll never be together? I'm not sure if I would even choose him if we met in real life!! Tell me why I shouldn't call him!!

Cards,
DO NOT CONTACT HIM!! Contact will mean that the pain you have felt for the last two weeks will be for nothing and the clock on withdrawl from your addiction will start all over again. Do you really want to relive the last two weeks again? Other reasons not to call:

1) You are married and your husband will be hurt terribly when he finds out you contacted OM. Hasn't he been through enough already, with so much more hurt to deal with going forward?

2) OM is married and if he wanted to contact you, he would have by now. He doesn't want to talk to you. His wife doesn't deserve this.

3) Your need for "closure" is your mind trying to justify getting contact with OM again. You are still addicted and trying to rationalize contact. You have closure already. The A was wrong and it needed to stop. That is done already.

4) You have children - someday you will want to look in the mirror and say, "yes I made a huge mistake, but it's over and on (date) I behaved like an ethical and smart wife and mother." Don't drag this out any further. Don't add pathetic chasing to your bad memories.

5) Listen to your words..."plotting" "when I know his wife isn't there." It's seedy and dirty, conniving and irresponsible.

6) Stop romantisizing this OM. He cheated on his wife.

Time to start looking down the road to your husband. You can only do that at 100% strength after your withdrawls are over. Until then you are going to think your husband is second best because of the fog and addiction you are in.

Final reason - contact with OM equals failure. It isn't the right thing to do. End this obsession and keep busy with other things tomorrow. You are dangerously close to chasing a man who doesn't want you and jeopardizing you M.

Hang in there - I know it's hard. Listen to your brain and not your heart right now.

Keep yourself busy, go see a movie, go out to lunch, be with friends...call someone else when you feel compelled to call him...call your H instead. Tell your H about your compulsion.

If you call him tomorrow you will start at square one again...are you prepared fo rhte guilt that comes after the high?

The OM is a cheater. No matter how much you want to believe the fairy tale is true, it never really happens unless we create it in our own lives...through honor, honesty, and lifelong love.

How is it going today Cards? Were you able to resist? Either way, I'm here to help.

Thank you gentlsoul. Had a pretty good day & was able to resist contact with online OM. I read a lot on this site today & read an old post from TogetherAlone that analyzed why WS get in A's. That helped me immensely and much of it applied to me and helped me understand why I did what I did. Even as the online EA unfolded I constantly struggled with what was happening (morally). I am the "perfect" mom, being active with kids religious school, active in church, etc, etc. What a contradiction, had this in common with OM and we even talked about the paradox of it all. I needed to know what was happening to me and my sound mind. Since I was readily available online, I was almost always at the disposal of the OM. He found me online 1 or 2 times a day for 3+ months. He was in more control of the relationship because of that which really made me feel like a puppet. It was so intense there was no time in between to ponder and question what was happening, even though I became aware of my addiction when only one day passed without "connecting". No excuses, I was there and wanting him, but it just made the entire "affair" and addiction that much more emotionally charged. Anyway, the post helped me understand what happened to me, an otherwise sensible & stable person. It also showed me (again) that it's about ME, not about OM. This may sound strange, but in my urge to contact OM in the last couple days, reading the posts today almost made me want to contact OM and tell him about this site & help him and his M. I read about some other posts from BH's today, and my heart went out to them. It smacked in my face the pain that is caused with these EA's. I felt compassion for OM's wife. I felt thankful & humble that I my H has been supportive. But, as I felt strong earlier today, right now I'm feeling week (again).

One thing that continues to be hard as I go through withdrawal are the constant reminders of my online OM. Since my contact was via pc and often at my office, my work days can be difficult. It sounds crazy, but the alerts for new e-mail (which are the same as IM) send me an adrenlin rush. I've finally stopped signing in to the service. While other people quit going places to not run into their OP, I can't escape my pc at work or home.

As far as my feelings about OM, I vascillate between begin angry with him for pursuing me so much, and feeling compassion and wanting to help him.

I feel like I'm heading in the right direction, 13 days of NC. But as soon as I feel good & strong, I feel down again. I know that the next few days will be tough for NC. Unfortunately, I am still thinking of when he may be online, up late, etc, etc. Since still in withdrawal, I'm not able to focus on my BH or M. Hopefully soon. Praying to be strong.

It sounds crazy, but the alerts for new e-mail (which are the same as IM) send me an adrenlin rush. I've finally stopped signing in to the service. While other people quit going places to not run into their OP, I can't escape my pc at work or home. CAn you change the sound of the alert? I know in Outlook you can pick from several different sounds. Hang in there, you CAN get through this.

Good for you! Congrats on another day closer to breaking free. The worst of the withdrawls will hopefully not last a whole lot longer, but everyone is different. Expect to feel up and down for awhile (that's normal). Perhaps you might want to have a list in your head or on paper as to the reasons you will not contact him for moments of weakness. As for wanting to help OM - the cost for you will probably be too much. He's a big boy and has his wife to help him. I know you care about him, but your husband needs you more right now, right?

I found it helpful to change my daily habits - driving a different way into work, changing the ringer on my phone at work, etc. When I felt a trigger, I called my husband, even if it was to just tell him a stupid knock-knock joke.

I'm glad you are reading. That helped me too - the more you understand, the easier it is to fight. You are right, it is about you and how the interaction made you feel..not about him.

Give it some time of NC - feelings for your husband will come back I bet. They did for me and I'm coming up on eight weeks of NC. I've been married almost 19 years (about the same as you). I have two small children to show for it. That is true love in the long run. Every day gets better...and so I hope for you. Hang in there cuz I know it's hard. I'm rooting for you!

hey Cards,
just reading through your thread. wow. good insight into the otherside. my H is involved in several onliners. reading this I can kind of understand how difficult it might really be for him to stop. we have 4 kids and have been married for almost 14 years. I thought it would be enough for him to just stop "cold turkey", but maybe he can't. My heart truelly goes out to you. Keep on keepin' on!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> One thing that continues to be hard as I go through withdrawal are the constant reminders of my online OM. Since my contact was via pc and often at my office, my work days can be difficult. It sounds crazy, but the alerts for new e-mail (which are the same as IM) send me an adrenalin rush. I've finally stopped signing in to the service. While other people quit going places to not run into their OP, I can't escape my pc at work or home. <hr /></blockquote>Cardsonly, as I said before, I have understanding for what youâ€™re going through. I struggle with the same things (as you described above) after my involvement ended since my contact with XOM was mostly through e-mail at work. I also experienced the adrenaline rushes and the frustration of not being able to escape my pc at work etc. But time and patience have helped me to recover and put it all behind me.

The following things also helped me to cope:

1. I turned off the sound of my computer so that I couldnâ€™t hear the alerts of new e-mail. Later I also turned off the option on my computer that notified me on my screen every time new e-mail arrived. During my involvement I checked my e-mails regularly to see if there was new mail in my inbox from XOM. After contact ended, I only signed into the service if it was really necessary for me to read/send e-mails for work related purposes. You must try to eliminate the triggers that gave you the adrenaline rushes.

2. If I really felt the urge to e-mail/contact XOM, I e-mailed/contacted my H in stead or posted to these boardsâ€¦ Posting/reading here and posting advice & support to other members was also of tremendous help to help me to stay focused. Keep posting and reading hereâ€¦we will help you.

3. I develop a good support system:

- Other than my H (who is my greatest friend and confidant), I also confided in a few of my closest female friends (some of them at my work) and my mom and the days I felt â€˜downâ€™, weak and/or vulnerable to contact XOM, I would e-mail and/or speak to them in stead or I would go out for a cup of coffee with one of them or whatever. My H, close friends & mom was very supportive and this also helped me tremendously.

- I also seek professional help & support and decided to confide in a Christian counselor/therapist at my work. She also become a great friend & confidant of mine and was also of tremendous help during my withdrawal and personal recovery. I also e-mailed her sometimes when I had the urge to contact OM or when I felt weak or â€˜downâ€™. She was the one who advised me to go on Anti-Depâ€™s. The medication was of big help during my personal recovery and to help me get through withdrawal.

Cardsonly, you CAN get through this and you WILL succeed, you must just give it much time and patience and keep resisting your urges to contact OM! Also pray to God daily for help, strength and guidance. With HIM everything is possible! Remember, we canâ€™t always control how we feel but we can control our actionsâ€¦ The problem is not with the feelings we experiencing and canâ€™t always control, but the problem comes when we act on those feelings. Youâ€™ve made a willful choice in the first place NOT to act on your feelings again and not to contact OM again and this is a MAJOR step in the right direction! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Every new day of NC is a victory! I can see from your posts that, in spite of your yearning to have contact with OM and the feelings you still have, you have commit yourself to NC and have the motivation & strength within yourself to do this and get through this. I believe there is a purpose for everything in life â€¦ Hardships like this help us to learn lessons in life and become stronger, wiser people. The same is true for you. We may never know all the â€˜why'sâ€™ of what God allows in our lives but I believe He allows everything for a purpose and can let everything (even the bad things) work out for our good if we just trust Him, have faith in Him & stay obedient to Him... The following verse from Script (once given to me by ForeverHers) have very personal meaning for me and I want to share it with youâ€¦ Iâ€™m sure you will also find strength, courage and personal meaning from it:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Blessings, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

[ March 03, 2005, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

Hi 'cardsonly'.

I was wondering if it might help you to tell us a little more of your story?

I re-read your first post about his wife finding out and reading the messages between you and OM.
It must have been really terrible in that household...Have you NOT talked or emailed with him since that day?

Your life with your husband reading the messages, did not have this dramatic happening, true?
So if the OM wanted, he could email or call you, is that right also?

I am sure he is WONDERING about how you are doing but evidently he thinks it best for his marriage to not have you be a part of his life.

And yeah, after 3 months of emails saying how wonderful, pretty, fun and sexy you are, this is a hard DRUG to be without even though you know in your mind it is for the best.
(Your heart, the place that has false reasoning, says differently, and yes you absolutely will have severe withdrawal from his loving attention, it is understandable.)

I did a little search and came up with this post below.
Maybe you could imagine in your mind, that this is the way it would be if you called him....And you KNOW if his wife was there when you called, he would reject you completely, true?

Below is the message:
"inamess
Member
Member # 4176

posted April 13, 2000 03:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mercy,

I CALLED HIM TODAY!!!!!!
I called and asked for him, I had a stern voice like I was mad. When they took the phone over there. I heard someone say [b]"Oh My God" I know it was him. And his friend told me he wasn't there. Well he hasn't called today. I am just Dying for him to call also.

I'm glad I did call though. I WONT THINK ABOUT IT AGAIN! That just shows me what kinda old IDIOT I was. He just wanted to play.
What is sad is that his wife may really be a good woman. I had heard rumors about him being a player and that he messed around. Of course this was after I was so involved. Now I am starting to beleive it.

If he does call. I have a few things to tell him. I dont think he will though.

Just keep me in your prayers. GOD KNOWS I AM SO WEAK RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!

This makes me feel like such a total loser!
I can not beleive that I contacted him.
Okay ! Enough of that I am gonna go cry a while.

Email me sometime. Rpstyle@aol.com
Thanks[/b]

Thank you all again for your words of support. Blessed TIME, my online A eventually ended after being caught 3 times! First by my H, who read an e-mail & thought it was a PA. After honestly telling him that it was not, but downplaying the emotional affair part (at that time I didn't even know how much I was attached), he was supportive and trusted me to put an end to it.

At that point OM gave me his cell ph # & his work e-mail that no one else had access to. I told the online OM what was going, but he continued to find me online. Of course, I didn't have strength to firmly end it. I was in way too deep. I would say that this happened at a point where we both could've been talked into doing something really stupid, like actually trying to meet. We continued on for a couple weeks then I mistakenly had an instant messg conversation with OM wife. She confronted him & he denied the A, saying that he had talked to me months ago & didn't know why I was writing him. Again we picked up the contact, but suddenly after about 2 weeks I heard nothing from him. He found me on the site where we met & told me she had recorded conversations & he had promised not to talk to me again. He said we'd talk on the safe site. I don't know if she used online recorders or what, but he hasn't been on the site since (that I know of).

I called him about a week later because I had to know what was going-I was living in limbo. He told me mixed messages, "don't call, at least right now", "see you on the site we met", etc. We had actually arranged to "meet" on a site the next night but he wasn't there. I resisted the urges to call again, so that phone call was my last contact, 2 weeks ago. Even though I know that the A as it was is definitely over, in the back of my mind is that little hope that I could still talk to him now & then. I haven't seen him on the site we met. He doesn't have my phone numbers & if his pc is being recorded he wouldn't be able to e-mail me. So....... as much as I want to let it go, part of me is still wondering if he wants contact or not. I feel as though there wasnt a goodbye or final end. That is torturing me.

His W was more insistent (and maybe wiser) than my H, and gave him ultimatum, me or her. I would not want him to choose me. Neither of us ever intended to leave & destroy our families. I think we both were in denial that this was an actual A, believing instead that we were friends filling each other needs. We live 2000 miles away from each other! He & W had PA's about 5 yrs ago, and had told me that she still hadn't forgiven about that. So he has a history of adultery anyway. But even with all these facts, why am I still so drawn to him? I KNOW, it's the needs he was filling for me. Why do I feel I need to finalize it with him? I have to admit that part of me wants to know that this has been hard for him, too, that he misses me. Or maybe I want to know that he is a scumbag and has simply gone on to his next "victim". I really don't know what to think. But there is this need for finality for me.

I have gone over the call a hundred times in my head. If he doesn't answer do I leave a message? What message? Or do I hang up and try later? Then what? Maybe send a final e-mail? But what if I'm blocked and he doesn't get it? Why can't I just let it go??!!

My choices seem to be 1) be strong & make the decision for myself that it's over or, 2) be weak and succumb to his power over me.

my vote is:

be strong & make the decision for myself that it's over or,

that is what i call finality.

cards, i posted to you earlier but then due to struggles in my own life, i've been scarce. i do hope you find that strength!!!

Cardsonly.
Thanks for sharing more of 'your story'...

Dr Harley says 'online romances' are an epidemic so don't, for a second, feel like you are alone.

You and the OM were both filling emotional needs for one another; it is hard for you to accept that part of your life is over.

If it makes you feel any better, your NOT contacting him is making him WONDER about you, think of and miss you more than if you were 'chasing him'with continual emails and calls.
You are remaining a MYSTERY to him although I am sure he knows how you feel by that phone conversation 2 weeks ago.

He has probably accepted you are a 'fantasy lover' and that nothing can or should ever come of it and he is moving on with his wife and his life.
He apparently doesn't want to lose her, just as YOU do not want to lose your husband.

There is an Anne Murray song that makes me think of you...I will look up the lyrics and post it here in a little bit.

I hope you are FEELING that many here, SINCERELY care about you.

Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That's my vote, too Finally. And as I re-read what I wrote I am amazed by my turmoil. There was NEVER any chance of giving up my H & family, but WHY do I even consider keeping up this friendship? It is so illogical that I can't even process it! Heart vs Brain!

Thank you, also, Gentlsoul for your support.

Hi Cards...good on the vote. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
Did you get my note above or we both posting at the same time?
Love, Julie Jo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here is the song I was thinking of:

Anne Murray Let's Keep It That Way

Without me half trying, I could love you
It shows in your eyes
That you feel the same way I do
But wherever I go, my conscience goes
What more can I say
It's only desire, not yet a fire
Let's keep it that way

Chorus
'Cause I don't want to have to tell him a lie
When I get back home
'Cause it would tear apart his fairy tale world
If I did him wrong
And lying to him would hurt me more
Than leaving you this way
So before we forget, we're not cheaters yet
Let's keep it that way

Let's finish this wine
'Cause I'm not thinking too clearly tonight
And the touch of your hand
Makes it so hard for me to tell wrong from right
He waits at home and he's there alone
And though I'd like to stay
Before I give in
Let's call it just friends
And keep it that way

Cardsonly,

Did you read my post to you earlier today? Donâ€™t contact OM! You CAN do this! As FL said, be strong & make the decision for yourself that it's overâ€¦ The desire to get â€˜closureâ€™ etc. is normal, but it is all feelings. Donâ€™t pay attention to your feelings right now. The most important is to do the right things in spite of your feelings... Feelings can be very deceptive and feelings is the reason people get involved in Aâ€™sâ€¦
<blockquote>quote:<hr />But even with all these facts, why am I still so drawn to him? I KNOW, it's the needs he was filling for me. Why do I feel I need to finalize it with him?

Why can't I just let it go??!!<hr /></blockquote>Cardsonly, you feel all these things (are still drawn to him and canâ€™t let go etc.) because you are still in WITHDRAWAL from him... Remember, this IS like an addiction. But if you continue with NC and do the right things, your feelings will start to fade with time and patience. This is not something that will happen overnight, but with commitment from your side, it will happen eventually and you WILL get over the OMâ€¦ Remember, TIME and PATIENCE (much of it)! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Suzet

You ALL are angels. Suzet, yes I read your earlier post. I know you are right, you must think it's like banging your head against a wall! I got strength from the scripture verse and I need to turn to God for help. I have not been able to do that, I suppose the guilt has stopped me. I go to church every week, but during the time of this EA I felt like a stranger in the pew.

BlessedTime, thank you for saying what I needed to hear about OM probably missing me. Whether it's true or not, it lessens the pain. The song touched me and started the tears. Maybe the crying is a sign that I am accepting the loss finally.

Thank You!

I have a question about my EA OM that I think will help me withdraw from him. I understand that my addiction to him happened because he was constantly contacting ME, showering me with attention. What was his addiction to me? I didn't generally contact him, he always found me. Is there something to the fact of him acting on his impulses? Could it really be just the conversation as he said? I also told him all along how I was feeling about him as I became attached. Was he addicted to wanting love from me? It seemed like the more I told him my feelings, the more he reciprocated the same feelings back to me. I guess it's likely when I think about the 10 EN's, that's what was happening. I tend to think he had problems expressing feelings in general but he trusted me which gave him a safe place to express.

Somehow I think that understanding this will help. Maybe it's just obsessing. However, I have made it past the most opportune time to call OM today. Hopefully I can keep strong for the remainder of the day. It's helping me to tell myself that since I have his phone number I can call him anytime - so why not put it off a day? Hopefully if I keep putting it "off a day" the urges will lessen.

Thank you for this site-it is so helpful to express these things.

I have a question - My H continues to listen to me when I talk about my Online Ea, but he's wondering why it's taking me so long to move on. He believes LC was about 6 weeks ago, when it was really 2 weeks ago. Do I need to correct the record for him?

I know exactly how you feel cards. I'm in the fog myself after a 1yr EA online. I'm hoping it will lift soon and I won't think about him. I'm glad to hear someone else feels as confused as me!

Sorry you all not to get off topic. But this came to mind. Happened to my husband and I about 5yrs ago. In RE: to online relationships. At the time my husband and I were not married. We lived in sin. Oh what sin it was. Here is an example: lol He met this woman online. I knew something was going on. He would sign off everytime I came into the room. (hint) We seperated for almost 4 months. Right before Christmas. That was tough. Anyway he brought this woman from California to Missouri. He thouht she was beautiful. Oh MY!! When he met her at the airport she was 6.1' tall and about 230lbs. She was wearing a dress with tennis shoes. She was sending pics that were either not her or from years ago. He didn't have the heart to leave her at the airport. But made arrangements for her to go back early. This was around valenines day. He bought her a gold ring and she bought him a gold plated ring. My stepson tells me when he saw her he couldn't believe it. Reminder, I am not a model but I am 5 4' and 120lbs. I thought that was the funniest thing that could of happened. Now he has to meet women in person (at a bar). Dosen't trust the internet. HEY!! If you don't laugh you will cry. To me it is nothing more than spilt milk. Hope you all find the humor in that story that I do today. If I would have only known then what I know now.

[ March 03, 2005, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: LostWife ]

Cards,
If you ever wanna chat I'm on yahoo:winniebini

Win Bin, I would like to hear about your story & talk with you further. Maybe we can help each other. Thanks

I'm not sure I'm ready to tell my story yet. I'm still in contact, somewhat with the OM online sometimes, just not on the phone anymore. H just found out 2 weeks ago and contacted OM, though he knew all along that OM and I were friends. I'm still dazed I guess, but I'll get there and fill you all in.

Win Bin, I understand the dazed & confused feeling totally. That's what I am and have been for weeks. I was in a total fog during the height of the online EA. Not even sure how I did the rest of my life with the kids, holidays, etc. Now I'm sort of in between, trying to focus on family, but still have OM in my head to much. Thanks for posting.

Cards,

Here's a book for you to buy "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass. It's recommended by the Harley's and gives excellent information on EAs like yours.

Also I think you should consider counseling to help you understand your particular situation better. It will help your husband as well.

Absolutely you need to set the record straight as far as when your last contact with OM was.

Radical Honesty it's called, and of the utmost importance in rebuilding your husband's trust in you.

It's a big mistake to deceive him at any level. Please get help for this - you have the opportunity to make your marriage way better than it was before the affair; if and only if you learn the LESSONS of the affair.

It's not a game and you could lose your husband, family and life as you know it...Get busy girl!!

Edited to add - Counseling with Steve Harley is as good as it gets! He'll coach you with a marriage recovery plan that will keep you too busy to worry much about OM! Check out the details on this website~

[ March 03, 2005, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]

Hi Cards...i know EXACTLY how yyou feel ...i too just finished an internet affair, only i was the one who was caught.I met a man and we were just friends but after 5 months of online chatting, sending pics and talking on the phone, feelings developed obviously not planned.My husb was devastated when he found all of our emails on the hard drive of our pc.The OM and I had alot in common-we both had been cheated on , we both are married and have kids and we were like kindred spirits.anyways i do have to tell you that it is very normal to grieve that loss of your affair as i was told by my counsellor..so please give yourself lots of time to do this.I truly feel that if you don't you are hurting yourself....

Thank you CSue. I leafed through Not Just Friends last weekend at the bookstore and then tried to get it at our library, but they don't have it. I will have to go back to the bookstore. I have been trying to read everything I can, and sometimes the books don't exactly fit the situation of the online EA.

Summer, would like to know more about your story, too. Like you, my online OM & I have much in common and often said we were living the same lives. That's making it very tough now. It would be great to hear from you again. Thanks to all who are helping me.

Hello Cards,
Just wanted to say WOOHOO! to you for another day of No Contact.

Sounds like you are doing a lot of great things by reading and talking to others. Good for you.
GS

i second the WOOHOO!!!

have you ever heard of a book called In the Shadows of the Net by Patrick Carnes. i have not read it but i heard good things about it. if you go to that page it also lists some others.... one called, Infidelity on the Internet: Virtual Relationships and Real Betrayal.

keep up with NC cards!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Suzet, yes I read your earlier post. I know you are right, you must think it's like banging your head against a wall! I got strength from the scripture verse and I need to turn to God for help. I have not been able to do that, I suppose the guilt has stopped me. I go to church every week, but during the time of this EA I felt like a stranger in the pew.<hr /></blockquote>Dear Cardsonlyâ€¦I donâ€™t think itâ€™s like banging my head against a wallâ€¦not at allâ€¦ In fact, I have much empathy and sympathy with you. Why? Because, I have been where you are today and I experienced the same feelings of guilt & shame towards my H and God, grief from the lost of XOM and his friendship, etc. And like you, I also had the intense need to get â€˜closureâ€™ before I was able to put it all behind me 100% and move onâ€¦ If you interested you can read all about it here (General Questions board) and here (In Recovery Board). I have struggled with withdrawal and residual feelings for XOM for 18 months before I was finally recovered.... This is why Iâ€™ve said you must give it much time and patience. As someone who have been where you are today, I can tell you there IS hope and you CAN heal from this. This is the main reason why I posting to you, to give you HOPE during this difficult timeâ€¦ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blessings,
Suzet

SUZET, are you still up? I have a question to ask you?

Thanks

LostWife, yes, I'm still up. What is your question?

LostWife, I noticed you havenâ€™t responded and send your question yet (Iâ€™m just curious <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ). Iâ€™m knocking off from work in half an hour, so if I donâ€™t hear from you before then, I will check this thread again on Monday and respond to you (or sometime during the weekend if I can find the time).

Suzet

Here I am again! I made it through the week with NC to online OM-15 days. I truly believe I would not have been able to do it without this site & caring people. Since I discovered & posted last weekend, I have devoured the advice & readings and it has been a lifesaver during this time. I have to admit that for over a week I planned in the back of my mind to call AP by the end of this week, in hopes of talking & setting up a time to "talk" online. This afternoon was my last opportunity to call until MOnday. I left work, sat in my car, and had my cell phone dialed to his number. I had rehearsed the conversation in my mind, but realized I didn't really know what I would say. Amazingly, I didn't "send" it. I hung up. I immediately felt empowered, as though it were a turning point. Now, I know that I will not call him on the weekend, so I have 2 more days to continue to get strong and hopefully resist contact.

Suzet, thank you for directing me to your story about NC. It is quite lengthy, but I got through much of it. I will read the rest this weekend. I can identify with your thinking as I continue to want that closure. It is hard to hear that closure is ridiculous, especially for my situation where everything was left open. I have a great need to express to OM.

I did write to OM (without sending) my feelings today and have found that it helps to get it out? I do wonder though, does that really help??? When I do that it brings up all the memories of the relationship? Is that really helpful, or does it just pull me back in to thinking of him? HELP?

cards,

You are inspiring me with you stength to resist contacting OM. I haven't gotten there yet, as I sit up late waiting for him to show up. I know he won't at least, but doesn't stop me from waiting, still. I've had NC for 5 days, thou I have emailed him, does that count? It's a relief to know I'm not the only one feeling this way. I know it gets easier each day, that's what I count on.

winbin, please write again. We have a lot in common.

QUESTION about NC & Withdrawal. Please define No Contact. Is contact only when there is a direct 2-way connection? Is e-mailing out with no response back considered contact? Is calling and leaving messages considered contact? I write e-mails without sending them, which is not contact, but I sometimes feel that while this allows me to express it also dredges up all the old memories and keeps me enrapt with thoughts of OM.

Are there stages of the withdrawal, or is it just a fading of the depression, anger, etc?

Thank You!

Hi Cards! Congrats again on not hitting the "Send" button. Keep fighting. I know just how hard it is, but it is a conscious choice.

IMO, contact can be one way or two way. Sending e-mails or calling, even if OM doesn't respond, is contact. You set up your mind that he might respond, you sit and hope he does, you practice what you will say when he responds, yada yada yada. You in a sense, go back to square 1. Your mind gets filled again with the hormones or other drugs that give you that "rush" of adrenaline. Then, if you want to break free of the A or he doesn't respond, you have to start withdrawls all over again.

If you think it helps to write down your thoughts, you might think about a journal instead of letters/e-mails to OM. But, I speak from experience in saying that writing down my thoughts about OM was just another way to obsess for me. And most importantly - recovery means no more secrets from your H. Would you write these letters if he was sitting next to you? Probably not, so there is your answer.

It is healthy to "get it out", and perhaps you should think of Individual Counseling. It really helped me sort out a lot of things and gave me strength. Still doing that.

I also focused on replacing thoughts of OM with things that gave me good thoughts on where I was going. I thought of my children, all the great things my H is, all the good times we had and how much I wanted my self-respect back. It's time to let go of OM and keep telling yourself that. Eventually, you will get back the feelings for your H, but it is going to take some time.

I don't know if there are stages of withdrawl, but I think it is like depression. Denial, bargaining, depression, anger. I can tell you the most intense withdrawl symptoms stopped around five weeks for me. I'm at eight weeks now and confess, I still feel it although not as intensly. I hope that doesn't discourage you, but the thought of going back to square 1 again and starting over gives me hives. I wouldn't do the first five weeks for anything!

My doctor prescribed an anti-depressant, which I had never taken before, but it did help. Otherwise, the more the withdrawl you experience, the more depression sets in, then the withdrawls get worse, then the depression gets worse...you get the cycle.

Hang in there Cards. It gets better. I'm focusing on my marriage now, more than I ever have in my life. It feels so much healthier and I'm getting back my sense of self. Have a long way to go still, but it can't get better until OM is gone from the picture and withdrawl is over.

And Win Bin - you can do it too. It's there for the taking. Come take the jump with us.

I am rooting for you both.

gentlsoul, I had a feeling you would say that about NC and the writing. I think I'm feeling, too, like it just helps me obssess. It's a way for me to not let go. I have this compulsion to want to write the history of the EA in my mind. I seem to want to know where his head is. I guess that's the withdrawal and obssession. My emotions tell me that I need to totally understand his side. That's what I'm thinking the closure is. I think about all that and make myself crazy wondering what the real story is with him! Is that normal? I go from hating him, caring, being angry, on and on it goes.

YES, focus on other things & remember it's about ME not HIM, right??!!! THANK YOU for your words of encouragement!

Yes, it is normal to go through swings in how you feel about OM. NC means being totally in the dark about OM and what he is thinking. I sense you are a caring person like me, and it is difficult to just coldly end a relationship like this.

BUT, we have to. It's a relationship that cannot be, unless you are both single. Ask any single person and they will tell you how most dating relationships end very coldly.

From what you've said, he stopped being in contact with you after his W laid down the ultimatum. There is your answer as to what he is thinking. He wants his W and to be married. Isn't that enough to know? If you hear him say how sorry he is, how he misses you, wouldn't that make it harder to separate from this man?

If you are like me, you are experiencing grief from the loss of the OM. The first stage of grief is denial. I said to myself I wanted "closure" but I think really I wanted a hint as to whether there was still any chance he was thinking of calling me or if he was still thinking of leaving his M. I didn't call and am glad I didn't.

Try and not think about OM's "turmoil." He has a wife to help him. It is indeed now all about you and your family. You have a H and he is probably hurting too, right? Think about reaching out to him. It's therapeutic. He needs you.

Thanks cards and gentle for your support. I'll try to give a brief history of my situation. I'm 37 and been married 15 years. I've been with H since I was 16. He would play video games for 5+ hrs every night while I would sit alone watching tv. He would also take vacations with his friends and be gone 10 days, even though he knew I was not happy about it. After 5 or so years of neglect from my H, I realized I was bored and lonely and began chatting, harmlessly online.He was happy when I was chatting and not nagging him for attention. I also began flirting with guys for fun and H was aware of this and had no trouble with it. He would sit in the same room and see what I was doing.

About a year ago I met OM, which I should call OGuy because he's 20. We met just talking about music and became close. We soon began talking on the phone when we could which became very intimate. H knew we were friends and chatted and he was ok with online contact. But I didn't realize I had fallen in love with OG. He was giving me attention I was lacking and had the same interest in music as me.

2 weeks ago I left my chat open and hub read through much of my emails and messages. He contacted OG, and it was all out. Though, they did decide that under different circumstances they would be friends because they have common interests in music. I had talked to each about the other and had even shared their songs with eachother (both musicians). 2 Peas in a pod, somewhat.

I'm still going through withdrawl, anger, and confusion about how I feel about H. But I'm glad to find this site and we are both willing to try and fix long standing problems of selfishness and neglect. Just trying to take it one day at a time.

Win

Cardsonly, I am so thankful you started this thread and I see I am not the only one.

Let's hold hands together and help one another up as we struggle to end these online affairs.

We are a group of SMART ladies that foolishly got
caught in an email affair (or chat) with another man. (Maybe it is like someone that takes drugs and likes the 'high' and keeps on taking them and when they STOP the withdrawal pain is awful.)

We willingly walked into this TRAP for the thrill and excitement of this secret romance.
We soaked up the compliments, attention and affection like a sponge, didn't we?

I bet today I have checked my email 50 times, hoping for a message from him.
Do you guys still do that? I last heard from him Wednesday night, but I can tell it is ending.
I guess I am just wanting him to throw me a crumb of attention.

I feel so ashamed for letting this happen to me. Never in a million years, if you had
told me last year that I would be involved with an older classmate from high school, I
would have said "NEVER".(I am 48, he is 57)

We started emailing after our school's alumni, I think I pursued him as I wrote the first email and he sure responded. He was a widow man for a year and sure liked me a lot and has been so wonderful to me.

However, he has been in Florida this winter and has met a lady that he says 'Is very special and they get along so good'....His emails are getting farther apart, I think they may be staying together.

So now it is my turn for rejection.
And the part that makes me ashamed is I AM THE MARRIED LADY, it should have been ME that stopped this email affair, not him.

I go on with my life, like normal...No one knows this hurt I am feeling inside and YES I DESERVE TO HURT...I have not told my husband.

I am a Christian and I have been sinning with this man.
Any time we do anything we wouldn't do with our H right beside us, is SIN.

My stomach feels like it has this knot in it ALL THE TIME, I wonder if it will ever go away.
Yet I know from past heartaches, that it will get better.

So I am joining you gals in no more emails, although I know if he writes me, I will reply.
Do you think you would or are you strong enough not to reply or to just write one last time and say GOODBYE and please don't contact me anymore.
Thanks for the memories, have a good life!

I just really really miss him as I know you that have had online romances do also.

Mary

[ March 05, 2005, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: ItWon'tRainAlways ]

Hi Win,
Thanks for sharing. I am sorry for your pain though. D-Day is a tough day, isn't it? I'll never forget that day as long as I live, when two separate lives come crashing together in a like a multi-car pile up on the freeway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It forces a decision though, doesn't it? It becomes a choice between one lifestyle or another; fix a broken marriage or try the unknown. There can be only one path. Some on this board try "cakeeating" or trying to keep up doing both. It never works, and they sure look like fools trying.

For me, I chose to try and fix what was broken. It's the harder path that's for sure. Once you become separated from H emotionally, it's very hard to reconnect. I struggle sometimes with various aspects, but time is on my side.

How about you? Have you decided which path you are choosing yet?

Hi Mary, thank YOU for writing. I am so glad, too, that there are others dealing with this. It seems like the principles to follow are the seem with our online EA's, but there are differences. My experience was SO intense & emotional that sometimes I can't identify with what other people are expressing about their physical affairs. As I said in an earlier post, I have NEVER even looked at another man or considered an affair. Like you said, no one in a million years would ever believe I would have been involved like this. It was unimaginable to me, and I still can't really understand how it happened. Of everyone I know, I am the stable one and the one they come to for help!! Anyway, please keep posting here, WINBIN , too! We need each other because we're in the same place of pain. I know I willingly gave into this, but sometimes I feel victimized too! This site has been invaluable to me & many have given me encouragement. I will write later. Thank you all! Keep writing!

Sounds like we are all in a similar place at the moment. I have choosen to try and work on my marriage. There was never really a consideration or discussion of running off w/ my OM and living with him in his parents basement! Though, I can't say I haven't thought about ways it could have worked out. I'm going to try and stay with H, and start from scratch with the marriage.

I know how you feel Mary about the emails. I still keep looking for him. And if I see him online I will talk to him I'm sure. However most of our online chats lately are just about music and stuff. WE both know it's over. He's moved on, which is good. Can't say that it doesn't hurt though. And can't say I don't miss him terribly, even just the friendship.

I'm glad there's others out there who know how I feel! It's hard to talk to anyone else about it, they don't understand.

It would be great if we could all set up a live chat sometime. I think it would be really helpful.

win

Cardsonly and others.
I think all of us that are writing on this thread are the definition of an EA.(Emotional Affair.)

The OM and I have never so much as touched hands.
So of course we have NEVER kissed. (But we have discussed how wonderful touches and kisses would be.)

Dreamers, just a couple of foolish dreamers!
A fantasy world as we should know, all online affairs eventually end. We live hundreds and hundreds of miles apart.

I would never want my H to read the romantic notes we have written back and forth.

And someone on your thread said they are all in the hard drive. That scares me, if I would die, and he would check the hard drive and see these messages! I feel sorry for you that have had to endure your H reading your emails but maybe that was the first step in HEALING your marriage?

How did we let ourselves get this attached to someone other than our beloved Husbands?

There must have been a big void in our hearts or it would have never happened.

Maybe we just wanted and needed this attention from another man to make us feel more like feminine and desirable women.

I don't know but I sure got hooked by this shy fellow that had never emailed with a woman; I taught him a lot, maybe that is why he is better able (more confident) to move on with his life (after the death of his wife) with another lady.

I do wish him happiness, YET, even so, I WILL MISS HIS KIND WORDS AND ATTENTION.

Mary <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Mary, you wrote about soaking up the affection & compliments. That's EXACTLY what I did. I got attention from someone. I wasn't getting it from my H, and hadn't for quite some time. I felt like the servant at home, doing everything for H & kids, etc. Someone wanted ME and wanted to talk to ME. Even though I was extremely skeptical at first (I constantly asked him what he wanted from me), he always answered "just your conversation". He always told me it was his "pleasure" just to talk to me. He didn't even know what I looked like, even though he had a webcam & I could see him. I was convinced it wasn't about sex because he never even talked about wanting to "see" me. Eventually, though, I wanted him to see me so I posted photos of myself in the IM display. That fueled it further because we were physically attracted to each other. Since we saw each other we believed and trusted each other. We had both been honest about who we were & what we looked like. I eventually bought a cam so we could both talk & see each other at the same time. I guess it was our way of getting as close as possible to each other.

As far as getting back to my M, it will be a lot of work for us. My H & I have been disconnected for a long time. We hadn't been at odds with each other, we had just drifted apart with the whole raising the kids & life thing. We will have to find our way back to each other. The attention, the compliments, the being desired by another man is what totally reeled me in.

Today, my H & I did errands together which was nice. My kids, (11, 11, & 13) are finally able to stay at home alone for awhile. We need to take advantage of that to do things together.

I think of my online OM on & off all day long. I think about what he's doing in his time zone, and I associate parts of my days to him & talking to him. I would never have guessed this would be so difficult.

Winbin.

I had written my message above before I read yours.

I hope you and your H can work everything out.
Since he KNOWS that should help you to stay away from online talk with OM. Does it?

I have never been to a 'chat room' but it is probably best if we just keep posting here as there may be others out there that are hurting and just reading this thread, that haven't decided yet to join in.

Please if you are reading and need some personal help, come and write your story.

I have been reading here for a long time before deciding to get an ID and password today.

Mary

I keep being behind a post.

Just read yours Cardsonly.

I totally understand.

OM and I have had several phone conversations, I love his voice. I did see him at the alumni but didn't talk to him.
I will see him in June of this year at the alumni. (Scary) (But there will be hundreds of people there.)
His mom was my children's Kindergarten teacher but I never knew her son as he was out of school long before me.

We have emailed pictures and I will admit I emailed one of my bare bosoms! He NEVER asked me to, I wanted to. I was the aggressor I think.

I can't believe I did that. UNREAL really!

I guess it is like women that write Romance novels, use their sexual imagination and that is similar to what I did with my OM. I took him on a little adventure! I was on an exciting secret adventure also. He certainly unleashed MY sexually. WHEW!

My husband sees me more as a companion than a lover. Oh well.~sigh~ I know I should try harder, for him to see this sexual side of me.
But so many years together, it is just kinda ho hum.

Mary

[ March 05, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: ItWon'tRainAlways ]

Winbin, like you,my OM & me KNEW we would NEVER leave our families to be together. We acknowledged that to each other on several occasions. So as I felt becoming attached, why didn't I stop? I guess I was so addicted and couldn't. But in the back of my mind I was scared, I knew I was becoming so vulnerable to be hurt. We rarely e-mailed each other, 99% of our contact was him IM me. I was online at home & work most of the day, so he would find me. I think I was even more vulnerable because I felt in so little control.

Mary, has your OM told you it's ending, or are you sensing it? Mine feels somewhat not finalized. I wish to feel strong enough and resolved enough to decide for myself that it is over. I hate the fact that I feel powerless and that at his whim I would talk to him again.

Sorry to blab, maybe this chatting is helping replace the chatting with my OM!! Thanks!

Cards, I think you had said earlier or someone else did about leaving one relationship that is good, exciting, giving affection, for one that is nearly dead and unfulfilling, is very hard. I wasn't sure at first if I even wanted to try because I had been hurt soo much by H, emotionally time after time. I still have a lot of resentment built up and he expects me to jump back into his arms happily, because he has decided to change. I keep reminding him that its gonna take lots of time to build back the love.

But first I feel like i have to "withdrawl" or grieve from OM. Good or bad, I've never broken up with someone, since H and I have been together since I was 16. So this is rather new to me. I have to get over it first before I can move on, I guess. Do you guys feel that way?

And is it wrong to cherish all the good things you got from OM? It's part of my life now, it happened I can't just shove it in the corner. Not to mention, he gave me a ton of music I still listen to, which i love.

As far as NC, he seems to have stopped talking to me, which is good I guess. But hurts a lot. I really value his friendship along with the love, but hate to lose both. I think I just realized only the last couple days that it is really over.

I'm going on a business trip for a few days with a friend, to Vegas of all places. But I think it will be good to get away from both H and OM for a while. Maybe I'll come back with a clearer head! OH and more $$

--win

Cards,

Yah my OM and I IM'd mostly. I would email him,but he would never respond. I think fearing that my H might see it. I was always looking for him, he was never on enough for me! Then when we could we would talk on the phone, mostly late at night, where he was the most affectionate. Those are what I miss the most.

He had talked a couple times about running away with me but not in a serious way. My situation is kinda different. Hes a 20yr old college student. As much as he loved me, he didn't want someone that much older than him, and with kids! We knew this, but still, could not stay away from eachother. He was lonely and had a bad breakup and I was in a lonely marriage. The EA was enough to keep us in it and happy.

Wow, You guys are really helping me sort all this out! And its helpful, being a former IM junkie to be albe to chat with someone(s)!!

--win

Mary, I have to admit that I liked the flirting involved with my EA. Being desired by someone else is a wonderful feeling. He constantly told me he was "turned on" just by talking to me. who wouldn't melt? I would have to say my H & my relationship was a similar companionship-type relationship like yours. We were way past "desiring" each other. So that is another area we will have to work on. I have discovered so much about my needs in the last few weeks. I think so many of my needs were not being met, but I didn't realize it. Then when someone did meet them, then STOPPED meeting them - WOW withdrawal in a big way!

Cards & Mary,

I'm with you on that one! I think with an EA you can't help but be attracted physically. I do admit I really, really, miss his voice. Luckily he sang some songs and gave them to me so I could still hear it. Probably not a good thing to do, lol. He also sent me video of his band so to put all the pieces together can make them irrisistable. And also nice we didn't have to deal with any of their flaws they have in real life.

I think it feels nice to be attractive to another man, I mean who doesn't like it? Especially if things are ho hum with H. Actually my phone calls with OM helped H and I come together physically. I was happy and ready for fun! Now to start from scratch is more difficult. One day at a time!

-win

Win, go back to page 1 of this & find Suzet's post where she links to a thread of withdrawal (I don't know how to link it!). It was very helpful in explaining what we're going through. Harley's book "Surviving an Affair" also talks extensively about it. I checked it out from the library last weekend & it has been very helpful. Today I got the book "Not Just Friends" which was recommended several times in all these posts. I feel compelled to read and understand what has happened to me. Sometimes I feel like I'm overdoing it, but then I do think it's helping me heal. And if I weren't reading & writing I would be maybe calling & e-mailing my OM.

I also hunted around on this site and found some great reading about how we get in the "fog" about what we are doing. How we justify it and compromise our beliefs. This was enlightening to me because I struggled with this constantly. I consider myself to be moral with strong values (my OM is a very religious Christian, too) and was confused about what happened to my thinking. I printed it out and will look it up and tell you where to find it.

I have learned so much in the last week just by talking & reading here. It's also scary, though, that my H & I have so much work to do. I am definitely still in withdrawal, though, because I still do not want to give up my OM. The depression has lessened, but I still think of him constantly. I can't imagine NEVER talking to him again, and I can't imagine being in love with my H. I hope this will all change!

cards, i have not been keeping up too much but it sounds like you are doing really good. Good for you!!!! i just wanted to say HI and tell you I'm really happy for you. I know how hard it is but you are doing it!!!

Cards,

I have read and reread the withdrawl article and have just purchased one of the books. I'm still there right in it. It's only been a couple weeks and I hope this is the worst of it.

I know what you mean about OM. I think about him a lot too, and can't imagine never speaking to him again, even just as friends. And H and I have a lot of work to do as well, but I was also thinking that divorce is even more work, and doesn't always mean it would be a better solution. I realize we just have to try and go through the steps and if it doesn't work out, at least we tried.

Sounds like once we get past the fog and withdrawl we will be more able to work on the M with H. I'm sure hoping!

It just takes time, just as it too time to develop the EA, it will take time to get out of it and move on.

-win

Mary, I re-read your 1st post. It sounds like you are feeling lots and lots of guilt. You also sound remorseful. From what I've read on this site & from the posts of these experienced helpers, it sounds like the road to recovery starts with being honest with your H. I don't know if that's possible for you or not. I have to say that I know what I've done is wrong, but I have not felt tremendous guilt (yet). Maybe because I am too wrapped up in withdrawal and concentrating on trying to have NC. Maybe because my H does know about the EA. He doesn't know that I continued contact after he discovered. He doesn't know exactly when it started, and he certainly doesn't know the depth of my feelings for OM. He has been wonderfully supportive, and has taken some responsibility for the bad shape of our M.

It must be hard for you to mask what you're feeling-the depression & withdrawal. Does your H notice your moods?

I am so glad to have you all to talk to. I have friends, but can't imagine anyone understanding this. If a friend of mine would've come to me with this problem, I don't know what I would have thought! Thank you!

It is Sunday morning and we will be going to church like we always do.
Cardsonly, my OM is also involved in his church. He is friends with his pastor, goes for breakfast with him, so I relate to what you are saying about our 'secret' life and stepping away from the morals we have always believed in.

I really feel guiltier about NOT FEELING GUILTY. I would feel terrible if my H knew.
But since he doesn't, I think I would have had this online romance and even with the hurt
I feel now, I think I would still go down that same old road.

And yes, it isn't officially over yet between OM and me. I know he will be emailing this week, probably his lady friend is around and he is unable to. So I am STILL in this affair.

This message board is predominately betrayed spouses, very few posts are written by the BS. So in a way, maybe this thread, although it must sicken the BS to hear what we are saying, (like how I sent the OM a light blue silky nightie of mine and he put it on his pillow and pretending he was holding me close all night; called it his Mary pillow and spayed my perfume 'Longing' on it.

At least our inner thoughts and feelings will give some understanding and insite of WS thinking, how we are SO CAUGHT IN THIS WEB.

As Abe Lincoln said "What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."
That is sure true.

When I disconnect, I always have to remember to go to TOOLS, INTERNET OPTIONS, DELETE FILES and CLEAR HISTORY. And then when my H goes to use the computer, I always fear that I forgot and left my email acct or this MB open.

I won't be on again today til later, as after church we are going to our daughter's and to see the grandchildren.

Mary

P.S. How did you guys pick your ID name? Mine was from a song I heard on a gospel public TV show yesterday. It was a beautiful Gaither song that made me cry: "It won't rain always"

Please read the post above also.
It was getting long so I am making it a second message.

Cardsonly, I read your posts again and if your OM's wife actually read the messages you and he were writing, he is in a lot of trouble with her! I am sure he still CARES for you yet he has to walk the straight and narrow or he is going to lose his wife. You don't want that to happen.

Does he know your real name? He could find your phone number on Switchboard.com if he wanted to call you, true? Or call you at your work. Or he could email you from a different computer than his home computer so you have just got to believe he would rather you NOT contact HIM.

It is a hard pill to swallow after all the fun and loving conversations you and he had. I think he is just SCARED for his life; his life the way it is right now and he doesn't want to lose what he has and end up alone, perhaps she has threatened telling others.

You are doing the right thing to stay in NO CONTACT. I hope someday, though, you get the closure that you need, since it stopped so abruptly. Just be very patient and give it lots of time. I think someday you will hear from him again and he will give you a PROPER GOODBYE.

Mary

Hello ladies,

I just wanted to drop a in and say WOW! Your posts have been VERY insightful for me and I Thank You.

My H was(hopefully not still is) involved in an online affair with a woman who lived thousands of miles away. This has been the most difficult thing I have ever had to deal with in my life. I thought we had a great M but now see where I was blind - so I am very actively working on making those changes.

In the meantime, I am so impressed with the power of these EA's by your posts. I have been able to use your experiences constructively in a way that allows me to sympathize with what he must be going through. Last night I was able to offer that understanding to him by telling him about your thread so he would know that I am here for him. He responded very well, and admitted that the original contact was in fact broken - but for the first time he wasn't defensive and i didn't get upset, I just offered my support. He is sooooo stressed emotionally as well as physically - and it pains me to see him go through it but now I can understand why.

I hope you don't mind if I drop in once in awhile to help me better understand his pain.

Thank you so much!

Mary, thanks for writing. My name was a joke between OM & I. We met playing cards online. When we began to realize how we were feeling about each other and talking about it, I would always say "how did this happen, I was just playing cards"! Not so funny now!

I agree with you that much of the conversation on here is from BS, and certainly they need this forum. I'm glad that a few of us were able to connect on this thread & feel free to talk without being judged. I feel guilt about not feelng guilty too.

Thank you so much for your directness regarding my OM. YES, he could find a way to contact me if he really to. I know that, and that's probably what hurts so much. I try over & over to put myself in his shoes and imagine what is going on in his home. He had had PA's in the past, too. So she is probably much less forgiving than my H. Yes, he's probably scared to death of losing everything. I certainly don't want that for him. I think that is one of the things that stops me from contacting. What if by some small chance she finds out I called & that was the last straw? I DON'T want his life ruined & and I don't want him showing up on my doorstop! I guess I just want validation of what we had. How silly. And if he didn't want any contact, why DIDN'T he say "Don't call me, don't e-mail me!"?. Why did we plan to meet on the site? Maybe he didn't have the resolve at that time. It's quite possible he can't do anything on his pc if she has an online recorder. I guess it doesn't matter, he's not been there. That should be my answer. I SHOULD be HAPPY that he is stronger than me, and sparing both our families a lot MORE pain!

It's so illogical - I would never consider giving up everything I have to be with him, so why can't I use that sense and just let it go?

It may be harder for your situation in that it sounds like the EA could be more drawn out. Will that be more painful in the long run than just stopping it dead in its tracks? The withdrawal may last longer unless you are able to get to a point to say it's over. Or maybe he will come to that conclusion. So you are kind of in limbo, knowing that it may be over soon but not knowing how long.

Although I don't WANT to let go yet, I DO want to get to the point that I decide it's over. Will we get there after the withdrawal? You seem very strong and seem to understand exactly what happened to you and why. I keep wondering if I need ind counselling, do you think of that for yourself? I seriously considered seeing someone about a week ago, at least for anti-depressants. But I have to say that the actual depression is much better in just a week. It has been helpful to be on this site. I hope that's progress.

Take care, talk to you soon.

luv2bd:

Your H is lucky to have you. If he's going through what we're going through, it is withdrawal. I have never been addicted to anything in my life, until this. It is unbelievable that it is like a drug - in fact it is a chemical reaction in our bodies. The feeling I had during those "wonderful" weeks was like being a teenager in love, but even more intense than that. It was a world of confusion, though, since I had a full life to lead at the same time. Anyway, he is probably withdrawing too. Have him read these posts & contribute if it would help him. On page 1, Suzets post has a link about the withdrawal.

Again, you are wonderful to try & understand & help him. My H is trying his hardest to help and understand, too. I think he is trying to downplay it in his mind, though. I'm glad for that if it causes him less pain, but it makes me need more outlets (like this). We have gone through the "emotional needs" survey and he is trying hard to work on himself.

Take care!

Cardsonly,
Yes I can see the signs of withdrawal in him very clearly but I'm pretty sure he doesn't understand it at all. I want so badly to show him Suzettes withdrawal post but I don't think he would take well to me "educating" him right now. i offered to show him this thread and he said he wasn't ready for that now, so I respect it. I'm not going to push, I'll just stand strong for him.

It's comforting to see you guys talk about "feeling guilty about not feeling guilty" because it has been so hard for me to not see remorse, but now I get it, it's just part of the whole process.

We're taking baby steps right now, and I'm being very respectful of his need to do that - I had always had a tendency to want to push him. Hopefully when he's ready we can do the EN surveys and learn more about MB TOGETHER. For now, I'll be patient.

If you have any suggestions on what you need (or don't need) from your spouses to help get you through this, it would be very helpful.

I applaud the courage you all have to be here and face this monster straight in the face. Keep up the good work!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:
 YES! I'm married, 18 years, 3 kids! I have never even LOOKED at another man! This internet relationship took me COMPLETELY off guard. I am shocked at how I allowed myself to fall into it. My marriage has had its ups & downs, my husband battles family demons and spends lots of his energy on that. I've felt neglected over the years but thought I had just resigned myself to it. THEN, someone paid attention to me and talked to ME! I want to not want to talk to OM, but the pull is so great! Truly an emotional relationship, for me not wanting to let go. Not wanting to go back to the boring unfulfilling life I had. The fog? Is it the place between the fantasy of the affair, and the reality of my real life? Is it where I am fighting to stay in the fantasy and not face my real life? <hr /></blockquote>

I'm not sure how to reply to these posts so please bear with me. I to had an online affair but it became physical after 2 months of talking to the OM. We saw each other for 8 months off & on as he lives 2000 miles away from me. I am now going thru the withdrawal and have become sucidal at times. I haven't talked to him since Monday and yesterday was the year anniversary of us meeting in person. I just don't know how to let him go as I loved him very deeply. I've been married 20 yrs and have so much to lose. I can't explain why I let the affair happen, my hubby worships the ground I walk on and treats me like a queen. I so lost and confused. I NEED HELP

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:
 YES! I'm married, 18 years, 3 kids! I have never even LOOKED at another man! This internet relationship took me COMPLETELY off guard. I am shocked at how I allowed myself to fall into it. My marriage has had its ups & downs, my husband battles family demons and spends lots of his energy on that. I've felt neglected over the years but thought I had just resigned myself to it. THEN, someone paid attention to me and talked to ME! I want to not want to talk to OM, but the pull is so great! Truly an emotional relationship, for me not wanting to let go. Not wanting to go back to the boring unfulfilling life I had. The fog? Is it the place between the fantasy of the affair, and the reality of my real life? Is it where I am fighting to stay in the fantasy and not face my real life? <hr /></blockquote>

confusedwoman, I hope you read the whole thread starting from the beginning. Read the link about withdrawal so you understand why you're feeling like you do. My heart goes out to you, I feel what you're feeling. I can tell you that my OM & I have not actively chatted for 4 weeks, now. My withdrawal began then when I had to get over not having the daily contact. I was extremely depressed. Then I had to deal with being in limbo - is it over? is he coming back onine? What an emotional rollercoaster! I last talked by phone to him 17 days ago, where we sort of said goodbye but sort left if open. So I am still kind of in a limbo. It has been excruciatingly painful. BUT, I have seen progress just in the last week. Allowing me to express here has helped me immensely, so many angels here with support. There are now a handful of us on this thread that are on this side of the coin-we're looking for help even though we did the betraying.

Tell more of your story if you need to, it helped me. Several of us are going through the exact same thing.

How/why did your EA/PA end? There are others here who had year long online EA's. Your withdrawal and pain must be so great. Even though mine lasted 3 or so months & there was not a physical meeting, I can't imagine MORE pain & withdrawal. Read the advice in these postings about counselling & anti-depressants, maybe you should consider. I haven't done either, but was on the verge. Write us back!

Confusedwoman,
I'm so sorry you are in such pain right now. I know just how you feel.

My OM lived 2,000 miles away as well, and most of our contact was either over the phone or e-mail, although we did meet once in person for a few days. I have been married almost 19 years now and never thought I would get involved with something like this. I am a professional businesswoman who lost my touch with reality. I take full responsibility for my actions, and I have been trying so hard to break free of the emotional hold this OM had over me. I feel I am almost there after 8 weeks of NC, but goodness it's been a long couple of months.

I'm worried about you and your mentioning hurting yourself. Please take your pain very seriously and go see a counselor right away. The first week of withdrawl I couldn't stand it any longer and went to an IC. I felt a whole lot better after that first visit. Believe me: this pain will go away and you will feel better after some time.

Through counseling and anti-depressants, this web site and the love of my H, my marriage is on a good path towards recovery. Gotta let go of OM first though - it just can never be.

I am reading the book "His Needs/Her Needs" right now (written by Dr. Harley who runs the Marriage Builders program). It has been enlightening to me about why A's happen. It is such a fantasy relationship.

Keep in touch and hang in there. You can break free.
GS

Luv2bd ~
How hard it must be to be the betrayed one, and to watch your WS grieve over someone else. My H did the same and now I totally appreciate how unfair that it to you.

I just wanted to let you know that it sounds like you are doing the right thing. Not pushing, or Lovebusting as they say here on MB. It wasn't until I felt safe to talk with my H, did the real and honest discussions take place. By safe I mean that I felt he wasn't going to explode in anger, disrespect what I was saying, argue, leave, etc.

At the beginning, during the height of my withdrawl and depression, he did push for info and explanations. The more he pushed, the more I fled. Since then, we've talked a lot.

As far as the not feeling guilty part: I didn't at first, but as the withdrawl and fog are lifting I do now. And I've heard others say that later, it hits like a ton of bricks. Part of the rollercoaster.

Today I told my husband that while our M had problems, I don't blame him for any part in my decision to have an A. I could have addressed my unhappiness in other ways...like talking to him about it and trying to fix it. I also told my H that while I did feel "swept away" by the A, I take full accountability for my actions. I could have stopped any time, but didn't. Your H will get there too I bet.

Keep in touch. I did just want to commend you for your understanding and patience. It is a blessing to him that he'll probably tell you later saved your marriage.
GS

'Gentlesoul' (that is what you are) You are our (us WW) inspiration that, given time, the heartache will ease and our marriage can once again be our first focus.(Suzette, you are our guiding light also.)
Gentlsoul, what is your complete story about how you got involved online with the OM and then out of the relationship?

I can remember being 16 and how it felt when my boyfriend of a year, broke up with me. The same feeling of rejection that I am feeling now. The same ache inside my stomach, like an actual pain.

I have been waking up in the night with chills and covered with sweat. And my life on the outside, for my family (playing blocks with grandchildren yesterday) and friends (at church) to see, I put on a happy face and act 'normal' around them. I try to keep occupied with household tasks and working some outside when it is nice enough. (Like yesterday was a warm Spring like day.)

'luv2bd', your letter made me cry; such an understanding of your H's online affair. I have read many threads that speak of the OW as 'pond scum' and the 'devil'. Actually most of us are nice loving ladies that made bad choices and are now paying the price. Could you tell us more? And how did his affair end? By her or him?

'Confused woman'. Tell us more of your story. What happened to end the relationship? How did you meet if you live 2000 miles apart? My H and I have NEVER spent a night apart except when I was in the hospital having babies!
And don't think for a minute, that we look DOWN on you because you slept with the OM because most of us would probably have crossed that line also if we had had the opportunity!

I am looking forward to hearing from all of you ladies that have written previously, and anyone else that is just lurking and thinking of joining in. THIS IS A SAFE THREAD!
And maybe there is a man just holding back from posting.
Come on in, you are WELCOME here!
We can help one another get back on track!

Cardsonly I know for me, when this online affair with my widowed man ends, I will HAVE TO HAVE CLOSURE, a proper Good-bye. I could not stand to be in a state of limbo the rest of my life; WONDERING. I need words, even a kick in the pants!
I will write in another post how I would want that good bye to be and say.

MARY

Mary, unbelievable! I was sitting here finishing an e-mail to my online OM. I have a bunch of them never sent, but this one was going out right now! Just then I was alerted to the new post-yours. So as I sit here, I am temporarily stopped to send that e-mail. It is the one where I am trying to get that CLOSURE. As luck would have it, I am home today with a sick child, giving me all sorts of time on my hands. Either way, I was going to call him one last time or e-mail him.

I actually had a fairly good weekend, better than any in the last month. The sheer depression is much better & I didn't obssess about OM as much. I feel as though I am starting to let go, but the need to say what I feel to him is still there! Like Suzet's situation, it isn't about begging & pleading for him to come back to me! As I said awhile ago, I don't WANT him showing up on my doorstep. I think it is the abruptness of it all, and the finality of thinking that I will never talk to this person again that I care about. I DO believe that some feedback from him, even negative, would help me let go.

So, here I am in a quandary again, not knowing what to do. Am I just being week (again)? I don't want to break the NC after 18 days. Maybe I'm thinking that the e-mail is one way. He most likely will NOT respond to it-we rarely e-mailed each other. Maybe I'm too afraid to call, afraid that if I hear his voice it will send me back through all that horrible withdrawal. No, I don't want to relive all those painful weeks again.

Mary, you are smart getting in touch and preparing yourself for the end of your EA. I wish I had had the sense to realize how difficult it would be. I could've armed myself with some knowledge of what I would be experiencing. Of course, I was in the "fog" and not really believing it would ever end.

Have a good day!

Mary, just reading your post again. I know how you feel, trying to do the normal life things while being in that "fog/withdrawal". In my last phone call with my OM I told him I needed to talk to him because there is no one else to talk to. That must be how you're feeling, too, right now. I have the advantage that my H knows about the EA & has been willing to talk about it. He doesn't know the depth of it, but at least he has given me space when I've been really down. Keep going forward, believe it or not, I can see that time really does help. I have been having to MAKE myself do things and go places. Even if I didn't want to, I knew that THIS is the life I am living. Not the online life.

Cards, you just have to do what YOU feel is the right thing to do; only YOU have that answer.

I have read about people taking anti-depressants and I think it is by far best, to get through life's hurts and tragedy's (withdrawal from OM) without them.

A doctor told my sister, when her husband died suddenly of a heart attack, that he NEVER gives 'drugs' for at least 3 months because grief and sadness is part of the natural process.

If it lingers after 3 months, he would consider that it might be depression and would consider anti-depressants.

That made sense to me.

The doctor also recommended a Bendryl allergy tablet before going to bed, just to relax and get sleepy. I have taken one several nights, and it does seem to help some.

Yep, life goes on, the sun keeps shining, the world keeps turning, as folks keep bearing heartaches every day and doing the best they can to be happy and productive and hide their sorrows.

MARY

Well, I just got done reading this thread, and wanted to post what I hope is a "bit of hope" to all of you ladies dealing with this.

I'm the BS in my situation...my wife had an online emotional affair that I discovered about 10 months ago.

It started out with online gaming. We'd been married 17 years, and she was feeling a lot like you were Cards. She felt as though I didn't love her (not true, but it was a matter of not properly meeting each other's EN's). She was home all the time alone during the day, and she met someone in game that she began to spend a lot of time with.

They would make arrangements to play together a lot, and finally began conversations via IM's, end eventually got to the point where they were calling each other fairly regularly.

They had been to the point where they were convinced that they were in love with each other for about two months when I finally got the proof of the affair in a chat log conversation that I managed to capture on her computer. Needless to say, reading that log hurt me more than anything you can possibly imagine.

When I confronted her about it, the two of them IMMEDIATELY made plans for her to go live with him...although they had never once met face to face! (she had ONE digital picture of him...he had a few of her)Long story short, she moved out of the house for about a week before she was supposed to fly away, but ended up staying. It took another month and a half before the NC FINALLY stuck. It was always something...every week, they'd both agree to NC...and every week, one of them would break it.

I know that they've not had contact now for 8 months. But here's the hope I promised you... You see, once my wife made it through the withdrawl, and completely ended contact with the OM, our marriage HAS gotten much better. We didn't know about this site then, but I've used it and others to help me get a handle on what we've gone through. Marriage counseling is a MUST, IMO, if you're going to recover from this.

She's glad she stayed home...glad she didn't leave, glad that our love was strong enough to survive this test. And I honestly think that you'll end up feeling the same way, Cards. Just hang in there, don't give up on your husband. It sounds as though he loves you dearly. And realize that right now, you're hard pressed to seperate your feelings to KNOW what you're feeling for him.

Please, get to counseling ASAP. Find someone who understands infidelity,and can help the both of you find out what EN's you had that weren't being met. And find ways to fix them.

A great book that helped my wife and I a lot..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools For a Great Marriage by Dr Steve Stephens". Take a look at that. My wife and I were astounded at how many of those things we started doing on our own after we began re-building our marriage. And at how doing a lot of those might have prevented the affair in the first place.

Hang in there...dont give up, don't break down and contact the OM. He's not what you need in your life. You've already got a man willing to meet all your needs. All you've got to do is to get back to the point where you'll let him.

OOPS LOL

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:
 Please help! I am smart, stable, professional woman who unwittingly got ensnared into online affair. Trying to break emotional addiction of 3 month affair that abruptly ended when wife recorded instant message conversations. I knew it was wrong & was scared even as it was happening, but I couldn't stop. We both became emotionally attached and felt in love, even though we both knew we would not risk our families. Intellectually, I know I should be thankful that it ended now before we physically met (we did use webcams to see each other)or went on much longer, but still having painful withdrawal. Hour by hour I stop myself from calling, e-mailing him, etc. Last contact was 10 days ago by phone, but I'm on verge of calling. I want to e-mail & tell him my pain, miss him, etc. How do I stop myself? I feel I need additional closure from him. I want the hurt to stop, but I can't stand the thought of never having contact again. Sometimes I want to move on & forget it all, then other times I don't want it to end at all. Please help! <hr /></blockquote>

[ March 07, 2005, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: confusedwoman ]

Sorry about that other post. I couldn't find mine lol

I met him several times saying I had "meetings" out of town and once when my H was away on business. The OM broke it off after the last time we saw each other. He was married when we met but seperated from her after we spent a week together. I think deep down he knew I could never leave my family and life here. So he decided to end it. He has now found AW and is moving on with his life. He also has filed for divorce. This is his second and when I'm honest with myself I let myself see the "bad" things about him. God it hurts so bad knowing he's with AW. I'm trying to have NC but I do give in sometimes but just to e-mail for leave messages. I have finally quit calling his cell phone or work. So I guess I'm making a bit of progress.

I have been on prozac but it doesn't seem to help. Then of all things I was up fighting with the hubby until 4:30 this morning. He was angry that I spent the day at my Mom & Dads' can you believe that??? He is doing nothing but pushing me further & further away from him and he just doesn't get it!!! We go to our first counseling session tomorrow so keep your fingers crossed everyone. And ty so much for all your support and encouragement. I might just get thru this!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ItWon'tRainAlways:
 'Gentlesoul' (that is what you are) You are our (us WW) inspiration that, given time, the heartache will ease and our marriage can once again be our first focus.(Suzette, you are our guiding light also.)
Gentlsoul, what is your complete story about how you got involved online with the OM and then out of the relationship?

I can remember being 16 and how it felt when my boyfriend of a year, broke up with me. The same feeling of rejection that I am feeling now. The same ache inside my stomach, like an actual pain.

I have been waking up in the night with chills and covered with sweat. And my life on the outside, for my family (playing blocks with grandchildren yesterday) and friends (at church) to see, I put on a happy face and act 'normal' around them. I try to keep occupied with household tasks and working some outside when it is nice enough. (Like yesterday was a warm Spring like day.)

'luv2bd', your letter made me cry; such an understanding of your H's online affair. I have read many threads that speak of the OW as 'pond scum' and the 'devil'. Actually most of us are nice loving ladies that made bad choices and are now paying the price. Could you tell us more? And how did his affair end? By her or him?

'Confused woman'. Tell us more of your story. What happened to end the relationship? How did you meet if you live 2000 miles apart? My H and I have NEVER spent a night apart except when I was in the hospital having babies!
And don't think for a minute, that we look DOWN on you because you slept with the OM because most of us would probably have crossed that line also if we had had the opportunity!

I am looking forward to hearing from all of you ladies that have written previously, and anyone else that is just lurking and thinking of joining in. THIS IS A SAFE THREAD!
And maybe there is a man just holding back from posting.
Come on in, you are WELCOME here!
We can help one another get back on track!

Cardsonly I know for me, when this online affair with my widowed man ends, I will HAVE TO HAVE CLOSURE, a proper Good-bye. I could not stand to be in a state of limbo the rest of my life; WONDERING. I need words, even a kick in the pants!
I will write in another post how I would want that good bye to be and say.

MARY <hr /></blockquote>

Confused Woman
If you click there at the bottom, where it says how many posts you have written, it will show all three. Yours is there from yesterday.

Did you notice the questions I asked you?
We need more of your story so we can help you.
Like if you have children, H etc. and what happened that your online affair is over.
It scares me that you have thought suicide. As you know that is a permenant solution to a TEMPORARY PROBLEM.

YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS, just as in any sorrow in life, the pain does diminish.

OWL Yes, your wife and Cardsonly's stories sound very similar. Cards will write you when she comes online and maybe you can understand a little more what made YOUR wife have this online romance.

All I can say, is when affairs happen, we the WS are VERY SELFISH and don't think beyond ourselves or the consequences if we get caught.

We become, for the time of the fantasy affair, no longer a wife and mom but a seperate person, the person we were before we were married. I think as President Clinton once said, we compartmentize our lives.

I just hate it so, that nice men like you and my Husband and the other posters on this thread, their husbands, are the innocent ones that get hurt.
As you are seeing the WW also ends up being deeply hurt when the rejection comes by the OP (and it inevitably always does at sometime) as affairs generally run their course and end.

MARY

Hi Confused.
You had written while I was writing you. COOL.

If you are the kind of woman that I think you are, you could NEVER EVER BE HAPPY if you caused someone else's unhappiness.

The price you would have had to pay, if you left your family, would be far too great a price.
AND YOU COULD NEVER BE HAPPY.

We woman, that are married and have affairs, usually know, that we DO NOT WANT to leave our H and children. We are just so hungry for romance, for love and affection, and attention.

Even though our H's may give us a lot of love, we sometimes just want to be desired by someone else and our H's are not to blame whatsoever.
They cannot fight this fantasy we have of wanting something new and exciting.

And when the 'poopie hits the fan' and our mates find out, the fun isn't fun anymore, is it?

The originator of this marriage board, Harley, said that what happens often in affairs is one affair partner finds another partner.

You know, you can't fight this. If someone else is in his thoughts, don't lower yourself to calling or emailing or chasing him in any way.
Don't settle for just a crumb, honey.

I think our H's will give us the whole loaf if we just let them. (I am preaching to myself also.)

Does your H know about your affair?
I wasn't sure.

MARY

I am so glad this thread keeps growing and we can all help each other with this not so popular problem. OWL, you & your W story is so much like mine. I am so glad you supported her and stayed by her side. She is lucky to have you and I am sure she knows that. It's great to hear a success story! And Mary, you are wise and your insights and support are right on (I hope you will listen to your advice when you are down).

You said EXACTLY why I wandered into my EA. Attention & to be wanted & desired. As I told my H & OM, I didn't even realize my needs weren't being met until OM was meeting them! I had pushed them aside for such a long time while raising kids, working, and running the household! Confused Woman, keep writing, it will get better every day. It has for me and I know we can break away.

I had an interesting experience today, which I will share later when I have time. Keep posting and sharing and supporting! Thank you!

Card-

Believe it or not, this kind of affair seems to be a LOT more common than many people realize. My wife and I both enjoy online gaming, and I know of MANY couples that have had something very similar happen. It's so easy to fall into this trap of reaching out on the internet for someone.

Something that MIGHT help you to get over the OM...and this may be a little painful to consider, so I'd like to provide you with that warning up front. Please recognize that this is NOT an attack.

What you shared with your OM wasn't real. It's so easy to build up a mental image of someone you know online. Even communicating via webcam and phone's don't give you a decent picture of who the other person really is. And here's another part of it...because you never met, you also never had the chance to be dis-illusioned by him. There is nothing harder to compete with than the fantasy of who someone is.

My wife had trouble accepting that a large part of her relationship with the OM was fantasy as well. But it's true. You never got the chance to find out that he's really got horrible body odor when he sweats. Or that he bites his toenails (LOL). Or that he ALWAYS leaves the seat up when he gets up in the middle of the nite. You haven't had the chance to see much of the personality traits that you don't find appealing...because you never met him in person. And an online affair allows you BOTH to just send the things that you want the other person to see.

Here's something that your husband is facing right now...he's competing with a fantasy man. He can't POSSIBLY measure up...because it's easy to make the online OM up into the "perfect soulmate".

Start trying to recognize how the OM did things to make this happen. See where he made selfish choices, where he actually set this up too. You are not ENTIRELY to blame here...he too had a part in this. He knew how unhappy you were...he could have done something else, couldn't he? But he chose not to...selfishly so.

It's understandable that you miss what the two of you shared. But if you can start putting it into perspective, it'll be easier to recognize the guy who's REALLY been with you through all of this. It took my wife several weeks to get through the withdrawl. And I had no idea what it was at the time, I just knew that she was miserable. But at the end of it, she looked up one night, and realized that I was still there for her, still loved her despite what she'd done, and was STILL trying to help her, even though I was so heartsore I hadn't kept down a meal in three weeks. I honestly feel that you're going to get to that point too, friend. Just try to hold on until you do.

See...here I'm sounding all 'wise' and such...what you don't realize is that I'm actually 2' tall and have hairy feet! Gotta love the internet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh OWL, BELIEVE me I do not feel attacked by you! I told myself all throughout the affair that it was a fantasy & that I really didn't know him & how he lived, etc, etc, etc. He's not as handsome as my H, and has more character flaws than I want to deal with. BUT, that didn't matter. You see, I FELT myself getting caught up in it but I couldn't stop it. I was addicted! It was a drug to me, a chemical reaction in my body when he contacted me and "fed" me the attention, etc. It was as if he controlled me, he signed on at will when I was at home or work. True, I had to be signed on to IM in order to receive his IM's, and I WILLINGLY was.

I am actually to the point that I realize there were really only a couple needs he was filling. I am starting to see things about him that I really don't even care for. So, reality is coming back to me. Thank God the fog is lifting.

I am SO left-brained that it isn't even funny, and this was WAY too illogical for me. So, even as it was happening and I was loving/needing it, I was constantly trying to process it and make sense of it. After getting daily "fixes" of him for 3+ months, WOW withdrawal. That withdrawal started over 4 weeks ago, and I am feeling so much better. I was in such a fog, I felt powerless. Me, the one who runs everything at home, sits on the church boards, organizes the school events, etc. VERY unsettling feeling to now know how vulnerable I can be.

I didn't know that this is a widespread problem happening to mainstream, decent, people. I had thought it was mostly about sexual perverts, etc. I am now enlightened, and will be SO much more alert & watching my children as they become more involved online. If me, an intelligent, mature, stable 43 yr old can be drawn in, what about my 11 yr olds & 13 yr old? How scary is that??!!!

As far as OM's responsibility in this, yes. I am aware that we were both "using" each other in a sense. We were filling each others needs at the selfish expense of each other. As soon as I started exploring what had happened to me, the first thing I had to recognize was that it was about ME, not OM. I had to tell myself over & over that I was addicted to what he gave/did for me, I was not infatuated or in love with HIM.

OWL, thank you so much for your perspective, it sounds as though you and your W have a great handle on this whole issue. I appreciate you saying the things that we all need to hear over & over & over until the pain & withdrawal subsides. I am convinced that my progress in the last 10 days or so is attributable to being able to post here and also listen to other people's stories.

I'm curious, OWL, what brought you to the site and these postings?

Hmmm...interesting question Cards. I've got to say that the real reason that I tend to come to these sites is because while I truly HAVE forgiven my wife, and we've both worked pretty hard to identify and meet each other's emotional needs, I'm still dealing with her affair on a personal level.

I know (mentally) that what happened was not all my fault. I played a part in it, to be sure, but the final choice to engage in the affair was hers.

Emotionally however, I'm still struggling with the what ifs. And I struggle with where I failed, what I did wrong to lead up to this. While I have a lot of confidence in my abilities as a dad, I still feel a lot of self-doubt from what happened as a husband.

I know (mentally) that I've done the right things. Emotionally I'm trying to catch up.

So I come to threads like this to get a better understanding of what others are going through. And to see their perspectives in things. And, to be honest, it makes me feel pretty darn good when I can provide a bit of advice that helps them. It makes me feel like that while I may have failed in keeping my own marriage from this bad time, I can at least help others through THEIR tough times in some small way.

OWL, I worry about my H in the same regard as you expressed about yourself. He "seems" to not be bothered by the whole "affair" and tells ME it's OK, move on. But then, like last night, he started drilling me about last contact, etc, etc. He was almost frantic about it, and it made me wonder what was going on. Did I have contact? Did he find something I forgot about? I asked him what brought that on and he replied that every once in awhile he just thinks about it and it hits him. I have to say that he is probably fairly typical in that he's not always "in touch" with his feelings. He's able to bury them, and apparently this just sprung out of nowhere.

He also said that he noticed that I haven't "needed" him as much. In the early weeks during my hardest withdrawal, I craved the "love" I was getting from OM and I was truly more needy of my H, I suppose in an effort to replace what I wasn't getting from OM. I tried to explain that now I'm doing better-that is the truth. He probably has all sorts of emotions going on that he hasn't really identified with.

Like you, I would say my H is very proud of himself as a father, but has felt inadequate as a H at times. Haven't we all felt that? I have felt that about myself. We've spent our energies raising fine children for the last 14 years! He is working hard on himself right now, but I sense he's not sure which things to work on first. We have a couple good books, and I will look for the one you recommended. We have done the EN worksheets, but now we need to act on them. We have taken small steps.

I am sorry that you still internally struggle with your wife's EA. The impact is probably worse than it may initally seem. I know for us, he & I BOTH were trying to tell each other that it was no big deal (because at first it seems so ridiculous, after all it's only a computer!). I think he wanted to believe that but when he saw me struggling with the withdrawal & depression he realized how much I had gotten involved. I guess for both H & W things are changed from that point on. I do believe, as you said, that once I'm beyond thoughts of OM, that our M will improve. I think this was a slap to reality for both us to not neglect each other, and realize that we can't just let our M drift.

As YOU said, no one can compete with a fantasy man. Maybe you need to remember that, too. Your W is not comparing you to her EA man. He was a separate entity filling some sort of need. It sounds like you are meeting her needs now, though. If you've identified what EN he was filling, you should be all set, right? In my mind, my H and the OM are not competing at all. My feelings for OM were (are) totally different than my feelings for H. After all, the feelings for H are deep, mature love after being together all this time. The feelings for OM are artificial, they're not feelings for him, they are a response to what we received from them.

Now I'm trying to sound wise!!! Anyway, thank you for the H perspective. It gives me insight into what my H may be dealing with.

OWL, I read your post again, and want to try to respond better about how you're feeling. I can't figure out how to do that quote thing, though!

You seem to be blaming yourself quite a lot, and trying to figure out how you failed. Please know, that your W probably never blamed you. You both are questioning how it all happened, and that seems like it's the right approach. For us, I think I have the guilt for the wrongdoing, and also have been focused on how I was so weak that I got entangled in something like this. As far as my H, i KNOW he feels like he let me down in a bunch of areas. But, again, we (the W's) aren't blaming you. I believe we're both to take responsibility. The M is a joint effort, and if there are shortcomings of any kind we both have a hand in it.

Maybe for the H's, it is a blow to the masculine ego. I think my H feels that way, too. He's thinking that I desired another man, that goes right to his core. But for me, I was smitten with the idea of being desired. It's not about sex it's about intimacy and emotional needs being met. The men give the intimacy in hopes of the sex, the women give the sex in hopes of getting intimacy. I don't even know if this applies to your situaction, but it was true in my case. This is why I think it's harder for us W to break away. If it were just sex and no emotional connection, easier to end it. In my case, I think my OM has definitely had an easier time with the separation, because the flirting, etc is what his greater need was. I can in all honesty tell my H that sexual talking was NOT the driving force that kept the A going (at least for me). Hard for men to really understand & believe that, though, I'm sure.

Didn't mean to go down that road, but maybe some of it applies to you. Quit blaming yourself, look at it as the opportunity it was to repair M damage. Me & my H have said several times that we are somewhat glad this happened to open our eyes. It could've been much worse and much more painful and damaging!

Cardsonly, you have come SO FAR since your first message on this thread. You seem to really 'have a handle' on your feelings and the reasons the online romance happened.

And yes, OWL, PLEASE do not blame yourself in any way.
This road we traveled was our choice, and we may have traveled down it, even if our marriage were PERFECT.
We wanted and perhaps unknowingly craved for another man to find us attractive, special, fun, witty, etc. We wanted this exciting romance; maybe we thought it was our last and only chance of feeling this 'thrill' again.
And like with drugs, the thrill wears off after time.

I probably won't be posting very often because I don't think it would be right since this IS a marriage building site.

The reason I am saying this, it my widowed OM emailed me 6 times yesterday and we talked this morning. I hadn't emailed him since Thurs and I think he was afraid he was losing my friendship.
He NEEDS me in his life and for now I need to be needed by him so.......

Until I stop this online romance and have a repentent heart and tell my H (so we can have a sincere marriage without secrets) I think it best if I don't be giving ADVICE.
(Unless I am ready to take it myself.)

I WILL be reading this thread though and may even occ. bump it up or leave a message.

Cards, could it be that your H has checked HISTORY, and went to Marriage Builders and read this thread including your messages about how hard it has been for you not to contact the OM and how your H doesn't know of the most recent contact a couple weeks ago???

HANG IN THERE EVERYONE
I HOPE TO SOON BE ON THE RIGHT ROAD WITH ALL OF YOU AND START POSTING AGAIN.

MARY

[ March 08, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: ItWon'tRainAlways ]

Mary

You must be so conflicted. I am sorry that you feel you can't post. Maybe by staying with us you will at some point find the strength to move forward with ending your EA. You have been helpful to me, and I don't consider your advice hypocritical in the least!

As far as my H, yes, it crossed my mind that he read this and/or my journal that I've been keeping. I am concerned about that, and hope he doesn't come here. I have personally made a lot of progress, and feel H & I have too. I don't want to set that back. I have told him how much this site has helped me, but so far he hasn't shown any interest in it. But, if it comes out, we'll deal with it. Nothing I can do about that.

Thanks Cards, you are so nice and your thoughtful words make me cry.

Yes, I am very conflicted as I am also involved with my church. Play the piano, help in nursery, in charge of greeters, help with lining up food for funeral dinners, etc.

And to be leading this secret life! I felt like I was the only one until this thread!

And we also have wonderful grown married daughters & precious grandkids, that would just be so ashamed of their mom & gramma. They have me on a pedestal and think I would be INCAPABLE of having an online romance.
(Same as your friends and family, I am sure.)

Unbelieveable, how we get so WILLINGLY, with our eyes wide open, got caught in this web.
And like with drugs, I am just not quite ready to give mine up.
If my H knew, it would be completely different and I should hope I would STOP emailing with the OM.

I admire you and think of you as the kind of lady I would like as a loving dependable friend in 'real life'.

Hopefully, on down through the years, this experience will make us more understanding women, with more empathy when others fall short.

I will keep reading and I hope the others that have been posting will jump in and say how they are doing, like 'Confused Lady'.....

MARY

Hello everyone, I hope you don't mind but I wanted to give an update to my situation. I feel safe here even though I am on the other side of the fence, your posts have helped me move in the right direction....let me explain.

My H POURED his bleeding heart out to me last night and told me EVERYTHING. I didn't see it coming at all, but I am so glad he did. I thought I had imagined everything possible, but I never could have imagined the truth he told me. Fortuneately there never was a PA, that I am so grateful for . But, it was close. It turns out she also has a home here as well as across the country. If I had been asked to write a story about what I thought my H's ultimate fantasy was, this would have been IT. I cannot believe it at all and I am not ready to go into further details.

So much of what he told me, I had already heard from you guys on these posts, so in a sense I was ready. He had been in contact with her and tried to end it on several occasions over the last 2 months. ( It started 12/1 both chat and phone!) Their last contact was only 5 days ago - the longest period without contact. He also said that he has made his decision to stay with me and my faithfulness to him despite everything he has put me through is what is saving our M. (Gentlesoul, you were right) I needed to hear that SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO bad. He also admitted that he has so much resentment for me and us because of what he passed up, but he hates that he feels that way and it is killing him.

We have soooooo much healing to do, and I don't think it has really hit me yet, but I AM NOT going anywhere!! Thank you guys so much for unknowingly preparing me for what I heard last night. I have to go but I'll be back later.

Mary,

I think we are in similar places. We can intellectually explain everything that has happened to us. It makes perfect sense and our brain is reasoning correctly, but it is the heart and emotions that keep us weak. I sound strong and I have made progress, but I am still weak. I still think about OM. If me & OM hadn't been "forced" to end the contact, we may still be carrying on. I don't know that I would have had the resolve to end it on my own. Even now, knowing how wrong & hurtful it all is and can be, part of me still wants it.

How do we get to that place where we cross to the other side? I suppose it's the NC as everyone preaches here. I believe it to be true, but why does it take so long? Then in your case, your OM is still contacting you. I don't even have that. What tremendous resolve would be required to not be tempted by that! I wish there were a magic wand to just make the want & addiction to go away. Then we would all live happily everafter.

I want to be able to look back on this experience and know that I learned something about myself. I want to be able to laugh about it. I hope that for everyone here.

Take care!

luv2bd-

I am so glad you & your H had a heart-to-heart. This may not be politcally correct to say, but from my perspective it sounds like he is making progress. Try not to beat him up about the NC, what I think matters is that now he came to you and is being honest. If he has been through what I have been through, it has taken baby steps to go forward. Sometimes a few steps backwards along the way. I did what he did, broke the NC.

When my H 1st found out, of course I said NC. Well, I was in no shape mentally to promise that. I was too addicted. It continued on until OM W discovered - twice! Only then when the real NC STARTED could the withdrawal even begin. For me we're talking about going from 1 or 2 times per day of contact to 1 or 2 per week. It was a slow process. Stopping the daily contact was BY FAR the most difficult. I DON'T think that in my case the 1 time per week contact took me back to square one, it may have taken me back some.

At this point he is still withdrawing & it will be hard for you both. If you read my earlier post, I talked about my H just last night grilling me on NC. To me, I had come so far, why does it even matter at this point what date we stopped? He noticed me not needing him like I did in the earlier stages of withdrawal. He interpreted that as me going back and having contact. So, he will be going through a lot, as you've already read on this post. Let him talk to you when he needs to, but don't ask too much. He will be working on coming out his clouded fantasy and trying to immerse himself back into reality. I know, I'm still doing that!

Write back and let us know what's happening!

How are you luv2bd, OWL, Mary, Confusedwoman, Winbin? Let us know!

This song is dedicated to all of you that are going through the withdrawal of the OM (or OW) that has been a big part of your life for such a long time.
(I KNOW you feel a VOID without the daily contact.)

(Hi Cards, I was writing this when you posted...I wanted this topic brought back to the top, it is such a necessary thread!)

And especially to luv2bd, the innocent person, that does not deserve to be hurting because of her unfaithful H. (I clicked on your post numbers and read your entire story; a lot there. Now that you found out contact has been more recent, the puzzle pieces of his behavior these past weeks and months, are beginning to fit, aren't they?)

Also to you OWL with the unfaithful W.
YOU DO NOT DESERVE THIS HURT JUST AS MY H DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE HURT BY ME.

Remember this and believe it because it is true:
The sun will shine in your life again and given TIME, you will SOMEDAY truly be happy again.

IT WON'T RAIN ALWAYS by Bill & Gloria Gaither

Someone said that in each life some rain is bound to fall
And each one sheds his share of tears
And trouble troubles us all
But the hurt can't hurt forever
And the tears are sure to dry

And it won't rain always
The clouds will soon be gone
The sun that they've been hiding
has been there all along

And it won't rain always
God's promises are true
The sun's gonna shine in
His own good time
And He will see you through

[ March 09, 2005, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: ItWon'tRainAlways ]

I'm doing ok, we had our first counseling session yesterday and she pretty much told him he CAN NOT control me and be so possesive. He doesn't know that I had a physical affair and I CAN NOT ever tell him. I just don't know if I can "save" my marriage when the reason I am doing it is for my family members (kids & hubby) and because of the material things I have acquired over the years. I know that no one could ever love me the way my hubby does---but is that what I want anymore? MMMMMM NOW CAN YOU TELL HOW CONFUSED I AM LOL

Oh and BTW the OM called & e-mailed me to "see how I'm doing" I just said I'm ok and that was about it. God that sure hurt but if I don't hear from him my heart hurts worse. He said he thought about our year "anniversary" also...what does that mean??? And to be totally honest I've thought about this--if I could go back and change the fact that I had the affair would I?? The only reason I would is because he ended it...GOD CAN I MAKE MY MARRIAGE WORK feeling that way??? I have so much to lose and I don't want to ruin my kid(s) lives. They would never forgive me.....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:
 How are you luv2bd, OWL, Mary, Confusedwoman, Winbin? Let us know! <hr /></blockquote>

Hi everyone, it is encouraging to see the progress everyone is making, especially you cardsonly.

Unfortunately today is an extremely bad day for me. They broke NC yesterday when she called him on his cell, later they IM'd and I walked in. I am so heartbroken today, it's really unbearable. I knew the odds were high that NC would be broken since she is single and has nothing to lose by contacting him.

We talked for 2 hours last night after I walked in - he wanted to talk. He speaks so logically about the realities of the situation admitting it would most likely never work - then he jumps to the fantasy side. He says he doesn't want to leave me or this marriage but he is so confused. When I suggested that this is a chemical high he is getting, he admitted that he felt addicted. He's not ready to do what it takes to eliminate the temptation of the addiction. He, like most of you, spoke of needing closure. I wish he would come read your posts but he says no. It's too bad because it would help him so much.

Today I don't know where I stand, as far as I know he is still contemplating leaving.

I try not to lose hope, but it is becoming increasingly difficult. I try to tell myself that this is just part of the fog/withdrawal process and that there are signs that suggest he will eventually come out of it.

Owl - are you still out there?

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> What you shared with your OM wasn't real. It's so easy to build up a mental image of someone you know online. Even communicating via webcam and phone's don't give you a decent picture of who the other person really is. And here's another part of it...because you never met, you also never had the chance to be dis-illusioned by him. There is nothing harder to compete with than the fantasy of who someone is.
<hr /></blockquote>I just re-read your story and it gives me hope and a bit of a re-fuel on the energy to continue in my Plan A. I especially appreciated the above statement - I have to remind myself of that until he can see it clearly for himself. This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

Cardsonly - I then read your response which also gave me hope.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> As soon as I started exploring what had happened to me, the first thing I had to recognize was that it was about ME, not OM. I had to tell myself over & over that I was addicted to what he gave/did for me, I was not infatuated or in love with HIM.
<hr /></blockquote>I agree with others that you have come such a long way since your original post. Your insights are encouraging to me - I hope my H can get there.

QUESTION How do you think it would go over if I e-mailed my H some articles on the addiction of an EA and withdrawal? Would this just push him away? I want him to know he's not alone and the symptoms of withdrawal is an expected reaction - not a sign he should be with this OW. Any thoughts on this based on your experiences would be helpful.

Luv2bd ~
I'm sorry today is such a bad day for you. I have been gone from this site a couple of days now (I had to take a break as I was starting to trigger with everyone's stories and felt myself thinking backwards instead of forwards). Last I heard things were looking up for you and he decided to stay with you.

It isn't uncommon for WS to be on the fence at this critical juncture - deciding which path to take. As you know, it hurts to say goodbye to the OW, someone who has given him such fantasy pleasure over the past few months. Yet, his logical mind knows you are his true wife who doesn't deserve this pain and who has been with him through thick and thin.

Don't despair yet but don't wait around for him to decide. I know you know about Plan A, but my two cents is to keep at it. Last night I read "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. It was excellent and gave me new strength. Particularly interesting was a passage that followed a spouse who left their M and went to live with OP. The bubble bursts, reality interferes with fantasy wonderfulness...money issues, childcare issues, where to live, going through divorce, depression, ugh.

He doesn't really know this OW. He thinks he does, but you know he really doesn't. Have you perhaps helped him visualized what risky chance he is taking by giving up his whole life to be with someone he just met in December? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Luv2bd, logic is totally on your side. Use it and scare the "H E double toothpicks" out of him. But of course, no LB'ers and no anger or disrespect. If I don't sound too forward, it sounds like MC is REALLY important right now and time to negotiate his decision to stay. Perhaps logic will tell him that as long as he is still in contact with OW, your M has absolutely no chance. He owes you at least a chance to try and make the marriage work. It means your commitment to him to work on his needs (and vice versa). Perhaps negotiation to try, will then get a commitment from him to write a No Contact letter and give the marriage a try.

This is all too easy for me to just write all this down. I know you are the one that has to live it. Write here anytime to vent. I continue to feel you are doing all the right things and hanging in there. It's a long road ahead and quite a rollercoaster. I myself want off this darn ride....wish I never got on. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

luv2bd-

I am so sorry for your pain. It must be excrutiating for you. You have been so supportive to your H & he WILL realize how important that was, some day. Don't give up on him, he is in world of turmoil. Yes, HE caused the pain for you and HE started the whole mess, but believe me he is suffering too. Bless you for sticking by him and caring.

He is SO stuck between the fantasy and the real, it isn't even funny. I am still there too, hopefully to a lesser degree at this point. My OM hasn't contacted me in about a month. My withdrawal has subsided, but I still think about him a lot, and I still have to tell myself over & over that he is so far away, we would never be together, etc, etc.

It is such a struggle, logic vs illogical, heart vs. brain. He KNOWS that it doesn't make sense, but he is so drawn to the FEELING of being wanted, desired, whatever it is. He can't probably even believe that the withdrawal will get better if he just endures it. Even more, he may not WANT the feeling to even end. That would be the "fog". For me it was the feeling of being "in love". I haven't felt that in 20 years. He is fighting to have to let it go and go back to the previous "mundane" life (my words for my situation).

After beginning reading on this site, I first read "Surviving an Affair". I devoured the first few chapters, trying to figure out what was going on with me. Trying to reconcile the fantasy with the reality. I felt I was half going crazy. Get that book and put it in front of him. It chronicles a couple of stories about affairs and explains WHY they started. Once he can get a grip on the fact that his needs were not being met, he can start to look to himself. It will reinforce the fact to him that his OW isn't really the right match. She is just the one meeting a couple needs. But he will have to tell himself that over and over. Honestly, later in the book it talks about marital recovery, and I didn't even want to read that part. I could not even go there. I was just obsessed with how I could make the pain go away. It helped so much to be able to identify the needs.

I don't know if this will help or not, but what ultimately put a stop to my online EA was my OM's W. She gave him a strong ultimatum. I don't know exactly what was said, but after he first denied our EA and then was caught red-handed the 2nd time, he completely stopped with the IM. My H was not as firm, and therefore I continued on. I guess that goes back to the Plan A. So, I think you must be firm that it has to stop - NO CONTACT. Only then can he start to withdraw and heal.

Another thing to think about is that now that you know about the EA, he will continue to feel more and more guilt if he continues. I read in one book that most affairs die a natural death, sometimes ending when it is just too difficult and demanding to continue on. So, if he is an otherwise moral person, I would think that it will eat away at him so much that he won't be able to take it anymore. I somewhat felt this way even as I was in the fog of the affair before we were even discovered. Even though I was devastated when it was discovered and I knew we had to end it, a small part of me felt some relief.

He is very conflicted inside and he KNOWS what is right, because his intellect is telling him. As one of the wise posters on this thread told me, don't even listen to your heart - now's the time to listen to your brain! Tell him that and encourage him to get on here and read this thread!

Hang in there!!

Please write back luv2bd, it will get better as he slowly takes the steps!

gentlsoul, Thank you so much for your words of encouragement - I really need them. I feel helpless except to continue a good Plan A. I too am reading SAA by Harley, it is a great book. In all honesty, I am very impressed by how well Plan A is working and in such a short period of time (I didn't fully understand it until 10 days ago but dday was 1/10) I found MB in feburary. He admitted that I have done such a good job at making the changes he desired yet he still has this pull toward her, and it is his problem, not a problem with me.

I'm getting the impression that he is more worried about living with regret for not taking this opportunity with OW than living with regret that he lost me. Even though he logically knows and has verbalized the outcome!!!!

I'm getting nervous because she has a home out here and will be back in town soon - and I know he is contemplating meeting her in order to "find out once and for all". I have told him honestly that if he took that next step, I probably would not still be around and he would be making the biggest mistake of his life. ( I really don't think I could handle it if a PA were to happen). Last night I did try to walk him through the ugly realities of life with someone he barely new - and he wasn't disagreeing.

He has told me over and over how impressed he is with me still being here by his side and that after everything he has done (and is doing) I should hate him - I can't disagree. But if I hated him, I wouldn't still be here.

gentlsoul,

I hope you are doing better, so sorry that the posts took you backwards. Please share if you need to, we will support you just as you have been here for all of us with your kind and helpful words.

cardsonly, Thank you Thank you Thank you. He IS a very logical and moral person - this is NOT AT ALL something he would ever have dreamed being caught up in.

One of my fustrations is in knowing and understanding what he is going through and why, yet he hasn't been willing to read, learn , and try to understand it for himself - even though I have offered him the resources. I have no idea how to help him with this! I guess he just has to figure it out for himself.

BTW, I gave him a strong ultimatum in the beginning and he just got sneakier about everything (I didn't know about MB yet though)- since then I have learned more about my role and Plan A - I just hope I don't have to move to Plan B.

Thank you so much for including me on this thread - I can't begin to tell you how helpful it has been for me.

luv2bd-

Another thought. When/if you can get him to this site, it would help him to know that others are going through EXACTLY what he is. I thought that no one would ever understand - I told myself, MY online affair is a REAL relationship, my OM are REALLY meant to be together, etc, etc. It helps to know that others are feeling the same way. We would be happy to hear him and respond to him, and tell him we all feel how he is feeling. I found that coming to this site helped force me back to reality. What also helped is reading some of the other threads where I saw families & people much more distraught and damaged than my situation. It slapped me in the face, so to speak, to see how much pain can be caused by these situations. Maybe he needs that.

Luv2bd ~
I see you posted your PA concern in different thread. That is just what I was writing to you to ask you to do! I can tell you are smart. Lot's of experts here on other side of fence that will help you.

Plan A is great. It doesn't mean you are a doormat either. He wants to see OW and keep you waiting....cake-eating. I know he isn't saying that, but his actions are. Someone on this site (I think it was Noodle) said not to protect anyone from the consequences of their actions. You are smart to tell him your boundary in this area and it's o.k. to set them. Gotta be prepared to back it up - are you? My OM's W gave the final pressure to end it (just like Cards') and it scared him to think about saying goodbye to his marriage without first trying to work out what their differences were. When our A was in full bloom, I heard the same thing about the regret of never giving our relationship a try....fogspeak. True regret is giving up a wonderful W to chase an internet relationship before you try to save your M. Keep the pressure on and don't be a doormat, o.k.? I'll think good, good thoughts for you.

Is MC a possibility for you guys?
GS

Hi Mary, Cards, Win-Bin, Confusedwoman,
Caught up on my reading. I confess I became a little fogged this last couple of days. Withdrawls started getting worse again and not better....think hearing everyone's pain in this arena triggered me so I took a little break. I'm much better now. I read SAA by Harley last night and feel much stronger now. You know, it will be 9 weeks of NC this weekend and I tell you, this has been the hardest 9 weeks of my entire life. Just when I think I've kicked it, some memory works it's way back in and I feel sadness, then I feel bad because I put my sweet H through all this. I'm astounded that a 3 month A via e-mail/phone could have such long term, wide-sweeping and painful consequences. That's what A's do though.

It was a lot better at 5 weeks. And, I'm finding I can control my feelings more than I used to by cutting off my thought process sometimes and redirecting. I'm a left brainer too Cards, and logic is a wonderful tool for us, eh? The AD's have been really helpful in giving me more coping skills.

Mary, I still wake up bathed in sweat every night like you. That hasn't gone away. I believe it's my heart and my mind battling each other in my soul. My dreams are more vivid than they have ever been.

But, I'm a whole lot better than I was in January, and better than I was in February. So, I know there is progress - which is why I am writing to you all. These last few weeks especially, I feel married again and want to be here. I'm remembering the great things about my H....I'd conveniently villanized him during my A to justify my actions. He sent me flowers today just because, and it made me smile. I'm more involved with my small children again...I was going through the motions during my A like Mary was with the blocks. Physically there but thinking about other things on the inside.

I distanced from all three of them during the A. At the height of my stupidity, I even accepted my OMM's invitation to run away with him after knowing him all of two months. We were "in-love" and that made it o.k. in our minds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

So, I know what the addiction feels like. Like Cards, the OM's wife finally pursuaded him to give their marriage a try and it did break my heart, but I thank him now for coming to his senses first. Just like Cards, I wanted more closure and contact, but didn't call. Every day was hard, but not as hard as it was for my H. Every day I gain more pride in myself for choosing the right path (albeit late) and look forward to the place where my husband will forgive me.

Some of you are struggling to let go of OM but hopefully you will choose your H with whole heart. Sounds simplistic I know, but my mantra to myself has been..."Either you are married, or you are not." There isn't room for three in marriage. As nice a guy as my OM was, he was poison not only to my M, but to me. I was obsessed, let my work go, distanced from my true family and spirituality and self-esteem.

So, I'll keep preaching NC and I'm sorry to sound like a broken record. Gotta let him go before it gets better. Then, it gets so much better! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

gentlsoul,

Thanks for writing. Your post helped me tonight. I, too, am AMAZED at the feelings developed in 3 or 4 months. I keep thinking it must be because of the intensity and frequency of the contact - a year's worth in 3 months! Not happy to hear that 9 weeks was worse than 5 weeks for you. Probably many things attributing to that.

I pulled away during my A too. I was on a high the entire time, and only going through the motions of doing the real life stuff. That was a blur, then the first month of withdrawal was an even worse blur.

I don't know where I read this (I've read so much lately), but somewhere it said that low self esteem plays a part in allowing ourselves into this situation. What do you think of that? I've never thought I had low self esteem, I really attribute it more to the needs not being met.

And gentlsoul, I feel guilt that I didn't have the strength to end it when my H found out. I feel weak that it had to take his W and him to end it. I think that fact makes me feel the worst.

You have done great things in focusing back on your H. I have just begun to be able to do that. I sometimes make myself do it even when I don't want to, to push the other thoughts aside. We are in the same boat.

I'm glad you made it through your temporary hardship, that should buoy you further and give us all courage. Thanks!

Hi Cards,
Sorry to scare you ~ I meant that at 5 weeks I started to feel the withdrawls subsize. I definitely feel better at 9 weeks than I did at 5, so don't worry. It's much better!

Yes, I've heard that about self-esteem. In my case it's true, but I don't think it's true for everyone. Have you read "After the Affair" by Janice Abrahams (hyphenated last name that I can't quite remember)? Anyway, the best book I've read. She details a number of reasons affairs happen - a lot of which can center on unmet childhood issues.

You know, guilt is our conscience talking to us and teaching us lessons. I feel guilty that I wasn't the one to end the A, that I was ready to jump ship so hastily, that I hurt everyone around me, that I broke my promise to love/honor/cherise until death do us part...all kinds of things that I am still sorting through. It means I'm listening to my conscience though - a lot of people don't. And if there is any beauty to any of this mess, it is that I am learning some HUGE lessons in self-discovery and what the meaning of true love is.

Before the A, when was the last time you gave thought to the meaning of true love? If you are like me, it was maybe around the mid-20's. I took marriage for granted. By the end of this process, I fully intend to be a better person, to love being married and to take joy in every day I get to spend with my H and kids....and to forgive myself after I've learned everything I can from my mistakes.

Sure, I wish I were the one to have ended the A, I guess 50% of people in a break-up say the same thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> We all have weaknesses Cards. Affair-proofing your marriage means learning what those are and protecting yourself from them in the future. Regardless, the end of the A was blessing. I will be stronger in the long run because I'm listening to my guilt and learning exponentially.

You are doing the same thing. Do you realize how far you have come since the start of this thread? You are following a great path and are starting to move on to M recovery. Incredible progress in a short time!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

How are all of you this morning?
(The FWS, the WS and the BS?)

I just read this article about "INTERNET AFFAIRS"
which included quotes by William Harley.

They are in the very same category as regular affairs; even if we PRETEND they are different!

Here is the website; it is worth reading this article.
The author even suggested stopping the Internet for 6 months, if need be.

One thing he said was we often don't know just how addicted we are until we try to STOP. Then the WITHDRAWAL PAIN sets in!

Click here: INTERNET AFFAIRS/ FANTASY ROMANCES!

MARY <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hey ya'll.

I'd like to comment that it's been helpful for me to read your comments as well. I know that my wife went through withdrawls for a longer period than she showed, but that's not something that we talked about much. I think she felt it would be too painful for me to hear, and at the same time, I think she felt that she "shouldn't" be having those feelings. I know better, but I'm not sure that she was able to think it through that well.

I know my wife villanized me during her affair as well. All she let herself see were the negatives...and none of the positives. Some of that was what led me to finally suspect how deep her emotional affair with the OM was.

Again, to maybe give you a little bit of hope in things though ladies, I'd like to share with you what things are like for my wife and I now. We still game together online, but it's a lot different than it used to be. We do things together a lot more, online and off. Tonite we won't be on much...becuase on Thursdays we sit and watch CSI and Without a Trace snuggled up on the couch.

She does still go online during the day, but its not like it used to be either. And I know it. And there is always the keylogger that's still running if I WERE to get worried about anything.

One of the things that I learned about her that I never really had realized before was that she actually loves astronomy. One of her fondest memories of our marriage was a time that we all went to a planetarium. I remember how entranced she was. We've spent several nites this winter outside snuggled together watching meteor showers. This Saturday I'm going to take her to a planetarium show, and some lunch. Without the kids. She doesnt' know WHAT I've got planned...just that I'm doing something small.

Again...just thought I'd post that to let you ladies know that things do get better with time, if you both work at it. I can't speak for your husbands, but I can say that I was GLAD that my wife was honest with me about her missing the OM. It was the dishonesty and hiding of feelings that got us to that point in the first place, so if she was at least admitting to me how she felt, it was a step in the right direction. So maybe, if you feel that your husbands would respond this way too, you could try talking with them about how you're feeling?

This is a bit off the subject but I was wondering is there somewhere on this site that explain the abbreviations? OM, WW, & such??? Thanks & all of you KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK. I'll write more later

CW

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Owl:
 Hey ya'll.

I'd like to comment that it's been helpful for me to read your comments as well. I know that my wife went through withdrawls for a longer period than she showed, but that's not something that we talked about much. I think she felt it would be too painful for me to hear, and at the same time, I think she felt that she "shouldn't" be having those feelings. I know better, but I'm not sure that she was able to think it through that well.

I know my wife villanized me during her affair as well. All she let herself see were the negatives...and none of the positives. Some of that was what led me to finally suspect how deep her emotional affair with the OM was.

Again, to maybe give you a little bit of hope in things though ladies, I'd like to share with you what things are like for my wife and I now. We still game together online, but it's a lot different than it used to be. We do things together a lot more, online and off. Tonite we won't be on much...becuase on Thursdays we sit and watch CSI and Without a Trace snuggled up on the couch.

She does still go online during the day, but its not like it used to be either. And I know it. And there is always the keylogger that's still running if I WERE to get worried about anything.

One of the things that I learned about her that I never really had realized before was that she actually loves astronomy. One of her fondest memories of our marriage was a time that we all went to a planetarium. I remember how entranced she was. We've spent several nites this winter outside snuggled together watching meteor showers. This Saturday I'm going to take her to a planetarium show, and some lunch. Without the kids. She doesnt' know WHAT I've got planned...just that I'm doing something small.

Again...just thought I'd post that to let you ladies know that things do get better with time, if you both work at it. I can't speak for your husbands, but I can say that I was GLAD that my wife was honest with me about her missing the OM. It was the dishonesty and hiding of feelings that got us to that point in the first place, so if she was at least admitting to me how she felt, it was a step in the right direction. So maybe, if you feel that your husbands would respond this way too, you could try talking with them about how you're feeling? <hr /></blockquote>

Hi All,

Owl, good to hear from you. Sure needed that positive outlook today. Last couple days have been harder for me. Not sleeping so well which makes everything worse. Gentlsoul & Mary, I did have periods of waking up sweating,too. I just brushed it off to some hormonal thing, but maybe it is the stress coming out.

I was home 2 days with sick daughter this week which gave me too much time to think and ponder. OM was in my mind way too much, taking me backwards I think. I re-read some of my journalizing which brought up the memories, etc. Probably same as happened to you gentlsoul. That messed with my sleep, which makes it harder to be strong & focus, and around & around the cycle goes. So, I'm glad to hear from you all again-what lifesavers you are.

Gentlsoul, I'm going to write your quote down (either I'm married, or I'm not!) and stick it somewhere so I'll see it over and over. And yes, Mary, I agree about the withdrawal from the addiction. I did start to suspect something was going on with me, though, if only one day would pass without contact. I would feel frantic & panicky. That should have been my first clue! Who would have ever thought of it as an addiction?

OWL, I have a question for you regarding the game playing. Since that is how I got involved too, I am fearful that I could get pulled in again. I have begun playing again, and although I've told myself NEVER again will I let myself fall into the "web" of another EA, I'm a little scared. How did you two deal with that issue, and do you think that is something to be concerned about? Also you said to keep being honest with H about missing OM, etc. Were you always receptive to that? I think my H is trying to put it behind him and he's not been as interested in talking about it lately. Do I force him to listen to me and bring up more pain for him? I hate to do that to him.

Thanks everyone!

EITHER I AM MARRIED OR I'M NOT.

That is definitely something to give much thought about.
There is no gray area there, is there?

Good to hear from you OWL (sounds like your marriage is doing GREAT) and you, Cards, have come such a long way!(You have a GOOD question for Owl about the online games.)
Gentlesoul, Owl and Suzette are indeed our inspiration.

I feel very sad for Luv's situation.
Maybe her H needs to realize how it would be if he lost her. Maybe some Plan B.
(She would need advice from someone much wiser than me.)

'Confused', how are things with you?
I think you said your OM has found another lady?
Probably a real-life person and not an Internet friend? Aren't you SO thankful you found this site?

Here is the answer to your question about the abbreviations.
(Originally posted by OneGoing.}
-Alphabetical Order-------------

A = Affair
BF = Biological Father/Boyfriend (based on "context")
BIL = Brother In Law
BM = Biological Mother
BS = Betrayed Spouse... some use FS = Faithful Spouse
BTW = By The Way
CB = Coined By
CP = Custodial Parent
CPS = Child Protective Services
CS = Child Support
CSE = Child Support Enforcement
D-Day = Discovery Day
DCW = Dept. of Child Welfare
DD = Darling Daughter
DH = Divorced Husband or Darling Husband
DS = Darling Son
DV-Day = Divorce Day
DW = Divorced Wife or Dear Wife
EA = Emotional Affair
EMA = Extra-marital Affair
EN = Emotional Needs
EOM = End Of Message
FIL = Father In Law
FOC = Friend Of the Court
FS = Faithful Spouse ("betrayed") some use BS = Betrayed Spouse
G&T = "Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"
GAL = Guardian Ad Litem
GF = Girlfriend
GP = Grand Parent(s)
H = Husband
HNHN = "His Needs, Her Needs"
IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMVHO = In My Very Humble Opinion
LB = Love Bust(er)
LMAO - Laughing My *Rump* Off
LOL = Laughing Out Loud
MB = Marriage Builders
MIL = Mother In Law
MLC = Mid-life Crisis
MM = Married Man
MSOL = Marital Standard Of Living
MW = Married Woman
NCP = Non Custodial Parent
OC = Other Child (S's and OP's)
OM = Other Man
OMW = Other Man's Wife
OP = Other Person
OPS = Other Persons's Spouse
OW = Other Woman
OWH = Other Woman's Husband
PA = Physical Affair
PAS = Parental Alienation Syndrome
POJA = The Policy of Joint Agreement
PTC = Patience, Time and Consistency (CB & NSR... for Plan A to work!)
P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens (CB & NSR... see Inspire (20))
ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *Rump* Off
S = Spouse
SAA = "Surviving An Affair"
SAHD = Stay At Home Dad
SAHM = Stay At Home Mom
SD = Step Daughter
SIL = Sister In Law
SF = Sexual Fulfillment (in context)
SF = Step Father (in context)
SM = Step Mother
SO = Significant Other
SS = Step Son
STBX = Soon To Be Ex
TDNT = That Do Nothing Thing (CB & NSR/RMA)
W = Wife
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WS = Wayward Spouse ("betrayer")

[ March 10, 2005, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: ItWon'tRainAlways ]

Mary,

You are so helpful & supportive. What a nurturing soul you are, responding to everyone's concerns.

Gentlsoul, I need your help with this one. Did you have to MAKE yourself get re-involved with your life? Did you have to MAKE yourself look forward to things again? I am still stuck in that. We are going on a family vacation in 3 weeks, and I'm having to force myself to start planning for it. Normally I'm the one doing everything, with great anticipation. Is this depression, or is it still withdrawal, or both? Did you feel this way?

Gosh everyone, you say I've come so far, but I don't feel it right now. Two steps forward, one step back? I guess I need to just expect that for a while, right? I will get the book you recommend gentlsoul. Reinforcement over and over and over.

Thank you all.

Cards-

I didn't exactly follow Dr H's plan here completely when I first learned of my wife's EA. Once the choice was made and she didn't get on the plane to go live with OM, we were faced with how to actually talk with each other. We spent that day, and that weekend, being "brutally honest" with each other. Telling each other exactly what we felt, why we felt that way, etc... There was a lot we couldn't agree on at that time, but we decided not to battle over it. But then the withdrawl REALLY set in...and she got really nasty for about 3 weeks. During that time, I plan A'd as best I could, without even knowing what that was at the time. I was always willing to listen to what she had to say, even if it was something I found personally very painful. I just tried to be there for her, since she'd lost the other person she felt had been there for her. So I was pretty receptive, yes. I knew that SHE needed to heal too...and in truth, hadn't started giving much thought to my own healing at the time. I THINK that answers your question?

As far as online gaming, there were a couple of things we had to come to a realization of. One...she had access to the computers, and I had to work all day. There really wasn't much I could do to keep her off, so it made sense to work out a game plan for dealing with it. We really didn't talk about this until after she'd made the choice to reconcile. Two, we needed to understand WHY the affair happened, what led to it, and how could we prevent it again. We got that from MC. Three...she started demonstrating her willingness to reconcile and to make things right before she started to really go back online. And...when we did, we did it in a way that would have made it darn hard for the OM to contact her or I in anyway. (used different servers than we'd played on before)

So, when she first started going back on, it was WITH me. ONLY with me. So that we both felt more comfortable. And, we FINALLY got her to recognize one of her biggest weaknesses that led to the affair...the fact that she never learned what boundaries to draw in opposite sex friendships. No talk about relationships, no complaining about your spouse, marriage, etc...a lot of other things. She never realized how her actions made her appear available to other men. Once we got that worked out, it became a little easier to trust her, especially since the majority of her time online was still spent with me. That, and at first I always knew I could pull log files, keylogger files, etc, and see ANYTHING she did online was a reassurance for me. And honestly, I think that her KNOWING I could do that kept her from slipping up and contacting the OM while she was still missing him. It wasn't until she realized I'd hacked her email account and had SEEN the last email he'd sent her that she FINALLY sent an NC email to him. Up to that point, she'd maintained the ol "but we can still be friends" mantra. She requested I re-install the keylogger a few months ago because of our kids online activity...and her willingness to do that was a huge reassurance to me. It showed me that she's still got nothing to hide.

If I were you, I'd follow some of Dr H's advice...if you're going to go back online, take MAJOR steps to prevent contact with the OM again. Delete your old email account, so he can't send you anything later down the road. Same with any IM systems you used. Put a keylogger on your computer, and let your husband monitor it. Give your husband access to everything...so that he can reassure himself about your trustworthiness, and you know that you can't get away with anything either. It helps to put the OM "out of reach". And...again, look for the warning signs in an opposite sex friendship...talk with a counselor (and your husband) about what's appropriate, and what's not. Just my thoughts.

THANK YOU OWL, for taking the time to respond to me. There's a lot for me to think about in what you wrote. Very interesting to consider exactly what's being read into the messages & writings we send. Probably there are people out there that know exactly what to look for in a conversation in order to start something up. Hhhmmmm. Good food for thought. I really need to go back and think about those early conversations. Actually I never 'bashed' my H at all. Neither of us did that. But there was talk of, 'same old thing' at home. That was probably the first commonality to get it getting.

I will read again your entire response, as I'm sure there is info that will help us.

Thanks again!

Owl has some great advice. For me, sharing everything with my H about what happened (yes, everything) and what I was going through internally was a good outlet for me and an opportunity to connect with my H. I couldn't really open up though until about 3 weeks after NC. I did let him guide me as to what he wanted to hear, because I really didn't want to hurt him. I am blessed with someone who has been very supportive, like Owl. All he has asked is that I'm completely honest. I have found that as the secrets go away, and the A is exposed in the light, the mysterious and alluring qualities die and it becomes what it really was.

BTW, that book is "After the Affair" by Janis A. Spring.

Putting away all the reminders of the A really helped me too. I don't look at the e-mails and the pictures, the momentos and the letters. Haven't for weeks. Stopped checking voice mail first thing in the morning...too many triggers. Staying off the on-line services, except the healthy ones like this, are good for awhile until you feel strong.

Cards, I did have to force myself back into family activities. It isn't unusual to start recovery not quite sure how you feel about your H. The more you involve yourself back in, the better is feels, but really not until the worst of the withdrawls are over. I remember a family vacation I had to take about 13 days after NC. It was a beautiful resort but I was miserable. You should be a lot better in 3 weeks if you stick to NC. Throwing yourself into planning the vacation should be a great tool to combat the withdrawls. Keep diligently forcing yourself to be busy and thinking about other things. Be patient with yourself - it takes time and effort to get through the withdrawls. After that, getting involved with your H and family becomes easier. It pays off, and you have my word on that.

The night sweats, lack of sleep thing - I think it is withdrawl, stress and depression. You know, earlier I mentioned the vicious cycle they play on your mind and body. First the withdrawl puts you in depression, then the depression worsens and then you feel worse about missing the OM, and so it goes. Waking up in the night is a hallmark symptom of depression. I keep saying this, but AD's help you cope. They don't cover up feelings and elevate mood, they help keep your seratonin (sp?) levels up so you can cope better with the stress you are under.

Yep - two steps up, one step back. You are doing it though Cards! Here's a saying I put at my computer to read whenever I felt bad:

"Come grow old with me. The best is yet to be." - Robert Browning. There is still so much undiscovered wonderfulness at home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the list!!! I'll write more when I'm able.

CW

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ItWon'tRainAlways:
 EITHER I AM MARRIED OR I'M NOT.

That is definitely something to give much thought about.
There is no gray area there, is there?

Good to hear from you OWL (sounds like your marriage is doing GREAT) and you, Cards, have come such a long way!(You have a GOOD question for Owl about the online games.)
Gentlesoul, Owl and Suzette are indeed our inspiration.

I feel very sad for Luv's situation.
Maybe her H needs to realize how it would be if he lost her. Maybe some Plan B.
(She would need advice from someone much wiser than me.)

'Confused', how are things with you?
I think you said your OM has found another lady?
Probably a real-life person and not an Internet friend? Aren't you SO thankful you found this site?

Here is the answer to your question about the abbreviations.
(Originally posted by OneGoing.}
-Alphabetical Order-------------

A = Affair
BF = Biological Father/Boyfriend (based on "context")
BIL = Brother In Law
BM = Biological Mother
BS = Betrayed Spouse... some use FS = Faithful Spouse
BTW = By The Way
CB = Coined By
CP = Custodial Parent
CPS = Child Protective Services
CS = Child Support
CSE = Child Support Enforcement
D-Day = Discovery Day
DCW = Dept. of Child Welfare
DD = Darling Daughter
DH = Divorced Husband or Darling Husband
DS = Darling Son
DV-Day = Divorce Day
DW = Divorced Wife or Dear Wife
EA = Emotional Affair
EMA = Extra-marital Affair
EN = Emotional Needs
EOM = End Of Message
FIL = Father In Law
FOC = Friend Of the Court
FS = Faithful Spouse ("betrayed") some use BS = Betrayed Spouse
G&T = "Give & Take: The Secret to Marital Compatibility"
GAL = Guardian Ad Litem
GF = Girlfriend
GP = Grand Parent(s)
H = Husband
HNHN = "His Needs, Her Needs"
IMO = In My Opinion
IMHO = In My Humble Opinion
IMVHO = In My Very Humble Opinion
LB = Love Bust(er)
LMAO - Laughing My *Rump* Off
LOL = Laughing Out Loud
MB = Marriage Builders
MIL = Mother In Law
MLC = Mid-life Crisis
MM = Married Man
MSOL = Marital Standard Of Living
MW = Married Woman
NCP = Non Custodial Parent
OC = Other Child (S's and OP's)
OM = Other Man
OMW = Other Man's Wife
OP = Other Person
OPS = Other Persons's Spouse
OW = Other Woman
OWH = Other Woman's Husband
PA = Physical Affair
PAS = Parental Alienation Syndrome
POJA = The Policy of Joint Agreement
PTC = Patience, Time and Consistency (CB & NSR... for Plan A to work!)
P.U.S.H. = Pray Until Something Happens (CB & NSR... see Inspire (20))
ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *Rump* Off
S = Spouse
SAA = "Surviving An Affair"
SAHD = Stay At Home Dad
SAHM = Stay At Home Mom
SD = Step Daughter
SIL = Sister In Law
SF = Sexual Fulfillment (in context)
SF = Step Father (in context)
SM = Step Mother
SO = Significant Other
SS = Step Son
STBX = Soon To Be Ex
TDNT = That Do Nothing Thing (CB & NSR/RMA)
W = Wife
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WS = Wayward Spouse ("betrayer") <hr /></blockquote>

Hey all,
I'm still catching up on all the posts but wanted to post anyway. I just got back from a business trip and found out hub read all my earlier posts. Which was hard for him I'm sure, but also makes it hard for me to spill my feelings out.

I'm still in withdrawl and missing OM terribly. I haven't talked to him, though I have emailed him. I think H told him not to talk to me, which is good I suppose, but doesn't make me feel any better. H seems to be wanting this all wrapped up and us happily back in love. He jumped on me as soon as I got home. All the pain just came flooding back. I'm just not ready, I keep telling him. I need time for the withdrawl. I guess I need to work on the NC as well.

Glad to see new faces out there, sorry you've been brought here. I will post more replys when I can.

--win

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by win bin:
I have emailed him. <hr /></blockquote>Do NOT contact the OM.

This is the height of disrespect for your husband and for your marriage.

There is absolutely no legitimate reason for you to contact OM.

What is your plan for recovery?

Pep

Pep,

I'm working through the withdrawl slowly. H and I just got the his needs book and we will be going through that. Yes, I did contact him. But I realized I shouldn't have. We're just starting on recovery. Have a long way to go.

win

Recovery does not begin until there is NO CONTACT.

You are still having an affair.

I started a new thread especially for you because I care.

Pep

Pep,

I have not had contact or spoken to OM in 10 days. I did email him but he hasn't emailed me back. I know I shouldn't have. I'll ck for your other thread.

-win

Hi guys, Things are looking very bleak over here. They are back in contact, the lies, the justification, the blaming, the fog, it's all back in full force. I am rapidly approaching plan B because I don't think I have to strength to plan A anymore. I'm not sleeping, not eating, and I'm not faking it very well either. I'm just worried about throwing him into her arms and it turning into a PA. I feel this is exactly what he wants. But now it might be time to take care of me.

I'm sorry I don't have the energy or clarity right now to address everyone's posts, but I have been following along.

By best regards to you all.

((((((((Luv2bd))))))))
I'm so sorry that this is happening to you. How very painful. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It isn't over, not by a longshot. So, please hang in there. I confess I'm so new here that I really am not the best person to be giving advice because I've never had to pry a H away from OW.

You have been smart to Plan A. I think it's time to start exposing, but I'll leave that up to more experienced folks to advise.

I asked for help for you on a separate thread and bumped up your post. I'll say a special prayer for you tonight and will check in with you tomorrow.

Please take care of yourself first and try and get some sleep and nourishing food.

luv2bd

I'm glad gentlsoul got you started on your own thread. You need input aimed directly for you right now. I will follow your thread to see how you're doing. I am glad you posted & are seeking help.

I am still battling the "closure" thing, but a couple new developments may help. Yesterday my H read some of my posts and became aware that I hadn't stopped contact when he discovered. He read how it ultimately ended by OM wife discovery. He also read about how I called him. He didn't know there had ever been phone contact. I was terrified, just like back to the day of discovery. But also relieved, I think I really wanted to come clean about everything. And I told him so. I explained that when he discovered & my 2 two worlds collided, I was not mentally able to make any promises. I wasn't. I had panic attacks that week and didn't know what was up. Fortunately, he has some understanding of addictions, his family battles some of these things. He was very understanding. I told him the phone call was about getting closure and hearing from OM that it was over. I know these things blew away some more trust, but I feel it was a good step. He was mostly concerned that it had started back up. I assured him that it hadn't and that I was in so much a better place than a month ago.

I can now see that honesty with H is very important. It actually helps to take away the "fantasy" aspect of the OM. Hopefully it will help me think of him less. I really WANT this to be over in my head. I WANT to move on and spend my energies elsewhere.

I encouraged him to read more & look at the books i have, so he has an even better understanding.

I also confided to a close friend at work yesterday. I feel this step was an acknowledgement and acceptance on my part that it is over. It felt good to tell someone.

Thank you again for all your support!

[ March 11, 2005, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: cardsonly ]

Cards-

I can't stress how important it is to your husband that you confess EVERYTHING...and leave no "emotional bombs" for him to find out later!

Please....re-read that above sentence again.

The more he "stumbles" into things after he thinks he knows everything, the longer and harder the recovery is going to be for both of you. Today is the 10-month anniversary of my d-day...I feel like crap. I know nothing new is going on, but the memories are still there. It was this time last year when they got serious...

About 2 months ago, I was doing some looking through old cell phone bills to look at possibly changing our plan (I work for a major cell company, and they provided a new employee option). I needed to decide which one would make better money sense for us to use. And during that, I "stumbled" across the fact that my wife had called her OM twice after she hadn't gotten on the plane...and she'd never told me about either one. During that time, she'd made a huge production of leaving her IM conversations up with him when she'd broken NC so I could see what was going on...bragged about "hiding nothing"...but NEVER mentioned the two calls.

Even when I asked her about them when I found out about it, her response was "I don't remember what we talked about". Pure BS...but not worth battling over, since I know that nothing further is going on.

Anyway, my point is that it's a major setback everytime your husband learns something new that you never revealed to him. For him, it's like you've kept lying to him all that time. So please, if you really do want to help HIM out, open up and tell him the WHOLE truth. Just my thoughts.

Win

I too have bad days when I'm missing the OM. I let myself think about all the e-mails, phone conversations and times we were together. But I'm holding strong and not making contact with him. He e-mails me once a week to say hi and he hopes I'm doing ok. He also calls about once every 2-3 weeks. I have quit telling him how much I miss and love him because he would just say I know. We even talked of marriage and a future together but I know deep in my heart that it could never be what a marriage is suppose to be. What I'm having such a hard time with is missing his love. My hubby thinks it was just an online & phone affair and I can never tell him the truth. It's hard to be in counseling when you are hiding half your heart & soul from your spouse. I'm doing better every day but have my really bad days. And I know I have a long long way to go.

I just don't understand why I'm so angry at my hubby for the affair ending. The OM broke it off because he said he could not be the cause of breaking up a family. Our biggest problem is that there has been no sexual attraction to my hubby since we got married 20 yrs ago and he's quite aware of it. But he's willing to forgo that for the rest of our good qualtites (his words) But then knowing what I could have with AM how can I live like this the rest of my life. God I wish I could just be brainwashed and feel for my hubby like I did the other man....We used to be best friends until the death of my Mom a year ago. And an emotional affair that happened at work which he knows a bit about but not the whole story. My mothers death was very hard on me and the fall out really did a lot of damage to our marriage--but it's a long long story. Let's put it this way he was on my step-dads side and I was on my siblings side and it hurt me more than he could ever know.

Has anyone else gone through no sexual attraction and gotten it back???? The counsler asked why I wanted to save my marriage and my list is as follows, does anyone think I can save my marriage and not be so bitter towards my hubby?

1. Our 17 DD
2. His 30 SS & His 27 SD
3. What we've built the last 20 yrs (Material things and I know no one could love me like he does)
4. Our Friends & Family

Sorry if I'm rambling but my heart & mind are in such turmoil and I feel so LOST.....

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by win bin:
 Hey all,
I'm still catching up on all the posts but wanted to post anyway. I just got back from a business trip and found out hub read all my earlier posts. Which was hard for him I'm sure, but also makes it hard for me to spill my feelings out.

I'm still in withdrawl and missing OM terribly. I haven't talked to him, though I have emailed him. I think H told him not to talk to me, which is good I suppose, but doesn't make me feel any better. H seems to be wanting this all wrapped up and us happily back in love. He jumped on me as soon as I got home. All the pain just came flooding back. I'm just not ready, I keep telling him. I need time for the withdrawl. I guess I need to work on the NC as well.

Glad to see new faces out there, sorry you've been brought here. I will post more replys when I can.

--win <hr /></blockquote>

I just figured out how to put my info here

WS (me) 43
BS 53
Married 20 yrs together 25 very happy for 18
SS-30 SD-27 DD (Ours together 17)
EA began 1/04
PA began 3/04
D-Day many

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by confusedwoman:
My hubby thinks it was just an online & phone affair and I can never tell him the truth.<hr /></blockquote>The truth will set you free.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's hard to be in counseling when you are hiding half your heart & soul from your spouse.<hr /></blockquote>It's not really "counseling" until everyone knows the truth.

A BIG waste of time and money ... lying to your H in MC and (probably) lying to the counselor too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just don't understand why I'm so angry at my hubby for the affair ending. <hr /></blockquote>This is common, expected, and NOTHING NEW.

You are angry with your husband because keeping this HUGE secret from him is very costly for you.

It's an expensive secret .... costing you energy, self respect, anxiety, spiritual sickness, and it becomes necessary for you to guard your heart from intimacy with your husband ---> and your ANGER is your tool to keep you emotionally distant from your husband.

DIShonesty is killing your love for your husband ... NOT your "love" for OM.

Trust me, this is nothing special or different ... your affair is as common as they come.

Pep

[ March 11, 2005, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Confused-

Part of the reason you're still feeling this way is because you're still in the FOG. You're not in NC...he's still contacting you every day!!! That is NOT NC...NC is two way.

The problem is, you've still got hopes of it somehow eventually working out. You've not come clean to your husband, and you've not totally broken off contact. In that kind of circumstance, how could you possibly expect things to heal in your marriage?

You had something with your husband, or you would never have lasted 20 years. But right now, you are still not willing to invest in him, because YOU are still accepting from your OM.

BREAK IT OFF. OPEN to your husband, and THEN MC will actually become a tool to help. Right now, you're wasting your time in MC, you're wasting your money in MC, and you're still not going to accomplish anything until you REALLY try to do something.

Once you REALLY try to do something, I'd bet you'll be astounded at how you're own memories of what you shared with your husband will change.

Confusedwoman... I started a thread especially for YOU to express yourself and ASK FOR HELP!

Pep

Pep

Thank you for your response. YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!! I know deep in my heart nothing can change if I don't be 100% honest. But I'm so afraid for so many reasons to tell my hubby the WHOLE truth. It will destroy him and he's on the edge right now. Hes taking pills for anxiety and I'm so afraid it would make him more suicidal then he already is. It will also hurt him deeply because of the sexual problems we have had since we got married. Like I said before he's a very controling and possessive man. And it will just make it worse. I will tell the OM to leave me alone completely the next time he contacts me. I do not have contact with him everyday, but as you and others have pointed out. There needs to be no contact so I can let it ALL go and quit thinking in the back of my mind that he might change his mind and want to see me again, and boy you sure read my mind on that one!!!

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by confusedwoman:
My hubby thinks it was just an online & phone affair and I can never tell him the truth.<hr /></blockquote>The truth will set you free.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's hard to be in counseling when you are hiding half your heart & soul from your spouse.<hr /></blockquote>It's not really "counseling" until everyone knows the truth.

A BIG waste of time and money ... lying to your H in MC and (probably) lying to the counselor too.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just don't understand why I'm so angry at my hubby for the affair ending. <hr /></blockquote>This is common, expected, and NOTHING NEW.

You are angry with your husband because keeping this HUGE secret from him is very costly for you.

It's an expensive secret .... costing you energy, self respect, anxiety, spiritual sickness, and it becomes necessary for you to guard your heart from intimacy with your husband ---> and your ANGER is your tool to keep you emotionally distant from your husband.

DIShonesty is killing your love for your husband ... NOT your "love" for OM.

Trust me, this is nothing special or different ... your affair is as common as they come.

Pep <hr /></blockquote>

Thank you Pep---I don't understand how the "thread" thing works. I'm sorry I'm such a ditz sometimes lol

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Pepperband:
 Confusedwoman... I started a thread especially for YOU to express yourself and ASK FOR HELP!

Pep <hr /></blockquote>

Wow now I'm sitting here in tears. I know my hubby and I had a wonderful life---but maybe I don't deserve to be happy. I have done so many things wrong in my marriage. I feel so LOST

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Owl:
 Confused-

Part of the reason you're still feeling this way is because you're still in the FOG. You're not in NC...he's still contacting you every day!!! That is NOT NC...NC is two way.

The problem is, you've still got hopes of it somehow eventually working out. You've not come clean to your husband, and you've not totally broken off contact. In that kind of circumstance, how could you possibly expect things to heal in your marriage?

You had something with your husband, or you would never have lasted 20 years. But right now, you are still not willing to invest in him, because YOU are still accepting from your OM.

BREAK IT OFF. OPEN to your husband, and THEN MC will actually become a tool to help. Right now, you're wasting your time in MC, you're wasting your money in MC, and you're still not going to accomplish anything until you REALLY try to do something.

Once you REALLY try to do something, I'd bet you'll be astounded at how you're own memories of what you shared with your husband will change. <hr /></blockquote>

Oh,Wise OWL!

I do know you are right. There are no excuses or justifications for not telling all. At what point should your W have told you about the calls? At the point she made them she probably wasn't out of the fog, right? So a few days or weeks later when she REALLY committed to you & M she was probably thinking that she was so much further in her progress that why should she take herself and you backwards. I'm not saying that reasoning is right, but for myself when I was in that "survival" mode of the fog/withdrawal and just trying to get through the days that's how I thought. Of course, as the BS it makes you wonder if even yet your WS is being honest. What a tangled web we weave......

As far as her making those calls later, I think that just attests to the fact that the withdrawal takes a long time and a moment of weakness can happen out of the blue. Even thought I honestly do not plan any more calls or contact with my OM, I am not to the point where I can rip up that phone number.

I will make sure I consider that EVERYTHING is out in the open so that there are no more surprises. Thanks for bringing that up!

confusedwoman,

There are posts to you on the thread Pep began. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Rose

OK...two things here.

ONE- I forgot to create a signature here, like the one I have on "the other board". My signature there reads "Wise...no. Been through enough to value wisdom...certainly!"

I am NOT wise. I've been through a lot. I know just enough now to know how much more I don't know. And believe it or not, the Owl monikor has nothing to do with being wise...it's an personal thing that only a few who know me know the story behind.

TWO-

I posted my last response to Confused in the thread that Pepper created for her...so that she could get her own situation dealt with accordingly.

You're right on the reasons why my wife didn't tell me about the calls. And I know it...in my head. But I can tell you that it was a knife in my heart sitting there seeing them for the first time.

Remember this...the REAL pain your spouse is feeling is from the deception and lies that you made between the two of you. It's the violated trust that's the most damaging. And it takes a LOT of work, hard work, to re-build that. And then after that, it just takes time and love for him to heal. I'm still working on that last part.

Hang in there...do the right things, for your husband, and your family, and most of all yourself. I know you feel guilty, like you're the worlds worst person...you're not. But...now you can start doing things to show yourself that your not!

Confusedwoman,

I am going to jump on the bandwagon that Pep, and Owl started. Let's look at what you have said for just a second <blockquote>quote:<hr /> My hubby thinks it was just an online & phone affair and I can never tell him the truth. It's hard to be in counseling when you are hiding half your heart & soul from your spouse. I'm doing better every day but have my really bad days. And I know I have a long long way to go.<hr /></blockquote>It is unlikely you will ever get there with this deep secret within you. You will forever have to protect a part of you so that your H won't find out, so that you won't slip and say something in passion. You will NEVER be able to allow your H into your heart so that you could have something that you crave.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I just don't understand why I'm so angry at my hubby for the affair ending. The OM broke it off because he said he could not be the cause of breaking up a family. Our biggest problem is that there has been no sexual attraction to my hubby since we got married 20 yrs ago and he's quite aware of it.<hr /></blockquote>Perhaps, you need to realize something about sexual attraction. It is hormonal sort of, but mostly it is an issue of perception. What attracts one person to another without even knowing them is the perceptions in OUR minds that they would fulfil us in some or many ways. You need to seriously consider what you like, what you love, and what you respect about your H. You also need to consider the love busters he does that turn you off. If you address these things I am betting you will see your H in a new light.

When you tell your H the truth about the A, you will learn a lot about him. He needs to know this. He needs to have all of the information to make a determination if you are the woman for him. Further, you need to watch him address this. You will learn a lot. This is NOT pain for pleasure. This is pain that must be endured to rebuild a marriage BETTER than the one you had.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> But he's willing to forgo that for the rest of our good qualtites (his words) But then knowing what I could have with AM how can I live like this the rest of my life. God I wish I could just be brainwashed and feel for my hubby like I did the other man....We used to be best friends until the death of my Mom a year ago.<hr /></blockquote>So what you are saying that your H has a lot less to do with this than you think. You have failed to see that he loves you deep enough to forego sex. You have failed to see correlations between YOUR lose of your mother and how you treated him and the marriage. You have failed to tell him of another EA suggesting that your OM is NOT THE man, just a man you decided to bestow your affections on. Yet, through all of this stands your H.

You have not figured out he loves you and that he is stronger than you realize. You are angry with him because he has failed to fold like you expected him to, and by not folding he is forcing YOU to face your failures, your lies, and the fact that YOU made decisions to betray him and gave yourself permission to do so.

Time to face these things CW. It is time.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> And an emotional affair that happened at work which he knows a bit about but not the whole story. My mothers death was very hard on me and the fall out really did a lot of damage to our marriage--but it's a long long story. Let's put it this way he was on my step-dads side and I was on my siblings side and it hurt me more than he could ever know.<hr /></blockquote>Without probing further,he probably had his reasons as did you, but they were NOT to destroy the marriage. Right?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Has anyone else gone through no sexual attraction and gotten it back???? The counsler asked why I wanted to save my marriage and my list is as follows, does anyone think I can save my marriage and not be so bitter towards my hubby?

1. Our 17 DD
2. His 30 SS & His 27 SD
3. What we've built the last 20 yrs (Material things and I know no one could love me like he does)
4. Our Friends & Family<hr /></blockquote>The short answer is YES you can save your marriage. That is a no brainer, it is done around here all of the time. And by definition if you save your marriage, you will not only NOT be bitter toward your H, you will love him. The two go hand in hand. Look at your list and look at #3. If he did not love you, this would be harder given what you have done. But he does. He needs honesty, you need honesty, and THEN you two can make decisions about the marriage.

I find it remarkable that you have had two A's, you claim to have no attraction for your H, you claim many bad things about him, you claim you don't really want the marriage, you see no hope for it, you have had no problem hurting him to date, and yet...you worry about telling him the truth. Does this make any sense? Of course not. If you want to find out IF your marriage is worth or can be saved start at bedrock...honesty, radical honesty about your A's, your feelings, your hurts. And THEN talk about your marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Sorry if I'm rambling but my heart & mind are in such turmoil and I feel so LOST.....
<hr /></blockquote>Yup, you are lost, but you have found... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> a place that no punches will be pulled but where people are familiar with your situation. Sadly, you are NOT unique.

God Bless,

JL

((((((((((((Confusedwoman)))))))))))

Do not despair!!! There is a way out of all this and you can recover all the love you have for your H. You are not a bad person. This A is taking a huge toll on you and your M though and it's time to break free, right? If you follow all the great advice on this site, you can form a plan of action and get to a place where you are happy again and your M may be better than before. We'll help you!

A couple of things:

1) To reply to any post, you don't have to hit the "quote marks" at the top of the post. Instead, scroll to the VERY bottom of the page and on the left hand side, hit the buttom that says "Post Reply." Much simpler.

2) Pepperband started a thread especially for you. That means that instead of going through this thread called "Help Withdrawing from Online Affair", you go to the subject with your name in it ("Confusedwoman This Thread is for You").

Go tell your story hon - and I'll talk to you there. You can even copy what you've already written, and post it from start to finish. It's a safe place and you'll feel good when you establish your plan for recovery.

The truth will indeed set you free. I was where you were - and now I am recovering. So I wish for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Morning all,

Here is something inspiring and uplifting I want to share with all you ladies on this thread whoâ€™re currently going through withdrawal and/or in pain from your online Aâ€™s (this was of much help & inspiration to me during my own withdrawal and early recovery):

~SOMETIMES~

Sometimes people come into your life
and you know right away that they were meant to be there,
to serve some sort of purpose, teach you a lesson,
or to help you figure out who you are or who you want to become.
You never know who these people may be
(possibly your roommate, neighbor, professor, long lost friend,
lover, or even a complete stranger),
but when you lock eyes with them,
you know at that very moment they will affect your life in some profound way.
And sometimes things happen to you that may seem horrible, painful, and unfair at first,
but in reflection you find that without overcoming those obstacles
you would have never realized your potential, strength, willpower, or heart.

People come into your life for a reason, a season or a lifetimeâ€¦
When you figure out which one it is, you will know what to do for each person.

When someone is in your life for a REASON
It is usually to meet a need you have expressed.
They have come to assist you through a difficulty,
to provide you with guidance and support,
to aid you physically, emotionally, or spiritually.
They may seem like a godsend, and they are!
They are there for the reason you need them to be.
Then, without any wrongdoing on your part, or at an inconvenient time,
this person will say or do something to bring the relationship to an end.
Sometimes they die.
Sometimes they walk away.
Sometimes they act up and force you to take a stand.
What we must realize is that our need has been met,
our desire fulfilled, their work is done.
The prayer you sent up has been answered.
And now it is time to move on.

Then people come into your life for a SEASON
Because your turn has come to share, grow, or learn.
They bring you an experience of peace, or make you laugh.
They may teach you something you have never done.
They usually give you an unbelievable amount of joy.
Believe it! It is real! But, only for a seasonâ€¦

LIFETIME relationships teach you lifetime lessons:
things you must build upon in order to have a solid emotional foundation.
Your job is to accept the lesson, love the person,
and put what you have learned to use in all other relationships and areas of your life.

The people you meet who affect your life,
and the success and downfalls you experience,
help to create who you are and who you become.
Even the bad experiences can be learned from.
In fact, they are probably the most poignant and important ones.

Everything happens for a reason.
Nothing happens by chance or by means of good luck.
Illness, injury, love, lost moments of true greatness,
and sheer stupidity all occur to test the limits of your soul.
Without these small tests, whatever they may be,
life would be like a smoothly paved, straight, flat road to nowhere.
It would be safe and comfortable, but dull and utterly pointless.
Life is an unceasing process of change.

Just as the seeds of the poppy fall back to the earth,
only to flourish yet again,
so too, will the proverbial circle of life touch our own existence.
Hardships may indeed befall us,
but the ebb and flow of life energy prods us to survive.

The Bible say: "To everything there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the sun.
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant,
and a time to pluck up that which is planted..."

Whether we are experiencing the death of a loved one,
an ended relationship, or grief for the past,
as incomprehensible as it may seem, life does go on.
Troubling circumstances and heart-wrenching situations
may inwardly tear at our heart and cause us to feel like crumbling,
but let us not forget that even in cemeteries grow flowers, grass and trees.
Death, be it in the loss of friend or loved one,
or mourning for a relationship or friendship failed, indeed has its sting,
but as long as Christ promises us hope, life shall not cease.

God's grace is as a healing hand.
As does the sweet scent of the poppy linger in the air,
the warm memories and love for those we have lost
will remain always safe in our hearts.

If someone hurts you, betrays you, or breaks your heart forgive them,
for they have helped you learn about trust
and the importance of being cautious to when you open your heart.
If someone loves you, love them back unconditionally,
not only because they love you, but because in a way,
they are teaching you to love and how to open your heart and eyes to things.
Make every day count.

Appreciate every moment and take from those moments
everything that you possibly can for you may never be able to experience it again.
Talk to people that you have never talked to before, and actually listen.
Let yourself fall in love, break free, and set your sights high.
Hold your head up because you have every right to.
Tell yourself you are a great individual and believe in yourself,
for if you don't believe in yourself,
it will be hard for others to believe in you.
You can make of your life anything you wish.

Create your own life and then go out and live it with absolutely no regrets.
Life is about living, and that is why God offered us His Son,
so that we may have eternal life.
A life without Christ will rob one of salvation,
but with Him, all things are possible!

[ March 14, 2005, 04:34 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

I haven't posted in a few days. I suppose it's a good sign that I have been less obssessed and more able to live my life.

I believe I am coming to some sort of acceptance that my EA is REALLY over. I think I've stopped fighting the fact that it's over. Although still fighting the NC, the deep down feelings of depressions have waned. Now just a sadness remains. Mourning the loss of the relationship I believe, and trying to let go. As I think of OM less, I find myself grabbing on to memories just to keep it a bit alive. I'm sure that will fade, too. Still hard to think of NEVER talking again to a person who meant so much and had so much impact. Even though the EA was wrong, it's hard to just sweep under the rug a person who affected my life so much. This has been a powerful, life-altering experience, and (right or wrong) OM was there.

I think part of it is that at this age, relationships & friendships don't come and go - they stay. It's not like highschool, where friends come and go. I'm accustomed to friends staying in my life, not relationships ending.

Suzet, your post ealier today meant so much. You have so much insight into what people need to hear and read. The post moved me to tears, and certainly helped me to see the "bigger picture".

Now that I'm approaching being able to concentrate on M, what next steps do I take? Which books can help me the most at this point? Thank you!

Cards,

I can identify so much with how hard it is to just sweep this OP "under the rug" when they meant so much to you. There really was a deep connection that we feel and it's hard to rid of that! I cared not only for this OM but I had also cared about his family and prayed for his family before and sometimes during the A. Have you thought about praying for this OP? Praying for his M? I have done that it it does help me to get my perspective back at times.

Yes 2BNormal,

I did pray for OM and his family & M, especially at the time when we were discovered. OM is Christian, as I am, and we struggled with the paradox of it all. Isn't it amazing that our emotions and needs are so strong that we could compromise everything we believe in? I am still puzzled by that! I will keep up reading your thread.

You need to take steps to break away. You can't progress until you do. Time is on your side, allow it to help you.

Cards,

OM and I are both Christians as well. His W is a Christian but not the kind of Christian W he desires and that is what drew him to me. He saw in me the Christian wife he wanted! Then we do what we did? It's very hard to think that we compromised everything! Thanks for reading my thread. I feel better in some ways today.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by cardsonly:

I did pray for OM and his family & M, especially at the time when we were discovered. OM is Christian, as I am, and we struggled with the paradox of it all.

<hr /></blockquote>I think it helps Christians stay 'real' to call something that is a sin, a sin .... not a 'paradox'.

You struggle with sin. There is no paradox contradiction. Sin is always something pleasurable. If you commit a sin, call it sin. There is hypocrisy in calling a sin a paradox.

Pep

[ March 14, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

Hhmmm. There is no denial that the EA was sinful and wrong.

We struggled with the paradox within ourselves - that each of us, God-fearing, Christian people were drawn to each other and formed a relationship. The fact that we acted totally against our values is the paradox. I was not referring to the EA as a paradox.

Cardsonly â€“

Just some food for thought - Immediately after d-day, my pastor (also our MC) suggested that I not even pray for FOM, because that kept my thoughts on FOM. Our feelings follow where our thoughts go. So, the theory is that if we change our thoughts, our feelings will change.

I vehemently disagreed with the pastor during those first few weeks, didnâ€™t believe him, and I thought he was terribly mean. As time went by, though, (itâ€™s 2 Â½ years later now), I discovered that the theory really works.

Change your thoughts, and your feelings will change. We canâ€™t change our feelings, but we can change our thoughts. It takes determination and time, but it is possible. You canâ€™t help it if you have a trigger (see a car like his, whatever), but you can stop yourself from dwelling on it and letting your thoughts go further on the subject. Tell yourself, â€œDonâ€™t go there!â€

After I would have a trigger, and felt awful, I would ask myself, â€œHow much of this am I doing on purpose?â€ When I was honest with myself, I discovered I could save myself a lot of heartache by changing where I let my thoughts go.

â€œStill hard to think of NEVER talking again to a person who meant so much and had so much impact.â€

When enough time goes by with NC (including not dwelling on thoughts of OM), you will be surprised that even the above feeling changes. As the â€œfog lifts,â€ reality sets in and you will be able to see the A and OM more clearly for what they really were. Itâ€™s easier to recognize and admit the OMâ€™s flaws, and believe it or not, he can actually lose his appeal.

I know what itâ€™s like to want to stop thinking about OM and feeling like I wasnâ€™t able to, but the good news is, I learned I really was able to. I would ask myself â€œDo you control your thoughts, or do your thoughts control you?â€ I wanted to be in control of my thoughts, not vice versa.

In no way am I trying to say itâ€™s not hard to break old habits. I know how hard it is. Anyhow, hang in there. Youâ€™re doing great so far.

God bless,

Rose

Rose-

Thank you for your post. I SO want to get to that point of being able to look back and laugh (?), or at least look back and wonder how I could've been so stupid. I guess every step of the way there is a new challenge - now it's controlling my thoughts. The last few weeks it was stopping myself from contact. It certainly makes sense that any thoughts of OM (even praying) just puts him in the mind. I actually have not been doing that recently for him, more for strength for myself and my M.

Thank you!

cardsonly,

You're welcome. Glad if my post can help. I know it's a tough road, but at least we keep walking down it instead of turning around and going back!

God bless,

Rose

Cards-

Maybe this will help you gain some perspective.

One year ago TODAY, my wife was just getting serious in her online affair. She was IMing her OM, and playing together with him online. Her withdraw from me at that time was tremendous. She absolutely felt like she was "falling out of love with (me), and more and more in love with (him)".

When I finally caught on, and her affair ended, she felt very much like you do right now. Her world had ended. She didn't see how she could ever love me again. (and while she wouldn't admit it then, she also couldn't see how I could ever love HER, after what she'd done). She had thoughts of him EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Fast forward one year, please.....

We just had one seriously awesome weekend. I took her on a surprise date. From there, we ended up spending the whole day (and most of the nite) together doing things with just the two of us. We went shopping, and walking. We shared the most romantic dinner either of us have EVER had!!! Our date started at noon on Saturday...it ended when we finally got back to the house 11 that nite. Our kids (all older teens) couldn't believe that we did that! Hehehe

What a change. What a tremendous difference in BOTH of us from a year ago.

You CAN do this too. What you are feeling does NOT have to be how you'll feel for the rest of your life. You can make it through this...and so can your marriage. Your husband sounds like an awesome man...start trying to concentrate on THAT when thoughts of the OM cross your mind. Start looking for the needs he was meeting...and start working with your husband and let him know what they are...so that HE can meet them for you.

Good luck, and hang in there.

Hey Cards,
You're doing so well in the process......you're beating it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

All the things you are feeling are so normal. Time does heal. You've chosen a wonderful path though, and I am rooting for you. You've been very strong in controlling your actions at a time your feelings were telling you to do something else. Feel proud of yourself for that, o.k.?? Take strength from your strength. You're choosing to be married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's cool to hear you speak of "what now?". My vote is to invest energy into your M now. As your thoughts and energies turn there, so will your heart soon follow. I'm thinking of setting up an appointment with Harley in the counseling center here. In fact, I'm sure I'm going to.

More time invested with H, the better I'm feeling. Good story -- Yesterday we went out on a date and he had a bottle of wine in the back seat of the car, in a picnic basket along with strawberries and cheese. Yum! Anyway, we stopped alongside the road in a picnic area. We went up to the top of a little hill. The year before, wildfires swept through Southern Cal here and this area we were in was burnt to a crisp. Now it's regrowing and grass is coming up and the trees are amazingly recovering.

Drank the wine, gotta a little tipsy and flirty (WOO HOO), smooched and well...aahh....ok let's not go there in a public forum. Anyway, we are walking back to the car and he points to a blue glass shard in the ground and tells me he thinks there is probably buried treasure underneath that. Yeah right, let's go. But he starts to dig. He digs up a letter in a plastic baggy. It was from him to me. He had gone up there the week before and planted it. It was a lovely letter to me, expressing how glad he was to have me back and how much he loves me.

Is that great, or what??!! Before all this bad stuff happened with the A, he never did anything like that. Well, from the ashes of the bonfire of my huge mistake, will come regrowth. It just takes time, patience and investment. I struggle too, but starting here on week 10: Things are so much better than before.

Hang in there Cards. You aren't that far behind me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suzet,

Great poem. Puts things in perspective.

--win

Gentlsoul, you are amazing that you can be so supportive with only a few more weeks under your belt than me. You're advice has been unwavering, and certainly you needed help even as you were helping others. I am so happy for you and your H and your recovery together. I know you had some rough days last week, so I hope you read the post that Suzet put on the thread early this morning. That was helpful to me, maybe it will help you too.

Owl, you are amazing, too. How can you be so understanding when you were the victim of this type of A? You have been through a lot, as you said. Your wife is lucky that you have worked so hard for your M. The fact that you can be encouraging and nonjudgmental is awesome. I only hope that you have found something here that has been helpful to you, too.

I am trying so hard to look down the road & see how this experience may possibly end up saving our marriage. If we had continued as we had for the last few years, not putting anything into it, we may not have been able to salvage it. What a wake-up call.

I apologized to my H again today for the pain & hurt I caused him. He is so forgiving, but almost too forgiving. He doesn't seem to want to go over it again. He keeps telling me to not worry about it, as he feels he has put me through a lot, too (not A's, other stresses & hardships). I am thankful that he is still trusting me.

Again, thank you both & others who have not been judgmental.

Cardsonly and win bin,

Iâ€™m glad the â€˜poemâ€™ I posted yesterday was helpful to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Also, please take a look at this thread I started today. It's guidelines to help FWS's get through withdrawal. You will find it helpful and you're welcome to post your thoughts on that thread.

Blessings,
Suzet

[ March 15, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]

Hello Cardsonly, ConfusedLady, Gentlesoul, Luv2B, Owl, WinBin, 2BNormal, Rose, Suzet and everyone else posting on this thread or even if you are reading only.

I am SO PROUD of all of you at the progress you have made in these past couple weeks.
Also I KNOW what a daily STUGGLE it is for you to stay in NC.

I just wanted you to know I am still reading this thread along with several others. (This is the only one I have ever posted on.)

Although I am still emailing with my widowed OM, I hope and pray that someday soon, I will have the strength to join all of you in NC. I am not at all there yet.

It seems to make such a difference when our H knows. When it is still a 'secret' it is so hard to STOP. The WILL TO STOP is just not there. YET!

I was watching a movie Saturday "Walk on the Moon" about a lady that was having an affair. This line stood out: "It is easy to be different with someone different."

Everyone of us having or having had on-line romances (or hands on affairs or EA) understand EXACTLY what that lady meant, true? We become no longer just wives and mothers (I'm also a grandma) and helpers in church and the community but a desirable woman.Sometimes after many years of marriage, we don't feel that romantic feeling anymore and when we do it is just SO EXCITING.

And yes, some of us tend to go off the deep end with this affection and attention from another man other than our H. We go GAA GAA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It is easy to get caught in the WEB.

Another important line from the movie was she was talking to her good hard working husband and said: "You do not deserve to be hurt."
THAT IS SO TRUE.

Our H's do not deserve this Hurt whatsoever. It is entirely our choice, our decision, our own Selfish desires, needs and wants for something or someone DIFFERENT to pay attention to us!
It is NOT because something is missing or lacking in our H but in ourselves.

I had an idea yesterday. I searched in the back of the closet and brought out a box of love letters my H and I had written one another when we were dating. I was 17, he was 19. I was amazed at the loving words and feelings.
(We was married at 18 (me) and 20 (H), 30 years ago.)

I would suggest if any of you have any of these old love letters stored away, get them out and re-read them.

My first exciting love for my H was felt in my heart as I read those letters and remembered our early romance.

Just me, Mary.

Ok I'm sure I will offend many with my post today, but I think it needs to be said.

The destruction of a marriage is not solely the fault of the WS. Believe it or not WS have been hurt as well, sometimes for years prior to any EA or A. And some BS can hide behind playing the victim and not taking responsibility for their part in the problems of M. It takes two people to be happy and in love in a marriage. And sometimes the BS never asks forgiveness for the pain and suffering that they have caused. I have many people who support and understand why I would want to end my marriage. They all know H and how he can be.

Its easy to jump on the WS and start name calling, but did you ever think they might have been in pain for a long time too? Finding attraction to someone who meets your needs is very easy to do. I'm not defending the WS actions, I'm just saying many BS seem to love to jump on them as the problem. An A is a symptom of a long standing problem in the M. They even say that in the book.

I think the MB is here to support people who are dealing with both ends of a marriage in trouble. People have feelings and they sometimes overtake you. And some marriages were dead before the A started.

It's great that everyone is doing well on this thread with NC. It certainly isn't an easy thing. But that's only step 1. The rest has to come from BS and WS together. I hope everyone can accomplish what needs to be done to work for a stronger marriage.

-win

Hi winbin,

Iâ€™m not offended by your post, and I understand what you mean. But, although I know you wrote that you arenâ€™t trying to defend the behavior, Iâ€™m afraid that no matter how itâ€™s worded, pointing out our BSâ€™s mistakes in our Mâ€™s sounds like an attempt to defend our behavior.

Itâ€™s true that both Sâ€™s need to re-evaluate the way they treat each other, and both need to forgive each other for past hurts. However, one of the main things we as WSâ€™s did wrong was to turn to someone outside our M instead of first working on the M or getting D. To me it seems that an M isnâ€™t dead until D.

I donâ€™t think either side can get well until we stop blaming the other side for what happened. I do believe that itâ€™s impossible to salvage an M unless both Sâ€™s forgive each other for the past, and make an effort to move forward by starting over with a new M and better ways of treating each other. That takes a lot of soul searching, forgiveness, studying, MC, etc.

God bless â€“

Rose

Hi Win Bin,
Yep, there are plenty of marriages that are unhappy. Where one spouse or the other, or both are not doing their part in the M...abusive, uncaring, thoughtless, you name it.

When you are in that kind of M, the unhappy spouse has the responsibility to address their unhappiness - speak to the offending spouse about change, work on recovery, or maybe even leave the marriage and get a divorce after trying everythinig you can to fix it. Maybe you recognize your unhappiness but don't want to leave for various reasons (religious, lazy, children), whatever. It's a choice to be M or not and, unless there is an open marriage where both spouses agree to see other people, the M is supposed to be monogomous.

What is not healthy for anyone, including the unhappy spouse, is to have a secret A and pretend you can live with an unhappy marriage. It doesn't work and it isn't fair to an unknowing spouse, who thinks marriage is monogomous.

So, my humble opinion today is: if the M is unhappy, deal with that directly and not find solace in another relationship on the side in a secretive manner behind the spouse's back. Unhappy marriages only get better with work and change in behavior. Communication needs to take place and a commitment to change where necessary.

Hope this makes sense. I've had too much coffee today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by win bin:
Ok I'm sure I will offend many with my post today, but I think it needs to be said. <hr /></blockquote>You are not offensive.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />The destruction of a marriage is not solely the fault of the WS.<hr /></blockquote>This is true.

And it takes integrity to properly deal with a marriage gone wrong.

Having an affair is a way of coping with an unhappy marriage that lowers one's integrity.

It's not OK, no matter what.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Believe it or not WS have been hurt as well, sometimes for years prior to any EA or A.<hr /></blockquote>Yes. Hurt is universal. Why deal with hurt by ADDING another problem to the pile?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And some BS can hide behind playing the victim and not taking responsibility for their part in the problems of M.<hr /></blockquote>This is true.

But an affair is still a non-solution and an affair is without integrity ... is never a way of dealing with the actual problem.... the marriage..

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It takes two people to be happy and in love in a marriage.<hr /></blockquote>Yes.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And sometimes the BS never asks forgiveness for the pain and suffering that they have caused.<hr /></blockquote>Especially if the spouse runs away to fantasy-land of an extra-marital affair instead of standing her ground and solving the marriage problem or leaving the marriage.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I have many people who support and understand why I would want to end my marriage. They all know H and how he can be.<hr /></blockquote>This does not matter once YOU have decided to behave without integrity yourself !!

Once you are in an affair, you have lost yourself, your center, your core.

Happy people don't have affairs. Neither do spiritually healthy people.

The affair makes you sicker. Not healthier.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Its easy to jump on the WS and start name calling, but did you ever think they might have been in pain for a long time too?<hr /></blockquote>An affair is not medicine for pain.An affair is poison .... spiritual poison.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finding attraction to someone who meets your needs is very easy to do.<hr /></blockquote>Yes .. it takes intact boundaries and a functioning moral code to protect ourselves from damaging ourselves by having an affair.

Attraction is easy. Faithfulness is a challenge.

The affair damages THE AFFAIREE the most! It is a blow to someone's spiritual wellness to sneak around and have a secret life the family is unaware of.

Being a sneaky adulterous liar is robbing one's self of their best self.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I'm not defending the WS actions, I'm just saying many BS seem to love to jump on them as the problem.<hr /></blockquote>The WS IS the problem ---> while the affair continues.

When the affair ends ---> the marriage is the problem.

There is no way to say the one having the affair is doing whatever is necessary to help the marriage. No way.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />An A is a symptom of a long standing problem in the M. They even say that in the book.<hr /></blockquote>A symptom but also a behavior ---> that is very very damaging and needs to be stopped.

Until you stop your affair 100% you have no moral high ground to stand on and say "I am trying to work on the marriage problems." Being actively in an affair and working on the marriage are incompatable.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think the MB is here to support people who are dealing with both ends of a marriage in trouble.<hr /></blockquote>Yes.

"Stop your affair." <--- That's saying something VERY supportive!

"You will be in a better position if you stop the affair." <--- That's saying something very supportive.

"An affair kills your spiritual center." <--- That's saying something supportive.

"Being a liar and a cheat cannot be a good thing for you." <--- That's saying something supportive.

"An affair is a dishonest response to a real life problem." <--- That's saying something supportive.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />People have feelings and they sometimes overtake you.<hr /></blockquote>People also have values, and morals, and decency, and ethics to hold ourselves back when feeling threaten to overtake us.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />And some marriages were dead before the A started.<hr /></blockquote>And if that is the case, the affair then killed the person's values and morals as well. Sound good to you? A dead marriage ~and~ ruined values.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It's great that everyone is doing well on this thread with NC. It certainly isn't an easy thing. But that's only step 1. The rest has to come from BS and WS together. I hope everyone can accomplish what needs to be done to work for a stronger marriage.<hr /></blockquote>It's all about being responsible for your own choices.

If I choose to lie to my husband, and to cheat on him, it is because it was something I decided to do. If I choose to de-value my own spiritual, moral, ethical core .... then the responsibility is mine. Not my husbands ... no matter what he treated me like ...

If you want to be a kick-[censored] empowered woman, walk in the truth, accept responsibility for you decisions with no excuses... no one makes us do wrong things but ourselves. You can have an authentic life only when you speak the truth , and behave in ways that honor yourself.

Pep

[ March 15, 2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]

okay--I think you missed my point. I was NOT justifying A's. I was merely saying that calling WS's names on MB does not help and support them in ending their affairs.

Also most people don't go out and decide to have an affairs. The can decide to end them and save their marriage, which is what people are doing here, correct?

Eh whatever-Im out.

My hub has posted the whole story if you want to read his post. However I have ended the EA. It's under this topic.

My Wife Hates Me...Help!

You're right. Both spouses are responsible for making a marriage work...one cannot do it alone. You know where I came from - I had an A and so who am I to judge anyone? I believe you when you say your M had problems.

I just hope the only message you get from me is this: After an A is over and NC is in full effect, sorting out how you really feel about a M takes a lot of time.

Your EA ended really just a few days ago, and you're probably angry and upset and going through withdrawls. During these next few weeks, the H usually looks like the bad guy. It's just really too soon to objectively make conclusions now though.

I sensed from Bassist's post that he feels you're angry with him. Let the NC do it's work for awhile though and hang in there. If you get through the withdrawls, the anger and bitterness dies down. It gets better if you give it a chance. I feel a whole lot different about my M here in March than I did in January. I wouldn't have believed it until I experienced that change myself.
GS

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by win bin:
I was merely saying that calling WS's names on MB does not help and support them in ending their affairs.<hr /></blockquote>I know. I think you are refering to the SSOM thread, aren't you? That guy was probably a troll, looking to stir up controversy. He was not sincerely seeking help for his own marriage, like you are .... a huge distinction.

I know that you are probably sensitive to name-calling (even of others) .... and the reason I think you are so sensitive is that your self-esteem has beeen damaged by your own actions.

An affair damages a good person's self esteem because a good person, when doing something he/she views as low ... has to work really hard to come to grips with himself/herself that the reasons they acted in such a low manner was somehow reasonable.

The problem with this sort of justification is that it stalls personal recovery. Statements such as: ---> "What I did wasn't so bad. I had good reasons. I did these bad things because I was treated so badly." ... ~~~screech~~~~ the brakes have just been applied to the personal recovery momentum.

No one here (except perhaps the most raw newbies, or the chronically neurotic angry) thinks anyone who is willing to have NC and put forward their best effort in their marriage is a bad person. THAT willing person is

brave
admirable
strong
good
worthy

YOU are such a person.

The OP (unmarried) who comes to MB to ask questions about how to woo a wife away from a her husband, is seriously on the wrong site! And his/her reception is luke warm at best, and downright icy after awhile. Why? because their posts do damage to the freshly wounded. There is no welcome mat here for such a poster, they are not helpful, they are in fact hurtful.

YOU, on the other hand, are also freshly wounded. Your struggle is a noble one.

Keep your head high. Love yourself enough to be honest and truthful ---> first with yourself ... then with others.

And don't forget this --->
Your feelings, while important, sometimes hijack your other important personal character traits. Feelings have no morality. There is no judging feelings. Feelings do not require an automatic action ... without first consulting the other parts of yourself ... to see if acting on the feeling is actually in your best long-term interest. See if acting on the feeling alligns with your moral compass.

You ARE respected for your most excellent efforts so far! I (MB) value you so much.

Take care.

Pep

I've got to go along with Pep on that last post, Win. I haven't seen anyone here judging you, or any of the other WS's, especially those that have taken a stand to work on their marriage.

I don't know you, and don't hold a single thing against you. You made a mistake. That was it. And in truth, this mistake was big enough that it's going to take both you and your husband a long time to recover from...again, that's not an attack..it's truth. But, it still doesn't make you a bad person.

I accept my part in the problems in my marriage. My wife does too...now. She didn't prior to her affair. I recognize my part in how things were in our relationship, and have actively worked to make the changes that we BOTH needed. BUT...I did NOT cause her to have the EA. That was HER choice...and even SHE admits that now. She didn't when she was where you are at in the healing process. Trust me...for at least two months after the affair was exposed, it was ALL my fault. It was my fault that it happened, my fault that it failed, my fault that she was unhappy that she stayed.

You WILL heal from this, with enough work on both you and your husband's parts. And you'll find that your marriage can be better than it had been in years.

But one of the first steps in recovering from ANYTHING is to recognize your own mistakes and role in the situation.

Hang in there friend...it will get better if you both work for it.

Well. It's a scary place where Win & I & others are. Trying to transition between withdrawal and trying to focus on our M & H at the same time. It seems overwhelming to see the reality of dealing with forgetting EA & also facing the work ahead with H. I can't speak for Win, but I am scared and apprehensive about how much work needs to be done at home. I am encouraged by Suzet, Gentlsoul, & Owl, who are successfully putting their marriages back together, but maybe their M's had less to repair? It is hard to imagine (TODAY) that I can feel "in love" with my H again, even though we're being told that it can happen. Maybe that's what Win is thinking, too.

Pep, I really appreciate your last post filled with encouragement.

Cards...

We are 9 years recovered ... and we are sooooo happy. Our kids are happy.

Our M was as screwed up as many others here.

It can be done.

Pep

Cards-

I can't vouch for my marriage vs. others, but my wife and I have been married 17+ years now. And we have had many good years to look back on to reassure us of how good things can be.

But don't sell yourself or your marriage short either. Recognize that it IS hard to work through what you are right now. But also know that VERY often, those feelings do return, even when the WS doesn't think that they will. My wife used the standard "I love you, but I'm not IN LOVE with you." on me when the affair came out. When I mentioned that to someone, she pointed out that she's heard that many times, and her take on it was this..."The difference between love and being in love boils down to how much effort you put into it.".

I had to think about that for a while. But it's true...if you had spent that same amount of time talking with your husband, about the same topics, and sharing your feelings with him the same way you did with your OM, you'd find yourself as "in love" with him as you were with your OM. I know that this was exactly the case with my wife and I after her affair. We started taking some LONG walks in the evening...this was before she'd decided that our marriage was repairable mind you. These talks were BLUNT, they were OPEN, they were HONEST. Sometimes, they hurt us both, because we were talking about what happened, what lead to it, and what we were dealing with. But guess what...those talks were the very key that let us re-build. That was how we managed to re-connect. It was a lot of effort...a lot of "work".

Right now, you're not sure if you want to put that much effort into is my guess. That's because you're not sure that you want to let go of what you and the OM shared. (and it's really hard to admit to yourself that what the two of you shared was NOT unique, was NOT something special...and deep down you may be afraid that you'll find that out). But if you can stick it out through the withdrawl, you'll find that things aren't nearly as black as you believed during the affair. You'll see that your husband wasn't nearly as bad as you had remembered him to be...and that he's STILL there for you, after all that he's been through.

Now, I'm guessing...again, I've never met you or your husband. Your marriage may really have been something horrific, I don't know. But I can tell you what I've seen in my life, and what I've seen on other boards with other people. And what I've seen with friends and others around me. And what I've described is more often the case than not.

Think about this...your OM didn't REALLY know you. Not anywhere near as well as your husband does. Online affairs especially allow you to only show the parts of you that you want to share, and you can "hide" those parts of you that you want. Your husband has seen ALL of you. He's seen you happy, down, moody, giddy. He's held your hand through the tough times, and hugged you tight during the good times. He's seen all the bad things about you, but HE STILL LOVES YOU!! Take comfort in that.

Hang in there. And I will bet that a year from now you'll sound just like me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi cards,

â€œmaybe their M's had less to repair?â€

I canâ€™t imagine that any M with betrayal in it has less to repair than any other, but I think comparing how terrible our Mâ€™s were before an A isnâ€™t constructive.

â€œI am scared and apprehensive about how much work needs to be done at homeâ€

Thatâ€™s extremely understandable, and good that you realize how hard itâ€™s going to be, for both you and your H. Repairing an M and restoring love is very, very, very, hard. Recovery definitely ainâ€™t for sissies. LOL.

There will be days when recovery just doesnâ€™t seem possible, or even desirable sometimes. (There were times when my H and I wondered if it would have been easier or healthier to have gotten D.) If youâ€™re committed to the process, however, keep coming here, asking questions or venting, whatever you need to do to get suggestions and support for continuing the work.

God bless,

Rose

________________________________________________
Quote from Pep:
Your feelings, while important, sometimes hijack your other important personal character traits. Feelings have no morality. There is no judging feelings. Feelings do not require an automatic action ... without first consulting the other parts of yourself ... to see if acting on the feeling is actually in your best long-term interest. See if acting on the feeling alligns with your moral compass.
________________________________________________

I like that quote a whole lot. I'm going to put that one next to my computer here. Thank you Pep!

To everyone else: Hi! Week 10 here and NC still in effect. Have had some very interesting thoughts come together this past couple of days about the A and the OM. Not so mysterious, wonderful and soulful as I felt back then. Hmmmm, very interesting indeed. Hey, and guess what, the OM wasn't perfect! haha, knew that, but I'm starting to remember more and more not-so-nice things about Mr. Wonderful.

Cards: My marriage needs a lot of work too. It was pretty broken before the A, and boy is it hurting now, although things are really looking up. It was broken because I didn't invest any energy in it and avoided all conflict so nothing was even spoken as being wrong. I'll be spending the next two years investing in this relationship to see what comes out. I know there are a lot of reasons I've spent the last 23 years with him. Two small children are counting on me, who deserve the chance to keep our family together. I have all the time in the world for that cause.

Owl: I am really taking a lot of heart in your posts. Thank you so much. It is great to hear about M recovery, and I did want to thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Time and patience - hang in there Cards and Win. Just try and remember it hasn't been the long since NC for you (although I know it seems like an eternity). Your feelings take awhile to settle into something your mind can fully evaluate.
GS

Trying to transition between withdrawal and trying to focus on our M & H at the same time. It seems overwhelming to see the reality of dealing with forgetting EA & also facing the work ahead with H.

Cards, I understand what you wrote so well! We are in this stage where we really want to move past this but our minds (and hearts) keep thinking back to the EA! It can be very overwhelming, but we must push forward! Sometimes I wish I could just go away for a few months just to work on my withdrawal on my own so it wouldn't be so overwhelming with trying to work on M at the same time! But it is not possible. Little by little you will see all that your H is to you!

[ March 16, 2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: 2BNormal ]

Everyone,
Thanks for all your posts, Cards, sorry to highjack your thread! I guess I'm just shocked at how painful this all is. And I think that's why all these years I avoided dealing with our M situations. Now after EA I just have to. It's like going from something that makes you so happy back to an empty feeling, its very hard.

I know my H is going to read this post, because he wants to find out what I am feeling, but I don't want to hurt him more either. (sorry babe). I guess I'm just afraid I don't know if it will work out. But even before EA, long before, I was wondering why I was still in the M. I was wondering why I wanted to buy another house with this person if I don't see myself with him forever? But I wasn't sure how to shake him into dealing with my issues without saying "oh you'll live" (sorry babe). I guess I inadvertantly found a way.

Now we HAVE to deal with all those issues. I think soon I'll be ready to. But it's very overwhelming. I know for years hes had self esteem and depression issues (sorry babe) that he has never dealt with.

I do have to say that some of my EA DID bring H and I closer together, hard to understand unless you know our situation, but its true, and he admits it. It was just too destructive unless our M was a strong one.

I just got to take things one day at a time. Get over the withdrawl, and he needs to give me space to do that. And then we can see where to go from there.

-win

Sorry everyone, didn't mean to compare bad M's! Obviously something isn't right if there are A's, but I couldn't help but wonder if those people that are falling back in love, were actually "in love" not long before the A's. My H & I have been "drifting" through marriage since having kids. Too much revolving around them, "us" getting lost and disconnected from each other. It's been years since we've been really happy together. No horrible fighting or anything, just not working to make each other happy. OWL, like you said, I can see that since this has happened the talks that we've had have helped us to start that re-connecting. Just talking about our feelings as much as we've done lately is about 1000% improvement to what it was!

Gentlsoul, just today a made a list of the things I DIDN'T like about the EA. I came up with 12 things without thinking very hard at all. As I reread the list and pondered about some things OM said that didn't jive with his actions, it gave me cause to realize that I DON'T really know him. As I think back, one thing that really bothered me is that he point-blank denied the EA to his W. Not that I've been totally forthcoming to my H with all the details, but I didn't deny the EA to him. So, that he could blatantly lie to her makes me wonder.....duh, right? I really don't WANT to feel hatred or anger toward him, but somehow it's helping me to see that his motives were probably selfish. I guess we were "using" each other in a way, to meet our EN's.

Win, that's cool that your H cares enough to get on here and post. My H read some of my post, but didn't want to read everything. It may take him some time to come to grips with everything. I think his feelings about the EA will trickle out little by little.

Thanks all!

Cards....

Make a list of things you really like about yourself.

It's gonna be an awesome list!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

It's hard to move forward when all you see is pain and emptiness.

Win-

Something that I'd like to suggest you try to do to help yourself and your husband. Again, I mean what I say pleasantly, and I am NOT judging you, so please do not take it that way.

For now, for the next few weeks, stop thinking about the past with your H. During the A, and after, you'll find that the ONLY things you can see about him are the negatives, and those are going to seem HUGE, like you're looking through a magnifying glass. That's because the A distorts your view. I know it's hard for you to believe right now, but it's true. It happened to my wife, big time. She repeatedly told EVERYONE..."I haven't been happy in my marriage in YEARS!". Both counselors we'd seen, all her family, mine, etc... And whenever I asked, tell me WHEN it started, she couldn't. At our counseling session this past Friday, I mentioned this to her and our MC. And she looked me dead in the eye and said, "You're right...it seemed a lot worse than what it really was. I was only unhappy the last nine months before the affair, since I'd started staying home".

It's called "re-writing history". And it's NOT something that you're doing deliberately. It's a mental and emotional defense mechanisim. It's your mind and heart trying to justify the affair.

Now I am NOT saying that all was perfect in your marriage prior to the A. It wasn't in mine. But, I am saying that you need to try to concentrate on NOW, and not the past. Do work with your husband to find areas that both of you can improve in, but wait a few more weeks before you try looking back and really judging whether or not your marriage is worth saving.

I really do think that all of you going through this are doing awesome. I've seen a lot of friends lose their marriages because one or the other couldn't accept responsibility for their actions and begin working to fix the problems. Keep it up friends, hang in there....things WILL get better down the line.

Thanks owl,
I remember specifically being unhappy before we bought our new house (1 1/2 yrs ago), and before I met OM, (1 yr ago) because I was wondering if it was a bad idea if I was unhappy. But I didn't know what to do about it. It seemed H didn't recognize that I was unhappy or would discount my feelings.

I remember exactly a year ago watching tv thinking I'm bored and lonely and that is when I went to the PC and began chatting. And a big blow was for my b'day when he didn't get me anything and we got in a big fight on vacation, and I was ready to leave.

Of couse I can't blame H for everything. I should have stomped my feet, moved out or tried to make him see that things were not working out. But I realized the other day that I watched my mom sit in front of the tv lonely for 20 years (my dad being a muscian would be out till 2am many nights) so perhaps I discounted my needs.

I know right now I'm in withdrawl, so I'm not expecting too much from my feelings, though I know H wants me to wake up and come around NOW! I can only deal with one thing at a time.

My head is just swimming today. Since I think I'm mostly back to reality, the complexity of all this has come crashing in on me. Being a "thinker" and an "analyzer" anyway, my head feels like it's going to explode. I'm analyzing myself, my H, my OM, my M all at the same time! What stage am I in? I have all these books going trying to figure everything out! Am I still in withdrawal? Fog? Help, please. If I'm still thinking of OM am I still in withdrawal? Am I out of the fog since I realize I was in a fantasy? Maybe it doesn't matter that I label it.

My H drew me a bath last night (just for me alone) with candles and music. I asked him to stay and talk with me. We talked about a lot of things-his stresses, too. Maybe that's why I'm feeling so overwhelmed. I so appreciate his forgiveness and his efforts. But now I see all the underlying issues that we have never addressed. I guess one step at a time.

Cards--
Sounds like you and H are doing well thou.
I think the fog takes longer than we think it will. It can't just be wrapped up in a few days. I know I"m still struggling too, so hang in there.

-win

Cards,
I just read your post tonight and wish I saw it earlier today. You are so like me...I'm a thinker/analyzer too. There were days I felt my head was going to explode from all my analysis of the swampy bog I was in. All I can say is:

Just "be" for awhile. Bide your time and let things quiet down again.

Your body and mind are processing all the trauma you have been through. Your subconscience is trying to perhaps sort out the meaning and placement of all that has happened. It takes time. I don't know what you call it...fog, withdrawls, whatever it is called doesn't matter. Just "be" for awhile. You have time, right?

Gradually, things will click. I almost wrote to you all on this thread this morning and now I'm sorry I didn't. I was just going to say that coming to end of week 10 now of NC and things have "clicked" for me. I can think of OM now and not cringe in internal pain. It isn't so painful a memory now. He doesn't seem all that special now, and my H is seeming WAY more important.

Just "be" for awhile Cards. When your mind has sorted it all out, you will feel the click like I did. Hang in there.
GS

Win bin,

Please note I left you a message on my withdrawal thread yesterday. I will bump the thread for you this morning. (Just in case you haven't seen it) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suzet

Thanks Gentlsoul-
The confusion of yesterday apparently continued into the night for me. Woke up a couple times during the night, the sweating, not restful sleep. So today I feel "foggy" again. Am I physically withdrawing still or again? I haven't experienced this for a couple weeks at least. My sleep had been getting better & better. I hope I'm not going backwards!!!!

I'm still thinking of OM, but the urges to contact have diminished greatly. Maybe I need a break from the books and the postings? I need to ready our family for vacation in 2 weeks, but it seems like just a chore. I know that getting away will ultimately be good for me, but today I am really not looking forward to it. I HATE feeling this way. Thanks

Hi Cards,

I think what you may be experiencing is quite normal. I've had a bad few days as well. My H doesn't want to talk about the OM (or any of it) at all anymore, so I feel as if I have to push it all inside! I don't have problems with sleeping, but my mind is all over the place right now. I've read so much and thought about so much as well and yes it is very overwhelming! Yesterday I was crying about the OM and really wanting to talk to him. Sometimes it's hard just to push forward with real life! I think I won't be posting as much for now to try to sort through things. Hang in there and plan your family vacation! It could be a good thing to have something different to focus on.

I know where both you guys are. I feel the same way. I'm sooo depressed about never talking to OM again. I will very much miss his friendship, not even just the relationship. My H doesn't seem to understand this. I just need time. It's devestating for me. He was a good friend. And gave me lots of cool music. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

H seems to think my depression is all about him. I'm just not ready to think about the M. I don't know if it can be saved. I wasn't sure I was happy before I met OM, but I didnt want to face it and now I have to. I just feel a lot of pain and pressure. So I guess healing is a long process. All I can say is I'm trying.

-win

Im like you in same insane online affair.

I dont know if one of you have had sex with OM.
I did it. I feel sick about myself for did that.

My case is little different I was trying to quit this A. I couldnt do it.

I always look for him, he is like a drug for me )you can read my post "Avoiding an internet affair, and other that I cant remember like "help for stop thinking in OM"

He has been my confident, everything started slowly, we were just friends, we have a lot things in common.

But I know this is bad, he is married too.

My H doesnt know anything. Im so coubard to tell him.

(Im mexican, I dont write english as good as I wish)

Well, I could stop contact with OM for some days, and yesterday I looked for him AGAIN!!!

His wife is pregnant, I have a 2 years old daughter, and I feel Im the worst mother in planet. This behaviour is not a good example.

I dont know what to do, (no I have another post, OM, OW asking for a suggestion)

OM is interested in my more for have "sex" by web cam than for chat.

I was planning to take a flight and met him. He lives in another country, and thanks to this site I didnt do it. THANKS GOD!!

Im desperated.

<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ladies,
I'll keep saying this in case it helps: It DOES get better with time. If I didn't experience it myself, I wouldn't believe it. I was where you are...I was miserable, obsessing about OM, not sleeping, not eating and seriously hurting. Fought NC tooth and nail. I won because I didn't ACT on the feelings. The only way to get through it is No Contact. Then, the feelings fade and you can feel better about yourselves and your marriages.

Cards - yes, it's normal. I'd feel good for awhile then feel like I took a step back. I'd wake up sweating and disturbed. Waves of unpleasantness would hit me. Two steps up and one step back. When I felt bad, I'd redirect thoughts and put the books away. Remember when I stepped away from here for a couple of days? Keep focusing on the vacation and your children. It's hard I know, but it speeds your progress.

Hang in there and know any contact takes you back in a huge way. OK? I swear - it gets better! The OM will seem not so special in a couple of months, in fact, you'll start to realize his faults too. That took until week 10 for me, but everyone is different.

Good thoughts your way!
GS

Thanks Gentlsoul for your posts. Glad to know I'm "normal". I was OK on the weekend, but now, here again I find myself in thoughts of OM. I'm still linking certain days, times of the day, and places w/ OM. I'm realizing that I don't think of him as much, then it makes me sad. Sort of seems like another stage. First acknowledging it's over & fighting the loss of that; now fighting the loss of the memories. When I think about how much time has passed since we were actively in the EA (6 wks) it makes me sad. It's like I don't want to forget those wonderful feelings and memories of both of us wanting each other. It's hard to let go of the fact that someone was wanting ME, but no longer does (or can't).(sigh) WITHDRAWAL!!!

Hope you are all doing OK, Mary, Winbin, 2bnormal, luv2bad, curly, & anyone else reading here. Sharing our stories has been so helpful.

Gentlsoul, how did you NOT go back and read any of your letters, emails, etc from OM? I'm having a hard time with that.

cardsonly,

I UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY. It's sooo hard to give up the thought of this and of the OM wanting you and the feelings associated with that! It is a daily struggle for me to make my mind think of something else! We have to come to the realization even though we have these feelings and enjoy the "feelings", that it was a fantasy.

One of the last conversations I had with the OM was that he struggles as well, but that he must admit that following the Lord is the only path for both of us. I keep thinking of that and know that it's true, but that both the OM and I HAVE to ADMIT that. I hope this helps you in some way as well.

Just thought I would reply about your emails and IM conversations. It is hard not to look at them I'm sure. I still have a few things I look at but as time goes by it is becoming less frequent. Does your H know you still have these? My H made me delete all of my emails when he found out, so there is not much for me to look at. That really hurt at the time, but maybe I'm glad now for that in that I can't struggle with deleting them since they are gone! Maybe think about deleting them a little at a time?

[ March 21, 2005, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: 2BNormal ]

Cards-

Something I can kind of relate to...

My wife was smart enough to delete any emails that she got from her OM, because she knew that she'd get caught eventually. Same thing with voicemail from him. Matter of fact, it was NOT deleting them after he'd resumed that final contact with her was how I caught that he'd contacted her again!

But, here's how I can relate, in an offhanded sort of way. I have a copy of their last 5 days of IMs. It's how I got my "final proof" of what was going on. Towards the end, I came home a little early, and found that she was trying like crazy to close an IM window from him so that I couldn't see it (she had it minimized, and knew it would go to normal size as it closed). She got it closed so I didn't see the contents, but that was the final straw for me. The next morning, I logged on her computer before I went to work, hacked her IM account (had a decent guess at her passwords), and turned logging on. They'd been in the habit of checking that, but since I'd not "caught on" in the nearly two months, they got careless. And over the next five days when I recorded their IM's, that was when they got serious about trying to meet and "see if it was real in person". I wasn't able to check the logs until one of the next work days (my wife would stay in bed until I left, then rush downstairs to IM her OM). It was that morning (May 11) that I read the log, and was so crushed beyond belief.

Here's my point. I hada copy of the log for a long time. And about once a month or so, I would still find myself compelled to go back through it again, to find some reason why it happened. It wasn't until I deleted it that I could finally quit doing that.

Cards (and others), please, for your own piece of mind, delete those emails, ecards, and messages. Keeping them is a way of going back to what you had, and that is both tearing to your own heart, and still a way of holding on to your OM. You're still keeping that little bit alive...and as long as you're doing that, you're keeping that little bit held back from repairing your marriage. You're still betraying your spouse in that little bit of your heart.

I strongly suggest that you delete whatever email, IM screename, game names (like your profile on Pogo if that is where you played cards with your OM, Cards), and all of that so that it makes it that much harder for your OM to slip up and contact you. And it's a great way to reassure your husband...as long as you remain honest and give him access to whatever new accounts you create.

It does get easier friends. It really does. It takes time, and hard work (like what I'm suggesting) to help get through it, but it can and will happen if you put forth the effort. Hang in there...do what you have to now to make things right. It WILL be worth it.

Yes, you are right, OWL. I am aware that every one of those "little" reminders is another little "fix" for me, keeping a piece of him alive. And I know that sometimes I am doing it to myself on purpose, instead of making contact I suppose. I need to take the next step and delete anything remaining on my pc. I have a few saved "drafts" of e-mails I never sent. He's still on IM, but I don't sign on to that anymore, and if I do I have him hidden. His "name" is still on my game site and I see that. After H discovered IM conversations I saved them to floppy & deleted them off pc. So what I have is floppys, and 1 conversation printed on hard copy. I have these discs and papers hidden away, but accessible to me. I KNOW the next thing I have to do, is get rid of all of it, if for no other reason than if something would happen to me it would be horrific for others to find these things!

I feel I've come a long way in the 3 wks since I started this thread, but WOW, what a process. If only I had known how much energy spent & pain would be caused by my "harmless friendship"!!!

Cards,

Yes it's hard to let go of those things that we are hanging on to. Sometimes I think about if I were to go back into the full swing of the EA, how would I feel? Horrible! Sure the feelings and excitement would come back, but the deception and the lies we kept will make me feel horrible and awful! It's not worth it. I was living in sin and I do not want to go back to that as much as I miss the OM!

I found this about FOG on this site. I believe it aptly describes what happened to me:

The FOG is basically a catch-all phrase to define behavior of a person who suddenly stops living and acting like they did the day before and begins a secret, second life...with the central focus of the secret second life being an unknown or mostly invisible other person who is not the father of their kids, the mother of their kids, or their husband or wife. Suddenly the things that made life good aren't good enough anymore. You could have all the material possessions, a great spouse, and a contented life but something snaps...JUST SNAPS...and then they decide that they need more out of life and MORE comes in the form of somebody different. Somebody unusual. Life is shaken up and stirred with the arrival of this new person. The hormonal "in love" feeling is generated everytime this new person is near, thus confusing the former family man or mom that this person is "something special" and "different" and their "soulmate".

That "feeling" is simply a hormonal response that happens in the early stages of a relationship. After years of marriage, even in a good marriage, that hormone wanes...and it's normal. But when this "feeling" is triggered again...how the person responds to it is key. Honestly, I think most married people will feel that "feeling" during some part of their marriage but the decision to ACT on it is critical.

Once it's acted on, then the physical response becomes more of an addiction then. It overrides normal patterns of behavior and thinking at that point. A person is literally powerless until withdrawing from the object.

Cards-

Let me help you then friend. Please, post a message here today when you've deleted all of them. And be honest. You'll cry while you do it, but you have no idea how good your going to feel once you have done it. I mean that...really. Post here today, and tell me what you're feeling after you have deleted EVERYTHING. Same goes for changing your gamesite name, and your IM account.

You dont know it yet, but you're going to feel so relieved at having taken this step (if you do it honestly and completely) that you're going to be amazed and wonder why you didn't do it sooner!

Yes, 2BNormal, I refer to my list of "Things I Hated about My EA" fairly often. I added one just yesterday after going to church. Finally, I'm able to sit in church and feel repentant about what I did. For those months during the EA & after, I was so conflicted and uncomfortable I could hardly attend (I guess that's a good thing that I was conflicted!). On my list is also the feelings of deception & guilt. I have to remember how awful that felt, and also I felt withdrawal from day to day until my next contact. So all of those things just made me a mess for most of that time!

Sounds like you're doing well, 2BNormal!!

OWL, my friend & my H's friend!!

I cannot promise this for today, but I will work on preparing my mind to do this ASAP, knowing that this IS an important next step. Thank you for pointing that out to me and giving me a "shove" in that direction.

Cards,

I have been following your posts and I do hope you take the advice that has been offered. I would ask you one thing. Win's H has posted that he is done, and will file for divorce. Do you think losing your H will hurt you more than losing someone that "gave you cool music"?

You have not really factored in the reality that you may lose a long time marriage and destroy your family. Please rid yourself of the reminders you have of the OM.

God Bless,

JL

Cards,

Two thoughts for you...

The first is this...if not now, then when? The problem is pretty simple. You're never really going to be "ready" to do this...it's hard. It's an act of "faith"...you just have to do it knowing its the right thing. The longer you let this go on, the more you're going to prolong your agony...and the longer it's going to take for you AND your husband to recover.

The second is this...can you pray about this, and seek the REAL source of strength and faith and inspiration? Pray, and ask God what He wills to be done, here and now. Ask Him what He would have you do...and then do that. You may not have the Strength to do this, but you know that He does, and He gladly shares His strength.

Maybe you can go to your husband, and you BOTH can delete the files, destroy the disks, change the passwords together. Make this an act to build your marriage on...and an act of cleansing for you. Sister, I know it's hard, but I also know where you're coming from. And I really do just mean to help. Pray about it, and see what your answer is.

Darn these double posts!

[ March 21, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Owl ]

Hello everyone,
Win's H has not filed for divorce yet. We are still hanging in there. I still have a great deal of pain and withdrawl I'm going through. Everyday it gets a bit easier I guess. But I'm left just with a big empty hole.

Cards, I think in time you will be able to delete all the reminders of your OM. Don't rush yourself, it might just make the withdrawl worse.

Cards,

I am not doing totally well. The weekend was particularly tough and I am still fighting my mind from drifting to the OM!

My H was looking at my current cell phone bill this weekend and saw a call I made to the state that the OM lives. This threw him into panic mode and made him feel horrible as he searched to find out who I called. (I was not home at the time). Well, I had called my brother who lives in the same state as the OM (and not far from him). But, I know my H felt horrible as he was seeking to find out! I know I have put him through so much and he doesn't deserve it! He has always been so faithful to me!

I am also struggling with my H not wanting or feeling like he wants to meet my EN's. He is still holding a lot of resentment for what I did. This is where my mind wants to go back to the OM! But, I have to keep seeking and trusting in God for my marriage!

I do understand how you felt about being in church when the EA was going on. I have dealt with that for over a year and a half and am now feeling better about that as I seek God. I also struggle with seeing friends that don't know the "real" me and what I did! I feel like such a horrible person and if they "only knew". We not only deceived our H's but also our friends and anyone that knows us if you really think about it.

You have received such good advice on here about those emails and IM conversations. Keep seeking and trusting in God. He will be your strength in this!

[ March 21, 2005, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: 2BNormal ]

Win-

Sorry friend...I don't agree. You don't quit drinking or drugs by slowly backing off...even cigarettes really should be quit "cold turkey". Yes, it could make the short term withdrawl harder, but it also makes it shorter, and the odds of a relapse much less.

I agree with the other comment I saw on this thread...think about what you are risking by keeping this stuff, and by keeping this from your husband! You are STILL risking your marriage, your family, everything by continuing the deception. And this prolongs the withdrawl, it does nothing to truly help you get past the EA.

Your choice friend....I've made my suggestions.

[ March 21, 2005, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Owl ]

Yup, this H has not filed for divorce yet. It was a very difficult weekend, and it hurts to see my wife in so much pain. I cried a lot this weekend, and more this morning...some for her, and some for me just out of pure loneliness. But I think I'm doing better at giving her some space. I hope I am.

Also, thank you Cards for that post about Fog. That's a pretty accurate description of what it's like, from where I stand. I just hope my W can keep up this NC, which she is about a week into; maybe withdrawal will ease some day and we can start the work our R desperately needs.

[ March 21, 2005, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: bassistist ]

FL, I do intend to take the advice and destroy my reminders. There is no possibility of the EA starting back up, and I have no intention of losing my 18 yr marriage & H. It is over and my H knows this. OM has not contacted me in almost 6 weeks, and I have no reason to believe he ever will again. So, the struggle is within myself to put the thoughts at rest and completely let go.

OWL, you asked if not today, then when? Honestly, I have not given this a lot of thought before right now. I knew in the back of my mind that it's something I need to do, but had not committed myself to it yet. I felt as though I were fighting the battle of my life with NC! The least of my concerns were some notes & discs.

I totally agree that I need to destroy this stuff, and I feel that this is the next battle to fight. But it's a process, too, whereby I have to have resolve in my mind. I have gotten so much stronger, and I truly believe that I will be able to do this, too. I have never even read the conversations since I saved them over 2 months ago! I am beginning to look forward to our vacation and I know that a change a scenery and a break from PC's will be a wonderful thing. I hope it will be a turning point for me and everything will click (like it did for Gentlsoul).

I have prayed for strength over & over during this time. I WILL pray for strength over this issue. I know what His will is. I believe He was watching over me & my M and interrupted this EA so as to not cause further harm. I really believe that.

Thank you for your encouragement, FL & OWL.

Win, hadn't read your H post, but glad no one has filed. I am so glad you're feeling better today.

2B, I hear you. Just when you think you've moved past something else comes up. For me this weekend it was paying the charge bill. I was going through the charges and I remember specifically the days I shopped here & there, and I remember making phone calls in those parking lots, or conversations we had later that day. Amazing. Fortunately, that was January and by next bill there shouldn't be any more of those reminders.

We have the opposite with our H's. Yours was involved with your "goodbye" process but not working on the EN's. Mine is distancing himself from the fact that is was a "real" EA, but is trying to meet my needs. This is where I really need the strength, OWL, because it is all left to me and not pushed by my H (with regards to ridding myself of the reminders).

2B, I'm sure OWL can speak to how your H is feeling about wanting to meet your needs. He is probably angry & hurt & bruised. Maybe when both parties work through this early time period both can start meeting each others EN'S at the same time?

Cards,

My H did really try to work on my EN's for awhile. He really did! But then he goes back to his resentment sometimes and doesn't want to. Things are progressing though and it will be little steps at a time.

Owl, if you have any thoughts to share from the BS's point of view with EN's...please share!

Cards, the triggers and memories you are getting will fade with time. I have those thoughts as well. Dumb ones sometimes! Like this weekend I took my dd and her friend shopping and I can remember doing that before (during the EA) and the OM asking me about the shopping trip! Why in the world would I think of that?????

[ March 21, 2005, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: 2BNormal ]

Hmmm....

Well, I'm not sure what to say about someone who's not willing to meet their spouse's emotional needs. In my case, I could step back and see what needs weren't being fulfilled, and my wife was pretty good about vocalizing them (frequently at the top of her lungs when we were in counseling).

My thoughts would be to have a VERY CLEAR, DIRECT conversation with him. Tell him that you admit the EA was your fault. Tell him that what lead up to it was your needs not being met, and identify those needs clearly to him. If he starts whining, tell him again that the EA was your choice...your responsibility, your mistake. BUT...for the marriage to be repaired/made better, that BOTH of you need to work on some things. Don't make it a threat, but make him see the connection.

And, at the same time, ask him what HE needs from you now. If he says nothing, then tell him that you know better than that. Tell him that you know that what happened damaged his trust, and his belief that what you shared was something special. Tell him that you are commited to HIM, that you are commited to meeting HIS need of re-building that trust, that you want to show him how special YOU feel this relationship is. Ask him what else he needs after that.

The trick is...TALK with him. Let him know that lack of communication was what got you two to this point, and that the only way to get past it is by starting with fixing THAT problem first.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Owl, I have been talking alot to my H about needs and what his needs are as well. As I said earlier, he has tried. He just gets into these moments where he feels he has this big resentment for what I did. I guess more talks are needed for sure!

Well, another thought is to get him to read as much as he can on WHY affairs happen. I resented my wife quite a bit too...it often takes TIME to truly forgive something of this magnitude...and to be honest, he hasn't yet.

But, if he can understand more about WHY it happened, what lead up to it, what you both can do to prevent it from happening again, it'll become easier for him to deal with. I personally couldn't forgive my wife until it seemed like we WERE going to make it as a couple after it was all done...because I would NOT have forgiven her for choosing the OM and destroying our marriage.

Hang in there!

Hi guys - I've been following this thread but haven't posted on it in awhile as I started my own thread.

But I had to jump in on this subject of BS having a hard time meeting EN's. I 100% agree with Owl. Your BS needs to hear and know that you have taken resposibility for the A - and you are now committed to repairing the damage and dealing with the A head on - even thought it is extremely difficult.

2BNormal - I am probably in your H's shoes right now. I think I have been doing a good job with meeting the EN's he will let me meet up to this point but over the last few days my resentment has increased. I haven't yet heard those things from my H that owl talks about - and it is taking its toll on me. Of course my H is only 9 days with no contact but I'm not even 100% sure of that yet! He feels he has already done so many things I have asked of him that he is not yet ready to give more. I feel he has done very little to make me feel safe and I'm sure he feels he has done so much. So I will remain patient.

But if you want your H to be able to fill those EN's, listen to Owl - it will give him soooo much motivation!

I won't lie, I've not heard 100% of these things from my wife either, but I do know that these are the things that I WANT to hear!

Owl and luv2bd, thanks for the words. My H and I did read ALOT about why the EA happened. He understands why. What his resentment is that I CHOSE to have the EA even though my EN's were not met. I am sure I have not met all of his EN's at many times, but he CHOSE and still CHOOSES to be faithful to me. This will take time to work through.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 2BNormal:

Yes it's hard to let go of those things that we are hanging on to. Sometimes I think about if I were to go back into the full swing of the EA, how would I feel? Horrible! Sure the feelings and excitement would come back, but the deception and the lies we kept will make me feel horrible and awful! It's not worth it. I was living in sin and I do not want to go back to that as much as I miss the OM! <hr /></blockquote>Hi Everyone,
I love this quote from 2BNormal. That sums up how I feel, except that I don't miss OM anymore. I now think of him stabbing my H in the back with a knife, along with his own W too. Weird how my perspectives are changing dramatically, HERE AT THE START OF WEEK 11!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Cards, about the momentos. I'll tell you my situation, but first have to say if I were stronger I would be doing what Owl says. I couldn't get rid of the e-mails and the notes yet. I felt like I was still grieving - I know that hurts my H to hear it, but it is honesty. He knows about their existence and we talked about it in our M counseling. I'm not hiding anything. Our counselor told us that they are "transitional objects" to me. Kind of like when someone dies and you hang on to their clothes.

NOW BEFORE ANYONE 2x4's ME, hear me out. I realize this isn't a death of a person. But it is a death of a significant relationship to me.

I put the momentos away though. I haven't looked at them in seven weeks now, not even once. Don't want to. It's painful to think about looking at them and that's what prevents me from doing so. Pain to think of looking at them, pain to think about throwing them away forever.

I am going to throw them away though. Getting very close because I know for sure OM doesn't mean much to me anymore. I love my H and don't want to hurt him. So...the bonfire is coming.

I did NC dramatically and decisively. I blocked all communication. I just needed a little time to grieve and to sort through what this all meant. Nobody hit me though, OK? I did what I did for me and I don't owe anyone an explanation except my H, which I did and he said he was supportive. He is looking forward to the bonfire though.
GS

I feel like you, Gentlsoul, about the letters, etc. I believe this whole experience has been a life altering event. I know that it has changed me, how I see myself, and my H & M. I am still awed by my intense feelings and reactions to the relationship with the OM. I NEED to understand myself better. As women, I think some of us have this great need to summarize and write history. I need to analyze the whole picture of what happened so I can learn from it. Yes, I think there is a grieving process for a relationship that had so much impact.

I may go back and read those items to gain a better understanding of myself. And then again, I may not. I am not able to do that now, which is why they're tucked away. It would be much too painful to do it now.

OWL, believe me, what you said today I have given MUCH thought about. PLEASE don't think I just don't get it. I DO get it. Everything you say makes sense. I so much appreciate your help. I was taken aback and not prepared for hearing how important it is for me to get rid of the letters & conversations. I do see that it would be a huge step for me to take and it would move me forward. I do not feel I am being deceptive and dishonest with my H on this issue. I believe I can at least take the first steps and clear my pc of the names and lingering e-mail drafts. They are serving no purpose other than making me miserable if I see his name.

Cards, I was thinking about the emails and IM conversations that you want to rid of eventually. I know it's tough and I do understand the analyzing everything! I still have access to some emails (about 2 weeks worth) between me and the OM from when the EA started,when we changed from friendship to the EA. I have looked at them and tried to figure it all out and how we got to where we did and why I did what I did. I used them to get some understanding of this. I haven't looked at them in awhile though. Since I don't have all the emails anymore (my H made me delete them) I still hang on to a few pictures I have. It's extremely hard to hit that delete key to delete them! There is definately a grieving process that we are going through. It's the grieving of the end of a relationship even though the relationship was wrong. I honestly don't think that those that haven't walked on our side of this would really and truly understand what this feels like.

[ March 22, 2005, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: 2BNormal ]

Cards-

I do believe you understand, and I hold nothing against you friend. I would like to ask you one question....does your husband know about them? Realize that you very well may not see them as a betrayel of your husband...but if he's unaware of them, then in a small way they are. If he's aware of them, then continue to be open and honest with him...THAT is what he needs more than any other thing right now. If he's not, then think about how you could make him aware in a way that is positive to your marriage...don't wait and let him find them on his own, because for him, that will be another betrayel, another feeling that you're STILL not being honest with him. Just give that some thought, and see how that best applies to your own situation.

I have to admit, I'm having a rough time myself today. Sometimes they still hit me, with little or no warning. This morning my wife stayed in bed when I left (she normally gets up with me, but the kids went back to school today after a week of spring break, and she just wanted to sleep in). I went ahead and ran some cleanup on both of our computers, and when I did so I came across one of her old pogo accounts. She played Pogo a lot before she got involved in the MMORPG we both played that lead to her online EA. I looked at that old account, and glanced through the profiles of her "friends" from then...all guys. One guy's marital status was listed as "the wife's married...but I'm not!". I know that she had spent a lot of time playing cards with this guy online, and I knew at the time that she enjoyed his company...but seeing that AFTER what we'd gone through has kind of hit me hard this morning.

I KNOW she doesn't use that account anymore. I KNOW that nothing is going on at all anymore...but I still walked out of the house with that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I hate it when I can't control how I feel like that...when I know that its something in the past that is over and done with.

Sorry for the vent Cards, but just kinda had to vent someplace.

Hello.. I was directed here so offer sight and maybe gain some..
I too was invloved heavily in a long standing internet A.. that was very much a P and E one after many years.. almost 7 to be exact.. I am not proud of it.. i am in the early stages of recovery.. 2 weeks to be excat.. other times before I had tryed to break it off but contact crept back and voila inside of the dam mess again.. I see how i got there in some ways.. my marriage was falling apart in the inside.. my H never wanted to go to counselling and would tell me there was nothing wrong.. he went around doing what he felt he wanted most of the time and I was left with a 2 ans 4 year old.. dying inside..he had some substabce abuse problems.. which exacerbated things.. them came one night.. I was barely ever online.. we did not won a computer.. make a long story short.. I met someone who seemed to be living the same life as me.. same substabce abuse problems with s.. ect.. and there you have it..4 months of talk.. them physical.
I felt like i had to keep my end of the bargain up.. I should have ran.. but years later.. I was still in it.. feeling like shi----
I had tryed to make changes in My M at the same time Go figure and so improvments did come about afte ri had the 1 foot in 1 foot out of the marriage mentality..you dont mind making demands when u feel you might not be in it for long.. anyway.. not sure why excpet to say.. It feels good to be on the other side .. I do feel a bit of a loss.. not too much maybe because in my opinion the A had run its course..and i think Op sees it this way as well.. I became more devoted to me family and H than OP.. over time.. and of course over time OP made some mistakes as wlll which helped get me to this point..
I know what I did was wrong. I should have gone to counseling myself..but out of not wanting the whole darn family to know how bad it was. I chose another route.. in the end I do think many family members knew something was wrong..
I m not even sure if my H has had an A or should i say done inappropriate things.. He did come home with makeup all over a shirt after being out one night with his co workers..( this was before my A) which of course helped to justify all I did..
I will need support i Know it..and i thank anyone in advance for your help.. right now Im just in the phase I know i needed to do the right thing an did it..and feel compelled to see it thru. I know one day I will be over it.. just going ot take some time.. somenoe posted to me a good 6 months.. well after years and years.. I can only imagine how long it will be..

[ March 22, 2005, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: holdyourbreath ]

OWL, I can tell over & over by your posts and responses that you have really struggled with the honesty factor and it seems that your healing has been dependent on knowing EVERYTHING. You were deeply hurt and now it seems you are experiencing these "triggers" just as we WS's are. It sounds perfectly normal that seeing those "friends" names would give you pause and remind you about your W's EA. From what you've said about your story, though, you & your W are recovering and your R is going great. I am sorry that you still have lingering bad thoughts. It's good you can verbalize them and are in touch with them.

One thing that I've told my H several times when trying to describe what happened, is that it wasn't a competition. Especially in our cases of online EA's, being many miles apart. My H was understandably jealous & compared himself with OM. He e-mailed the OM & "threatened" him. Never in MY mind was I comparing my H with the OM, as if I had a choice to make. I NEVER thought in terms of this guy vs. that guy. It was 2 separate worlds. The EA was a fantasy that I intellectually knew would never develop into anything more. BUT, even KNOWING that, there were still intense, confusing feelings that weren't logical. Your W really knew that, too, even as she planned to meet the OM. Reality sunk in to her. The post I put up on fog yesterday is pretty much what happened to me. I felt "reeled" in and powerless, addicted before I knew it. Your W probably would agree. So, try to keep in mind that some of these EA's were not as though we were out seeking new boyfriends & trying to fall in love.

Speaking only for myself, I am searching for the HOW & WHY I was susceptible. This is the reason for keeping my IM conversations. Looking for things I said that may have spurred on the relationship (you talked about that a while back, OWL). I'm wanting to know what HE said to me that had me so mesmerized. I can then share that with my H (or at least help me define which EN it was). I'm wanting to know how to PREVENT myself from this situation again. KNOWING that it wasn't really about that OM, but that it was just meeting those EN's.

Does my H know about the files? No. I am struggling with that because he doesn't WANT to know any more. He doesn't want to talk about it anymore. He doesn't want to hear about how much I THINK I cared about OM. I have tried to tell him things on other occasions and he doesn't want to hear it. Not angrily, he just doesn't have the need to know. He may not be totally in touch with his feelings about it, and I am concerned about that and told him so. I think he's trying to keep it in perspective and move forward. He has been focusing on himself and also working on my EN's. I am very grateful for that and have a new-found respect for him. If he is working through this without aksing for every little detail, I am grateful for that. Do you think I should make him hear things when he doesn't want to? He is trusting me that it's over, and it is. I think that's all that matters to him. I have answered all his questions honestly & fully. I thought that's what we are supposed to do, let them guide the information flow.

Cards-

No, I would guess that if he doesn't want to know anything further, and doesn't want to talk about it anymore, I wouldn't expect you to 'force' the issue, unless you felt it was something that had to happen for you or for your marriage to recover. I would worry that he's still in the 'denial' phase of recovery...he's trying to act like it didn't happen, or minimize what it really was.

What you described does indeed sound a lot like what my wife felt during and after her EA as well. I don't know if she compared her OM and I or not, but I do know that I've done a lot of that myself. I too called her OM, partially to actually ask HIM to help her make the right decisions. It was civil for the most part, but I do have to admit to having warned him that "if you hurt her...". He didn't take that very well! LOL

Cards, if your H asked you if you still had any remaining emails, etc., would you be honest with your answer?

I am struggling with the honesty in that I do have things I will still look at. My H knows of something that I had looked at online with the OM's picture (and his family) on it after the EA was over. It hurt him that I looked there and still wanted to look there. I still have occasionally and when my H asks me, I tell him that I haven't looked there. He has never asked me if there was anything else...emails that I could look at. He would never understand why I would want to look at them and analyze them. He too has heard enough about my feelings for the OM and really doesn't want to hear anymore. I don't think that's denial as Owl was saying. I think it is that they have had enough information for them.
I think each BS is different in how much information they want to know and we need to respect them in that. If they want to know more, they will ask.

2B,

I think I would be honest in telling H I have mails & conversations. I would not want to share them though. I think that would be detrimental at this stage. Would he understand why I would hang on to them? Probably not really, but I think he would accept my reasons and let it go. My H is very forgiving and has a big heart. I think he has handled this whole affair (no pun intended!) wonderfully. I don't know that I would have been so forgiving and understanding if the tables were switched. He has genuinely taken some responsibility for what has happened.

Cards, it seems like your H is doing well with everything. You are blessed with how great he is doing and with him meeting your EN's. I agree with not wanting your H to see the emails and IM conversations even if he knew about them. If your H is like mine, he probably wouldn't want to anyways. When I deleted the emails from the OM in front of my husband, he only wanted to look at a few, and I carefully selected what I would let him see (or what I thought he could handle). Then he didn't want to see anymore.

I'm glad to hear that you've got such a supportive and loving husband, Cards. I really think that things WILL work out with you and him, as long as you hold to your end of the bargain. It's so easy to lose sight of how wonderful your spouse is when there is something else (or someone else) blocking you view of them...and it's amazing how quickly that can come back when that obstacle is removed.

And I think that you'll find that most BSs (at least the ones that care enough to come to sites like this for help) ARE willing to see their part in things. An affair is a real eye-opener for most people...even the WS!

Hang in there friend. I hope things keep getting better for you, and for everyone here who's dealing with this kind of issue.

^^

Thank you Autumn Day.
YOU ARE SO SMART!
I just couldn't get it to work.

I just have a feeling that this thread is going to help
a struggling person on this very day.

Help them to see that withdrawal pains are REAL, from the daily contact with another caring person.
(When it is decided to STOP an email friendship of perhaps many many months.) IT IS VERY DIFFICULT to give up the attention this OM has given us; they have become an important part of our heart and our daily life.

Plus, to help them see, that given time, the hurt inside will get better and they can have a happy life with their H (or W) again, as so many have written about, here on this thread.

I have been very thankful for this thread as I struggle to go NC with a DEAR man friend!

[color:"blue"]You're welcome Rain.

You might be sorry I bumped it though, because I decided to skim through the thread to see exactly what I bumped.

You don't need to struggle with NC anymore. Stop emailing om today. Close your email account so he cannot contact you. Tell your H the truth. Expose the dark world you've been living in to the light of day. It won't look so pretty then.

You seem to be more focused on the pain of withdrawal, (which btw, I know is very real), rather then focusing on recovery of your M. Recovery cannot begin until you are in complete NC. In fact, I wouldn't even categorize you as being in "withdrawal" because you've not withdrawn yourself from the A yet.

~ad, a fww [/color]

Autumn Day, everything you say is true and right.
I am VERY afraid of the withdrawal pain.
And I know if this 'secret' were out it would be terrible.

AD, thank you for caring, but I do not want to be focused on. This thread if for the others that are truly trying to withdraw from the EA. (I admire them greatly.)
If I did want advice, I would start my own thread asking for help.
I am not ready to exit this online affair, not yet.

I am mostly reading and learning.
I am still in the EA. I care very much for this OM.
Right now, I can't imagine my life without him in it.

That is why I seldom post.
My words are no good to anyone.
I am weak and selfishly enjoying the attention from OM.

Hey Cards....haven't seen or heard from you in a while...was hoping to hear you're still doing ok...(This is Owl...had to create a new login...sigh).

Give a shout friend. Hope things are going well.

We haven't heard from cardsonly since this new message board was started.

I wonder if she is having trouble finding it?

Karegh, could you change your ID back to Owl?
Or something like it?
(Owl Owl Owl or Owl 2005.)
You are such a knowledgable man!
We want you back as our Wise Owl.

Laura

I was wondering what happened to cardsonly as well. I wonder if she may be on vacation this week? I remember her mentioning about her family going on vacation before the forum went down.

Hello! Yes, I've had trouble with the site, then went on vacation. We just returned home today and haven't had a chance to explore the MB extensively.

I want to spend time to see how everyone is, I hope everyone is still posting. I am having good days & bad days. Getting away was helpful, but I do feel like I will be challenged once again. As soon as I walked in the door & felt myself return to pre-vacation life, all the reminders of what I was dealing with came back. I don't know what that is about.

I will take a couple days to get my thoughts together and pull my brain together. Unfortunately, my vacation wasn't very restful, and my H & I had hoped to have some quality time. That didn't happen so now we will have to carve out our time out of our normal days. I hope that we will.

Hello,
I've also been having trouble getting on here to post, and finding the thread! I was just going to say, cards was on vacation but she beat me to it!

I have not been doing well. Still just dealing with the withdrawl. H and I are trying counseling and have not been happy with the therapist so we must begin again. Trying to move through the depression. Did have an email slip up with OM, but he never responded to me so I guess that's good.

Also trying to deal with issues with H. Things are volitile and moving slowly. He realizes what he needs to change but doing it is going to take time. I don't know if it will make a difference for me, we shall see. I just keep reading the board and the concepts and trying to wait things out.

Hopefully posting will be easier with this thing!!

win

Hi Cards! Glad you made it back on here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I've been thinking of you and wondering how you have been.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel yourself returning to pre-vacation and the reminders. I've had a tough week or so myself...(check out my thread to catch up on me if you get the chance to)...basically I confessed to my husband the continued contact that I had with the OM and I really believe that there will be NC from now on! It felt good to be totally honest, but then my mind still wanders to where it shouldn't go. But we must look forward right and not behind? This is what I keep telling myself lately!

I hope you will be back on here soon!

Hi 2B, thanks for the welcome back. I will read your update tomorrow, I'm having trouble with the site (as others apparently are too).

I had hoped my time away would provide me some clarity about my situation, but I found myself actually dwelling on memories of OM MORE not less. We were busy and I'm wondering if that was my response to being out of my environment and without the MB & other support I had been used to. In any case, I was not expecting some of the feelings I had while gone, and certainly wasn't expecting to be fighting NC again.

Also feeling mixed up about my H & my progress. We weren't able to connect as I had hoped and he seems to be more angry than before. He's also not sharing his feelings about it, which is frustrating to me. I am also wanting to share more with him and he still doesn't want to hear it. We may need MC to help us with all this. I really thought we would have the discipline to work on this together, at least to get started, but now I am wondering. He tends to like to think & ponder on his own to solve problems, rather than us working together.

Anyway, maybe things will be clearer in a few days as we get back into routine.

Thanks for caring!

Hey Everyone!
Just wanted to pop in and say hi. Glad you made it all back here, as I was just about to send out a search party. Doesn't sound like everyone is doing too well. Let's put on a pot of coffee this week and sort it all out, eh?

I myself had some demons to battle this past week, which I can tell you about later. NC still in force and no question it will stick. My H is now posting on here too! Things in M are rolling along great.

And....drumroll please......My H and I burned all the momentos from A last night! It was liberating. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Cards, welcome back. Sorry your vacation wasn't what you hoped for. Don't worry. Things will get back in focus in your old stomping grounds.

Win, I just asked your H about you last night on the "In Recovery" board here on MB where he posted his questions about changing MC. Asked him to pass a message to you.

2BNormal, hi again and I'm glad we could "converse" while I was on my business trip. Still proud of what you did. You gave me the strength to burn my momentos.

Anywho, glad you all made it back safely. Just wanted to say I was glad to "see" you all again.
GS

PS - try Mozilla.com and download the free Firefox. That solved my problems on the system.

Good morning everyone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cards, I can relate to you and your vacation. When I went on vacation with my family last summer, I was just about to end my communications with the first OM. The entire vacation was miserable to me because I started to dwell on what I missed about him instead of my focus of not talking to him. It became very overwhelming for me! When I returned, my head cleared up soon and I ended my communications with him....of course I wish that was the end of my miserable story, but it wasn't since OM #2 was already there and replaced OM #1 after about a month.

It really sounds as if counseling may help the both of you. I've been thinking about getting back into counseling with my husband. We only had 3 sessions and thought that was all we needed to move forward. I'm not sure my husband will go though, so I may end up going just for myself. This takes alot of work to put a marriage back together and to make it strong! And I feel like you, I want to share more with my husband and he is ready to be over it. There is still the closeness that I want us to have that is not quite there yet.

gentlsoul, I am soooo proud of you for burning the momentos with your husband!!! Yeah!!! You will feel so great and even better as time goes on!

Gentlesoul- WTG!!!! Glad to hear that you and your husband were able to get to that point!! That is a great step ahead friend!

Cards- You've been on my mind quite a bit lately, my friend. My wife and I have taken to playing card games online together a lot lately, and it occasionally makes me think of your situation.

I've started my own thread finally, so feel free to look there if you'd like.

Believe it or not, the problems you had dealing with thoughts of your OM and the past during your vacation aren't surprising when you give it some thought. Bluntly, your time with your OM was a 'vacation' in a way...an escape from the realities of your day to day life. There are a couple of parallels there, so it's not surprising that you would have thoughts of him. And seriously, it's hard to deal with that sometimes. The best medicine I can offer you on that is this...you have the ability to change your thought patterns. I know, as I've had to learn to do this when I get down about things. So here's the thing. From now on, when your mind starts to drift to OM, and you realize that you're focusing on him...MAKE yourself stop, and think about your husband. Something positive, like something nice he's done for you, or an event or time that the two of you had that bonded the two of you...and focus on the happiness of THAT for a while. Do that long enough, and you'll train your mind to do it pretty much automatically. It sounds silly, but it works.

Some way to put what your husband is doing into perspective... It sounds to me like he and I are a lot alike in some ways. So here's my thoughts on what he's dealing with. Realize that when the affair first came out, he went into action mode. He immediately started to take action to save his marriage, to end the affair, to win you back, etc... He didn't have time to think about how he felt then...he was focusing on the actions he needed to take. Now that the marriage is 'safe', he's starting to actually get a chance to stop and look at how HE is feeling...up to now, he's been focused on YOU, and your marriage with him. He probably hasn't sat and thought about his own feelings in all of this that much...but now he's starting to. And he's trying to work through them, in typical guy fashion. We all tend to deal with our feelings within ourselves...and, bluntly, he's probably not sure that YOU are up to helping him deal with what he's going through. He's probably worried that sharing these with you is going to make matters worse, which is the LAST thing he wants right now.

Talk to him. Remind him that not sharing with him was what lead to your situation in the first place. Let him know that you're there for him, that you WANT to help him deal with this, and that doing so will help your relationship to heal, because you'll be helping EACH OTHER to deal with things.

Just my thoughts.

Win-
Sorry to hear that you two are still struggling as well. Out of curiousity, what 'extraordinary measures' are you taking to prevent contact with the OM now?? (remember SH advocates that these EM's be taken to prevent contact, and to reassure the BS as well...it seems to me that you may still have some room to do some work in that area....and having those in place actually HELP with withdrawl...because it finalizes the end of the A) You might consider looking at this, and see what can be done in this area to HELP the both of you.

Hang in there friends!

Hello all,

I want to thank GentleSoul for what happened the other night.

We opened a nice bottle of Pinot Noir and had a bit of a ceremonial bonfire. The mementos from the OM went up in flames last nite as we sipped wine. The emails from the OM went to the delete pile. I cant tell you how huge that step makes me feel. I know GS is over the OM, but this was quite symbolic if you will.

GS, it took a lot of courage to do that, it is but one of the many qualities I love about you.

I stand by you, ready to face all of life's challenges with you. I have the utmost love and respect for you.

Thanks for sharing a seat with me on this wild, crazy ride called life.

I love you with all my heart and always will...

beavis

WOW! Beavis & Gentlsoul!

You two are an inspiration. Gentlsoul, I am so happy for you! I hope that we all can get to where you 2 are. I am so encouraged by both of you that you had the courage and strength to work hard and follow through with what is right. Great job on NC GS!

Beavis, GS has been so helpful to me & I understand you have just recently been on MB, right? Have you discussed your struggles anywhere? I believe my H is struggling with his feelings over my EA. I would love for him to read how other BH came to grips with this. I am going to find Karegh's (OWL) story for him to read as well. Thank you & congrats!

This is SO frustrating! I just wrote a reply and it didn’t take! Let’s see if I can remember what I wrote.

Karegh-

Thank you (again) for your insights, you are right on target. Regarding the vacation, I was assuming that getting away would further my withdrawal & letting go process, not impede it. I was not prepared to think more of OM. My H & I did not connect on vacation, so putting “happy” thoughts of OM in my head probably somehow met the EN’s that H is not meeting. And since I didn’t have the trusty MB site to go to in my weakness, dreaming of OM fit the bill. You are right, Karegh, I really need to work on controlling the destiny of my thoughts.

I am very concerned, though, about this needs thing. My H is NOT working to meet them right now. I feel a certain frailty that they need to be met ASAP. I DO NOT want a repeat performance of this EA. H does not understand (or want to understand) the depth of OM & the importance of these needs. I feel wrong in “demanding” that he do the work to meet my needs, when I was clearly in the wrong with the EA in the first place. I have not met his needs in recent times, so who am I to expect him drop everything and suddenly take care of me? Yet, most of the time I feel in no position to work on his needs. We should both be working on each others needs at the same time, right?

Karegh, you said you worked hard on meeting your W EN’s. Was she reciprocating that to you? How were you able to give and not receive when she was the one committing the crime? By both making the commitment to save the M? You seem to have the opposite problem that 2B & I have. Your W has moved on, and you still need to discuss & communicate about the EA.

Thank you!

Cards,

your H is free to read any of my posts, but I dont think they explain how I got to where I am, let me try a little buit here, and hope I also dont get logged out!

The concepts that worked for me was

Communication: Open, direct, honest communication regarding our marriage, our feelings, the A, everything. Working to realize that our ways of communication in the past were not the best.

Patience- Very hard for me, perhaps the hardest thing I had to do was wait while she made up her mind to stay or go from me, while my heart was breaking inside watching it, knowing I still loved her dearly.

Support and stability- Knowing that I realized I just had to me myself, be there for her if she needed me, and LISTEN to her without judgement, even if it hurts. Present a stable environment while she and I both rode rollercoasters of emotions, for each of us,different sets of emotions as well.

Marriage and Independent counseling- a safehouse where feelings could be addressed and communicative styles identified. We did workbooks where we came to realize we both still cared for each other.

Mutual love and respect- this also came out a bit in marriage counseling, we discovered we had a very strong base, strong history and emotions for one another.

Exercise! I started hitting the gym hard, which helped dissolve a lot of anxiety away.

Retraining though processes- Hard, but when I found myself thinking backwards to the A, I tried to translocate the thought to the our future, together, happy.

I began romancing her, fallling in love with her all over again, but with a deeper understanding of her and I. That she is human, humans make mistakes and can be forgiven. That we now share a more open, honest, direct relationship, no more lying and hiding of thoughts and feelings. We try not to keeep things bottled up anymore, and instead expressing it right away.

I hope this helps him, I am getting nervous and am going to post without proofing so it doesnt bounce!!

beavis

Cards-

I would agree...we seem to be having the opposite problem. Doesn't that just figure. LOL! She has moved on, and any real discussion on the EA at this point becomes something of a lovebuster for her...because it brings up all her guilt and embarrasment and regret for what she did/nearly did. I'm not sure why I still feel the need to talk about it, but all I can really say at this point is that it's not something that's just 'gone and in the past' in my mind and heart yet.

You asked me how I met her emotional needs when she wasn't meeting mine...I'm not sure about exactly when (relative to the A, at least) you meant, so I'm going to take a stab at it. Obviously just prior to the A and during, I tried to meet her needs, but failed. Partially due to not understanding those needs, partially due to her not communicating them well to me, and partially due to simply not placing high enough priority on meeting them.

During her withdrawl, I did the best I could to meet her needs as I knew them, and as I learned more about them. I can't say 'why' I did really...because during that time I began to lose hope that we were going to make it myself. I even began working on things for her that would make her more able to leave, if that ultimately was her choice. I guess it was because I have always loved this woman, even when she didn't seem to love me. And I wanted the best for her, even when that best didn't seem to include me. My fight to end her EA was no different...I was (and still am) convinced that the vast majority of it was a fantasy, that it would have failed within months of becoming physical, and that she would have found herself even more guilt ridden and lonely and in pain than she was before. And then she would have found herself without the one person who really does love her for her, in reality and not fantasy...me.

I have to be honest about something...sometimes I'm still dealing with having my needs met myself, because she's changed a lot over the years. She doesn't think about stuff like this as much as she used to, it's not second nature like it used to be for her. So, we're trying to deal a bit with that as well.

As far as what you're going through, I REALLY think you need to go to counseling. And I'd suggest that you ask (make it clear that YOU need this from HIM) that he attend at least one session with you...and during that session, talk with the counselor about all of this. Make it clear to the counselor (and at the same time, your husband) how major the EA was, how it met some of your EN's, and how you're very worried that they may not be met if your husband doesn't take the EA as exactly what it was...a big red flag that your marriage is in danger if changes aren't made. Don't make it a threat...don't talk to your husband directly about this at first...just make it clear to your counselor what you're afraid of. Admit to the areas where you've made mistakes, suggest some of the things that you are doing or will do to work on them, but also make sure that what you need from your husband is clearly understood as well.

That raises something I'm wondering if you've had the time to do...have you truly gone through and identified what your needs from your husband are? What it is exactly that you need from him to make this marriage work? And at the same time, what do you THINK his needs are? And what are you doing to meet those? Do you think he's feeling as though those needs are met?

Again, I know he's not willing to sit down and talk with you about this, but the other part of this is that he needs to recognize that what happened didn't happen in a vacuum...that unless steps are taken to fix the PROBLEM in your marriage, your marriage remains in jeopardy...just don't make that a threat to him, make him understand that this is a WORRY of YOURS, and that you need his help to fix the problem.

Cards - my husband is not meeting my EN's right now either and that is really bothering me big time! We have discussed this and this is where the difficulty lies. He knows what I need, but he has this resentment over what I did and cannot meet my needs. Well, he can, but he is choosing not to at the moment. Also, these EN's are not something he is used to giving me, so it would take some effort of his. Big frustration for me when I think these needs were met by the OM and I still want and need them! I just don't know what to do when he doesn't feel that he needs counceling and he doesn't want to keep dwelling on the "A" that I sometimes still need to talk about.

2B:

IMHO, it sounds like counseling IS needed for him, resentment, not talking about the A, not meeting EN. These issues need to be address before healing can begin.
Some men will have a tendency to hold in thier emotions, and try and just get over it, but it is not healthy for him, not healthy for you, and certainly does not address seroius isssues in your marriage that probably helped led to the A in the first place...

beavis

"Owl" wrote:

...I was (and still am) convinced that the vast majority of it was a fantasy, that it would have failed within months of becoming physical, and that she would have found herself even more guilt ridden and lonely and in pain than she was before. And then she would have found herself without the one person who really does love her for her, in reality and not fantasy...me.

I agree. You are wise "Owl"

I do give a hoot what you post...

beavis

beavis, yes, my husband does hold in emotions, but he also let out alot of emotions after the first "A" was exposed. I honestly think that all of this is just really wearing on him for having to deal with it for so long. He really is a great guy and very loyal and committed to me. But, it will be a process for him to learn to meet my EN's that he has never really met before. Maybe I just shouldn't be expecting so much right now? But after reading what you wrote that you started to romance your wife...well that is just what I wish my husband would do, but he just doesn't seem to know how.

2B-
I hope that suggestion about talking to your husband about the future of your marriage helps. Talk with him about the romance thing too...I think that the 'romance' is a large part of the addiction of the affair. After all, the OM 'wooed' you, which is something that your husband hasn't likely done in a long time. We all need that at times, and at the same time, you might consider romancing HIM first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Beavis-
I don't know what to say friend. I still don't feel like a 'wise owl'. I'm still thinking about a name change, but don't know how to do it so that I don't have to change email accounts to support the site. Any suggestions on how to do that would be appreciated.

Hope everyone is doing well!

Quote

Talk with him about the romance thing too...I think that the 'romance' is a large part of the addiction of the affair. After all, the OM 'wooed' you, which is something that your husband hasn't likely done in a long time.

This is a big issue for us. Romancing. He just doesn't know how to!!! I've told him what I'd like, but then it all comes back to the feelings of the "A" and the resentment and that it's hard for him to "romance" me when he has these "feelings". When we were in MC, the MC gave him ideas, but we didn't get too far. And as far as me romancing my husband. Yes I have done that/ tried it. I really would like it to be reciprocated. Sorry if it sounds like I'm whining, but this is a big issue for us.

2B-
Well, it doesn't sound like it's whining to me. If it's a big issue, it's a big issue. That's about all there is to it.

Two things. You need to remind him how big of an issue this is for you. Yes, he's trying to deal with the A emotionally. But, this is the kind of thing that can help the two of you re-connect...and that's vital to recovery. You need to let him know where this stands on the priority list for you.

You commented that you told him what you like...but that it then raises the whole 'A' again...for who, you or him? Then don't tell him what the OM did that you liked....that would bust me down in the dumps too! Instead, try to think of NEW things that you would like...and go look for a book called "The RoMANtic's guide"...it's got a ton of cute little things that a man can do for his wife.

One other thing...realize that he may still feel like he's competing with the OM in all of this. It's really painful to feel like you're still fighting for your wife's love and attention after going through something like this...so instead of relating it in any way back to the A, try to find a way to make it fun and exciting...and NEW!!

The bottom line really is communication. It sounds like you both need to find ways to communicate better with each other. I'm not sure what to suggest if you're not still in MC. Maybe some of the other board members might have some suggestions??

Karegh,
Let me clarify how I told him what I like. For starters, I am not comparing him with the OM when I talk to him. He himself may be thinking that I am though. Here is an example of a scenerio that happened. A month or so ago we went to the Christian bookstore and bought several books together, one called "Romancing Your Wife". I asked him if we should buy it and he said yes. Well, it took him awhile to get to it and I asked him to maybe read a bit of it (I had already read some of it). He read the first chapter and he honestly felt that he has been a failure as a husband to me.

There were alot of great tips and ideas in this book and yet he comes away with feeling like a failure in how he has been to me and not feeling like he could live up to what he read.

We have communicated alot about this and he has done some things, but they just don't seem to happen much.

2B-

Sounds to me like your husband is doing a little reverse-guilt tripping. He's using the excuse that "I failed in the past, so how can I do better now"...which really is a crock of BS when you think about it. Fine, he feels like he's failed in the past...don't we all? That does NOT have to impact the future.

Tell him that you don't care about the past. It's done. What he can do NOW is to fix things going forward. Tell him that you've made mistakes in the past too, but you're going to use those to improve your marriage now, and not let how you've failed in the past hold you back from making a better tomorrow.

It sounds to me like he really needs to get some kind of counseling for himself. Personally, if I were his friend, I'd tell him to knock off the pity-party and start fixing things NOW.

Sorry if I've overstepped here. Just my thoughts.

Karegh,
I think he felt like he has been a failure, but...I think it's very hard for him to understand or know how to "romance" me. It's just not a natural thing for him. This is why I got the book, but now it has been put away for a good while.

We both want to move forward, but also in that, I really need him to step up and make some changes that I feel are missing from our marriage.

Funny thing is I spent a good bit of the time talking to the 2nd OM about how my husband doesn't know how to romance me! He gave me all sorts of ideas when he was still in the "helping my marriage" mode. I am sure that is what attracted me to this OM as he knew how to romance...but...well...we messed up there!

Beavis & Karegh

You both are wonderfully dedicated to your W & M, but I am wondering if you 2 are just simply exceptional H’s! Please take that as a compliment. You both seem so totally in love with your W’s and I am wondering if those are new, resurrected feelings of love or simply the love that you always have had for your W. Did you ever doubt that you loved your W?

1) Was your marriage basically happy until this one “freak” accident?

Not trying to get personal, just wondering where your M was before the A happened. In our case, I think we both knew that we had neglected our M for a long time. Busy with child rearing, etc, thinking we would eventually get back to putting time into our M. Part of me fears that we’ve waited too long to bring that love back.

2) Did you ever consider NOT salvaging the M?

My H says he loves me, but is apprehensive about working on the M because he doesn’t know that I love him. I do love him, but don’t “feel” love towards him right now (partly due to withdrawal from EA & partly due to EN’s not being met for so long). I think we both realize that we will have to work to find the “love” again.

I would love my M to be where you all have gotten, but I think both me & my H are having our doubts about being able to restore the love that got pushed aside a long time ago. I only am asking these questions as an attempt to have hope that even a M that has been neglected for a while can be restored.

On a positive note, my H & I had a good conversation last night. He is truly having trouble with his feelings about what happened. He has trouble expressing them to me & trouble even knowing what they are. Nevertheless, we were able at least to talk about where we want to go. We both know that we don’t want to go back to what it was before my EA. He is definitely feeling that he has failed me to some degree and he’s exploring what his EN’s are.

Karegh, FYI, I picked up 2 of the books you recommended, 5 Lang of Love & 20 Simple Things, and are just getting into them. The both look to be very helpful. Thanks!

Cards-
Let me preface this with this...NO...I am NOT someone who's exceptional. I try to be a thoughtful, loving, caring man. I try very much to understand all sides in a situation. But none of that is not anything that anyone can and does on a daily basis. I can say that I never doubted that I love my wife...though, at the midst of our 'crisis', I did wonder if I actually knew her like I thought I had. Turns out I did...I just didn't understand the alien who'd temporarily taken her over. LOL

1.Yes, our marriage was basically happy...up until about the last year or so prior to her EA. It took a major turn for the worse at that time, when she lost her job, and instead of getting a new job or resuming the role of house-mom, she got addicted to huge amounts of online gaming. Add to that untreated depression, and some serious disagreemant in how we should deal with the kids, and you have the recipe for disaster. Prior to that, we had 15+ years of fun. A family known for impromptu water fights (had one this past Sunday as a matter of fact...was a GREAT reminder of past times!), tons of hugs and physical affection, and a place where all the neighborhood rugrats hang out to have fun and be with a 'real fun family'. My wife and I have always been very loving towards each other, and used to drive people nuts with how 'in love' we stayed.

2. Yes. After three HARSH weeks of withdrawl, I'd finally started to reach my end. I had taken as much abuse as I could, and still be Plan Aing her (remember, I didn't know what plan A was then...just doing what 'felt right'). She had finally made one deliberately hurtful and degrading comment too many to me on the phone, and I'd had enough. I was at work at the time. I broke down, and started looking at my company's HR assistance site for legal advice/aid. That day, I contacted a lawyer and discussed the steps needed to get a divorce in our state. I wrote down all the info I got, and took it home that nite. She once again went off on me when I got home, and I took her downstairs to 'my room' so that the kids wouldn't listen in on our conversation, and gave her all that info. I even told her that my company would assist in financing one lawyer...that lawyer could handle both sides of the divorce, but could only 'represent' one of us...so I told her to file, so that he represented her. I told her that I still loved her, but that apparently I'd misunderstood just how little she still felt for me, and how ready she was to be out of the marriage. We'd talked about seperating up to that point, and she'd priced that day what an apartment would run her, but it would only come with a year lease. I told her that I wasn't willing to put our marriage on hold for an entire year while she 'found herself', and that if THAT was what she wanted, then we should just file for a divorce instead of seperating. We sat there both stunned for a bit...a few tears, and then we had to deal with the kids. But, interestingly enough, I think that was also a wake up call for her too, because it made her finally see that she stood to LOSE me...and she'd never truly given that real thought up to that point. It was later that evening that she came to me, and made her choice to re-build our marriage.

Let me share with you my perspective, Cards. I truly think that you CAN rebuild a marriage after an A, even if it had been neglected a while. If you two ever truly loved each other (and I think it very likely, given how things have gone for you post A), then it stands a good chance. The problem is that it's going to take WORK. It's not always going to be easy, and tough times are still gonna happen sometimes. My wife and I had a major blowup last nite...it left her crying and me shell-shocked, because it sounded EXACTLY like the kind of fights we had at this time last year. But, the difference this time was that we discussed it afterwards, we both apologized for our part in it (and meant it), and we both are looking to change the things that lead up to it.

I made a comment on the LS website once that I've had quoted back at me a couple of times there..."I don't want things to go back to normal (what they were pre-affair)...because that's what lead us to what happened. I want things to be BETTER!".

Take a look at that 20 simple rules...and setup some time right before bed for you and your husband to read a chapter each nite. Take turns on who reads, and talk about it HONESTLY and OPENLY when you're done reading. And if you hit a chapter that's too tough emotionally...take the time before you both go to work the next morning to talk about it then. That is what my wife and I did...and I think it made a HUGE difference for us.

Hang in there friend. Realize that you're still VERY soon after D-day, and you both are still working through the emotions of that. Remember what I said about the honesty factor though too...consider when you're REALLY going to let go of the OM by getting rid of the emails and pics and such.

Karegh,
Thanks for the encouragement. Like you, I KNOW we don't want the M to be what it was prior to the EA. We need to go back quite some time to find when we were truly happy together. But, alas, there was a time.

My biggest hurdle right now seems to be that I feel stuck in my progress. I've worked through the worst w/d symptoms, the worst days of depression, the hardest fights of NC. But, I can't seem to make the jump from OM to H. I know the EA is OVER, but I still can't shut it out completely. That's why I keep wanting & hoping that H will start meeting the EN's - I can't seem to break free on my own. If there is something else I can do to push myself forward I would love to know what it is. I know we've talked about the emails, etc before, and I don't feel that is an issue since I don't go over them & reread them. I know you can argue that destroying them (like GS) would be cleansing, but my H & I are not where they are yet. Maybe it's just a question of time.

One thing we discovered last night in our discussion is that the EN's seem work together. When trying to define which EN's were being met by OM, it's nearly impossible to translate to things that my H can do. Some of the needs I do not feel receptive to receiving from my H quite yet. So how can he fill my needs if I won't even let him? It's very confusing.

cards wrote:

Beavis & Karegh

You both are wonderfully dedicated to your W & M, but I am wondering if you 2 are just simply exceptional H’s! Please take that as a compliment. You both seem so totally in love with your W’s and I am wondering if those are new, resurrected feelings of love or simply the love that you always have had for your W. Did you ever doubt that you loved your W?

Quote

Cards, thanks for the compliment, only GS can answer that one. But if I was an exceptional husband, would the A had happened in the first place? So like (Owl), no I am not an exceptional husband.

Your other question is easy, yes, I have always been deeply in love with my W. But for awhile, with kids, work, different roles, new house, our lives soon became in parallel, and EN's werent being met, esp for her. I am still deeply in love with her, I truly believe more so now, because I have a more intimate understanding of her and her needs now, post-A?

I never doubted that I loved my wife, even in the abyss of pain, suffering and broken heartedness I felt after D-day.

beavis

Well, the fact that you don't seem to be able to 'jump from the OM to your husband' isn't one I'd panic over, but I do find it interesting. There have been a few FWW's that have posted on this site that noted that they were unable to immediately connect to their husband after the 'fog' lifted, but it did happen eventually. So I wouldn't call it quits just yet...

While I don't think it's fair, I've seen the pattern of not letting your H meet your needs before too. It suggests to me that you may not be completely through withdrawl yet, friend. AND...it sounds like you've still got some resentment towards your H about not meeting your needs in the past (and leading to the A). But looking back, I think that there were some lingering issues like that in my case as well. So again, don't take these things as signs that it's over between you.

I seriously think that you need to take some time. It takes months and years to recover a marriage from an affair...you've not been that long in the scheme of things. Don't panic that things aren't perfect yet...

Don't sell yourself short either friend. You're stronger than you realize. Just pace yourself, and do all the right things right now...even if they don't feel totally right. Don't be afraid to ask your husband to meet your EN's, and don't be afraid to 'let him back into your heart', either. My wife wasn't sure that she still wanted to stay with me, even after she knew that the R with the OM was over. It took her time to build up trust in ME...as silly as that sounds. It sounds like you might need the same...but at the same time, you need to take the 'risk' of giving him the chance whenever possible too.

Realize that you're BOTH on new ground right now...neither one of you is completely sure how to deal with each other sometimes. Your relationship now has changed from what it was, and it's still re-forming. That makes both of you unsure about where things stand. Give yourselves sometime to let things settle down.

Not sure if I'm making much sense. I hope so tho.

Quote

So how can he fill my needs if I won't even let him? It's very confusing.

Just some thoughts... see if any stick to you ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]This distance which you have created between your husband and yourself has a purpose. All repeated behaviors are purposeful. If you can, think of what purpose is being served (for you) by this emotional distance.

Does this distance protect you in some way?

Does this distance give you space to think?

Does this distance make you self-justify your decision to have the affair in the first place?

Are you frightened of allowing yourself to fall in love and be dependant on your H?

Do you fear rejection if you get too close?

Do you feel you are worthy/not worthy of your H's emotional attention?

Try and figure out the purpose being served by this distance.

Loving your husband fully involves taking a risk ... a leap of faith.

But what is the risk if you never take that leap?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />[/color]

cards wrote:

Quote

2) Did you ever consider NOT salvaging the M?

Cards, in the immediate weeks following D-day, I thought she was checking out of the marriage for good. My IC told me as did my friends, she wasnt good for me, their are plenty of people who would want you for a husband. I came to the sad realization that seperation was coming down the road. In fact, it appears there was a list being generated of avaiiable suitors for me... that really sickened me. Sure, its nice to be appreciated and thought of that way, but I wanted no one else to be with in the world, but my wife. That was the person I committed to, and the person I was truly in love with. It really hurts to write this, because I couldnt think of being with someone else. this A has tought ME many lessons too, and awakened and focused in me what is truly important in my life. My W and M.

sobbing beavis

Quote

Sure, its nice to be appreciated and thought of that way, but I wanted no one else to be with in the world, but my wife. That was the person I committed to, and the person I was truly in love with. It really hurts to write this, because I couldnt think of being with someone else. this A has tought ME many lessons too, and awakened and focused in me what is truly important in my life. My W and M.

sobbing beavis

Well said, Beavis. I just can't imagine seeking out someone else at this time in my life, when all I want is the woman I decided years ago I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I wish I had treated her better and paid more attention to her when I had her, because now that I am losing her I see how stupid I was being. Every marriage certificate issued should come with a link to this board, because no one trains you how to make love last a lifetime. People assume they can "make it up as they go along", but IMO very few men and women understand each other enough to make love last. And it's very easy to forget what's MOST IMPORTANT when you're trying to deal with everything else life throws at you.

Hi Cards,

Quote

But, I can't seem to make the jump from OM to H. I know the EA is OVER, but I still can't shut it out completely. That's why I keep wanting & hoping that H will start meeting the EN's - I can't seem to break free on my own.

Yes you can break free if you want to. No, you can't shut out the EA completely, but you can replace the EA thoughts and feelings with a reconnection to your H. The more effort you put into your M, the more comes back out. IMO, try not to wait for things to happen, wait for your H to meet your need, etc. Do, do, do. KWIM? Try and do the things your H and you always found fun and exciting before the A..the more you fill up his love bank, the more he is going to respond. And...give it some time.

From what you've said, I think your H is hurting. Try and put aside your feelings for awhile and put some effort in expressing love for him. You've been married a long time, so I know it's inside you waiting to come out. I bet he responds the way you are hoping.

I was very lucky that I had a H like Beavis. He is an exceptional H in my humble opinion. He didn't withdraw after the A, didn't back down even a little bit in expressing love for me. It really helped me come back into the M. The A overshadowed my feelings for him, but they have come back through love and attention from both sides of our fence. This last month especially has been a wonderful re-awakening for me.

So, Beavis, don't be sad. You did good (better than I deserved). You saved our M and I am sooooo grateful. Can't imagine life without you sweetheart.

Now....who started this list of suitors and just where is it? The list gets burned!! haha
GS

Quote

From Bassistis:
Every marriage certificate issued should come with a link to this board, because no one trains you how to make love last a lifetime. People assume they can "make it up as they go along", but IMO very few men and women understand each other enough to make love last. And it's very easy to forget what's MOST IMPORTANT when you're trying to deal with everything else life throws at you.

I feel the same way Bassistist - this was a great thought. I just thought good M's just happen, without really thinking or doing anything special.

I wish the A had never happened. But...the upshot is that I have learned A LOT about what M is to me and how really special it is if you put effort into it.

Bassistist, I'm sorry your M isn't doing so hot now. What do you think is your obstacle to connecting right now?
GS

bass...

"I just can't imagine seeking out someone else at this time in my life, when all I want is the woman I decided years ago I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I wish I had treated her better and paid more attention to her when I had her, because now that I am losing her I see how stupid I was being."

I am sorry friend, it sounds like you are experiencing my nightmare. That is, being so deeply in love and yet watching her slip away, knowing that in hindsight, things could mavbe been done to prevent it. I have complete empathy for you and hope that things DO works out for you and you rise from the ashes a better person, stronger and much more wiser from it..

beavis

Quote

Bassistist, I'm sorry your M isn't doing so hot now. What do you think is your obstacle to connecting right now?
GS

Withdrawal. It's still pretty hardcore. I think there was finally some closure last night with the OM but it's still going to be around for awhile anyways. And, the obstacle looming behind THAT is all the resentment my W has for the times I have neglected her in the last 6 years. I think that she has already made the decision in her heart to leave me, but she has stayed for the kids sake. That won't last for long, and she's stubborn too. Plus, I think she feels a very strong lure to do the dating she missed out on by being together with me since high school. I know she's curious about other guys.

I've been working on myself, trying to identify and meet her needs, and trying not to LB, but it's not going to do a bit of good if her mind's already set to go.

"I think that she has already made the decision in her heart to leave me, "

bass...

she cant make a decision about you right now if her heart is still tied to the OM. She is not thinking logically, with her mind, but with her emotions driven from the A.

Ride it out if she is truly your love in life. Give it all youve got, focus on being you, but also strong and stable for her. You just punched your ticket, get ready for the rollercoaster ride!

Know this, if in your heart, she is the love of your life and you are able to express it to her, when she DOES come out of the fog, she will hopefully see the man she fell in love with years ago, and your M will be stronger for it.

Never would have believed it if I hadnt been thru it myself.

Hang in there BS, keep your dignity and sanity, as hard as it may seem to do

beavis

Quote

Know this, if in your heart, she is the love of your life and you are able to express it to her, when she DOES come out of the fog, she will hopefully see the man she fell in love with years ago, and your M will be stronger for it.

Never would have believed it if I hadnt been thru it myself.

beavis

Yeah, the stuff I have learned from HN,HN and SAA are the only things keeping my hope alive now. I want to believe it can happen, but it's like believing it's going to rain tomorrow...I can wish all I want, but it's going to stay dry unless some clouds come by...I can't MAKE it rain.

Very frustrating. But I'm a controlling person at times, and this is teaching me some important lessons on THAT topic, at the very least.

"But I'm a controlling person at times, and this is teaching me some important lessons on THAT topic, at the very least."

GOOD!

Because that wont help matters one bit...

Affairs 101, a learning experience, but a class nobody voluntarily signs up for....

beavis

Well now, you all have given me quite a lot to think about! What a blessing to have such friends!

Karegh, yes you make sense and you are very intuitive. I do believe there is still some withdrawal going on, otherwise OM wouldn’t linger in my brain. And yes, resentment against my H for things in the past. There was a bunch of disconnection dating way back 11 years ago when we had our twins. We already had a 1 year old, then 2 babies on top of that. Survival mode – me taking care of babies, H working (I’m sure the same story of millions!). Both just trying to make it through the day. Well, I felt “abandoned” with our new family and I think that’s where some of our issues began. We muddled through the subsequent years but never addressed some of those important things.

So, Pepper, some of your questions are definitely applicable to me & our M. The distance protects me from being hurt after perceiving that my H withdrew from the family to do his job and tend to his own issues. He has depression in his family and deals with it as well. Stress is very hard on him, which is one reason why I probably “tolerated” his tendency to be self-absorbed. Instead of working together, we worked independently. This is probably way more than anyone wants to read about, but I believe I later pushed H away as a sort of “punishment” for the abandonment. Fear of rejection? Probably fear of being emotionally rejected. The distance as an excuse for the A? Positively no! The distance was there way before the EA. I NEVER had even considered an A. I think I filled the holes left by the missing EN’s with my family life, church life, friends, etc for a long time. I unknowingly succumbed to OM filling needs I didn’t realize I had.

Bassistist, your W and I are in similar places. There are long-standing issues in our M’s. Wanting the M to be good but questioning if the love will come back. My H is wondering too. We have great examples from the people posting here that tell us it can come back. This “thing” your W & I are stuck in has a hold on us. We want so badly to move past it, but it holds on and is a fight all the way. Our brain knows it’s logical to let go, but the heart is still afraid to let go of that something that was filling our needs. Yes, we were wrong and put it on ourselves, but we are working hard to go forward. Please give her time. When the grip loosens, THEN we can concentrate on our H’s & M’s. Don’t give up, that’s what I would want someone to tell my H.

Gentlsoul, you are a great example of working hard and doing the right things to get back on the right road. Thank you for continuing to reinforce those things with me. You & Beavis really worked hard together on this one. I am trying to bridge the gaps between my H & I, but I think it’s going to be in small steps rather than huge leaps.

Thank you all!

Well Cards, you and my wife have a lot in common. You see, we have two sets of twins, that are about 2 years apart. And about 13 months after the second set was born, I was sent on a six month deployment, so that my wife was forced to deal with all four of them by herself during that time.

And I can relate to your husband...when I'm stressed, I tend to introvert.

But...given those similarities, I hope that it gives YOU hope that you'll make it. The love really can come back friend...it takes time, and it takes healing on both sides. Both of you are wounded right now, in different ways, but still wounded. Give the wounds a little time to heal, and while you're doing that, try to nurse each other's hurts where you can. You'll be surprised at how much it helps you to help others.

Hang in there...there is light at the end of the tunnel!!

Gentlesoul:

Quote

I was very lucky that I had a H like Beavis. He is an exceptional H in my humble opinion. He didn't withdraw after the A, didn't back down even a little bit in expressing love for me. It really helped me come back into the M. The A overshadowed my feelings for him, but they have come back through love and attention from both sides of our fence. This last month especially has been a wonderful re-awakening for me.

So, Beavis, don't be sad. You did good (better than I deserved). You saved our M and I am sooooo grateful. Can't imagine life without you sweetheart.

GS: Thank you for the kind words. Everyday you are a source of inspiration for me and others here as well. I truly am blessed to be with such a gentle soul.

I have so much hope for us and our future together.

I cant explain why I even had a mini-roller coaster ride of emotions on the down side yesterday, esp. with all the positives lately. Oh well, I guess I am human too.

I hope I can offer an inspiration to others too with what I have to say at times. I have never felt more alive and in love with my W than now, three months post-A. I am a reawakened spirit who sees with eyes wide open now. I love my W more now than ever before. I love her for her kindness, openness, her charms and yes, her faults.

Take care GS,

beavis

Please help with this one everyone!!! Brought up on 2BN’s thread by TMCM.

When should the BS try to start meeting the EN’s of the WS? I’m sure there is not a clear-cut answer here, but does anyone have some direction?

Thank you!

[color:"midnightblue"]'cardsonly', I posted this on the above mentioned thread,.

Actually I was thinking I was posting on THIS thread, this is the one I have been following since you first started it.

And if you check what I wrote on 'Mixed Molly's thread', you will see as a BW, I tried my darndest to give him something to think about besides his OW.

But maybe in YOUR case, since you are the WOMAN, it will need to be YOU that creates the fun and excitement in your marriage!~lol~ (Just a thought.)

This is what I wrote:
If you go back and read what you wrote in the beginning posts, you will see how far you have come.

I don't think you will EVER forget your OM friend.
We are not made that way.

I am the kind of person that if I am on an airplane, having a conversation for several hours with someone (male or female) I feel a certain sadness that never in my life will I see or talk with that person again.

So to even think of never talking again with a person that you have been REALLY CLOSE to, that fulfilled many emotional needs, made you feel special ((like a school girl) gave you affection and attention through his emails )....well, of course you won't forget.

But that doesn't mean your marriage can't improve and be the way you have always hoped and dreamed it could be.

I used a quote from you in a message on 'Mixed Molly's' thread. I hope that was alright.

If not, I would be glad to go back and delete it.

Sincerely, Julie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />[/color]

Just an update--

I know I'll get heat for this but, I spoke with my OM on tuesday and finally got some closure. I know people don't advocate it but it really helped me. I am feeling better, though still sad, but the fog is lifting.

I don't know where that leaves my marriage yet. Still working on it. But at least I can focus on my feelings now and sort through things.

-win

Cards-

I'd agree...I don't think there is a 'hard, fast' rule on when meeting EN's should start. IMHO, it should happen as soon as both parties are ABLE to do so. We all know that the WS isn't willing to meet any EN's during NC, or during withdrawl. It's pretty much a given. As a matter of fact, THAT was the clue that let me know that you're still dealing with withdrawl, Cards.

I've seen in some cases where the BS wasn't able to meet needs for a while after d-day either...sometimes for a considerable time after. This is mostly because of the emotional trauma that THEY'RE dealing with.

I don't want to get too off-topic, but follow me for a moment. I'm ex-military. I've had a 'unique' military experience. I KNOW what PTSD is like firsthand...and I can absolutely tell you that I suffered from it again as a result of my wife's EA. I had nearly all the same symptoms and feelings that I'd felt the first time. If it's THAT traumatic, esp for someone who's been through as much @#$@ as I've been, maybe that can help a WS understand just how hard the whole thing can be to deal with from a BS perspective. (BTW...my wife had no idea about how tough it was, until our MC flat out asked me about PTSD...he knew I was a combat vet). It's really, really unlikely that anyone who's suffering from this kind of problem will be able to meet anyone's needs right away. Once they can quit obsessing on their own hurt (just like the WS's getting past withdrawl), THEN they can start worrying about someone else's needs.

But, on the other hand, I was able to try to meet my wife's EN's within a week of D-day. MY stress didn't set in until after I'd finally dealt with the crisis of saving my marriage.

I think that any FWS who's attempting to reconcile their marriage should do the following:

1. Clearly define their EN's, and work with their partner on a plan to ensure that they are met.

2. Actively work with their partner to define the BS's needs, and a plan to ensure that THOSE are met too.

3. Both parties should set clear expectations on meeting needs...and establish WHY those needs MUST be met.

Cards and 2B, I really think that if you're really feeling like your EN's are being completely ignored, that you insist on a joint MC session, and make it very clear to your spouse that fixing your marriage is your top prioriity, and that meeting EACH OTHER's EN's is CRITICAL. Making them accountable to SOMEONE ELSE for meeting your needs is one way of getting the job done. And ALWAYS make sure that this is a two way street...if you want your needs met, meet your spouses needs too.

Won't be on for a few days...good luck my friends, and God bless you all.

Hi Everyone,
A couple thoughts that have helped me:

First and foremost, please remember that your S is not solely responsible for making you happy. You are. You are in charge of your own happiness. If you are happy, then it makes it enormously easier to invite your S into your life and share with him. I think we FWS's tend to fall into the mindset that M's make us happy. There are happy M's, but only if both people are independently happy within themselves and capable of extending our happiness to our S. From there EN's get satisfied on both sides.

Get healthy and clear of thoughts and feelings of OM before you make big decisions...like deciding whether your M is the right thing for you. OM's are still with you in spirit Cards, Win and 2BN...I sense it all the way from here in Southern California <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's normal and you are doing great with NC, but just recognize those feelings get in the way of identifying your feelings for your H's. Withdrawls can last 3, 6, 12 months after final NC.

Lastly, the more you put into M, the more you get out. Your H's have been through a lot, and maybe it isn't fair to wait for them to "shape up". Maybe instead of asking much of them at this frail time, give love to them. It's hard at first, but it gets easier the more you do it. And the more you show them your love, the more you are going to get back.

And share your feelings with him. Men love to be needed and admired. Ask for their guidance and appreciate all that they do.

Through communication you begin to understand what went awry in M. And it takes a lot of time to heal. We have a long way to go to full recovery so try and be patient.
GS

BT-

Thank you for reminding me how far I’ve come since those early weeks of w/d. Those were horrible days & times. So maybe I shouldn’t get so impatient with myself and my progress considering the crazy place I was at. As far as forgetting OM completely, I really can’t imagine that will ever happen either. But I hope enough so that it doesn’t hurt when he pops into my mind. Your car idea – very interesting. I told my H about it and he liked it. And also, no problem with the quoting me – ever.

Karegh-

Have a nice break, wherever you are going. Thank you for all your helpful suggestions. I so appreciate the time you take to write and spell everything out for us. You probably feel as though you say the same things over & over. But I guess it’s that reinforcement that we sometimes need. You have certainly been through a lot, and have had to work through a lot of things.

My H & I talked again last night and he listened to me honestly talk about how I am feeling at this point. We talked about how important it is we start working on our M. He still seems to think he has to deal with himself first, but I tried to explain that there are some things we need to work on together NOW! We talked about EN’s but are putting them on the back burner for now. We started the 20 Simple Rules like you suggested, K, and hope that will put our minds in the right framework for working on the M, and then graduating to the EN process.

GS-

Good advice again. Yes, I have to realize to accept the lingering OM thoughts. Sometimes I still want to just dial OM’s phone, but I don’t. I’m trying to look for a pattern of when I am tempted to do so – sort of like a dieter who has to analyze why they reach for food. Haven’t come up with anything yet.

GS, how long did it take for you to really get out of the fog? I think I am out of it mostly, but I still feel like I’m having to still PUSH myself to “care” about other things. Much of the depression has lifted, and I don’t know if that’s what is lingering, but I still find myself not really caring about some of the things that were a really big part of my life before the EA. Granted, I had mentally checked out of lots of these things while living in my fantasy, but I thought by now I would be caring once again about my church meetings, the kids’ activities, etc. I’m not getting the satisfaction from those things that I did before. I have been so self-absorbed with all this. Just like I was not looking forward to the vacation. Does this make sense to you? Will that ambivalent feeling just fade away and will I once again be fulfilled by these things? Thank you.

2BN-

If you are still reading here, I want to tell you how proud I am of you getting rid of your OM pics and such. A couple days ago I read everything you had been through during the week I was gone. Coming clean with H (again) and then deleting pictures & memories. How are you feeling about it all now? What did you feel when you actually were doing it? And how are doing now? I haven’t seen anything new on your thread. Great job!

Hi Cards, I just wanted to say that I think you are doing really well when you think how far you have come! You and I seem to be in a similar state though with still thinking of the OM. I really think these thoughts will fade over time and I'm going to really try hard starting today whenever these thoughts pop in my head to stop and pray, read a Bible verse and just make my mind think on something else!

Quote

A couple days ago I read everything you had been through during the week I was gone. Coming clean with H (again) and then deleting pictures & memories. How are you feeling about it all now? What did you feel when you actually were doing it? And how are doing now?

To answer your questions - I was really ok with deleting the emails and pics when I did it and I am still ok with it now. I have to admit that I can still access an old account of the OM I think he forgot about and there are about 2 weeks of emails on there (over a 100 emails). I cannot delete those since it is not my account, but I have to be strong not to look there. I was weak yesterday and looked there for some reason. I have to not go back there or it will keep me thinking of the OM.

Another thing that keeps coming into my head is that I get really upset that the OM's wife doesn't know certain things about what happened that I had told my husband. I only know that she doesn't know these things since I had the further contact with the OM. Looking back, if I would have kept the NC, I would have nothing to be upset about.

Things are starting to get better with my husband and I. I can't remember which thread I wrote this on about wanting my husband to read a book called "Romancing Your Wife", but he picked it up the other day (without my asking) and has been reading it. I think my husband is realizing that this is very important to me.

Quote

Much of the depression has lifted, and I don’t know if that’s what is lingering, but I still find myself not really caring about some of the things that were a really big part of my life before the EA. Granted, I had mentally checked out of lots of these things while living in my fantasy, but I thought by now I would be caring once again about my church meetings, the kids’ activities, etc. I’m not getting the satisfaction from those things that I did before. I have been so self-absorbed with all this. Just like I was not looking forward to the vacation.

Cards, I know you addressed the above to GS, but I wanted to comment on this as well. I really went through this phase you are talking about and not really caring about things. I think I am starting to get out of it and you are talking about someone who has been in a fantasy for over 1 1/2 years. I can still linger there if I want to, but I really had to push myself to care about things. My husband and I had really gotten out of going to church on Wednesday nights (amongst other things)when I got involved in the first EA back in July 2003. That's a very long time! We had gone here and there together, but mostly not. A few weeks ago we committed to a class on Wednesday nights in which we have a study and workbook. I became really excited about this and it gave me a focus and also some good discussion with my husband during the week since we have to do the homework over 5 days each week. I was thinking if you and your husband can get into something where you are working together on it, that possibly it could help you get a focus on things.

Thanks for your encouragement, 2BN. I hate to admit, though, that part of my problem is I'm still feeling unsure of my feelings for my H. I want to BELIEVE that we can both have loving feelings towards each other, but I just don't know.

I'm glad you're feeling good about removing the memories of OM. I still don't think I can do it yet, even though I don't look at them or read them anyway. It must be wanting to hold on to the fact of someone wanting & needing me. Do I think I may need to read those things sometime when I feel no one loves me? 2BN, What is relevant about what OM W knows? Are you upset that OM wasn't completely honest with his W? What ever happened with your search for MC? Any luck?

Regarding the fantasy life we lived in, I sometimes wonder if the fact that ours was online EA makes it harder to "join" back into reality. Since everything took place over the pc and the outside world was not involved at all, it seems to me that it was extremely easy to lead that separate life. I can't imagine being in that state for that long. What is your relationship with your pc now?

Quote

I want to BELIEVE that we can both have loving feelings towards each other, but I just don't know.

Cards, I would have never thought that my husband and I could have loving feelings toward each other again. I had distanced myself a great deal from him over that time. There were times I told him I wanted out or I wanted him out. But something clicked for me in the last week or so. The more we seek to do things together and spending time together I see a love coming back and I hope that this love will even become greater.

Quote

It must be wanting to hold on to the fact of someone wanting & needing me. Do I think I may need to read those things sometime when I feel no one loves me?

I think it's part of it and that is very hard to let go of. I will admit that when I deleted the OM's pics, I also finally deleted pics that I had of the first OM. This first OM actually came to see me in Oct. 2003 and we had taken pictures together and for some reason, I still held on to them. I don't know why I started to look at those emails yesterday in the OM's account? I was curious if they were still there, but why did I look at them? I was trying to analyze them again, but for what? I just can't look there again!

Quote

2BN, What is relevant about what OM W knows? Are you upset that OM wasn't completely honest with his W?

There were a few things I had asked the OM that I had wondered about if he told his wife. His wife had seen a some of our emails, which is how we were caught, and the content of those emails were sexual in nature which I'm sure was bad enough. This is a little embarrassing to come out and say, but there were "other pictures" (if you get my meaning) that she is not aware of. My husband specifically asked me if we exchanged these types of pictures and I was honest with him and told him so even though it was hard to do so. I know she does not know of them, and should I really be angry that she was spared that? She knows he knows what I look like, but she didn't want to know what I look like and has an ugly picture painted of me in her mind. The OM told me he was glad that his wife did not pursue wanting to know what I look like because she would feel that she could not compete with me and their marriage would struggle even more! Also right before the OM's wife caught us, we were planning on me possibly flying up to see the OM. My husband knows of this, but I am sure the OM's wife does not know. Also the OM had only told his wife that this had started a few months prior to when she found the emails. He told her we met on a Christian forum, which is true, but he did not tell her that we had communicated for 6 - 7 months before the EA started. So I guess I get angry when I think about that she does not all the details that my husband knows of. And really I shouldn't be, but I am at times. I have told my husband of these angry feelings that I get and I have been praying about them and they are starting to go away now.

Quote

What ever happened with your search for MC?

We never did any more searching on a MC. I'm not sure that we will at this time. One of the things I told my husband that I would like to do is go on a "Weekend to Remember" by Family Life and that will be in our area in the fall. So I am going to pursue that for us to go to.

Quote

Since everything took place over the pc and the outside world was not involved at all, it seems to me that it was extremely easy to lead that separate life. I can't imagine being in that state for that long.

It wasn't easy for me to lead a separate life. It became very difficult for me to continue and try to lead a normal life at home. I think with the 2nd A, I got better at hiding things, but it still was difficult to have that all inside of me. I think the very worst of this whole thing for me was the days leading up to the first OM coming to see me. My husband remembers me sitting at dinner with dark circles under my eyes! He knew something was wrong but could not figure it out.

Quote

What is your relationship with your pc now?

I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean is it hard to be on my pc at work and not think of the OM? It's still hard at times and I still do check that email account for some reason. Not as frequent as before though.

2BN-

It gives me hope to hear that others doubted their love but later had the feelings coming back. I do love my H & I have gained some respect for him by the way he has been handling this whole situation. He has tried hard to be supportive of me and has tried to hear about my feelings. I guess that's a beginning and I should realize the importance of that. So much time has passed when we were disconnected, maybe that's why it's hard for me to imagine us closing the gap. I am trying though.

I find myself wondering, too, what transpired for my OM at discovery. I am sure OMW felt threatened by me when she saw my picture in the display of IM. Then combine that with reading our conversations 2 weeks later. I'm sure she realized the depth of the EA, thus the ulitmatum given to OM. I try to put myself in her shoes and imagine what I would think & do if the situation were reversed. I am sure my OM's world was turned upside down, even though he didn't portray it that way. He chose not to share the details with me, which was a sign to me that he had chosen to stop in order to preserve his M. For both of us, our OM made the decision to protect their W as much as they could. Speaking only for myself, I'm sure I felt some rejection that W was "chosen" over me (even though I had no intention of leaving H for OM). That's the irony-wanting OM to want me more than anything, but having no intention of leaving my world for his.

Cards,
I think the love for you and your husband will come back. I also think we all do so at different rates for we are only human right? Are you 2 spending alot of time together? Have the 2 of you gone out on dates alone? These are some of the things we try to do as a couple. This weekend we went out alone 2 nights in a row. It doesn't have to be dinner. Sometimes we just go out and sit and people watch somewhere and spend the time together.

I do think my OM protected his wife from whatever he could. My husband asked me the questions and I answered them with honesty. Had he not asked, I'm not sure how much I would have shared.

Did you and your OM talk about marriage? I know you said you would have never left your world to be with him, but I was just wondering if you had those conversations. The OM and I talked about that in great detail at times, but of course we could never come up with any great solution without causing alot of hurts! I think the logical side of me knew it could never be, but the fantasy side of me wanted it to happen and thought it could! The stupid side of me told the OM I would wait for him if his marriage did not work out!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> He and his wife had so many problems over the past year that I really didn't think they would make it and there was hope for me. Talk about fantasy!

2B and Cards-

I know that my wife didn't feel that the love would ever come back either. I got the standard "I love you, but not in love with you" statement when the EA was out in the open. Then once the OM told her not to come to him (because he knew she wasn't sure what she wanted), she felt like I had cut off her only chance for happiness...I think she hated me for a while there. It took time, and it took a lot of patience on my part, but she finally started to 'come around'. And the love came back to at least what it was years ago...maybe more, because now she knows how far I'll go for her.

Her and the OM didn't say 'married' from what I learned, but they absolutely believed that one day that they would 'be together', and be living together. Before d-day, they'd both agreed that she would wait until all the kids were out of the house...in other words, they were planning on keeping this going for YEARS! Now THAT was a fantasy. Once the A was out, and she was ready to fly away and live with him, they'd talked about marriage and being together forever. But again...realize that she completely realizes now what a fantasy the whole thing was...there was really no chance of it turning out as wonderful as she'd planned...the kids hated the OM, and there was no way I was willing to quietly stand to one side and become a best friend to both of them when they got together.

Cards- I'd seriously suggest that you and your husband start doing a LOT of things together that have nothing to do at all with the A. Dating, in other words. Do NOT talk about the A...just be together, and re-introduce yourselves to each other.

2B- I still think you're doing great, but the whole 'still got an email access' thing bothers the heck out of me. Just imagine what your husband would think/feel after your 'coming clean' to him last week if he found out about that?? Seriously, I'd say that you should either have your husband (NOT YOU) contact the OM/OMW and ask them to delete/change the password for that account. OR...have your husband use XP to block that website on your computer. That way, you're no longer tempted. Once again, it means admitting to your husband about something ELSE.

Coming clean means coming clean. No more secrets. It's the SECRETS that hurt your husband as much as anything else.

Not judging, not screaming at you. I'm just letting you know what it's like from the BS viewpoint.

Karegh, I understand what you are saying. I never thought of this email account when I told my husband of everything a few weeks ago. This email account I am referring to is one that I'm sure the OM forgot exists. He used it back in Sept. for about 2 weeks and then he switched to yahoo. He probably has no clue that I remember it exists or can access it. I will just have to not access it again. I'm not sure telling my husband about it is a good idea or even getting the OM involved. My husband didn't want to contact him regarding the email accounts.

Quote

That's the irony-wanting OM to want me more than anything, but having no intention of leaving my world for his.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

well....

you just described "cake-eater" to a [color:"red"] T [/color] ....

Once you make the decision to go with your marriage, put your whole self into it ... or else you remain a virtual cake eater.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, Pepper, thanks for being blunt. I am not proud to have to admit to being a cake eater. As Gentlsoul said, "Either I'm married, or I'm not".

I have to say, though, at the point of D-day the EA was still gaining momentum and had it continued I can't say what would've happened. I probably could've been talked into about anything by OM at that point. I remember before D-day reasoning that it wasn't possible to ever be together, yet we discussed meeting. I knew in my head that something was going to have to give soon because I couldn't continue on the way it was. I was in such a "drug" induced state that I felt I wasn't functioning well in my "real" life. It was very difficult for me to keep the 2 lives separated. So, to answer your question 2B, no, we didn't ever get to the point of discussing M.

K, glad you are back and posting again. 2B & K, no, my H & I are most definitely NOT spending enough time together, but we do know that this is a problem. We are spending most of our time running kids to & from school, soccer, and other activities. We both recognize that we have failed in the area of prioritizing our M. Way back when I was in the Twins Club we were told to make sure you go on dates with your H. We didn't, as we had no one capable enough to watch our 3 babies. I will take both of your advice on this and make sure that we START by doing things together on a regular basis. We are almost to the point of leaving the kids home alone for small blocks of time - and we are so looking forward to that!

Karegh wrote:

Quote

I know that my wife didn't feel that the love would ever come back either. I got the standard "I love you, but not in love with you" statement when the EA was out in the open.

Bingo <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Common in the fog to say, doesnt make the BS feel any better. Kind of makes them feel like being the WS's Uncle Lou or Aunt Betty.

Quote

Her and the OM didn't say 'married' from what I learned, but they absolutely believed that one day that they would 'be together', and be living together.

I think a lot of people involved in an A think it will be like that late seventies movie with Alan Alda, "same time next year". About an adulturous couple who meet once a year for a rendezvous in a cabin, but both are still married, to other people. Ah, hollywood. Thanks for that movie, and "Closer" too.

Quote

It's the SECRETS that hurt your husband as much as anything else.

Once again, Karegh is right on the money. It truly hurts more to me at being decieved than the actual PA. Not saying that part doesnt feel like a cold, steel dagger in the chest, or perhaps somewhere on the body lower.

To all, Your M can get better. Its work. Its not fun to repair at times. Its also not a fantasy world, its reality. But it is a reality worth fighting for IMHO. Its a relationship build on love, respect and commitment, not deception, lies and secrecy.

We both got a wake-up call. I see my M certainly progressing better than before the A happened. I also project that it can be better than it ever was because of a clearer understanding of each other's needs and desires. I love my W with all my heart, I am glad she chose to stay with me, not for the good of the kids, not because she had to, but she is here because she wants to be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> (At least thats how I read it, GS?)

take care

have patience and hope

beavis

Cards, here are four little words your husband would like to hear right now: " I hired a babysitter" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It is extremely important to have time for just you two, no kids. Also, when you DO go out on that date, trust me on this one, dont talk about the A, or bring up problems, just try and have fun together. Save the hard talks for another time, this is cherished time for the both of you to reconnect and see what it was that brought you two together in the first place.

I recommend a book to you called "12 hours to a great marriage" by Howard Markman, et. al.

There are chapters in it called Having Fun, Being friends, etc,etc

It might give you an additional tool to help take that first step towards reconnection and recovery.

best wishes cards

beavis

Quote

I was in such a "drug" induced state that I felt I wasn't functioning well in my "real" life. It was very difficult for me to keep the 2 lives separated.

So very true cards! Even if you would have continued and even got to talking about marriage, it still was a fantasy. I don't think any human can keep the 2 lives separated and keep going on with real life. It's just not possible!

As beavis said and Karegh said as well, you and your husband really need to prioritize spending time together and not talking about the A when you are spending this time together. Why not try to schedule time for this weekend? I'm in an easier situation with older teens and we have more flexiblity, but isn't your marriage worth it?

My husband has already scheduled for us to go to breakfast alone this Saturday. This is something that I truly enjoy and had talked to him weeks ago about this and that it would mean so much to me. This is the first time he is doing so, and I can't wait! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cards-

It sounds to me like you and my W were both at about the same point when d-day hit. They had gotten to the point where they were exchanging emails and IM's like crazy, they were calling each other at least once a day, and had JUST started talking about setting up a meeting face to face. (Knowing something was wrong with my wife, I'd ASSUMED that it had to be family related...and I wanted to get her away from the computer that she'd lived on for MONTHS, so I'd offered that she could take a weekend to herself to help her feel a bit better about things...sadly, the day I suggested it, she immediately started talking to the OM about using that time to meet up...what a slap in the face)

She was REALLY having trouble keeping things straight...esp since she was always wanting me to like him and become friends with him...so the three of us ended up doing things online together a lot. It was a really strange situation.

I really think the babysitter idea is WAY worth it...it was not taking "us" time that lead to all of us being in our respective situations to begin with! Now...we KNOW the need for it.

2B-

I stole your hubby's idea...just setup a brunch with my wife for this Saturday as well! LOL

Well, it's unanimous then!!! We need to go out on a date! You all agree, and I have to admit that just going out together and spending some time together sounds like a very good first step. I think we can both deal with just trying to do something fun and casual, rather than feeling pressured to meet EN's and talk about everything. Maybe that was putting the cart before the horse. I could feel myself digging my heels in when it was suggested that we start meeting the EN's for each other.

Thank you! I will make sure we have some alone time together this weekend.

Quote

I will make sure we have some alone time together this weekend.

[color:"red"] YES !!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> [/color]

Quote

I think we can both deal with just trying to do something fun and casual, rather than feeling pressured to meet EN's and talk about everything.

Cards, I believe as you and your husband start spending this quality one on one time together you will start to see your EN's being met. This is how I am starting to feel because as I see us placing the importance on "each other", we are caring for each other and meeting EN's.

I was also wondering if you and your husband get much time alone during the week or are your days really hectic and not allowing this to happen? My husband and I try to take the time to talk to each other alone every evening after dinner. Usually we will retreat to our bedroom and talk for 15 minutes to an hour. This really gives us a chance for us to listen to each other and focus on how our days went.

Quote by Karegh:

Quote

2B-
I stole your hubby's idea...just setup a brunch with my wife for this Saturday as well! LOL

Karegh, Glad I was able to help you for a change! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My husband had asked me about breakfast via email, which I thought was cute. I replied a big YES!

Well, it's official....LOL...I now join the ranks of the medicated. Had to take my son to the Dr last nite for an ear infection...doc looked at me, asked about the bags under my eyes, my sleep patterns, etc...our family doc knows basically what happened as my wife got her anti-depressants from him. Bottom line is that after talking with me about how I'm doing at this point, he's decided to place me on Zoloft. Sadly, instead of being relieved that something is being done about it, my wife just feels guilty that I have to take the meds.

We're going through some tougher times at the moment...lots of stress from the kids (oldest ones graduate soon, and really 'feeling their oats'), work related stress for me, and I've been down a lot more lately than I had been in the past. Keep us in your prayers please.

Hope ya'll are doing well, and I apologize for using your thread to vent, Cards. Guess I just figure that my situation doesn't really warrant it's own thread anymore.

Last thing...if ya'll haven't already (I haven't looked yet this morning), there is a new thread started by Sysyphus...I suggested he come here from another board. His situation is VERY much like mine, but his d-day was just a short time ago. Any support ya'll could provide him would probably help him alot. Thanks!

Karegh,

My heart is breaking for you. You have so selflessly given of your time and your experiences to help all of us on these threads. Your support and advice has helped ME immensely, and I know I speak for others as well. Know that YOU have helped us save our marriages. NEVER apologize for posting on this thread! I feel like we've all gotten to know each other and can talk freely about anything.

I sometimes feel guilty for all the time and energy my EA has sucked out of me, my H, and even all of you who give to help us. Even though we focus on these marital crises here, we all have other problems and issues in our lives. I hope you're not feeling bad about taking anti-d, this is a fact of life with my H and his family history.

Anyway, you are in my prayers, K. And let us support you as you have supported us. Take care!

Karegh, I am sorry for what you may be going through right now. You have been such a blessing and help to me and my marriage. You have helped me see and look at things I didn't see or didn't want to see! I also do understand the stress of things as our oldest is also graduating this year...Keep us posted on how you are doing. You and your family will be in my prayers.

Hi Cards, Just checking in on you. How are you doing today? Were you able to arrange some alone time with your husband yet?

Hi 2BN-

Thanks for asking, been wondering about you too. I see that you are forging ahead with your riddance of OM! That is great, I am happy you are able to do that! I am buoyed by your strength!

I really think I am getting there, too. I have had a pretty good week, I noticed that I actually lost track of OM W's work schedule. You see, she worked on 7 days, off 7days - the on days were when we could talk late at night in addition to during the day. I had mentally kept (and actually marked my calendar)the schedule, but didn't even realize what it was this week. Sounds like a small thing, but I see it as another piece of letting it all go.

Have barely even seen my H this week with everything going on, but I do intend to carve out at least a lunch or breakfast (using your H idea, too!) for us this weekend.

Tell me what's going on with you, 2BN!

Hi Cards,
I am glad that you are starting to let go of some of the pieces as well. It seems like you and I have let go of our OM a iittle at a time. It's been tough for sure! My thoughts are not so much on the OM all the time as they were. Last week was tough and I thought of him alot, but now I see a change in what I am thinking about when he pops in my head.

This last step of changing the password on my email and the OM changing his password will be a really tough step for me!! Even the thought of it is scaring me right now! Even though we are not communicating, I can tell when he looks in my inbox and it gave me comfort to know that he still looks there. It's like I know he's still alive and I keep hanging on to this! When I change my password, that will no longer be!! I need encouragement to do this and already I feel like I can't! Any thoughts here?

I hope you and your husband make it to breakfast or lunch this weekend!

Hi 2BN-

I KNOW how hard it is to give up those little pieces. Regarding the email address & sites you have:

Quote

It's like I know he's still alive

OM & I were not sophisticated enough to know how to do all that stuff (a good thing!), but I have kept my OM name on IM and on the "friends" list of the site we met. I have not signed in to IM for weeks - much too painful to hear the tones, etc. I go to the site we met on regularly but he has never been on that site the same time as me since the final d-day. So, I have not seen any "evidence" that he is still alive. Despite him saying he will be there, I don't expect to see him ever. For me to take him off those lists is probably symbolically similar to what you are doing with the email passwords-eliminating any chance of bumping into each other or any sign of life, as you say.

Let me ask you this, 2BN, how many methods of contact with OM remain for you? I am assuming you have phone #'s, and other email addresses, right? I think our road is to slowly eliminate all those vehicles of possible contact. Maybe by defining how many of those pieces are left can help us knock them off, one by one. I know that I am blocked on OM home pc, but probably not on work pc. So in my mind emailing is not a reliable contact for me even if I would do it. My last for absolute connection is the cell phone #. I've thought of the time when I will tear up that number. It sounds so trivial, but I know the first step will be just trying to forget the number then stop having it close at hand. Piece by piece we will have the strength to do these things. Look at what you've done already. We WILL get to the point of GS feeling good about putting the memories behind us!

Cards - to answer your question about contacts. I still have his work phone #. I actually had only ever called this work # after D-Day out of deperation. I knew where he worked and asked to get his ext. number from the operator there. I never had his cell # (but I had a way to text his cell), nor did I have his home # (could look that up online). He primarily called me when we talked. Never me calling him. I have his work email address. And to add to this list...I found out his wife's IM s/n by looking it up through her email. I have checked to see if she is online at times to see any "away messages" that might tell me what may be going on. OM and I only IM'd a few times because he could not access IM at his work that easily.

Now that he deleted my contact info out of his address book in his email account, I'm assuming he got rid of all contacts for me, but obviously he does know my email address. I went ahead and deleted the contact info for him out of my address book in my email account, so the OM can see I did the same. I still have the information, but not in that account. OM would not know this though.

Oh, I thought of something else. I have saved on my favorites here another site that I found the OM posts on or looks on. I can tell when he has signed on to that site. He doesn't post very often.

OK I must sound like I am obsessed with wanting to know about the OM!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Like you said, we have to give up these things a little at a time, but it is still so very difficult!

Hi Ladies! I've been so busy at work, I'm behind on my reading and posting. Thank goodness for this site though, it has helped me so much in channeling my recovery. When I don't read and post, I start to feel kind of lost in the whole A thing.

A couple weeks ago, I was on a business trip in the Midwest. My goodness was that hard for me...harder than I imagined. It was in the Midwest I had met up with OM. I wasn't in the same city and I certainly didn't call him or anything...I was just triggering all week long. Sooooo glad that's over.

I kept e-mailing my husband and posting here on MB. It really helped. Got back from the trip, burned all the A momentos and contact info. It kinda hurt to do it, but I wanted to tell you that since it all burned, I've actually felt a whole lot better. No chance of ever seeing it again. Feels really good. Sounds like you guys are like standing on the edge of the pool wanting to dive in, but the water is cold and some might try to slowly step in so it doesn't shock you so much. Dive in. Get rid of that stuff. It's a cancer that held me back from healing. Owl was right about that.

And by the way, whomever said they just wanted to know OM is alive? They are both fine...alive and well. So, trying to keep tabs on them is just torturing yourselves. He's fine. Really. Happily married and living a good life. If he wasn't, he'd be calling you. My guess is that my OM doesn't even think about me any longer. Men get over things a whole lot faster than women. Any of this make you wonder why we are suffering so much on their behalf? It did me so I stopped.

I've had a few dreams lately of OM. Think my biz trip kind of stirred things up for me. They are gone again though and I'm glad.

Hey, the best thing I've found to combat all this? Having fun with Husband. No A talk, no EN talk. Just put it all aside and go have some fun. Every time we do that, I feel like a million bucks and it reminds me that I'm living my life and moving on.

All three of us are doing really well considering it's so early in recovery. Hope you continue to see the good in all that is happening!
Some ramblings from GS

PS - Cards, you had asked me earlier when I felt like I was out of the fog. 8 weeks was it for me. I drift sometimes back mentally, but as 2bNormal said...you'll go there when you take yourself there. In times of stress or boredom, your mind might take you there as kind of "self-medicating". You get kind of a rush, and so you kinda stay there. But, then bad feelings start up (missing him, pining, etc.). So, try not to let your mind take you there. It's totally your choice to do it. It's a conscience decision in my experience.

The lovely GS wrote:

Quote

Hey, the best thing I've found to combat all this? Having fun with Husband. No A talk, no EN talk. Just put it all aside and go have some fun. Every time we do that, I feel like a million bucks and it reminds me that I'm living my life and moving on.

Aaahhh, but herein lies my own private Joseph Heller moment(Catch-22)...

If I slack off, not addressing her EN that OM was meeting, we run the risk of being once again in stasis. But the major EN that was not being met was conversation/fun. BUT, does anyone see what I am getting at here? It looks great on the surface, but I want to make sure she keeps tabs on me and our M so that EN this time around are definitely being met. But if we cant talk about them...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

beavis,

trying desperately not to be a [censored]...

And the handsome and studly Beavis makes a good point.

I didn't mean to infer we should NEVER talk about EN's, A, etc. I actually meant that SOMETIMES it's good to just have fun with our spouse and brighten our spirits without serious talks about relationship. It's an investment in making us feel good about our H's, instead of OM.

GS

2BN-

OK, so looking at the list of contact stuff you've still got, my first question is this...what of those do you have memorized?

Start off by deleting/destroying those first...it's an easy first step because you're not 'losing' anything that way.

Next...why keep any info on his wife anymore? She was never part of your life/fantasy anyway, so next step would be to delete HER from your contact lists.

Now, as far as his work phone number...you never used it but once, and that was post d-day...so why keep it? I'd go ahead and get rid of that now. As far as where he posts at...time to clean up the favs box on your computer anyway! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Last, follow through with what I'd suggested on your thread...change your password, and have your husband contact OM/OMW to have his password changed.

I want to share with you what my wife and I discussed at the last contact with her OM. She finally understood that any part that she kept of him, she kept a part of herself from me. She realized that in those little pieces, she was still holding back from fully committing herself to our marriage, and to me. And she saw how much that hurt me, knowing that as well. And in her NC email to the OM (it wasn't MB standard, but it worked), she told HIM that.

You need to realize that now my friend. Each of these little pieces are parts of yourself that you're still hiding from your H, parts of you that you're still not committing to the M. You've made your choice to stay and work it out with your H...and he's made the choice to do the same with you. Now it's time to keep your promise to him. Don't keep your heart split in half between two places...that 'whiplash of the heart' is what's still keeping you from healing. Your heart still isn't whole yet, because you're still holding little pieces of it back.

Now...it's up to you to fulfill your promises. Its up to YOU to start that last bit of healing on your heart, your marriage, and your husband. Do it, and you'll really feel better. Again, like the deleting stuff before, it's all going to be so relieving that you won't believe it until you do it.

Do it now, friend.

Karegh - The only thing I have memorized are email addresses. I did delete those out of my contacts. If I threw away his work phone #, it still would be easy for me to get again. I don't plan on calling him however.

As far as his wife's s/n, I don't know why I look at it other than to see what they might be up to. Really no need to keep torturing myself there. But it is memorized in my head and easy to add and check if I wanted to. This is my problem - NO SELF CONTROL to stop checking things!!! I do know that his wife changed her email from reading her away messages, so I do not have her current email for my husband to contact her with a NC to her/her husband(OM) if we chose to do that.

I really feel that I still have this addiction to check things and I have no self control there! If I didn't sit at this computer at work all day, it would be much easier on me!

Thank you for sharing about what you and your wife discussed at the last contact of the OM. It does help me to see things. I left the email that the OM left in his inbox marked as unread, so he cannot tell that I looked at it. I guess the next step will be to tell my husband about this note the OM left and proceed from there. Still scared, but if I tell my husband then he can help me through this!

2BN-

I have not forgotten about your question regarding confiding in friends about my EA, just haven't had time to put a post togther. Will try later today!

Hi "OWL", glad you're back. I hope you are feeling better! I hope you got the best wishes that 2BN & I wrote here for you a few days ago.

2BN-

Regarding your question about telling friends. I confided in one close workplace friend. My closest friend is a friend of our whole family. Our whole family is best friends with their whole family - our twin daughters are best friends with their twin daughters, we are best friends as couples, etc. These are part of a whole network of school/church people, etc, etc. I have decided (& my H) agrees to not talk to them about it. My feeling is that there is no reason to talk to people about it unless there is some help they could offer. I would consider this W my "best friend" and I am sure some day I will talk to her about it, but not now. I do not have any close friends that have been in the situation we are in (that I know of!).

I think my H does not want to share it with anyone because I think it would continue to make him feel like he failed, was an inadequate H, etc, etc. I can certainly respect that. I understand the need for exposure if EA's/PA's continue, but don't see the value of it in our case.

When I talked to my work friend, I was in a situation where I just needed to talk about it. I was posting here, but needed to get it out somewhere else, too. This friend is MY friend and not in our normal circle of friends. She and I relate very well together and have shared about personal things for years. She was very supportive and shared the fact that she had had a PA during her 1st M. Anyway, it was helpful for me to talk to her and I don't regret it.

I also have to tell you, 2BN, about another "trigger" I forgot about when we were talking about the "little pieces" of OM that we still have. I have a cologne sample of OM scent that I placed in my sunglasses case. The scent wore into the material and everytime I put my sunglasses on (which is almost everytime I go outside!) I smell that scent! Talk about triggers! I definitely need to do something about that!

HOpe your weekend went well!

Cards, Thanks for sharing with me. I can understand your point about not telling your close friend in which the entire family is friends with your family. My husband feels the same way as your husband and does not wish others to know unless there is a reason in which they can help. At first I thought just the support and prayer of a friend would help, but that is a big burden of information for someone to carry that is close to you. Our close friends are "family" friends as well, so it would be difficult. I'm not sure I would ever tell anyone in the future.

I do understand how you felt about having to talk it out with someone. I really think MC helped me with that because I was able to tell my whole story to another person and get it all out. Have you and your husband pursued looking for a MC yet?

Wow, about your trigger with the cologne! I would definately consider tossing those sunglasses!

I hope you had a good weekend and were able to get out with your husband alone! My husband and I were able to go to breakfast but it was not as pleasant as it could have been. I'll update my weekend on my thread, so check over there! Let me know how your weekend went!

Cards-

I got the good wishes from you and 2B...and thank you both for them!!

My wife and I had a good weekend. We changed our plans at the last minute, and instead of brunch we went shopping and out for dinner on Friday nite. She found a sweet gift for me with an owl on it (not easy to do!), so she was VERY happy with that. I like it a lot...we've got it hanging in our back yard now.

My friend, I really do hope you start VERY SOON to eliminate these 'triggers' and 'rememberances' from your life. Honestly, I hope you can start to do what 2V has done, and begin seeing this through your husband's eyes. It is sooooo unfair to him for you to be holding onto these things...and it's sooo unfair to YOU as well!!! You're doing nothing but hurting yourself by doing so...you're not doing anyone any good by keeping them. It's a distraction from re-building your marriage, it's something that just causes the pain of losing the OM to linger on and on. And when your husband learns of these, it's going to be one more pain that he's going to have to work through as well.

Start NOW friend. Please. For your own sake, if you can't do it for anyone else.

Hi Owl-

Yes, I have a couple things yet to deal with regarding some memories, but I am really not obssessing any longer about OM. I have nothing on my pc that draws me to "check" on him or see if he's on. The only thing I see is his "game" name at the game site we met on, which I honestly don't even notice anymore since he has never come back to that site. He may have changed his name and is not even using the old one, I really don't know. By the way, my H knows the name is still on the list. OK, the sunglasses thing. The scent is saturated into the material of the case, all I can do is throw it out, which I really don't want to do because it was relatively expensive and I don't have another one. I did refer to it as a trigger, and sometimes it does trigger me, but most of the time not. The other things I have is a phone number & the conversations saved to disc, which have been put away.

I have no intention of pulling up those conversations and reading them. It does not even appeal to me right now. 2 or 3 weeks ago I believed that I would want to pull them up someday and read them. Right now I have no idea when, or even IF, I will do that. I'm genuinely starting to feel foolish about the relationship, and I think I would feel more so by reading those things. So, I do see progress in the fading away of these things. I think it's dying it's own natural death in my mind.

My focus HAS been my H and M and how to repair and restore it. We are taking it slowly. I am still putting a "face" on the "why's" of what I did. I am looking at the bigger picture of what my life was, and how my EA resulted from not just my H not meeting my EN's, but how I allowed myself to get lost in life and all its demands. I recognize that it is my responsibility to see when giving and giving and giving is detrimental to myself. I, no one else, am ultimately responsible for the care of myself. I took a mental "vacation" from my normal life during the span of the EA. Not just from my H, but from my kids, friends, church, everything. I pulled myself out of the ratrace and lived in a fantasy, somehow still managing to get through the day to day life. This experience has given me pause to re-evaluate not only my M, but also my whole life. It's quite unsettling, but I think ultimately it could be beneficial for me and my whole family.

So,in the scope of things, the little remembrances of OM are just a small piece of what's really going on in the big picture for me.

Sorry for the long reply, Owl, apparently I needed to verbalize some of these issues for myself!! Thank you for getting me thinking!!

Cards-

Sounds like you're really doing awesome, and I apologize if it seems that I've misunderstood you!!

The 'feeling foolish' about what happened is actually a good sign my friend. My wife has had to deal with that too...so I can sorta understand what you mean there.

On the game site...I can relate to that too, as a matter of fact. I can still see when my wife's OM is logged in when her and I play...she doesn't, nor does she care to. I admitted to her that I'd even 'seen him' in game the other day...I'd logged on one of my kid's characters, and he happened to be on one of his chars that I used to group with right where I came on at...I didn't say or do anything other than go to where I was headed, and didn't mention it to my wife until this weekend. No reason to bring it up. For her, he's totally in the past, and she completely wants him to remain there. So the fact that he's back in game doesn't really bother her at all...but does me somewhat. I'm still working on focusing more on now..but I'm getting better at it.

I'd just like to point out to both you and 2BN that I think that both of you have really done an awesome job in working to recover your marriages...both of you have come a long ways, and that says a lot about you. And I'd like to thank both of you for your support and encouragement when I've got MY down days...

Cards, I'm glad that you are not obessessing about the OM anymore. I see you making some great progress here! I know with me, having the passwords to each other's account was the biggest issue I was dealing with. It still gave me "contact" in a way and I was still drawn to it even though the communication had stopped.

I know you are not planning to read those IM conversations anymore, and trust me, I do know what it's like to not want to let them go. I'm not sure if you remember that I still had a piece of jewelry from the first OM and also a picture of the first OM and me when we were teenagers. I had these still in my possession in January after the D-Day of the 2nd OM! I could not get rid of these on my own even though I wasn't looking at them or really wanted them! I had to tell my husband of them and give them to him to throw away. I in no way thought that the first OM was something I wanted to go back to, but yet I still held onto these "things". It's the same for this last step I took with the email passwords. The only way I would give it up was by telling my husband and having him help me to rid of it. Please consider telling your husband soon about these "things" so you can release yourself from them. If you cannot throw them away yourself, consider handing them over to your husband to dispose of. It was the only way I could do it!! I just know the longer I held on to these "things", the harder it was for me to get rid of them. I just don't want to see you like me and hanging onto "things" for a really long time like I did with the jewelry and picture of the first OM.

I know you will get there Cards, just as I did. I know you are really working hard to work through all of this and to work on your M. I can see a change in your thinking since your very first post. I was just like you in that I pulled away from everything in my life to live the fantasy. It was time for me to let totally go of that fantasy and any temptations or thoughts of it. I know you will get there soon <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />!

Cards-

Just to add to 2BN's post...also think about future impacts as well. The longer you hang on to these things, the harder it's going to be on your husband when you DO tell him. And please don't even consider NOT telling him. This is all about re-building trust, and establishing your trustworthiness to him.

Well, OWL, I don't know about AWESOME, but thank you anyway! You didn't misunderstand me at all, I DO still have the OM thoughts but they are less intense and less frequent. I'm certain it would be BEST if I totally destroy what I have left, but I somehow think I'm using the knowledge of those things as a catalyst to change what was. Does that make sense?

My "progress" is due in large part to you and others here. Without the continued support of people replying and questioning, I would have been lost not knowing what to do or where to turn. It is a great mix of people here, some being blunt about what we need to hear and following the principles, but those of you that stick with us and listen are invaluable. It is so therapeutic to be able to converse with others in the same shoes.

That's great your W isn't bothered anymore by OM name, but I can certainly see why you would notice. When I have my games pulled up, my H pauses at the pc to see if OM is on. Of course at some point I did wish that he would show up, but I'm glad he didn't otherwise we would have had to ban that too! I have established some regular "friends" that I play with, so that has sort of acted to "replace" some things about the relationship with OM. But it definitely is CARDS ONLY!

Hope you continue to feel better!

GS wrote:

Quote

My guess is that my OM doesn't even think about me any longer. Men get over things a whole lot faster than women. Any of this make you wonder why we are suffering so much on their behalf? It did me so I stopped .....

Hey, the best thing I've found to combat all this? Having fun with Husband. No A talk, no EN talk. Just put it all aside and go have some fun. Every time we do that, I feel like a million bucks and it reminds me that I'm living my life and moving on.

GS, I know FOM never has a thought about me... just got copied on an e-mail from him providing his and his new SO's mailing address to a mutual friend (like I really needed to see that). So clearly, he came out of this horrible episode with nary a scratch. I didn't suffer on his behalf, and there was clearly no need to, that's for sure. Besides, I have plenty of suffering to do on my own.

I so admire how well you and beavis have been working through this. You especially, GS, are way ahead of me and I'm envious, considering your d-day and NC was more recent than mine.

I truly feel like I have no value. I've been overcome with self-loathing lately. Perhaps that's the reason I felt unloved a year ago; maybe I wasn't very lovable. After playing to that weakness and giving me a false sense of worth for a short time, FOM then moved on with his life with incredible ease.

But I never stopped loving my H, and for some reason, H says he still loves me. For the life of me, I can't figure out why. How do you get past the guilt? How do you get to the point of feeling like you have some worth? I can't seem to find it lately.

OK, you two! Am I speaking "fog-talk"?

Cards, I'm not sure if it's fog talk. I know you are trying to progress and move forward with your M. Letting go of the pieces even if you aren't looking at them is a step in the right direction. I KNOW it's hard!! I just went and looked through all my "hiding places" and made sure I deleted or physically threw away everything...email addresses, phone numbers that I found still hidden in other places. It's all gone and I feel great about it! Now a few weeks ago I wasn't where I'm at now, but I think that email from the OM on Friday woke me up to what needed to be done!

By the way, as I was "cleaning out", an email was in my account from the OM to my husband asking for forgiveness. This email was written shortly after my husband spoke to the OM this morning. It was the step I needed to take for me, my marriage and for the OM so he can move forward with his marriage as well.

Hi all!
Did anyone catch a thread by Lilybelle a few days ago that posted an article called "The Awakening"? It's beautiful. I've read it three times and it has helped me a lot with guilt and self-affirmation. Here it is:
The Awakening

GBH, I've been thinking of your questions all day. My H and I are doing great, but I have struggles too. During the first three months really, every time I thought of OM and the way our relationship ended, I shuddered and felt horrible. You see, he was married too and in the end (after pleading with me to run away with him) he couldn't leave his W after all. So, not only did I betray my H, I was an OW to a married man and I didn't even have the backbone to be the one to end our A. I truly am a bottom feeder on the totem pole around here. I've never really put that out there in total because it is very shameful to me. Sigh. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But GBH, I absolutely refuse to let three months of mistake define me for the rest of my life. I made a huge mistake, but I take my strength in making positives results from those mistakes:

1) I'm learning first to understand why I did what I did, and to change my life and perspective to prevent it from ever happening again.

2) I'm striving to understand how people who are married 70 years can die completely in love with their spouse.

3) I'm working with my H to significantly improve our marriage and to enjoy being married every day. Not because I have to, but because I want to to be married. Taking actions to make this happen, instead of expecting it to happen inherently on it own. Love IS a choice.

4) I'm investing energy in myself and my own happiness. I'm investing in friendships and getting more out of them. I'm trying to get more hobbies and outside interests.

5) I'm connecting with my children more and working to be a better mom.

In a sense, I'm trying to develop into someone that I can be proud of....I say to myself that on January 10th, 2005 I started to become someone that I am proud of. I didn't contact OM, I started working on my marriage and my parenting skills, I invested in my own happiness.....and I started working on forgiving myself for my mistakes. Yes, I made mistakes, but I've learned so much from them and I will be a better person in the end because I learned my lessons from the test of the fire.

Really, I think this is the key...to get to a place where you are a better, more knowledeable person after the A than before it. Become someone you are proud of, and other men's opinions will mean less and less.

And GBH - how can you possibly say you have no value? Of course you do!! I have read some of your posts, and I sense someone very intelligent and intuitive. And, you are striving for your PhD, right? I'm sure there is a lot about you that is wonderful.

Do NOT let OM's actions dictate your sense of self-worth. Women especially have a tendency to do this so often - where our sense of self-worth is a reflection of what a particular man thinks of us. Relationships don't work out for LOTS of other reasons other than whether you were lovable or a good person, etc. I don't know specifics for your situation, but perhaps your OM couldn't handle breaking up a M, maybe he had doubts he could be totally committed to one person, maybe he is self-centered and decided he liked Marilyn Monroe blonds...whatever! It isn't because you were less of a person that didn't deserve him. Separate your self-worth from his choices. You may be jealous of his new GF - stop yourself. Be happy he has moved on because you are too. Bitterness is toxic to you. You have the better deal....a long term marriage with a H who loves you.

And BTW, your H loves you because he knows everything about you and likes ALL of who you are. Not just the fantasy, lovey dovey stuff OM saw. That is true love...my H knows all my faults, including the biggest mistake of my life, and still loves me. Now who is the better man - OM or H? My H stood by me in the face of complete betrayal - I think that takes enormous strength and I admire him for it. You are a lucky woman to have found such an strong man, and you deserve his love.

So, this answer is windy and I'm sorry for that. My best advice is to get off that e-mail distribution list and find every way possible not to hear about OM, which I'm sure triggers bad feelings for you. NC really is good for you in the long run. And, separate your sense of self-worth from OM's actions. They really have zero to do with who you are.

Ask your H to make a list of the things he loves about you. And you do the same for him. Watch him for 24 hours and make some notes. Write them down here and post them. It feels good.

And...do fun things with him. It really helps affirm why you are married.

Hope this helps,
GS

PS - and if it makes you feel any better, I read that men do get over break-ups much faster than women. BUT, a year down the road is when they feel the regret. Women don't usually do that. So, by the time OM feels regret, you will be so over him! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wow, I spend the day being silly on other posts and come across my GS in hurt mode <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

the lovely GS wrote:

Quote

And BTW, your H loves you because he knows everything about you and likes ALL of who you are. Not just the fantasy, lovey dovey stuff OM saw. That is true love...my H knows all my faults, including the biggest mistake of my life, and still loves me. Now who is the better man - OM or H?

Awwww, GS, it IS the little faults, nuances and your mannerisms that define you, that only I am intimate with. It is what connects us together, to share in your idiosyncracies and vice versa. It is what defines mature love, not as exciting as romantic love, but a deeper, more soulful love that connects us on a higher level.

I stand by you because of my deep love and respect for you. You have been there for me as well. Do not sell yourself short at all. I cherish the moments that helped create our memories together and look forward to formulating new ones that enrich our lives together.

Quote

My H and I are doing great, but I have struggles too.

Quote

I truly am a bottom feeder on the totem pole around here. I've never really put that out there in total because it is very shameful to me. Sigh.

You are not a bottom feeder my love, you know how much I hate carp <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> seriuously, I know you have to work through your guilt, but dont let it define you for the rest of your life. I have been with you for almost 9000 days now, you say you had 90 days of misguided direction. 1% of our time together... Do you think we should let it define the next half of our lives together in a negative way?

My hope is it will define us for the better, we now see each other and appreciate each other in ways that were dormant, taken for granted and shoved aside.

Again, I stand by you GS, we are walking hand in hand down an exciting path together these days, full of understanding, communication, devotion and respect.

I love you with all my heart GS

beavis

Thank you GS for your post, it came at a good time for me! I am so happy for 2BN and her strength, and it is making me really examine what is holding me back from totally letting go. I think part of it is how my EA ended. I still have unanswered questions. He ended it, but left it hanging open. I would've much preferred a definite ending with honesty. I don't know why that matters, but it seems to. I know most here don't believe in "closure", but that is what I struggle with most.

I am thrilled that you and your H are on such a wonderful road together. Beavis is so in love with you and it is very uplifting to "see" you talk to each other. You have deep respect for one another, and it is evident that you two are falling in love all over again! It certainly would appear that it holds true that everything happens for a reason - even your EA..... so that you and Beavis would find each other again. I hope I find that silver lining for me and my H too.

Thanks Cards. I know you have struggled with the ending of your EA, and wanting closure. I totally understand those feelings.

If you look deep though, you know why he ended it. It came down to either you or his W. And, he chose his marriage. It's a good thing...painful, but good.

Try and take heart that he left it open because that made it easier for him than saying a final goodbye. Maybe he left it open because that didn't hurt so much. He cared for you, but loved his W. He was scared for his M and scared of getting caught. He's probably promised his W he won't contact you.

Try and be happy for him that he chose the right path in the end - that is what helped me. He just couldn't say goodbye to you, probably because he cared for you. The price was just too high. It would be for you too.

I know you would have liked a nice goodbye. I had a nice goodbye, still felt horrible. Two weeks later, he called me to say he missed me and couldn't say goodbye. Then, two days later called me to say a very firm goodbye....and his wife piped in towards the end of the call to throw her two cents in. Ugh.

Really....goodbyes in these situations never feel right. I had two (a nice one and a not-so-nice one). Neither one felt very good.

Hope some of these thoughts help a little. I know it hurts. It gets better with time, especially after you have really closed on the door on OM. Remember that just like Beavis, your H loves you very much and is a good man.
GS

{{{GS and beavis}}} Thanks. You two are awesome. I printed both your posts our so I can read them when I get down.

BTW, masters, not PhD... I'm a little smart, but not to that degree (so to speak)!!

Thanks, GS. I have analyzed it to death, and I have thought of ALL those things which are right and logical. I think the question is about ME. Why will I not allow myself to accept those reasons and move forward? I'm guessing it has to do with my R with my H. Unlike 2BN, my EA was relatively short. My H doesn't view the situation as a "serious" A, or that he was lied to and deceived. There is some but he simply has moved on from it. I think this is partly where my problem is. I have viewed this experience as much "larger" than he has. I have tried to explain this, but I don't know that he understands it (or wants to). Maybe he is in denial. So, whereas I think our M is in a crisis, he may believe it to be less urgent to repair. I see where things are returning to where they were before. Where Beavis, & Owl, & 2BN's H saw the wake-up call, my H is not.

I DO think our M is in a somewhat better place than it was before the EA. We have had some good communication, so I do see some improvement with relating to each other. I do believe we are BOTH trying in this area, and we are taking the time to be together and talk. Maybe I'm just being impatient and need to give it time.

Cards-

Please take this as an observation, not as a 2x4. Wanting 'closure' is still looking back, not looking forward. GS is on the money with what she says about the end of your A, my friend...at least in my guess too.

Realize this...that there is no 'good way' to end an A. These almost never end in any way that all parties walk away from feeling like it's a done deal. It just doesn't happen. But the best way to deal with that feeling is to put your focus back on your M, and not let yourself dwell on how it ended.

I'll be honest...I do think that there's still a little fog in your eyes. It's not enough to totally cloud your vision, but it IS still obscuring your view of your next steps in moving forward with your H. The fact that you can ask that question speaks volumes of how far you've come though.

Trust the advice of those that have been where you are, or have loved someone who's been in your position. Keep your focus on your goal, and avoid looking over your shoulder. Talk with your husband about this need for closure too...take a look at the advice I gave Sys on his thread about how to deal with his wife. Talking about your feelings is the BEST way to begin re-investing yourself in your husband. Maybe see if he can read Sys's thread, or this thread and see some of the suggestions we've all made if he's not comfortable with talking about feelings.

Keep your chin up, and take a look at those next steps you need to take to move forward friend!

Cards, I wanted to add to what Owl said about closure and how you "feel" you need it. I had "felt" like I needed it as well and had several other contacts with the OM (as you know) after D-day. Yes, I did find out some things and I'm not sure how helpful it was now that I look back. It kept my focus so it wasn't 100% on my M. I was still looking back and wanting to know "things". As I look back and think of the whole thing after D-Day, there was really no "good closure". There was no "perfect good-bye". And there never will be! Our focus should be that we and the OM in our lives made the "right choice" to end the "A" and feel good that we made "that choice" for us and our "M's".

I wanted to add too that it is important for your H to realize how large this EA was for you even though it was a short EA. This is where the few sessions in MC really helped my H realize this. Also we read the book "Torn Asunder" together and it opened his eyes to it as well. Even last night as I was telling my husband all the "traces" of the OM that I had hidden and had to rid of, he was even realizing how BIG this was to me. Somehow you will have to find a way to communicate that to your H whether through counseling or another way.

Keep moving forward Cards - You really are progressing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

My H doesn't view the situation as a "serious" A, or that he was lied to and deceived. There is some but he simply has moved on from it. I think this is partly where my problem is. I have viewed this experience as much "larger" than he has. I have tried to explain this, but I don't know that he understands it (or wants to). Maybe he is in denial. So, whereas I think our M is in a crisis, he may believe it to be less urgent to repair. I see where things are returning to where they were before. Where Beavis, & Owl, & 2BN's H saw the wake-up call, my H is not.

I DO think our M is in a somewhat better place than it was before the EA. We have had some good communication, so I do see some improvement with relating to each other. I do believe we are BOTH trying in this area, and we are taking the time to be together and talk. Maybe I'm just being impatient and need to give it time.

Cards-

Reading this, my first thought is that its likely that your husband IS somewhat in denial...or in the next phase, which is minimzing. He wants to make it into something less than it is...because he doesn't really want to face how big it was.

The only way I can imagine to deal with this would be for YOU to show him how big it is to YOU. He may not see this in the same scale as you do...fine...but he should still understand how big this is to you...which then makes it into something bigger for the BOTH of you.

Tell him how serious it was/is. If I remember, you're not doing MC, as he doesn't see the need. Let him know that YOU need the MC...that YOU need to get this dealt with, even if he's fine with it. And in MC, tell the counselor how big this was/is to you.

If he refuses to go to MC...make him understand how damaging this whole thing was to YOU...and that you won't take no for an answer. Working on your marriage requires both parties to work on it...and if he keeps minimizing and not doing his part, he's not helping YOU either.

There was no chance to minimize my situation, no way that it could have been kept small. When he bought her plane tickets to fly away and live with him, that ensured that the whole thing was escalated to a point where there was no turning back or burying my head in the sand. You can't minimze the destruction of a family. In fact, it was my wife who minimzed things at the time, by trying to make it seem like we'd all just be some kind of 'extended family' thing.

It sounds to me like your husband needs someone from outside of the marriage to show him how serious this really is. That's why I suggest MC...because that's a neutral, third-party 'expert'...and if HE shows it was serious, maybe your husband can take it that way too.

There is one other thing to consider...what do you do if he never does 'get it'? What needs is he not fulfilling due to this behavior? What could the long term results be? Does he realize that? TALKING is the key to all of this...you note that you're communicating better now...time to make use of that.

Just my thoughts friend...

I don't want it to sound like I am stuck in the EA, because I am not. It is over! But I do occasionally think of contact with OM just for the closure - no other reason. What stops me from doing that is playing out the conversation in my head. I'm sure it would be exactly what you all say it would be-disappointing at best. I do not have thoughts of starting back up, rather the thoughts are about the ending. So, yes, there still may be a cloud of fog surrounding this issue for me.

I think you are right, 2BN & Owl, I need to get my H to accept what has happened. I think I will try to get him to read some of the threads on here. Thanks for your suggestions!

Cards-

I don't know if I've ever posted this thread here before, so this may be info you've already got. Or not. This my story from the LS website...have him take a look at it if you think it might help. Ask him if what I've felt/dealt with is anything similar to how he's felt on the whole thing. Suggest that he look for Sys's thread here and over there as well..and have him read 2B's thread as well.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t49539/

He may be disregarding how damaging this is because of the 'fantasy' aspect of it all...I've known a number of people who felt that this kind of thing isn't a 'real affair'...whatever that is. Just because you weren't physical with your OM doesn't minimize what happened...and while this may make you feel bad to admit to him, you might consider letting your husband know what you were feeling, and what might have happened had you met with your OM in person. I don't know much about the content of your conversations with the OM, but it might make more impact on your H if you also make sure that he understood all of what was discussed...and if there was a sexual connotation to anything in your R with the OM as well.

I don't know how much of this pertains, or for sure that it will make a difference. I'm also a little concerned that he may take this as you 'rubbing his nose in it'...also not a good thing. Give some serious thought in how to deal with this, and bounce it off of a qualified counselor if you can.

Good luck friend.

Quote

But I do occasionally think of contact with OM just for the closure - no other reason.

Cards - These were my reasons for the continued contact with the OM. I did not desire going back to the EA, and I do realize that is not your desire as well. BUT, the contact still left me in turmoil and still wanting to know more things. Even that last email from the OM about his son did not "fufill" everything for me for closure. There was still no really "perfect" good-bye or ending with this last information given to me. I have to let him go and trust that God will take care of him and his family.

What is it from the OM that you feel you need closure on? Think about it and think if it will really help you to move on in your M.

Owl-

Quote

what do you do if he never does 'get it'? What needs is he not fulfilling due to this behavior? What could the long term results be?

Yes, this is exactly my fear, Owl. Probably why I am unable to completely let go of that person that was filling a need - I may not be trusting that H will be able to do that.

Yes, I will direct him to your thread. Maybe some of it will hit home with him. He can read it and absorb it alone without me talking about it. Thank you.

Same advice I'd given you earlier, my friend. TELL him that you've got that worry. Talk with him about those needs, talk about how they can be met, and work with him to figure out how he can meet them. Make sure he understands how important meeting those needs are...how critical this kind of maintenance is to a marriage.

Cards and 2BN-

Thought I'd ask the two of you a question, if you don't mind.

Try to put yourself in my wife's position for a moment. We're coming up on a year past d-day...right now was when her A was just getting serious. Looking back, I don't think that it was really an EA as long as she'd thought...at first, she was convinced it was months, but after the fog started to lift, it looked more like 6-8 weeks. But I've still got the cell phone records from back then, and it looks to me like it was closer to just a few weeks (maybe 4) based on that.

She's past the A, over the OM. Really regrets that it ever happened. Wants to let it go completely and totally...

We're doing very well together. Lots of love and support, things between her and I are as good as they've ever been.

So, the question. Today was a 'trigger day'. It was a year ago today that she crossed a line that she shouldn't have....a year ago today, she called the OM for the first time. (at least according to the cell phone records) It was while I was out at the store for something, and sadly enough, she was on the phone with me when he tried calling her...she called him back as soon as our conversation ended...and then called ME right back after that.

I know this from the phone records. Haven't talked with her about it at all. And my question is, should I? It was a trigger this morning when I thought about it based on the date, and I've been down since then. But I can't see where it would do much good to talk with her about it, since there's really nothing for her to do. Would you want your husband to talk to you about this? Or not? Thoughts?

Owl-

If I understand you correctly, you have not ever brought up this discovery with her, right? I think it's a tough question because probably your W does not want to go back to talking about this piece that is a year old. BUT, you are still being hurt by it. The answer may be different for different people, but knowing how hurt you have been by hidden details I think it warrants you bringing it up. You have addressed this over & over to us about being honest about everything and communicating your feelings. Since this issue has continued to be a source of pain for you, it makes sense that you ask the question, even though she may not receive the discussion well. Are you afraid of her reaction at bringing it up?

I am intrigued, though, that you would remember this date. Do you remember a lot of the dates relating to the EA?

I am wondering, OWL, what keeps YOU from not letting the EA go? I am asking because, as you know, I am really searching to answer these same questions for myself.

I continue to mull over the issues discussed here over the last couple days regarding my situation. I somewhat feel like a complainer - on the one hand happy that my H is able to let the EA go & not dwell on it; but then whining that he doesn't realize how big a deal it is. More thought needed on this!!!

Owl, I've read your question and have been thinking about how I would feel in that situation. My husband and I have talked about many things like this, but mostly it's me bringing it up to him. I certainly would have no problem if my husband would mention this to me and just told me he was having a down day because of the trigger. It seems like the reason you want to bring this up is for "you" and not to be mad or angry at her. You know and realize she is OVER the A, and there is no question regarding that.

Have you never gone over those phone records with her at all? Or is it just this particular day you never talked about? I know that my husband still has the phone records from calls I made to the first OM. I didn't have any phone records to trace with the 2nd OM because he mostly called me. Even after awhile with the first OM, we hid things by using phone cards. But, we did have a similar situation to which you described. My husband was out on a business trip and he called me in the morning before I left for work. When he called me I was on the line with the 2nd OM, but we have call waiting and I put the OM on hold while I spoke with my husband and then returned back to the OM. This was a trigger in itself on that very day to my husband, but a trigger for the first OM. My husband KNEW my voice did not seem right and that I seemed to want him off the phone fast. My husband had no clue about OM # 2 at the time. We have talked about this since D-Day and I am pretty sure he is the one that brought it up.

I honestly feel that if you evaluate your reasons for wanting to talk to your wife about this and talk about it in a non-threatening way, it should be ok. Maybe just tell her you were looking over the phone records and you were feeling down by it. My husband and I talked about all the phone calls to the OM, but I also volunteered the information to him. However, if he were to ask me of anything he wasn't sure of or bothered him still, I know I would be ok with it.

Hope this helps some. If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer.

I just now read through Card's response and had one of the same questions as Cards. You seem to remember alot of dates from the EA. My husband doesn't really recall dates. I had even asked when D-Day was and he could not tell me a date. He knew in general it was close to Christmas but no date came to his mind. It's hard for me to understand that part of which you hold on to dates and remembrances, but I guess it does affect each BS differently.

Cards-

Well, I have to say that part of the reason I've had trouble letting go of the EA is because it's very hard for me to forget most things. Its just the way my mind works.

I do remember dates, events, etc... associated with the EA. And now that we've reached that 'one year mark', it's a little more in my mind now than it had been for a while. My expectations are that it will likely fade quite a bit once this next month has come and gone.

My wife knows that we're 'in that time frame', but not much more than that. She knows of a few events that are coming up that will be trigger points for me, such as Mother's Day and a personal event that my son has going next week. But as far as this phone call thing goes, I've not talked with her about it. But, after giving it a little more thought, it's not a huge thing, and I really just need to drop the darned thing.

I still have trouble focusing on now and the future sometimes, just as you do my friend. It's a bad habit of mine to keep reviewing the past, and it's one that I AM trying to change.

In your case, I would think that your biggest concern at this point is that if your husband doesn't take this seriously, that he won't make the needed changes in your marriage to make things work out for you both. You ARE glad that he's not as hurt by this as he could be, but at the same time scared that it could happen again...or even just that things will go back to what they were before the EA.

Talk with him about that. Let him know that these are your fears.

Thanks for the thoughts friend.

Owl, I replied above, but have another thought since you now posted a reply to Cards. If you NEVER talked about the phone calls, whether it's just this one or all of them, I don't think it's unreasonable to bring it up to your wife. As you stated, you are in a bad "period" right now with reaching that one year mark and alot of triggers are occurring for you. You have always "stressed" communication to us with our spouses and if this is really bothering you then communication is necessary. Just my thoughts here...

I appreciate all the replies back friends. And the more I've thought about this 'trigger', the less stressed I'm feeling about it. This morning, I started reliving d-day in mind while I was getting ready for work, and thinking about this phone call thing. I posted here, debating on whether or not I should discuss this with my wife. But after giving it a bit, I'm feeling better about things, and gotten it back into perspective. It's in the past. It's done, and it's nothing to worry about now.

So, with that said, I may mention it in passing tonite when my wife and I sit down over a cup of coffee after the kids go to bed. Just let her know that it crossed my mind, but that I didn't let it eat at me all day or anything. And make sure she knows how much I love and appreciate the way things are now between us. (BTW, Cardsonly....my wife and I now spend almost every evening playing card games with each other online towards the end of the night...it's become more and more our game of choice lately!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm going to work harder on letting the whole thing go too. Its in the past, and my life is sooo much better now than then.

Thank you both for your insights.

Owl, glad to hear that you worked through this and discovered it wasn't as important as you thought.

I'm having trouble with still thinking "back" these last couple of days since everything was revealed to my husband. I don't want to go back, but my mind still thinks there occasionally. Something to look forward to though...my husband and I were asked to go to a marriage seminar training that is a day long next month. Our church is having this seminar to try to use "key couples" in our church to have this foundation. Once we are trained, we can use this information learned to help other couples that may come to us. I haven't said this in the past, but my husband has a position at our church, so we are considered "key" to the church. At first I didn't think it was a good idea for my husband and I, but as I looked into a bit, I think it will be good for us and we will learn much for our own marriage.

Cards, how have you been lately? Did you and you husband ever get some alone time last weekend?

2BN-

I'm wondering how you're feeling these last few days after the contacts with the OM. You said you were thinking "back". Do you feel a state of withdrawal again? I would think all of that would have taken quite an emotional toll.

The marriage training sounds great, as you two are both committed to being on the right track. It can only help you at this point.

I have to admit to feeling a bit discouraged lately with regards to my situation. I am still pondering the next steps to take, but have backed off on "thinking" about it so much in the last couple days. I think it's wise that I continue to take things slowly because I do think OM thoughts are less and less frequent, which helps me see more clearly.

Owl, I've been thinking lots about whether or not to share more about the EA with H. In one sense I WANT to tell ALL the details so H understands the depth of it and I would be free of them (the details), but I can't believe that "forcing" him to hear all the details would really be productive. I also wonder, as time goes on, if I will have less and less of a need to cleanse myself of the details anyway. Maybe that's just another way of "self-medicating" by bringing up OM? What do you think? I know that if things were reversed, I would want to hear it all, but he's just not interested.

You make a good point about the fact that in your case there was no gray area in what was happening next - your W was taking major steps to further the R with OM. My H can FEEL secure in the fact that nothing more than chatting was happening in my case. Is it really necessary for me to tell him that something beyond that might have happened? What good would that do? At this point I am going to focus on going forward with H and not revisiting the past, which is what he wants to do.

We have talked about the EN's and how to prevent a recurrence, and I was even so honest as to say that I would never INTEND for it to happen again - then again explaining that we have to find out WHY I went down that path in the first place. I have learned so much about myself and human nature by all the reading and discussing, that I feel much more informed about what safeguards to have in place. But I recognize that a strong and honest M is the first safeguard.

Owl, did you ever bring up the phone calls with your W? Just wondering.

Cards-

I guess I'd have to revise my stance in that if your husband is comfortable in knowing you and trusting that it won't happen again, AND...you are comfortable and confidant that you're both taking the needed steps to improve your M and make sure that you're both going to be happy together moving forward, I'd agree with you that bringing up details when your husband doesn't want/need them would serve no real purpose, but could be damaging. Just don't ever fall into the 'excuse mode' of not revealing something that your husband SHOULD know because you don't want to hurt him. It's very easy for someone to use that to justify hiding something, which is why I caution you about that.

No, I didn't mention the call thing to my wife. Basically, I'd come to the conclusion that it was just a minor thing, and I should drop it.

Yesterday my wife had a doctor's appt, to change her meds, and for a check up. During that, she talked with him about our situation (told him how well we're doing now), and discussed some issues we're dealing with with our daughter. This led into a discussion with me at home about how relationships work (part of the daughter issue has to do with relationships)...that also led into a mention of the EA. At one point, she looked at me and told me "I loved [OM]...it wasn't just an infatuation." (At the time of the EA, I'd told her that this is what it was).

She said this to re-inforce to me that she didn't make any of her choices then arbitrarily, or on a whim. That she'd risked our M for something that was very important to her. She didn't mean to hurt me by saying that, and hadn't really thought about how it would make me feel.

We've talked a bit more since, and she knows and can understand how I've felt hearing that. I told her that I guess I'd dealt with the whole thing by just believing that it couldn't have been more than an infatuation...

At any rate, I hate feeling like this...I know how good we're doing NOW...but it's hard to accept that she felt what she did for someone else.

Just venting I guess, ya'll. Sorry.

Cards, Yes I have had some withdrawal again. My emotions have been going back and forth all week. I do feel good about this final step, but it has definately been like ripping something final out of me. In fact this morning, I wished that I could talk to the OM. I won't and am not planning to, but it's been a difficult week emotionally for me. Little things hit me...for example I have been having to drive my youngest daugther to school the last few days and she likes to listen to country music and I only listen to Christian music. I can't take the "love" lyrics of the country music songs she has been listening to. It makes my thoughts turn to the OM instead of my H. I don't want to be this way, but that's just where my thoughts head to when I hear lyrics like that. The OM and I never even talked of country music and I know he didn't listen to it, so it's strange the lyrics make my thoughts go to him

My husband has been great in that he has been letting me talk out alot of things regarding the OM. This has really helped me when we have these conversations as I have told him some details of conversations with the OM that I have never told him before. He tries to help me see things for what they are/were. I had printed out the email (for my husband to read) the OM sent my husband asking for forgiveness and a few other things. When I read that email, it was hard for me because it just reminds me of how the OM writes and how he chooses his words when he writes. My husband's view is different in that he feels the OM knows what to write, but feels his walk with God does not reflect what he writes. I feel differently, but maybe that's still my "fog" for how I view the OM. I'm probably just rambling here...but...you can get an idea of what my husband and I have discussed this week.

Cards I'm just curious here...your husband only thinks the EA was nothing more that chatting, but there is more to it that he doesn't know?? If this is the case, I would seriously consider telling him the depth of it so he can understand. You don't have to specifically give him all the details, but only share what he would want to hear. I am not sure I agree with you Owl on this one. Doesn't Card's H need to know the depth of the EA so he can understand how it affected Cards and their M? If my husband thought it was only chatting with the OM, I know he would be viewing the EA much differently that he does.

Owl

Quote

Just don't ever fall into the 'excuse mode' of not revealing something that your husband SHOULD know because you don't want to hurt him. It's very easy for someone to use that to justify hiding something,

What things SHOULD my H know? I have told him everything he has asked, and things he hasn't asked. How do I decide what he should know? Are you talking about divulging facts or feelings? I have not tried to "protect" him, because I truly believe in being honest. I have always been that way. If anything, I may be too honest sometimes. He does know that there was a sexual attraction from a couple conversations that he read, if that's what you are referring to.

Quote

she looked at me and told me "I loved [OM]...it wasn't just an infatuation."

I think it's very difficult to define and quantify love and infatuation, and all the feelings associated. We all internalize differently and it's hard to separate the intellect and the emotion. For me, I KNOW that I never loved OM in a truly deep sense, and I know intellectually that love has to grow out of being together, etc, etc, etc. BUT, you will NEVER convince me that I didn't feel in love with him. Your W recognizes that the feelings she had were REAL feelings and she wants you to know that and not minimize them (hmmm, who does THAT sound like?).

Quote

I guess I'd dealt with the whole thing by just believing that it couldn't have been more than an infatuation.

I do think the term "infatuation" has a sort of minimizing connotation, sort of like "puppy love". Maybe it is not important to put a label on it. You both know the impact that the EA had. You both know how strongly she felt about him at one point. You both know how much you love each other NOW.

The safety and trust of the M was broken by her feelings for someone else, even if only for a few weeks. I have to think my H is feeling the same as you, even if he can't express it. Try to think of Beavis' observation. They've been together 9000 days, there were some wrong decisions made for 90 days. Keep it in perspective and in the big picture. That's what I'm trying to do as well!

Quote

What things SHOULD my H know? I have told him everything he has asked, and things he hasn't asked. How do I decide what he should know? Are you talking about divulging facts or feelings? I have not tried to "protect" him, because I truly believe in being honest. I have always been that way. If anything, I may be too honest sometimes. He does know that there was a sexual attraction from a couple conversations that he read, if that's what you are referring to.

I do mean feelings, facts, etc... like what you mention below:

Quote

BUT, you will NEVER convince me that I didn't feel in love with him. Your W recognizes that the feelings she had were REAL feelings and she wants you to know that and not minimize them (hmmm, who does THAT sound like?).

Does your husband know this?? It was exactly this kind of comment that made me understand how serious our situtation was...it is hard for me to imagine NOT taking what happened seriously in light of that kind of statement.

I am not sure that 'infatuation' is the right word to describe what I've thought my wife felt for her OM. I guess what I've meant is that she was in love with the 'picture' of the OM that she'd built up over the course of the IM's and calls. That she'd never known enough of him to truly love him, because all she'd seen were the parts of himself that he let her see, and that the limitations of talking online and on the phone do prevent you from knowing, ergo loving, someone as completely as you would someone you've been with in person for a long time.

And I agree with Beavis's observation...and that's exactly what I'm trying to focus on as well. We've had a great past (almost) a year...and THAT is what I need to keep in mind.

Quote

I do mean feelings, facts, etc... like what you mention below:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUT, you will NEVER convince me that I didn't feel in love with him. Your W recognizes that the feelings she had were REAL feelings and she wants you to know that and not minimize them (hmmm, who does THAT sound like?).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does your husband know this?? It was exactly this kind of comment that made me understand how serious our situtation was...it is hard for me to imagine NOT taking what happened seriously in light of that kind of statement.

I have to agree here with Owl. Cards, does your H know what your "feelings" were toward the OM? I never outright told my husband that I "loved" the OM, but from what I communicated to my husband about what happened, I am positive he knows it and the seriousness of what happened and that I had "love" feelings for the OM. It's been interesting in that there were periods where my husband wouldn't let me talk much about the A and now more recently since "everything" is out, he will let me talk about it.

2BN & Owl

Quote

does your H know what your "feelings" were toward the OM? I never outright told my husband that I "loved" the OM, but from what I communicated to my husband about what happened, I am positive he knows it and the seriousness of what happened and that I had "love" feelings for the OM.

Actually, yes, early on we did talk about the fact that I felt that new "in-love" feeling. In fact, every time he questioned why I was still in withdrawal I would have to point out the strong feelings I had. I never said, either, that I loved OM, but I did say it felt like falling in love. Maybe he is just not "hearing" me, or, realizing the seriousness. I just don't know. So, maybe I'm back to what Owl suggested and have him hear it from a MC or reading some threads.

It is interesting, 2BN, that your H now is more open to talking about OM. Maybe some kind of defense mechanism that earlier on he didn't feel secure enough about you to hear about it? Now that he really believes you are back in the M maybe he's not afraid to hear it and/or for you to talk about it? Owl, can you speak to going through "stages" like this?

Well, I can't say that I personally went through stages like this, but I've seen others that do. In my case, once we'd gotten to the point where she DIDN'T fly, I was willing to listen to anything pretty much. I wouldn't/didn't always AGREE with her view (remember, fog talk at it's finest here), but I was willing to listen. It also made sense for me to do my best to understand where she was coming from, and what they're R was, so that I could do my best to help HER recover from it. Even when we were seriously working towards seperation, I was willing to do my best to sit and listen to her talk about what went on.

In our case, at first we were both willing to talk. Then, after we began to reconcile, we've really been to the point where we'll only bring it up if something else causes us to think of it.

My guess is that at first, your husband was dealing with his own pain and shock over the whole thing, so wasn't able to deal with or think about YOUR pain as much...but now that the 'crisis' is over, he's able to help YOU too. I've always reacted the other way...I deal with the crisis first, THEN worry about my own issues.

In my case, there was no doubt of her feelings for him...the IM's that I logged contained NUMEROUS "I love you"'s from both of them...and when I confronted her about him, she told me then that she loved him. Again, it's hard to deny how serious something is when you're faced with that, combined with her accepting plane tickets to go live with him.

We just had a good phone conversation over my lunch break. We both re-affirmed that how she felt for him then does not change how she feels about me, or us, now. She understands how I felt. She also knows how I feel about her too, which is a good thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cards and 2B-

I think that the biggest thing that your husbands need in order to deal with what you've been through is to know and understand exactly what went on, how you felt, and how you feel now. They can't forgive what they don't know or understand. In my case, I saw the IM exchange for the last 5 days of the A...I saw first hand what they talked about, and what they shared with each other. My wife made it very clear to me when we tried to talk on d-day what she felt, and what had been going on. So, my choice to forgive was based on full knowledge of what I was forgiving. And through counseling, we both managed to forgive each other for the events leading up to, during, and after the A.

Does this provide any insight friends?

I just thought of something else. In our early talks after d-day and after he had read some of our IM conversations, my H did make the comment that he believed that if the EA had continued it would have led to more and possibly a meeting. So......he did get it, at least initially.

Owl - you were brave to look at your W's IM's. My husband did not want to see specifically what the conversations were between the OM and I. He just couldn't handle it. He had the opportunity to look at whatever he wanted whenever he made me delete the 1000's of emails, but he chose not to. I have tried to tell him in "general" some of the content, but not specific details. One of the conversations I had with my H this week was about conversations the OM and I had about "plans" with being married and how we tried to think of different situations and where we would live. I think my husband definately realized that if I was thinking that, then I was thinking I would have divorced him for sure! Soooo glad it didn't get to that point!

Cards - My husband and I talked alot when the A first came out and then he went through that period of where he heard enough....but remember he thought all communications had ended when that happened. I think now he realizes that I do need to sometimes talk about it and work through my thoughts in order for us to work on our marriage. He has really been supportive of this this week. It seems as if your H did get what the EA was since he made the comment that you would possibly have tried to get together with the OM if it continued. He may just be tired of it all, as my husband goes through that and did go through that. My H wants us to have normalcy again.

Hope you both have a great weekend! It's prom weekend (tonight) for my oldest daughter and things are going to be busy here soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2B-

I saw them on the morning of d-day...it was how I 'discovered' the A. I knew that they were close...I suspected something may have been just really getting started...I had no idea how quickly things had happened. I wasn't able to read through them that morning, really just the first few lines or so. It was enough to tell me how bad it was...and so I confronted my wife with them. It took me about 2 or 3 months before I could get to finally read all of them. These were the IM's from the last 5 days or so of the A, and were VERY painful for me to bear. But I really felt that I needed to read them, to know exactly what it was that they were discussing and planning and feeling...so that I could understand WHAT and WHY everything happened.

The content sounds similar to what your husband saw as well...they were just getting to the point where they were trying to figure out how this would all work. They were also just planning on how/when to meet in person as well.

I'm really worried about how I'm going to deal with the next few weeks. So many memories of everything keep popping up because of events with the kids and all. There are a few things that are about to happen that my wife had talked with her OM about sharing with him...and it's hard for me to 'forget' that she had wanted to (and had planned to when she was planning on leaving) share these events with him far more than she wanted to with me. One of them is later this week, the other this coming up weekend. Luckily, we've got counseling again this Friday...I'm hoping that we'll be able to go in there and brag about how well we've handled this.

Right now, I'm trying to stay focused on how things are going for us NOW...and to stay out of the memories of then. Hopefully that will help me deal with this as we move forward.

Hope the both of you had a good weekend...very very busy one here too. Two teens in prom on Sat, and a b-day yesterday for the younger set.

How are you, all my friends? How was your weekend?

We had another busy weekend, but my H shocked me this morning when HE asked that we start back up with talking every night (we had made a concerted effort a while back, but since soccer season has started our evenings have been crazy!). This coming from the guy who I practically had to tie down to a chair to have more than a 5 minute conversation with. Oh, did I ever mention that my H is ADD? Anyway, I looked at him questioningly and he said he feels like we need to keep going forward and that we haven't been talking enough. I asked him if it feels like it did before the EA and he said it's not as bad as that, but wants it to be better. I have ALWAYS initiated these types of discussions, so I am pleasantly surprised to even hear this from him.

I just read Sys post from today. I can identify with him in that we, too, are working towards "liking" each other. We had gotten too far apart, and there wasn't much connection at all. I mentioned the ADD. My H has many wonderful qualities, but there has been quite a bit of chaos in our lives, too, in part due to some of his traits. I know that he feels responsible for causing a lot of it in the past, and my EA makes me more "human" to him. I think he sees it that my "mistake" has somehow made us more "equal" in our humanness. Isn't that strange?

Oh well, just my observations of the day. I am feeling more relaxed about the situation today, and accepting that this will take time.

OM still enters my brain, and I am still trying to connect why and when, but the memories are fading. I also identified another trigger I had not really been aware of. When I first began talking to OM last fall, it was right when we were finishing our basement. In fact, I remember talking to OM while the cabinet installer was at our house and when our furniture was delivered. From that point on whenever I was down there watching TV I remember watching the clock for when we would meet online. I know that I have avoided being down there and watching TV with the kids for the last few weeks, but I thought it was that I just wasn't interested in TV anymore. It is amazing that our minds can link all those things together and create such havoc!

Owl - Must have been VERY hard for you to 'discover' the A with the IM's. I often think of that with the OM's W when she saw our emails and discovered the A having no clue anything was going on prior to that.

Quote

Right now, I'm trying to stay focused on how things are going for us NOW...and to stay out of the memories of then. Hopefully that will help me deal with this as we move forward.

This is a good focus - to focus on the NOW instead of these memories that are tough for you right now. Are these memories tough for your W as well?

I had a really tough weekend, well mostly yesterday was tough. My husband had pressed me for some details of the A that I had not wanted to share previously and it made for a tough day. We are working through it though.

I never did tell my H about that old email account that the OM used for 2 weeks (back in Sept.) in which there are some old emails of mine. The OM had used the same password as the newer email account, so that is how I had looked at it. The OM has no idea that I would have looked there. I have not looked at it anymore, and I am certain the OM has long forgotten of that account. I have just made a promise to myself to not look there since it does not belong to me. I had thought about telling my H of it so he can look at the emails. It was really the very start of the A and the emails show us going back and forth with struggling to stop the A. Any suggestions on this Owl? (maybe I should take this over to my thread?)

Cards, That is great news that your H wants to start back with talking every evening! It's good that he recognizes that you both need this.

Cards, I still have triggers and thoughts like you. I'm hoping over time it become fewer and fewer! I keep thinking after we pass a year of when the A ended (I know that's a long time!) that the past year will be only the memories of my H and I and then I won't be having those triggers based on time and events.

Weekend was very busy with my oldest having prom on Friday and a school Banquet on Saturday. She had broken her toe 3 days prior to this but seemed to make it through the events just fine. Yesterday was a horrible day as I noted in my above post. Hope you had a great weekend!

2B-

I'm not sure on how you should mention those emails to your H at this point. Remember, you've already done a 'full disclosure' to him a couple of times...and each time, there seems to be something else that he's still not aware of. As I warned you before, that just tends to prolong how long it takes for the trust to begin rebuilding. Given that he's not wanted to read emails up to this point, do you think that he'll be willing to read the ones you're referring to now?

I think that you'd probably best be served by talking with him about it. I'm sure its painful for you to do, but I think that it's healthier for the both of you to deal with it together, as opposed to simply asking him to read the emails. Tell him what you two did to try to avoid the A, and to end things before it got too far.

My wife has mentioned how they 'fought it', and tried to keep the A from starting. I'm not sure exactly how that works myself, as I've not been so tempted that I'd ever let something like that happen myself. Personally, I've always taken the steps to end a friendship or whatever if it had the potential to cross that line, and so it's hard for me to envision fighting something like this but NOT ending it before it got to that point. Your husband is likely to have that same kind of difficulty in understanding what this point was like for you too...something you might want to be aware of.

My wife doesn't think about these things in the same way I do. She tends to avoid thinking about the A...she'd like to feel like it never happened I think. For the most part, I think her feelings are more along the lines of guilt and shame about it, as opposed to ongoing feelings for the OM. She's repeatedly told me that she doesn't miss him anymore...that for her, it's over and done. Personally, I would guess that she DOES still have some feeling of loss, but that it's greatly diminished from what it was, and that the improvements in our M have helped her to overcome that so that its not on her mind anymore.

Owl, yesterday I had asked my H why he didn't want to read the emails that he made me delete. He then told me that I wouldn't let him! I didn't really remember that until he told me yesterday! I remember showing him a few selected emails before deleting all of them and now I do recall not wanting him to see the emails that I KNEW would hurt him if he read them.

As far as this email account. It's not mine. The OM never knew I looked at it so I felt foolish if I would have asked my H to tell the OM to change that password. It hasn't been used ever again and was only used for those 2 weeks. I discovered somewhere along the way that it was the same password and looked at it one day and used to it to try to sort out the whole A in my mind. What's in there are my emails to him. The emails in his sent box to me were deleted by him at some point. I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning to my H or not if I am not going to go back to it. I did tell my H before about how the A started and that we kept trying not to "start it". My H is aware of the context of the beginning emails and they were part of the emails I had deleted from my email account on D-Day.

As far as "fighting" the A....once you cross the line from a friendship to the A, you can never go back. The only way to end it would have been to stop contact at that time. This was very evident to me after I looked back at those emails. What happened with us is that the first day we went into the A with admitting our "feelings" for each other, we knew in our "heads" we shouldn't have gone "there". The very next day, we decided that it was wrong and then tried to go back to just being "friends". It became IMPOSSIBLE!! We continued this back and forth for quite sometime. The OM had actually thought we should stop communicating back then, but we still pressed on with it. He had actually told me back in the beginning that I should be "running" from him and that he wasn't good for me. I could have chosen to do that at the time, but I couldn't or I guess I should say I didn't want to! He had later told me that he didn't push ending the communications with me because he didn't really want to as well.

I'm in a weird place myself regarding wanting to know the details of the A. It seems that a lot of BS's want to know but frankly, I'd just as soon not. A question for the BS's -what's to be gained? It seems to me that knowing what the conditions that lead to it is important, but diggin in to the acutal A itself almost seems perversly voyeuristic if no masochistic to me. It almost seems like an act of punishment to make the WS dredge up all of those details. I need enlightenment.

2BN-

Sorry you had a tough weekend. I'm unclear about the OM email - are there emails still in there that you can access? You have taken such strides in ridding yourself of the pictures, emails, etc, I would think you would not want to have any others to tempt yourself.

You also talked about re-reading old emails in order to sort the A out. I think this is why I am holding on to my conversations. I copied them off when my H discovered the EA, but never went back to read them. I am tempted to read them now because I think that reading them in this light would help me see the foolishness of what I did. I don't think I am disillusioning myself with this thinking. I really believe I will be able to see that the R was not what I believed it to be in my head. I am hoping that I can read between the lines and really see some things about OM that would open my eyes. Do you think this would be dangerous to do?

Owl

Quote

My wife has mentioned how they 'fought it', and tried to keep the A from starting. I'm not sure exactly how that works myself, as I've not been so tempted that I'd ever let something like that happen myself

In a word - ADDICTION - , for myself at least. A physical, emotional ADDICTION that overpowered me. I do not have an addictive personality, which goes to show you that anyone can succumb to this. I, too, remember telling OM when we had "crossed the line". We both agreed that it was wrong, but at that point we both were too powerless and weak to stop. Yes, 2BN, once the "feelings" were revealed to each other it was too late. Even after we had BOTH been caught by our spouses. I, personally, had never before been in the situation of being in a friendship that was on its way to an A, so I did not know what signs to see in myself that the R was becoming a problem before it was too late.

I think it's probably true for your W, Owl, that she doesn't miss HIM. For me a sense of loss, loss for a person that was cared about, and loss of someone caring about me. You both are doing great, just keep your focus on the future. You are individuals and are dealing with the situation from different vantage points, but you are on the right path together and have the same goal. Remember that!

2B-

I grant that the only way once the feelings come out is to end contact completely. I have known that for a long time...it's just depressing to know that my wife (like you) chose NOT to end contact at that point. But...it's in the past. It's NOT ongoing now.

Just a thought...since OM doesn't use that email account anymore, why don't YOU delete the emails that are in it? Then there would be nothing there for you to go back to.

I'm not surprised that you 'mis-remembered' how the email thing went. Still a small waft of fog floating around is my guess. My wife went through a lot of that too...even months later, she'd recall something completely differently than I would, and I'd have to go back and prove to her that what I had seen was the case sometimes.

Interesting how the OM in your case had tried to get you to 'run away' from him...my wife's OM played Devil's Advocate too...honestly, it's a very effective ploy to solidify feelings...he convinced you to look for the reasons to be with HIM by doing it that way. Think about it. I know it worked like a charm in my wife's case. And that conversation happened the day before I began logging IM's. It just helped to convince my wife more than ever that he was the one for her...because he was being so 'selfless'.

Cards-

Sorry for the threadjack here my friend...it sometimes seems like all three of us are sharing this thread for us to heal.

You have no idea how good it is to hear that he's asked you for the continued communication, AND that you responded so positively to it! That really is a good thing...keep it going!

Triggers aren't always a logical thing...it's all about emotions and associations. Not surprising that you've been blindsided by something like that...all of us have to deal with those in some way or another.

I hope you and your husband DO make use of the time in the evenings to talk things out. Take a look at that book I'd mentioned before..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" by Dr Steve Stephens. It was a good tool for my wife and I...we used it to spark exactly those kind of conversations. We've talked about going back through it now that we're no longer in 'crisis mode' now too. Just a thought.

Again, glad to hear that you're doing well!

OWl-

DON'T apologize for thread-jacking. It's actually easier to keep up with everyone if we're all in the same place!

My OM "apologized" for getting me into "this". He also suggested that maybe we should stop when my H discovered us. But when I told him that I was saying goodbye to him he responded by saying we can talk during the day. Not blaming him, we were BOTH in the fog.

Quote

I'm unclear about the OM email - are there emails still in there that you can access? You have taken such strides in ridding yourself of the pictures, emails, etc, I would think you would not want to have any others to tempt yourself.

Cards - I'll try to be more clear on this. This email account was the first email account the OM had created for us to communicate by email. Previous to this, we had communicated ONLY by PM's on the forum that we met. We send PM's back and forth from February 2004 until the beginning of Sept. 2004. I had let go of the first OM by the middle of August to put this all on a timeline for you. Then we suggested switching to email in September. He had some problems with this particular email account with it taking to long to receive my emails to him, so after about 2 weeks he changed email addresses. The email account he switched to was the one my H knows of and the OM just changed the password to last Monday. I believe the OM never went back ever to that first email account because it was so long ago and probably long forgotten by him. When I had accessed it after D-Day there had been no activity in it whatsoever. The emails in there are ONLY my emails to him in his in box. But because of the way we emailed, there are quotes from his emails on my emails to him. Nothing else is in there.

It was these few weeks of emails that I had re-read and tried to sort through. I had also read through all of the PM's that we had written each other. I have since deleted the PM's. What was interesting to me was that all the PM's (the majority of them) where his trying to help me with letting go of the first OM and then us discussing our M's. Interesting to read his words to help me end an A after we had an A ourselves! I guess for me it did help some, but I only had these beginning emails, not the ending emails to sort through. I am glad that that's is all there was for me to go back to. Rememeber though that I had looked at these months ago. That was when I did my sorting out. I honestly think all of the later emails would have been more harm to look at. I'm guessing that if you are like me Cards, that you have most of these conversations "burned" in your head and that you most likely remember most of the details of them. Do you really want to bring all of that back up now?

Owl, I had thought about just deleting my emails in the OM's email account,but then I didn't feel right to do that since I didn't create that account and the OM never knew I had accessed it. This is why I am just not going back there. I think with most of these email accounts that after a certain period of inactivity, the account will close.

Cards - I have never told you that with the first OM, it was my oldest daughter that saw me IMing him!! She had no clue who I was talking to, but immediately told my H that I was talking to someone and she didn't know who. This was all about 2 weeks prior to this OM coming to see me. His coming to see me was already planned and I didn't want that "plan" to fail. I told my H a general story of who this person was and then asked the OM to send me a "fake email" of not contacting me again. I couldn't stop and pushed forward with the OM seeing me! It is a HUGE ADDICTION that we had and it was continued sadly on my family's expense!

Talk about addictions.... I think I've replaced the addiction to OM with talking to you all! Oh well, much healthier!

Sys, my H would agree with you. He initially DID want to know the details, but since January when he discovered the EA he has not wanted to know more. Here's what happened in our case. For whatever reason, I saved all our IM conversations. My H had begun to suspect something was up. 2BN, my kids were aware I was chatting with "a friend" over Christmas vacation when I was home with them. This came up once or twice in conversations. I explained it away as my card partner and laughed it off to the whole family. At some point my H had heard the name once too often and put two and two together one night when I was up at 4 am chatting. At the time he didn't push me or look at what I was doing, but the following week he asked to check my email because he said he had given mine out for job hunting purposes. I gave it to him & he found an email where we had arranged to meet at a certain time. Immediately my H assumed this was a PA and we were meeting somewhere. He confronted me a couple days later & I explained it was an online friend. He said a few things that made me think he had read the conversations I had saved, so I asked him about that. It turns out he hadn't then, but it tipped him off to do a thorough pc search. He saw the conversations and read only a couple before I walked in one day. I know he read one where we were mildly flirting, but this is also how he found out about the webcams. He was outraged (naturally) and left the house, which is when I copied off the conversations and deleted them off the hard drive. He later asked about the conversations and when I told him I had deleted them he seemed somewhat relieved.

I think some BS would want to know every detail so that they could try to understand their WS and what was going on in their heads. But I think for my H it was enough to know that I was emotionally & physically attracted to someone else. I think that was enough information for him - that was bad enough. I don't know the answers for you, Sys, it probably varies from person to person. It may be that later down the road you will want to know more. I'm sure Owl has thoughts on this.

Quote

my wife's OM played Devil's Advocate too...honestly, it's a very effective ploy to solidify feelings...

My wife told me her OM said he would drive us to MC if he could....that's how much he cared for her happiness. What a load.

Sys-

In my case, I haven't really asked for much in the way of details. There aren't many, nor is there much that she didn't freely offer once everything came out. At that point, she had nothing to lose by telling me the truth...she was all set to leave me for him.

I can understand the need though. I did need to know what went on, for a few reasons. I needed to understand what it was that I was forgiving her for. A blanket "I forgive you" means nothing to me...but knowing what took place, I could get to the point where I could say "I forgive you"...and mean it. I needed to understand what it was that she was seeing in him, and getting from him, that I SHOULD have been providing for her. It also helped to know what it was that she was withdrawing FROM, when we were in that phase. It all helped me better understand how to help her too. In some ways, it also helped me to deal with the situation with her...because a lot of it sounded really foolish even to HER when she was telling me about it. It put it into perspective for HER, just telling it to me.

And it is possible that your need for answers may change, once you've gotten to the point where you are no longer in 'crisis mode'. In the first few months, it was all about saving my marriage...once my marriage seemed secure, THEN things started to bother me...and I've since started working on healing ME now. You may find yourself in that same boat as well.

I'm glad the 'working on yourselves' approach of counseling is doing you some good my friend. In our case, it was the opposite of what we needed. Heck, the PROBLEM was that we had gotten too far apart from each other, so working on ourselves didn't seem to be doing anything to fix our marriage. We did it the other way...we worked on the marriage, and once we got to a point where we knew that it would survive, we started backing off and taking care of ourselves. But as long as it works, any method is good!

My H wanted to know certain details, but not ALL details. I guess certain things helped him to understand how far things went.

I seem to be having a problem with verbalizing too much lately. Whatever I'm thinking or whatever the triggers or reminders are, I'll end up saying out loud to my H. For example last night as my H and I were flipping through the channels, the show "Las Vegas" was previewed. I had told my H previously about the OM and his W going to Las Vegas in Oct. for their anniversary, and my H just gave me a look when that show flipped by...thinking that I may be thinking of the OM. I looked at my H and blurted out that the OM liked that tv show. I know I am pushing my H with saying too much lately and I have to learn to keep these reminders inside for my H's sake.

Cards, it's interesting how you continued with everything with even your children and H suspecting just like me. Such an addiction it was! My H walked in on me once as I was typing an email to the OM. He said my face quivered and shook and I didn't know what to do! I'm not very good with hiding things with my facial expressions and he knew something was not right. When I look back and think about all the deception I had going, it sure makes me think what a horrible person I was at the time.

Cards

Obviously I am a "Johhny come lately" so I have only read a few of the replies and a couple of your posts.

When there is a strong emotional attachement it is very difficult to find closure. My A ended in June and there was no contact until the OW e-mailed me in April(this is now a fw years later). I was being "good" but that e-mail popped me right back into the "thick of it", although we only had phone conversations and e-mail.

If you are determined to end the A then that is your "closure". We have all come into our relationships with some kind of "deficiancy". Perhaps your H's is ADD. We have to understand the capabilities and needs of our spouses and they in turn need to recognize ours. We must seek to overcome our shortcomings and to magnify the positive aspects of our personalities. We cannot have perfection. We are imperfect creatures uniting with others that are equally imperfect. Our love and desire is what can make up for what we were not born with.

H

Cards-

My situation was a little different. We all knew my wife chatted with this guy...but she'd actually cut way back on how much time she'd spent actually logged into game, so I'd thought that we were making PROGRESS. Turned out that she'd quit logging into game, because it was easier for them both to sit and chat via IM instead of via the game interfaces. I had thought that they were spending less time together...when it turned out that it was far more, and had spilled over to phone conversations and emails as well.

2BN-

It's NOT that you were a horrible person...you were a very selfish person, but not horrible. And the real trick is to LEARN from the past...that's what I've been working on too. Make sense?

Hiker -

Quote

When there is a strong emotional attachment it is very difficult to find closure

How are you defining closure? Does closure really exist? I think I really have come to the same conclusion you have. No matter what conversation I would have & no matter what things OM would say there would still be the loss of the emotional connection that was. That loss will exist irregardless of the words that are exchanged. So if I am still thinking "foggily", the illusion is that closure will somehow help me get over the attachment, because that's what I so desire. But, by pursuing the closure (with contact) I am really just putting my heart & head back in the EA, right? Easy to understand, hard to apply. ADDICTION.

Hiker, thanks for your post. I have read some of your other posts and appreciate your insights and applaud your recovery.

2BN-If I verbalized every trigger & thought about OM to my H, we would be in a much worse place I believe. For him, every reference seems to be painful (understandably so). I try to put myself in his shoes - I would certainly not want to keep hearing about the woman my H "fell in love" with. I have "tested" these waters and have learned to keep the references to a minimum - only brought up when it can be constructive in our conversations.

I don't exactly understand this, but we (you and I, 2BN) do seem to have the need to talk about OM & the events of the EA. Getting it out here on the MB site does seem to help. Maybe by talking about it, it helps us to process it? I do wonder why I have that need vs. some of the WS that seem to move on and forget (like Owl's W & Sys' W?). Were they less attached? Or just different personalites dealing with it in a different way?

As far as the kids are concerned, I was foggy enough even at that time in the EA to believe in my head that what I was doing was harmless. Fortunately, they didn't realize the implications and just thought it was funny. Once they went back to school after Christmas break they were no longer "exposed" to what I was doing. My H & I believe they are none the wiser to what ensued just a few weeks later. I hope that is the case.

Quote

No matter what conversation I would have & no matter what things OM would say there would still be the loss of the emotional connection that was. That loss will exist irregardless of the words that are exchanged.

Cards, what you stated is very true. I may have felt like I was getting some closure with the OM with some of the things I learned and words we exchanged, but I'm still left with that loss of the emotional connection I had with him. One of the things we were able to do was ask for forgiveness of each other, and maybe that alone will help me know the rest of my life that he was truly sorry for what we did.

Cards, I don't understand why I feel that I have to "get it all out" too. Am I still focusing too much on it or am I trying to process it? My H wants me to move on from this, but I still feel that I am sorting out all the "whys" of the A. I will keep my thoughts of my triggers inside more for my H. I know it hurts him that I keep verbalizing it all.

Cards-

I'd be very surprised if the kids really are clueless to what's gone on. If you HAVE managed to keep it that way, I must say I'm very impressed with how you and your H handled it then. FAR better than we managed...but there's no way to keep quiet when she moved to the motel and had plane tickets. But then again, my crew is considerably older than your kids as well.

I do think that it's a result of how different personalities handle problems, at least in regards to talking about it or not. I'd also think that your exposure to MB has been a part of your desire to discuss things...whereas my wife and Sys's have NOT wanted to come here and look at how MB suggests that a marriage recover. My wife feels pretty much as though she's past what happened...she's comfortable with the changes we've made in our R, she feels her EN's are being met, and that she's learned enough about boundaries and R stuff now that she'll not fall back into have an A of any kind again. Perhaps for her, THAT is why she's got no further need to talk about it. And in Sys's wife's case, she has yet to SERIOUSLY commit to re-building her R with him (sorry to phrase it like this Sys, but that's what it seems like to me), and so she's not really comfortable talking with him about the A yet either. Just my guess anyway.

Owl,

I'm sure my kids were aware there was some upheaval going on at home, especially the week that H discovered the EA. There were lots of behind doors conversations, they were probably aware of my change in behavior with regards to the depression I was dealing with. But, I am hoping that those strange happenings were just a glitch that they couldn't really put their fingers on. We didn't ever have any discussions with them about what was going on. We tried to keep the household running same as usual.

Regarding the constant discussing of this, I just want to be sure it is constructive to do so, and not further keeping me in the throes of the EA.

Owl, I am curious to know how you benefit from these discussions. Does this help you to understand your W's thinking?

Cards-

Well, I wouldn't be too surprised if your kids figure things out as they get a little older. Kid's are smart, and they learn everything by watching their parents. It's a good bet that they've also pieced out that your 'friend' was part of the problem, since you stopped talking with him around that same time frame. Have a game plan ready with your husband on how to deal with this issue if the kids bring it up is my suggetion.

Not sure which 'discussion' you refer to in your question to me. If you mean 'discussing the A with my wife'...yes, it helps me to understand what her thoughts were at the time. We really don't discuss the A anymore per se...it tends to come up when we're dealing with our teens (they're all older teens) when we're talking about R issues and such. It's easy to use that as an example of how addiction, obsession, opposite sex friends, boundaries with opposite sex friends, etc... all work, and/or can go wrong (or right, when we're using an example of something good that we've done since).

If you're talking about discussions on these boards, I'd say that it sometimes gives me insight to my wife's thoughts, but often I also get a bit of a feeling of satisfaction when I've said or done something that has helped someone else. I feel a little bit like it is a bit of good that came out of what I've gone through...at least I can help someone else a little from that.

And I think that online EA's are pretty misunderstood by a lot of people. Most people can't see the damage from it, unless they've been there.

Quote

And in Sys's wife's case, she has yet to SERIOUSLY commit to re-building her R with him (sorry to phrase it like this Sys, but that's what it seems like to me), and so she's not really comfortable talking with him about the A yet either. Just my guess anyway.

Don't sweat it Owl, I think the assessment if fair. Although I do beleive she is serious about trying, just cautious at this point. She has told me she is hopeful (but apprehensive) and trying her best to make it work. I have to admit, that although there has been no concise declaration, in deeds and words she is making the effort. It seems to be getting better almost everyday right now. I don't know that she would volunteer a whole lot on her own and I haven't pushed for details. She did actually tell me quite a bit when it all first came out, but we haven't talked about it much since. Anyway, don't mean to hijack the thread.

We have kept it from the kids too, other than maybe them notincing bad moods and tears. But my kids are very young.

One thing that got me incensed in the beginning though was how cavlier my W was about doing this not just to me, but to our family. Felt the same way about the OM, how dare he come into my family and willingly tear it up as though he had some right to it. The utter selfishness and lack of consideration for my kids from both of them really made me angry. Of course, the rationalization was that if she was happy, she would provivde a happy environment for the kids and she was going to be kind enough to allow me to have the kids in my life still. What a good person she was! It was all for the good of the kids! This much she has told me. No thought that destroying me and our relationship would somehow impact the kids. I forgive it now in the name of the "Fog".

Sys-

No apologizing for thread jacking! I am happy for all of us to discuss at the same place.

Your post is along the lines of what I was wondering earlier about discussing all this. How myself & 2BN have this NEED to talk about all these things, and your W's seem to work through it alone. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, but I am envious of those who seem to be able to get through their withdrawal and "see the light" faster. Although I am committed to my M, I am still struggling with doubts about our ability to put it all back together. I believe, for me, that I have to have OM completely out of my mind in order to fully concentrate on my M & H. That's what I think I am doing by expressing here. My concern is that by continuing to post and compare all our stories, is that keeping my thoughts in the EA? Or, is it helping me through the withdrawal by getting it out? I hope that it is helping me to see that it was not about OM, but about our M. Is there a point at which it would be healthier to stop with all this? Although, from reading around on this site, people seem to gain comfort and help for YEARS after the end of their and their WS's A's. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm so sorry, Sys, your whole last paragraph is FOG talk as you know. She was not thinking clearly, logically, or realistically. She was not ABLE to think clearly, logically, or realistically. There are no excuses for the selfish behavior, and it is NOT your fault. It may take some time before she is able to truly be remorseful. She may still be too deep in withdrawal to give you what you need to hear in terms of being sorry and regretful. You have a right to be angry. I am glad things are improving with you and your W. It sounds like you are doing all the right things.

My OM told me, too, that if we (meaning he & I) were happy together our spouses would reap the benefits, too. What a joke, huh?

I don't know if my W just had a different angle on it from the start or what, but upon my "discovery" of the A, the first thing she did was tell me it was the M that was broken, the the OM was just a symptom, not the cause. She knew that much from the beginning. I don't know how to analyze that or what to infer from it. She inssited from the start that I shouldn't worry about the OM, but if I wanted to fix things that I needed to look at myself and the M.

From the start she expressed regret at letting it ever start, and said she felt foolish and guilty.All that said, she still went through a painful withdrawl, complete with slip-ups, rationalization, can we still be friends, the whole nine yards.

So does all of that in the beginning mean she hada leg up on the situation that you didn't -I don't know. Where was your head at at the time the A was exposed?

As for venting here, for me as a BS, this and the other forum probably saved me from destroying my marriage. I found these people in my darkest hour -I had no one to turn to and I found not only good compasionate people, but people who were going through the same thing -sookily similar situations too (Owl?). By having a place to nothing else if vent, I was able to work through a lot of emotional turmoil that I couldn't with my wife or even our MC. So I would say that so long as it's doing you good, stick with it. My guess is that talking about it puts it in better perspective and gives you the perspective of others (I imagine the BS's are good at keeping you honest with yourself).

Cards-

I think your point is a good one. I wonder if coming back to these boards does me more harm than good, that they're preventing me from letting go of the past.

I would like to make this suggestion, at least for the four of us that have been using this particular thread...why don't all four of us give our best effort to stop posting (and thinking) about the past...and start making the focus of our posts here about the future. What we're doing now to make things better, or what we've got planned to help our spouses and ourselves.

I've got a couple of trigger events coming up. I've made a CHOICE...I'm not going to go to these events thinking about the past...I'm going to go to them and enjoy how good they are today!! No thinking about what happened this time last year....I'm going to focus on what's going no THIS year!

Cards, 2BN, Sys...what are your thoughts?

I think it's a capital idea my good man! I for one have been living under the philosophy that I can live my life as if my marriage were going to fail, or I could live it assuming things are going to bet better -better even than it ever was. So I choose to assume that things are going to get better in the end.

So the immediate future: Of course the next big event is Mother's Day. My wife always wants to do the same ting each mother's day -go to the zoo with the kids. So we will be doing that. Beyond that my eldest daughter and I have conspired to put together a suprise picnic for her. I bought a really nice classic picnic basket complete with blanket and tbleware. I'll be preparing a semi-gourmet picnic for us to enjoy at the zoo. My plan is pamper the heck out of her for that weekend, and just having a really nice family weekend. Nothing miraculous I know, but for us, family events in the past were often triggers for the appearance of my over-stressed Mr. Hyde persona (a major contributor to problems in the marriage). Now I've really gotten a handle on that and am doing my best to provide really great quality family time.

Good morning everyone!

Owl, I was able to read your post and suggestion yesterday but had no time to reply until now. I think your suggestion is good, but I also know for me that sometimes I do have to look back to figure out how to move forward. Does that make sense? Maybe as you suggest, we should have the primary focus about the future though.

One of the main things I think about by looking back is how one day in my life and that decision I made that particular day affected me for the next 1 1/2 years. I want to prevent that from ever happening again and to learn from that. That one decision was to keep an email that I received from the first OM a secret from my husband. I was intrigued that this man looked for me after 24 years, and I knew that day, if I told my husband I would not be able to find out about this man from my past. If I would have thought smart, I would have told my husband, and then none of this would have happened to me with that first OM and then the 2nd OM. I would have never talked to the 2nd OM. The only reason I talked to the 2nd OM and he became the 2nd OM was because he helped me with the first OM. What a mess I was and never want that again!

Now moving forward. Sys - you have some great ideas for Mother's Day weekend! You have things so planned out already and I'm sure she will be very grateful.

We have our 19th anniversary coming up in a few weeks. I want it to be special, but it is also such a busy time of the year for us. We won't even be able to be together on our anniversary to do something. I do hope my H will plan something for us, but I don't want to be disappointed if he doesn't. We do have an awesome family vacation planned to New York City in June and we are all looking forward to that time together!

2BN-

I can see your point, but instead of dwelling on that day, wouldn't it be better to look at it and understand what motivated you to make the choice to hide that email and decide if you've made the changes you need to in yourself and in your marriage so that if you received a similar email from someone you'd do the right thing this time?

I do hope that you and your husband can make this anniversary a special one for the both of you...because while you've had some rough times, hopefully you're in a better position now in how you both relate and feel for each other than you've been in years...at least, that's how my wife and I felt when we celebrated our first anniversary after d-day.

LOL...talking about a good comparison between how it was and how it is...this morning we saw previews for a show that we wanted to watch...my wife looks at me and says "Looks like some prime snuggle time on the couch to me!". A year ago, it wouldn't have mattered...she would have watched it from her computer chair and it wouldn't have been 'shared'. But today, I've got something to look forward to this evening!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Speaking of anniversaries -we have our 10th coming up in September and I'm not sure yet how we will handle it. I know that some of my family want a big celebration for us. It isn't for some time yet, and as well as things are going now, I don't care to predict where we will be 5 months from now. I sort of have this irrational goal that our anniversary will be a time for recomitting ourselves, not a charade. So I'm partly looking forward to it and partly dreading it.

On another topic, I had a pretty deep IM conversation with my wife this morning -sometimes we just end up talking that way. I got a lot of insight to where her head is at. The pertinant details are: she doesn't want to hurt me anymore, she wants it too work out between us, and she's afraid to hope too much. I think we have that in common. I am scared to death at the prospect of this not working out -there's a lot on the line and so hoping too much seems like a set-up for devastation if it doesn't work out.But how can we succeed if we don't take that leap of faith?

The other area that came up is that she is still very hesitant about physical affection (we're talking hugs and kisses at this point). She said she felt like she didn't want to make a promise she couldn't keep -ie physical affection without having the emotional currency to back it up I guess. But at the same time she didn't want to discourage me from expressing myself that way. We'll see where it goes I guess.

Sigh

But I'm not giving up.

Quote

instead of dwelling on that day, wouldn't it be better to look at it and understand what motivated you to make the choice to hide that email and decide if you've made the changes you need to in yourself and in your marriage so that if you received a similar email from someone you'd do the right thing this time?

Owl, I believe I would never do that again. If I think back to that day, I can still vividly remember reading the email and questioning myself what I was going to do with it. I waited a day to respond and even wrote an email to where this man knew I was happily married and that my life was going well. I never imagined that it would go where it went and even continuing on to a 2nd A. I thought I could take care of it on my own, and that was where I made my mistake. What I realize now, is that once the secrecy started, it was hard to break. It's not that I think of just that one day, but I think of how everything built upon that first secret I started.

Owl, how long after D-Day was your anniversary? And was it you that took the initiative to celebrate or your wife?

Sys, it sounds like your W is opening up even if she admits that she's afraid to hope too much. It can be overwhelming to think how a M can be better from where it was, but it seems like it takes these little steps of opening up and working together toward recovery and a better M.

2BN-
Our anniversary was about 5 months after d-day. And the choice on how to celebrate our anniversary was a joint one...I've mentioned a book several times in this thread that we used to help us a lot...and in it, it talks about celebrating the "Top 5"...Christmas, Birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and anniversary. So we wanted to make sure that we did make it a good occasion. We celebrated it by completely redoing our bedroom over that weekend. We bought a chandelier/candelabra, and a ton of new stuff for it and completely made it into a new room.

You know, I have wondered to myself a few times exactly where that 'point of no return' was with my wife...she says she can't remember that there was one, but my thoughts are that she either chooses not to think about it, or doesn't want to hurt me by talking about it. Either way, it's not a big enough issue for me to press for more on.

Sys-

Don't panic yet my friend. She's talking with you about how and what she's feeling...that's a huge first step, trust me. You'll find that this is how the real healing will begin...the talks may not be comfortable, but they should be open and honest. The more you're willing to show her that you ARE interested in rebuilding your marriage, and that she's not going to be beat up for the rest of her life over what happened, the more comfortable she'll get with talking with you. And that should lead to the return of her feelings for you...after all, it was that talking that lead to feelings with the OM as well. THIS is how it works.

So keep talking, don't bite her head off, and just wait to see what happens.

Owl, what was the name of that book again?

I like the idea making a joint effort to plan our anniversary. We haven't even talked about it yet. There is so much going on around that date with our daughter graduating high school and with my H's job. Our focus seems to be on those things and not our anniversary right now. Even if we don't get to celebrate on the "day", we can still plan something.

As far as a 'point of no return', I think it was the choice I made to keep it secret. Once I started the secret, it was easy for me to continue with more secrets. There was a very defining moment to all of this for me with that first email I received. For your W it is most likely different since she had already been talking to this OM on the games.
Just like the 2nd OM for me. It happened so gradual and slowly that I cannot say when I first started to have "feelings" for him. I know when we exposed our "feelings", but I cannot define the day I started to have them.

"20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage", by Dr Steve Stephens.

I'm not sure how this works, its my first time but I need to talk to someone about this. My wife has told me she has feeling for someone at work. I even know him. we are friends but not close. They have worked together your about 6 years. The middle of March this year I knew she was acting different and I got her pnone records and found out they were talking alot. I confronted both of them about. Now on the weekends she is OK but after work she is different. She says they never slept together. I believe her becuase we are always together expect at work. But we work right across the street from one another. We have 2 kids. 5 year old is ours, 12 year old from her previous marriage. We\ve been together for 10 years, marriage for 6. He is marriage with 1 kid and another one on the way. He was the first to tell my wife he wants her, now my wife says her feeling have gone to him. Her heart is there as she puts its. She told me wants to see if we can go on, but she will not tell me she will stop talking to him at work. She says she has tried but can't stop. I think he is pressuring her to leave me. I told them I'm not going anywhere, I'll do whatever it takes to fix this. I haven't told his wife about this becuase I'm scared it might hurt the baby. I think they want me to blow up and leave or tell his wife. that would make it easier for them. She says I'm pushing her further away when i pressure her. i do good for a week or so but then i have to bring it up again. They have only had these feelings for abot six weeks. iknow for sure. do i stop pushing? what can i do to help her end this. she made a appointment for counseling but canceled. she says she is not ready. she'll go if she gets over him. i told her to talk to anyone. her sister. but she hasn't. What can i do? its like they are in a fantasy world. she knows what at stake. her first divorce was bad for everyone. i told her right i can let her talk to him at work but nothing more.she says ok but i think she sees him for 15 minutes before work sometimes. sge doesn't want to ride to work with me. she says she is not seeing him anywhere else. any suggestions? or similar cases. thank you for listening.

Dwaiting-

Seriously my friend, I'd recommend that you start your own thread here on MB...you'll likely get a LOT more response that way.

Very sorry to hear about your situation. It's rough, I know...been through something similar myself. My suggestion would be to read not just the forum section, but read through all of Steve Harley's info on infidelity. It should provide you with a lot of insight.

My thought on your situation is this. She's not going to change right now, because she's got everything just the way she wants it...she's got him and you both. So take a look at what is called Plan A...read through it, and start implementing what you can of it. Basically, it means that you should do everything you can to improve YOURSELF so that you're meeting your wife's needs as best as you can. At the same time, YOU SHOULD BE WORKING TO END THE A. The best way to do this is to EXPOSE it...to everyone possible. Her family, your family, all of your joint friends...the OM's family as well, if possible. She hasn't talked to her sister about this, because she KNOWS what she's doing is wrong, and she doesn't want to consider hearing that from anyone...especially from somoene she cares for.

You need to express to your wife as clearly, and as calmly as possible that what she is doing is hurting you VERY much, and it's destroying your marriage. Again, READ this whole site as best as you can...

Get counseling for yourself if nothing else. This is NOT something that you want to try to handle on your own...it's just too big.

And again, look at starting your own thread here on the forums...it will get you a lot more response.

Owl, thanks for your input. How do i find plan A or where is it? thanks alot. I want to make the A public, but what if she blames me for doing it? Iknow its probably for the best but i'm just a little scared to do it.

How do i start my own thread? thanks

Sys-

Quote

does all of that in the beginning mean she had a leg up on the situation that you didn't -I don't know. Where was your head at at the time the A was exposed?

Everything you describe about your W are all things I said or thought at one time or another. At the time of d-day (and before) no matter how much the rational part of my brain was telling me that the whole things was so illogical, I couldn't mentally or physically pull away from it. I'm sure it sounds crazy, but unless you've experienced it I really don't think you can understand it. I would've NEVER believed it in 100 years!

It sounds to me like your W experienced much the same as the rest of us. Both my H & I knew there were marital problems, this just brought them to the forefront where we could no longer ignore them.

Owl, I knew you would jump on the idea and I'm glad you did! The reason I posed the question about continuing to write about the details of the EA was because after a couple of those last writings, I did feel pulled back in. Going over those details took me back - and although it partly felt soothing (in a way), it also was painful to rethink about those days around d-day. It was a tumultuous time. I was unsure if revisiting all of that was constructive or not. BUT...........

2BN-

Quote

I also know for me that sometimes I do have to look back to figure out how to move forward. Does that make sense?

This is the hard part for me too, 2BN. I have felt that as my head became clearer I have been able to re-analyze the events in order to better understand myself. I have
WANTED to look back and understand it all. So, I do agree that looking back with a clear mind helps to put it in perspective and move forward. Maybe we have to find the happy medium.

The point of no return? Hhmmm. I remember asking OM what he would think if we stopped "talking" (I believe I was becoming attached at that point). When he said that he had feelings for me, that was one point of no return. It just escalated from there, and the talks became more intimate.

Our 19th anniversary is coming up as well, 2BN, June 7th. Before you all brought this up I hadn't even thought about it. Sys, your plans sound great for Mother's Day - you are making a supreme effort to fill your W's EN's!

Owl, I see that you have a trigger date coming up next week. Although my H doesn't remember any dates, I am sad that what started as seemingly innocent relationships on the parts of me, your W, and others could have effects on our spouses for a whole year (or longer).

Sys-

Quote

she doesn't want to hurt me anymore, she wants it too work out between us, and she's afraid to hope too much

We seem to be in similar places with regard to where we are in sorting out this mess. My H would probably say that he thought I was over everything fairly quickly. But if he really thinks about the things I said in the subsequent weeks following d-day, he would notice that early on it was all about convincing him (and myself) that the EA was no big deal. The talk was about that, and the fact of the problems in the M. At the point that I really ACCEPTED that the EA was over, it was then that I was able to realize that we are left with this broken M. I could then talk about and feel badly about hurting my H, and really mean it. Not that I never thought about OM again, but the fog had begun to lift, I realized the fantasy was over, and saw that my choices consisted of saving my M or not saving my M. The OM was not even in the equation because it was over. It does sound like your W has sort of gone through these similar stages. I told my H, too, that I had doubts about my feelings for him and that I was concerned that we would be able to feel love for each other again. This site and all the books has given me hope, I may be even more hopeful than him because I have seen and read where M's have been restored.

I hope we all can continue to move forward and concentrate on how great our M's can be if we work at it. I appreciate sharing with all of you - it has been important in my recovery from my EA.

dwaiting - at the top of the forums, click on "Post" and you can start your own thread. You will find Plan A and alot of other information on the main site. You will find a wealth of information by reading there.

Quote

The reason I posed the question about continuing to write about the details of the EA was because after a couple of those last writings, I did feel pulled back in. Going over those details took me back - and although it partly felt soothing (in a way), it also was painful to rethink about those days around d-day. It was a tumultuous time.

Cards, since you are discovering it is painful to rethink these days and details, are you finding yourself less pulled to keep those IM conversations? Do you think you will be ready to dispose of them soon?

I remember the OM posing how I would feel if we would stop talking way before the EA started. I did know at that point I didn't want to let go of him even before we started the EA.

My H and talked about our anniversary last night. Our anniversary is May 17th and coming up very quickly. We may have to put off celebrating for a few weeks due to graduation and other events. We are thinking of possibly going to a theme park for the day and just spend the day together. I hadn't thought about it much before this like you Cards, but I am glad we are talking about it now. My H said he had already had some ideas in his head, so that made me feel good that he was thinking of us.

Quote

I told my H, too, that I had doubts about my feelings for him and that I was concerned that we would be able to feel love for each other again. This site and all the books has given me hope, I may be even more hopeful than him because I have seen and read where M's have been restored.

Cards

As you said it seems you and my wife are at similar points in the process. Now you aren't my wife and I'm not your H, but what would you think my W would want most from me in terms of getting us back to those love feelings? Do you know what you need from your H to get there or is it a waiting game?

Owl says it's about talking, and that's something that we are starting to do, as much as I need to take the initiative, when we do talk, she is really beginning to open up.

I wish I could give her the kind of hope you seem to have found. I had her read your thread but she didn't have much to say about it. She still seems very hesitant to make the leap. As much as she says she's hopeful, I get the sense that she's still on the fence. I don't know if she has come to the point of realizing that her choices consist of saving our M or not saving our M. It seems she's taking a wait and see approach. Perhaps she's not confidant in beleiving that I have really made permanent changes and maybe she's waiting to feel in love before she commits to the fix. She is trying, she's doing her level best, but I guess I'm still looking for that declaration from her that says I want this to work. That may not come until she is confident that she wants me again. I wish there was some way to tell her we need to do a lot of the work before we get to that point. That I need a comitment to the work ahead , not neccesarily a comitment that it's going to work.

The last she told me (and this was when things were really bad) was "I WANT to WANT this to work" -I asked her not to tell me that b/c it just depressed me to hear. I haven't hear her say yet I WANT this to work. On the other hand, she is saying that she has hope. Hell we were talking about planning a trip to Disney World next year -sounds to me like she's decided to live her life as though it's going to work at least.

I guess this is my next big issue to talk about with her, this whole "I really need to know where you stand -I know you say you have hope and are apprehensive, but what is your level of comitment to us?"

2B-

Quote

since you are discovering it is painful to rethink these days and details, are you finding yourself less pulled to keep those IM conversations? Do you think you will be ready to dispose of them soon?

Reiterating the facts of the discovery brought back the memory of all the emotions associated with those days. Not pleasant to think of the guilt and hurt I caused my H, and also remembering my own state of confusion during those days - I still clearly remember the sense of desperation when the 2 worlds collided. Just not pleasant memories.

What I really believe about the IM conversations I have is this:

1. If I really dig deep, these IM's represent EN's that were not being met for me. As silly as it may sound, saving them is "proof" that I am loveable. I am apparently not trusting that my H can meet those needs. That's hard to admit that I would be that fragile. This goes back to a comment I made a while ago about making the "jump" to my H.

2. I believe that by revisiting those conversations with an "unfoggy" will show me that there really was not much depth at all to the R, and that the fantasy & fog overtook my thinking. By being able to read them "at arms length" I think that I will see the EA for what it was - temporary insanity, not a real R. My hope would be that I could clearly see that I made the whole thing much bigger in my mind than it really was. I haven't done this yet because I want to be sure withdrawal is over. 2BN, when you say looking back in order to look forward, this is what it means for me.

Cards, I can understand how you feel with wanting to discover what the EA truly was and that it was not true R.
Do you honestly feel that you have to see the IM's in front of you to discover this? I have deleted all of the emails that I had, but I still have "burned" in my head the very words we spoke to each other. I can recall so many of the conversations if I dwelt on it. I am in no position to tell you to delete them without ever looking at them again as you know I hung on to mine and re-read them many times. I just don't know if it hindered my withdrawal process by revisiting them.

For me, I am still struggling with those EN's that the OM met and I really liked them being met. I cannot recapture that with my H, and I still have struggles with that. I know in my head that it's not going to be "recaptured" with my H, but I still think of how I felt with the OM. I know I have to think of reality here and it's hard sometimes. It's hard to not think back sometimes as much as I want to push forward with my M. Maybe I'm really still somewhat in a "fog" with thinking this way, but also I did prolong things with the continued contact that I had.

If you do decide to look at the IM's Cards, please consider telling your husband about the IM's.

You know guys, it sounds to me that by hanging on to this stuff you are doing something that will keep you from moving on. You are creating a basis for comparisson between your OMs and your Hs. Feeling compared to that idealized person makes the BS feel defeated before they even begin. Trust me, that was my first and number one anxiety going in -how can I, the person my W now finds undesireable compete with this fantasy man whom she is convinced she loves? I had to pull myself up by my bootstraps and go for broke, but every little vestige of the OM in my wife's life was like a landmine on the path to reconciliation. Even her involvement with the game they played together, and the guild she led that he was in. Until she was able to give those up too, I felt like there was still this link no matter how tenuous, and how indirect to him and it hurt like hell.

Even if your H doesn't know he's being compared,the fact that he is being compared will get in the way. You need to take your H for what he is and what he can and will do for you. You can't look back at the EA and hope that your H will be a replacement for that. The EA was it's own thing, what you can and will have with your H will be different, but can be as satifying if not better if you look at it on it's own merits, without comparing it to some lost ideal.

If you need to understand your EN's that were met, go through the IM's one last time, write down your impressions and then destroy them. Use the knowledge gained to help your H meet your ENs, but please, for his sake and yours, that "artifact" needs to go.

Sys-

Quote

what would you think my W would want most from me in terms of getting us back to those love feelings?

What I think I need most to hear from my husband is that he is committed to saving our M no matter what it takes. I need to hear that he loves me no matter what. It is selfish and unfair that it is the BS’s burden to rekindle the “in-love” feelings, but for some reason we WS’s can’t/won’t take this responsibility. We should be the ones begging and pleading. For whatever reason this seems to be a common expectation from WS from what I’ve seen here, and I have to admit to being stuck in that as well.

Quote

Do you know what you need from your H to get there or is it a waiting game?

I am fearful of the waiting game. The waiting game is what my H & I were doing before the EA, and the waiting game was the breeding grounds for the EA.

Quote

As much as she says she's hopeful, I get the sense that she's still on the fence.

Read my point #2 on my previous post. Maybe this is true for your W too. We need to make the jump to trusting our H to meet our needs vs. OM. That is a key issue for me, trying to find the piece that will allow me to make that bridge.

Quote

I don't know if she has come to the point of realizing that her choices consist of saving our M or not saving our M.

THIS is the waiting game. Once she KNOWS and ACCEPTS that the EA is over she will face the fact that those are the only 2 realistic choices. She already knows intellectually that the EA is a symptom of a problem in the M, but she has to endure through the withdrawal and fog to really see the bottom line.

Quote

The last she told me (and this was when things were really bad) was "I WANT to WANT this to work"

I remember saying this to my H as well, and meaning it. As long as OM thoughts were pervasive it seemed impossible to really WANT the M to work. After all, OM was filling the EN’s. I know it’s hurtful to hear, but she is being honest about her feelings. As Owl said, this honesty and intimacy was what the EA was all about. Allow her to feel comfortable with being honest. This is a waiting game as well, and is a function of NO CONTACT and TIME.

Quote

this is my next big issue to talk about with her, this whole "I really need to know where you stand -I know you say you have hope and are apprehensive, but what is your level of comitment to us?"

I have asked my H this question and unfortunately I have received unsure and ambivalent responses. Part of the problem is that you and I are working through these issues with direction from these sites and others that have been there. It has given us hope and resolve and knowledge - that my H hasn't drawn from anywhere. I think it would be so helpful if our spouses could be enlightened with this thinking and get on the same page as us! I think you are doing all the right things, Sys. It sounds to me like you have made efforts to express your love and commitment. From my perspective I think you should continue doing that because eventually it will click with her and she will realize that YOU are the one that truly loves her.

I see that you have posted again, Sys, and I appreciate your ideas. You make a good point that we need to remember that H and OM will never stack up. That's part of the fantasy. I do want to say,however, that I did not compare the OM with my H. The entire experience for me was not only another man, it was escape from busy, crazy, hectic life. I immediately told my H that it was comparing apples to apples. My H is actually more handsome than OM, and OM had several undesirable traits. No excuses, but remember that the affirmations to us had addicting properties, which led to the fog and unrealistic thinking.

Thanks a lot for that detailed response Cards, that all makes A LOT of sense. I have told my wife that I love her no matter what, I have told her I will do anything to save the marriage. I think part of her problem is that she was unhappy for so long that in her heart and in her mind she has moved on and isn't sure if she can or even wants to return to me. In the meantime, all I can do is show her how much I love and care for her, and hope that someday sooner than later that work will pay off. I suppose it's possible that even at my best I'm not what she wants -that's a big fear of mine, that she's moved on and is trying to make this work against her instincts that tell her it's over EA or no EA.

Quote

The entire experience for me was not only another man, it was escape from busy, crazy, hectic life.

Same I suspect for my wife, the EA began and thrived while she was home caring for our young children. She had little contact with tother adults and when the OM (whom she knew for some time via and on-line game) went unemployed for a period of time , they spent the whole day together day after day playing the game and IMing and eventually on the phone. I was off at work and things were already not good between us so along comes this great guy who provided a shoulder to cry on about her frustrations with me and with the kids and he provided that companionship during the day as well.

I should say I should be more sensitive to the effect of the fog in terms of your comparing. That said, by actively retaining these keepsakes, don't you think that those transcripts are going to keep your mind in the past more than it should be? If I have one wish for my wife, it's that she jettison all vestiges of the OM and the EA. She will never forget him, but there's no reason to make it so easy to relive and therefore not fully put to rest.

Well... My H read my entire thread yesterday. I had actually encouraged him to get on this site on a few occasions, but he was reluctant. As you can imagine this brought up several issues and sparked some painful discussion for both of us. I have been honest about my feelings with him, so most of what I wrote was of no surprise. But, as you all suggested, he is hurt by the saving of the conversations. I do understand, but in my mind that has been a dead issue since these items have been put away for months and never touched. There was not a conscious effort to hide and keep them, just not an effort to destroy them.

Anyway, I know we will be dealing with this soon at home. I am glad that he took the time to read and understand the whole thing better. I think he was able to see the impact of this and grasp the importance that we work on our M. I had earlier expressed that I wished he wouldn't minimize what happened - now he understands and I am glad for that. We are finally both on the same page, at least in the sense the he understands where I am at. Now my work is to know where he is at. This may take some time as he is starting over from the beginning in some ways.

He is definitely more hurt than before and is fixated on my expressions of "feelings" towards this OM - certainly understandable. I wish there was a way to convey that it is not really about OM. Again the comparison issue, Sys. It's NOT about this guy being better than that guy. It's about something that wasn't in the M that someone else fulfilled. There is a difference.

Hope you all are doing well.

GOOD for you Cards !

This is going to boost your recovery like nothing else.

Remember, recovery means actually looking at and then dealing with the very painful previously hidden parts.

This is very cool !

Proud of you and your man!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Cards,
So glad to hear that your H read your thread and that he has a much better understanding now. I'm also glad that the IM's are out in the open now for your H to know. I understand how you feel about them, but it does hurt our H's when we hang onto these things. My H was hurt by the things I kept and when they were all exposed, it made a difference in me and in my H for our M.

We have a busy busy weekend ahead. I'm still finding either my H or myself will bring up "something" about either A, and I'm ready for that to stop and for us to concentrate on our future. My H told me this morning that I need to quit "loooking back" at my failures and for us to look ahead. This will be my goal!

I hope your weekend goes well with all of this information and I hope that you have a wonderful Mother's Day weekend too!

2BN and Pep-

Thanks for your words of encouragement. I am feeling a bit down about the whole situation that came out yesterday, but I think it's due to the additional guilt and the additional pain I've inflicted yet again. I do still feel that this was necessary in order for us to move forward together. I had been working through things on my own while H had not really been tuned in. At least now we will be at the same starting point.

2BN-

Quote

I am still struggling with those EN's that the OM met and I really liked them being met. I cannot recapture that with my H, and I still have struggles with that. I know in my head that it's not going to be "recaptured" with my H, but I still think of how I felt with the OM.

I think this is hardest of all, and I keep failing to be able to explain this to myself or my H. He questioned how I could STILL think of OM, and it is so hard to put into words and make sense of it. Not WANTING to feel that way, yet not WANTING to forget what it was like when those EN's were being met. It is so much more complicated than just thinking about another man.

Owl, if you're reading, I am still getting lots out of the "5 Languages of Love" book. Thanks for the recommendation,

Have a great MOther's Day weekend all!

Cards,
This is really great. I know I wish my wife would read some of my posts as well. It might be painful for us both, but to be able to see things from my perspective would be an enormous help, I think -you tell me since our roles are reversed here.

I'm so glad that you and your H are on the road now. Getting past this point seems to be a huge step in the right direction. I know you feel badly about the hurt, but you need to remember that he's already been through a lot of pain. If my wife were to bring up something painful right now I would imagine it couldn't be worse than d-day or the day I found she hadn't been maintaining the intitial NC. In fact even if it hurt like hell, I think I would be so happy that we were actually communicating instead of avoiding or hiding feelings or "details".

Hope everyone has a great weekend. I'm hoping for a great Mother's day for us and especially for my W -wish us luck!

Cards - I understand about feeling down. I felt that way as well when I exposed "everything". To me it was so hard to tell my H even though I knew it was necessary. But, I do feel that that we are starting to move forward because I have nothing left to hide.

Quote

I think this is hardest of all, and I keep failing to be able to explain this to myself or my H. He questioned how I could STILL think of OM, and it is so hard to put into words and make sense of it. Not WANTING to feel that way, yet not WANTING to forget what it was like when those EN's were being met. It is so much more complicated than just thinking about another man.

This is hard for me as well. I still am having a hard time viewing the OM as bad and I think it's because of the needs that the OM was meeting for me. My H told me that when I get to that point, I will be able to move forward. I look back at the first OM as bad, but still working on feeling that way for the 2nd OM.

Again, have a great weekend and Mother's Day!

Thanks, Sys-

I hope your W can come here soon. If not, is she confiding elsewhere? Are you still in MC? I would think she would need an outlet in order to sort out the feelings. For us I hope it is a big step, I'm not sure I feel that way today, though.

You mentioned about your W not honoring NC. The other BIG hurt my H expressed last night was reading again how I did not stop the EA after his discovery. That hurts him a lot that I was so weak to continue until OM W caught us. I'm feeling really low because of his comment to me that he now sees me differently. He had NEVER doubted my honesty and integrity until this EA - I have always been honest and open with him and everyone I know. That hurts immensely.

Keep going, Sys, and 2BN, we will get there!!! Keep the faith.

I hope I can get her here too, but for whatever reason, she seems loathe to do it this way. I think she thinks she'll be derided as a bad person out here. I've told her that that simply isn't the case, but I don't know.Or maybe she needs more privacy and if I'm here, she will feel she has to censor herself. I know I've said some things here that I might have put differently if I knew she was reading them and maybe that would be less effective. It seems like part of her strategy is to not look back, and hope that things work out going forward. Maybe this sort of place is to direct for her. I hope to talk to her about that too (add to my big list). She does have a few friends that she has been confiding in and they seem to be a help -one in particular.

Quote

He had NEVER doubted my honesty and integrity until this EA - I have always been honest and open with him and everyone I know. That hurts immensely.

Oh yeah my world was shattered when I discovered what was going on behind my back and then to learn that my wife had kept her unhappiness from me and then to have the NC broken was the last straw. I had to wonder if I knew her at all. I now have to fight every day to tell myself that she can't be lying about everything, that she can't be a bad person.I mean, she was the most caring and sensitive soul I know and yet she could do this unbearably horrible thing to someone she says she loved. I don't think she would hurt her worst enemy like this. I have to tell myself that she didn't do it to hurt me, but good Lord, what did she think was going to happen? It has gotten better ,but a lot of it is time, and rational thought reigning it in. But at first, I viewed everthing she said and did with suspicion. It hit me so hard I was having panic attacks 24-7. I was convinced she was scamming me everytime she agreed to to something to help our marriage, I was convinced she was buying time, you name it. Trust was beyond lost -I assumed the worst ALL the time. The woman I had entrusted with my love, my life, my soul had thrown all that away for someone else and for about a month I was like a zombie -I didn't know who she was or had become and didn't know what was happening to me -it was (and is) horrifying.

It will take alot of time and a supreme effort to demonstrate trustworthiness to repair this. I cannot imagine being hurt like that again by her and surviving it. Because of that, I can't afford to trust too much. I trust as much as I can, and I want to trust, but it is often an instinctual mistrust that I have to fight. It's that mistrust that sometimes still gets me paranoid and makes me wonder about her motives -is she sincere about working this out or is she plotting a better exit strategy? I beleive in my heart she is sincere, but that awful paranoid creature her betrayal gave birth to sometimes wins -and I hate it. I hate that it happened and I hate that it's become a part of me and I honestly sometimes hate her for doing it to me. But in the end, I love her so dearly, so completely that I find I can't help but forgive it and I turn that hate to simple regret and sadness. I've got some distance to go.

Well, wanted to let you all know that I am still alive...just had taken a few days off to concentrate on my wife and family.

I've read through the posts since I was last on...I've got to say that I hope everyone is doing well and that everyone had a good Mother's Day.

Cards-
I can imagine how both you and your husband feel. I am sure that your husband was really hurt at first by what he'd learned, but I'm hoping that he's using this as a chance to fix things as well...a chance to learn more about the both of you, and a chance to take this more seriously and to be able to begin working on meeting those needs.

Glad to hear you're getting good mileage out of the books I'd recommended too!

Keep being honest with your husband about EVERYTHING going forward now...THAT is how he'll re-build his trust and respect for you friend.

Sys-
Sorry to hear that the NC hadn't gone as well as you'd thought...I can relate. Remember, in my wife's case, it went on for a month, supposedly with contact ending each week...but it never came close. It finally went about 2 1/2 weeks, and then he slipped and emailed her again...but THAT was when contact was finally, completely ended. She never understood why she couldn't keep him as a friend...but the good news is that she absolutely does understand that now.

I've made it past a few of my 'anniversary' days...and things went VERY well. I've got to get some work done, but I'll post an update on that later today.

Owl - Glad to see you are still alive! Glad to hear also that you made it through those critical 'anniversary' days and that things went well!

Cards, how did your weekend go? I was thinking about you over the weekend and hoping things went well with you and your H.

Weekend went well for me. My H and daughters were very good to me yesterday and spoiled me for Mother's Day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sys-

I've re-read your last post. I know how you feel on the trust issue...and on the 'did I really know my wife' concept as well.

I've come to the conclusion that there IS something of an 'innocence lost' thing that happens as a result of an affair in a marriage...there are changes to how the BS views the marriage and their spouse that to a degree are irrevocable. You've lost the innocent belief that your marriage was 'special'...that something like this could never happen to you or your wife. You'd totally and completely trusted her with your heart and your feelings...but you've learned that if things DO get bad enough, she is willing to hurt you. I too have gone through this...and the truth is, you're marriage will never be exactly what it was before the affair.

I STILL have doubts occasionally...totally unreasonable, unjustified doubts. BUT...I don't act on them. I recognize them for what they are, and don't let them affect my actions or attitude. I can also tell you that I don't have them anywhere NEARLY as often or as strongly as I did when I was in your stage of things...so hopefully that will provide you with a little hope. The other good news is that once you get to the point where you ARE working through things, and you ARE talking about what you feel and the issues in your lives...your marriage can be BETTER in those aspects than it was before the A. Mine is.

I told my wife the day before our 'anniversary' of a family event last week that there were two days I was worried about...and I told her that I'd made the CHOICE to not to relive the past, but to enjoy today. She was glad to hear it...and even gladder to see me actually do it at that event, as well as yesterday during Mother's Day. (Last year, Mother's Day was horrible. She'd spent the whole day wishing she could be with him...the kids and I knew something was wrong, but couldn't seem to do anything about it...).

I took a four day weekend this weekend. My wife and I made a trip on Thursday to another city to take care of some family matters...and had a great time. We went to our event that nite...and I kept my thoughts of the past to an absolute minimum. I had a few moments...but shut them off completely, and it was a great nite. We had MC on Friday...and talked about it. She told our counselor that she had ONE thought about the OM that nite...and it was simply the thought of "if I had gone with him, I would have totally missed out on all of THIS". You can imagine how good that made me feel!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mother's Day was wonderful for all of us. Had a wonderful breakfest out of the house, spent the day shopping. We bought several nice, small gifts for her from the kids while we were out. And last nite, I opened "Spa Owl"...we've got a lot of good little things like a water foot massager, small parafin spa, etc... and I put them ALL to good use last nite. I spent three hours pampering my wife...and she was in heaven!! She loved it...and all I can say about thoughts of the past from last nite can simply be summed up in this....there was NO comparison!

So, wanted to share how things can be later on down the road...we're doing well. Actually, our 1 year d-day anniversary is this week...and I'm not dreading it at all at this point.

Hope this update can provide ya'll with some hope of how good things can get! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

it was simply the thought of "if I had gone with him, I would have totally missed out on all of THIS".

Owl - Interesting that your wife said that because that is exactly how I felt this weekend. It made me feel really bad about what could have been and I was a little down by it. I had gone to a Mother/daughter brunch on Saturday as well as a 50th anniversary party. Those events made me really think of how different things would have been if I would have pursued the OM. The events made me think of family and how important these things really are. My H and I discussed my feelings over the weekend. I'm trying to be open with this. He just told me...what were you thinking???? Meaning...didn't you think about all of these things when you were in the A??? I would have to say...I didn't really think!!

2BN-

Well, I knew that my wife wasn't thinking during that time. And I'd actually laid it out for her before she got on the plane...the rough part of our conversation that day was when I told her very clearly that if she went to be with him, she'd never be part of MY life again. And she'd envisioned this life of her living with him, and with me and the kids being some kind of extended family type thing, and we'd all be happy. NOT based in reality for sure...but that's pretty normal from what I've learned since.

This weekend was aweseome for us...and it's very clear to both of us that the 'stress' in our lives right now really doesn't have to do with my wife and I...it's all about dealing with our kids at this point! LOL

Sys-

I started to reply to your post on Friday, but ran out of time to finish. If it’s no longer timely or pertinent I apologize. I am so humbled by your post and it’s difficult for me to respond to your pain and anger. There is no justification for our EA's. I am sure your thoughts aptly express what my H must feel and I will have him read it. Have you expressed all this to your W? Maybe you should print it out and show it to her. I would love for my H to be able to verbalize his pain and feelings like you did.

Quote

I think she thinks she'll be derided as a bad person out here. I've told her that that simply isn't the case, but I don't know. Or maybe she needs more privacy and if I'm here, she will feel she has to censor herself. I know I've said some things here that I might have put differently if I knew she was reading them and maybe that would be less effective

I think we all deal with things differently. I have always been one to write in order to express my thoughts (hmmm it just occurs to me that our EAs were based on writing). Many people can't do that. My H can't and I don't expect that he will ever do any posting here. Last week I voiced my concern to my H about if my posting would be affected by the fact that he may read. Like you said, I don't want to hold anything back and have to word differently just because he may read it. Maybe your W would look at the info on the site instead? Maybe just reading SAA? That would get her on the principles at least. More than anything, I was relieved to know that the insanity I was going through was not abnormal.

Quote

I have to tell myself that she didn't do it to hurt me, but good Lord, what did she think was going to happen?

No intent to hurt you and no idea of the consequences. She was not able to "think outside" the EA once it was going on. I know that is of little or no consolation, but that is the honest answer. At the time the EA was being "created" and pulling me in, my mind was still believing that there was nothing wrong with the R. There were no forward thoughts that there was any deceit or that trust would be broken. Later, at discovery, it was simply denial and backpeddling in order to not lose everything.

YES, your W and I will have to work hard to prove our trustworthiness. This is why I am working SO hard to understand what happened. My character has never been in question before. I am a church board member, our kids attend a religion based school, I work as a CFO - honesty and integrity have always been at the top of the list as my personality traits. What happened to my brain that allowed me to behave this way? Where did my sense go? It's like a separate being overtook me. Today I feel basically back to the same person I was before the EA, but during that time I was an alien. My sleep habits were messed up, I couldn’t focus on work or my family, I didn’t eat much, my thinking did not feel normal. It was as much physical as it was emotional. My point is, Sys, that I think almost anyone could find themselves falling into a mess like this. I want to believe that my lack of judgment was temporary and not the true reflection of me. I have to assume that I was REALLY starved in the EN area in order for this to happen. I didn’t make itself know until the EA, and I didn’t understand it until AFTER the EA.

My H & I spent a lot of time on The Five Languages of Love last night, trying to pinpoint which language we each receive love in. We were easily able to determine his, but having difficulty deciding on mine. We decided that my “love tank” has been empty for a long time and I was trying to limp along by putting other things in my life. I am having to dig deep to find how and what kind of love I need from my H. It was a great discussion in that at least we are getting it all out in the open and are able to be honest about it. Neither of us is blaming each other, in fact, we are both taking a lot of responsibility. I really am feeling hopeful.

Owl, I am so glad you’ve had a great few days! It sounds as though our M is really on the right track and you are feeling secure in your R with your W. She has been able to be honest with you, and while you haven’t always liked what you heard, that openness between you has allowed the trust to re-grow.

2BN-Glad you had a Good Mother’s Day as well. How else are you doing?

Wow, a lot to reply to after the weekend:

Owl -just to be sure, the NC breaking happened in the first weeks after d-day, before our MC and all. Since then she has been golden -I am certain of it and more confident in it with each passing day. In fact, I am so confident now that I really feel ike we wreally have a chance to get down to work on our M. I am barely thinking about OM anymore. I did get some second hand news that he left her old guild, so not that it matters, but it's one more step removed. My wife is also pretty much saying that she doesn't think she's going back to EQ1 at all -talking about cancelling her station pass. I think we've found a lot of satisfaction playing EQ2 together and it feels great. I finally feel like I understand that part of her life. It was a big part of her life for years, one that I never joined her in -probably one of the few things we never shared and I can't help but think that even that led to some of our drift. Anyway, wanted to clear that up. All of that awful venting was really just to let Cards know what the EA did to me and what effect it has had on my impression of both myself and my wife.

Cards-

I know it sounded very harsh -but it was a harsh experience. I hope it helped in some way.

It is hard to imagine the irrational state of mind the EA put you (and presumably my W) in, but I take your assessment at face-value. I can't be focused on what was anyway. I want to understand it, but I need to see what I and we can do now. As for my wife looking out here -hmmm maybe -as I mentioned, I had her read your thread and about all I got was "it was long". I gave her an EN questionnaire to go over if she would (she said she would ), but has yet to do anything with it -I didn't want to nag this weekend at all -trying to keep it a fun weekend. Hopefully she'll get around to it. I did mine but wanted to wait until she did one to go over it. Maybe if she doesn't, do one I'll just go over it with her anyway.

Quote

"I want to believe that my lack of judgment was temporary and not the true reflection of me.

I can't help but wonder if this is some of the confusion my wife has described to me about being the kind of person she needs to be. I can't help but wonder how much trauma the whole affair has done to her that she hasn't gotten a handle on. I think this is another area I can help her with -I hope. I really wish she would come out here and talk to you , maybe gain some insight. We're due for a good talk, so this is on the list now too.

I did want to let everyone know though that we had a really great weekend . My wife says this was her best Mother's Day ever and had a great time. I hope though she doesn't see my effort as just another attempt to win her back (it is, but this is how it's going to be from now on ). It's going to take time I think for her to believe that I have no plans on ever stopping my efforts to be the best H I can. I think at the same time though, there is a lot of regret on both our parts that it wasn't like this all along. But we can't look back forever I hope this all helps build hope in her and hopefully, we'll get it all back together again.

The one thing thatI have noticed is that I still find that she responds to a lot of my efforts more with politeness than affection -maybe this is just the way she is going to respond for now. What I mean is, instead of a hug, or a kiss, or a simple touch, she'll say "thank you", or "oh, you didn't have to do that", etc. -it's all very verbal right now. Then again she has made it clear that she is having some difficulty with physical affection. She isn't really expressing what might be at the root of it ,but she's trying -I can tell. Any ideas?

Sys-

Just like your trust is going to take a long time demonstration of your wife's openness, honesty, and eventual willingness to work things out, HER trust of your intent is going to take a long time demonstration of the change in behaviors as well. I know it really isn't fair, but it's true.

Just remember friend...most marriages take years to recover from something like what we've been through. Right now, you're in a better spot than you were...and the odds are pretty good at this point that they're just going to get better. She's at least willing to try...and you're willing to do your part as well.

Quote

Then again she has made it clear that she is having some difficulty with physical affection. She isn't really expressing what might be at the root of it ,but she's trying -I can tell. Any ideas?

Well, I can tell you that we had similar issues, but for a much shorter time than in your case...but my wife's EA was a lot shorter as well. And realize that in our case, the 'fantasy' aspect was pushed quite a bit by the OM...and it got to a point where she thought about him during intimate moments...and that created a LOT of stress for her when we started to become physical in any sense. Perhaps your wife is dealing with something similar.

Another possibility comes to mind too. I hesitate to ask this, but...

How POSITIVE are you that they NEVER had the chance to meet in person? One POSSIBLE cause of this could be that this has proceeded to a PA, and she's dealing with issues from THAT...but I have no idea how likely that is or isn't my friend.

I'm sorry for thinking about that...but it's something I've seen here and on LS too.

Perhaps Cards or 2BN may have better insight for you my friend.

I'm 99.9999999% sure it could have never gotten to a PA -he lives 1000 miles away, doesn't have much in the way of money, by the time the EA began he was out of work and frankly my wife never gets away from the kids. I can't see how he could have come in and had a stealth PA with her. It just isn't logistically possible. Now, we were having physical relations during the EA and as much as it hurts to think about it, I bet she was thinking of him at the time. I imagine this could be part of what is holding her back. But I'm not even looking for sex at this point (although I have to admit, maybe it is the forbidden fruit aspect, but she has never been more physically attractive to me and it kills me to not be able to express those feelings). All I'd like is a spontaneous kiss from her. I do get them occasionally, maybe I'm just in too much of a hurry. But like I said, I'm a bit overwhelmed by my need for physical affection from her and beyond some cuddling at night, I'm not getting much more than the occasional goodbye-kiss/hug. I do try to initiate physical affection myself though in hopes that she will become more comfortable with it as time goes by and maybe can offer more herself. I can tell though that she's trying even if she isn't "feeling " it yet. I just hope that whatever is blocking her can be overcome.

Quote

she has made it clear that she is having some difficulty with physical affection.

This is occurring with me, too, Sys, but I had withdrawn and often rebuffed physical affection even BEFORE the EA. Likewise, I had not offered physical affection. So for us to solve this problem we have had to look some earlier in our M. If this is happening to you only since the EA, I can't really answer to that. I'm assuming you know that in general, women must feel an emotional & intimate connection before being physically intimate. If these needs have not been met for her it is likely to be part of the problem.

As Owl suggests, could there have been any type of a sexual R? I would think that even sexual conversations could have some impact on this.

Sys, no problem for venting. That's what we are all here for.

Quote

I'm assuming you know that in general, women must feel an emotional & intimate connection before being physically intimate. If these needs have not been met for her it is likely to be part of the problem.

Nail on the head I think. My W has told me that her sexual desire for me had diminished a while ago, so like everything else, she never said anything and just "went along with it". So although we had what I thought was good, if not frequent sex, she wasn't really there. Now that it's all out in the open, we can't jsut go back to that. Besides I don't want to go back to that. The illusion was complete, but now that it's been shattered, I don't want anything but a meaningful physical realtionship with her. As you say, I think we need to get back to that emotional and intimate connection.

And yeah, I'm pretty sure they got to some level of sexual conversations -the one I saw that revealed the affair was pretty tame, but clearly intimate. I'm hoping that time will be of help here too. I jsut wish I felt like she was being more active in trying to work it out -seems like she's wating for time to do most of the work. Maybe with time she'll be more willing to "act".

I'm doing a lot of "nice" things for her and trying to fulfill her EN's but there are so many areas that I think we need to engage in that she has held back from me. I wish I could get to those places more easily. Talking about her feelings is a really hard place to go to. She is so hesitant to let me in still even though we are improving in our everday relations, the intimacy aspect is not coming along as well. Maybe we need to build to it slowly. But we're not going to get there without her opeingin up to me at some point. It's so exhausting trying to manage this situation by myself. I feel like she's doing what she can, but I'm trying to do all the active work. Part of it is that our MC is taking a very slow approach, where I'm anxious to get more active in terms of working on us. I'm not sure who's got the right approach.

Maybe I'm just tired from a weekend of really going on overdrive trying to make her feel special and appreciated and loved. I she really did appreciate it and I can't kid myself and expect one great weekend to fix the situation, but man, it is tiring trying so hard all the time to make things better and see marginal improvements if any. I just have this dream of a time when all of this effort pays off and. I ca't quite see when that will be yet -if ever. Still, I'm not giving up. I love her too much and too completely. She cares for me too, I know she does, she just doesn'think she's in-love with me.

Well, like I'd mentioned, I know that my wife went through some similar issues, but not for as long as your wife, Sys. And I too know that there was no PA involved...nor even a lot of sexual discussion...but that 'fantasy' element did come into play, and made it very difficult for my wife to be physically intimate with me for while.

Quote

And yeah, I'm pretty sure they got to some level of sexual conversations

I can tell you that for me I had no interest at all in any kind of sexual discussion with OM until later in the EA AFTER he was showering me with "feelings" which often came in the form of sending IM hearts and kisses. That is amazing to me that something that simple could create that emotional & intimate connection. I was receiving love - and that's all it took! That intimacy easily can EASILY lead to sexual intimacy for women.

Quote

I jsut wish I felt like she was being more active in trying to work it out -seems like she's wating for time to do most of the work. Maybe with time she'll be more willing to "act".

Yes, I'm still feeling this way too, especially about the physical touch - all types of physical touch. Probably still some withdrawal going on. Believe, time is a huge aid here. I am doing incrementally better than I was even a month ago (since my vacation), meaning I have had very few down days where I've felt depressed and felt the loss. As this all subsides, the focus continues to slowly go back to life, M, & H. Let time help you. I do not want my H to push in this area. It's not about OM, it's about working on the issues and finding the way back to H.

Quote

it is tiring trying so hard all the time to make things better and see marginal improvements if any. I just have this dream of a time when all of this effort pays off

Maybe you should back off a little bit if it doesn't appear everything is having an impact. I do not want to feel smothered right now. Notice what things she really seems to appreciate and thank you for. If you burn yourself out and get frustrated and stop, it may really hinder the process. I don't have a lot of advice on this because in addition to working on the M, there is so much in my head about what my individual issues are. I am thinking that it is possible to "over do" it.

I really would recommend the Five Languages of Love book that Owl recommended. It has been more helpful for us than most of the other books. It basically kind of groups the EN's into 5 "languages" - a little more workable than analyzing 10 EN's. One of the languages is physical touch, which we've determined to be my H's language. We pretty much decided that he was not loving me in my language of Acts of Service & Words of Affirmation, which led me to withdraw and not speak his language of Physical Touch. It is very enlightening.

Hi all,
Just thought I'd pop in and give my regards and an update. I lurk and read how things are going with you Cards and 2BN, saying a prayer for your continued success right after the prayer for my own.

Cards, congrats on showing your H this thread and recent disclosures. Between that and 2BN's disclosures, you guys have my admiration cuz I know how hard that is. 2BN, I laughed about the Friday comment from your H...he's obviously craving quiet Friday's at this point.

Owl said:

Quote

why don't all four of us give our best effort to stop posting (and thinking) about the past...and start making the focus of our posts here about the future. What we're doing now to make things better, or what we've got planned to help our spouses and ourselves.

I'm there finally. All my efforts and thoughts are with my H, my children and our recovery. I made that conscious election and I control my thoughts. I decide where I focus my energy and thoughts...they do not control me. The only thing I think about OM is that it is over and he is not a part of my life. That is my closure.

I also have been focusing on the thought that marriage cannot make me happy. In fact, no other person on earth can make me happy. Happiness eminates from within me, and not vice versa. I have been thinking of the things and activities that create happiness within me....and from there it will eminate from me into my family. My happiness will be shared with my H, and the more activities I invest in for myself, can then be shared with him. We are creating a new life.

Cards and 2BN, you're doing so great. I "hear" things in your comments that were never there before. You're leaps and bounds farther ahead than when you first started...I hope you see it like I do. I hope you can keep looking forward. An angel sent Owl to you for guidance. You're wise Owl, and I don't care what you say about that! Owl stuggles too, I know, but we all do and will for some time to come. It's all for a good cause and we work towards recovery.

Things are going good for me. I'm only a couple of weeks ahead of you and am feeling good. I feel much more focused on my H instead of OM and more importantly, instead of me. I've put him through a lot and am ready to help him now. No more "me me me". I have moments, but time really helps.

Anyhoo, I wanted mostly to provide encouragement and say I admire your strength. By the end of this journey, I fully expect to be smarter, wiser and more savy about what it means to be married and what love is all about.
GS

PS - gave my H a wedding ring this last weekend. He lost his in the first year of our marriage and for the last 19 years never wore one. Didn't seem important. Well, this time there was no ceremony, no rituals, fancy clothes or planned event. But, I feel like I know more now what it really means to be married. A painful road to self-discovery, but I understand so much more know.

Good morning everyone! I wasn't able to get back on here yesterday and I just got caught up with everything.

Gentlsoul - It's good to hear from you! It's such an encouragement to see you and your H are recovering and doing so well! That was such a wonderful thing for you to do for your H with the wedding ring! I do remember reading somewhere that you H had lost it years ago. My H had lost his original wedding ring within the first year of our marriage as well! That very day we bought him a new one on our way home from where he lost it. (he lost it at the beach in the water)

After I read through what everyone wrote yesterday, I had some thoughts of my own and a few questions. It was touched by everyone about the sexual conversations with the OM. For me I seemed to have defined when the EA started by when the sexual conversations started, but now I'm not so sure? I felt a gradual liking and connection to the OM over the period of 6 - 7 months before we admitted any 'feelings' toward each other, but the very moment we outwardly exressed our feelings, the sexual conversations started. It was hard for us to refrain from these intimate conversations once we got started. So, maybe my EA was really longer than I thought? Any thoughts here? Also Cards, you had talked about the OM sending hearts and such through IM's. I know for me once our feelings were out, we started with hearts on our emails and 'I love you's' beginning and ending our emails. I guess for me, it was that 'constant' love and affection and words of affirmation from the OM that I craved. I also felt that both the OM and I needed this in our lives as I think about what he shared about his M to me.

Another thought. Cards you had mentioned that you like to write out things and your H does not. I had thought I had wanted some of this from my H as well, but I realize he is a face-to-face person. I had emailed my H several times, but he told me he prefers face to face. That is a big reason he is not interested in reading on these forums or writing on these forums as well. I have to accept that in him. The OM had told me several times that he and his W were not good face-to-face, but rather wrote out and emailed all of "their problems". He had actually emailed me excerpts of her emails at times. I don't think I would want a M where I couldn't speak to my H face-to-face regarding our issues. I'm sure they did at times, but they were able to verbalize better by writing for some reason.

Also it seems that most of you can 'remember' what your M was like before the EA's. For me, I cannot remember! It has been too long for me when all of this started, that I'm not really too sure what our life was like before the EA's. I don't remember feeling like I was missing anything in my life and I'm sure I was 'content' in my M. But, how did these OM make me 'feel' all of a sudden that I wasn't content?

Cards - I think you are doing great with being able to discuss your love languages with your H! You two are really starting to communicate so much more!

2BN -

Quote

it was that 'constant' love and affection and words of affirmation from the OM that I craved. I also felt that both the OM and I needed this in our lives as I think about what he shared about his M to me.

MOST DEFINITELY!!!!! This = Emotional Affair!!!!

Sorry for the exclamation, 2B, but this was it exactly for me. I will write again later....... but had to respond to this!!

Good morning all!

GS- I DO believe that God has had a hand in guiding all of us in recovering our marriages...I KNOW for a fact that He's been completely responsible for recovering mine. There are too many things that 'fell into place', and too many things that 'just happened' to work out fortuitiously in our recovery for me to believe that this could have been anything less than His plan. I don't know what His plan is for me coming here, or for me providing my insight into things to others, but it's what I've felt compelled to do.

It was a year ago today that I learned of my wife's EA. And I remember praying hard...but I prayed for God to make happen what He wanted to happen...I didn't ask for anything for myself.

My M is FAR better today than it was a year ago today...it's far better today than what it was TWO years ago, long before the A. I wouldn't ever have wanted to go through what we've been through, but at least I can see the good that has come out of it.

2BN-
I would say that your EA did begin before the timeframe that you're thinking of...in truth, it began the moment you started sharing things with the OM(s) that should have been shared with your husband. But I would also say that it doesn't matter...because that's in the past. As long as you know NOW where to make boundaries in your dealings with opposite sex friends, and you and your husband are working to improve your R to a point where you're not at risk for another A, then it's all good.

I wouldn't worry about not knowing 'how your M was before the EA's'. The build your M to be what you want it to be NOW. You've learned a lot about your needs from all of this, use that knowledge to help strengthen your R with your husband then. And at the same time, use this opportunity to do the same thing FOR YOUR HUSBAND too!

Cards (and Sys)-
You're totally right about how the intimacy of FEELINGS precedes the sexual intimacy...and believe it or not, it often works that way for men too. So it's not really surprising to find that the emotional intimacy has to be built up first before the physical intimacy can begin to return after a crisis like what we've all been through here.

Well, I'm not going to let my d-day anniversary get me down. I've committed myself to focusing on how much better things ARE NOW, rather than how bad things were then. Here's to hoping we all have a great day today!

Quote

I would say that your EA did begin before the timeframe that you're thinking of...in truth, it began the moment you started sharing things with the OM(s) that should have been shared with your husband.

Owl, I was thinking this as well as I have reflected over this. I guess the hard thing for me to fathom, if this is true, is that I was having 2 EA's simultaneously then! I know this doesn't matter since it's in the past, but I never really thought of it this way until recently.

I also have not shared this before and I believe this is an important fact to mention. Before my H and I were married, I had an A with a married man for a period over 2 years and leading right up to my M. My H didn't realize anything physical had occurred with this man until after our first year of M, and I was quite vague to my H at that time. Now, jump ahead 15 years in our M, my H learned the entire truth of this A and it hit my H like it was yesterday! It was devastating to him and took alot to get over it. I don't really think we ever dealt with it properly our entire M, and then 2 years after I had exposed this A (which was prior to our M)...I started another A. I have alot of 'digging internally' to do here to try to figure out why I let this happen again and again in my life.

So, previous to these most current A's, there were still issues that my H and I were dealing with in this area.

Quote

Well, I'm not going to let my d-day anniversary get me down. I've committed myself to focusing on how much better things ARE NOW, rather than how bad things were then.

This is great Owl!

2BN-

Have you ever done any individual counseling? I'm not bashing you here my friend, but it sounds to me like you should seriously look for something along these lines to help you sort out why you've behaved in the manner that you have.

It sounds to me like you've got a VERY strong husband to have weathered all of this...I do hope that you seriously look at what changes you both need to make, so that you don't lose him if this kind of behavior continues.

I'd forgotten...do you and your husband do MC right now? If not, I'd SERIOUSLY recommend that you both consider that as well...now that ALL of the truth is out there, I would think that it would do you both a world of good...and would help you both sort through a lot of this as well.

Owl, I've never done IC. I mentioned this to my H, but never looked into it. Right now we are so swamped with life that I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I hadn't mentioned the A prior to my M before because I didn't want that to play into what I've been going through, but I really do think it's all tied together somehow. Funny thing is that I told all of my failures regarding this to the OM, and he still wanted me! I don't get it, because I wouldn't 'want' a person who did what I did. But the OM had an A about 4-5 years prior, and I seemed to have wanted him. I guess we overlook these things when we are in the 'fantasy'.

My H and I are not in MC right now. We had only gone to a few sessions. We had told the MC about this A prior to our M, but she didn't really offer much help with that relating to the more recent A's. What we didn't like, is that the MC 'seemed' to know who this person was I had the A with. We didn't give our MC the name of this man, but only the context of where it happened. Our MC wanted us to reveal this man's name to her to see if she was right. We would not. My H and both felt this was very unprofessional of her.

My H is a very strong man. Each time, he said he could not take one more....but somehow he did. I really want and desire to make my life and M better, not only for my H, but for me as well.

Hello all,

I haven't posted in a while but I've been lurking now and then. It's good to see some of you are doing so well. It's been hard for me to post much because my H reads everything I post so it's not easy to be open with my feelings. We haven't been doing that well, both of our faults.

Owl I have a question for you. Your wife was ready to run away with the OM so she must have had pretty strong feelings for him. Don't take this the wrong way but, how was she able to fall back in love with you? I'm struggling with this right now. Did she have to wait until the withdrawl was over? How long did her A last?

I don't know if my H and I can work things out. I feel like i've been so hurt over the years that it's hard to get past it. Now he's ready to change but it might be too late. I was just wondering since it sounds like your wife was almost ready to leave how you were able to turn it around.

win

Win-

I'm not sure on exactly how to answer your question, but I'll do my best.

My wife's EA lasted a few months...I'm not sure (nor is she at this point) on exactly how long...no more than 4 months, but the "I love you" phase was about 6-8 weeks I think.

In my wife's case, she felt as though she was slowly falling out of love with me as she fell more and more in love with OM. I got the standard "I love you, but not in love with you" speech on d-day. She isn't the kind of person who can easily be 'in love' with two people at the same time, and since she was investing emotionally in OM at the time and not me...you get the picture.

Once the EA was ended, and the contact between them broken up to the point where they weren't really able to be emotionally intimate, her withdrawl hit HARD, and it lasted for almost a month. But, during that time, I was 'plan Aing' without even knowing what that was...all I knew was that I loved her, and that she was hurting, and that I wanted to do whatever she needed to be better.

She really never stopped loving me through all of this...she just couldn't see her love for me because she was blinded by the OM. Once he was irrevocably out of the picture, and I was still there, still loving her, she came back to me. It took time for her to truly realize what she was feeling, but it was there.

Win, I'll be honest with you friend. I suspect that in your case, you don't WANT to give your husband the chance at this point. You're afraid that what happened will always be held against you if you DO stay with him. You're not sure if the changes he's made will stand, but I would be surprised if that is the real issue that's holding you back...it seems to me that it's more that you're afraid of what life going forward will be like if you do stay.

I'm also curious...if you've gone this whole time with NO contact at all with your OM??

Just my thoughts friend...please don't be offended.

Owl,
I'm not really afraid that he's going to hold the A against me at all. Rather I have so much resentment and pain from what happened before the A. I knew I was falling out of love with H before I even met the OM. I just didn't want to deal with it. H was always more interested in shutting me out and playing video games 5-6 hrs a night, until 2-3am. Only getting off the pc for sex. I asked, I yelled, I got mad and told him that we needed to spend more time together and he just shut me out. He also would take trips with his friends, lying to me about how long it would be until the last minute because he knew I'd get mad. He'd say "you'll live" when I complained about him being away from the children and I for 10 days. THEN he wouldnt even call for days!

I think I felt shut out and shut down for a long time before the A began. I know I was lonely and bored so I began chatting with people. It felt so good to have someone who loved and cared about me and wanted to talk to me. I couldn't help it, I fell in love. I don't think at that point I was in love w/my H. I just don't know how or if I can go back. I told H a few months ago, that I was unhappy. The A had been going on for 6 mo. at that time, but it didn't really have anything to do with the A, I was unhappy w/ my M. He didn't really address my issues. He said he didn't know how to give more and basically I asked for too much.

Well, NC. I have not maintained NC with OM. We didn't talk for a few weeks and then we had a kind of closure. He said he was sorry about what happened and thought we should both move on. It did help me. We are still friends and talk from time to time about music. He's made it clear he doesn't want more. He has told me about his new gf.

OM isn't what is holding me back from M. I feel the fog lifting more everyday, but I don't see any clear answers. Now H has said maybe we should break up because he can't take the drama anymore and doesn't see me being in love with him anymore.

win

Win-

I can imagine how difficult it is for you. It sounds like your H and my W were doing similar things...for at least a year prior to her online EA, she would log 16+ hour days playing online games...ignored the house, the kids, me...etc... It boils down to two things, IMHO.

One- You BOTH have the choice to let go of the past. It's the only way that either of you can heal...period. If you continue to hold the past against him, and/or he holds the past against you, then you'll NEVER be happy. That's just bottom line.

Two- I know that you feel that the OM has nothing to do with the lack of feeling for your H. But I've been around enough to know that that just isn't true Win. Ask ANYONE on this site, and they'll tell you that it's just not possible for you to begin to reconnect with your H if you're still in ANY kind of contact with your OM. You're not going to be willing to give your H the chance. I realize that you feel that your case is different...but EVERYONE feels that way when they've been in your shoes. I know my wife felt that what SHE went through wasn't the same kind of thing...but now a year later, she can recognize that it WAS. Think about it...seriously think about it. And ask around on the board.

Quote

I know that you feel that the OM has nothing to do with the lack of feeling for your H. But I've been around enough to know that that just isn't true Win. Ask ANYONE on this site, and they'll tell you that it's just not possible for you to begin to reconnect with your H if you're still in ANY kind of contact with your OM.

Hi Win - I just wanted to reinforce what Owl stated above. This is ENTIRELY TRUE. I still had some contact with the OM after D-Day and I know it prevented me from totally reconnecting with my H. It's impossible to reconnect in your M, if you still have a connection at all with the OM. I was able to reconnect somewhat, but not until I entirely let go of everything with the OM was I able to start the emotional connection with my H and M.

Owl,
It's very hard to let go of the past, when you've been hurt. HE still has selfish behaviors that I don't know if he can overcome. Withdrawl has been very difficult. The A lasted for a year and I have many memories of last year at this time. I've told H over and over that I needed some time to get over withdrawl before I could think clearly. He hasn't been very able to give that to me. He keeps LB me about it. We are in MC and she says that we need to deal with the resentment to get over it. It's been very hard.

What can I say about the OM. I understand you all say I should have NC with him. The contact certainly doesn't give me the thrill it used to. We're not close anymore. Most of our intimacy was on the phone and we haven't spoken since January. I know that I still have withdrawl from the relationship. All I can say is it's been hard. I don't really talk to him that much anyways so I should just stop.

-win

Quote

I don't really talk to him that much anyways so I should just stop.

Yes Win, stopping would be best for everyone. I know. I've been where you are. There are memories and the more you continue with the contact, the more those memories will linger even if you aren't talking in the same way as when you both were in the A.

I understand it's very difficult for you to let go of the past with your H, but if your M is going to have any chance at all, NC has to be in place.

Yes, I've been dealing with the OM and the withdrawl. But I've also been trying to figure out the M. I'm not sure I had feelings before the A. I know you may not believe me but I distinctly remember thinking 1 1/2 years ago, am I sure i want to buy a house with this man when I'm not sure I love him anymore. But I didn't know how to force him to deal with our issues. He always has a way of arguing me into a corner so that my feelings are discounted. Fine he wins the arguement, but I still have the bad feelings. And I feel like he didn't even listen to them.

He's trying to change, but he even said last night, he doesn't know if he can be unselfish. We've been so set in a pattern of dealing with eachother, as you all know, it's hard to break.

I can't just say, oh well, I won't think about how I felt ignored and controlled for 10 years and move on. Unless I pretend, and I did enough of that the last few years. I just can't do it anymore. I want to be real with myself and my feelings. This is what they are. It will take time to change them. And I don't think that every marriage that follows the MB rules can necessarily work. You all must know it's not that easy. To follow a formula and then be in love. There has to be something there.

I know I need to do my part and try, but it doesn't mean that it will work. There's no guarantees and I don't want to settle anymore.

-win

Quote

I know I need to do my part and try, but it doesn't mean that it will work. There's no guarantees and I don't want to settle anymore.

But Win, you'll never know for sure unless you DO your part.

I agree...there are marriages and situations where reconciliation may not be possible...the people involved may not be able to change, or the damage done to each other may be too great to overcome...but THERE IS NO WAY TO KNOW UNLESS YOU DO YOUR PART.

And your part in this would start by starting a REAL NC.

This is up to you...it's your life. If you decide to give up on your M, there is nothing anyone can do to change that. But remember this....there is NO WAY that your marriage stands a chance of getting better if you don't do your part. Its just not possible.

Owl,
Yes you are right. I understand. It's very hard to try when your heart isn't in it. I guess I should try and fake it and if we don't make it then at least I've tried. In a way, to me, trying feels like giving up. I don't know why that is. But I guess that's where I am.

I will work on NC. There hasn't been that much contact. I really can't think about never talking to him again, but I will. It will be better for me anyways. Really I just don't want to think about either one of them. I just want some peace.

Win-

I don't think that anyone who's at the point you are right now has their heart in their M. There is rarely much desire to reconcile when you're still in the withdrawl/fog. I know that my wife had no real desire to work things out with me at that point...but look at us now!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Something else to consider friend. You've mentioned that you weren't happy for years prior to the A...can I share with you that my wife made the exact same statement to me when she was still in the EA, and for a while afterwards while she was still in withdrawl/etc... This drove me crazy, because I just couldn't see it...I KNEW that we had had problems for about a year prior to to the A, but for years?!?! I just couldn't see it.

So, once the A is over, and the withdrawl finally starts to wind down, her perception changed. Over time, it went from many years to the last few years, down finally to what I knew was right....for the last year or so. But when she was still dealing 'foggy', she was convinced that it was years.

That doesn't mean that you're wrong, that in your case that it hasn't been years. What I'm trying to say is that your current perception of your M as a whole is probably somewhat distorted by your overall mood and situation...it seems far more hopeless to you now than it might to someone standing out and looking in.

Several people here have used the phrase "Fake it til you make it". It really CAN work, as long as both of you are working toward the same idea.

Good luck friend...and keep us posted!

Owl,
I wasn't referring to my perception of my marriage right now. I know that it is distorted from the fog. I was referring to feelings I had BEFORE the A. Things I remember thinking years ago. I busied myself with the kids and the house so I wouldn't think so much about being unhappy in my marriage. The one good thing the A did do, is make us face the reality and get my H's attention. Because nothing I had done prior would ever work. In hindsight I should have stood up more and given him an ultimatum. He now knows how serious things are and has changed a few things. But there are still selfish things he does that he doesn't realize. I'm trying to let him know every time it happens.

I can try faking it. But I don't want to slip back into my complacent self. AND I don't want him to think everything is fine now and not continue to address these serious issues. Plus I don't want to get his hopes up and then decide things aren't going to work out after all. I guess that's where I am. So I really haven't done anything. We have been in MC, and it's been slow and difficult. He's been very defensive about it. I just don't want to settle for something so-so. I may have done that when I was young by just staying with him since I was 16, because I was afraid. I can't do that anymore.

-win

Win, you sound like you have a lot in common with my wife and our situation. You sound a lot like she did a few months back in the immediate aftermath of d-day. I can't tell you that we are all hunky-dory now, but I can tell you that we went from her telling me "I WANT to WANT this to work out but I'm 99% convinced this marriage is dead, I don't love you, I love OM" to a sincere, NC, sincere "I love yous", and " I WANT this work out". A month or two ago she told me she wasn't ready to work on us, that she was still dealing with the withdrawal, she didn't want to talk or anything, she just suffered. Here we are 3 months past d-day, 8 weeks of NC and I can honestly say we both have hope.

That said, we both agree that we aren't anywhere near where we want to be , but we can both see that it could work out and we are going to do what we both can to get there. I have complained out here a lot about a lack of progress. Honestly, I'm just impatient for my wife to feel the way I do (totally, head-over-heels in love), I think this has made it hard for me to see all the progress we have made.

Enough about me -Win, I don't know you or your husband, but in my situation, what I want more than anything is to talk to my wife. No matter how hard -I need openness and honesty from her about what she's feeling, what she's planning and where she thinks we are and what we can do to make it better. So much of our trouble came about b/c we didn't know how to talk about the hard stuff and we let it slide and build up. We thought were had a great relationship b/c we never argued. Now we are learning to talk, a little bit at a time. Talking is going to heal us and get us back together. It sounds like your husband has put up quite a wall against hurt -maybe he's not as tough as he sounds. Maybe you can show him that you can both talk about painful things without attacking each other -just accepting the hurt and trying your level best to accept the emotions as legitimate and that the troubles between you can be resolved.

Faking it isn't the only thing to do -you need to couple it with working on the things that caused the A in the first place. I think that faking it though might help bring back those old feelings -kind of pad the way on an otherwise painful path to recovery.

I can see in you the same confusion my wife had and still has to some extent. I can't help but think that any delay in your recovery though may well be due to continued contact with the OM -just end it. I t will do you and your H more good than I can tell you. I n fact, it's essential. Any thought on your part that it's OK, or benign is simply confused thinking.

So anyway folks, I hope you all noticed the watershed moment I alluded to above. Yesterday my wife said "I WANT this to work". She had no idea how much that meant to me. We're not there, but I think we're both on the road now. She wants to talk, and I think we layed out some good ground rules and made it clear that talk was vital at this point.

Sys-

Glad to hear that things are starting to look up a little for you!! Keep up the work and hope, my friend!

Win-

Basically, what I was trying to tactfully say was that your memory of what the marriage was like before the A is probably not as accurate at this point as it would have been pre-A. Your memory of those prior events is colored by your current situation and feelings...so it's possible that what you feel your marriage was like prior to the A wouldn't match up at all with how you would have described the same time frame PRIOR to the A.

I'm not sure if I'm making any sense or not. Perhaps Cards or 2BN might be able to explain this a little better.

I think that Sys has the right of it too...fake it til you make it only works if you're doing the rest of it...meaning working on the issues that lead to the A, and most of all...COMMUNICATING.

I can say that my wife really started communicating with me once the A was out in the open...because at that point, she felt as though she had nothing to lose by being honest with me...for the first time in a LONG time. Perhaps this would be a point for you and Bass to start at...start TALKING about what you're really feeling and thinking. And start LISTENING to each other. Quit reacting instictively to what's being said, and respond to each other as respectfully as possible. Sometimes agree to disagree. Make THAT the first step after fully commiting to NC, and see where THAT leads you in a few weeks/months. I'd bet you'll be amazed. Again, think about it...it was that kind of communication that LEAD to the A happening...and it CAN lead you back to each other as well.

Crads

I wanted closeur too. These were my choices:
1. Stay married and "forget" OW
2. Leave W and be with OW....nope not
possible OW didn't want that
3. Live alone in a cave somewhere
4. Find out why I made the choice to have an A
what was missing in me and how my choices
not only determine my happiness but the
happiness of those closest to me. To become
a whole person who could have a real
relationship with the one who really wanted
to be with me.

H
( I chose #4)

Quote

Crads

I wanted closeur too. These were my choices:
1. Stay married and "forget" OW
2. Leave W and be with OW....nope not
possible OW didn't want that
3. Live alone in a cave somewhere
4. Find out why I made the choice to have an A
what was missing in me and how my choices
not only determine my happiness but the
happiness of those closest to me. To become
a whole person who could have a real
relationship with the one who really wanted
to be with me.

H
( I chose #4)

OK Hiker ... you've TOTALLY redeemed yourself ... I retract my previous telling you to "shaddup" ... you are da'bomb!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hope everyone is doing well today.

I'm really doing some struggling today and need to verbalize it here. If you (Owl, Cards, Sys) remember when the OM sent an email of forgiveness to my H about 2 weeks ago, the OM stated that he registered under a new name on the forum where he posts. I honestly wish he didn't write that information to my H!! Because what do I do???? I found him! It's not too difficult to find someone in which you know their writing style (since I talked to him for many months) and know what topics he would most likely write on. And yes, I verified and know "for sure" it's him. He apparently uses the same password over and over again for everything he does online and I was able to log on with his s/n. I KNOW this is wrong (for me to do that)!! But why do I do this??!! Does this OM want me to find him by using this same password? I mean why not use a different password, or maybe he doesn't think that I would be so bold to try it?? I haven't told my H this and not sure if I can or will. Why can't I just be strong enough to not look on that forum?? I really enjoy reading there, but why do I have to "not go there" because "he" is there??

I'm sorry I'm just venting here, but I really need some sense knocked into me and some help with why I keep torturing myself!

2BN-

SIGH...

YOU are the only one who can stop you from doing these things.

You've been doing great...but you keep doing this stuff, and it's going to be the end of your marriage if you don't quit. Seriously, everyone has a final limit of what they can take, and if you can't draw the line in the sand at some point, your husband may!

As long as you keep going back to this site, as long as you keep doing all these little betrayals that keep the EA going in your mind, you're NOT going to fully recover your marriage. That's about all I can say. You KNOW this...it's TIME to start doing it!!

Help me!

There's so much going on here on this thread and my time has been limited. I want to talk to you all. Does anyone know how I can "reply" to several responses in the same post? When I choose "reply" it only shows me the body of that one post. Is there an easier way? Thanks!

Owl, is it really a betrayal from your point of view (as a BS) to go to that site? It's a Christian forum and I do enjoy reading the posts there. Honestly if the OM would have never told my H that detail, I probably wouldn't have found him there. I happened to run across a post that seemed like a reply of his and it checked out to be him.

Sometimes I want to be mean and "call him out" on the forum publicly for "who he is". But then again, "who am I?" for what I am doing right??

I'm very frustrated with myself and I know it's only ME that can make me stop, but I'm having trouble. Seriously!

Cards, scroll down to the bottom of the last post and use Quick Reply. That's what I've been doing, so I can see what everyone has posted. You can then scroll back and forth between what you are posting and what others have posted.

2BN-

YES!!! I DO SEE IT AS A BETRAYAL.

You're NOT just going there to read the forums...as you've proven to yourself this morning!

Even NOW...a year later...my wife and I have debated the use of MSN messenger because that's what her and the OM used to communicate, and he used his work 'address', so it's bound to still be there and active. She's got no temptation to talk to him or anything now...but neither of us really want to even raise that little bit of doubt. Even though there are a myriad of other ways that contact could happen, it's the INTENT, and the taking the chance that it COULD happen that is the betrayal.

OM has started logging back into the game we played...guess what...pretty much without even thinking about it, my wife and I have all but quit playing it for now. Or the few times we HAVE played, it's been on other servers where we don't think he's ever there.

Think about this...and think HARD. It's ONE MORE THING that you're going to have to tell your husband about now...

You're comment about "I really enjoy reading there, but why do I have to "not go there" because "he" is there??" really struck a chord in me...when my wife was still in the last vestiges of fog, she was insistent that she should still be allowed to remain friends with the OM. "Why should I have to give up that friendship because it crossed the line once?!?!" All I can say is...."Why would you NOT give it up if it's a step you have to take to save your marriage???"

Sorry my friend...not going to let you slide on this one. You're a good person...now take the steps you need to!

I understand most of what you are saying, Owl, but I am not talking to the OM at all. Yes, he happens to post there, but I'm not posting on the threads where he is. I was JUST reading there JUST to read, but as soon as I found out he changed his s/n, yes I do admit that I was looking to see where he may post. For what? I really cannot explain why? I'm not going to start communicating with him. The OM has turned off his PM feature to his s/n, so no one can contact him through PM's and that includes ME! I cannot contact him unless I wrote directly to him on a thread and I won't do that. The OM has only made 9 posts since April 21. He does not post very often for me to "follow him" with what he may say.

I had asked my H awhile ago if it's ok for me to read on that forum. He said OK. Now this was before he knew the OM registered under a new s/n. My H has no understanding of even how these forums work, nor does he really even care to try to understand. When I told my H how the OM and I had met and that we had PM'd each other for many months before we switched to email, my H said he has no idea what that is. I may sound like I'm trying to justify here, but really what is the harm in reading there?

Hmmm....what is the harm in reading there?

Well, you may run into the OM there....oops, that's already happened.

Well, if you saw him there, you might do something to see if you could see how he's doing, maybe even log into his account....wait, done that too.

Can't you see how constantly going back to the site where you 'met' the OM is going to do nothing but provide you with a constant reminder of what was? Not even including the fact THAT HE'S STILL THERE. Just going there keeps that 'wound' open. Add to that the fact that you now know he's there, and it's even worse yet.

It sounds to me like you're looking for any reason you can to keep going there...regardless of what impact it may have on you or your M.

Look...my last comment on this. Do you think your husband is going to be OK with you going back to that forum now if he knows that the OM still posts and goes there? Do you think that he'll be ok with the fact that you hacked the OM's account when you suspected it was him? Do you feel he'll just calmly accept all of this, and not have any heartburn about it?? Q.E.D.

2B, I had a simialr situation. My W was involved in an on-line game with the OM -they were in the same guild. Even after she stopped playing, she remained in touch with the guild via their website and forums. It killed me to know that he was there. I could see the forums so I knew there was no back and forth between them but just the idea that they were there in the same place, seeing eachother's posts even made me a wreck (yes it may be irrational but isn't that what these tings are all about?).

She has pretty much stepped away from it now and I know that he left the guild and so isn't around out there. Now I feel like that one thing is gone and I feel much better. My reaction isn't as strong as Owl's, but my perspective is different. Either way, it's probably best to go find a new forum and just leave OM behind -forever. Otherwise, really your at best handicapping yourself and at worst, ruining you efforts.

2BN -

Thanks for the posting tip! I have to respond to you immediately, right NOW, because this seems like an emergency!!!

Is this a betrayal? I think you know that it really is - ask your H that question. I believe he would feel betrayed. He believes that you have been working hard to rid yourself physically & emotionally from OM. It's also betraying yourself and your M. You HAVE worked HARD to this point. How will you feel if you continue and next thing you know you're chatting with him on the forum? You will feel awful and defeated.

You HAVE to stop because this manifests itself as CONTACT even though it's only one way. We all know what the CONTACT does to us - it draws us back in emotionally, which is what this is all about. It re-starts the addiction. I KNOW you KNOW that.

2BN, I empathize with you so much. Fortunately, for me, I do not have the temptations to come face to face with my OM online as we did not have any "sophisticated" secret ways of communicating. I am not saying that I haven't looked or watched for him where we met, but we have not run into each other. I KNOW that I would struggle with this too. This is Win's struggle, too.

I can't remember exactly all your contact dates, but what was the longest period of time of no contact? Remember how it got better and better? Now, since the whole e-mail thing you have sort of started back to square one. You have to gut through some of that withdrawal AGAIN!

You can do it. Your H is counting on that. Like OWL said, don't risk it again. Maybe you have to cut yourself off from the pc totally. Is that possible? (of course that would cut you off from this site as well). You also need to dig deep into yourself to see why you have these patterns. You have needs that haven't been addressed long before these 2 EA's.

I'm so sorry that you are struggling. Go back and read the advice that you have given to me and others on this thread - AND TAKE IT!!!

2BN,
I agree with Cards and Owl completely. OM can no longer be a part of your life in any way...let go.
GS

Thanks for your thoughts Sys and Owl. Yes, I know it's ruining me to know that he's there. As soon as the OM wrote that piece of information to my H, I knew I was in trouble with wanting to see if he posts. I have changed my s/n on that site and I have NOT told the OM this. I have only posted a few times with that s/n, but will no longer post now.

In either of your opinions, why would you think the OM let my H know that he changed his s/n? I had thought it was to make my H at peace to know that I won't see him posting there anymore, but in reality, by the OM stating this, it made me a wreck inside. He didn't need to say this because by him saying that he changed his s/n, he was letting me and my H know that he still plans to post there. How dumb is that?? Why not do it quietly so I would not know?

Quote

You HAVE to stop because this manifests itself as CONTACT even though it's only one way. We all know what the CONTACT does to us - it draws us back in emotionally, which is what this is all about. It re-starts the addiction. I KNOW you KNOW that.

Cards - Thanks for replying. So we need to count this as contact even if I just read his posts??? I am not communicating with him and he has no clue I know who he is on the forum. I am not secretly talking to him. I just read his 9 posts on the forum which really don't even tell me anything of what's going on in his life.

I really wish I wasn't so tempted to keep checking. It's a real problem I have! I can't possibly be off a pc at all! I work on a pc all day.

I've run out of time here as I need to go...just to let you all know that I've known about the OM's s/n since last Thursday. I am just now admitting this and I seriously think I need some serious help with my temptations!

2BN-

"why would you think the OM let my H know that he changed his s/n"

In a word, 2BN, IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!! This is the same kind of stuff I obssessed about - in our last conversation why did he say he'd see me on the site, why did he say don't call me "for awhile", why did he say this?, why did he say that? IT DOESN'T MATTER!! You can't get in his head and understand his thinking. You both agreed it was over, you agreed that it was wrong, he said there would be no more contact. It doesn't matter what was in his head at all. YOU know it was wrong, and YOU decided for yourself to save your marriage. If you are committed to your M it doesn't matter, even if he did it intentionally to try to stay in touch.

Sorry for being harsh, 2BN, but I know you have to hear it this way!

2BN-

What does the OM's motivations in this MATTER?!?! Who cares WHY he did what he did...it should be irrelevant to you at this point. The fact that you're even asking that question should clearly point out to you the danger you're in again.

THIS is why I suggested you seek individual counseling. You need to find a way to deal with these temptations when you have them.

This still counts as contact...because you're watching him interact with others at least. It's the same as if you were standing in a room watching him talk to someone else across the way.

So when are you going to take this to your husband?

I hear what you all are telling me.....I just have a question...Am I that 'abnormal' to be obsessed with this? My apologies if I state this incorrectly, but Owl, your wife was still logging into the same site where the OM was. Sys, your wife was still on the same site where the OM was. Cards, you said you still look where you met the OM even though you have not "seen him". I know Owl, you say your W was not trying to find the OM, but it was still being in danger of running into the OM. When did she stop this? Will there be a point when I'll stop obsessing? I just don't know how to have the willpower to stop looking there! I know in my head all that I did was wrong and yes it would hurt my H to know...especially logging into the OM's s/n to verify it was him. I KNOW it's wrong. I would want to tell the OM that I know his s/n and tell him to stop posting so I am not tempted to look there!!! I KNOW I can't do that, so it's really up to me! Way back when my H and I were in MC, my H told the MC that I was still looking at that site back then and she told me to stop. She told me to think of everything about the OM as 'fat' as if I were on a diet and to stay away!

Also, if I never mentioned this before, I never really posted much on that forum to begin with. I mostly only read and then I posted to get help with the first OM. I probably posted less than 30 posts on that site. I was mostly a reader. But...the OM started to "help me" through the PM's. That's where I posted most with him. Not that any of this matters, but just know I wasn't a regular poster there.

I probably won't be on here again until tomorrow. I do appreciate all of you trying to help me. I knew I had to be honest with this so I would "come clean" with it and do something about it!

I would say that you're not abnormal...but you DO seem to have an issue with self-control. It's really just a matter of setting limits, and stay within those limits....PERIOD.

As far as how long will you be 'obsessed'...it depends on a few things. One of those is how often will you give IN to that obsession? If you give in easily, you'll stay obsessed longer. If you can use some self restraint, you will find it gets easier to deal with the obsession when you're not giving in to it as often. And since you've found yourself in multiple situations where you've been 'emotionally wayward', it seems to me that this is a key area that you need to seek counseling on. Boundaries...it's all about setting boundaries and sticking to them.

I hope that you're planning on bringing your husband in on this latest development. If he knows that you're going there, I'd hope that he could help you develop a plan for dealing with this as well.

I had posted replies but it didn't take, now I forgot what I wrote! Anyway...

2B-
I don't think you are abnormal at all. I can relate. My OM has a website that I was checking daily and emailing him occasionlly through. I didn't think it was contact just looking at his page to see what he was up to. I guess it is still contact? It's just part of the addiction of the A? But you are not alone in trying to find restraint! I'm still struggling with it!

-win

2BN & Win

The three of us all are in same boat. We are ALL 3 still going through the pain of withdrawal. We have differences in our stories and have been at different stages on and off, but the end result is that we've all had trouble letting go (like MOST WS's). You are certainly not abnormal, 2BN, I and Win totally understand the pull. We understand the obsession, too.

I have certainly not been infallible in the area of breaking away - you all know about the things I kept, etc, but I have had longer no contact at this point than both of you. I really believe that is the KEY if you can only persevere. 2BN, even though it doesn't sound harmful to just read OM posts, remember our discussions about the smallest little triggers putting OM back in our heads? If you were to actually be on a site at the same time that could prove to be too much temptation. Who knows what would happen next? Then what???

I can tell you that each week has gotten easier for me. Think of GS's story. At 10 weeks she felt very strong, and now she is focusing on her H totally. Win, even if you're unsure about where the M is going, the process of withdrawing from OM will help you at least focus on that issue, just as you and Owl have been discussing. I have seen in myself the pull diminish just in the last 4 weeks. 2BN, I do recognize that both yours and Win's EA's were much longer than mine, which probably makes the withdrawal period much longer than mine & GS's. That means you need to give yourself more time. Don't expect to be over it quickly - expect that you will have to allow a block of time of no contact.

I can't help but think the recent upheaval with the email situation has taken you back. Those were necessary steps for you to take, but unfortunately brought you back too close to the situation. Yes, I admit to noticing if OM is on my card site and THANKFULLY he is not - I am very lucky in that regard. And Sys' W and Owl's W hit their sites, too. But that doesn't make it OK, it just prolongs the healing.

You both have much more pc knowledge than me, 2B & Win. You may just have to figure out a way to put OM out of reach, because having them lurking is just too tempting. Surely there is some way to irreversibly block the s/n and websites?

As far as the definition of contact, I think it really should be defined as ANYTHING that puts the thoughts and memories back in your head. We've all talked about the little pieces of things we saved, and we've all admitted those to be "triggers". In a way these things act like contact and re-addict us in the same way as a conversation might.

You know ALL this stuff. I care about both of you, we've shared a lot here. We've supported each other and I want you both to be able to move forward and have clarity with regards to your M. All this I am saying also helps reinforce things in my mind, too.

Step by step, ladies.

Good morning everyone! Thank you all for your words and concern.

Win - I can understand how you feel with having trouble going to the OM's website. We have this curiosity and addiction to still look where the OM may be! It is very hard to break that addiction!

This is a very difficult thing for me not to go to that site. I have been going to that site and reading there most every day (and several times a day) for well over a year. It's a hard habit that I need to break because the OM is there. Just to clarify, Cards, on this site, I cannot tell if the OM is logged on or actually looking there when I'm there. I can only read his posts which aren't many. There has only been 9 posts (as of yesterday) over a 3 week period. That is really not alot of activity, so most days when I've been on that site he has not posted.

I would have to say that reading the OM's posts do not pull me back into thoughts of the A at all. It's more of a curiosity about what he would write and it left me with NO feelings of "wanting him". If anything, I got mad that he is posting and more mad at myself for finding him! Duh...that could have been prevented right??!! But at the same time, yes, it lets me know he's still around and I guess I liked the thought of being able to know that.

Owl and Sys, I know you said your W's were still on those sites. Do you really think that they didn't have a curiosity to see the OM there? At least back at the stage where I'm at now? They 'may' not have verbalized this to you, but I'm sure they had the curiosity in their head. Not to say that any of this is right, but just having you think about where I'm at.

I was not able to bring this up to my H last night. We are having some major issues with our oldest that needs to be dealt with and that is taking over our thoughts and conversations at home. I just can't pile this on top of that.

So my plan for today is to try my very hardest to not go to that site. I will take this day by day. I'll try to get through today and think of it as a small step for today. If I can get through today, then maybe I can get through tomorrow and the next day and so on. If I get the urge to go there, I will come on this site and read here, or read on another Christian forum that I know of. I just wish it weren't so easy on these computers to make a little click and there you are at that site!

As you said Cards, step by step!

2B, my W's activity on her particular site is a bit more complex than one might think. She was guild leader for a long time and was close with a lot of people on that site -they played an on-line game together for years. I think actually loosing contact with a lot of her other in-game friends made the withdrawal even harder. She wasn't just cutting off regular contact with the OM, but with a lot of people that she was close to. From what I've seen as well the OM wasn't a big poster. All of this is why her activity there didn't bother me to the point of seeing it as a breech of NC, but I do admit to a sense of relief the more she distances herself from her former guild. She is still in touch with a few girlfriends from the guild and actually they've been a great source of support for her over the last few months. So all in all things have worked out pretty well.

BUT, if I thought she was cruising a board or a game hoping to see what the OM was up to, I would be very concerned and anxious. What I have come to see in terms of my W's on progression is that the NC was definitley a stepped process. First she tried and failed, then she made limited contact b/c she was concerned abou his mother being sick and his well-being (I know a rationalization), then the NC went into place and she's been good eversince. But at one point in the beginning she was in sporadic contact with a RL friend of the OM -but then that ended as well. I still don't know for sure if that was a coincidence or a deliberate attempt to get or recieve info about the OM, but it has stopped as well. I know she felt tremendous guilt about ending the EA for the hurt it caused the OM as well and knowing her she was worried about how he was doing. Doesn't make it any easier for me to accept but I do understand -besided that was in the beginning of NC and the fog was very strong at that point.

Point is, I think it's normal to slowly back away in terms of NC, but it does need to end in a timely manner. You can't drag it out. if there is something holding up the termination of the attachment, you need to work on that.

2BN, since you have the temptation to 'check' on OM's posts and struggle to resist, you will have to take preventive action, protect yourself and totally block that site from your PC so that you don't have access to that forum AT ALL. Speak to the IT department in your company and ask them to block it for you - I know it can definitely be done. And if you have internet access at you home PC, ask the IT people how to block it and do it at your home as well, or better, get a IT technician to your home PC and asks the person to do it for you. It will be worth the money. In this way you won't get tempted to unblock it again because you won't know how!

And yes, I agree with all the others - checking in on OM's posts IS contact and hurtful to you, your H and M and emotional betrayal towards your H because it put the OM in the front burner of your mind AND you keep it secret from your H, but obviously you're in some kind of 'fog' and denial about this.

Suzet

2BN-

Of course my wife was still curious how the OM was doing when she was still at your point of things. BUT...when we were at your point in things, we weren't logging into the game where he'd been at all...and neither was he. There was still sporadic contact for about a month and a half after d-day, that ended in a big issue between my wife and I when she realized that I wasn't going to be able to accept her keeping contact of any kind with him...even as a friend.

We hadn't seen ANY indications that the OM had been logged into the game at all until this past month or so...so for nearly a year, we'd seen NOTHING from or about him.

While I'm sure that my wife did occasional wonder how the OM was doing and faring after everything, I know that she did NOTHING to find that out on her own...nor did she make any effort to contact or see anything about him during that time. She knew of a few of his RL (real life-people who he knows in person, and not just 'in game') friends that were in game when we'd gone back and started playing, but she did nothing to contact them or him.

From my perspective, the difference here is that you SEE where he's been on the site. You've logged into HIS account. You've taken active steps that demonstrate that you're NOT clear of this addiction yet. And if you're not clear, you need to take drastic measures to get away from the temptation. This is why SH says there should be NO CONTACT at all...and that makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

If I knew that my wife did something TODAY that had anything to do with her OM, I'd be EXTREMELY hurt. And it's been a year for us. I'm sure she's out of that 'fog', that addiction. But it would hurt like heck if she chose to take the risk of doing anything to jeopardize what we've worked on so hard.

Hope that perhaps this gives you some additional perspective on things. Can you see why so many of us are so adamant that you HAVE to take some serious steps to get away from that forum now?

Hi Sys - I would classify my NC as a stepped process as well, but it really should never had been that way. I'm not sure how much of my story you had a chance to follow. 3 weeks ago the OM left me a message on his email account to which I still had his password and he still had my password to my email. This last contact from the OM was to let me know the outcome of a situation with his son that I was concerned about and prayed for. So, I can relate to your W with still having concerns. But, I also realize now that I have to let go of all of it. My first real NC at all started 4/25, even though our communications for a month or so were very minimal if hardly anything. I pretty much just knew he was "there" by having his password to his email. As of 4/25 I changed my password and the OM changed his password. This was the first real NC for me. But...then the OM had to let my H know he regiestered under a new s/n on that forum. Big temptation for me to find him there!

Previous to this knowledge of the OM changing his s/n, he really wasn't posting there except for asking prayer for his son and another incident. So, I could just read there not worrying about him "being there". I guess he must feel a "need" for himself to be there. I do remember the OM telling me he had no other Christian friends beside me! What a "Christian friend" I was right? So, I suppose he likes to be on that forum to learn from other Christians. I can't let myself worry about that though.

Suzet - Our company doesn't have an IT dept. I work for a small co. of only 11 people. I don't know myself how to block that site. It's really going to have to be me having the willpower to stop looking there.

Owl - I understand your point. I know I have had this addiction with wanting to know about the OM for months! D-Day was 12/29 and now it's 5/12 and I'm still thinking of him. I obviously have this big struggle I'm dealing with. Now I'm not thinking of him in the way of getting back into the A, but just thinking of him in that curiosity mode. And by knowing the OM is posting on that forum, my curiosity got to me and I sought out to find him intentionally. I can remember a year ago the OM telling me that he had struggled with sending a birthday card to his former OW! His A had ended 4 years prior and he was still struggling at times to know about her! He absolutely had no contact with this woman over all that time and still had struggling thoughts at times! I don't want to be that way 4 years from now as the OM was! We must all deal with this so differently as your W has no struggles right now with wanting to know about the OM.

I have not looked at that site at all today! I'm doing my best to remain strong in this!

2BN-

Quote

I've known about the OM's s/n since last Thursday. I am just now admitting this and I seriously think I need some serious help with my temptations!

You said this yesterday, and it goes to show that you must've felt that this was causing you a problem. Seriously, you have to accept the fact that the withdrawing is going to take some time and effort again. If you're considering NC to be 4/25, that was only 2 1/2 weeks ago! Try to remember how you felt earlier in the year when you were withdrawing. When I had a relapse of NC I felt depressed again about 2 weeks later.

PLEASE, do whatever you can to avoid the triggers and anything associated with OM. Even at this point (weeks & weeks after NC) I am not "fighting" NC, but every once in awhile thoughts do drift in about how easily it would be just to pick up the phone. It is such a gradual process, take it one day at a time, and know that each week will get better.

Quote

Seriously, you have to accept the fact that the withdrawing is going to take some time and effort again. If you're considering NC to be 4/25, that was only 2 1/2 weeks ago! Try to remember how you felt earlier in the year when you were withdrawing.

Cards - Yes I would say that the real NC started 4/25 since we changed those passwords. What I'm feeling now is not like the withdrawal back at the end of Dec. and early Jan. I can't really describe it except for that curiosity. I don't have withdrawals from communicating with the OM because there was not much communication in the past months. The withdrawal is from "knowing about him" and knowing that he's still alive, etc. Does that make sense to anyone? For months after I let go of the 1st OM, I would still check to see if his s/n showed up on IM just to see if he was "alive". I wouldn't talk, but I just needed to know he was around. Well, I only got over that because of this 2nd OM who became my distraction from that. I never really dealt with it.

I HAVE had other struggles as well with wanting to pick up that phone and call the OM, but I do not give into that. I also had a moment of insanity where I changed the password back on my email for about 10 minutes!! But, I have changed it again so the OM doesn't know it. I know I cannot contact him and I WILL NOT contact him. I suppose since I know I cannot contact him, I was letting this "knowing he's alive" thing by finding him on that forum make me feel better.

I have to fight these thoughts moment by moment and day by day.

One more quick thought - I found myself trying to find patterns of when the thoughts and "curiosities" were prevalent. Maybe it is being overtired, maybe a conflict with H, maybe just an everyday stressor. If we can know how to head off our "weak" times we can derail them before caving in.

Keep posting!

Good point Cards! I know my weakest times are at work when I'm sitting in front of this computer. I may get bored for a moment and my thoughts will wander. I just need to keep myself busy!

Also, I have a short time at home by myself in the mornings, that is where I have temptations as well. Since D-Day, we have moved the computer in our house out to our dining room to where it's in view by all. It was previously in a spare room. The MC said we NEED to move the computer in a public area! That has helped me tremendously when I'm home with everyone around, but not when I'm alone! When I'm alone, I find that I can be weak.

Believe it or not, it was my WIFE who suggested we rearrange the house to move the computers up from the 'den', and consolidate them into our living room area. And she did this while she was still deep in the withdrawl. Part of her reasoning was that it was dark down in the den area, but part of it was also to get the computers into the main area of the house.

In our case, summer vacation started almost as soon as my wife came out of the HARD part of the withdrawl, so she had very little 'alone' time for a few months after that. That may have helped her deal with her addiction some too.

Recognizing when you're at your most vulnerable is critical...as well as setting up some coping measures for those times when you ARE tempted to give in. Perhaps call or IM your husband when you're feeling weak? Or when you start to think of the OM, FORCE yourself instead to think of your husband and your marriage. It takes time, but you CAN change your thought patterns...I know, as I've had to do that to help me deal with my own depression and PTSD, both now and in the past.

Yes, I have to really confess that NC has been extremely hard for me. Even though OM said that we should move on and maybe just be friends. Even though I know there's no chance of going back to what it was, I haven't been able to let go. And I think part of it is not wanting to deal with the mess that my M is. And to give up the love and affection that I was getting when I haven't been getting enough in my M for years. But for myself I have to have NC. I'm, today kinda of angry with OM. Trying to build on that for NC. Trying to see how he hurt me and how hes not worth it. And how I need to let go to move forward in whatever direction I need to go. For me. NOt for anyone else. I can see it's not going to be easy, every 5 minutes I'm telling myself not to check his space. I may need to post a lot today!

2B I think much of our A's is addiction and obsession and for me having that feeling of being wanted and needed after not having it for so long is really, really, hard to let go of. Not that I've still had it. OM has been standoffish and just friendly the times I have talked to him recently. No intimacy at all, just music talk. Which is good.

Dealing w/my H is another story. I"m not sure where that is going. I will have to see.

-win

Owl, I agreed right away that the computer needed to be moved. I still do not like where it's at because if you are really trying to read or do something where you have to concentrate, there is too much action going on around me. But, I know it HAS to be where it's at. What happened out of moving it is that our 2 daughters were able to have their own rooms for the first time ever! They were thrilled with the idea! Previously, we had always tried to keep the spare room as an office type room and guest room.

I do call my H at work when I have trouble. Sometimes I can have a hard time to reach him because he is in meetings alot. I cannot IM him because he has no internet access at his office. It's during these times when I will have to make the extra effort to think of my H and my M and also pray.

Win - I can really understand why you are having a hard time letting go. For me though, my H is actively working on our M and the areas where we had neglected. He loves me so very much and shows me that everyday! I really need to think of how my obsession is hurting him and our M when my thoughts want to go to the OM.

Win, You already know the A is over, so what can you do yourself to prevent yourself to not look at the site where the OM is? Is there something you can do physically or mentally to take that thought away? Today I just told myself I'm not going there and I haven't yet today! I still have a bit of pull to check, but I'm resisting and relying on the Lord to carry me through.

Keep posting here Win. It will help keep you away. Everytime you have that urge, write to us instead. We're here for you!

2B-
Like you I think my weakest times are at work because I"m sitting in front of the pc and have my mind wanders (ADD), lol. I know the A is over, for the last few months I haven't wanted it to be over. Right after D-Day 2/17, I was determined NOT to let it end. However OM felt bad about what happened and wanted to end it as well. He didn't want to be the cause of breaking up a marriage. My OM was only 20 and we just kinda got in over our heads with this A. I have to do this NC for me, not my H, not anyone here, but for myself. I'm trying!!

-win

Win - I was like you with determining not to let the A end. I knew it was over and I knew there was no way of going back to the A once it was all out in the open. It was very hard to let go of someone you care about and you know that person still cares about you as well. I hung on to whatever I could of the OM just to know that he was "there". There is a point where we have to realize we HAVE to let go. That's why I posted as I did yesterday. I knew if I posted I would get the encouragement here to do what I already know in my head is right. I needed that extra push to MAKE me do what's right.

Have you gone to the site today Win? I know it's a struggle to not look. If you have that site saved in your "favorites" - maybe take it off there, so it's not so easy to click on it.

2B-

No I haven't gone there yet today! That's progress! I did talk to him last night for like 2 minutes, then he had to go. So it's still pretty fresh. Just thinking about NC is painful to me. Plus this time of year is hard, last year things were really heating up, my H was about to go out of town and OM called me everynight, so there's all these memories. And thats really hard. Plus I don't really want to forget him, just earase him. It was a part of my life, I have to let go, but don't want to forget. Do you feel that way too?

I just keep trying to think about the fact that he really has no interest in talking to me anymore. That he already HAS moved on and I'm just hurting myself by hanging on. I knew from the beginning it wasn't a relationship that could ever last, that it was just a fling or whatever, not that I could stop it. Obviously I couldnt. H and OM had to stop it for me.

HOw long was your A 2B? I haven't kept up on all the posts.

-win

Win -
I just wanted to pop in and provide a hug ((((win bin)))). I know exactly how hard it is to start NC and go through the pain of withdrawls, just as Cards and 2BN do. It is without a doubt one of the most painful things I have ever had to do. Your heart tells you one very powerful urge, and yet your brain knows it isn't the right thing to do.

Feelings are o.k. You'll feel them. Just don't pick up the phone or check his site. Stop yourself when you have that urge, and you are going to have those urges every couple of minutes during the coming weeks. You won't forget OM probably ever, but those feelings of attraction will die and it won't hurt after it's really over in your mind.

Every time you give in, you are chipping away at your self-esteem because you hang up and probably say to yourself "why did I just do that??!!". Time to stand up now, ok? You'll be proud of yourself in a few weeks, I promise.

Keep busy, have a list of reasons why you shouldn't call. Every time you feel an urge, get up and go do something else or read your list. And when you need help, write here. We will all talk you out of it.

Hang in there Win. We've all been there and we've all done it. You can too...just have strength.
GS

Win - So proud of you for not looking at the site today!!
Win, how did you feel after you talked to the OM last night for 2 minutes?

It's very hard to think about NC forever isn't it? It's painful and there are those memories that still linger. I had talked to the OM from Feb of last year and D-Day was 12/29/04. If you don't remember my story - well I met this OM on the forum that I'm staying away from (as of today!) and we started to talk because he helped me to let go of another OM! Sounds crazy, but I never would have thought I would end up falling in love with this OM. We didn't admit our feelings until 9/04, so the real heat of the A was Sept - Dec.

It is hard to let go and to just erase this OM. I did it ever so slowly with little steps. It was so very hard to delete his pics, but I had to. I held on to so much and now I realize I have to let go for good! It will still be a struggle because I know he's on that forum posting, but I HAVE TO!

Keep strong Win!

2B
Last night I felt kind of annoyed with OM because as soon I as signed on and said hello, he had to go. But this is a good thing, I want to be annoyed with him. Though, I really deep down, can't be, but I'm trying!

Our EA started pretty hot and heavy right away in march 04. I was into flirting with guys then (H knew and was ok w/it), but we had a connection right away as he said. He started calling about a month after we met and continued up to Feb 05. I was actually calling other guys at the time as well, but he's the only one I was in love with and cared about, had a relationship with. Yes, thinking of NC forever, is something I can't think about right now. I just can't. I have to think about NC for right now, forever will follow. I'm no where near ready to delete the pix, that will have to wait. ONe step at a time. Just decided to have NC is a very big step for me, after almost 3 mo. in limbo.

-win

Win - I had wanted you to think about what you gained from the contact you had with the OM last night. Nothing really good right? Just try to think of that next time ok?

Your situation is different from mine, Win, but we BOTH know what's best for us and for our M's right? Just take it one day at a time. That's how I'm dealing with it today. When I woke up this morning, I told myself I will not look at that site today. I can deal with one day at a time. Tomorrow is a new day, and I will wake up with same attitude and hopefully each day will get a little easier and my feelings and memories will fade the longer I don't dwell on the OM.

Pics are hard to delete. It was the hardest thing for me to hit that delete key on them because I knew I could never recapture the pics again. But I also knew if I held on to them, it would destroy me. I know it's hard! It took me about 3 months to delete them. You'll get there Win.

I'm about to head out of work for the day. I'll keep you in prayer Win. Keep strong with NC and staying away from the site and let's try to encourage each other in this.

Try to not focus on the no contact as FOREVER! That thinking will just make you dig your heels in, as a defense mechanism for not letting go of the memories. You will ALWAYS remember OM no matter what - the EA impacted your life. But you have to allow the withdrawal to happen. Just because you withdraw, you will still have the memories.

Yes I can't really think that far. I'm just thinking of today. And how I'm doing today. I can't think about the future right now anymore. It's just been too much for me. I have to break it down into pieces. This is what I'll do today, and I'll think about tomorrow, tomorrow. I'm glad that we have eachother to help us! I don't think I can do this by myself.

-win

Hey guys!
I have been reading here and there but haven't wanted to jump in.

The OM in my life I had met through my H while we were at a sports event in another city. When we got back I added him to IM.

Our relationship developed bit by bit online and became a full fledged EA very fast. When I was back in the city where he lives, I met with him - not with the intention of it being PA, but it did of course become PA, twice.

After that we continued the online EA, until him and his family came to visit us one weekend and we got caught (which in my fog I lied off - it was a kiss in the bathroom)

At that point I knew it had to end. So i kept "breaking up" with him, but staying in contact with him as I felt I NEEDED his friendship - that how could I face the things in my marriage without my "Friend"

So the staying in contact thing, kept drawing me back in, as badly as I wanted out - I was stuck - it was like a slippery hill that I couldn't climb up, and kept sliding down into.

Until my H threw me the rope and I realized I could do NC. I could do it.

It was the best thing I ever did - luckily - my withdrawl was quick but I realized very quickly that I could do things without him - that my "friendship" was not really a friendship - but an addiction. An addiction to what he could do for me mentally. And I could never recover or see how I could be without him unless I got rid of him.

Sad thing is now I look back, and I see this skinny, ugly old man, who has many affairs on his wife, he has bad teeth, bad breath, and is a donkey compared to the purebred stallion my husband is.

But you will never see that unless you get the stregnth to do NC, and you have to fight leaving a door open - enlist friends you know, enlist your H if he knows, get people to help you. And do it. Do it for yourself. As someone who has been there - do it for yourself - the longer you prolongue it the more it will hurt you, and everyone involved.

Anyhow - that's just my 2cents!

I am glad you guys found a place where you can talk about it though - it helps doesn't it.

-ds

Again, how about the focus on the way things are BETTER now? If nothing else, think about the lack of stress that you've got now that you're not hiding anything from your H. While she never said it, I could SEE how much easier it was for my wife when she no longer had to hide things from me.

I'm still struggling with some rough 'memories' myself right now, but again, I'm trying to focus on how much better things are NOW.

I still have saved on my computer a 'letter' I wrote to my wife a year ago today...while she was still staying in the motel getting ready to fly away. It was NOT a nice letter...very un-MB like. She never got it from me...because it was really just a way for me to vent my feelings at the time. I glanced at it...and while I can still remember how I felt at the time, it's amazing to me now to look at just how different our R is now from then.

Last nite was spent in a sheer snuggle-fest on the couch. Watched a couple of shows together, read a little in her Bible, and played a game or two of cards with each other. Fell asleep with her head on my chest...I was thinking to myself that it couldn't get any better than this. And the wonderful thing is, she tells me that she feels the same way, and I can see it in everything that she says and does.

Realize that she was in a VERY similar situation as you ladies are now, just about 10 months ago. She had NO hope for our marriage, no real desire to even work on it. She stayed at the time because she felt like she had no other option.

Things CAN get better. It takes work, on both parts. And sometimes it's very hard and it's easy to lose hope...but it is NOT hopeless. Remember, God never gives us more than we can bear. And he is not only the God of peace, but he's also the same God who creates (and calms!) storms! He knows what your life is like right now...but given the chance, He'll show you a plan for you that will be more wonderful than anything you can imagine!

Hang in there my friends!

Cards

Definition

Closure: OP is outta yo life and you are outta OP's life. The "after effects" are for you to figure out.

Where's that cave again? Crawling in it sounds pretty good.

Good morning everyone! I hope everyone is doing well today.

Win - how are you doing today? Fill us in with your thoughts. Are you still keeping NC?

Owl, thanks for the encouragement booster for us ladies here. What you describe with you and your wife...I can see with my H and me. We do spend alot of nights as you described. I just can't figure out why I still have this "need" to know the OM is still out there??? Last night my H had to work very late until 10:00 and I absolutely hated that! I really need him at home with me and near me. A year ago that was not the case. I wanted him out of the house as much as possible so I could have space.

Just curious Owl, did you ever show your wife that letter you wrote while she was in the motel room? Or do you just keep it for yourself as a reminder of how things have changed so much for the better?

Cards - how have you been all week? Are you still communicating in the evenings with your H?

Well, I "almost" looked into the site yesterday. I got home from work and jumped on the computer for a minute. The headlines in the news for the past few days were from the area where the OM works and lives near, so it set off a trigger for me. For a moment, I opened up that site and scanned the topics, but then I closed it very quickly without "looking" any further than that. I'm glad I stopped myself!

Tomorrow my H and are going to that Marriage Seminar at our church that I mentioned a few weeks ago. We are both very excited about it. It will be an all day event from 9-4. Then we decided to celebrate our 19th anniversary on Sunday night (our anniv. is next Tues.) since we have no other time. We are just going to go out to dinner together to spend some time alone. This next week will be so busy with our daughter's graduation.

Happy Friday! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sounds awesome 2BN! Hope this weekend goes wonderfully for the both of you!!

No, I never showed that letter to my wife. It was FAR to harsh...as I'd mentioned, I was venting, and this was all during the time when she'd moved out of the house into the motel room. And I've really not looked at it much since...just had it sitting back in a directory I don't use much.

I think that the reason you've still got that huge desire to see how the OM is doing is because you've still not totally removed him from your life. You've only recently gotten rid of the emails and pics, and you're still struggling with closing out the final bits of things that allowed you to 'see' him in some ways. Since that's all been so recent, you're still in withdrawl...maybe not the serious hardcore withdrawl that you felt at the very end of the A, but still a form of it.

Time, and willpower, are your keys to getting past this. Those, coupled with devoting yourself back to your husband will be how you can best deal with all of this.

This weekend will be a huge step in the right direction.

Cards, Win, Sys...hope ya'll are doing well!

Quote

I think that the reason you've still got that huge desire to see how the OM is doing is because you've still not totally removed him from your life. You've only recently gotten rid of the emails and pics, and you're still struggling with closing out the final bits of things that allowed you to 'see' him in some ways. Since that's all been so recent, you're still in withdrawl...

I think you are right here, Owl. I kept so many little pieces of the OM for so long and this is the final piece that I could hang on to if I wanted to. The final letting go is still all so fresh. I could seriously look for him on that site for months and months, but what would I gain? Nothing. Last night, I was going over the entire 'last phone conversation' with the OM in my head. I don't know why? I had to make myself stop! This is where I have to have willpower. When I think of the OM or want to look at that site, I need to stop and re-focus somehow.

My H and I both are psyched for tomorrow. I guess we can look at this as part of our anniversary gift to each other!

I don't have a letter per say, but at one point soon after d-day I went from feeling really sad to being very angry with my W, so I started a small notebook with random thoughts in it -I guess I wanted to collect my thoughts for future reference. Anyway, I wrote down a lot of angry thoughts and some pretty viscious ideas I had about what I thought the next steps were.

I think it did me some good to vent to myself instead of her (at the time I hadn't found this place or the other board). I still have that notebook here at work in a drawer. I haven't looked at it since I wrote it, don't really intend too, but I didn't get rid of it. As much as you all cling to some meomory of the OM, it's almost like I don't want to forget the rage I felt -a reminder of what happened.As if I needed it :P

I also wrote a letter to the OM that I never sent. Basically it was a "you are scum, how dare you do this to my family, I don't know how you sleep at night, decent people don't do this, blah, blah, blah -again venting, but I haven't deleted that either yet.

We all have our artifacts I guess. In my case it might be argued that I can't let go of the anger. Maybe that's a bad thing for me too. I think part of me wants to be able to show those to my wife someday that she might better understand the pain I was/am in. Then again, maybe it's just an emotional baseball bat I 'm keeping around in case I need it again (this is very destructive thinking and not how I feel -just speculating).

Anyway, tonight we have a sitter coming and we're going out for sushi together. Should be a good night. We have a lot of good memories going out for sushi -and a reminder of our trip to Japan. We may be progressing slowly, but it's nice to feel like pals again. I am still pained by the distance between us in terms of emotional and physical intimacy (which I crave), but we're improving every day and I do have hope for the future, just anxious for some kind of breakthrough in that area. Right now the hard thing for us is to find the right time to talk. I hate to bring down an otherwise good evening -certainly not on our date night. It seems that when we do talk it's pretty spontaneous -just don't like looking for an opening when there is something on my mind -nothing is THAT pressing, but there is so much I want to talk about. My W doesn't like the idea of a set time -she fears she'll start to get too worked up knowing that it's imminent. Any ideas?

Hi Sys - I think that it's good that you journalized your anger and thoughts. I was just re-reading parts the book Torn Asunder last night. There is a section in there that talks about journalizing your thoughts so you can look back where you were to how you have progressed. The book also talked about anger over the A is a necessary thing for the BS. It's a very necessary part of the recovery. I also did read that it's important for the WS to understand and feel the pain that we created for the BS.

Sounds like you 2 are moving forward and tonight will be special for you 2. I definately wouldn't bring up any of the topics you want to discuss tonight. Keep it a fun night!

Suggestions....that's difficult when your W doesn't want a set time to discuss these things, but it seems necessary. One of the things our MC had us do (and we've stopped this now) was to allow each of us 5 minutes of non-interrupted talk each day. The point was to get communications going and for the other person to practice listening without responding. The key was that only one of you had a turn for the day. You one day, and your spouse the next day and the spouse not talking should look into the eyes of the spouse talking and acknowledge what he/she is saying, but refrain from any comments at all that day regarding what was said. It really did help us when we had alot on our minds to share without fear of comments from the other.

Not sure if this will help - but maybe it could.

The cave is easy to find it is just a B**** to get out of it.

Cards

I think that many want to have a "blank slate" again and that isn't going to happen. As we get further from the "train wreck" it gets smaller. The "site" can be cleaned up and the wreckage hauled away but we will always know that it happened "there." The challenge is to move away from that truama and heal
H

Pepper

I am so happy to be absolved...I thought I was going to have to preface each of my posts with the words "Unclean".
H

Quote

Pepper

I am so happy to be absolved...I thought I was going to have to preface each of my posts with the words "Unclean".
H

Bwhaaaaaaaaa

Did you wash today?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well, my wife and I used our reading sessions at nite to talk about things after we really began to recover...but that only lasted about a month or so. After that, we basically just talked about anything that we needed to talk about when it came up...to her credit, she's normally been willing to talk about anything if I need it. And the need has grown less and less. She understands that she's further down the road of healing from all of this than I am, so she tries to be understanding if something comes up. Not that it does that much anymore really. Even with the 'anniversaries' this week, it's only come up one night for a few minutes...there really just isn't that much to talk about anymore.

Sys-

I would suggest that you and your wife set up some kind of plan for discussing things if you REALLY have the need to work through stuff...and put some good rules in place so that you could hopefully alleviate some of your wife's apprehension about talking about things. It took my wife some time to learn that I wasn't going to bite her head off if she said something that hurt me...as long as she was being honest, I was willing to LISTEN to whatever she had to say.

Enjoy your sushi run tonite. We've got nothing planned...staying home tonite and going to watch the Elvis Presley special that's going to be on...as a girl, she was TOTALLY infatuated with him! LOL

Quote

It took my wife some time to learn that I wasn't going to bite her head off if she said something that hurt me...as long as she was being honest, I was willing to LISTEN to whatever she had to say.

Sys - As Owl stated above, your W needs to feel comfortable with communicating. This is why I suggested the method the MC gave my H and I. Gives you or your W a chance to express without worrying about getting your head bit off. It will just get you started with communicating and REALLY listening to each other. My H and I came to really enjoy having our 5 minutes of time each to get out what was needed.

Hello,
Yes I'm still hanging in there. I didn't go to his site yesterday, I almost signed on and I stopped myself. I just keep telling myself that its over and that he's moved on, that he doesn't want me or really want to talk to me. It's painful but its helping I guess. I still think about him all the time, everyday and there's many triggers especially this time of year, and music I listen to. Though I'm not listennig to the especially painful reminders. He gave me tons of songs, I'll just have to put away for a while. I dont know why but I still think about all the things he said to me and his voice, and how funny he was about stuff. But I'm trying to think about different stuff today, plans I have coming up with friends.

H and I are in MC, I guess it's going ok. We are just finding out how much of a relationship we DIDN'T have. My H has never needed much emotional intmiacy and now hes seeing what I was missing. This is why its so hard to give it up with OM (thou we haven't been emotionally intimate since January), but any little scrap I have is hard to let go of. I don't know where this will lead H and I and if it can really be saved. I'm sorry, but i've been faking it for so many years, I just can't do it anymore. I need something real. And it may not be with H or OM.

I'll need help with my willpower today! My sis/law isn't online today so I have no one to talk to. My mind will wander easily!

-win

I believe my wife is OK with talking any time now. We discussed as much -it's more the idea that talking will be painful and coming to the realization that no time is a good time to feel that way. I think we both feel better after talking, so in the end it's a good thing. We need to get in the habit more. We've had really good talks of late, no anger ,no arguing, just Q&A, mostly about where we are and where we want to be. As I said, the hard part is finding the best time to do it. We really need to wait until the kids are in bed (8ish) and then hope that we don't bum out the rest of the evening. I guess it's trying to balance the positive effect we've seen spending our evenings together enjoying each other's company against the positive effect of digging in the dirt emotionally and realizing that it will probably not be fun. This is a good topic for the MC as well -we go back next week. I think he will be glad to hear that we seem to be at the point where we can talk about some hard things.

Win-

Remember that everything you do (or not do) is a CHOICE. If you want to make a change in your life for the better, you first have to CHOOSE to do so. Things won't just get better on their own. Like pretty much any good thing, this is going to take WORK on your part to get through.

I hesitate to say this, but this is something that I've seen as a recurrent theme throughout all of your posts, and I thought that it should be brought up.

If you look at how you mention how you feel about the A and this rough time after it, you always immediately go into what your H did to make you so unhappy. My wife started to do the same thing when we FIRST went to MC...and the MC pointed out to her in no uncertain terms that while there were undoubtedly issues in the M that made her unhappy and contributed to her thinking, SHE was the one who CHOSE to have the affair. Of course, that didn't go over well. And she really didn't appreciate it when the counselor wouldn't let her sit there and try to pass of the blame of the A onto me...which, at least to me, is a lot of what I see in your posts here.

You really do need to stop and take ownership of the A. It was YOUR choice to do so, unless I'm sadly mistaken. Yes, I can absolutely believe that your marriage was not all roses prior to the A, but the way you tend to link these two things together seems to me an attempt to justify your actions in your mind. And it seems to me that you're spending all of your energy on blaming everything that's wrong in your M on your H...it's time to take some ownership for some of that as well.

My M was on the rocks due to actions on BOTH of our parts. I did NOT force my W to get involved in this EA...on the contrary, when I started to suspect what was going on, I tried everything I could to improve things...but it was too late. I have taken ownership on the things that were wrong in my M before that I contributed to...and so has my wife.

Rather than sit there and be angry about how things WERE, why don't you BOTH start working on changing things NOW?

Again, NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS YOU FIRST CHOSE TO MAKE A CHANGE.

Quote

Again, NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS YOU FIRST CHOSE TO MAKE A CHANGE.

pithy accurate advice ... a gem of wisdom you are oh-wise-OWL

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Win - good to see you here today! Good for you with staying away from the site yesterday. It's tough, but take it one day at a time and I believe it will get easier for you and for me. My fingers want to click on that forum site today, but I am resisting big time!

Win, it would be good to put away all of your little reminders of the OM (songs, etc.) for now. Try to focus on something else non-related to the OM. I have to fight off thoughts and conversations with the OM too. If I go there, I just tell myself to stop and think of something else. Keep writing here Win when you start to wander off in your thoughts!

Sys - It really sounds as if you 2 are having some good talks. It's hard to talk about the tough stuff and maybe your MC can help with directing you 2 there.

Question for you guys (or ladies). Ok our anniversary is coming up next Tuesday. For me it's really special this year (should be every year...but), but my H says well last year he didn't know any different. He said that this anniversary is more "special" in meaning to me than really to him. Ok that sort of made me sad. He didn't mean it in a mean way, but just made me sad to think of. Well, to my point...we never had really gotten each other anything gift wise over the years. Just out to dinner or going away. I really just want to get him some type of gift representing my love for him...but he is not a real gift person and I just don't know what to get or if I should? Any suggestions?

New wedding bands?

Those bracelets that you get with each other's names on it?

Something that signifies the 'new start' your relationship with him now has, and that shows him just how much you love him and are glad that you were able to work things out with him.

Some good ideas Owl. He's not one to wear any type of jewelry with those bracelets. I'm not sure he would want a new wedding band either. Hmm...This is tough! I do want something that signifies the 'new start', but it's tough for me to figure out something he would like.

Sys,

I agree with 2B about your W feeling comfortable talking. For me its very hard to talk to H about my feelings for OM. n some ways, I feel like its private (simmer down people I know it shouldn't be, just a FEELING), and its just kind of weird. And sometimes I'm just so tired of dwelling on our problems I just want to vedge out and not think about it.

He's always wanted to rush me thru this. Withdrawl is a lot to deal with by itself and its hard. There's 2 relationships the WS have to deal with. It gets overwhelming sometimes.

-win

Win-

I can appreciate how hard it is for you to talk with your H about your feelings for OM. My wife felt exactly the same way...I couldn't do anything to comfort her when she was going through her withdrawl, because she felt like anything she accepted from me was a betrayal to HIM. I hated hearing it, but could understand that this was how she felt.

So don't talk to him about OM. Talk to him about OTHER things. Talk with him about what you need in a R...or just talk to him about the things that you would/could share with a FRIEND. See, that's part of the issue...not only is your M damaged by all of this, but so is your friendship. Working on one can help re-build the other...trust me, I've learned that from experience.

Owl,

Yes you are right, I am responsible for the A. Though in my situation H was involved in the A as I was calling guys to flirt with and then jump on H. HOwever, I didn't tell him I was falling in love with OM, this is true. Nor did I stop it when I realized my feelings were getting too strong. I'm not blame free in this M, I don't think either partner ever is.

But I do believe the A developed because of what was lacking in my M. And I did try repeatedly with my H to tell him that I wanted more from him, that something was missing. He didn't listen, he admits this. Our MC says that unconsciously I guess I finally did get his attention with the A. Though I was just happy to have OM at the time, and didn't think too much about it.

Yes I want change in my life, which is why I want NC with OM. Not for anyone else but myself. THEN when I can see clearing I can deal with what to do next. We have to start our relationship all over, but I can't move forward with all the past resentment, and I can't just "get over it" and move on. Our MC says it needs to be dealt with. We both need to understand what happened and start the relationship over again. NOt just move on.

Win - I realize your situation is a different from Cards and mine being that your H encouraged you to talk to these men. I understand that you fell for this OM, but are you still talking to any other men at all?

To be honest, going over the OM is not high on my priority list. What I would like to dig into is what created the problems in our marriage and what can we do now to make things better. My wife tells me she was unhappy for years. OK, so what caused that? What did I do or not do that contributed, what did she do or not do? What are the obstacles right now? What's bugging her about me and the situation now? Are there things I need to back off on? Do more of? I need to tell her what I really need as well. It doesn't mean I expect her to comply, but she needs to know how I feel as much as I need to know what she feels.

It's really these more intimate aspects of OUR relationship that I have a need to talk about. For now the EA and the OM are off the table for me.

2B,
I'm not talking on the phone with anyone. Yes I do talk to some online, but just as friends, I've told them all I can't play around anymore. I did have a 2nd OM with the first OM, who my H was very angry with. But I haven't talked to him in months, at all. He was pressuring me to meet him, but I was never planning on it.

SO I've told my H that I'm not going to flirt online anymore, though i can say I miss it, it was fun. Actually H wouldn't have really stopped me talking to anyone if I hadn't fallin in love with my OM. He probly would have let things continue because he was having fun with it as well. He just didn't want me to fall in love.

-win

Win,

You said something that you really really need to consider carefully. You said

Quote

But I do believe the A developed because of what was lacking in my M. And I did try repeatedly with my H to tell him that I wanted more from him, that something was missing. He didn't listen, he admits this.

Yes, he did not listen, but I will strongly question what he was supposed to be "listening to." You said

Quote

I wanted more from him, that something was missing.

What was he supposed to do with this lack of information? You cannot define what was missing so was he supposed to read your mind? This is part of the process that Owl is talking about. You are blaming your H for your A, when in fact you could NOT specify what was missing. You wanted "more" of what? THat is what he needed to hear, and will need to hear in the future.

Unless you can clearly and concisely tell your H what you need from him, it is unlikely he will be able to meet those needs. He is NOT a mindreader. The sad fact was/is that you told OM what was missing in the marriage. You told the OM what he needed to do to make you feel good. You did not give your H the same info.

I am not disputing the marriage needed help before your A. I am pointing out where you are blame shifting to your H while making the OM seem so great in your mind. The OM wasn't great and he was not a mindreader. You told the OM specifically what you needed from him.

If you want your marriage to function properly you need to be as honest with your H, and you need to discuss what you need in MC so that the MC can offer ways for you to put what you need in perspective and your H can understand what you need.

Give your H and your MC a chance. Focus on these things and determine them. You may know now that you told OM what you needed and he did it. But you must discuss this with your H and MC. OM just did what you told him. He was at no risk. He got what he wanted, and he had no responsibility for you or even seeing you again if he chose to leave. Your H is much more tightly tied to you: emotionally, legally, and morally.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Quote

Actually H wouldn't have really stopped me talking to anyone if I hadn't fallin in love with my OM. He probly would have let things continue because he was having fun with it as well. He just didn't want me to fall in love.

Win - I hope you realized that there is such a danger in what you were doing. Opening up to men online and flirting with them may seem fun and you may have even thought it was good for your M, but having other men involved in your M is just not healthy for your M. You an your H need to develop that fun in your M with you 2 "alone". I don't mean to beat down on you, but just hoping you understand the danger in what you were doing.

Just in the last two days, I've read two more posts (one here, and one on LS) about marriages that have been hurt or ended due to online EA's. In both cases, the woman left her H to be with her OM. And again, one of those cases for sure was due to online gaming.

Think they should put on the sign on screen for ALL internet service providers..."Warning: By activating your connection, you may be putting your marriage at risk!".

Whaddya think? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just learning-
What I was saying is before the A I told my H that I wanted to spend more time together that I wanted to be closer. He said he was stressed out and needed time to take drugs (yes) and play video games until 3am every night. I TOLD him what I wanted. He'd spend one night watchin tv, want sex and then go back to his pc'ing. He'd also take trips w/his friends and LIE to me about how long they would be because he knew I'd get mad and he didnt want to deal with it. It's not as if I was continually vague about things. I just didn't want to go into every detail. We have many issues, he sees that now. Yes I do have a lot of blame and resentment for my H. It's true. Thats what we are working through. He's never been close to me emotionally, talking about feelings etc. I wasn't exactly able to verbalize HOW he should do that.

I never told OM what I needed, he just gave it and then I realized after it ended thats what I"ve been missing for so many years. Is the emotional connection. H is working on that now.

2B-Yes I now realize that this was not a good thing, we both do. We had done it in the past online, and hadnt had any trouble, only fun. But this time it really went to far obviously. H actually encouraged me to call these men, though he did worry about me falling in love and running away, but he was getting sex so he was happy. He was also happy that I was occupied so he wouldn't have to feel guilty about playing video games (his words not mine). He realizes I need emotional connection to want sex now. We know things have been pretty messed up due to both of us.

-win

You know, it's amazing to me the wide variety of things that cause dissatisfaction in a marriage. Win, your H sounds like he has some real problems with "connecting" with you, I can see an obvious problem there. Not that it's unfixable, but I can understand where you are coming from. In my case, my wife tells me she has no idea why she's been unhappy. she says " I have a husband who loves me, who's a great father, who does his share around the house, who supports me...." So my challenge is to figure out what I've been doing wrong. I do know that I have had some anger and frustration issues .I never took them out directly on my wife but I imagine it was unpleasant to be around. Best I can figure and from what she's told me so far that is a big part of it. She has also said she felt opressed in the marriage -another issue to deal with. I'm curious as to what other's have found that was "wrong" or missing in their marriages that made the A possible.

Quote

Think they should put on the sign on screen for ALL internet service providers..."Warning: By activating your connection, you may be putting your marriage at risk!".

Might not be such a bad warning!

Win- glad you realized the harm it did. You and your H have much to work on and I'm glad you are trying your part with the NC. It's a good first step.

You all have a great weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sys-

In my case, it was her depression, combined with some issues around dealing with our kids for the most part. She felt like I was on 'their' side...felt like the kids and I were against her. Not defending her choice here, but that, combined with clinical depression, made for a bad frame of mind to suddenly find someone who 'appreciated' her.

Quote

He said he was stressed out and needed time to take drugs (yes)

Is he still using?

Pep

Here's an interesting thought for you all...at this point, I know of nine marriages (counting yours and mine, Sys) that were affected by online emotional affairs as a result of online gaming, like with Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc...

Out of all of those, ONE of them involved the husband as the WS. In all 8 other cases, it was the wife that was lured into an EA from contact with other people in a game setting. Out of all of those, in every case but mine and Sys, the WW left her BH and to the best of my knowledge, none of those other marriages have recovered. The one WH that I know of was a chronic online 'cyberer'...and as far as I know, he's still at it today with whoever he could get to join in with him. I know that he had an emotional attachment to at least one of the women he was 'with', but I don't believe that it was ever strong enough for him to leave his wife.

I'm curious if any of you might have some insight on why you think this might be the case? Is it because often women's needs are more centered around communication and emotional support, while men tend to seek more physical interaction (and I'm not just referring to SF)?

Pep-No he's not. This was one of my complaints thru our marriage, and I just gave up trying to get him to stop. I really should have put my foot down and demanded it because of course, it contributed to his depression and withdrawl from me. But I am a conflict avoider, or should I say I was. I don't plan on being one anymore!

Sys- I think like your wife, I didn't realize how unhappy I really was. I didn't know how to confront the issues or how to make it crystal clear to him what the problems were. And my H is very good at arguing, he does it for his job, so he always argues my points away. And I feel unheard, unvalidated. He realizes he cant try to "win" the argument now.

-win

Owl-

I know for me, since I talked to many different guys, the only one that I had a connection with was my OM because he's the only one who gave me the emotional connection AND the sexual connection. Many guys are only interested in the SF for their needs and not interested in having a relationship.

I also think women, being more verbal that online EA's can be more alluring and SEEM safe at first. HOwever I do know in my online 'world' there were many women who also were just seeking out SF from lots of other men be it online/phone or meeting them in person.

I also know of H's who sought out SF online because they weren't getting it in their marriages, but just wanted an 'online girl' to satisfy them and that they believed it was not cheating because there was no emotinal attachment. I know one H whose wife will never have sex w/him and lets him find it online. He had a gf for over a year online. He fell in love w/her but he wont leave his wife, he wants both of course. the GF finally left.

I've mentioned this site to those former "friends" of mine, that their S's need to work on meeting their needs.

I know that it's been an odd thing for me personally playing online games at times, as I've often received messages that were meant for someone else that were of an SF nature. And I know of two cases where the person that the messages were meant for were married...and not to the person who sent the messages. Unfortunately, in both of those cases, the person's spouse didn't play, so there was no way I could let them know what was going on.

I do think that women are more able to 'connect' via the conversations online than most men are...and I think that this is likely because the 'need for conversation' is more important to more women than men. Just my opinion though.

Hope everyone had a good weekend.

Had yet another uneventful, good weekend with the W and kids. I can't say that we're making giant strides or anything but the more things seem normal, the more they seem better. We still have a lot to do and say, but it seems like things are getting easier between us. Things almost seem so normal that I worry about getting complacent. We haven't had an MC session in 2 weeks ,so maybe that is adding to the feeling. We go on Friday, so I'm sure I'll feel more like we are working the situation more afer that.

We had our weekly date night on friday. Went to a nice sushi place where the sushi chef told us that his sushi would make us fall in love -what a guy. We're going back (until it works and beyond I think).

Friday the 13th actually was a really good day -good night out, and Owl, only you will appreciate this: We finally got a rare mob to spawn as we logged in (we've been waiting for weeks -he was either perma-camped or not up), won the ecounter and finished up a heritage quest -got great xp, a good chunk of status, a cool new weapon and I dinged a level- OK, so we're geeks.

Anyway, we did good this weekend and I hope things continue improving -had a few moments of introspection that got me bummed, a few moments of doubt, even a weird burst of paranoia -haven't had that in a while. But again, I know when they are going to occur -it's always when I'm tired and worn thin by the kids, so I don't pay too much attention to it. On the whole things are good.

Something that occured to me and I don't know if it's valid or not. My wife's mother had a troubled marriage and basically walked out on her father after sowing some of her wild oats, and her grandmother had men on the side her whole life -now my W has no respect for either of them for this behavior and she certainly is not proud of them for it
(disgusted by it acutually), but I have to wonder if somehow this is some kind of behaviour pattern repeating itself. I know I am a lot like my dad -in all the bad ways, no matter how I try. I need to fight some of those traits everyday. Could there be something within her that just impels or predisposes her to this sort of thing?

Could just be the impacts from the environments that you both were raised in. Even if she knows that what her mother and grandmother did were wrong and she doesn't approve of it, she may not have a good 'role model' to emulate...she never learned the 'right way' so to speak. Not that this is a defense, but you get the idea.

Weekend was alright here as well. Dealing with some rough times with the kids ourselves, so that combined with work had me worn out and frazzled...and that is always when the depression hits me the worst. My wife and I talked a little about that last nite...she understands, and realizes that it's got nothing to do with her/us.

Cards, 2BN, Win...hope you had a decent weekend as well.

Just popping in here for a second today. Not much time to get on here today! Had a good weekend as well. The marriage seminar was really good for the 2 of us. We learned alot of communication skills....so much to absorb for one day and we need to keep reviewing it! Had a really tough moment at the seminar when a scene was played from the movie "The Story of Us". I have never seen this movie but the scene brought me to tears that I could not control. If you haven't seen it...I'll try to fill in tomorrow.

Glad everyone is doing well.

Hi everyone:

It sounds like everyone is doing well. Last week was a very trying week - not problems with H & M, but work problems, church problems, & car problems! When I thought nothing else could happen I arrived at work this a.m. and my pc wouldn't boot up! I am up and running now, thankfully!

I have been keeping up on reading everyone's posts and I am so glad Win is back posting and getting support from a lot of people. These stresses in my life has kept my mind from being so self-absorbed about "my needs", but I have noticed that when I do have a minute my mind wanders back to some of those thoughts that had given me comfort before. Maybe just a reaction to stress (I hope).

Owl, I, too, have thought lots about why there are so many women getting "caught" in these EA's. It seems to be the women who have trouble pulling away and letting go. I really think it's the gender and goes back to the whole women/men mating game. The men traditionally are guided by their physical needs, the women by emotional needs. Even though the men may eventually get emotionally involved, it's common knowledge that many men have PA's and NEVER get emotionally involved. For women involved in A's, I would think that almost always they are emotionally involved, making the break-up far more devastating. Since an EA is not really physical, it would be interesting to look at just EA's and research if the withdrawal/attachment for the women and men is more balanced, or if the women STILL have much more difficulty. I would tend to think that even in EA's the women get more attached. Just my guesses, not based on any facts. Does that mean that women are more emotional and/or emotionally in touch in general? I think so.

Quote

Could just be the impacts from the environments that you both were raised in. Even if she knows that what her mother and grandmother did were wrong and she doesn't approve of it, she may not have a good 'role model' to emulate...she never learned the 'right way' so to speak. Not that this is a defense, but you get the idea.

Yeah, I don't give her family's behaviour much credit for what's happened. I should be looking at "us" more , not them. Just one of those things that you get around to thinking about once you've exhausted thinking about everything else.

But you could be right about not having good role models. Both of us are children of divorce and neither can lay claim to good role models. Our parents love us, but Lord, they provided poor examples I'm afraid. What I learned from my folks was that if you argued, you got divorced. So I avoided conflict like crazy all these years. That really didn't help. And when we did come into conflict, I didn't know how to handle it except to try to win at all costs. I guess it's better to learn it now than never, but I wish I knew then what I know now....

Sys-

I have not found any parallels re my EA and family history. My parents have had a wonderful 50 years together of true love and happiness. My H's parents were also happily married until his father died 11 yrs ago. What we DID learn was to not quit. Even at times through the years when I wondered if we were to be "happy" again, D was not really feasible in my mind. I believed that simply "feeling" unhappy did not warrant D. Hhmmm, maybe in this way I suppressed and stuffed frustrations because I perceived no way out. Who knows? Probably good and bad with all those learned perceptions. It does make you wonder what our children are learning from us, doesn't it???

I do believe, however, that we tend to replicate patterns that we have lived in, even though we fight and work hard to do the opposite. I laugh at myself as I become more and more like my mother, doing some of the things that had irritated me when she had done them.

Interesting thoughts, actually. My wife's first marriage was plagued and ruined by adulterous behavior of her first H...at one point, with her SISTER! My wife DID have a ONS payback thing during that time...but none of that really has much bearing on what happened between US.

Neither of our families have a history of infidelity, other than her sister's mistake. I came from a pretty disfunctional family, but at least the cheating was minimal (as far as I know...LOL).

I thought it was interesting that you mentioned that D was never a thought for you while you were in your EA, Cards. That kind of surprised me, unless it just didn't get the chance to last long enough to get to that point. I know that my wife and her OM were talking about the fact that it would have to happen someday, in order for them to really be together.

Owl,

I was referring to times BEFORE the EA when I thought about D, realizing it was not an option. As far as during the EA, we (OM & I) had not spoken about D-ing our spouses. At the point of d-day, our R was just approaching possibly meeting. We had not gotten to the point of making plans to be together forever or anything like that. I really don't know whether or not meeting would've really happened, as both of us "agreed" early on that we would not risk our families.

Also different with my EA is the fact that we did NOT discuss our marital problems with each other. There were very few references to our M's. Only a few times we expressed dissatisfaction at home, I believe it was sort of a foregone conclusion though. Again, this might have all been coming down the road, I don't know. These facts about my EA tend to make me believe that this OM was intending to use the EA as many men use the PA, just for fun. I do believe, however, that he became emotionally involved as the EA progressed and the R evolved. He had previous PA's and I think the intensity of the EA caught him off guard. Even so, I doubt that his attachment to me was as intense as mine to him.

I think it's interesting that I found out that my mom wanted a D during her marriage. My dad was out every night playing in a band and wasn't there much for us. BUt what I learned from my mom was how to be complacient in a bad marriage and I think that's worse than if she had D'ed him. What I learned was not how to confront problems and that it was okay for the husband to basically ignore the wife for his own hobbies etc.

Hi everyone, I tried to keep up with reading yesterday, but my writing time was limited.

I was thinking about what Owl had said about that women are more prone to be lured into an EA. It seems that all of our cases are different even though there was an EA involved. I would have to say that I believe that the OM in my situation became more emotionally attached to me first. It could be because the way our EA evolved and that I was still attached to another OM when I was first communicating with the most current OM. But, after we exposed our feelings to each other, I asked him several things that I always wondered in my mind about different comments he said to me over those months prior to admitting our feelings. It was confirmed that he was having the attachment feelings toward me even though they were not directly expressed.

As far as history of A's or EA's in my family. There are none in my immediately family that I know of. I do question my Mother's promiscuity before marriage though. She seemed to always push me towards guys and even encouraged me to meet guys while we were on a family vacation while I had a bf at home. This is how I met the first OM on vacation when I was 16. She encouraged this and even took pictures of me and this boy (who became an OM 24 years later!) back then! So it was something that I was told it was "ok" to do. Could this have affected me long term? The way I met my H is that I was dating his best friend in college and my H (to be at the time) and I snuck around and cheated behind my bf's and his best friend's back. Do these tendencies repeat themselves over and over again? In my case, it does seem so.

Hope everyone is having a good day today. Today is our 19th anniversary! My H gave me roses and a sweet card this morning and we had a nice dinner out on Sunday in celebration of our anniversary.

2Bnormal, just want to pop in and say:

[color:"blue"]HAPPY ANNIVERSARY TO YOU AND YOUR H! CONGRATUALTIONS![/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy this special day together and may God bless you and your H in your continuous recovery! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet

Thank you Suzet! We won't be able to spend much 'together' time today, but I am so very thankful for my H and the committed man he is to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Happy Anniversary 2BN!!!!

Hello,
Well I'm still struggling. The weekend wasn't very good. I didn't talk to OM but I did relapse into chatting online and almost phoned with someone when H wasn't home. I was a bit tipsy at the time. I just wanted to escape and have some fun. I realize it was a mistake.

H broke into my accounts and read this stuff. He also read that I had talked to another OM about meeting when H is out of town at the end of the month. This was a couple weeks ago. I wasn't really serious about meeting him. I was just depressed and angry and flirting a bit with this guy.

So anyway H said we should split up. Which is probably true. However, I really have a hard time thinking of hurting my kids this way. At this point I have no feeling for H, but I hate to do this to my kids. So sunday I told H that I would quit chatting, have NC with OM. That I would try to stay for the kids.

H now thinks I'm ready to jump into his arms fully and have some SF! I am so not even there yet. He then gets mad because I'm acting depressed and in withdrawl. All this time he has not let me have any space to be in withdrawl and deal with it, so I want to run away and talk to OM again! I know it's wrong I'm just saying what I've done. He doesn't seem to undertand its hard, its painful. I need time. He says hes lonely and wants SF, I'm just not there yet.

Ok I know everyone is going to come down on me.

-win

Owl,
I wonder if you might help my H in how to deal with my withdrawl issues? He need guidance on working on plan A.

-win

Win-

Well, your H is free to contact me here if he would like to talk...we can either start a seperate thread, or take our conversations to an email forum if preferred. I'd be glad to help him where I can...but please realize that I am NOT a counselor of any kind! I'm just a techno-geek who ended up going through some very tough times in my life.

Win, I think that a large part of the reason you're STILL feeling so depressed and down is because you're still in contact...not with the OM, but with all the OTHER things that have replaced your H. All of the flirting, the chatting online, etc... ALL of that is a replacement for what you should be getting from your H...and as long as you're still involved in ANY of that, you're preventing any improvement in your REAL life...the one OFF of the computer and phone.

You need to start identifying when and what provides you the opportunity to get into 'trouble' (i.e...drinking, being online alone, etc...) and start taking steps to avoid these circumstances. If you're not able to control yourself, then you and your H and your family should be allowed to HELP you to do what you need to do. Bluntly, he should disable the internet when he's not at the house or someone isn't there to 'keep you out of trouble'. Things along those lines...clearly you're trying, but you don't have the willpower to stick to it.

It's interesting that you say that your H 'broke into' your emails and such...because I'm sure that you know as a WW you should be ALLOWING him access to all of this. It's being accountable for your actions that will help you to start doing the right things.

I can totally understand that you're not ready for SF yet. Realize that the most likely reason your H is looking for that actually has little to do with 'lust'...SF is a BIG emotional need for most men. It's symbolic of the emotional joining that also takes place...and it's very common for this to be a point of contention when a couple is at the point that you two are.

Talk to him about it. Try to let him know that you understand his need/want, but that you're just not ready for it yet.

Hang in there. I honestly think that if you can manage to get yourself to the point where you're totally out of this habit of online flirting and phone conversations, and you've finally gotten ANY kind of other men out of your life, you'll gain a whole new perspective on things. And on yourself. You CAN do this...with help. Get the help you and your family needs.

Owl,
Yes I understand that. The bottom line for me is I don't know if I want my H anymore. Maybe I'm using the other men to not have to deal with my feelings. We have so many issues, I can't detail them all here, some things I just don't know if I will be able to get over. I know everyone says when the withdrawl ends I will have feelings for my H, but I don't know that will be the case. And am I suppose to stay with someone I don't love because I should? Maybe I'm afraid that I will go back to what it was before, me just pretending all is ok, when I don't feel anything. I just can't do that, I just can't.

All i can focus on now is NC with OM. That is a struggle. I emailed him friday, but I have not chatted with him in a week or more. I still struggle with it. It's gets easier knowing that he really doesnt want contact with me. However it sure doesn't feel good. The other men, I don't even care if I ever talk to again.

However I am a social person and I do miss just talking to friends I made online. Maybe someday I'll be allowed to just do that.

Win-

I know you don't want to hear this, but it's the absolute truth, and it bears repeating...NO ONE WHO IS IN WITHDRAWL OR AT THE END OF THE A EVER FEELS LIKE THAT THEY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE ANY FEELINGS FOR THEIR BS AGAIN...NO ONE!

It's the bottom line...your case is not unique or special in that. And if you've looked through this site at how many WS/FWS HAVE regained those feelings, then you can know, at least in your mind if not your heart right now, that there is still a chance for your M too. You know what...don't even worry about that right now. Right now, concentrate on doing the right THINGS, and deal with feelings about your H later, when they do or don't return.

Sending an email is still contact, regardless of whether or not he responded. And THAT is why I am saying that you need to take EXTREME measures to start helping YOURSELF to do the right things. You obviously don't have the self control to do them yourself. So work out with your H how HE can help you to do this.

Bottom line...YOU, as an adult...need to start being RESPONSIBLE for your actions. YOU choose to flirt online, make phone calls, send emails, etc...YOU! Regardless of how this started, YOU are the one who's continuing it...YOU are the one who is choosing to keep it going. See a pattern? So the changes need to start where???

Quit worrying about the OM, quit worrying about your H. Start worrying about YOU doing the right things for yourself, and for your family. You mentioned that you didn't want to split up because of what it would do for your kids...but if YOU keep on doing the destructive behaviour, YOU will force a seperation/divorce. Not your H, YOU.

You really haven't even started the real withdrawl...you still have to get the OM out of your life, and all the other men you're flirting with.

Putting the 2X4 away now.

Start working with your husband to come up with a PLAN on how to figure out what you're doing in the future...seperation or reconciliation, most of your first steps all need to be the same. You still need to take the steps needed to heal yourself and your husband.

Owl,

I know you are right. I do want to maintain NC so I can see for myself how I feel after the withdrawl is over. What worries me is how i felt before I'd even met OM. How my feelings for my H were already gone. But all I will focus on now is NC with OM. That's as far as I can think right now. That is painful enough for me at the moment. It seems when I get overwhelmed or pushed, that is when I seek out the others or go back to talking to OM.

H needs to let me go thru withdrawl before I can even deal with him and his needs. I'm not sure he can ever change, and if he can't after I'm through the withdrawl, then I will still have to go. I'm not going to live like I did before and I'm not going to let him be selfish and controlling of me ever again.

-win

Win-

Focus on NC with the OM, AND WITH ALL THE OTHER OM you have been flirting with!!! You need to do ALL of that, or it's meaningless. Make whatever changes that you need to in order to make this happen...like I suggested, ask your H to help you with that if you need to.

And you know what...if after you've done all that you needed to, and your H hasn't changed, or you've just totally been unable to regain your feelings for him, then of course you should work with him to move on. That only makes sense. And no one here is asking you to do anything else...all anyone wants you to do is to make that choice only AFTER you've done all that you need to do, and quit worrying about that day until it arrives.

So what's your PLAN to ensure NC with OM, and to end all of the online and phone flirting?

Win-

Owl is doing a fabulous job talking you through this, but I just want to jump in on this comment you made:

Quote

everyone says when the withdrawl ends I will have feelings for my H

Win, you may or may not have feelings of love for you H when withdrawal ends, but you will be able to think clearly and have reasonable thoughts about where your M stands. I am probably 90% through withdrawal and I still can't exactly identify my feelings for my H. I probably couldn't define them BEFORE the EA, so how would I be able to now? BUT, it is a place to start. Both parties recognize what has happened and both parties realize that something needs to be done with the M. So....... yes, focus now on getting OM out of your mind. THEN, after withdrawal, look at your M through "unfoggy" eyes and decide what steps to take. You and your H need to know that it will take time for you to work through the withdrawal.

Agreed...the bottom line is that you need to postpone making any decisions on your R and your M until you're able to do so with a clear head and heart.

You can't do that while you're still involved in any fashion with anyone, or still in the withdrawl from a relationship loss as well.

Yes owl you are right. It takes all my effort to work on NC, that I just can't focus on anything else right now. It's very hard for H to deal with. He wants me back, and now. He wants OM out of my life now. I'm trying to do that. It's taking all the effort and energy I can muster right now. I still miss him horribly. It's going to take time.

Owl my H (bassistist) is posting on the divorce forum.

Thanks for 2x4'ing me without killing me!!

-win

Getting him out of your life doesn't take any time at all....that's actually very simple. It's the grief that you deal with AFTER that happens that takes the time and work.

At this point, he's not totally out of your life, if you're still emailing him. Again...what's your PLAN for ending all the contact and flirting and such?!?! I'm not going to let go of that...you HAVE to plan this out, or you'll just keep falling back into things. I'll take a look for Bass's post, but still not letting you off the hook here, my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Win-

I wanted to ask you about this:

Quote

And third, and worst of all, she confirmed in an email something that I have suspected all along...that's she planning on leaving me as soon as the school year ends. She wants to wait until school is out so the kid's work won't be effected this year.

What's the status on this? This was an excerpt from Bass's thread.

Take a look at what I posted on his thread, and what I suggested as a start in your 'plan' that I keep going on about.

Owl,

Yes I was thinking of leaving in June if things didn't work out, but nothing was set in stone.

Win,
I'm sorry. The effects of withdrawls can last well past June, especially since NC just recently started (or is about to start). Your perspective will not be clear in June, if that is your goal. You are so embroiled in OM right now, really, you cannot make an unbiased judgement about your M for quite some time.

Your friend,
GS

Win, I have to agree with Gentlsoul -you aren't going to be feeling much better by June -in fact, it might be worse if you successfully keep to the NC (with everyone).

The one thing that worried me the most was the idea that my WS was putting a time limit on our recovery. In the beginning I told her that from my understanding the whole process can take a few years (she said at the time she couldn't wait that long , but now seems to be willing to see). It was really about 8 weeks or so before my wife could tell me that she was hopeful for our marriage and willing to give it time.

My advice to you is for now to have faith that the people out her are right -that you are in the fog and not rational. Give the NC some time to work and tell you H that you are giving it the time (if you can -I think it will mean a lot to him -nothing worse than feeling given up on).

Win - Everyone here is here to help and support you. Withdrawal is so very hard. It's something I never wish to go through again in my life. Owl, has some very good points about really making an effort for NC and taking extreme measures to make it happen. It will be tough Win, but once you make it through withdrawal, you will be able to think clearly about yourself, your H and your M. Work together with your H to make NC happen for both of you. I, like you, prolonged my withdrawal by continuing to have some contact with the OM. It was hard and I do know how you feel, but NC is the only way to make it through. Everytime you feed yourself with a "little contact", you keep those thoughts of the OM fresh and the withdrawal process takes longer.

We are here to guide and support you through this because we care about you Win!

Win-

Just got done catching up on Bass's thread over on the divorce page.

I've got to say that there are a few things that I just don't think you're quite getting, friend.

You posted there that you were going to have one last chat, and it would be your last. WHY?!?!?!

Do you have any idea how hurtful, how disrespectful, how flat out selfish that is?!?!

I'm sorry, but it's time you started to actually take some responsibility here for what you're doing. Let me be as flat out blunt as I can...I know that you're angry at Bass for the way that he treated you, and the way that your marriage was for years. But, it still takes two to tango. You had your share in that marriage as well. You COULD have left, had you chose. You also could have taken any number of other steps, like turning him in to the police, or scheduling him for re-hab on the drugs...you could have laid down the law on the long hours of gaming, and on the trips.

BOTH OF YOU HAD OPTIONS, AND BOTH OF YOU HAD A HAND IN LETTING YOUR MARRIAGE GET OUT OF HAND.

Now that it's all 'out of the bag', he's taking the steps that he sees as needed to fix the situation. You're not. You're also continuing to do things DELIBERATELY INTENDED TO HURT HIM. The online flirting, the continued chats, etc... You need to quit worrying about 'getting even' for how the marriage was before the A's, and start worrying about fixing what's wrong now.

You feel as though this is all due to 'withdrawl', which is why you're continuing to do this. After looking back through all of these posts, and all of the threads that have gone on between you and Bass, I'm not so sure at this point. Honestly, while my wife did do and say some very hurtful things, and while SOME of it was deliberately intended to hurt, for the most part she didn't mean to hurt me. SHE ACTUALLY REGRETTED WHAT I WENT THROUGH as a result of her EA. She knew it was going to hurt me, she regretted that it would, but she did it anyway. There, I've said it. I know it. BUT AT LEAST SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HURT TO ME. She regretted hurting me, totally regardless of the withdrawl, totally regardless of how she felt during her withdrawl. I've not seen a shred of that in any of your posts to this point.

All I've seen from your numerous posts and discussions here is a habit of bringing up how you felt before the A, whenever anyone has tried to point out to you that the choice to have the EA was yours. That tells me that you're STILL not actually accepting the RESPONSIBILITY for the EA. You blame him for the conditions of your M that lead to it, and you justify the EA in that manner. Without taking any responsibility for your own role in the M prior to the A, for your own actions and behavior during the A, nor for your actions and behavior SINCE the EA.

At this point, if there is a chance for your family to recover from this at all, you both need to make some changes. You have two options. Either take the steps to see if there is anything salvagable in your M and your family, or just call it a done deal now. It's that simple.

Regardless, at this point I think that you BOTH need to take steps to fix the hole in your family...and that hole started with the internet. Either remove it, or change how it's managed (keylogger, passworded access, etc...). YOU need to become accountable for your actions. You need to stop citing 'withdrawl' as a reason for your continued contact with OM and others. You need to actually START withdrawl by actually ending the contact. THEN Bass will have to step back, and let you work through that. And after you've gone through that process....THEN decide what your next steps should be.

By no means am I saying that Bass didn't do a number of things wrong that lead up to the state of your M right now. Not at all. Had my wife acted in any of those ways, our M would have drastically changed or ended YEARS ago. I don't know that he's made any changes in his behavior since then...YOU do, since you're there with him. That's up to YOU to see.

At this point, the choices are up to the two of you.

I'm done. There isn't any more advice I can offer you at this point. It's all up to YOU now. Time to do what you need to do.

2BN-
How are you doing with your 'forum' issue? Have you discussed it with your H yet? Hope things are going well for you.

Sys-
I know that I had no set 'timeline' for when I expected our marriage to recover. I was actually very surprised at how fast our situation turned around... How's the online gaming going for the two of you? We still play occasionally, but haven't been on very much lately. As a matter of fact, I just sent a 'letter of resignation' as an officer in the guild I'm in, as I just don't have the time or energy to do that any longer.

Cards-
How are things going for you my friend? Have things started to come together for you and your H yet?

Win-
Hope you take the last post I'd sent to you in the manner it's meant...to help.

Hey Owl,

The game's good. We found a great guild and we're having a lot of fun. Pre-D-Day, my W was REALLY into EQ and I wasn't so one of the things that built animosity in our marriage (unspoken animosity) was my EQ widowhood and the fact that she had a social life that I wasn't a part of. At the time I never saw the hurt it was causing me, I guess i didn't want to say "honey, that game you love so much is coming between us", nor did I see ahead far enough to join her in it.

Now though, we have this game in common and I think it's helping us reconnect on a recreational level. We have the oppurtunity to work together on common goals and have the same experiences to discuss and the same goofballs to dis -it's nice. That and the guild only knows us as a couple, which is nice to be seen that way and to be able to present ourselves that way.

The only downside is that sometimes I feel like it's a distraction from working on us in a more serious way. It does provide a convenient escape from the deep issues. Frankly, most of the time I think it's beneficial to keep it light, but I do worry that maybe it also provides a quick escape from having to sit face to face. I have no doubt thatif I said to my W "hey let;s not play tonight, I need to talk" she wouldn't balk, but generally, I 'd rather not bring things "down" unless I need to.

That brings up an interesting area of discussion for people in our situation (Cards?) what is of more benefit to a couple trying to recapture their affection and love -keeping it light and relaxed, trying to not get too heavy (like it was when we first met), or digging into the dirt and getting the deep feelings out. I imagine as with most things, it's a balance of the two.

Owl - I still haven't discussed the forum issue with my H. Things are going really well with my H and I right now.

I didn't get a chance to explain what happened at that marriage seminar on Saturday. There were many communication skills given to us to learn and to practice that very day. Quite interesting and helpful ideas. Towards the end of the day, we were shown a clip to the movie I referred to the other day. The scene was one in which the H & W were on their way to pick up their children after being gone from camp. They were going to break the news to their children that they were going to get divorced. As the couple were on their way, the W had flashbacks of their life over all the years of them together and the children. She then realized even if they divorced, it did not change the history of what they had and the history could not be rewritten. It was quite emotional. They both realized that yes, marriage is tough and they have had many bumps along the way, but that it was worth it. They were best friends - they have a history of "us". They ended up not divorcing. This scene practically gave me a break-down right there. I could not fight or hold back my tears. Now...my H was upset that I was crying. He didn't want me to make a scene so that no one would "know anything". He can be very prideful. Well, this made things even worse for me to be dealing with these emotions and then to deal with my H trying to tell me to stop crying! Well, I just about calmed myself and the next thing and last thing we were to do for the day was to pretend that our spouses were dead and that we were talking over them and reflecting about our lives and what meant the most etc... This was to put in perspective for us how un-important so many issues are that we worry about. Could not do that at all or the breakdown would have occurred again. We were to actually have our spouse lay on the floor while we talked over them. So to sum that day up, it really made me think about "us" and our M and what possibly I could have thrown all away all because of the stupidity I was in with these EA's. I realized how much I love my H and care for him so very much. I honestly never had thought about any of this in quite this way until that day. I look at the OM now as someone who I don't even know why I would have thrown my family and M away for. Why did it take me so long to see and realize this? I believe the final "fog" has lifted!

2BN-

Glad to hear how things are coming into perspective!! That's great news!

Remember that the fog will still occasionally creep in, but now it will be out a LOT more than it will be in. Glad to hear that things are going well.

Owl - Did your wife go in and out of the fog for a period of time and how long? I can't imagine the fog ever again being the way it was a few months ago.

Yeah, she would go in and out of it occasionally. Sometimes I think she still does somewhat. Not nearly to the point it was, but still she'll say something that is contrary to what she'd said before. Kinda hard to explain, but it's just one of those things.

But it's not nearly to the degree that it had been before, so don't panic about it, friend. You've done a great job, and I'm sure that you and your husband are going to be fine.

Win Bin,

You said

Quote

Yes I was thinking of leaving in June if things didn't work out, but nothing was set in stone.

Then I read your posts to your husband. You don't know what you want do you? Well, let me tell you something you had better start wanting really really fast.

You should be wanting a much better strategy for dealing with life than you have right now. If you don't learn how to deal with life better than calling men, talking to them on the internet, doing whatever with these men, then you are DOOMED to a life of misery.

It does not matter if you stay with your H or not, YOUR problems are going to follow you, and they are your lack of commitment, your lack of boundaries, and your inability to face situations. So you hide in the ether, you have affairs in the ether, you rub you H's face in it with the help of the ether. But, you have shown no ability to get out of the ether and face life.

That means, that your next relationship whether it is with OM or someone else is pretty much going to follow the same path. When things get tough, you will hide in the fantasy of the ether, that the internet brings you.

IF you want to have a happy life (with or without your H), you need to go to NC with this OM, and cease all of your other chatting with the other men on line. You need to stop seeking happiness IN other people. You need to go through withdrawal, feel the PAIN of it, the LONELINESS of it, the DESPAIR of it. You MUST endure all of it, and come out of the other side, OR your life will end up being a repeat of what has happened so far.

You can run but you cannot hide from YOURSELF. You have blamed everything on your H, but in reality ALL of the mess you are in NOW is a product of your decisions, your choices, and you hiding from hard things.

I am NOT saying stay with your H or leave your H. Your issues have NOTHING to do with your H, because it is clear you feel there is nothing wrong with betrayal, there is nothing wrong in talking and sharing with men that KNOW you are married and hence don't have your best interests at heart, and you think there is NOTHING wrong with blaming someone else for you stupid decisions.

Have I been clear enough with you? Do you want me to become really blunt? I think for you to have a happy life you have to face and endure the consequences of your internal failures, and that means NC with OM, and the OTHER MEN, and enduring withdrawal from them. This is NOT about your marriage Win Bin, he is just collateral damage to your inability to face life.

I wish there was a nicer, more comfy way to say to you what I have said, but the others here have been doing that and you still are contacting the OM, and chatting with other men on the net. Time to stop. And address the baggage you are carrying. You remind me of the time honored advice.

When you find yourself in a deep hole, the first thing you should do is "put down the shovel."

You need to put down the shovel (the chatting with men and OM), and start to address how to get out of this hole.

Please, please think about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

Owl,

When I said I was having one last chat, I was referring to Bass' one last coaster trip. I didn't mean I was doing it, I was trying to point out how hypocritical he's being by taking his trip. However I do think the space would be good for us at this point. Whatever he wants to do is fine with me at this point.

Yes I haven't been thinking about how I hurt H because I have so much resentment built up through the years. I was wrong. Yes I am responible for falling in love with OM and hiding that from H, even though H knew I was talking to OM and other OM's.

On my feelings before the A, I was merely stating that before any of this happened (NOT HOW I REMEMBER IT NOW), I had doubts about the marriage. I tried to talk to him, he wasn't ready to listen. He is now. Yes I regret not walking out on him earlier to get him to see my point of view on his destructive addictions and behavior.

What I was referring to about helping H with plan A, was having him let me be while I go through withdrawal. He wants me to go through it, but doesn't want me to be depressed and takes it personally. I can't help how it's making me feel, I can't just walk around happy right now. Every few days he, gets angry because I'm sad and depressed and pressures me to be nice and happy. It just pushes me away.

I have to do NC for myself not just for H. It does me no good emotionally to contact the OM anymore and I want to get over it. NO ONE can help me do that.

-win

Justlearning,

Yes I need a better way of dealing with life, like i should have walked out on H years ago for his controlling, addictive behaviors. I'd like to say he had a lack of commitment to ME for many years. He put his addictions, games, hobbies always ahead of me. He even agreed to let me flirt/phone with guys because he was getting what he wanted out of it:sex.

I blame my H for what is his fault. BUT I also blame myself for not standing up to him years ago and demanding a better relationship or leaving. Yes I was an idiot. We played this flirting game together and I was bored and lonely, ripe to fall in love with someone else. I let it happen IT WAS WRONG.

Both H and I need to better deal with our relationship and LIFE. NOT JUST FOR US but for ourselves as individuals no matter what happens.

WE ARE BOTH TO BLAME..I've stopped my chatting and started NC!!

I have to work now.
-win

Win,

I agree that it's not realistic to expect you to be happy and not depressed at this point in time. I'm curious if that really IS Bass's feelings, or if you two just aren't communicating well on this.

Again, have the two of you worked out a PLAN on how to help you ensure that you don't slip anymore on the chatting and NC with the OM?

What about a PLAN to ensure that Bass is meeting some of YOUR requirements/needs?

Right now, it appears to me that you're just coasting along, waiting to see what happens next. Why not start DOING something to help yourselves? Believe it or not, just doing NC is NOT all you can manage. If you start working on something OTHER than that, you'll be amazed at how that can help you keep that off of your mind all the time.

When we were in your phase of things, we were working on a LOT of things. We were working on helping my wife's resume, looking at job options for her, we were sorting through a lot of our 'stuff' just to streamline things in case we DID seperate. We actually rearranged the house for an in-house seperation.

Get an idea here?

Good luck my friend.

Win Bin,

Did you notice that I was not talking to your H or about your H, or even your marriage, and yet virtually ALL of your response is about your H and "WE ARE BOTH TO BLAME".

You have missed the point. Blame is useless and has NOT solved a single problem for you. Stop the blaming and face who you are, what you are, and what you want to be. This is about you. Pure and simple YOU have to address YOURSELF. Just going around medicating yourself with strange men will not help you.

Please start to refocus this on yourself. Please address YOUR issues. Let your H deal with his.

God Bless,

JL

I AM working on myself. I'm working on NC. Yes, I AM TO BLAME FOR MY EA. How many more ways can I say it??? I am changing my behavior.

We are in MC. We don't go on the pc's unless we are both in the room. He's going to put spyware back on my pc.

2BN-

It sounds like you had several "light-bulb" moments at your marriage seminar. I am glad it had such positive impact on you. It sounds like that experience would be beneficial for many WS's. Maybe if we could look back and objectively "see" a videotape of our marital life it would break down the walls and the "shaded" views of what some of us seem to remember.

I am so happy that your fog has lifted!!! By the way, Happy Anniversary!!!

Sys-

You and your W sound like you're doing wonderfully well, too. As you suggest, my H & I struggle with the conversations, too. Quite frankly, we've given the "deep" talks a bit of a break. For myself, so many weeks of self-analysis has gotten a bit tiring. I have realized that it was a half a year ago that this all started for me. Six months on a rollercoaster of the entire spectrum of emotions. I am now grateful to be feeling practically "normal" these days and able to focus on something beyond myself.

Owl-

My H & I are no longer talking about OM and the EA. We are still working towards concentrating on each other's needs, and we definitely need lots of improvement in that area. He said it has been really helpful to read my posts and know what I'm feeling - although I don't quite understand why he doesn't just ask. I am very open with my feelings and would tell him anything he wants to know. Anyway, if it helps him I'm OK with it. As far as rekindling those old "in-love" feelings, I think that will take a while and some real intensive work. Our M didn't fall apart overnight, it won't be repaired overnight either. I think we both are still adjusting to the idea of the work ahead, but I do believe that this experience has given us both pause to think and recommit in our own minds. We both now KNOW that ignoring our relationship is dangerous. It is good that we recognize not to take M for granted.

Win-

I feel your pain & struggles. I know you are so conflicted, but please try hard on the NC - regardless of what happens with your H you MUST get beyond OM. That part of your life is over, he has moved on, too. Maybe it's time for your own IC to help you. Everyone here believes that you can start the NC, but only YOU can do it. You are addicted like many of us are and have been. We want to see you move past OM. Take it one day at a time, Win.

Cards - It's good to hear from you. It sounds as if you and your H are moving in the right direction with concentrating on meeting each other's needs. You had mentioned that it had been 6 months since this all started for you. Mine is going on 2 years in July from when everything started for me. Sometimes I think about how much time and energy I wasted on the EA's and how I "checked out" of reality for most of that time. I know it has had many effects on our family as a whole that I wish I could go back and erase. But, I really see an improvement recently and especially after this past weekend. My H even has been surprising me by giving me the "words" I want to hear when I'm not expecting it. And the best part about it, is that I can receive them from him now! You are right that our M's won't be repaired overnight, but you and your H are both striving towards recomitting yourselves and really working on communication. I just wanted to encourage you with how things have been going with us and the time I was involved in the A's was much longer. If I would reflect to a year ago, I would never believe that I would have this much love back in our M as we do now. I give all the glory to God for that, because on my own, I could not accomplish that!

Win - Hope you are doing well today. I know you are trying hard with NC and I KNOW you will get through it just like Cards and I have.

Cards-

Very glad to hear that you're doing well!!! It sounds like you and your H are moving forward, which is awesome! Hopefully the 'in love' feelings will come back in time as well. Realize that there is a huge difference between the 'love' that a long time established couple feels and the 'in love' like what you probably felt with your OM.

My wife and I had a rough time for a few hours yesterday. A conversation we had over the phone led to a discussion about the EA, which we really don't talk much about anymore. One thing led to another, and she was very upset. She still feels soooo guilty over the whole thing, and that really prevents her from talking rationally about it at times. But, we calmed down and made up, so it's all good now.

Just remember, everyone....it takes TIME as well as effort to heal things. Like you said Cards...it took a long time for our M's to get to where they were at...so it shouldn't surprise us that it will take a while to get it fixed too!

Thanks owl for being very supportive. If I didn't need everyone's help and support I wouldn't have posted here to get 2x4'd!

Everyday does get a tiny bit easier, but it's still very hard. I still think of OM everyday, and it seems there's always something to remind me of him. Last night I had a dream about him. Don't know how i can control that. But I haven't contacted him so for me this is good. I just keep reminding myself that he's over me and there's no reason to go there regardless of my current/future situation. But I can't say I don't think about it and it doesn't hurt. But that's why I'm posting here, so I don't go there.

staying strong for me
-win

Win - You are doing so well with the NC! Proud of you! The thoughts and memories of the OM are going to be strong right now since you are just starting NC. I do understand that so well and I remember the hurting feelings that you are talking about. BUT..It does get better I PROMISE!!! If you keep up with the NC, those hurting feelings that you describe will start to go away. It takes TIME, but you will get there! How are things with you and your H right now?

Win-

I've got to say I'm actually very surprised that you don't hate me at this point. I know that what I'm saying to you a lot of times is NOT what you want to hear. Believe it or not, I don't do it to hurt or attack, but to try to get you to see things from another perspective.

I KNOW how hard things can be in this kind of situation. I've been in something similar. Not the same, and I'm also not you or your H. But I know what I felt going through my situation, and I've learned a lot about my wife's feelings and thoughts during all of this.

Seriously, take what I suggested to heart. Start looking OUTSIDE of everything for some distraction from your withdrawl. And do it WITH your H...even if you don't feel love for him, he's still at least a friend to you. Start working on something outside of all of this with him...and don't let the issues get involved in whatever it is you two work on. Make an agreement to keep it seperate from all of that.

To put it another way...start off by repairing the FRIENDSHIP with your husband that's been damaged by all the years of things first. Then worry about anything further after that. Building the friendship with him will also help you get past the loss of the OM...it will.

Hang in there. You two CAN make it.

Good job,Win!!

You WILL continue to think of OM, but the hurt will become less painful as you stick to NC. Each day you will become a little stronger and more resolute. You will be able to talk yourself out of it faster and easier than the day before. Work hard to avoid the situations that draw you into to feeling like you "need" OM. Being alone, on the pc, etc.

The pain you feel as you withdraw is what you will need to address for yourself, like JL implied. It's too raw right now, but in time you will see that the pain is about something inside you, not really the loss of OM that you didn't really know. It's all about YOU. Keep posting and writing, Win. I know that being able to do that was instrumental for me. I thought everyone would get tired of my endless feelings and postings, but they didn't. Everyone will keep supporting you as you fight to get out of this.

Owl,

I don't know if we 2 can make it. But we do need to try repairing the friendship. Basically we have to start a new relationship. We never really had much of one according to MC. He's never been emotionally intimate with me and he's got so many issues to work through on his own. We are 2 different people now and we have to see if those 2 people are compatable and can be in love. I can't go back to the way it was before, and I CAN'T stay with someone I don't love. However I have to see if he is someone I can love. As soon as I stop loving OM!

H still has a driving need to control me and the situation, and I just have to keep reminding him that it's going to take time and I can't rush through this. If he would just give me the space, I think I could move on much faster.

WE are planning to do some things together and go to some concerts together.

-win

Ah man, things are going so well, but now the OM posts this on my W's old guild board and I know she going to see it -don't need this crap now.

"Thank you ****, my friend and partner in more than just a silly game. I owe you more than any ding, and I miss you terribly."

I can't stop her from seeing it if she goes there. Not sure what to do about it.

I want to punch the [censored].

Should I contact him directly and tell him to pull it?

Sys-

Not sure what you can do about it. Contacting him and asking him to pull it isn't likely to do much good. At least that's my guess, I have no idea about what kind of person he is or how well the two of you knew each other.

Another option MIGHT be to tell your wife that you saw the message, kinda giving her both a heads up that he'd posted something, as well as letting her know that you're AWARE of his reach out for her.

The kind of contact he's doing is called 'fishing'. What he's doing is sending a 'completely innocent' message out to her, and he's hoping that she'll respond. And then, things end up going on from there. It's not a surprise to hear that he's doing it...my wife's OM did the same thing via email about 6 weeks after d-day...about 2 1/2 weeks since their LAST contact.

Sadly, it 'kinda' worked in my case too. She didn't respond to THAT email (she told me about it when she got it), but she 'accidentally' copied him on an ecard the next day, and he sent an email to her OTHER email account. That one she DID respond to...and that's the one she didn't realize that I'd seen because I was checking her email accounts. This all lead to another big blow up between her and I, but the good news is that it lead to her sending an NC letter to him. There was one more slip on her part a week later, but then HE was the one who told her not to contact him, and that was the last communication that they had.

If you have/had any kind of friendship with the OM prior to the A, then you might consider contacting him yourself and asking him to pull it. If you think he's likely to be stupid about it, then you're better off talking with the wife, and telling her both what is there, and your fears about the whole thing. Share with her my story too, and let her know what he's up to. Make it clear that he's playing a game with her to see if she's gonna fall back into the whole thing.

Sorry you're going through this my friend. I KNOW what it's like.

Thanks for the speedy reply Owl. I didn't know the guy at all so maybe you're right -just thought I could step up and tell him take a hike.

I just noticed the post date -it was early yesterday afternoon -she may have already seen it.My thought is this -we have an MC session tonight ,I might just bring it up there.

This chaps my hide soooo much. I really thought things were in the clear. I have no idea how this will effect my wife.

I know what you mean...remember we've had to deal with the fact that my wife's OM just started playing again recently too.

Honestly, it's up to you if you want to wait until tonite to talk about it, or talk about it before hand with her. Be careful not to LB her with the whole thing...wait and read her reaction to this before you say or do anything else.

If you're able to post on that board, you might also consider posting a reply to it saying "Hey, this is [Sysyphus], xxx's husband. She sent you a letter a while ago asking you to never contact her again. I'd appreciate it if you gave US the courtesy of respecting her wishes in this and not trying to start something up again. You know that you're no longer welcome in our lives."

Don't know how your wife would feel about that response, but that's another possibility.

On a side note...you and I should go back to LS, and use the PM system there to exchange email addys, so if you get something like this you can get a quick personal response if you need it bro.

Sys - I would definately speak to your W about this either prior to MC or at MC. If it had happened to me, I may be tempted to write something back. Also, that very last email the OM sent me, my H called the OM just to make sure there would be no further contact. Don't know if you have this guy's # (and it doesn't matter if you know him or not), but it may be worth it for him to hear your voice and for you to let him know personally that you wish for no further messages to your W...otherwise he may continue his "fishing". Sorry this is happening to you.

I was going to take a half day anyway so I think I'll take advantage of my youngest being in school and talk to her when I get home. At first I was so wound up I thought it should wait until tonight, but frankly I just want to get to this. Maybe it will be good for us.

Thanks all.

Sys-

Good call. Talk with your wife and work out a way to handle this latest development....TOGETHER!!

Make it a chance for the two of you to HEAL instead of letting it be a setback.

Well we talked. The results were mixed but mostly good I think.

When I got home I got right to the point and told her I went out to the forum and saw the post and asked if she had seen it. She said no -that she doesn't go out there that often.

Well, that's the bad part. Right before I left for home, I checked the board again and noticed she was logged in. So her "no I didn't see it" was pretty much a big ole un-truth. I told her that I had seen her logged in. She apologized and I told her that THIS is why I have trust issues. She was upset that I had to spy on her and I tried to explain that this was exactly why -I want to believe her but when I catch her in a lie about this thing, that it just reenforces my mistrust. Concealment has become so easy for her it seems.

Either way, she told me she didn't rise to the bait and didn't plan to. That she has been good all this time -which I believe. In the midst of our discussion I guess the whole "please be open and honest whith me" plea worked because she told me that a while back OM had expressed his desire to contact her through a mutual friend to which she said no. I was glad she could tell me that. Wasn't happy that she hadn't told me in the first place, but was glad she told me now.

We took the opportunity since we were already crying, to talk about a few other things. She was really hesitant to talk, but I gently coxed her into saying something. She wanted to tell me that she didn't want a physical relationship yet. I told her I figured that was a given and that she shouldn't feel like I am even trying or hoping at this point. Told her it would be her call when to resume. I did tell her that I am extremely attracted to her and desperately want to have a relationship again, but not until she was ready -in the meantime, I would have to deal with it.That discussion brough up a whole host of issues that I had with our sex life in the past, our mutual withdrawal from each other ,etc. A good amount of tears, but neither of us beat the other up. We did express our feelings about behaviours that were upseting us (me keeping tabs on her and her concealing things from me).

The most upsetting part to me was that she said she hoped she could find romance with me again. I know she's not feeling "in love" with me right now -maybe never, but GOd, what can I do? I'm happy to here she hopes we can reconnect, but at the same time we both seem so convinced that it's a longshot. I'm so in love with her. This feeling of unrequited love is devouring me yet still I soldier on. Sometimes I feel like the pressure to fall in love all over again is going to doom us to fail. Hurry up damnit -fall in love!

The other thing that worries me is that despite the NC -that she still sees OM as a fallback for happiness in case we don't work out. She's had a taste of new love and I can't say that I can give her that. How can I be new to her? How can we overcome 14 years of good and bad and feel those feelings again? I'm not sure what her requirement for being "in-love" is.

Well at least we have something fresh and meaty to chew on at MC tonight. Thanks all for getting me over the hump this morning.

Sys-

Well, it does sound like mixed results. I'm sorry that you found her in another lie again...did she say WHY she lied about it? I just can't imagine why she would lie about something like that, especially since she knew that you had seen his post.

Bluntly, while she may feel like you don't have a right or reason to 'keep tabs on her', she needs to recognize that there is only one way for her to regain your trust. Through a lengthy time of verified, accountable behavior. She has to demonstrate to you that she IS trustworthy, and the only way that can happen is if you have the means to VERIFY that her words and actions match up. You might consider talking about this at MC tonite. And she needs to be aware that right now, as a result of her EA, you are hyper aware of ANY lie or deception. Even if it has nothing to do with what's happened, it's still going to be difficult to deal with.

I think you're doing well by not pressuring her too much on the SF, and re-building your M. Like I'd suggested to Win earlier on this thread, work on rebuilding the friendship first. But, make sure that she understands that your M won't just magically 'be better' all on it's own...it's not until she CHOOSES to start working on repairing that part of your lives that you can hope to see any real progress. My wife had to learn that the hard way too...but she did. Again, you might see if she's read my thread on LS...as it seems to be so similar to your own story.

Hang in there friend. Hope MC goes well, and you both have a good weekend!

Sys-

Has your W been open regarding her withdrawal process from this EA? Has she talked to you about how she has felt better with time, the ups and downs? Has she tried to explain it to you? You have been living with this for weeks and months and have gotten the sense of improvement on many fronts. You have communicated well with her and she with you, right? You have had several breakthroughs and very emotional conversations. You have had some reconnection, right? My point is that you will have to assess whether she is still foggy and "snowing" you, or if this was just a blip. No question, she was wrong in denying that she had seen the post. Yes, she has to know about the trust issues and the hurt for you, etc. I'm only suggesting that you take a deep breath and not jump to any conclusions. You have seen on this thread and others that oftentimes it is 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. My H & I experienced that not long ago when he read this thread.

There still may be some withdrawal for your W as well, meaning there may be a situation or trigger that makes her brain falter and be weak.....maybe only for 1 minute or 1 hour. And maybe it happens only every few days, then once a week, then once a month, but less and less frequent in any case if there is NC. Seeing OM post undoubtedly made her weak for that instance, maybe causing her to make that bad decision of not being honest about it. I know that I had been doing great, then all of a sudden today I am struggling. For me not even a OM trigger, but a lot of job stress and other unrelated stress.

Again, I am not defending her action, just trying to explain maybe where her head was.

She has been open to a point. She tells me when she's down and when she's feeling better and more optimistic, but honestly, she is painfully uncomfortable talking to me about the EA and the NC other than she's doing it. She has been confiding in some girlfriends for support -not unlike how I've been out here. I wonder still if she really understands the wrongness and the hurt -she says she does but I don't get the sense that she has completely broken through on that area.

As for why she didn't tell me, I believe it's all part of the same pattern that got us here in the first place -she's scared to upset me. She doesn't want to hurt me. I don't know if she gets it yet, but again today, with this as an example I explained to her that nothing hurts more than the dishonesty, the concealment and the betrayal of trust. that I NEED her to show me I can trust her. And that I need to verify that she is being honest. That I simply can't take her at face value for now. It really kills and offends her I think that I don't trust her ,but she needs to put that on herself. Up until January 29th 2005, I trusted her absolutely and unconditionally, in 5 seconds, 3-4 words and a glance, that was shattered and it's going to take A LOT on HER part to put that back together. As I told her once a while back, even if we don't make it, as the mother of my children, I need to be able to trust her.

I do believe that in her heart, she is sincere in making the effort. I understand that there will be mistakes on both our parts. I wish I could make us both perfect, but obvioulsy I can't and this one blip won't be the end. In one way I think it served a good purpose in that it perfectly illustrated my trust issues. That's not how I thought it was going to go or where the discussion was going but... At least it wasn't anything too major. The going is slow, but perhaps this is still a step in the right direction. We learn from our mistakes right?

Quote

But, make sure that she understands that your M won't just magically 'be better' all on it's own...it's not until she CHOOSES to start working on repairing that part of your lives that you can hope to see any real progress.

Yeah that's the sticky part ain't it? For now she seems to feel that doing NC, going to MC and making an effort to spend time together is what is neccessary. I still feel like I'm the one that has to lead the emotional repair work. As with many things in our marriage, I am the initiator. This is OK for now, but at some point, yes, I'd like to see her take a more active role in the work.

Thanks again guys. Just when I was worried I had nothing to contribute to the thread....

Hmmm....you might look for a tactful way to talk tonite in MC about whether it's GUILT that's holding her from talking to you about this, or what.

I know that guilt is the main thing that has prevented my wife from being able to deal with some of our conversations rationally. Case in point, the issue we had the other day. Something was said that made me think about the past, and made it feel like she's always going to have a part of herself held back for OM. It's not what she meant to say, but it's how I took it. She knew something was bothering me, but I didn't want to bring it out because I KNEW how she'd react...and she reacted exactly as I expected when she finally INSISTED that I talk about what was on my mind. She blew up. She used her standard phrase..."this is NEVER going to end", which I hate.

We have worked things out, but I wanted to use that as an example for you on why my wife doesn't like to talk about the EA with me, and think that perhaps this is why she hasn't talked with you about it.

You might simply remind her that at this point, talking about it isn't going to do any more harm. All talking about it now will do is to begin to re-build that trust as you see that she can be honest with you NOW at least. If she can't be honest with you NOW, then what does she expect from you?

Had our MC session last night. Like I said, we had something nice for our MC to help us chew on and it went well I think. He did a good job of helping us each understand where the other was coming from and helped mitigate the bad feelings involved (my sense that she was being untruthful still and her feeling of being spyed on).Overall, he seemed pleased that we were working through these things.

We also talked about some of the things that led us to where we were and what our needs were. The MC didn't give us specific instructions, but did validate those feelings and I think helped my W understand where I might be coming from -was a rehash of some of the things we had discussed earlier in the day. We both expressed the sense of pressure we feel to fall in love again and he said to take it easy -it was going to happen. I don't know that he has a crystal ball, but it was nice to hear him cheerleading us. He said to give it time.

On the way home, I again tried to talk W into coming out here, to read my threads, to talk to Cards, but she said (and I understand) that this is my support network and she has her own and would prefer that we be able to be as honest as possible and that if she was in on my stuff here that I wouldn' be able to get the support I needed b/c I would hold back if I knew she was reading my posts. She may be right.

What did come out of it was that she told me how much her one friend has been of help. How her friend has talked her down from calling or IMing OM a few times. I asked her if that was hard and she said yes, she still has a powerful urge to contact him, but she hasn't. She told me she's gone as far as putting him on her buddy list to see if he was on, but never actually contacted him. She told me she would call her friend to get talked down or at least walk away from the computer. I don't like hearing this, but it was the first time she ever talked to me about what she's feeling and doing about the NC. I thanked her for telling me and told her that THAT was exactly what I needed from her -that without knowing, I couldn't really understand her , couldn't do anything to help her and more importantly, not knowing let my imagination run wild -usually for the worst.

It was a painful, but really honest day and I for one feel better fo it. I think my W had a really hard time with it, but my hope is that since we handled it well, that she will be more willing to be open to me about other things as we move along.

The one thing that does worry me is wondering if she is still holding on the OM as a backup if we don't make it. My fear is that we can't make it if he is still in her mind a real possibility. Her disclosure that she still has powerful urges to contact him makes me wonder if she hasn't really decided that the NC is forever. I think sometimes the idea she might have is that it's forever only if we can work it out. I turn to you guys Cards, 2B, what do you think?

I wonder if this is something to bring up with her ,or will time take care of it? I'd rather not get accusational: "You need to forget about him if we are going to have a chance" if time will do the work for me.

Hope you are all having a good weekend.

Sys - It sounds like you and your W communicated well and you both know where each other is at. I know it was tough with her not being totally honest at first with that message from the OM. But I can see myself in your W. I would tend to have the same thoughts and reactions where I would be afraid to upset or hurt my H, not that it wasn't wrong, but it's that natural reaction as a WS. We have to re-train ourselves to be honest and know that our H's want that honesty. Our natural reaction is to hide the OM. It was good that she was strong not to react to the OM's message, but I do understand how you feel about her dishonesty as my H would feel exactly as you did in that situation.

As far as your W using the OM as a backup.....well, I can't answer that for her. But...I can identify that she may be still holding onto what she felt during the EA. She is still working through her feelings it seems. I think that she is doing great with NC and even though she has those urges, she is not giving in to them. That is what is important. Even at this stage for me, I still sometimes feel those urges. It's great that she has a friend to really help her through this.

I believe the longer she sticks to NC, she will become stronger and stronger. You both are doing really great with communicating and that's important. Continue to encourage her to be honest with her feelings. I hope this helps somewhat...I only had a minute to get on here and if I have more thoughts I'll try to write more later. Glad things went well at the MC.

Sys,
I don't know how long your wife has been in NC, but I know for me at least it will be ages before I can forget about OM, if ever. I don't think a WS can make a decision to forget about OM. We can make a decision to NC them and slowly forget about them, or have them become less important to us. My H is the same way, kind of "get over it already". Just deciding on NC for me was a step, getting over it is another story. And moving on with the M, yet another.

NC is VERY hard and I think WS don't want to let BS's know how hard it is. IT's a struggle, everyday, I guess I can see why it's linked to addiction! Because it sure feels like one when you are trying to give it up!

I don't know what your time line has been, but it seems to be a process, a long process, with many ups and downs and some setbacks. We all have triggers, some we don't even realize that just pop up now and then.

I really sound a lot better than I'm actually doing. I don't know if the weekends are harder, being home much of the day, or if being at work in front of the pc all day is. I just know every day is hard. Some harder. And though the depression is not as bad as it was right after D-Day, it is there, and sometimes overwhelming. Sometimes I want to get out of my skin! Trying to keep busy this weekend, though it's 100 degrees today and don't feel like doing anything. I just come here and post if I start missing OM or want to see if he's online. So I don't mean to babble on but apparently it's something I need to be doing right now!

-win

Sys-

I think what you found out is that your W is struggling much the same as us on here. She IS still in withdrawal and has urges, but she is also upholding NO CONTACT. THAT is the key. I am glad she has a friend that will talk her out of it and help it pass. This should tell you that she has made the choice to work on the M. She is working hard to let go of OM and give your M a chance. As far as only temporarily doing no contact, in my thinking about withdrawal and the letting go process, I cannot even imagine that I would want to revisit all of that misery -especially KNOWING that the R with OM was not destined to go anywhere. By her making the decision to have no contact, she has rectified in her mind that the R with OM is over.

I will tell you that it's awfully hard to accept no contact FOREVER in our brains. We know intellectually that it must be that way, but I honestly believe that it's just one day at a time for most of us. As more and more time goes by for me, and I see that a future with OM was really never a possibility, I see the reality of my M. Does that knowledge make me not think of him? Absolutely not. Those two points are not mutually exclusive.

But, I do know that the problem is here at home with our M. Again, the choices are to be made HERE by me and my H. I think your W knows that too.

I have to go back to some ideas Owl and I were pondering about women and EA's. I REALLY believe that women, in general, are more emotionally bound. I think we attach deeper and have a harder time detaching. I think that for me it was also a gradual pulling away from my H. I didn't just wake up one day and feel nothing for him. Just my opinion and observations - I have no facts to support it. For this reason I think it's much harder for men to be patient and give this process time. Maybe men cannot even fathom what the big deal is, for if they were in this situation maybe they would just get over it and move on?

I know you want her to fall back in love with you right now, but as I said in an earlier post the M didn't get in this shape overnight, and it won't be repaired overnight either. I think you have to accept that it will take time, and that right now in this stage of the game she is still fighting to let go of OM. She's not able to turn her thoughts to how she can love you. That doesn't mean give up. That just means allow her the space and time she needs.

Hi everyone. Hope you all had a good weekend.

Sys - how did the rest of your weekend go? After just reading what Cards wrote, I would have to agree that it is still hard for me as well to think of NC forever. I know it's what I have to do and I know I will not ever go back to the OM, but it's still hard to think of NC forever with someone that I cared about. I feel things are really going well with my M and H right now, yet still I think of the OM at times.

Also, your W was really honest with you about her urges to contact the OM. That is a good sign that she can communicate that to you and that she is working really hard on NC. I have a hard time telling my H that sometimes I just get these thoughts to contact the OM or just think of him. I NEVER would contact him, but these thoughts run through my head every once in awhile. I don't intentionally make myself think these thoughts either. They just sort of pop in my head and there must be something that triggers it...I just don't know what it is at times.

Hope everyone else is doing well - Cards, Owl, Win...hope you had a good weekend.

Thanks for that Cards -just what I needed to hear. I do know that my W is commited to working on us and I know it's been a real struggle. I also know that most of my impatience (which I don't push on her btw) stems from insecurity. I won't feel secure until I know that we are back on track. As long as she is fighting urges to contact him and not feeling love for me, I feel adrift and scared. I am comforted by her efforts though and your insights have helped me enormously -thanks for that.

I think we are both still set back a bit by the realization that we are both still having a hard time overcoming our urges (mine to spy and hers to make contact) I guess she wins in that department in that she isn't giving in to the urge. At least the MC made it clear to her: "He's going to do it again -this takes time". Still I think this was a minor blip and in the end, I still believe it did more good than harm. I wasn't having an easy time finding opportunities to talk about important stuff and this provided a catalyst. I think it gave me a chance to show my wife that although there is still a lot of hurt and sadness, that we can talk without it turning into real awfulness. Our talk on Friday probably did a bit of LBing -but generally it did OK. We seem to be back on track although she did seem a bit distant this weekend. No doubt the events of Friday probably seriously stirred the pot for both of us. We had been moving along for quite some time doing well with each other despite our inner struggles. I think we'll get back to that point again soon.

We have some good stuff coming up soon that I think will help. In particular we are going on vacation next month with my family. A week of free babysitting at the beach might do us some good. It seems that being with family instead of creating additional stress, actually gives us a chance to just be a family.And it's a week away from the internet and the abilty to even think about making contact (at the same time I won't have you guys).

Anyway, hope you all had a good weekend and thanks again for getting me through this latest crisis.

Quote by Cards:

Quote

Maybe men cannot even fathom what the big deal is, for if they were in this situation maybe they would just get over it and move on?

I think it depends on what side you are on here (BS vs. WS). My H doesn't understand why I would keep hanging onto thoughts of the OM. I should be able to just move on from this he feels, but he is trying to be patient with me if I bring something up. He can't even fathom how I would even get involved in an EA to begin with. I KNOW for a fact that the OM struggled with the NC and thoughts of me. I KNOW he just didn't 'get over it and move on', so is that unusual because he is a man? I don't think so. I think when we get involved in the EA, there is an attachment that seems so strong whether you are male or female.

Sys - It sounds like you have some positive and fun events coming up with your vacation. It will give you some needed time away from the every stresses of life and time to focus on each other.

Quote

I KNOW for a fact that the OM struggled with the NC and thoughts of me. I KNOW he just didn't 'get over it and move on',

Obviously my W's OM has the same issue -he's made at least 2 attempts now to make contact -not directly but otherwise. I saw a message he sent my wife shortly after d-day. He seems like a sensitive guy, he's lost someone important to him -he doesn't even begin to understand what he has lost. Point is, of course men feel the loss.

Of course, my sympathy for him is non-existant. In that same note he said that at first he felt bad about what they had done to me but now he didn't -that he hated me (much the way I feel about him...)What he did was inexcusable and frankly so is what he is doing now. But isn't that exactly the stuff A's are made of? If we led with our intellects, our sense of right and wrong these things would never happen right?

I just hope that he doesn't get desperate enough to escalate things. I imagine if he did, my wife would react negatively. She told me early on that if he showed up at our door that would be it -that she couldn't abide by that kind of violation.

You know, I have to wonder what is feeding his desperation. I guess part of it is not knowing. Part of it is the passage of time, the longer it goes the worse his chances I supppose (I hope). Mostly he probably just misses her and doesn't want to lose her. From what my wife has told me, he's a lonely guy -hasn't had much in the way of relationships in the past, so I can imagine he saw my W as his lucky break (he doesn't know how lucky).

Anyway, I don't care to figure out his problems too much, just hope that he goes away forever.

Sys - The longer that your W and the OM are in NC and the longer he gets no response to his "efforts", hopefully will cause the OM to go away.

I just looked at when NC started for your W and trying to figure out how I was at that stage and how the OM was. In my case, the OM and I still had some contact for several months after D-Day and we did let each other know when we were struggling. But, I KNOW the OM knew what he was doing was wrong and that his desire was to follow God and do what was right, he was just weak as I was. He rose up to the need to do what was right and kept strong at it when he decided that it was necessary for both of us.

Hopefully the OM of your W will do the same.

Sys-

You said:

Quote

As long as she is fighting urges to contact him and not feeling love for me, I feel adrift and scared.

I understand that is a scary feeling and she broke the security and trust of the M by the EA - certainly very big issues. Keep in mind, though, that she may not have been feeling a lot of love before the EA. So, in a sense, maybe that was a false feeling of security that you felt before the EA. That doesn't sound like any consolation, but for myself I actually feel closer to my H than before. This whole thing has forced us to examine the M, talk about the M, our feelings, all of that. Maybe I'm not feeling a lot of "love" per se, but I feel a greater connection and the realization that we HAVE to work on our M - ultimately a GOOD thing and maybe even a blessing that will SAVE our M in the long run.

I understand the concern about OM contacting your W. Not only do you have to trust your W, in a way you have to trust OM, too. Even MORE important that NC is upheld. If he were to continue to try to contact more steps would need to be taken - pc use, etc.

I did not mean to imply that men don't get involved and/or attached, that's certainly not true. Maybe I say that because it seems many men can't/won't extract their feelings and verbalize them. I think the emotion and attachment is there, but sometimes they're not aware of it. That would not be the case for the men posting here.

Cards-

You said in your previous post that:

Quote

I understand the concern about OM contacting your W. Not only do you have to trust your W, in a way you have to trust OM, too.

I hope that you can appreciate this, but from a BS perspective, that is just flat impossible!!! There is no way possible that any BS could consider that...especially if the OM was someone that the BS knew in any way at all.

I knew my wife's OM reasonably well. I also can admit that he did some decent things towards the end to assist in finally ending the contact and such. But...that does NOT change the fact that he also carried on the A, with the full knowledge of what he was doing, knowing who he was going to hurt, and how. I'm sorry my friend, but there's just no way that any BS could consider trusting the OM/OW to do the right thing...they blew that chance when the A occurred.

That's why it's soooo critical for the WS to take the steps to rebuild the BS's trust. Because the WS or FWS is the ONLY person who stands the chance of doing so...and it's not easy. It's WORK, and it takes time to do.

Last nite we logged into game for the first time in ages. And ran into an old friend who hadn't been on in a long time. A guy that I feel that my wife FIRST started to have an EA with...she never realized it at the time, but we've talked about it since, and she can see where it looked like it was headed down that path. We did game with him for a bit, and my wife could tell that I was feeling kind of odd about it. I KNOW that everything is fine, and she's not attracted to this guy, but it STILL raises my hackles after what we've gone through. If she hadn't rebuilt that trust with me, it would have been unbearable, instead of just a little uncomfortable.

Sys-

I know it's not easy friend. It's hard to deal with. And I highly doubt that your wife can possibly understand just how insecure and scared you're feeling right now...she's not going through it herself. I know that my wife didn't understand it. All you can do is keep working on NOW...keep helping to fill her EN's, and to help her stick to NC. As far as 'spying' on her...well, she needs to understand that you DON'T trust her at this point...that you know the struggle she's going through, and that you're scared that she's going to slip. That your scared that all the work you've done over these past months will be totally lost due to a mistake. She needs to realize that she has to EARN that trust back.

My wife took it HARD when she realized I was checking on her. Until a few weeks after the LAST contact with OM...and then she realized that I wasn't checking expecting to find anything...that I was checking to REASSURE myself.

See if that helps with the perspective a little my friend.

Quote

My wife took it HARD when she realized I was checking on her. Until a few weeks after the LAST contact with OM...and then she realized that I wasn't checking expecting to find anything...that I was checking to REASSURE myself.

That is exactly what I told my W -that I check more for reaasurance than b/c I suspect anything -at first it was different, but now, it's something I do to make myself feel better.

The one icky part about Friday's deal was that once she had time to think about it, she felt like I had trapped her by not telling her up front I had seen her logged in. I toild her that I didn't expect her to cover up. All I asked was "did you see his post" and she said "no". At that point I said, are you sure, b/c I saw that you were logged in, and then she had to fess up -definitley not our most graceful moment. I humiliated her, she humliated herself, what does it matter? We both felt awful. But I'm hoping it will demonstrate the need for truth. I mean jeez, we teach and expect as much from our 4 year old.

Realize that you're not going to agree on the 'spying' thing for a while I think friend. She feels like you 'trapped' her...but what she doesn't want to say is that she DID lie to you...and you caught her at it...and THAT has her embarassed, so she's shifting the blame to you instead of taking it on herself. She's still not willing to take responsibility for her actions...still part of the fog that she's going through.

It will probably take some time for her to get to a point where she will start to see things normally. Like you said, she's behaving in a manner that you wouldn't accept from your 4 year old. But she refuses to see that at this point, because it doesn't paint her in a very pretty light.

My wife went through some similar times. It's a defense mechanism...she'll throw the blame back on me for something. Whenever we have an issue related back to the EA or something to do with it, her first response is always "this will NEVER end!!!"....which is her trying to tell me that it's all MY fault. I don't accept that, but she still does it.

Hang in there friend. Talking with her about it may have limited success at this point, since she's still acting this way. Odds are, she's still not going to be able to admit, even to herself, when she's doing wrong.

Owl-

Quote

there's just no way that any BS could consider trusting the OM/OW to do the right thing.

So sorry, Owl, apparently bad wording on my part. I certainly didn't mean the BS would/should be able to trust the OM, the BS is barely able to trust the WS! I merely meant that it really complicates things to have both parties fighting the NC. What I should've said is that the BS can only HOPE that the OP will stay away.

I agree with you, totally, it is the WS RESPONSIBILITY to follow through with the NC. Blame should not be placed elsewhere.

Owl, I know you've told us 100 times, but how were you able to gut through the time it took for withdrawal? How long would you say it was before your W REALLY and TRULY felt endeared to you? And what exactly do you attribute that turn around to? Thank you!

Cards-

Well, my wife's EA only lasted no more than two months, and I think that was a contributing factor to the length of her withdrawl. Add to that the fact that I really am a terrific husband and all around great guy (wow, it's getting deep in here) and my willingness to see her side in things, her HARD withdrawl only lasted about a month.

Now, she still had withdrawl in wanting to see/talk with/etc... the OM in some capacity for a while...but her desire to 'be' with him ended in that timeframe.

I made it through it just because I'm too stubborn to give up. I refused to end our marriage knowing how good things could be between us. It was HARD. I lost almost 30lbs total during that timeframe...and was sleeping less than 4 hours a nite. I was taking walks up to 6 miles a day to keep from hovering over her, or sitting down in my room by myself crying. I cried myself to sleep almost every nite, but never let her know that. (she still doesn't know that) I talked with my few friends about what was going on.

I could understand that she was going through the grief of losing that relationship. But, like your husbands, I had NO IDEA of the strength of that relationship, and so the severity of her grief and withdrawl was a complete and utter shock to me. I could NOT understand how she could feel so badly over the loss of something that 'might have been'...to me, it couldn't have been real.

I still struggle with it when she says that she loved him. I don't dispute it with her, but it's very hard for me to accept that she loved someone that she never met...someone that she knew for such a short time and in such a limited way. Again, I think back to the chapter in 'The Five Love Languages' that talks about the difference between 'in love' and 'loving someone'. She loved what she PERCEIVED of him...but she can't see that, and probably never will.

At any rate, I made it through her withdrawl by putting myself in her shoes as much as I could, by trying to love her and take care of her where she'd let me, and putting my own pain and grief to one side. In short, I did the opposite of MB's plan, and made healing HER my mission. And it worked.

And my wife has NEVER been one to do something halfway. When she made the choice to let herself 'love' me again, she did it completely. She didn't let herself dwell on the OM at that point. I know she still thought of him, and she still wanted to 'keep him as a friend'...but once she made the choice to heal US, it was the end of her dreaming of being with him. She just refused to let those thoughts keep going after that.

Realize that I know that she never stopped loving me. She simply refused to let herself see that love while she was still 'blinded' by her relationship with OM. Once that relationship ended, and she finally raised her head enough to look around, I was still there, still loving her, and working on making the changes we needed in order for our marriage to survive.

Hope this maybe provides some perspective.

Quote

like your husbands, I had NO IDEA of the strength of that relationship, and so the severity of her grief and withdrawl was a complete and utter shock to me. I could NOT understand how she could feel so badly over the loss of something that 'might have been'...to me, it couldn't have been real.

I, MYSELF, had no idea the strength of the R either until it threatened to be gone. Everything you describe above was a shock to me, too. It made no logical sense. Those things are what I still struggle with. Owl & Sys, do your wives acknowledge this as well?

Quote

it's very hard for me to accept that she loved someone that she never met...someone that she knew for such a short time and in such a limited way

This is just another unexplainable piece of it, that a sensible person could become so emotionally immersed. At some point, I think all the parties involved have to somehow accept the impact that the R had, and accept that there are some parts we may not ever totally understand. Owl, I'm sure your W's love for you is much different than how she would describe the "love" for OM.

I can't say that my W has ever expressed any kind of bewilderment. I think she accepts it at face value. She accepts how she feels and felt as "it was what it was". She knows she doesn't know the guy, and has said as much -that they are both mourning the loss of the "idea of a person". That said, she believes that this guy was right for her. Our MC was very forceful about the neccessity of the non-verbal element in forming "real" relationships. How lopsided IM and phone only relationships are.

All that said, you can't deny the fact that your spouse was in love with this stranger. Reality is perception. If she says she felt in love, who am I to say she wasn't? My task is to show her what I can be to her; here and in the flesh, part of the real world with it's good and bad.

Actually, I think that she understood how strong she felt for him even before it looked like it was going to end...after all, she was all set to fly to live with him and leave me when it was all out in the open. They'd talked about it for a while...and she's commented since that 'they fought it for a long time'...not really sure what that fight looked like, but there ya go.

The only time I've ever asked her to 'compare' her love for OM to her love for me was the morning of d-day...and she told me then that she felt that she loved him, and had fallen out of love with me.

I've never asked her about how her feelings for him compare to her feelings for me since. Partially because it's irrelevent at this point, and partially because I honestly think that she's still convinced that she was in love with him, and all the answer to that question would do is to hurt me again. It IS tough too, because the main reason she was so attracted to him in the first place is because he and I had very similar personalities...and so often had similar mannerisms as well. I think she was attracted to him BECAUSE of that...because in a way he had my personality in a situation OUTSIDE of our stressful homelife (not to mention that physically he's closer to her 'ideal' than I am...aint that a pain to admit).

Right now I try to keep focused on the fact that she's in love with me NOW. And it's NOW that counts, not what she felt then. As long as we never get back to that...we'll be ok.

2BN-

I saw your last post, but then it seems to have disappeared before I could respond to it.

I hope you're doing alright.

I deleted it because I felt I was being too harsh on my H. I deserve what he speaks to me...just feel like a loser and I must be if he says so.

2BN-

Realize that it's not a matter of DESERVING that kind of comments. No one 'deserves' it.

Your husband was venting, just like you do here at times. I have to admit, I've felt the same way toward my wife in the past. Because from my perspective, it was a CHOICE to get involved in an EA with someone else. I've had opportunity and temptation to do the same thing...but chose not to do so.

Your husband undoubtedly feels the same way. And for whatever reason, watching that show triggered him to vent that. Accept his apology if you're able to, because I'm sure that he absolutely feels bad for hurting you with his words. All of us BS's feel that way sometimes, he simply chose a bad way of expressing those feelings.

Hang in there friend. Remember this...you're NOT a bad person. You've made some bad choices, but you're NOT a bad person.

I suppose he was venting. But why does it seem so simple to the BS? It's so black and white. Don't get involved in an EA or A. We WS's know that it was wrong, but yet we made the wrong choice. I wish I could go back and understand why I chose to make the choices I did those particular days that enabled these A's and for me to make these wrong choices.

I do accept his apology, and he will act like everything is OK today and move on. We should have never watched the show yesterday. I'm still sorting through all the why's but he doesn't need to at this point.

I guess it seems so simple to the BS because we've never made that mistake. Of course, we make tons of others. But I can't tell you why you chose to go ahead with a R with someone else, anymore than your H can tell you that.

I can't honestly tell you that I completely understand my wife's choice to do the same thing. I understand what she was going through at the time...but wasn't I going through the exact same thing from the other side??? It's hard for the BS to comprehend WHY the WS would choose to do what they've done...often, it's the BS who was working all that time to hold the M together. I know that I was in our case...and while I was fighting as hard as I could to figure out what the problems were in our M, and what could be done to fix them, SHE chose to emotionally invest in someone else. Not an easy thing to deal with. I can imagine(guess) that your husband may have felt that it was the same for him.

I am NOT saying he was right for blowing up on you. Not at all. I'm simply trying to help you see his viewpoint if you can.

But remember this when it's all said and done...he STILL loves you. He's STILL with you. And he's STILL trying to do the best that he can to make things work out for the both of you.

Quote

But remember this when it's all said and done...he STILL loves you. He's STILL with you. And he's STILL trying to do the best that he can to make things work out for the both of you.

This is what I need to remember. He is doing the best he can for us.

Quote

It's hard for the BS to comprehend WHY the WS would choose to do what they've done...

For us, not only this last time, but 3 times! He cannot and will never understand why? And why repeatedly?

Quote

often, it's the BS who was working all that time to hold the M together.

This is true in our case. My H had no idea what was going on (during the A's) yet he was trying to help me and figure out why I was acting like I was. He was doing everything he could possibly think of, yet I kept pushing him away.

My H hasn't blown up like this in a good while and it just brought me back to the way I felt when we were dealing with everything on D-Day. Not as bad of course, but a reminder of how it was. I'll move on past this and learn that we shouldn't be watching such shows together.

Well, he may not understand, but YOU need to. In my opinion, it's absolutely CRITICAL that YOU figure out why you've done this three times, and make the changes you need to make to ensure that it doesn't happen a fourth time.

Just hang in there...remember, things WILL get easier with time.

Hope everyone else is doing good today.

Quote

it's absolutely CRITICAL that YOU figure out why you've done this three times, and make the changes you need to make to ensure that it doesn't happen a fourth time.

I mentioned this to my H last night and mentioned that I feel I need counseling to figure this out. That's when he said it's so black and white and what's there to figure out? To him, there should be nothing to figure out except do what's right. I don't know how to respond to that. I tried to get him to understand that I need to figure it out for myself, but we didn't get beyond it being "black and white".

Maybe its hard for the BS to realize that WS fell out of love with them for whatever reason? That WS's maybe felt hurt, neglected or whatever was going on in your situation before the EA's began? I think it's much easier to have something concrete to be blamed for, like an A. It's much harder to say my H ignored me and my feelings for 5+ years than it is for him to say my W had an A. I"m not saying that A's are right or justified, but its much easier to blame someone whose had one.

I know for me when the A began, I wasn't getting any EN's from my H so it was very hard to think of turning them down from OM when he was freely giving it. When you finally start feeling special to someone and cared for, its nearly impossible to stop it. Or maybe it just doesn't seem that wrong until you are too far gone. For me, I wasn't having a PA, my H knew I was talking to OM, so what was so bad? That I liked it? I didn't realize that I was falling in love until it was too late.

It's not all black and white. And I don't think BS can really understand how it happens unless they've been a WS. Feeling loved and cared for and getting attention is something we all crave, and when someone gives it too us, and we aren't getting it in our M, its very hard to say no.

-win

Win Bin,

You said

Quote

Feeling loved and cared for and getting attention is something we all crave, and when someone gives it too us, and we aren't getting it in our M, its very hard to say no.

My answer: No it is not hard to say no. Many people do.

That it is important that 2BN figure out why she has made the choices she did. What did she tell herself to make it OK to violate her standards, her morals, her boundaries, her knowledge of what is right and wrong. What made her feel entitled to violate herself so? That is the question she needs to address or she will cheat again.

You will do the same for the same reason. You think you KNOW your reason for your decision, but you have only looked deep enough to blame your H. What you have not figured out apparently is that you not only violated your marriage vows, your violated yourself and whatever standards you set for yourself. If you respond that you did NOT violate your standards, then fine. But, you really have no business making vows of marriage with anyone if you feel not getting your needs met justifies violating your marriage vows. The vows have no meaning then, and the honest thing to have done is to have divorced your H BEFORE you went in search of the good time feelings.

2BN is right she needs to understand and she might very well require good counseling to figure that out.

God Bless you both,

JL

Hi Win - The "black and white" my H is referring to is the "choice of having an A" and not necessarily how the A happened. You either make the "right choice" or the "wrong choice". He feels us WS's should know to make the "right choice", but what he fails to understand is once you find yourself getting "hooked" into an A or EA, it's so very hard to turn to make the right choice even though you know the A is wrong. I should have been strong enough to turn away from it he feels. In reality, I should have set up boundaries for myself and my M, that I would never be put in the position of making a choice to pursue an A. This is what I have to do now to make sure it NEVER happens again.

How have you been Win? You haven't posted much these last few days.

I agree with what JL says about the need to find out WHY the WS chose to do what they did. No one does something for 'no reason'...everyone has something that motivates them to make the decisions that they do. In order to make sure that you make the RIGHT decisions in the future, you need to understand why you made the wrong decisions in the past.

Everyone is tempted to 'cross that line' at some point. I had a female friend that I was talking to during my wife's EA trying to get some kind of perspective on what was going on in my wife's mind. In retrospect, I could have put both her and I in a bad situation, as we were doing exactly the wrong thing...talking about problems in our relationships. And when I realized that what I was doing could lead to something like that...I ENDED our discussions and talks. Now...I never got 'special' feelings for her. But I recognized the RISK, and walked away before I put myself into jeopardy. And all of this was BEFORE I realized what was actually going on between my wife and OM. And THAT is what seems 'black and white' to the BS...because if we were able to avoid that kind of temptation, it's hard to understand why our spouses couldn't.

In my case, your comments about boundaries hits dead on the money, 2BN. THAT is where my wife failed. She didn't understand those boundaries, and wouldn't listen to me when I tried to explain to her why she needed to have them. And because she didn't have boundaries, it allowed things to go too far and got us into the situation we were in.

NOW she understands.

This all make sense to anyone besides me? LOL

I'm not saying that 2b doesn't need counseling to find out why she has done this repeatedly. I think she does. I think all WS need counseling to find out why the A happens.

Yes, 2b I'll say it can be hard to make the right choice. But if I hadn't made the wrong choice, my H never would have wanted to change. Unless I had decided to move out before the A because of the neglect, and that IS what I should have done.

I think the reason some people have A's is vaired and complex. And as WS we need to find out how and why they have happened, it's true.

2B I haven't been doing great the last few days. I don't really know what to post about it except that I feel miserable and I don't really know what anyone can say to make it better. It's a really hard time of year for me, too many memories. Sometimes I just want to crawl out of my skin, try to find some peace. I don't see how I'll have any for a long time. And I'm just tired. Tired of myself and my problems and my emotions. I have visited OM's web page a few times, haven't emailed him though. Still working on it. I know you all say it gets better, so I'm just waiting.

-win

Quote

But I recognized the RISK, and walked away before I put myself into jeopardy.

My H keeps far away from conversing with women about personal problems within their M. He had a secretary that was going through a D and my H would never engage in "any" conversation with her regarding her D and what was going on. He KNOWS the boundaries that have in place to prevent anything from happening. NOW he is even more cautious as a result of my more recent A's.

With this most recent OM, I did not recognize that it could be a problem. I felt he was helping me with my M and letting go of the first OM. I never saw the danger of it as we talked everyday all day long. Near the beginning, the OM warned me if we got too personal that we could get attached, but I didn't believe him. In my mind, I thought NEVER in a million years would I get attached to him! He tried to keep all the focus on "my problem" to avoid anything. But...it didn't work too well for either of us obviously.

The thing about boundaries is we all know what is right and wrong, but we have to know where those boundaries have to be in place for each of us.

Win - I understand how you feel. Withdrawal is tough! It WILL get better. It's easy to say focus on something other than the OM, but you must try as hard as that is. Try to do something fun and just for you to get your mind off the OM.

When is your H going away? Or is he not?

Yes, my H is going away for 10 days. Frankly I need some space from him anyway. He doesn't have to worry about me contacting OM because OM won't talk to me. I'm not going to contact OM because I don't want to. I want to move on so I can figure out what I want to do. I'd like to be happy again.

I have IC while he is gone so I think that will help. I have some things planned with family and friends.

Win - It's good that you have IC and things planned while your H is away. That will definately help. Hopefully your H will be communicating with you while he is gone and letting you know how is trip is going and you letting him know how you are doing. Space is good sometimes, but you both still need to communicate especially right now.

Yes, boundaries. Something I had never before thought about as I was never even close to the situation I found myself in. I was naive and also unaware of how quickly I could become involved, which is what I was alluding to yesterday. Now I will be AWARE of the fact that there must be boundaries, although I have to say I haven't fully defined them for myself. I expect an alarm to sound off in my head if/when I approach a danger zone and start to have "a feeling". If I think back, it's hard to even know at what point I crossed the emotional boundary-I wish I knew that. It was my responsibility to know myself well enough and recognize when I was vulnerable. I guess that's where us WS's fail.

Win, I feel for you. I am sorry you are so miserable right now, but IT WILL GET BETTER. Really, IT WILL. Expect it to take time, I know you know that. Keep posting even if you feel horrible and think no one cares. We do.

JL, excellent thoughts. We have hurt ourselves by compromising what we know to be wrong. For us to have done that, the issues have to be addressed or the pattern continues along with the degradation of ourselves.

2B, I'm not sure what all happened between you & H (I missed the post), but sounds like an argument that made you feel pretty awful. I hope that the two of you can really get to the bottom of the problems. I'm sure your H has a lot of inner struggles with the fact that he has had to deal with this more than once. I'm sure he wonders how you both somehow failed to fix the problems after the first time. But, what is important is that you BOTH are still there. If you are both willing to work at it, you will prevail.

Quote

I expect an alarm to sound off in my head if/when I approach a danger zone and start to have "a feeling".

Cards - I think the boundaries that have to be in place must prevent "any feeling" from ever happening. We should NOT ALLOW ourselves to engage in continued personal conversations one on one with the opposite sex. For me this means - NO EMAILING the opposite sex period! (unless they are related of course!). And NO IMing the opposite sex. I have no problem in "real life" with my boundaries. It's the online "secrets" that got me in trouble.

The issue that occurred with my H and I resulted from my H and I watching a Dr. Phil show yesterday on an A. It was on the story of Michele and Brad Hall (who do post on the Child/Pregnancy forum). It brought many triggers for my H which lead to the "black and white" conversation. I was emotional about this today, but we are doing better now and spoke on the phone today briefly.

2BN-

You're right on the money about not emailing or IMing other men at all. That's not QUITE the boundary my wife has set, but it's similar. She does occasionally still email or IM with male friends, but she's MUCH more careful about what they talk about, and she's far more aware of how things are said and could be taken. So I'm comfortable with her boundaries at this point too. And bluntly, she knows that I can and will see at least her side of any conversation on the computer, so she's comfortable with talking with these guys knowing that she's not doing so in secret.

Cards-

I think that you would want to set a boundary up that would happen BEFORE that warning bell goes off in your mind. Because it's possible that it might be 'too late'...or at least, far later than you might prefer. It helps to THINK about what the limits should be...and if you have trouble with that, then think about what limits you would expect HIM to hold to if he had a conversation with a woman.

Win-

Sorry to hear that you're still having a tough time of it. Again, part of the healing process is to simply let scabs build up over the wounds...time and distance are the only things that will help you to recover from the withdrawl. But it DOES get easier.

Precisely how my W's EA began -she found the OM to be a sympathetic ear, a shoulder to cry on over her unhappiness with me. We still haven't discussed this aspect of bounderies. I'm not sure that she feels like being lectured on how to behave in the future just yet. Do any of you think that discussion is more urgent than I do?

quote by Cardsonly

Quote

I was naive

I wanted to bring this up Cards. When my H and I first went to MC, the MC told me I was naive. I didn't believe it nor could I hear her say that at the time. (deep in that fog and withdrawal!) My H and I actually argued about the MC's words - my H saying the MC was right of course. I now admit that I was naive to know what could have happened when I communicated with these men.

Quote

Do any of you think that discussion is more urgent than I do?

I couldn't hear it at first...see my post above. But it is critical for your W to know her boundaries to prevent it from occurring again. Some type of discusstion should take place.

Personally Sys, I'd wait until you've gotten a little further down the recovery path to have that discussion. The ONLY reason that I'd consider it right now is if you have a concern that it might happen again in the near future...if she's in the habit of talking with other guys (other than OM) online, and you've got the fear that she could repeat her behavior while trying to recover from this EA.

My wife didn't like to hear it either. Partially because while she was still in the fog and withdrawl, she absolutely refused to take any responsibility for what happened. But, after we'd been in MC for a few months, she was able to talk about that more, and while she still didn't like hearing it from me, she was at least able to get it from our MC.

Think about the timing of talking to her about this. If there's not much risk of a new A/EA starting up right now, then I'd wait until she's starting to be able to talk and accept some ownership of what happened. If you've got a worry now, then I'd deal with that worry now.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured. There's really no risk I can see. Might as well wait. I do have this desire to lay it all out for her as to why this thing happened and what it really was, etc. -not a good idea at all, but there's a part of me that wants to educate her in hopes that it will bolster her resolve and give her more insiight into the situation.

LOL...I ever tell ya what I do for a living?? I'm a program manager for a major telecommunications company. And my wife repeatedly accused me of trying to 'project manage repairing our marriage"!! It was actually pretty funny. So I know what you mean about wanting to educate her...but trust me, odds are she'll just take it that you're trying to be controlling at this point. I had to wait until my wife was able to THINK about things before we could have those kinds of talks....several months after d-day for us.

Well, off topic, but thought I'd post it. I'm officially feeling old now. My oldest two graduated high school last nite.

We had a great time at the graduation ceremony. I 'triggered', but not in a real bad way by any means. Just had the simple thought that it was a heck of a lot better than either of us would have pictured this time last year. She'd planned on 'sharing' this event with her OM...it was something that they'd talked about doing together. But last nite was awesome, because there was no doubt about who she was there with, and how happy she was about it.

Just thought I'd share the good news about the graduation.

Sys-

Quote

I do have this desire to lay it all out for her as to why this thing happened and what it really was, etc. -not a good idea at all, but there's a part of me that wants to educate her in hopes that it will bolster her resolve and give her more insiight into the situation.

Hmmm......I think I would share with her how you perceive everything, but I would be offended if I felt my H were trying to "educate" me about what's going on inside me. I'm not sure any one of us has all the answers. Offering insight about what you've learned would be great, just be careful about how you present it.

Owl-

Congrats on the high school graduations. I am happy you can reflect on the better place that you are in now! What a milestone for you and your family!

Owl - Congrats on the high school graduation as well! Glad it was a great experience for you. Our oldest graduated high school last Friday night so I know how you feel! It too was a wonderful graduation and ceremony to celebrate with our family. Our daughters go to a small Christian school, so there were only 45 graduating. A nice, personal graduation ceremony. My H and I had some thoughts and triggers as a result. Mostly thinking how things "could have been" if I would have left and possibly been sitting there with the OM. My H said - hmmm...wonder what people would think if you were sitting there with that "geek"? I don't know why he refers to the OM as a "geek"...guess it's just his way of making himself feel better.

Anyways - hope everyone is having a good day so far.
Cards - how have things been with you lately? What ever happened with all of your saved IM conversations and your H knowing of them?

Grats Owl, that milestone is waaayyy down the road for us -my oldest "graduated" pre-school today.

2B -FWIW, I refer to the OM as a "geek", "looser", and a few other choice words -but I keep it to myself (I'm a self-acknowledged geek anyway, just not as geeky as him...).

Well, I've never talked bad about OM in front of my wife. I know that it would do not the slightest bit of good, and can't really see any point in it.

She made the comment that "you'll never get me to hate him", actually not that long ago. I don't know if she's really accepted his role in things...if she can REALLY admit to herself how much he 'pulled' her, and manipulated her feelings. But, it's also not something I'm going to make an issue over...since he's not in our lives any longer, and she's got no desire to go back to that relationship with him.

Now, he IS a geek...he's a computer guru for a living. But that's really got nothing to do with it.

Owl, Sys - Interesting that neither of you verbalized this to your W's. I thought it would be common. My H calls all the OM losers, geeks...etc. It sort of makes me upset because I was just in the wrong as the OM were, so what does that make me? I have verablized this to my H that I don't like when he calls them losers, etc., but it does no good. Don't know what else to say? The most recent OM is a project manager for a large IT company..so does that qualify him for a geek?

I don't think I would ever "hate" the OM either. I too have a hard time seeing the OM's role. I still have a hard time thinking of that and accepting that as well.

Well 2BN, just remember that it does work two ways on the BS's side too. There's no way I'll ever believe that the OM in my case didn't have a LARGE portion of blame in this. He KNEW she was married from the very beginning. But, he started contacting her from work within days after they first 'met' in game. She says he never pulled her to him....he did, but he was VERY subtle. Hell, it darn near worked when you stop and think about it!!!

Just as you may not be able to allow yourself to see his role, and you'll never feel like you could hate him, realize that your H will likely ALWAYS hate him. There isn't anything that you can do to convince your husband that it WASN'T this guy's fault too.

I would suggest that you ask him what he's accomplishing by bashing the OM like that in front of you. It just makes YOU feel worse, and it doesn't do anything to help the situation in any other ways.

Yeah 2B, I don't see the point in bashing the guy. In fact the less we mention him the better.

I don't think there's much I can do to seriously sway my W's perception of the guy. On and around D-Day I made it clear that I thought the guy was a major looser b/c he couldn't control his selfishness and allowed the A to begin and flourish. That where my W was confused, that he went into it eyes wide open, knowing full well that she had a husband and a family. Basically I said he was a greedy, selfish looser with no sense of propriety or honor and why should she want to continue with someone of such weak moral fiber? That was where I left it. I have no idea if any of it stuck or if she has ever thought it over, but that's one place I feel she needs to go on her own. I can't convince her of it, so I don't.

Quote

realize that your H will likely ALWAYS hate him. There isn't anything that you can do to convince your husband that it WASN'T this guy's fault too.

I do realize that my H will always hate the OM. He calls him a "wolf in sheep's clothing" because he came to "help me" and in the end he "hurt me". The OM knew full well I was married, had children, etc. He even listed all of the reasons that we should stop when we first let out our feelings for each other. Because the OM felt he was "called to help me", he really struggled with our A and what he did to me. But, his struggles didn't stop his weakness or mine.

As far as bashing the OM, it doesn't happen often, but he can only refer to him as a loser or geek when he might refer to the OM. He cannot and will not use his real name. Owl, Sys - do you use the OM's real name when you have any discussions about the OM with your W's? Our conversations about the OM have diminished in the last week or so though. Trying to stay away from talking about the OM and focusing on us.

It seems reasonable to believe the BS is going to hate the OM. Funny though, my H thinks my OM is a nice guy and was cool, other than the falling in love w/me of course. They even had a conversation saying aside from the 'situation' that they would probly be friends, and that they both like eachothers music. I thought that was interesting. My H knows that the OM wasn't totally to blame for what has happened in our marriage. And in some respects we were both using the OM in our little 'game'. OM has no idea that H knew I was calling OM and was, somewhat, ok with it.

H did have some hatred for another OM i was talking to who was trying to convince me to meet him. I was not emotionally attached to this guy thou. Maybe H directed all his anger to this other one.

I'm still hanging in there. Still sad and depressed but moving ahead, somewhat.

-win

Yeah, we use his real name.

Owl & Sys, I had another thought and wonder if either of you could relate. My H feels that the OM from the beginning was looking for a woman to prey on. That since he had an A before, that's what he was doing. I don't believe that or ever will believe it. I know that the OM was truly trying to help me and he "had" a heart to help M's since he had an A and his M survived (well at least at that point!) I have read ALL of his posts on the forum we posted on and saw his heart to help marriages. I know he tried to keep things where we would not be attracted to each other in any way. But, I was the one who pushed to know his 'real name' and to see pictures of each other (after 5 months or so). WE FAILED because we chose to continue to communicate after I let go of the first OM. We should have said good-bye at that point, but neither of us could let go of our friendship we built.

I cannot convince my H of this, and I guess I probably never will or really need to. I am in NO WAY making out the OM to be a good guy because he had a heart to help, because I KNOW we both failed big time. But, I do know that is "inside of him" and for that I cannot think of him as a loser.

Win - Sorry to hear you are still sad and depressed. Keep looking forward and you will start to feel better soon.

2BN-

Yeah, we use his real name too. No point in calling him anything else. It doesn't change what happened or who he is.

I can't imagine you being able to convince your H that your OM wasn't 'looking' at least. I feel the same way about my wife's OM, and as far as I know, he was never involved in an A before. (I do know he was divorced, but neither of us know why he was)

Given that he HAS had an A before, I honestly can't imagine that he didn't see what was coming between the two of you in PLENTY of time to do something about it. I'm sorry, but I'm inclined to believe that your H is at least partially right. It sounds like your OM went into the situation knowing what would/could happen.

My situation is a little different, but since he KNEW she was married from the very first day, but decided to start contacting her outside of the game within a few days of having met, I can't imagine he didn't have ulterior motives the entire time. My wife isn't completely sure on that point...I've seen her opinion on that waver back and forth.

My feeling is this. From what my wife has told me, OM is a lonely guy. One of those guys who is friends with lots of women but unlucky at love. I know for that she felt sorry for him. She even talked at times of trying to help him meet women. At the same time in the capacity of being my W's friend, he became her confidant. He's a sensitive guy I guess and did a good job (know what? I'm a sensitive guy too and could have done a better job had my wife been able to talk to me). So combine a lonely guy, a sad, confused but extremely charismatic woman, throw in heart-t0-heart talks, daily companionship, attempts to help her (remember , he offered to drive us to MC if her could?) and what else could have happened?

I believe that OM is probably an otherwise decent sort, but, he fails utterly at being a moral person. He could have called it off at any time and chose not to. He chose to claim my wife as his own, he chose to aid in the destruction of my marriage and my family. For that I will always loathe him.

Quote

My H feels that the OM from the beginning was looking for a woman to prey on.

I think this is how my H feels, too. He feels I was taken advantage of and OM is a user and a loser. Really not a good idea for the BS's to bash the OM, because it puts us in the position of "defending" them, which I really don't want to do. The blame should be rightly placed on both parties.

I doubt that I will ever "hate" OM either....why would we? The traits that attracted us to these OM are things that we liked/needed.

Owl & Sys, I do understand the anger and hatred towards OM, but do you REALLY feel the OM is any worse of a person than us W's? Is there an additional inherent responsibility because they are the men? Do you feel it's the lowest of the low for a man to go after another man's wife? I think women feel that way about the reverse. You tell us repeatedly that we're not bad people, but made a bad choice. Can't that be the same for OM? Maybe it simply makes more sense to direct the anger at OM so that the BS can work on forgiving the WS? Just playing devil's advocate here....

Quote

since he KNEW she was married from the very first day, but decided to start contacting her outside of the game within a few days of having met, I can't imagine he didn't have ulterior motives the entire time

You all are posting too fast!

This would seem to make the difference - if there was the intention on OM's part at the beginning. I would have to admit that this is the case in my situation, too. He knew full well that I was married, etc, when he wanted to start IM. I was extremely hesitant about that and questioned him over and over about his intentions. Initially, our conversations were completely innocent and about everyday events - no discussions ever about our M's. That's where my naivete comes into play. My OM had previous A's so I would suspect he knew exactly how the process works and how the relationships begin.

Quote

Owl & Sys, I do understand the anger and hatred towards OM, but do you REALLY feel the OM is any worse of a person than us W's? Is there an additional inherent responsibility because they are the men? Do you feel it's the lowest of the low for a man to go after another man's wife? I think women feel that way about the reverse. You tell us repeatedly that we're not bad people, but made a bad choice. Can't that be the same for OM?

In my case, yes. My wife was vulnerable and in conflict. She was taken advantage of by someone looking for love. So yes, I do think that the OM was a worse person. And yes, it is the lowest of the low to take another man's woman -this is just a guy thing, but one that we have killed over. I've been "come on to" by a couple of friend's girlfriends in the past, and despite their desireability, and the ease with which I could have staked a claim, I chose not to because it ain't right. Sometimes we need to think with that thing above our waist, what's it called again? Oh yeah, our brain -and our hearts.

Either way, I LOVE my wife and becasue of that, forgiveness is a natural thing. I don't even know the SOB, could care less about him and his problems. That and it's helpful to have someone to direct the anger at other than my wife or myself. That may be the sad heart of the matter ,but whatever gets us through the day you know?

I think my H doesn't like to use the OM's name because it makes him feel that by using his name, he is like a friend (which he is not). We actually sometimes refer to them as #1, #2 or #3! I don't like to call the OM by their names if it bothers my H, but sometimes I do.

Quote

Given that he HAS had an A before, I honestly can't imagine that he didn't see what was coming between the two of you in PLENTY of time to do something about it. I'm sorry, but I'm inclined to believe that your H is at least partially right. It sounds like your OM went into the situation knowing what would/could happen.

I agree he had PLENTY of time to do something about it. I think I mentioned the other day that right up front the OM said we should not talk personal or we could risk "liking each other". I just don't agree or will ever agree that it was his "original intention" to prey on me when he was trying to help me and I don't feel he was "looking". We had even talked about the fact that he didn't join that forum to "look for women". He posted on there for several years before he and I met. The OM and I talked much about his previous A because I had asked him many questions to help me understand my situation at the time. He was the one pursued in that A, but again he could have chosen to say no. During our A, because I had alot of knowledge about his previous A, I became jealous of his first OW and felt almost as if he had betrayed ME with her. He felt jealous of the previous OM in my life as well. We were both extremely jealous of each other's spouses as well.

Is it just because I'm the WS that I can't see it any other way?

Sys - the OM in my situation was a very sensitive person as well. He listened to me day after day for months about my struggles of the first OM. I do understand what you are saying that the OM fails at being a moral person. That's how my H sees the OM in our situation.

Cards-

As I think you may have figured out, I'm a Christian. And I have to tell you that I've REALLY struggled with forgiving the OM in our case. I have forgiven him at this point, but that does not change him into the kind of person that I want in my life, or around any of my family.

Yes, it may be that he 'just made a bad choice'. I can't really say for sure. In total honesty, I don't feel that I truly 'hate' him anymore...but I know that I don't like him, that I would never trust him with so much as the lint in my pocket. Because he not only created the situation that happened (by actively pursuing my wife knowing she was married...), but he did so CLAIMING TO BE MY FRIEND AS WELL!

At this point, he really isn't in my thoughts much anymore, except when we have discussions like this. Occasional things will bring the whole EA issue up in my mind, but I don't have thoughts of 'revenge' or intense feelings of hate like I used to. Honestly, when I think about the whole thing now, I just get a rememberance of the pain from the whole thing, the sadness that we went through it.

I can admit though that the previous OM HAD intentions of more than just friendship with me...but that A started so differently and I really should have seen that one coming. Someone just doesn't write you out of the blue after 24 years for nothing right?! He had intentions, but I WAS NAIVE to it at the time.

I guess because I have the 2 A's to compare, I see how each one started differently and that the original intent of each OM was different.

Owl,

I have a question. Since your wife's EA was a year ago and you two have pretty much recovered from the EA, does it still help you to come on the MB and help us WS? Do you think it keeps the EA more fresh in your mind? Does it help you recover from the EA? I don't know how BS's deal with this after recovery has begun. I know my H says he's not angry about my A anymore or at OM. He just wants to work on the problems in the M and on proving to me that he has changed himself.

How long did it take your wife to recommit to the M? I know her EA was a lot shorter than mine and I'm trying, but still not there yet.

-win

Win-

Good questions...something I've asked myself a few times as well.

We're really pretty much recovered. We still use MC, but more to help deal with issues than anything else. In truth, if we'd started MC BEFORE the A, it might have avoided the whole thing. So in my mind, continuing MC isn't tied to the A or to recovery itself.

My coming here now doesn't pertain as much to recovery either. I think that I am (for the most part) recovered as well. I still have the occasional bad day, we still have the occasional misunderstanding about something said related back to the EA, but overall it's not part of our lives anymore. And I wonder sometimes if coming here is UNhealthy for me...if it keeps it fresher in my mind somehow. But since I'm NOT feeling bothered by what happened anymore, I don't really think that coming here is an issue anymore.

It took my wife a bit over a month to recommit to our marriage. And that wasn't a "I know we can do it" thing...that was the "I think we can try" timeframe. But again, my wife NEVER does things halfway. When she decided to try...she put all of her effort into doing it. I can't say that she made healing ME a priority, but she did put the effort needed into working on US, and that was what made the difference. Hope that helps Win.
As I think I've mentioned in the past, coming here DOES help me in one aspect. I think that I've found a new 'spiritual gift' through what's happened. I've always had the ability to empathize with someone, to understand what they're feeling and why, to put myself in their shoes emotionally. And having gone through all of this, I feel like I can occasionally help others see things that they need to see in order to heal. I HOPE that my being here has helped some of you in some way...not because I want any glory for it, or feel like I have really done anything. But I guess I'd like to think that maybe the pain I went through can be used to help others deal with their own issues a little easier. It helped me to have someone who'd dealt with infidelity talk with me when I was really in the thick of things.

Well we all appreciate you coming here! And yes it has helped me. I'm no where near healed but it does help to have people to talk to who have been through it. It's been such a struggle for me and still is. I don't know if it has to do with the length of my EA or what. I know that because it was a year that it may take longer for me to withdrawal and be able to think clearly. And because this is a big trigger week from a year ago when my H went away and things really heated up with OM, it makes it harder. But I do feel like I'm moving forward in baby steps. And I do realize that I have to at least give H a chance to change, and if we can't work through things I need to move on. BUT OM has to be out of the picture either way. Breaks my heart to admit that, and thank god HE's the one who doesn't really want any more contact, or it would have taken me longer to get here.

Also, my H doesn't seem to want to talk about the A. I don't know if thats because he was sorta involved in it so it wasn't totally in the dark for him or what. Not that I really want to talk to him about it, I just wonder if its strange. Better for us to focus more on the M than the OM.

-win

Well Owl old buddy, whatever your reasons for being here, I for one am eternally indebted to you. You more than anyone got me through those early days and are still helping me to keep to the path. You are my example. It's odd how similar our situations were. Unlike a few of you, I'm not a partucularly religious person -spiritual perhaps, but not in any specific faith. That said, when people com into your life at a time when you really need them, it makes me wonder sometimes if there isn't something greater at work. Whatever the reason be it luck or providence, I am grateful.

Well Sys, I've got to tell you that for MANY years, I was much like you. I was spiritual, but wasn't sure what exactly I believed in. And things happened in my life that SHOWED me that there is another hand in things...I don't doubt God's existence one little bit anymore.

And I KNOW that God had a hand in healing my marriage. There were too many things that worked out EXACTLY like they needed to for us to recover for me to think that it was just chance. I'm a techie-guy...I can do probability calculations reasonably well, and I'll tell ya, the odds were definitely stacked against me. But look where I landed.

I would like to think that I'm here because it's where God wants me to be. And who knows, perhaps you'll get the chance to SEE God's hand in your situation and life as well through all of this.

Just a suggestion to you, and I sincerely hope that I don't offend you with this...but why not pray about your situation?? All I asked for on my behalf when we were going through the worst of it was that God work His will in what we were going through. I never asked Him to make her stay. All I asked was that He work the whole situation our according to His plan for us. Look at it this way...what have you got to lose? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well Owl, truth be told I have prayed a bit -always have when things looked tough. I have no qualms about it and take no offense. Hell, I've got my wife's friend (the one who has been so good to her through this) praying for me and us, why shouldn't I?

Like you, I've seen things happen here that I can't really explain. Want a weird list? A month before D-Day, I had a dream W was leaving me for OM -was this precient, a message ,or just something my sub-conscious mind perceived that I couldn't? I found out about the A because of a bizzare software glitch that logged her AIM in on another machine while I was there and could see their conversation. Her EQ guild fell apart while she was leader and subsequently impelled her to leave the guild -thus one more connection to OM was lost. Most importantly, I felt genuinely transformed after D-Day, all the anger and frustration I was feeling that made me so awful to live with melted away. I know this expereince will make me a better husband ,a better father and a better person. It has put my priorities in order. I don't know yet if I will be happier in the short term, but in many ways, this event has given me and our marriage a chance to begin again. Divine intervention? Who knows, but I do feel lucky in many ways.

Owl - Just wanted to add that I too am very appreciative of you being on this forum. You have been a tremedous help and have helped me see things when I couldn't. You definately have a gift and many of us are blessed to have you here!

Being a Christian as well, I can see God's hand in many things of how things happened with the A. I don't view anything as just coincidence or luck. God has a hand in all of it. I made so many wrong choices and I could feel God trying to call me back to Him, but I chose to turn the other direction. A few things for me....after I said good-bye to the first OM, that very weekend in church the message was on Repentance. That is not coincidence! I also feel that God prevented the OM and I from meeting by the emails being exposed to the OM's W. I truly feel the exposure of the A happened at the 'right time'. The day prior to exposure, I was sure I would fly to meet the OM, yet I knew it was wrong. Also about a month before D-Day, the OM had a very vivid dream that Satan was trying to snatch him away. He NEVER remembered any dreams, but this one was so vivid to him. At that point, we knew we had to stop, but we were still too weak. That is why I feel God had the A exposed at the right time.

There is so much more...I could write a book on it! But, those are a few points. I also see how God is repairing and healing our M and changing my heart as well as my H's heart. We have a ways to go, but my trust has to be in God.

I have a question for Owl or Sys...or anyone that wants to answer here.

I told my H last night that I still have struggles with thoughts of the OM at times. I don't have bad thoughts but just that I think of him at times and everytime I first get on the computer at work, my thoughts go there because those were my first thoughts for months and months when I was communicating with the OM. My H felt bad that I still think of the OM and possibly struggle with wanting to talk to the OM at times.

I can't really remember how this conversation started, but I told my H I was being honest. Should I NOT be honest? I don't often say these things, but sometimes it really bothers me that I still cannot "not think" of the OM and that is what I was trying to communicate to my H. I suppose I wanted my H to help me and understand, but there is no way he can understand. My H feels...why would I struggle with thoughts of someone who tried to destroy our M???

Any thoughts here?

Well, your husband doesn't want to realize just how serious the attachment you had to OM was. It's VERY VERY painful to consider how we were 'replaced' in our wive's hearts and minds. I don't think I can communicate to you just how much that hurts to think about.

But, all I could suggest you tell your H is that OM was a major part of your life during that time...and that changing thought patterns and habits takes hard work and time to accomplish...you're doing the work, but it's still going to take having him removed from your life for a length of time for those thought patterns to change. It sucks, but there's no other way around it.

What YOU can to help yourself with this is to start 'channeling' your thoughts when this happens...whenever OM comes to mind, DELIBERATLY MAKE yourself think of someone/something else. Something totally unrelated to OM and how you felt for him. And practice that everytime it happens. You'll find that it reduces how much time he's in your mind, and that will help reduce how often it happens.

Hope maybe that helps you.

Yeah, it's brutal to hear that. But I want to hear that. It was only last week that my W could tell me that it was a daily struggle for her not to contact him, that she was really working hard. If she didn't tell me, all I could do was ask and assume that when she said that she wasn't in contact, that she was telling the truth. Hearing that it's hard, hearing that she's working through it is an act of openess and honesty that I depserately need. I don't think my W quite understands why it's important to me, but it means so much, even if I don't like what she tells me.

The thing that hurts more than anything is the knowledge that she betrayed and lied to me. By being open and honest now, I can begin to feel like we are making progress. It's an act of good faith on her part to tell me these things. I know it's not easy for her to do, but as time goes on, and I respond in a positive , supportive way, it seems to get easier. We can't continue to move forward by sweeping unpleasant thoughts and feelings under the carpet.

Thanks Owl - I know it hurts my H and it is painful for him to hear these things. He had expected all thoughts/struggles to be gone. He asked me this morning to turn the situation around to think how would I feel if he was still stuggling with thoughts of an OW. It does help me put it in perspective. But that being said, I did tell my H that it will take time and that it was a daily habit to have my focus on the OM when I was going through the A. He hates the idea that he feels that he has to wait it out while I "get over" everything. I don't know how to respond to that because there is no other way of "getting over it" except through time. Things are better for the most part, but there is still that thought everyday when I first get on the computer.

I have tried to channel my thoughts else where...like going straight to read a devotional online when I first get on the computer. I know this will take time and if I think back to D-Day there has been great progress.

Sys - I guess my H is different, because even though he wants me to be honest, he didn't seem to want to hear that I still have struggles at times. I assured him that I have not struggled so much in that I have this NEED to contact the OM, but that I still have thoughts at times of the OM. I'm just not sure if it's better "for us" for me to keep it all inside and not tell my H. I want to be honest with him in the hopes that he can help me through this, but if it upsets him, I don't see how he can help me?

Well, you may need to remind your husband that being honest means BEING HONEST...it doesn't mean telling him just what he wants to hear.

There were a lot of things that my wife told me after her EA that hurt me like he!!, but one of the few things I did RIGHT was to be honest about how it made me feel, but NOT make her feel like CRAP for being honest with me about it. I let her know that I needed the truth, regardless of how it made me feel, and I wanted her to know that she COULD be honest with me, and not have to worry that I was going to make her regret her honesty.

It sounds like your H may need to work on that area a bit himself.

It's a tricky thing. For my part, I want my W to come to me for support. I realize that it is precisely that that she had turned to the OM for and I desperately want to reclaim that, no matter how icky. Sounds like your H would just as soon forgive and forget and not be reminded. I hate thinking of the OM, hate knowing that my W still thinks of him and that the pull is still strong, but if I can do anything to help her and to give her strength, I see that as being in my best interest.

Maybe your H doesn't understand that, or maybe he's just a different person than I am. It seems to me that keeping it in is ultimately not a good thing. But if it upsets him, or leads to conflict, I'd suggest finding an alternate confessor (an appropriate one)until he can help you.

It's hard to ask for support when he does make me feel bad that I shouldn't be having these thoughts/triggers/struggles at times. He doesn't like to hear it and I know it hurts him, but I don't like to hold it in either. If I'm struggling on a particular day I would like to be able to talk about it with him. I don't talk about it every day, but if one day particularly hits me hard, I would like to be able to talk about it without being made to feel bad about it. Is that an unreasonable thing to ask?

Also, maybe my situation is different in that he has heard so much with having 2 A's back to back instead of just one to deal with. I have no thoughts or triggers of the first OM and am just left to sort out my feelings of the most recent OM.

Ok I guess you guys are on the east coast because there's tons of posts before I get up!

My H is struggling with this as well. He wants me to be honest but doesn't always want to hear that I'm thinking or dwelling on OM. He gets very upset when I'm depressed and takes it personally when it is usually just me thinking about OM. I keep reminding him that its mostly OM that is making me feel sad. But I have a hard time wanting to or going in to detail about what I'm feeling or thinking. It just feels very personal to me, or maybe it's just weird to talk to your H about how much you miss OM!

2BN-

I think that the fact that you've had multiple A's is something that changes a lot of the factors in your situation too.

I really can't imagine myself in your H's position. I've had that normal fear that my wife could restart her EA with this OM, or 'fall' into another one with someone else...I think that most BS's have that. And I've got to be honest...at this point, after what I went through on this one, if it happened again I think that I would cut my losses and walk away myself. I can't imagine going through this again. So I can only guess that your H is feeling pretty shell shocked from all that you two have been through. It says a LOT about him that he's still there with you.

All I can recommend is the same thing I've suggested all this time....keep the communication open, and seriously consider finding a MC that would allow the two of you to talk in a nuetral environment. It seems to me that it would help BOTH of you to have someone help guide your discussions and keep either of you from making the other feel attacked or afraid to be honest.

Win-

My wife felt similar to you while she was still in the withdrawl...she felt like letting me help her 'get over' her OM was a betrayal to HIM.

But...once she started to let me do that, she was amazed at how much it helped her to have someone who loved her and would try to help her however they could to talk with....and that was ME!

BTW...today marks another anniversary for me...today is the one year anniversary of the day my wife decided to give 'us' a try again!

Owl - Well, my H told me today that if I can't control my struggles, he fears that I will have another A. I don't feel my struggles/thoughts with the OM at this point would lead to another A. He also said if it happens again, he will leave. He said this prior to this most recent OM, but now he says he means it. He simply could not deal with it again, and I can understand that.

I can see your point about MC too Owl. It's something to bring up again. We are leaving for a family vacation in a little less than 2 weeks and hopefully we will have some good memories to dwell on. However, he did say that I BETTER NOT RUIN the vacation with mentioning ANYTHING about the OM on our trip...no thoughts, no triggers...say nothing. I can understand that and I will respect that. I will concentrate on us and our family.

Hmmm....question on your thoughts about OM...

Are these thoughts 'loving' thoughts? Or simply thoughts about him in general?

If they're loving/missing him thoughts, then of course your H is going to be concerned. But if they're thoughts like what you'd have about a friend that you know you'll never see again, that would be 'normal' (as normal as things get in this kind of thing), and it's a matter of time and healing for those to fade.

I think he's got good reason to worry about it happening again. Not because of how you're behaving now, mind you, but given the track record to this point, of course he's going to be very gun-shy. You're going to have to work hard at SHOWING him how you've changed, and how you're going to make sure that it doesn't happen again. And it's going to take time for him to build that trust back up again...probably quite a long time when you think about it.

Again, not bashing you friend. Just trying to give you what I think his perspective might be.

Quote

they're thoughts like what you'd have about a friend that you know you'll never see again

Exactly. All of the loving/missing thoughts have faded. I'm just left with missing the friend that I KNOW I'll NEVER talk to again. My H can't understand that when I tried to explain it to him in those words. It's just hard for him to hear that I have those thoughts.

And yes maybe my H does has some reason to worry because of my track record. But...I was faithful to him for 17 years of marriage before this first OM came into my life. I believe I CAN be that faithful W again. He fully trusted me for 17 years of M in spite of my mistake prior to M.

Quote

I believe I CAN be that faithful W again. He fully trusted me for 17 years of M in spite of my mistake prior to M.

I believe that you can and will be too. It's just going to take time and effort for your H to see that too. Remember too that his ego has taken a hell of a beating from all of this, and that doesn't help him deal with any of this well either.

And also remember its not been that long since you're last d-day. Give it some time, and keep doing your best.

A one year anniversary day for me today:

TODAY IS THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE DAY RECOVERY TRULY BEGAN FOR MY WIFE AND I!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been so swamped but I have been trying to at least read the posts.

Owl, I too, have so much appreciated your insights and I sometimes can't believe your patience with us. You have stuck with us, and it’s amazing to me that you empathize with us WS’s after the hurt you endured in the same situation. It is hard for me to understand how you are so supportive of us. You do have a gift - have you ever thought of marriage counseling as a career?

2BN, you asked me a couple days ago where I am at with my H. Thank you for asking, because I have needed to stop and reassess that for myself.

Honestly, we have not focused on our M lately. With the kids' activities lately it's been 7 or 8 at night before we all get home, do dinner, homework, etc. Then we grab the last hour or 2 for ourselves. We have not had much conversation about anything (except for who is picking up which kid!). I think all of this, plus my work stress has attributed to the fact that I find myself in much the same place as you…….still having feelings of loss.

I don’t want to say that I’m thinking of OM, it’s more a feeling of loss and sadness, a craving for what was. I'm thinking of OM, but it's in the vein of remembering how I was cared about and longing for that. It's not thinking of him and wanting to call and talk and all of that, it's thinking about how he made me feel. I can’t explain it exactly, but it must be about the needs again. Even though I know my H cares, it's something differnt. It is frustrating, though, that this much time has passed and I am still feeling this way.

I KNOW I have to WORK at healing myself and my M, but I just am not having the resolve I need to have right now. Even though I feel our communication is better and we have reconnected in some new ways, I am not feeling endeared to him yet. I AM committed to the M, but I feel like I haven’t mustered up the energy to begin the work. Does that make sense? Maybe it’s because it doesn’t appear my H is really working on it either. And it’s not right I should feel it’s his responsibility to be in the driver’s seat, but I can’t help but think that if he were more persistent things would be improving faster.

As far as discussions of the EA and OM, there are none. 2BN, you said this:

Quote

he makes me feel bad that I shouldn't be having these thoughts/triggers/struggles at times. He doesn't like to hear it and I know it hurts him, but I don't like to hold it in either.

I know my H doesn’t want to hear this anymore either. He probably doesn’t think I have thoughts anymore about OM. I want to share all these feelings with him, but I know it hurts him to hear it – just like Owl & Sys don’t want to hear it. For some reason it does help, it gets it out in the open, it lets them know just where we are. How do we know when to share and when not to share? Do we wait for them to ask how we are doing?

2BN, I also want to ask you about the comment you made about the online R. You said something about not having trouble otherwise, just online. Why do you think that is for you? I know that for myself I have gone back to games online and I do really enjoy that. It must be about the interaction with other people - much like this is. Maybe that's what our needs are, only we just have to make sure we set the boundaries.

Owl, I just read your post on Snowbelle's thread - it was very helpful to me today. Thank you!

Cards-

Quick clarification...in my case at least, it's not that I don't want to hear...it's just that it's painful to hear and acknowledge. I agree with Sys...I'd rather hear and know that she's being honest and truly communicating with me and deal with the hurt that it causes than to have her hide how she feels and let our M get back to what it was.

I've never given any serious thought to becoming a counselor of any kind. It would be a MAJOR career change for me, and I'm not sure how my family would manage while I attempted to learn the things I'd need to and get myself established. I have felt like I would do well at that kind of thing, and have started praying about it to see where God leads us in the future. We'll see what happens.

I'm curious what you felt to be helpful and relevant in my post on Snowbelle's thread, btw. My thought was that it might help her (and her niece) to see what kind of things seemed to have made a difference in my situation, since it seems similar to theirs.

Owl, I think your post just made me think about the "big picture", especially when you spoke about pointing out to your W about the future weddings & graduations. It made me feel suddenly silly that I was rambling on in my post about how a virtual stranger was making me feel. I guess it just put it in perspective right at that moment!

So, do we ignore those FEELINGS because eventually they will pass as more and more time passes, OR is it necessary to work hard right NOW to fill those needs with our M & H?

My opinion?

Don't wait to fix what you know is wrong in your M. If you know/feel there is a problem, don't wait to take action to fix it. NOT taking action is what got most of us into the boat we are in today.

It sounds to me like the two of you need to make your M your #1 priority right now. I know how hard that is to do, but you run a major risk by not doing so. Have you looked for that one book I'd recommended..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" by Steve Stephens? It's got a LOT of good info and thoughts in it...give it a shot. Pick it up, and spend 15 min a nite when you and your H lay down for bed to read and talk about a chapter a nite. Trust me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

So, do we ignore those FEELINGS because eventually they will pass as more and more time passes, OR is it necessary to work hard right NOW to fill those needs with our M & H?

My point here is, are these still withdrawal feelings or the real needs that we have to meet? I don't know why I am struggling with this right now and why I can't seem to differentiate. You are right - some of these issues are exactly how we got into this mess. We had the 20 Rules book from the library but reached our limit for renewing it. I will have to check it out again. Again, I think the stress right now is really doing a number on me.

Quote

I think all of this, plus my work stress has attributed to the fact that I find myself in much the same place as you…….still having feelings of loss.

Cards - How do you define your feelings of loss? Is it the loss of being cared for? How the OM made you feel? That is sometimes what I dwell on as well. Things are going well, I believe, with my H and I, but I still feel this sense of loss with those "feelings" I got from the OM. I'll never have those same "feelings" with my H and that's hard to explain why. The OM had a different way with words than my H ever had or will. And it's that in which I long for. I do know my H loves me and is working hard on our M and we are communicating and reconnecting as well. I guess I'm at the same stage as you Cards because I do feel frustrated as well that I am still longing for that.

Quote

How do we know when to share and when not to share? Do we wait for them to ask how we are doing?

I struggle with this as well. I tend to want to say what's on my mind to my H, but I feel as if I have to hold back. I feel lately that my H doesn't want to hear so much.

Quote

2BN, I also want to ask you about the comment you made about the online R. You said something about not having trouble otherwise, just online. Why do you think that is for you?

Cards - I have only had trouble with the online R since the first OM emailed me in July 2003. In 17 years of M, I never struggled with dishonesty or having a desire to seek someone outside of M. In real life, I have my boundaries set and I don't cross them. I wasn't prepared on how to handle the email that first OM sent me. He was someone from my past as a teenager and I really was curious as to whatever happened to him. I chose to keep it a secret from my H because I KNEW if I told my H, I would not find out about this person as my H would have me not email him -probably even if I let him read the emails. I ended getting deeper and deeper into the emails and discovering his feelings for me. I was sucked in and pulled into all of it and couldn't turn myself around to do what was right. I really believe I never thought of boundaries in this situation and I was caught off-guard and thought I could handle myself and not get involved with this OM.

I really found the most recent OM to fill my needs more than the first OM. The first OM "awakened" the needs that I wasn't aware of that I really needed. The 2nd OM fulfilled them in a much greater way.

Quote

Owl, I think your post just made me think about the "big picture", especially when you spoke about pointing out to your W about the future weddings & graduations. It made me feel suddenly silly that I was rambling on in my post about how a virtual stranger was making me feel. I guess it just put it in perspective right at that moment!

Cards, I find it interesting that you are just seeing this "big picture" today. I have thought about all of this for so long and had many conversations with the 2nd OM about "the big picture". Strange how we talked about all of that but yet continued in our little fantasy.

Quote

My point here is, are these still withdrawal feelings or the real needs that we have to meet? I don't know why I am struggling with this right now and why I can't seem to differentiate.

I am still at a loss at trying to figure out these feelings as well. I long for what I felt, but yet they can't be fulfilled by my H. I also think those 'feelings' with the OM, if we would have pursued the OM, would have not stayed them same in real life. I keep thinking the emotions from an online A are just so intense that it can't compare to real life.

Anyways - I've been swamped here today and only had a few minutes to write down some of my thoughts. I'll try to write more later when I can think clearly.

Cards

Does your H see that there were problems in your M before the EA? Is he in denial about them? Maybe you need time to recover from all the emotions of withdrawal before you guys can tackle the M problems. It seems so draining to have to do both withdrawal and recovery sometimes. Good to know there's hope for withdrawal ending and the fog lifting.

I"m doing a bit better today, I think. I'm feeling more like the EA is truly over and beginning to accept it. I'm still sad about it of course, but not the overwhelming pain and desire to continue the EA. I even feel a bit of anger toward OM for letting it go on his part so easily. This is helping me get over him and begin to move on. Hopefully it will stop me from wanting to contact him again.

I still feel sad, like you were saying cards, about the loss of the A and the feeling of love I got from him. I don't have that from H and so it's hard. I mean he has been showing me tons of love and attention but I haven't been ready to receive it I guess. It just feels empty like before the EA. Maybe in time it will return.

My H is out of town now and I do feel a sense of relief that the drama will be gone for a bit. It's nice to just focus on my kids and stuff and not think about the M for a while.

OK, I just had a thought about something, and I'd like to share it with all three of you ladies. Now...I wanna preface it with this...

I could well be full of fertilizer. It wouldn't be the first time (you should ask Mrs Owl about that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

Have ya'll read the chapter in "The Five Love Languages" that talks about the difference between 'love' and 'in love"?

I ask, because after I thought a bit how each of you have described your current feelings, and how you all seem to feel that you'll 'never feel the same way about my H', this kind of came to me.

You're probably quite right. What you felt for you OM was that transitory 'in love' feeling. You felt it for your H when you first met him....years and years ago. So long ago, you've probably only got vague recollections of how strong those feelings were. But think back a minute about that, and compare those feelings to what you had with OM. I'd guess that there are a LOT of similarities. (He was 'the one'. He understood you, listened to you, etc... Any of the faults he had seemed inconsequential to you compared to all of the good things about him).

Those 'in love' feelings don't last. They're FAR different than the kind of long term, almost self-sacrificing feelings of love that you have for a person you've been with for decades. There's no new thrill of discovery with your H. There's no new thrill over whether or not HE finds you attractive, interesting, etc... You know all of his stories, his mannerisms, his background. You already know all the intimate details about him. There's not the thrill of building and creating a NEW relationship. There's not the fear and excitement of being with someone for the first time.

Again....that's NORMAL. You may see a bit of that 'spark' come back when you and your H first start to rebuild, but it will fade. It's supposed to! That 'spark' of newness, that 'in love' feeling is simply your mind and body reacting to the normal reaction of something new and exciting. It's nothing more than normal biological and emotional responses to a new stimulii.

Real love, the kind that holds a couple together AFTER something as horrific as what we've all gone through, is something totally different. It's not based on new and exciting. It's based on KNOWING someone as intimately as you can. On already knowing all those things about that person, and wanting them to be a part of your life. It takes TIME to build up and learn. AND IT FEELS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE 'IN LOVE' FEELINGS!!!

So take this one step further. Pretend for a moment that things HAD worked out with OM. Guess what...inside a year, two years, those 'in love' feelings fade. Now, in a relationship that starts normally, those feelings are gradually replaced by the 'love' feelings that most long term couples share. BUT...that doesn't happen in most relationships that start out from an A. That's because THOSE relationships have different roots than a normal one. The first thing most WS's feel when that 'in love' feeling fades is guilt...and they feel that guilt in spades!!! And they start seeing that OP in a whole new light. The finally are able to see the flaws that they've been overlooking all that time (just like you finally started to seriously see the flaws in your H after you'd been married a year or two...there's a reason why that's a crisis time in most marriages). So now, they're with someone that they isn't what they thought, and they're also now feeling guilt for what they did to the BS...and they're now realizing that they're STILL unhappy.

That's why so few marriages that start in an A last beyond 5 years.

Now...how does all that start to describe the difference in how you feel for you H, and how you felt for your OM? Can you see how it's very possible that you won't feel the same way about your H, but that you would have gotten to the same point with ANYONE??

So the trick is this...work on the M that you have now. You chose your H for a reason years ago. There's a saying..."A man marries a woman hoping she'll never change (she'll stay pretty, young, loving, sweet, etc...)...but she ALWAYS does. A woman marries a man hoping that he WILL change (mature, lose weight, stop smoking, become a better person...)...but her NEVER does!" Use the fact that your H is the same person you fell in love years ago to your advantage. Concentrate on those qualities that you loved then, and love now.

Again, I could be full of fertilizer. Just an observation from an old Owl on a Friday afternoon.

Oh Wise Owl (I'll leave out the 'old' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )- You always have the right words to help us ladies thinking in the right direction.

You are right that the "feelings" we are describing are the "in love" feelings from a new relationship and they in no way can compare to the "love" of a marriage between 2 people for many years. I have read the "Five Love Languages" and I do remember it talking about the difference between being "in love" and "love". We would have to think waaaayyyy back to remember how that "in-love" feeling felt when we first met our spouse. I'm sure there are many similarities.

Because I had talked to the 2nd OM about these feelings from the first OM, he had told me the VERY SAME THING. He told me that I can't compare the "in love" feelings to the love of a marriage of many years. And that 'in-love' feeling would fade. WHY could neither of us realize that when WE were in it together???? Why when it flipped to an A with the 2nd OM, why didn't he give me the same lines and tell me that we were experiencing "in-love" feelings and not "real love"??? No answer needed because I'm just thinking out loud (or typing out loud...LOL!) When the 2nd OM and I first fell into our "feelings" for each other and we were "trying to stop", I told him maybe we need to go back and read all the advice HE GAVE ME regarding the first OM!! He knew I was right, but still...we continued in the A.

I have thought that if I would have pursued the OM, those feelings would fade over time. But....why did it feel that these OM were meeting a need that we weren't getting from our spouses?? Did we all just crave to feel that "in-love" feeling again that we hadn't felt in so long? These are real questions here...Were these OM really meeting our needs or were we just 'overcome' by the 'in-love' feelings?

I've warned ya'll about calling me wise...again, its too bad you all don't get to talk with Mrs Owl...she could set ya straight!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And it's probably a combination of the two...in the beginning, he was meeting a need you had concerning communication. He was listening to you, and responding to you and your thoughts and situation. That is one of the main needs that many women have. Once he started to fulfill that need, you started to get a 'tingle' of the 'in love' feelings....and then the race is on! Next thing you know, you're wanting more and more of both...it's a cycle.

I'm outta here for the weekend. I sincerely hope that all of you have a wonderful weekend, and that God continues to work miracles in your lives!

Quote

He was listening to you, and responding to you and your thoughts and situation. That is one of the main needs that many women have. Once he started to fulfill that need, you started to get a 'tingle' of the 'in love' feelings....and then the race is on! Next thing you know, you're wanting more and more of both...it's a cycle.

Yes you are right here that it is a combination of the 2! I'm beginning to see that! He did fufill the needs of listening (very intently) and also words of affirmation. And the more we talked, the more we became attached and then "in love" feelings started.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend with your family, Owl...and everyone else too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, all very true thoughts. I remember with my OM thinking it was so nice to feel in love again! But I knew that it wouldn't last and that everyone of course has flaws and I knew what some of his were. I also knew in my situation at least that OM and I would never work out, that it would always be just a temporary thing. Actually I had never thought that it would last a year, I figured he'd get bored and move on after a few months!

I also knew that I won't feel that in love feeling for my H ever again, but there should be some kind of love feeling right? I mean does one just settle for a friend/roommate kind of love or should it be deeper? This is what I struggle with now. I know I have a ways to go, I just know that I don't think I could settle for that kind of love. There has to be some kind of deeper connection. There won't ever be that infatuation feeling again, I realize that. Love is always going to cool and become a more comfortable thing.

I think there's 2 issues for me at least. I miss the love and affection I was getting from OM that I wasn't getting from H, feeling love. But I also miss OM the person and friend, sort of giving love. That is where the feeling of loss comes in. Hopefully eventually H can give me those feelings of love, attention, and affection that OM was giving me and I just have to morn losing the person and friend I had in OM.

I have no doubt that H can work on meeting my EN and becoming, hopefully less selfish, self-centered, egotistical. But if that will lead to me feeling a deeper love for him, I don't know. But I won't know if I don't try.

So 2b, I think its both that in love feeling AND someone meeting our needs that we became addicted to. Our H's can begin to meet our EN and hopefully it will lead to us feeling love, but not that infatuation love from the A.

Have a great holiday everyone. I hope I can be strong this weekend w/ my H out of town! I have plans with family/friends to keep me busy!

2BN-

I describe my feelings of loss as the loss of how OM made me feel by his attention to me. I DO understand about the feeling of being "in love". Owl, the chapter in the 5 Languages book does a great job of explaining it. That's why I was frustrated today - I was wondering if what I am still feeling is the withdrawal from those "in love" feelings that need to continue to fade away. OR, are these feelings for needs that I HAVE to have met in order to avoid this situation again? I guess either way, my H & I have to at least begin to attempt to meet these needs as a way of repairing the M.

2Bn-

I understood the "big picture" a long time ago, it just struck me today because I wrote my post where I was talking about how OM made me feel. Then right after that I read Owl's post and it struck me funny. Somehow I find it odd to be able to have both of those mindsets at the same time. Even during my EA I was well aware of the big picture.

Win-

Yes, both of us were aware of problems BEFORE the EA, but neither of us pushed to work on the M. We were both being complacent and taking the M for granted. I am glad you're starting to feel some better. It does take a long time, just expect that. It will continue to get easier. I think you made a good point about being able to RECEIVE the love and attention from H. A few weeks ago I did not want to receive any of it - during the harder withdrawal period. But I do feel like now I am open to it. In time you will be open too.

I agree, we are craving both the meeting of our needs and those great, happy, euphoric feelings of being in love. We can have our needs met, but must accept that we have to withdraw from the "in love" feelings.

Well, hope everyone had a good holiday weekend. I can't say that mine was good...LOTS of things going on in Owl's Roost at the moment. I'm just hoping that we can get everything together soon. Between teenagers ready to defy anyone and everyone, my wife responding to that very very badly, and me being foolish enough to see if the meds really WERE helping (by NOT following my Dr's advice and not getting a refill)...this weekend was one of the worst ones we've had in the last year.

Making an appt with my Dr today. I can at least take care of MY part in things. I'm hoping that the early b-day present that I surprised my wife with (tickets to a two day ladies retreat with her FAVORITE Christian ladies groups this upcoming weekend) will help her out at least.

Sorry to hear your weekend was not so great Owl. Another thing we seem to have in common-lol. Mine wasn't horrible per se, but it could have been better. Our plans originally were to go out on Saturday night, and spend the rest of the weekend doing some stuff around the house and just taking it easy. Well we got a surprise visit from my father in-law instead. Neither of us is particularly fond of him because he's a very negative person and he's a lousy house guest -very high-needs (not unlike having another child for the weekend). So my wife was stressed-out over him being with us -praying he will leave on Monday (he's unemployed and has been known to camp out with us for extened periods). Meanwhile I found myself more irritated by him than normal b/c he always monoplizes my wife's attention (takes the couch with her -leaving me to sit elsewhere, gabs incessently about nothing, giving us no opportunity to talk to each other, holds her hand when we walk somewhere, etc.). So where I hoped for yet another good weekend of together time, I was sidelined while this overgrown attention hog took over my family for the weekend.

To add to it, he made numerous references to how his marriage to my W's mother was destroyed by "that evil woman". That you can't trust women (the guy is a seriously bitter misogynist), that my W's mother wrecked a great thing, yadda yadda yadda. Now I've heard all of this before, but this time around it was really hard to take. He wasn't very nice to my 5 y.o. either -jerk!

So I was largely left to my own thoughts which at this point were nothing but negative. I began to feel really lonely and that got me thinking in some ways that I didn't like one bit. Mainly I began to dwell on this sense of intense lonliness I feel. My W is still a great companion, but I miss feeling cared for and about. That is still missing. I so want to love and be loved. I began to start thinking, damn, is this worth it? Why not throw in the towel and find someone who will love me. Someone with out all this baggage. Now I know this is just wallowing. I want my wife, I love my wife and and I want my family. But man, sometimes it's so exhausting. I know that I wasn't at my best this weekend, I was irratible and grumpy (the old me began to surface I afraid). My W wasn't much better. We both understand completely that it was the stress of her father being around so there are no hard feelings, but it was still a lousy weekend and I always worry about loosing ground.

Well, now he's gone and we have our 2 week vacation coming up in a coulpe of weeks so I guess I'll just hope for the best. I don't think any damage has been done, but I do feel like we have taken a bit of a step back since that whole post from the OM, I can't help but think that it brought him back into more focus than either of us would have liked. I guess this is how it goes though. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger right?

Hi everyone - Must be something about these holiday weekends, because mine wasn't so great either.

Quote

teenagers ready to defy anyone and everyone

We dealt with alot of this as well this weekend and I think the stress of that added to the stress of our communication and relationship over the weekend.

My H seems to be holding onto some bitterness about me. He doesn't always verbalize this, but when we have these stressful days, it comes out. I don't know how to deal with it because I want forgiveness from him. If he is still having bitterness about everything I've done, has he really forgiven me?

Also, I've been reading the Five Love Languages book again. H is not. But, I have been bringing up topics of conversation to figure out his love language which we cannot determine! I really think he suppresses everything inside of him. My top 2 love languages happen to be his weakness in providing to me. I don't know how we will move forward with this?

Isn't that a great book,2BN? Lots of insight there. We struggled with identifying my love language, my H's was easy.

I am happy to report that my family & I had very pleasant weekend. We spent part of it at home, then went to my parents' lake home for the rest of it. It was good to get away (even though we worked-cleaned, yard work,etc). My H & I had a great conversation and we did work a bit on getting closer. Our 19th anniversary is coming up and he hinted that he has some things in the works for us. So, even though I've sounded impatient with him lately, he is really making an effort on our M.

Speaking of meds, Owl, another improvement for us in the last week or so has been my H and his anti-d. He has a family history of depression and he has dealt with it for years. In light of everything we've dealt with in the last few months (my EA primarily), he has taken a proactive step in working on himself. One thing he did was switch doctors in an effort to help solve some of his issues. Long story short, the new doctor has switched his anti'd and it seems to have given him a new perspective. I have noticed his outlook to be much more positive and this makes a HUGE difference for him AND all of us living with him. Living with a chronically depressed person can be very draining, and I think after a while we had accepted his demeanor to be a certain way. There have been periods where he has found very little joy in life-very difficult to live with day in and day out. I don't think either of us realized that he could be helped even more. Anyway, this could be a huge step for us in that his general outlook on life could be greatly improved.

Cards - Good to hear you and your H had a good weekend and that he has some things in the works for your 19th anniversary.

Regarding the Five Love Languages....my H and I did read the book years ago together and even had a small group in our home on the book. But still...still really can't pinpoint what his love language is? I'm really getting more out of the book this time around though after all that we have gone through over these last 2 years.

We are leaving next Wed. on a family vacation to NYC. Something to look forward to and hopefully will give us some good family time.

Good morning everyone -

Well, my H and I had a LONG talk last night. Both kids were out of the house and it gave us a chance to really go over the things that were bothering us over the weekend. We talked many details of the A, which my H was willing to talk about and even asked questions. He was open to understand me and I was open to understand how he was feeling. I believe it helped us both to understand each other and know where each other is at this stage. My H really needs to feel that trust in me again and to know that I will be there for him "no matter what". I believe he is starting to feel that trust again, but it will take time for it to be proven.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Win - how did your weekend go with your H away? I hope things are going well with you with NC.

Glad to hear things went well with you and your H, friend. Wife and I had a small talk yesterday as well. She asked to drive me to my doctor's appts, as she knew that they were going to dialate my eyes and she knows I hate to try to drive like that.

While we were out, we talked about the rough time we've been having over the last week or so. We both apologized for our parts in the stress and such, and we talked for a bit about one of the things that has bothered me lately...the fact that the OM has resumed playing EQ, and that I/we seem to bump into him a lot whenever we're in game. Now again, he doesn't know ANY of the names of the chars she plays now, and he MIGHT know a couple of mine, but only if he took the effort to find out if we'd changed names. He'd have to LOOK for that. He's not made any effort to talk to either of us, but it still just really bothers me 'seeing' him in game. And my wife let me know that if it would make me feel better, she's more than willing to transfer our chars to another server. She told me that if I had insisted that we do it back when we were first working on things (read: fog and withdrawl times) she would have taken it as a punishment. But now, she can absolutely understand why this is bothering me so badly, and she's willing to do this gladly if it will help me to feel better about things.

We're going to talk more over the next few days on this...and decide what to do. I've also decided to use a character that I plan on deleting to send him a message and find out for sure whether or not it's him or someone else that may have taken his account. But I think it's very sweet and caring for my wife to be willing to make this change in order to help me get past this stuff.

Side note: Should have new AD medicine this evening. Hoping that will help to deal with some of this as well. Again, we're not doing BAD...nothing like things were...but there is a lot of things that we're still dealing with, not even related to the EA issues.

Hope everyone is doing better today...hang in there friends!

Owl - glad to hear that you and your W are communicating well and that she is will to change servers for you.

Just a question to clarify why you feel you need to send the OM a message to find out if it is him? Are you planning on straight out asking who he is?

2BN-

Well, if it really isn't him, then I wouldn't feel the need to 'get away' to another server. It's possible that he's sold his account to someone else, and just because it's his characters, it may not actually be the OM playing them. Now...if it's one of his friends, or him...then absolutely I'd still rather just move to another server and not be around any of them.

And yeah, I plan on just sending him a message directly via the game. I'll do it from a character that I'll delete after that, so that he wouldn't be able to contact me again after we're done talking. And yes, I do think he'd respond honestly if it was him or not...I'll tell him up front that it's me asking, and why. Bluntly, I'm not going to attack him verbally...there's no point in it, and I've come a decent ways in trying to forgive him for his part in things. And I don't expect him to respond badly to me either. If he does, I simply log off and delete that character, and that's the end of it.

Now...I WILL make it clear that he's in NO WAY welcome back in our lives...mine, or my wife's. He's not wanted, by EITHER of us. And I'll make it clear that the reason I want to know if it IS him on these characters, for the express purpose of quitting/leaving the server if it is...to keep him OUT of our lives, even peripherally. But I'm reasonably convinced I can do that without being attacking or aggresive.

I know this sounds confusing, but think of it in a similar situation to yours...what if your husband had ALSO shared that forum where you met OM? And if HE was on and saw that OM was posting there as well...how would he feel?

I really just want to get him out of our lives completely...and seeing him in game when we're logged in doesn't meet that need. So I'm looking to find a way to remove him from sight. Hopefully this will work.

Sys- What are your thoughts on this? Since you're a gamer, I know you'll understand my post a little better.

I think you've got the right tack. I know I wouldn't want to make a server change unless I felt I had too (ie the OM is still active there). There are too many other friends and such that I wouldn't want to do it unless compelled. But, if I knew it was him, I 'd get the hell out of there and start playing EQ2 on Grobb ).

So I understand your need to talk to him directly to confirm the situation. Frankly, I don't know how you are keeping it together and still playing with the suspiscion that he's out there -I would be a wreck -but you're a lot further down the road.

Now I do see a bit of an aggressive trend in your plan. It does seem like this is a golden opportunity to get in your last licks and have the final word -all understandable and if your W has no problem with it I say go for it. God knows I would do it if I could.

Fortunately, my W isn't playing EQLive anymore at all (I have confirmed this). As I've said, the only thing that worries me sometimes is a lack of trust and the knowledge that you can send tells across Sony's games. But that is a different issue altogether and one that honestly doesn't worry me much anymore.

BTW, since my last post I feel things have gotten better at home -I think the whole visit really put us both out of joint, but now things are looking up. My W is talking a lot about how much she's looking forward to our vacation. 2 Months ago our official stance on the vacation was "we'll see.....".

Owl - I think I better understand what you are saying. I'm not familiar with the game so I didn't realize you can sell your character.

Just a thought here...but why not just change servers without contacting this person to see if it's the OM? Why even bother to find out? Or is it hard to change servers once you've been in this game for so long?

2BN-

Well, it will cost me about $150 per account X 2 accounts to transfer servers. Not to mention we'll be unable to actively do things together with other friends that we've made playing on the server that we've been on for the last two years.

Its a hard change...it will be expensive and a tough choice to leave behind other friends if we do so. Based on that...I don't want to spend the money and lose the friends if it IS avoidable. But as Sys noted...it's been soooo hard to log into game and see the OM on game...while I know that it really doesn't change things (in that he could find a way to contact her, or she could contact him if they REALLY chose to do so), it's like having him in front of my face all the time. And while my wife has repeatedly reassured me that she has NO desire to contact him, she's also repeatedly told me that she really was in love with him in the past...so it stands to reason (at least to me) that having him in front of her all the time would just be begging to have one or the other give in and make contact. Whereas if we're on another server, while he may still be there, he won't be 'right there in our faces'.

Sys-

I really don't want to have any confrontation or discussion with him. The ONLY reason I see to talk at all would be to verify that it's him or not, so that I could avoid moving if possible. At this point, I don't hate his guts anymore...but I really can't stand having him around as a reminder of what we've gone through (or as a possible temptation to put our marriage in jeopardy again).

So there's nothing for us to talk about...he says yeah it's me, I'll tell him thanks, wanted to make sure so that we (my wife and I) could decide on the best way to deal with the fact that he's back in game all the time now. Please keep things up the way they are...don't contact me or my wife ever again, nor will you ever hear from us again. I delete the baby character that I use to talk with him, we move to another server, and hopefully 'out of sight, out of mind' will become a way of life for us.

Glad to hear things are going better for you and your wife, friend. I know that you didn't have a lot of hope when you and I first talked way back when on the LS website...isn't nice to look back at how far things have come? I know that I had NO real expectations of improvements within the first few months in my own situation, so I was very stunned by how well we healed and dealt with things. God has His hand in there, big time!

2B
I had a good weekend. I've been doing well without H around. It's been very peaceful and relaxing. I had IC yesterday and found a lot of clarity. We talked about H and OM and it was very helpful to me. She's very non-judgemental which is what I need to figure out my feelings and our relationship. It was refreshing.

I'm going to be honest and just say what people want to hear. I have had contact with OM but it's ok. Well not to you guys, but it's ok. We talked about music and some stuff, and his girlfriend. It was good for me to do. But I probably won't be talking to him much anymore, I don't think. Maybe occasionally but its ok. I have more clarity and I know the relationship is over. I feel like I've let go which is good.

-win

Quote

I have had contact with OM but it's ok. Well not to you guys, but it's ok.

Is the continued contact 'OK' with his girlfriend? Does she know about the affair? Do her feelings about that matter to you?

just wondering...

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Win-

Not judging you here, but I AM going to intrude a little reality into your world for a moment.

It's ok for YOU to have contact with your OM. But how do you feel it's going to make Bass feel? See, that's part of the problem...you're acting like YOU are the only thing that matters right now...when it's BOTH of you that need to heal. Doing something like this felt good to you...but it's DEVASTATING to rebuilding your marriage, and it's totally heartless to continue to betray someone who loves you very much.

I'm not going to say a single thing more on the subject. I've given you every possible bit of advice I could think of to help you deal with your situation. But at the end of it all, it amounts to nothing if YOU won't do what you need to do to help yourself, and your marriage.

Call the OM all you like...just be ready to accept the responsibility and consequences of your actions. To be completely honest with you, if my wife had continued her EA, and/or had done the things that you've done in this, I feel that I probably would have cut my own losses and either left her and the kids, or booted her out with nothing and let her deal with her own choices.

At this point, I don't think I've got any advice left to give you, unless at some point you finally make a choice to do something to fix your situation.

Edited to add: Maybe you DO need a judgemental IC...someone who makes you take responsibility for your actions instead of enabling you to continue to do whatever you feel is 'ok'.

Amen Owl,

Regards,

JL

Pep,
I don't think the gf knows about me. The EA was over before he met her. We're just platonic friends or former friends.

Here's the thing. I'm not CALLING OM. I'm not going to seek out or email him. But if I see him online now and then and want to say, "hey hows life", then I will do that. If BASS wants to read my IM's he's more than welcome to do that. I have pretty much ended contact with him. I'm just saying, I ran into him and we had a brief chat. NOTHING emotional or sexual happened.

NO owl I dont need judgement from IC, I need to find out WHAT i was looking for in having the EA and if Bass can meet those needs. AND if he can change. Our problems are not about the A, that is not what has destroyed the marriage, it's merely a symptom of things that have gone wrong. And yes it was wrong and I shouldnt have let it continue when it was an EA.

I guess what I learned yesterday was that I don't know if this marriage can be rebuilt and I don't know if I want to rebuild it. And its OK for me to feel that way. If Bass loved me so much for the last 10 years, he would have listened/cared when I tried repeatedly to tell him that I wasn't happy and that I needed more of him and less of his obessive hobbies, ego and controlling behavior.

This board is only for exploring your feelings if you are sure you want to save your marriage. NOt for exploring what all your feelings are and why you are having them.

-win

....and Win,
Every contact, even though you think it's platonic, sets you back to day 1 in withdrawls. You got your fix, and now it will take many weeks/months for you to mentally break free.

Also, while you are in withdrawls, means you are experiencing romantic "love" with OM, that totally overshadows feelings for your H. As long as that biochemistry is running around in your body, you will not have feelings for your H.

So, in essence, if you are trying to determine whether you can love your H, the sure answer is an automatic No, as long as you are in contact with OM and the months thereafter.

I speak from experience. It's been five months of NC for me, and it took a lot of time for feelings for my H to return.

Your friend,
GS

PS - Have you read this article before? Thought it might be helpful to you:

[color:"blue"]There are three states of what we call romantic love in our society. They are all designed to keep the human race alive and genetically healthy on the planet. They can occur simultaneously, one can lead to another, or they can happen completely independently. With the exception of one (which I'll talk about in a sec) they can be felt for more than one person at a time.

These three states create emotional feelings that are driven by the chemicals that occur in the brain. Those chemicals make us feel something towards the person who triggered them - and those feelings are what we call love.

The first is lust - this is the drive that makes us make babies. Baby This keeps the human race going. I think we all get what this one is. Wink

The second is romantic love - the feeling that is characterized by the need to be with someone or talk to them all the time. It is an obsessive state - when we can't stop thinking about the other person. This is the state that can only be felt for one person at a time.

Romantic love lasts for about 3 years (without intervention). Its purpose is to keep the makers of the babies together during the pregnancy and the early childhood years so that they young are not eaten by marauding tigers.

The third stage is attachment. This is the deep contentment, warm, connected, feelings we have for each other. This stage lasts for 20+ years and is designed to keep parents together through the late childhood and teenage years - (when we wish they had been eaten by tigers... Laughing ) to provide for the offspring until they can take care of themselves.

What happens in an affair is that the romantic drive is triggered and the feelings are so intense that they overwhelm and outweigh the feelings of attachment. This is why people having affairs almost without fail say, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you..." They are comparing the intensity of the chemically driven obsession with the warm and loving attachment they have for their mate.

But attachment is the reason they can't simply walk away from the marriage. Attachment - as its name implies - goes very deep. Lust we can destroy - we all know that ! Romantic passion - ditto. But attachment - that's another thing entirely. Attachment is forever.

That's why old lovers pose the greatest danger to a marriage and why it is so crucial that affair partners permanently end all contact. Attachment will keep open a pathway to lust and romantic love and be a threat to the marriage.

How to get over a lover? End all contact. Let the chemicals clear out of the brain. And then replace them with chemistry triggered by someone else - hopefully a spouse.

The other thing to consider is that an affair is new and exciting. We can't fully recreate that novelty with our mate. But we can do things to trigger the same types of brain chemistry and therefore those feelings - if we're willing to do the work.

Romantic love - the obsessive-can't-think-can't-work feeling is not possible to sustain 24/7 long term. It's too metabolically expensive. We can trigger it in bursts and we can be deeply in love and fulfilled with feelings of attachment. [/color]

Gentle

Thanks for the article. I don't feel like my withdrawal feelings are back to day 1. That was completely devestating. NOw I feel sad, but ok with it. I'm moving on.

Gentlsoul,

Thank you for the article on the types of love - good therapy to reiterate and reinforce. If you are still reading, can you share with us how it feels after 5 months of NC? Is withdrawal totally over? Any thoughts at all of OM? Are you & Beavis still progressing?

Thanks!

GS-

Good article. That's the same kind of thing that I read in 'The Five Love Languages', and it helps to put things into perspective sometimes. Sadly, when someone is IN that 'romantic love' stage, they've almost always got blinders on that prevent them from hearing or seeing ANYTHING that would make them see the reality of their feelings at that time. That's why we call it 'the fog'...and even if the relationship ISN'T an affair, the people involved are still 'foggy'.

Hope things are going well for everyone. Not doing well here...constant issues and problems with our oldest son and his GF...and that's putting HUGE stress on everything else right now, to include my wife and I. Add to that the problems I'm dealing with now from dropping the AD's 'cold turkey' for the last week, and I'm having some issues with my insurance covering my prescription, we're having a really bad time right now. But, all I can do is keep doing my part, and praying about everything.

Win - I didn't get a chance to reply yesterday as I ran out of time. I do understand that you don't feel that your withdrawals are back to day 1 with this contact you had with the OM. I've been there and understand that. But, please understand where everyone is coming from. You are still hanging on to this OM even though you say it's ok to yourself. I said the same thing to myself over and over again when I justified to myself that it was OK to have "some contact" with the OM after D-Day.

Quote

I guess what I learned yesterday was that I don't know if this marriage can be rebuilt and I don't know if I want to rebuild it.

You said this yesterday, but Win, how can you know if you can rebuld your M if you are still talking to the OM? The contact with this OM, even though it seems OK, is still contact and still puts thoughts of him in your head. You need to clear yourself of this OM in order to know if your M can be rebuilt or if you want to.

Gentlsoul - I enjoyed the article as well. I'm interested in the answer to Card's question as well. You and Beavis seemed to be doing so well.

Hope everyone else is doing well today.

Well, I've got things setup for my wife to help her deal with all of the stress that we're dealing with right now. I had bought her tickets to a ladies retreat that will happen this weekend a while ago...I've made arrangements to make sure that she has directions, and is all set to go as soon as I get home from work tomorrow. The retreat is actually being held locally, so she's not going to spend the night there in a motel, but will come home each nite after the fun.

And next week will be something new for us as well. For the first time in almost 18 years, she's going to take a week's vacation without the family...she's going to visit her sister back 'home' where she grew up. I have to admit, that after what we went through last year, and the stress f the last few weeks, I'm not looking forward to her being gone myself. I AM worried that she's going to get there and not want to come back. The last time she was getting ready to fly by herself for the first time ever was when she was getting ready to leave for OM. Can't say that putting her on that plane next week will be fun for me...but I DO hope that it helps her get her feet back underneath her, and it helps her to appreciate all that I do for her as well.

Sorry for the vent all. Just wanted to speak my mind someplace.

Hey Owl, sounds like you've got a pile of stuff going on right now, can't say I envy you. At this point the idea of my W taking off for even an overnighter would make me a wreck. I know you're further along, but I completely understand the feeling you must be experiencing. All I can say is that once she's back, I bet things are even better. For one, maybe absense does make the heart grow fonder and for another, this is a great chance to see that everything really is OK. Still, it's going to be rough I'm sure. We're here for you though bud.

I appreciate it Sys. I have to say that part of what makes me feel odd about this too is that her sister lives on the 'same side' of the US as OM. It would put her a lot closer to where he lives. Now, I don't truly believe that she's going to see him, or anything like that. There has been NO contact in nearly a year now. And when we went online to buy her plane tickets, she intentionally took the ones that didn't have a layover in "his" city/state...she knew that it would not be cool for me.

I'm not 'happy' with her going, but at the same time I DO trust her and feel she should know that. So, we'll see how her visit goes, both for her and for me.

Owl - Your W should enjoy the ladies conference. I went to one back in the fall and wish my mind was clear of the OM at the time, but it was still an awesome time.

I can certainly understand how you may feel about you W leaving. I think at this point, my H would be ok with me going away. I had talked about flying to visit a friend out of state in the fall and he seems to have no problem with it.

Back in December when I was "thinking" of flying to see the OM, I had a "made up plan" to visit my brother who lives in the same area. My H at the time seemed ok with my "visit to my brother". But...I did found out later he was nervous because the 1st OM lives not too far of a driving distance from the 2nd OM. I know "my plan" would have flopped in my face and have no clue why I thought I could get away with it? Whenever I shall fly again I will avoid layovers in either of their cities to make my H comfortable.

Owl, why are you worried that she may not want to come back? You both have recovered so well and you do have complete trust in her? I'm just wondering why so nervous?

2B-
I don't know how to explain it, but I finally feel like I'm letting OM go. He made it very clear he doesn't want the A back. I've been thinking of him less and less. I have stopped going to his webpage everyday, so thats a start. I don't talk to him everyday, I was just saying that I had talked to him once this week and once last week. All we talked about was music. I don't want to talk to him everyday because it does me no good. You are right, I want to move on, I need to. And I will tell my H about the contact when he gets home.

Win - if you want to move on from the OM, then you need to do just that. Stop talking to him and move on. There is no reason to talk to him, Win, even if it is just about music. To me that just seems like an excuse...and I've had plenty of excuses myself. Honestly, sometimes I still have an urge to contact the OM, but I won't because it would dishonor my H and hurt him and our M.

Have you talked to your H at all since he's been away?

Yes, 2b you are right. There is no reason to talk to him except for his friendship. I guess I'm having a hard time letting go of that. We just have things in common with the music and stuff. I enjoyed talking to him and getting new music and stuff from him and I guess I just can't imagine not ever talking to him again. If I had known having the A would have risked ending the friendship, I wouldnt have wanted it to happen. I don't know. I'm just very confused and don't want to deal with any of this anymore.

Yes H has been calling me everyday. First time hes ever done that when hes been gone. Usually he'd call 1 or 2 times in 10 days, very sad.

-win

Win - I'm glad to hear that your H has been calling you everyday. It may be a first time Win, but it shows he is changing for YOU!

Quote

There is no reason to talk to him except for his friendship.

Win, friendship with the OM is not possible. I know it hurts to think of never talking to him again, but remember take one day at a time. You were doing so well with NC just days ago. When does your H get back from his trip?

HE gets back on sunday, I'm not really looking forward to it however. It's just been nice to not have him around. I know that sounds bad, but its true.

I was never really doing that well with NC. It just wasnt that often, every week or 2 and usually just chat for a few minutes or so. I know you're right. I know it.

Win, I'm sorry you feel that way about your H returning. But, I feel you like him being gone because you don't want to face dealing with what you know you have to deal with to repair your M. I do understand needing and wanting space at times, but things HAVE to be dealt with in order to progress and get better. I know you know that.

As far as NC, none of us here can make you do it. YOU are the only one that can. We are here to support you and help you through it, but only YOU can make the choice to stick with it. I KNOW you know this as well, Win. Just know we are here for you and do care about you.

Thanks 2b for your support. I know I have to try at least. I don't know if it can be repaired or if I want it to be. H needs more IC and needs to change a lot of things because I deserve to be with someone who knows how to love me and respects me. He thinks in 2 mo. he has covered all the issues and I should be back in love. You cant change 38 yrs of behavior in a month. He doesnt get it and it makes me skeptical. I haven't been happy for many years and I don't know if I have the strength or desire to do it anymore.

Hi everyone -

Even though I've not been posting much due to my extreme workload in the last few weeks, I continue to read every day. My thoughts are with all of you and I want to lend the support that you have all given to me! I miss that!

Win-

Keep going with the NC. We know that it's hard to imagine not having contact ever - I still struggle with that even after all these weeks of NC. It's a loss, no getting around that. Occasionally I even think about how easy it would be to call, but as I run the conversation through my head I realize how ridiculous it is. The point is you will have those thoughts for a while yet (maybe a LONG while), but SOON you will stop yourself and redirect what you're thinking about. It may not be that what stops you from contacting OM is thinking about your H. You may have to find other thought processes that make you stop - ie "we'll never be together", "he doesn't want to hear from me anyway", etc. EVENTUALLY, after the fog and withdrawal, the wrong about it will prevail and that will stop you. But right now, make a mental note of what you have to tell yourself to stop yourself so that you can draw on it for the next time. Believe me, I have had to do that.

Owl, you do sound like you've got too much going on. You are doing a dynamite job taking care of your W, but please don't neglect taking care of yourself, too. Those kids and your W NEEDS you, so make sure you or someone is helping you with your new meds and letting you talk when you need it. Maybe you are too much of a giver, OWL? Otherwise, we are all here for you, too! You and 2BN are REALLY starting to scare me with this teenager thing!

2BN (and everyone else who's listening)-

I wasn't really nervous about any of this a month ago when we bought the tickets...both her flight tickets and the tickets to the conference.

But the last few weeks have actually been a major stress time for us. She's commented repeatedly how the whole house has felt like it did back when we 'were in trouble'. She's made comments about wishing she could 'run away' again...which is the same thing she said during her A. (Her 'theme song' with OM was the song "Runaway" by The Corrs).

Even today...I worked from a building closer to home, and was able to go home for lunch, which I am rarely able to do. But everything got stressed all out of proportion all over again. Trying to lighten things up, I'd made the joke that maybe we should sell the kids and use the money for a cruise in the Bahamas...and she 'joked' back saying she'd go alone! And when I didn't laugh about that, she got angry that I couldn't take it as a joke! Sorry, but given all that's happened lately, it didn't come across as one, and I struggle with believing that she truly meant it as one.

Again, sorry for the vent. It's simply that things are really to a boiling point right now with EVERYONE in our family, and I'm worried that SOMETHING is going to break. And I haven't been able to do much of anything to reduce the situation any.

Owl -

STRESS and MAJOR STRESS! These things really do a number on us. I know for myself right now I am in survival mode. It sounds like you AND your wife are both stressing big time. Try to look at it and know it's temporary. Your W is stressed but you have planned a getaway for her. She WILL NOT act on what your stressed out mind is imagining. You KNOW that and she KNOWS that. Don't misinterpret and read into things that she is saying when everyone is at the boiling point. We ALL feel like running away alone at times. I know that I have certainly voiced that to my whole family many times!!! She will go away, regroup, and feel much better when she gets back. And YOU, while she is gone, will have a chance to pull yourself together too. Try to relax and do something for YOU this weekend. You sound like you are both just at the height of it right now. In 24 or 36 hours you will both be feeling tons better, and by the end of the weekend you can both come together and reconnect.

LOL...Cards, the nice thing is that you're giving me the exact same advice I've tried giving my wife and kids. That this stress IS temporary.

I'm trying to relax and calm down, but just not having much success at this point. I do know that she's going to come home after her trip, and I do know that she's got nothing planned but some getaway time with her sister. The good thing is that her sister was actually a very good help for us in dealing with her EA...made it very clear to Nancy that she was making a HUGE mistake in throwing away what we'd worked on for so long.

I know we'll make it through all of this...I just hope that it starts to subside soon.

I have no idea on what to do for myself this weekend. It's been so long since I've even really THOUGHT about doing something just for me that I'm not sure where to start. Oh well...I'll think of something. Have a good evening all.

cards, You're right, you're right! The truth is its been such a struggle to give him up, I'm a mess. I don't want to give up the relationship because I'm afraid to face what lies in my M. I need to face the truth. It's so hard to give up the EN's that I haven't been getting for so long. I learned in IC that the OM was meeting EN's that I didn't even realize I had or that I knew a man could actually fill. I craved something I didnt know I needed and when I got it it's so hard to let go. I know H won't be able to meet it, at least for a while. Maybe he can learn to, but he needs to learn how to let me in to his life. And how to have emotional intimacy w/someone, whcih is what I got from OM.

I need help, please, please help me to be strong.

Thanks everyone

-win

Owl-

Be careful here.....

Quote

It's been so long since I've even really THOUGHT about doing something just for me that I'm not sure where to start

I think many of us in this stage of our lives with kids, spouses, and all the rest, can fully identify with your statement. BUT, probably some of us here neglected ourselves too long and found ourselves here on this board (if you know what I mean!). Not that you would find yourself in THIS situation, Owl, but you may find yourself realizing that your needs have not been being met and find some other inappropriate way to fulfill yourself. How's that for turning the tables???? All meant only to give you some food for thought, OWL.

Stress! We all go through periods of stress and somehow we manage to make it through...till the next time...LOL! Seems like a never ending cycle! I think most people feel like running away when things get really stressed. I've said it myself many times. Yes, in regards to the OM, but also in other times as well.

Owl, I'm sure this weekend retreat for your W will do her alot of good and she will come back refreshed. As Cards said, take some time for yourself this weekend. Maybe do something special with the kids (if they don't add more stress!). Or how about planning something special for your W for when she returns?? Would give you something to look forward to!

Win -

Quote

I don't want to give up the relationship because I'm afraid to face what lies in my M. I need to face the truth.

Win - You already stated before that there is nothing left with the OM and he has moved on. There is NOTHING left to hang on to! All you have are the memories that you are hanging on to and those memories are the memories of the EN's that you had met. Yes, your H CAN learn to meet them, but you have to give him the chance. M is hard work and it won't come easy. There are many things I learned about my A and EN's that I didn't know I needed as well. But I can't hang onto the thoughts of the OM and how he met my needs. We need to look to the future with our M's and reality. You need to give your H a chance to fill your needs. Right now, all you can see are his past failures, but you need to look beyond that and try to discover what the 2 of you have and can be.

Win-

Quote

I don't want to give up the relationship because I'm afraid to face what lies in my M. I need to face the truth.

Try to think of these 2 as independent. Your R with OM is separate from your M. You have to give up the R with OM because it only exists now as memories, just as 2BN said. OM has moved on. Deal with that as a separate issue, recognize the withdrawal and loss that you will have to deal with. THEN, look at the M. You did know the truth about your M even before the EA, which contributed to why the EA began.

Quote

It's so hard to give up the EN's that I haven't been getting for so long. I learned in IC that the OM was meeting EN's that I didn't even realize I had or that I knew a man could actually fill. I craved something I didnt know I needed and when I got it it's so hard to let go.

I TOTALLY understand this statement, and so does 2BN, and many, many others. ALL of our OM met these unknown needs for us. I am still trying to figure out exactly what those needs were for me. I WANT to know so that I can find where/who can fill them. Maybe some of the needs can be met by H, maybe some by friends, maybe some by an activity, I'm not sure yet. But we need to fill them not with EA's and PA's.

I know you don't WANT to let the R go, but in time the cravings will fade. And you probably don't even WANT the cravings to fade because you know how good it felt. But it will be so much better when you aren't feeling such misery and conflict. You will still remember how satisfying those feelings were and you won't ever forget OM, but you will "see" with unfoggy vision that you can strive to fill those needs elsewhere. You will be able to foresee a time when someone or something else can step into those shoes. You will be able to decide rationally if that will be your H or not. You will still feel the loss of those needs being met but you will work to get them met in a healthy way.

Quote

And how to have emotional intimacy w/someone, whcih is what I got from OM.

Yes, this was much of it for me, too, with OM. My H has been emotionally distant, too, but he NOW knows that I so need this. Did our H's fill this need for us ever? They must have at some point. In some ways I view it as though we are starting over with our M. There is a lot of marital history that gives us a great base to start with, and then build from there however we want it to be.

Good morning everyone -
I have much going on soon. We are having our daughter's graduation party on Sunday and then our family vacation next Wed.! Seems like time is flying by!

I am really looking forward to our time away as a family. It will be nice to be away from a computer for awhile as I haven't been away from a computer since last summer on our last family vacation! Looking forward to making some good memories and the timing is just right. 5 months or so ago I wouldn't have wanted to go but there is much to look forward to now.

Hope everyone is doing well this morning!

Cards and 2BN-

Thanks for the advice and well wishes...it helps. I WILL give more thought to doing things for myself...it's something that would do both myself and my marriage a lot of good I think.

Well, did one thing to help sort stuff out in reference to the gaming issue. I sent an email to the OM from a character on a different server...one that will be deleted once this email interchange is done. The email was very to the point, and in no way could he have taken it as an attack or offensive. Simply asked him to respond to the email and let me know if it was really him or not, and that was pretty much it. Let him know that there would be NO further contact at all from me or my family to him, after this one time exchange. I did let him know that the reason I was asking was so that I could decide if I would continue to play or not...so we'll see what we get.

I THINK that the wife and I have MC this afternoon...if so, I think it's going to a the first rough one we've had in while. Simply due to the stress we've all been going through.

I hope that all of you have a great day!

Owl -
I hope the email exchange turns out OK. It sounds like you were right to the point of things and no offense should be taken. I was thinking of your situation in relation to the forum situation of the OM. It would be tough if my H and I were posting on there and saw the OM's s/n constantly even if it really wasn't him. Just seeing the name would be a constant reminder.

MC for you and your W today should be a good thing (even it rough) due to the stress you both have been in. Hopefully you both will get some good direction.

Aye, that's my hope as well. And our MC is good at pointing out the things that we do RIGHT too... a lot of times we get so wrapped up in what went wrong, we forget to watch what went right!

I won't lie...I DO have some small worry that the OM might try to use this as a way to weasel back into contact with my W...but at this point, I don't think that he'd be very successful in doing so...he's more likely to end up talking with my 19 year old son if he tries sending messages to her...and THAT would be something funny to watch. My oldest boy would VERY likely give him what for...LOL

Anyway...I hope your vacation is wonderful and blessed!

Owl - I can't imagine that the OM would really try to start things back up after a year of NC....especially with your email being very direct and to the point as well. I can understand your worry there though, but you seem to have things covered well to where he can't communicate with your W.

We don't leave for our vacation until next Wed....thank you for the well wishes there.

2BN-

The truth is, if he REALLY decided to contact her, he would have already found a way. He could have tried her old email accounts, he knew her yahoo IM that she still uses...so he could have done so, but hasn't. I just don't want to stir all that back up again either. Now...what would be ideal to hear would be something like:

"Well, no worries here. Met and married a wonderful person (dog, cat, yeti...I don't care), and am very happy with how my life is going. But, since you're still in game, I'll pack up and go back to playing Lineage II (or Super Mario Bros...again, I don't care...LOL). Best wishes, and may none of us ever meet again...ever."

THAT would be what I'd really want to hear...that he would have filled whatever hole he had in his life that he wanted to fill by taking my wife. Lessen my worries, and it would be the best solution for all concerned. Who knows, that would be good. The second best solution would be:

"Sorry, this isn't [OM]. This is XYZ, his friend. He was run over by a beer truck last month and left his account to me in his will."

OK...it was my lame attempt at humor on a Friday morning. Hope it made someone chuckle.

Owl- Funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...It would be nice to imagine such a response I'm sure from your end of things.

True that the OM could have contacted your W in a number of ways. Just like I have a number of ways to contact the OM and he as well for me - but the point is we aren't and either has this OM. I will be honest in that it might stir up a thought or 2 in his head of wondering how your W may be doing, but I honestly don't think he would contact her if he hasn't in a year....and hopefully you will get a response of scenerio #1 or #2!!

Cards and 2b

Thanks for your encouragement! I know u are both right. I am finally ready to let go of OM and see where it leads me. I think it was actually good that my H has been out of town so that I can just focus on me and my conflict this week w/out thinking so much about H and the M. Maybe not having the pressure of him around helped me to see that I need to DO something. I still feel very sad about the OM but you're right, there's nothing to hold on to and I can't live in limbo anymore. I don't know why this has taken me so long to realize. It has been a growth experience for me I guess! I am still having moments of great sadness but it's not as bad as it was a few months ago.

And you're right, I won't know if my M can work if I don't give it a try. Then if things don't work at least i know I tried everything I could. I guess its hard to trust my H again. He's in such a rush and I really need to go slow with this, like a new relationship.

As far as my EN, I did discuss this in IC and its something I've been trying to figure out as well. What made OM so attractive to me, other than it being a new relationship with a different man. It's hard to figure out but I think I'm figuring it out.

thanks guys!

-win

Quote

I am finally ready to let go of OM and see where it leads me.

Win - I quoted you above because you have said this many times over and over. What does this mean to you when you say this? Be honest...I'm listening.

2b,

I dont know, I guess I realized finally that there was no point. I'm just tired of hanging on for no reason I guess. He's moved on and he has said this again recently so I'm just torturing myself by hanging on. I don't know why I'm just realizing this. Yes, admittedly IF he hadn't moved on, I'm not sure I would have been able to give him up. But I guess I've eventually gotten to the point where I'm not really getting what I need from the relationship anyway, so why continue to pine over it? I feel sadness for the loss but I'm tired of the withdrawal, I want to feel happy again.

-win

2BN-Congrats on the graduation in your family AND for a well deserved vacation. I hope all goes well for you. Hopefully getting away from the pc will help you, too. I did miss the pc and this site while I was gone, but I think that was partly because of the nature of our trip. Anyway, have a wonderful time.

Owl-I understand your concerns about OM, but I agree with 2BN - it seems doubtful that he would want to contact your W after this amount of time. I guess you never know, though, and if you can ease your mind in any way, then it was the right thing to do. I do hope that you get a response, otherwise you will still be wondering.

My H is taking me out tonight for our anniversary. I don't know what we're doing, he is great at coming up with things and surprising me. Hhmmm.....maybe this is the "language of love" he would like to receive love in. Anyway, he has been very supportive for me in the recent weeks with my work pressures - he has done much of the running for the kids and not pressured me in other areas of our lives. He even has arranged an appt with a travel agent to plan something for our 20th next year. For him to take the initiative on something like that is a BIG deal. I am glad that I am in a place where I can recognize his efforts.

Win, I am mostly through withdrawal, and I can see what I tried to tell you yesterday. I do not feel head over heels in love with my H, because I didn't even feel that prior to the EA. BUT, I do see much improvement in the way we are treating each other. Just the fact that there is now an awareness that we can't take M for granted has somehow put us closer on the same page. It will be small steps for a time, but at least they are steps going forward. You will gradually get to this place too.

Quote

IF he hadn't moved on, I'm not sure I would have been able to give him up.

For those of us who hadn't made the decision to end our EA's, it is especially hard. We had not gotten to the point of having to make a choice or realizing the wrongness of what we were doing. We have to look at it as a blessing, though, that for whatever reason it was ended for us. Eventually, something would have had to give - either it continues and escalates and our families are destroyed, OR it ends. Either way, MUCH more hurt and pain the longer it would continue. Not much consolation, I'm afraid, but the facts are that it was hurtful to ourselves and other people no matter what.

Quote

I feel sadness for the loss but I'm tired of the withdrawal, I want to feel happy again.

I know the feeling of "being tired of the withdrawal". I felt that way, too. I just wanted to feel NORMAL! NO CONTACT and TIME, Win. Stick with it!

Cards - Enjoy your anniversary with your H! It's wonderful that he has taken the initiative to plan something special and is even working on your 20th for next year! Good progress there! Our 20th is next year as well and I'm really hoping my H does start to plan as well. He knows I want him to...so I'll wait and see what happens.

Win - I do understand the sadness you feel. Admittedly, I even cried the other day thinking about the OM. Not that I will contact him, but there was a sadness in me about the loss of his friendship. This hasn't happened often lately, but it still does from time to time. Time and NC is what is needed Win. If you really hold to NC now, you are at the beginning and you will feel the sadness. But HOLD on to NC and let time help you.

Take care everyone and have a great weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks cards, The funny thing is even DURING the A I knew that it was going to have to end at some point. I knew he'd probly find a gf and dump me, and that I should break it off, but I guess because I was so addicted to getting my EN's met I just couldnt let go.

It's just hard to give up those needs that I know my H has never been able to fill. I learned in IC that I probably didn't even know they were needs that I knew I had and I know I didn't know how to explain to H that I felt something was missing. I didn't know what it was so I couldnt tell him what to do. I'll just have to do without them for a while and see what happens.

Plus H and I have so many problems to deal with that it was easier to hold on to the A than face all these issues. And I guess I'm afraid of what's going to happen next. More afraid that I will give up the needs that I have and not be happy. I have to stand up and make sure I get what I need from H and if he can't change I have to accept it and move on.

This is all easier to say than to actually do!!

cards and 2b I've seen how you have struggled and it does give me hope that I can move on from this. I've been just as torn up as you guys were and if there's a light at the end of the tunnel I'm ready to see it!

-win

Hope everyone had a great weekend!

My wife's conference was AWESOME for her. She had a great time both days...normally she will take notes during something like this, but didn't this time. She felt bad that she hadn't, but I just told her that maybe this time she was supposed to go so that SHE would be fed, not so that she'd have to use it to help everyone else. She did come back with some great music and a few nice things that she's really happy with.

No response at all on the email to OM I sent 'in game'. I KNOW that he'd logged the char in that I sent the email to, so I'm sure he's seen it. Oh well, either I'll hear something or I won't.

Well, hope ya'll had a good weekend.

Hi everyone.

Glad to hear things went well for you this weekend Owl -you sound a lot better than you did last week. I might not be surpised if OM blows you off, for a multitude of reasons. I'm not sure that my OM would talk to me either when I think about it -what the hell does he care about me?

My weekend although trying due to some crabby kids and lack of sleep (just late to bed early to rise, nothing traumatic), went really well. Although there hasn't been any defining watershed moment, my W and I seem to have made some kind of serious progress. She is now smiling a lot more (at me), she is initiating physical contact, seems pretty relaxed and shows a lot more concern for me than she has in a long time. I can't define it, but I feel that we are really reconnecting. I've also come to the realization that I don't feel like either of us is on some kind of a timeline at this point. Until recently I was really concerned that one or both of us had some undefined limit on when our relationship had to be "fixed". Now I realize that we are both in it for the duration. Again, I'm not sure where that comes from, but it is clear to me that my W has decided that barring extraordinary circumstance, "we" are "our" future.

The only thing that is still nagging at me is that there are detail of the EA that I feel I need to come to grips with that I don't have information on. I need to know some things, but with everything going so well at the moment, I really don't feel like picking open these wounds now. I'll be sure to bring it up at our MC session this week.

Hope everyone is well.

Sys-

MC would probably be the best place to ask those questions, for two reasons. She may feel a little more comfortable having the MC there (so that you don't 'blow up on her'), and she won't be able to lie as easily to two people. Not to mention that he might be able to help her understand why you need the info.

Not sure how much better I'm feeling at the moment myself, but I AM finally back on some AD's, after about two weeks of being cold turkey off of them.

I'm VERY glad to hear that things are going well for you my friend. It sounds to me like you two are doing great. Think about it...you're doing TONS better than you were a month or two ago.

Hi everyone - We had a great weekend and our daughter's graduation party went well with no rain! It had been raining so much lately, but we were spared for the party!

Things seem to be still going well with my H and I, and had a pretty good weekend overall. We are both getting focused on our vacation coming up in 2 days and looking forward to it.

Owl - So glad to hear that your W had an awesome experience at the conference. I didn't take notes either when I went to that conference last fall, but I still came away with so much that I learned. I'm sure your W did as well. Hope your weekend alone went well for you.

Regarding not hearing back from the email...what do you plan to do if you don't ever get a response? Will you just assume it's not him and stay on that server? I had wondered this last week and sometimes I think it's harder to NOT get a response!

Sys - Glad to hear that you and your W are really doing well and really reconnecting. I agree with Owl regarding bringing up the issue that you are concerned about in MC.

I'm glad everyone is doing well! We had a great anniversary night on Friday - my H made me feel very special. I am trying to learn and appreciate that he is showing me love by planning me surprises and buying me gifts. It did make me feel loved that he arranged dinner for us and 2 other couples, bought me 2 dozen roses, picked up travel brochures for a future trip, and bought me a ruby necklace! The rest of our weekend was pleasant as well.

Sys-

Quote

I was really concerned that one or both of us had some undefined limit on when our relationship had to be "fixed". Now I realize that we are both in it for the duration

I think both my H and I came to realize this as well. Initially I know I felt that we needed to do something quick in order to preserve our M. It was almost like I didn't trust myself - especially during the harder times of withdrawal. I needed and wanted my H to fill those needs right away because I felt so "unstable" in my feelings. Now we've relaxed a bit, and we both are feeling comfortable and secure again. It sounds like you are feeling that security, too, Sys.

My only concern with this "relaxed" attitude is that we get complacent again and forget what we have been through. I really don't see that happening, for I can't imagine either of us really forgetting the experience. We have both learned a lot, and I am still searching for some answers about myself.

Owl, I hope you get some resolution with the email situation and OM. Maybe you should prepare yourself in the event you get no response. Is there a next move.............or let it go?

2B & Win----how are you doing?

Quote

My only concern with this "relaxed" attitude is that we get complacent again and forget what we have been through.

I know exactly what you mean -my concern too. Among other things I don't want for us to feel like we're fixed and don't have any work left to do just because things are feeling OK. Don't think we'll ever forget though.

Owl-you know, if he isn't replying, he probably isn't any harm anyway -sounds like he's not interested in contact either. My thought though is this -if he didn't reply, it's most likely him. Someone else would most likely give you a simple, "sorry, I'm not him" message without a thought. Not hearing back implies to me that it's him and he's avoiding you.

Cards - Wow! It certainly sounds like your H did well with your anniversary!

I have to be honest that when I hear things like what your H did (and other H's for their W's), I get jealous because that's what I want my H to do. It's not his gift, but something I desire. I need to learn to accept him and the gifts he does have or else I'm constantly wishing he was something he isn't. I have a hard time dealing with this at times and don't know how to overcome it? My H and I have discussed these issues and he is aware of it.

Quote

My only concern with this "relaxed" attitude is that we get complacent again and forget what we have been through.

I get concerned with this as well, but I also feel we have learned from this and are continuing to learn.

Well, next response would be a cross-server 'tell' to the OM...basically IMing him in game from a user name that I'll end up deleting once our conversation is over. If he doesn't respond to that, I'll have a gameplan worked out for that in advance. I'm probably not going to do anything within the next two weeks at this point anyway...this Friday my wife leaves on a week vacation to her sisters. Not sure WHAT I'll be doing during that timeframe...LOL.

And we'll have to wait until after THAT to make a server move if that's what we decide to...won't be able to afford to do it and cover her vacation too.

Glad to hear that everyone's weekends went well!!

Sys-

Good point, and one that I'd thought of. And have debated on the value of a tell...same kind of issue. And I really DON'T have a desire to get into it with him...

We'll see how things run over the next week and then during the wife's vacation...and I'll have a plan in place by the time she gets back.

2BN-

My H has always been good about surprising me and buying gifts - not that's it's very often, necessarily, but he does get joy from it. That is a weakness for me. It's hard with my left brain to be creative and think of cool things to do and buy. I have not appreciated this fact about him in the past but I am trying now. Again, thanks to that book, I realize his showing love in this way is probably how he would like to receive it, too. Part of the EN that I need from him more is conversation & sharing of feelings. We are working on that, too.

Something that I thought about last week during some discussions with Win, is the idea of continuing thoughts of OM. I was feeling frustrated yet again that I was still having OM thoughts. What occurred to me is that we should recognize and expect that our memory won't suddenly disappear from our minds. Our memory of our EA's will gradually fade and we will continue to be able to put it in perspective. I remember thinking and WANTING thoughts of OM to just go away forever - forget everything so I can move on. I don't think that will happen - when I think back to R's before my H when I loved other men, I can remember how I felt about those people. Maybe I am unusual in that way, but I doubt it. I think the experience that we've had will always be with us in some way.

Cards-

You won't just 'forget' about him. What happened is in your past, and you can't remove it. BUT...you CAN keep it from being your present...think about it.

Take a look for a book called "The Battlefield of the Mind", by Joyce Meyers. I've just started reading it myself.

Hello,
I'm doing alright I guess, just depressed. H came home last night and he was so happy and excited to see me. I felt bad because I just don't feel that way. I was sort of dreading it, in a way. At least he's happy and so are the kids. I'm worried cuz I feel myself shutting down my feelings like I have been in the past few years.

It's good to see you guys 2b and cards are doing better with your M's.

-win

Win-

Have you told your H that you IM'ed with OM while he was gone yet?

Might that be part of your dread of his return?

I personally feel that a large part of your 'dread' and unhappiness around your H is due to guilt...but I could be full of snot too. Part of the problem is that he'll NEVER be able to meet your needs if YOU don't let him. And he'll never WANT TO if you continue to behave like you have...angry, recalcitrant, unforgiving, and above all still in contact with OM.

Cards - Thanks for your thoughts. The gifts, surprises etc. are not one of my "high needs" when I think about it in terms of Love Languages. But it is something that I associate with romance. For some reason, even though the OM could not obviously provide the gifts and surprises, etc. since we never met, I felt that he could (if we had been together)and I fantasized about being romanced. My H is not a romantic in those terms and maybe that was part of my attraction to the OM too? In reality, he may not have been what I thought he was, but in my fantasy he was.

It's true that we can't remove all thoughts of the OM, but we can take our focus off of the OM. My mind does slip back from time to time and dwell on some of the conversations I had with the OM, but it has become less of my focus. I would think as time goes by, we will start to think back less. We won't forget, but our thoughts will become less of the OM.

Win - It's great that your H was excited to see you and the kids. Why do you think you didn't feel that way about him coming home?

2b no I haven't told H yet. I'm sure he'll read all my posts so he will know. Frankly I don't have any guilt about talking to OM, thats not it. I enjoyed the peace while my H was gone and being on my own. He really wanted me to be happy and jump back in his arms and he was starting to get grumpy when I didn't. This is what I dreaded. I will tell him though.

Quote

2b no I haven't told H yet. I'm sure he'll read all my posts so he will know. Frankly I don't have any guilt about talking to OM, thats not it. I enjoyed the peace while my H was gone and being on my own. He really wanted me to be happy and jump back in his arms and he was starting to get grumpy when I didn't. This is what I dreaded. I will tell him though.

\

I wasn't getting grumpy. I was simply tired from travelling cross-country all day, and not sleeping well the night before. Plus you made it obvious that you were more interested in watching TV than talking to me, so I decided to go to bed. Of course I wanted you to be happy that I was home, and I was sad that you weren't, but it's not like there's much I could do about it, other than go to bed...

Welcome back, Bass.

I still think that the both of you could REALLY benifit from a GOOD marriage counselor. It seems to me like the two of you need some kind of 'neutral ground' to be able to talk and work through things.

Yeah, I'll second that Owl. Our MC while fairly passive, has been a vital part of our recovery. He provides us with a neutral referee, a cheerleader for our marriage and a voice of reason and wisdom. He gives us the perspective that we can't have right now.

Well, we seem to talk about things just fine when we are in the MC sessions. It's when we leave the office that our communication stops. I have to come on here to see how Win is feeling and what she is thinking. Our communication needs a lot of work; it's hard to transfer what we learn in MC and from books into real-life. I'm working on discussing my feelings with her in person. It's so much easier for us right now to discuss things via email than face-to-face.

When my wife and I were in the very beginning stages of recovery, it worked like this for us too. We were able to IM about the affair (rather ironic, when you think about the fact that her EA was online, via IM's mostly) much more openly and honestly than we could talk face to face...it was easier to avoid the hurt, and talk about the issues.

I do hope that you both can get to a point where you can be able to talk openly and honestly with each other, without either person fearing an attack.

I didn't want to tell him as soon as he got home that I talked to OM while he was gone. He got home late. The thing is I'm not sure he really wants to know what I am thinking or feeling right now, If it's not postitive about the M. ALso I'm still sorting a lot of this out in my head and sometimes discussing it just leads to a fight. I guess that's what we're suppose to do. If he totally wants to know everything, then he needs to be prepared for it.

Win-

AGREED. And it applies to BOTH of you. YOU should also deliver that information without attacking him as well. BOTH of you need to learn to LISTEN without reacting. And you need to be able to tell how you feel without ATTACKING the other person.

It takes work, but it's the only way that you can work through the issues.

Well, no response from the email to the OM at this point. I'm figuring that Sys is right, it IS the OM, and he's avoided responding.

I'm going to wait until after my wife gets back from her trip to make any further plans on it for now.

One good thing...we'd started last week in having a family devotional during the weeknights. They've gone pretty well, and the kids have been good about participating and taking them seriously. Last nite's devotional was on self-control, one of the "Fruits of the Spirit". I'm hoping that we'll see some benifit from that particular lesson for the WHOLE family.

Owl - It must be the OM since no response to the email. I would imagine the OM in my situation might not respond if after a year he received an email as such.

The family devotions sound great! That is something we stopped doing altogether as a family when the 1st OM came into the picture...stopped by me. We have not resumed them since.

What are you using for a devotional guide to keep your teenagers interested? And...how long does your family spend doing the devotion? Would like to know how other families do devotions and keep their teens interested!

Hope everyone else is doing well today!

God's Garden of Grace by Elizabeth George is one...the other is Fruit of the Spirit by Hazel Offner.

We're using the two of these to put together a devotional/lesson plan for each evening. LOL...remember that both my wife and I used to teach Sunday School many years ago, so we're used to setting something like this up.

We shoot for trying to have a half our devotional, but it usually ends up being closer to an hour. And we do occasionally struggle with keeping some of them interested the whole time, depending on moods and such, but most of the time they've been pretty active participants.

One of our 'assignements' under the fruits of the spirit (specifically, love) was that each person was randomly assigned someone else, and they had to do something for that person that showed them that they love them. Just prior to this, we had each person talk about what makes them feel loved (a la The Five Love Languages). We gave them a couple of days to make this happen. It was interesting to see what they all came up with.

Thanks Owl - I'll make a note of those books and take a look at them at the bookstore. It sounds like you and your W do a great job with the devotions!

Are your younger set of twins girls? I had thought I remembered you saying that your oldest are boys. We struggle with the girls not really wanting to open up during the devotions and I feel it will be hard to get back into again..but...I'm sure my H would like to start and he would welcome the idea of me wanting to start up again...especially if I did the searching for a good devotional book!

2BN- Oldest set is a boy and a girl (just graduated high school), and the youngest set is two boys (Sophmore's). Our daughter IS the hardest one to reach and keep involved in this...not so much because she's a girl, just because of her own personal circumstances at the moment. So she can be kind of 'hit or miss' in how much she gets out of these, but she does get it sometimes.

Win/Bass- So how did the discussion about resumed contact with OM go??

He said he didn't care if I talked to the OM.

Really? Just like that?? It didn't matter to him at all???

I was a little upset about it, but it's not like I'm surprised. I don't really worry about her talking to him, because I know he has been smart enough to give up on the relationship. If she wants to torture herself by still pursuing him when he is clearly gone then that's her own affair.

What I care vastly more about is the fact that she was happier when I was gone, and the fact that she feels she hasn't tried hard enough, but she doesn't know if she can. We had a long talk about the wall she has put up against me and it comes down to the fact that she doesn't trust me to change myself. I feel like I have made positive strides towards doing just that, and I continue to work on it and make progress. But if she's going to ignore that progress there's not much I can do to change her mind.

I also finally told her that I'm getting annoyed with her passive-aggressive ways and her lack of explaining how she feels to me. I feel in some ways she's already decided what she wants to do, but she's waiting for school to end to drop the bomb on me and the kids. She swears she's still working things out and thinking. I think we're both getting exhausted of the roller-coaster ride. I swing back and forth between hopelessness and feeling maybe things can be worked out. Every day is pretty much pure agony. I'm trying to get used to the fact of divorce but in some ways I still can't believe we're going to do this to each other and the kids.

Quote

He said he didn't care if I talked to the OM.

This indifference from your H must be difficult to understand, I would think.

oops ... I read his response after I posted and hit "send".

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Here's the problem as I see it with your situation, Win and Bass.

Neither one of you has a PLAN.

Bass, you're making the changes that you feel need to be made to make things work out. How do you MEASURE those changes? What are you using as a comparison to show that you've improved? And are you POSITIVE you're making the RIGHT changes?

Win, you've not yet given the whole thing any kind of real chance. You've consistently laid all of this back on Bass. YOU have to make changes too...and not just in ending contact with OM and changing how you interact with guys online. The whole time I've been hearing you say that you don't know that Bass can change...I've not seen any indication that YOU have started to make any real changes in yourself either. The situation you two are in is BOTH OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES (I'm not talking about the A). So BOTH of you need to fix it.

Bluntly...get to an MC who knows how to help marriages recover from infidelity, and get someone who can help you BOTH get a plan.

The reason you're both miserable is because you've just wallowed around this whole time and made NO progress. Time to s4!t or get off the pot, as my dad would have said.

'Nuff said.

Everytime I try to explain how I feel, Bass gets defensive and tries to talk me out of my feelings. If you want to know how I feel you have to accept it as my feelings. This is where I see him not changing, in the communication. He wants a gold star for giving up his video games and one last coaster trip, but the issue for me is how I am treated and if I am heard. So I"m not going to confess my doubt or negative thoughts because they get used against me.

Then get the both of you to counseling where you BOTH CAN LEARN HOW TO EFFECTIVELY COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER!!!

Winn & Bass - Owl makes some VERY good points. Both of you do need to take responsiblity and going to a MC will help you both with learning to communicate with each other. I don't know what else to say here...I've been reading today, but I see no progress with either of you in how you relate to each other.

I'll be out of here soon until next Tuesday. Talk to everyone when I return!

Quote

Everytime I try to explain how I feel, Bass gets defensive and tries to talk me out of my feelings.

Win, could you provide specific examples of when I was doing that last night? I know that I was kind of slipping into that, and I made an effort during the conversation to stop doing that and just let you talk. It IS something I'm trying to work on...but how do you want me to respond if you're not interpreting me correctly, or if I feel you're not seeing the whole picture? Aren't I allowed to object if I think you've made a wrong assumption about how I feel? I don't want to trample on your feelings...but at the same time I feel like I have to stand up for myself if you're interpreting me in the wrong way. I have to admit I have trouble with this at times. I have to keep reminding myself not to argue and to just let you get things out, whether I like them or not.

Quote

He wants a gold star for giving up his video games and one last coaster trip, but the issue for me is how I am treated and if I am heard.

Yes, I can't lie, I would like to see any progress I make noted. I would like to get feedback from you when I'm doing the things you don't like. It gets frustrating to hear AFTERWARDS that I've not listened to you or I've been defensive. I need to know WHEN I'm doing it and WHEN it's bothering you so I can correct the behaviour and give you the space you need. Unless you just want me to shut up and let you talk without EVER responding...if that's what you want then you have to let me now that.

Quote

So I'm not going to confess my doubt or negative thoughts because they get used against me.

Don't give up so easily. If you want to work through this stuff you need to be a little tougher. You know I'm not going to hit you or walk out on you if you speak your mind.

Owl...you are pretty spot on. We've made pretty much zero progress. Our MC seems to help us when we are in there but the communication goes to hell again when we are outside of the office.

My plan has basically been to cut out the things in my life that did not include Win, to lose weight so I'm more attractive to her, to try and curb my selfishness and controlling behavior, and to try and build intimacy back into our marriage.

I know that in terms of cutting out the bad things, I'm doing well...I've been off the computer almost completely at home, I'm not planning on taking any more vacations seperate from my family, I quit smoking pot three months ago and that has stuck, and I'm spending more time with her than before. In terms of the losing weight, I've lost 30+ pounds since D-Day and I've been working out 6x a week for the last three months without fail.

In terms of the selfishness and control, I think I've made strides but I have a long way to go. I'm trying to monitor everything I say to see if I'm making selfish demands or trying to work together with her and keep her interests in mind. I slip up sometimes but it's not going to change overnight. In terms of the intimacy, I'm trying to talk about how I feel, and I'm trying to let her into my life. However, she's very cold to most things from me, so I feel like I'm trying to be intimate with a brick wall at times. I wish I was getting more feedback in this area.

I also wonder if there are other things I need to work on that Win isn't telling me about. I've asked her to tell me, and I'm asking her again here. She hasn't mentioned anything else yet, other than the fact that I need to let her talk and not get defensive, which is a real struggle for me, as she sometimes make assumptions about my feelings that are wrong.

In terms of her, she has made a lot of effort to get off the computer when I am home. However, when I'm gone, she tends to have some drinks and the same behaviour starts again. It makes me wonder if she will ever be able to go back to being a wife as opposed to an internet party girl. I know she has opened a Pandora's Box of all these good-looking guys who would like to have sex with her, and she enjoys the attention. I fear she enjoys it way too much to quit, and our marriage has no hope if that stuff continues to go on. Our therapist made a big deal out of the "married too early, didn't have enough fun" angle, and I suppose there's a lot of truth to that. I just wish she had realized she wanted to party this hard before we had children and brought a house.

It sounds to me like you two need to go back to some BASIC communication skills too...

1. ONE person talks at a time. No matter WHAT is said, you do NOT interrupt the person who is talking. Allow them to finish, without any interruption, rude noises, disparaging facial comments, etc...

2. Once one person has finished talking, THEN the other person can respond. The first person is not entitled to interrupt, correct, or respond in any way while the second person is talking.

3. After an issue has been aired, and responded to once, it's DROPPED for the time being. NO further comments are allowed during that time of conversation.

4. NEVER make personal attacks of any kind. Talk about the problems, behaviours, etc...but NEVER attack the PERSON.

5. Schedule set time to discuss issues, and STICK TO THE TIME LIMITS. Do NOT continue conversation once time is past.

This is basic stuff you teach kids in Kindergarten. But...it's amazing how we forget stuff like this as adults.

I did tell you last night while you were doing it. When I was trying to explain the EN's that the OM was meeting and you said you have been meeting those EN's. If you were, then why did I need to find them somewhere else?

Yes I see you go to the gym, yes I see you stopped playing video games, unless you see me watching tv. And you had your so called last coaster trip. It's the inside that I need to see change. You can't always look to me to praise everything you do. You need to change for you, more than me.

That married too early stuff is just pure BS. I was married with four kids by the time I was 20. My wife had married and divorced once before I met her. NONE of our issues have anything to do with not having partied enough before we met. Sounds to me like excuses, not a real cause.

Quote

I did tell you last night while you were doing it. When I was trying to explain the EN's that the OM was meeting and you said you have been meeting those EN's. If you were, then why did I need to find them somewhere else?

OK, yes, I recall that. I think what I meant to say is that I'm trying to meet those now. In terms of the past, you are totally right, I was ignoring a lot of your needs. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I think we get confused some times between talking about now and talking about the past.

Quote

Yes I see you go to the gym, yes I see you stopped playing video games, unless you see me watching tv. And you had your so called last coaster trip. It's the inside that I need to see change. You can't always look to me to praise everything you do. You need to change for you, more than me.

Yes, the inside is the hard part to change. All I can say is that I'm working on it. I feel it is better, but certainly not perfect. It's going to take me awhile. I guess that's why I want feedback, just so I can tell how I'm doing. I DON'T want praise every five seconds...but I guess I would like a little encouragement now and then so I feel like things are being noticed. If that's too much to ask then I can learn to live without it, but it makes it harder to change.

Wait, who is saying WHO partied hard? I don't think we need to go there, you have PLENTY of skeletons in your closet. AND after we had the kids.

I know what it is exactly, it's called escaping from problems. IT's wrong and I'ved stopped it. You know how easy it is to want to escape, you've done it for most of the years of our marriage.

"I know she has opened a Pandora's Box of all these good-looking guys who would like to have sex with her"

YOU opened that box, even sending Nic over to me.

focus on solving today's issues NOT going over who did what in the past...

ALL the issues are today's issues. You can't igore the past if you want to move ahead into the future. It's just not possible.

No, but you can stop throwing the past in each other's faces...THAT is one of the things that need to happen here.

At some point, you have to call amnesty for past offenses and work on fixing the problems you've got NOW.

So...right now, at this time, what is Bass doing that he needs to change? (Not what does he need to change from what he was doing during/prior to the EA, what is he doing NOW that needs to change?)

So...right now, at this time, what is Win doing that she needs to change? (Not what does she need to change from what she was doing during/prior to the EA, what is she doing NOW that needs to change?)

Start with THESE issues. You'll probably find that the other issues will either disappear or become much easier to deal with once you've worked through these.

Develop a PLAN for working on your own issues. Let your spouse help you identify what you need to work on, and what measures you can use to see if you're improving or not. But...you are responsible for YOU.

solving today's issues

Win/Bass-

Hope you two have managed to solve some of TODAY's issues.

Cards- Hope all is going well for you my friend!

Sys- Same to you...btw, my lvl 50 ranger started on his epic last nite! LOL

Owl-

Doing fine, thank you. Actually, within myself I'm doing somewhat better. I'm still trying to answer these internal questions that seem to be hindering my ability to move forward into the future. I'm not struggling about OM. It's about the entire event and how my thinking went so haywire. I still want to know how it all happened. In my opinion it's more complicated than I met a guy online, starting talking to him, then became emotionally attached. That's the beginning of it, but how did I let myself become so detached from reality during that time? How did I become so immersed in the fantasy? How could just merely lacking some EN's do all of that? I tried to explain this to my H the other night and I felt a lot better. He has been resistant to listening about the EA & my feelings because he takes it so personally and focuses only on the fact that there was another M involved, but I was trying to explain that it is much more than OM. Anyway, he did listen and I'm not sure exactly what he thought, but it helped me to just be able to express it. At one point he said he can't be my counsellor and I got frustrated because I wasn't asking for him to be. I just wanted to explain it all to him.

I wrote the title of the book down that you recommended, Owl. I will check it out. I am looking for some reading that would help me answer those questions. Any other book suggestions along those lines? You seem to do a lot of self analysis yourself, so maybe you understand why I want to figure this out.

Win-

I understand that you feel the past is part of the present & future. Your hurt and pain resulted from things done in the past. I think it's necessary for you both to be able to express ALL of your hurts and pains - and both of you acknowledge each other's points of views. But once you both have had the chance to explain, those things have to be put to bed so you can start to move ahead. It sounds like there is still so much anger & resentment and it may take many counselling sessions in order to communicate it all and deal with it. You will have to deal with those feelings before you can move forward, and you have to recognize that holding onto all that is resentment and anger will continue to immobilize YOU, not just your M.

My H and I have always had to go back and re-explain things to each other. Many, many times what I say he "hears" differently. Our communication styles are very different. My H tends to blurt out what comes to mind, whereas I choose my words very carefully so that I say what I really mean. Neither of us is wrong, but this has caused us many a problem with communcating. At least after 19 years we both know this!

Sys, hope you are doing well.

Cards-

I can completely understand your wish to understand how 'you let it happen'...so to speak, and I'm NOT saying that with any kind of blame at all. I am the kind of person who has to understand everything myself.

Sadly, I don't think you'll ever reach a point where it will truly make sense. You can't grasp the logic of something that is completely irrational.

And the whole affair thing does seem to be something that is completely irrational. It doesn't follow any 'logic'...it's all based on emotions, and emotional responses. You can sorta make some sense out of it, but at some point you're just going to have to say 'well, I did that because it's what I felt like doing at the time, and I did it without any thought to long term consequences'.

You'll probably be better served by focusing on making things better now, and not worry as much about the past. But...always remember how bad it CAN get if you let it too. That's about all I can do on my end of things.

Ranger! LMAO

I've never heard anything good about rangers. My W started out as a Ranger then switched to a Necro. She is forever poking fun at Rangers )

Uh-oh...I don't have much use for necros!! OM in our case ran a gnome necro as his main!! LOL

Sorry for the threadjack...it's what happens when you let two gamers talk! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Owl-

Quote

I don't think you'll ever reach a point where it will truly make sense. You can't grasp the logic of something that is completely irrational.

I guess you're right, Owl. I only thought understanding it would help me understand myself better. This has really affected my sense of "self" and who I thought I was. I believe I'm feeling the guilt and wrong about it and I want to know how I would compromise my values. So......it has really shaken my perception of my identity and value system. Very unsettling.

I can imagine Cards. My only insight into this from your perspective would be what I've observed in my wife. She hasn't talked much about feeling guilt or shame over what happened, but the few times she has, she's made it clear that it's something that she's dealing/dealt with. In her case, she's basically recognized her role in what happened, and she's turned it over to God to deal with.

Again, ALL of us have made mistakes in our past. The trick is to know how to avoid making that same mistake again, and in doing your best to fix things and set them right after you recognize the mistake that you've made. And after that...do your best to just let it go.

Quote

Sorry for the threadjack...it's what happens when you let two gamers talk! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh dear, I can't take any advice from a gamer!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Quote

Win/Bass-

Hope you two have managed to solve some of TODAY's issues.

There are no more issues. I asked her to move out this weekend. At least Pep will be happy that we've failed.

Thanks to all on here who tried to help, especially Owl and Cards. This marriage was just not meant to be saved.

Bass and Win-

I'm very sorry to hear that you've given up. I hope that everything works out the best possible way that it can for the both of you, and you children.

Quote

At least Pep will be happy that we've failed.

Win & Bass-

I am so sad, it almost made me cry to read your post. I don't know what to say, except that there must have been parts of both of you that wanted to save the M. Otherwise you wouldn't have BOTH posted here and attended MC. Maybe some time separate will allow you both to work on your own selves. Maybe then you will be able to "go the distance" and put more time into the M to find your ways back to each other. I sincerely hope so.

Quote

At least Pep will be happy that we've failed.

Dear Bass ... your marriage is as important as any other marriage. If your marriage cannot be saved, that is very sad.

Pep

Well, I have to admit that I'm still nervous about putting my wife on the plane tomorrow to go visit her sister. It's completely irrational, but it's how I feel. I've talked with her a bit about it, and she knows and understands how I feel. At the same time, I think it should be a good thing for her...I think she needs a break from me and the kids for a bit. I'm hoping for the 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' premise to kick in.

Owl,

Why are you so nervous about this? Has she done something to prompt your concern? And isn't her heart "fond" towards you right now? Is this about trust and your insecurity stemming still from the EA?

(Good luck answering all those questions - now you know what's always going on in my head about my own issues!)

Quote

Dear Bass ... your marriage is as important as any other marriage. If your marriage cannot be saved, that is very sad.

Pep

Pep, sorry I threw in that shot at you. I was a little upset when I posted and I shouldn't have added that. My apologies.

Cards-

OK...I can answer these easily enough. LOL!

My nervousness makes NO sense, but it's still there. She has knows that I'm a little worried about this, but she also knows that I understand her need for this, and I am willing to support her in going. (Matter of fact, I spoke to the kids a few minutes ago asking them to do a good job in helping Mom get packed out.)

It DOES stem from the affair tho. I would not have been as nervous about this if it hadn't been for what happened last year. Guess just putting her on a plane is something of a trigger for me right now. And it's just a matter of insecurity on my part...she's done NOTHING to give me any reason to be worried about this trip.

I'm hoping that she'll have a good time, but at the same time get to where she misses having me there to share that good time with...and so she'll look forward to coming home. I plan on having the house [censored] and span on the day she gets back, and just have things setup so she's got a nice homecoming to look forward to.

Can't say what I feel makes sense, but at least I'm not going to let it rule what I do.

Quote

Dear Bass ... your marriage is as important as any other marriage. If your marriage cannot be saved, that is very sad.

Pep

Pep, sorry I threw in that shot at you. I was a little upset when I posted and I shouldn't have added that. My apologies.

No problem Bass ... take care of yourself.

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I can understand your nervousness given the fact of the EA and also the fact that she was to fly off with OM. It's bad timing for this AND the gaming/email issue happening at the same time, I think. Maybe this is one of those things that you accept that will bother you, and not try to figure out the reasonableness about it. Just like you told me, we won't be able to understand everything in a logical way. I am sure that fewer things will trigger you and the triggers will be further apart.

It sounds like your W needs a break, and I'm sure just getting away will do wonders for her. I'm very envious. It should be good for both of you and strengthen your already good recovery!!

Bass-

Please share if you want............we will listen.

Thanks, Cards, but I kind of feel there's not much more to say. I'm very sad to say goodbye to someone I've spent 22 years with, but the writing was on the wall and it's time to let go. In some ways, it feels kind of liberating to not have to deal with withdrawal issues anymore, and to not have to be a detective anymore. Plus my heart feels better in that I feel the worst of the hurt has already happened, and my life can only go up from here.

I am very concerned for Win, but she is an adult and she will have to find her own way. She has lots of friends and family to support her and I'm sure she will come out of this OK.

It's overwhelming to think about all the other things that need to be done now, but at least there's going to be kind of a brief respite as we resettle our living conditions. All the issues about the kids and the house and the finances are looming but neither one of us can really think about them right now. The only pressing issue is that we will have to explain to the kids why Mommy is living at Grandma's now, and I'm dreading that. I've done some research on how to tell them and I know how to do it, I just hate letting them down and breaking their hearts like this. Especially my daughter, she has been kind of fragile lately already, and this won't help. And she's closer to me, so it's going to fall mostly on me to help her through this.

Ugh... :-(

Win-

So what's your view on this? I've read Bass's comments over in the divorce forum, and he described a lot more than just a 'harmless' closure conversation with OM.

Based on just your overall attitude about recovery, I'm curious on what your plan moving forward is going to be now.

I don't really know what I'm suppose to say. I don't really want to air everything out on a message board. I know I've used OM's as an escape to not deal with my real feelings of not wanting to continue the M. Yes, a cop out. Yes, a conflict-avoider. I want to change that. I plan to stay in IC to work through my issues and help my children and I would hope that Bass would consider it as well. I know Bass is angry and he needs somewhere to vent his feelings and his side and i will respect that and stay away. I have my own support system.

Well, wife's been away for two days now. I'm tired. We've IM'ed a few times, and I called her last nite for a few minutes. She's having a great time, and I'm hoping it all works out well for her.

I still feel odd, but we'll see how things go while she's gone. I'm just lonely as heck right now.

Hope everyone else is doing alright...I've posted responses to Win and Bass on their own thread now.

Owl-

How are you doing today? You said you were "tired" - mentally tired, or what? I'm glad your W is having a good time. I think the weekends are the hardest when people are gone because we are so out of our routines and those are the times when we are accustomed to being with those people. Hopefully you are feeling somewhat better today.

Sys, how have you and your W been? How is she doing?

Glad that Win & Bass got some additional support on their own thread. I'm hoping and praying that they will try harder and give it a chance.

Sorry I haven't been too vocal out here lately. My situation seems pretty trivial by comparisson to the fireworks out here.

Anyway, things are pretty good. It's ahrd to describe the dynamic that I'm beginnign to see emerge in my case. It seems that we do better and better, then plateau with a bunch of ups and downs on that pleateau, and then generally, have another push for the better. Most recently, things seemed really good. My W is either really making an effort or is genuinely feeling alot better about us. We talked about it a few nights ago. I mentioned that she seemed a lot happier of late and more affectionate and that I thought we had made a lot of progress lately. She agreed, said she'd been very happy recently and that she was still trying really hard and was hopeful for us. Yet when she said all of this, she seemed a bit shy about it -not a typical trait for her. I didn't push the issue, but in the constant state of paranoia I'm still in (Owl, sound familiar?), I began to wonder why she seemed so uncomfortable saying those things.

After that, it seemed like she retreated a bit, and I'm thinking maybe I should just lay off the relationship talk unless it's really pressing or at MC -it seems to put her off balance when I bring stuff up out of the blue.

Anyway, I still beleive that we are on the road to recovery. I won't feel secure until she can tell me she honestly loves me the way she needs to, but I feel like with each passing week it gets better between us. We are both finally relaxing and joking and just enjoying each other's company. The one thing that I think still messes us up is the kids. Love them to death, but they can really kill the mood sometimes. We'll be having a really nice day, a nice moment, whatever and along comes one or the other screaming for one thing or another. It's hard for us to give each other attention during the day while our kids are demading our attention too(heck, they're 5 and 2 almost -what do you expect).

We'll be going on a weeks vacation with my family (mom and GM) next week -should be good for us I think. We'll have 2 babysitters who are more than happy to take the kids off our hands and it will be nice to be away from the everyday grind.

Sys-

Make sure you take advantage of your "free" babysitters. I wish that we had taken the advice given to us when our kids were at the stage you are. We were told over and over to have dates and go out, but we didn't. We had 3 kids in 2 years and there were very few people that could babysit and handle that. Anyway, had we spent more time on our M and each other during those years, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. Those years with young kids are very stressful - so much, if not all, is focused on them. Now that we have moved from that stage and have school-aged kids there is some relief from the day-to-day running after little ones. Now we have to re-find our connection to each other after so much time has elapsed.

It's great that you see strides in your R and how much effort your W is putting in. My H would say that he still hasn't SEEN much effort on my part, but I have asked him to trust that mentally I am in a much better place in being hopeful for our M. So, even though he doesn't see great demonstration in affection from me, I know that in my mind the commitment continues to strengthen. That could be true for your W as well if there are times where the progress appears to be stalled.

You mentioned being paranoid. I don't think my H is paranoid, but he does still ask me out of the blue sometimes if everything is ok (meaning "you haven't talked to that guy again, have you?"). Sometimes he will read into my mood which must trigger something for him.

Along with being awfully busy lately, I, too, have felt that I've had little to report. But I do know that reading and posting does help me.

Cards-

Both mentally and physically tired. I've not been able to sleep well, and that combined with the stress from work and dealing with our four teenagers, I really do feel pretty run down. Actually was out sick today from work, but HAD to go in for something late this afternoon.

Sys-
I do understand that paranoia. And sadly it's something I'm still occasionally dealing with, FOR NO REASON. My wife has given me NO indication of any problems for a year now, so WHY am I so stressed out about her being at her sisters?!?!

But I'm glad to hear that things are going well for you my friend. Things WILL keep getting easier. What really helps is when you hear her say "what was I thinking?!?!" Keep up the awesome work!

cards-

I'm convinced that althought the seeds and roots of our problems were there before the kids, having the kids made things much harder. Sudden'y we never got to out, we were mentally and physically exhausted most of the time (still are) and there was very little opportunity for "us". Out MC had an interesting insight into that and what impact i's had on us which is that after spending the whole day with needy kids physically and emotionally crawling all over her, creating a general ruckus, the last thing my wife wanted when I got home was another attention seeking, physically needy person (me) so ther may have been a great degree of distancing on her part becuase of that -which I resented, which led to anger and frustation on my part, which made me unpleasant to be around, and I began to retreat from her b/c i was angry... and the whole thing spirals from there.

I don't blame the kids, but rather our inability to recognize and deal with the changed dynamic in the house and how it was effecting us. Essentially we took a marriage that had some minor problems and threw it into a really high-stress situation and didn't handle it well at all.

Now we have the benefit of insight, the kids getting older and easier and we are getting a sitter once a week now and just going out for a few hours.

As for the paranoia -it is real and uncontrollable. If you look at it from the BS POV it's not hard to understand. As far as we knew, everything was OK with our spouses, then suddenly we discover that they have been hiding the most painful, awful secret from us. Suddenly you realize the one person you trusted most in the world has betrayed you utterly. At that point, you begin to question everything they have ever said or done. You put every thing they do and say under the microscope b/c you don't know what to believe anymore -your trust is so completly broken. This is not a deliberate behavior -it just is. You can't not feel that way. All you can do is try to talk yourself out of acting on the paranoia without thinking it though first. It's something I live with and have to manage every day. And I'll tell you, it can be exhausting. It sounds like your H is either dealing with it really well, or just not letting it show. The best way to put it to rest is to be open and honest about how your dealing with the situation. I wish my W was more so. The one time she told me how hard it was maintining NC, probably di more to allay my fears than hurt me. It was hard to hear that, but at the same time it reaasuured me that she was working hard for us.

Sys-

Your description of how the BS feels after d-day is dead on the money for me too. I don't know that my wife completely understands that either, nor do I really think that she'd ever be able to do so.

It can affect your self-esteem too. You know now that you're 'disposable'. That you CAN be replaced in her heart and her mind, and that HURTS.

That paranoia has been a big part of what I'm dealing with while the wife's out of state right now. She's given me NO reason to believe that anything will happen while she's gone, but that fear is still there. All I can do is fight it as best I can and wait for her to come home this weekend. Hopefully some of the other FWS here on MB will read this and it can provide them some insight in what kind of emotional issues the BS goes through even during recovery.

Cards- Hope you're doing well friend!

Quote

the last thing my wife wanted when I got home was another attention seeking, physically needy person (me)

EXACTLY!!! Sys, I will tell you that EVEN NOW, years after those little people literally hung on me, I STILL feel like I have less need for physical touch. My kids are still physically affectionate even now at these ages, so somehow I think all of that physical touch helps to fill up that need. My H feels shortchanged because the kids are "stealing" his share of physical touch from me. This is something I am working on for my H. AND, as in your situation, since I pulled away physically a while ago (not just sexually) he felt rejected and then HE pulled away emotionally. So......there starts the whole thing...neither of us getting our needs met.

I appreciate your explanation of the paranoia, it is understandable. I know I would feel the same if the situation were reversed. I see that it will take time for my H and all BS to rebuild that security and trust.

Quote

The one time she told me how hard it was maintining NC, probably di more to allay my fears than hurt me. It was hard to hear that, but at the same time it reaasuured me that she was working hard for us.

It's hard to admit to H about fighting NC, although I have been totally upfront about days where the EA is more in my thoughts. He has found that by reading my posts here that is where he has gotten the most assurance of my willingness to work on the M. He has told me several times that he can see by what I have written how hard I am working. Maybe it's easier to absorb the written words rather than interpretting them correctly in an emotionally charged discussion. It does make sense that you would feel "good" about hearing her admit to those feelings - after all you already know that there were strong feelings associated with the EA and they didn't just disappear. I would continue to encourage her to share with you, it keeps the connection going, it helps her get it out, and it helps you know where her head is.

BTW, while I was writing this post, my H called me and invited me to lunch. These small, seemingly little efforts on his part are demonstrating to me his efforts, too. Little by little.......

Quote

My kids are still physically affectionate even now at these ages, so somehow I think all of that physical touch helps to fill up that need. My H feels shortchanged because the kids are "stealing" his share of physical touch from me.

yep-yep know it myself. I can remember when we got a new puppy (who grew to be a huge beast). My W would cuddle with the pup on the couch and leave me to sit elsewhere -this was the beginning of our physical retreat. Up until then we always cuddled on the couch together. I was jealous of a dog! But I told myself that was silly and I began to sit in another chair and after a while that became a habit. Next she was seriously injured in a car accident and I couldn't even begin to touch her without it causing pain, so for the better part of a year, physical contact between us was limited. This is all around the itme she began to have problems with us. Is there a connection? She'll say no -that I was becoming hard to live with -which I counter with: I was grouchy b/c I was physically lonely and under stress worrying about her health and the loss of her income. Years go by, habits get entrenched, anger builds under the surface and neither of us could see it for what it was. Then come the kids and we are pushed further apart. She starts getting alot of whatever physical needs (and more) met by the children. I get more resentful. She misses adult companionship during the day and turns to an on-line game. Meanwhile I feel more and more abandoned and shut down to her emotionally. Now she's really unhappy and turns to the OM as a confidant. Before you know it, he's meeting her ENs and I'm silently watching the TV,at a slow boil b/c I feel rejected. Again, I felt all this but didn't recognize it -it just manifested itself as a nagging sense of unfocused frustration and disatisfaction.

It's good to be able to understand how we got here, but there's not much to do about the past except learn from it. Now I just hope we can make it.

Hey Owl, guess what? W was just playing EQ2 for a few and it's tuesday and I'm not paranoid. Either I'm feeling alot more trust, or I'm a dope :P

Hi everyone! Just popping in here real quick to say hi!
We got back from our vacation yesterday afternoon. We had a great time together as a family. My H had the whole trip planned out so well for us...he had an absolute blast which was very much needed for him.

I will say that I had some struggling thoughts of the OM while I was away. I can't understand with how busy we were that my mind went there? On the flight up we flew directly over both of the OM's cities and we were low enough at that time to where I could see the cities...that was hard for me with just thinking about if I would have flown to see the OM.

But while we were on vacation, my mind kept dwelling on the OM and it was hard for me to stop! I even thought in my head that I would write him when I returned. I completely don't understand this! I don't understand that when I am on vacation and extremely busy, that my mind would go there! However, now that I'm home, my sanity is back and I am not planning on emailing him.

About the BS's paranoia...last year on our family vacation, my H was extremely paranoid. I had used calling cards to call the 1st OM previous to our vacation. My H kept these calling card #'s on him and constantly checked those #'s while we were on vacation. He thought for sure I was planning to somehow meet OM #1!! I had no plans to do so. At this point last year, I was just about to end my communications with OM #1, but my H thought that it had all ended...but I guess not totally sure since he was checking the calling cards. This vacation he was definately more relaxed and more sure of "us".

Hope everyone is doing well. Win & Bass - so sorry to hear the turn of events on your situation.

LOL...well, I'd say you're not being a dope...you're recovering! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not paranoid about my wife being at home alone anymore. I don't worry whenever she sits down at the computer like I used to.

And I've found that the paranoia does come and go in cycles a lot of times too. The cycles get less and less, and the paranoia reduces quite a bit. In my case, it's not paranoia now, it's just an occasional worry about things. For example, I know that the wife would have been very hard pressed to hide any contact with OM, based on a number of things. But, it would be a LOT easier for her to contact him while she's at her sister without my knowing it. Again, I have no reason to believe that she would, but I know that it's possible.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that your doing so well friend!

Quote

BTW, while I was writing this post, my H called me and invited me to lunch. These small, seemingly little efforts on his part are demonstrating to me his efforts, too. Little by little.......

I meant to comment on this as well. You know from my perspective, these little things mean so much when they come from my W too. She's really made some great efforts to include me in things that in the past she wouldn't have bothered. Things like stopping by for lunch with the kids, or inviting me along on a day trip during the week. When she compliments me, or recognizes my efforts -all of this means so much.

If nothing else comes of this expereince it will be that I've learned to take nothing for granted.

Sys-

Isn't that amazing that we are living the same life - many, many of us!!!???? You would think we would all learn from each other, wouldn't you? A while ago you talked about wanting to educate your W about how this all happened. Does she agree with this scenario? I had to smile when reading your account because your story is basically the same as mine (except for the dog!). I agree, now that we've analyzed and know the why's all we can do is move forward and learn about those needs that we neglected for each other - the question is how to start meeting them now AND repair any hurt, resentment, or anger that resulted from not meeting them. Unfortunately, just the knowledge of how we got here doesn't fix everything.

Owl, try to relax about your W being gone. Look at it that during this time that she is away, she can refocus on your M. You KNOW she is committed to YOU and your M. Is your anxiety about mistrusting her while she is away, or is it about you being at home without her? Maybe focus on you - go get a massage and do something really relaxing for YOURSELF!

Cards - any ideas why I would have felt the way I did during my vacation?

We are going away next month as well and I don't want to have this happen again!

2BN-

Sorry, you and I must have posted at the same time earlier! Welcome back friend.

Its not surprising that you had thoughts on OM(s) while you're on vacation, but it is a little concerning that you'd considered calling him at all. I am glad that your trip was a lot better for you this year though.

Just keep working on actively avoiding thoughts of OM, and of deliberately changing what you're thinking of when you DO think of is the only thing I can suggest.

Cards-

I'll have to try to take some time to do something 'for me' at some point. I just gotta figure out what/when/how. On a positive note, my wife has called me several times while she's been gone, and used her sister's computer to IM me a few times as well. So at least we've been in touch a good amount, and all of our communication has been positive. (Though I have communicated to her just how much I miss her! LOL)

Owl - I thought my post got lost in there! Thanks for the welcome back.

You may have misunderstood the calling part as I was referring to last year's vacation when talking about the calling cards.

I had thought about emailing the OM while I was on vacation this year. My thoughts were very strong of the OM and I wonder if it had to do with just being away from my normal routines? I had thought that being away from my normal routines would make me NOT think of the OM, but for me it had the opposite effect. Maybe it had to do with being somewhere different? I didn't mention this to my H..well not the intensity of my thoughts. I only told him that I still have weird unexplained thoughts of sometimes contacting the OM. I didn't dwell on it with my H during vacation as I didn't want to spoil his fun.

2BN-

Welcome back, 2B, we missed you! So glad you had a good trip and your H engineered it all, too! I would really appreciate that!

Well. I was totally surprised, too, when I was on vacation that I thought of OM so much. I thought vacation was what the doctor ordered for me - time away from my normal routine, my pc, some nice weather. My expectations were that it would do me a world of good. NO, it didn't....at least while I was gone. Why not? For me I was too much out of my routine - I had some strategies in place for dealing with withdrawal and when I left on vacation I didn't have those (i.e. this site, my online games, for example).

I think I suffered MORE obvious withdrawal while being gone because being away from home was more drastic. What I mean is, up until this time away we were slowly withdrawing from our EA's. We still had little things each day that sort of kept us in the EA, the little triggers and such. We were dealing with them and slowly weaning off them. THEN......we left town. For me, no triggers around to give me any thoughts. Since I was still in withdrawal, my mind subconsciously went to OM to create the triggers to keep the "addiction". I also think my expectations were too high for my H and I to connect during our vacation time - that didn't happen either, contributing to the fact of not having EN's met. That's just my take on my situation, it may not apply to you at all, 2B.

I was ready to get home by the end of my trip and get back in my routine. I remember coming back and posting about how disappointed I was in myself the same we you are saying. I was frustrated that I felt I had gone backwards and didn't understand why. I think I will go back and read that for more insight. It will pass, 2B, and you will be back to where you were, no matter what the reasons are that OM are in your thoughts. Give it a few days and get back in your routine, you'll be fine. Get back posting!!! I also don't think I realized how much I depended on you all for support!

OWL - Before your mind even goes there, don't in ANY way take this and apply it to your W being gone on her trip!!! Myself & 2BN were/are still in withdrawal from our EA's at the time of these trips. Your W's EA was over a year ago!!

sorry to hear that the vacas weren't so great. I hope we have a little more luck. I've learned not to put any expectations on special events. That's a formula for dissapointment. We are both really looking forward to it, and hopefully my W won't have the same reaction that you all did -but if she does, at least I've had a heads up -thanks.

I know, 2BN. And honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if thoughts of the OM DO cross her mind while she's on her vacation. Because this is the first time she's done something totally on her own in ages...other than when she got ready to leave last year.

But what I've been reminding myself of is that this ISN'T last year. We have put a perfectly wonderful year under our belt since then, and I need to let that build up my confidence in both her, and in myself. So I've been trying to let that worry go.

I just can't wait for her to get back!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sys-

Hope we didn't discourage you. Keep in mind, Sys, that you & your W are roughly on the same timeline as me. My vacation was 9 weeks ago and I am in a different place today than I was 9 weeks ago. Your W is, too. NC at that time was just a few weeks, now it's months. 2BN had contact fairly recently. Your W is and will be further along than either of us were at the time of our vacations.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Cards, I think for me on this vacation, I was able to connect with my H and we did have some good times together. We even had some alone time since our daughters are older. We were able to go out to dinner alone several nights and take some nice walks while the kids stayed at the hotel. It was a nice break for us to be able to do that and I did enjoy my time with my H. And I did enjoy his planning of everything! He had planned this trip for months and really did a good job!

I didn't feel that my vacation was totally ruined by these thoughts of the OM, but I hadn't had such strong thoughts of the OM in awhile and I had to work hard (in my head) to try to stop them. This all caught me so off guard. At times, we were all walking around as a family and my mind would drift to the OM about all sorts of things...conversations, thinking of contacting him, etc.!!

Cards, I do remember how you felt when you returned from your vacation. I had thought about that on my vacation and thought how can this be? I knew you were still in withdrawals during your vacation, but I don't consider myself in withdrawals anymore. I kept thinking if I'm not in withdrawal, why do I keep thinking of the OM?

My thoughts are clearer today being back into my routine at work and home and I'm able to control my thoughts better. Maybe being on vacation with no planning and no routines just did me in. Plus my H did plan everything and I wanted it that way. I basically just followed him around and let him lead us during the entire trip. I had not wanted to think about planning anything and maybe if I had done so, I may have been more focused.

Sys - I would think things would go better for your W. Please don't base what happened to me and think the same will happen to her. I did keep all my thoughts from my H though too. I just can't share with him that my mind kept wandering to the OM. I know it would hurt him to tell him. I did tell him one night while we were there that I kept having strange thoughts of the OM and had the crazy thought to email him. My H just said I was strange! So I left it at that!

Owl - As Cards said, your W is much further along than me or Cards. It's possible as you said that the OM may cross her mind at times, but I highly doubt it would be what I just experienced.

2BN-

I can imagine it must have felt really odd thinking about OM while you were on vacation. But what exactly were your thoughts about them?? Were they 'missing them' thoughts, or what? You say that you've felt like you're clear of the withdrawl, but sometimes relapses can and do happen some.

Cards-

I thought it was awesome how your H asked you to lunch. I do that occasionally with my wife too. Or, I'll sneak home for lunch, and bring something nice to eat along with me so that we can share it together.

Sys-

It's awesome that you're able to see the progress you've made. Feels nice when you look back at your first posts on LS and see how far things have come, doesn't it?

Hope everyone has a good day today.

Owl- I was only thinking of the last OM on vacation. The 1st OM is not even an issue with my thoughts. I had only one thought of the 1st OM when flying over his city and that was it.

My thoughts of the OM were all over the map. Some were of intimate conversations I had with him, and some were of what if we had met and I had flown to meet him? Others were wishing I could talk to him again. I had seriously considered sending him some type of email when I returned, but then I wasn't sure what I would say?

Was this just a relapse of thoughts that I had when in strong withdrawal? This can't be normal!

As I said earlier, once I returned home, these thoughts subsided and I feel much better now. I am worried somewhat about our next trip in about a month. We are going to visit my parents in my home state, but I feel I need to have a plan so this doesn't happen to me again.

Cards - I thought that was awesome that your H asked you to lunch yesterday. I can't ever do that with my H at lunch because it's impossible for him to get away. I am envious!

I had a question for you guys. Both of you seem to need physical touch from your W's. Would you both say that this is a high EN for you? The reason I ask is that I had a conversation with my H last night regarding touch. It is not a high need of his at all, but it is of mine. I would love it if he would initiate physical touch with me and I had mentioned this to him. He said it is so hard for him to think that way. Do I just give up on wanting him to initiate it? He will sit close and such if I ask, but he never initiates it.

Well, it is a high need of mine, and used to be a high need of my wife's, but that seems to have changed over the years.

All I can suggest would be to continue to remind him that while it might not mean as much to him, it means a lot to you, and it's an awesome way for him to demonstrate his love and affection for you in a way that clearly gets the message accross to you. Again, back to the "The Five Love Languages" kind of thing.

Owl - why do you think it changed for your wife?

Yes, I do remind him and he is good about meeting that need when I ask. It's just never initiated. It is not my highest need, but it's up there.

Why do I think it's no longer a need of hers, or why do I think it's changed?

Simply put, she's just not as physically affectionate as she used to be. For MANY years, we had couples comment about how we'd always hug or kiss or touch each other whenever we were near. But now it just doesn't happen as much, and most all of it is initiated by me now. When she DOES initiate, I always let her know how much I appreciate it.

I'm not sure WHY this has changed.

Owl - Interesting that your W no longer has the need for physical affection when you were both so affectionate for many years. I guess I was wondering if the change was related to the EA, or if the change happened long before the EA?

I guess we all have different needs and we do need to let our spouses know that when those needs are met, they are greatly appreciated.

Same here. As I outlined in my earlier post though, it seems that we both withdrew from each other physically over time. Having the kids makes it harder too -they are all over both of us and when we go out as a family one of us is invariably carrying one or holding one's hand so there isn't any good way for us to hold hands, go arm in arm, whatever. About the only us time we really get is in the evenings after the kids are in bed.

Like you Owl, touch is really important to me. Over the years, I suppressed that need as I stopped getting it, but now I crave it. My W on the other hand seems to either want it or need it less -probably due to her extreme over stimulation from the trolls. Early on she expressed that she had missed it, but now it seemed weird to have me giving it to her. Either way, we are maing stirdes in that area.

2B - I too mant my W to initiate more -I'm doing most of the work. When she does initiate any kind of intimacy though I feel like a million bucks ). Make sure your H knows you want it and how good itmakes you feel when he initiates touch. I think with some practice, he will come around to it.

I'll be going on vacation starting tomorrow -some of that time will be away, some at home, but my contact with the boards will be sporadic at best. So in case I don't get a chance, I wish you all well and good luck for the interim. Hope I have good things to say about my time off.

Sys - Have a great time away with your W and family and I truly hope that everything goes well!

Wow, I would have to think back to when our kids were small and if I needed less physical affection at that time. I never thought about it that way, and yes, I can remember feeling like we never had much alone time back then! I think for me as the kids got older, I seemed to want more physical affection from my H. When we do go out alone, we will hold hands at times and sometimes he does initiate that and I appreciate that.

Maybe I'm not thinking of the times he does initiate physical affection and that there can be a good balance even if I'm the one initiating it. At least he doesn't turn me down!

I think that the change started occurring over the year or so prior to her EA. She'd begun gaming HARD during that time, and staying up all hours playing online. (I personally believe that she'd even had the start of a first EA during this time with someone else...she's not sure at this point if that is the case or not, but willing to accept that it could have been).

She began to ignore me in a big way during that time...and no matter what I did or how I tried to deal with things (mostly badly, in truth) we just grew further and further apart. And it was during that time that the physical touching and such really went downhill.

Now, it's recovered some since the EA ended and all, but nowhere near to the level it was prior to our troubles overall. My thoughts are that part of it might just be a change in our relationship, and that it may simply be something that we'll have to work through.

Sys-

Have a great trip and enjoy your family! I hope that you & your W get some time alone to reconnect.

OK, so at lunch time I stopped and bought some posterboard, markers, streamers, and balloons. The kids have agreed that we're gonna make some welcome home signs for mom, and decorate the living room with balloons and streamers for when she gets back. Not to mention I plan on stopping and having each of us pick up a small thing of flowers for when she gets off the plane.

Top that off with a trip by the custard stand on the way home from the airport, and an arrival at a clean house with nothing for her to do but relax and have fun, it should be a good welcome home.

Gotta love teenagers that don't think doing stuff like this is too sappy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl - Sounds awesome for your W! Coming home to a clean house alone is wonderful and then to top it off with all the extras! I'm sure she will enjoy her welcome home!

2BN-

I don't think your thoughts are "abnormal" - I'm still having thoughts, too. In fact, my last couple days have been hard and I haven't even been on vacation. I did share this with my H today, and my frustration as to why the thoughts keep resurfacing. I just wish I could understand it. Like you, I have to admit that often what I think of are some of the more intimate conversations we had. I'm not exactly sure how to approach that and I don't know what that means. For you it may be related to your physical touch need, but for me I didn't think I had a huge need in that area.

In the last couple of days I have really had to talk myself out of the thoughts - much more than I've had to in a while. I still am attributing some of it to the stress I've been under. Maybe I'm drawing on the EA as something that was a comfort to make myself feel good.

Cards -

Well, I'm glad that my thoughts are not that "abnormal"...but not glad that I had them! I too was frustrated with the fact that I was thinking those thoughts of the OM. I cannot figure it out, but I do know they have really subsided since I've been home and back to my routines.

I can't help but wonder how long these thoughts will keep resurfacing? We can do our best not to dwell on them, but why do they pop in our heads to begin with?

I hope things get better for you in this area, Cards.

HI guys,
Just stopping by to see how u are all doing. I'm in NC now and have deleted pix and stuff from OM. I just need help. Sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy because I think about him all the time. Today I'm feeling angry so thats good at least. But then I cave, and start to miss him! I just can't deal with my feelings anymore! I know this gets easier with time, and I've had a HORRIBLE time doing this. But I"m committed to doing it for myself. I need to move on with MY life, as he has.

I'm trying all the tricks, its hard cuz i sit in front of a pc all day. BUt I"m socializing more w/my coworkers when I start to feel bad. Not good for work, but THIS is more impt right now. I'm also talking to girlfriends when I start to feel lonely and missing him. Anyway, I've made a tiny bit of progress today, and I'll deal with tomorrow, tomorrow!

-win

(((( win ))))

giving you hugs and prayers of support

be strong honey

you deserve your best effort

Pep

Quote

I'm also talking to girlfriends when I start to feel lonely and missing him. Anyway, I've made a tiny bit of progress today, and I'll deal with tomorrow, tomorrow!

Good for you! You are doing the right thing.

When you feel like caving, just take it a few moments at the time. Just get through the next few minutes...and then the next few hours, and then the next day, and the next week.

Focus on it in small goals.

That's what I did. And before you know it, you will go much longer without feeling lonely and wanting to caving. And you will begin to feel better.

I promise.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Well there isn't much to cave to really, he doesn't respond to my emails, but I'm not going to SEND anymore. I have some pride, finally. And I'm not going to his website either. It's the thinking of him i guess. I know this gets better through time. And the missing him terribly that is really, really hard. But it doesn't matter, there's no going back. So I have to go forward. I tell you, if I had known that falling into this EA would mean an end to the friendship, I wouldn't have let it happen. I valued that the most.

-hanging in there
-win

Hi Win - Good to see you over here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The initial weeks of NC were so very hard for me and there's no getting around that. You are doing all the right things and having some girlfriends and co-workers to talk to when you have these feelings should really help you.

Keep focused on one day at a time and then it will not seem so overwhelming. The "thinking about him all the time", "missing him terribly", "feeling angry" and other feelings are very normal at the beginning of NC. This will fade and it does take TIME. As the weeks roll by, your mind will start to clear and those feelings will start to fade and you will find yourself feeling better.

We are here for you Win and keep up the NC!

Win-

Hang in there. The trick is to STICK TO IT. Even when you want to give in, just don't!

Cards/2BN-

I think that it's awesome that you talk with your H's about what you're dealing with. My wife never discussed thoughts of OM much once she got through the worst of the withdrawl. She admitted to having them, and basically had said that they weren't the same kind of thoughts/feelings she had during the EA, but that was about it.

I'm sorry that you're both struggling with this still. I've got to say that I am a little surprised that it's still an issue for you...and I hope that you both can work with your H's to deal with things as needed.

My wife called me last nite for a bit, and it was a great conversation. I think that I balanced it just right, letting her know that she's loved and missed, but didn't come across and 'needy' or 'worried' about anything. It'll will be nice when she's home, and she's talking about planning a similar trip for the BOTH of us next year. We'll just find a way to farm out the kids for a week! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl - Sounds like you did well with your W on the phone. Hope you are doing well with her being gone and that all of your worries are gone. Seems like they are. I'm sure you will be glad when she is home though!

As far as telling my H of my struggles, I didn't tell my H too much. Just a short conversation while on vacation saying that I was having weird thoughts and he wanted to know what they were. That's when I told him I had thoughts of emailing the OM, but I did not share with him the other thoughts I had of the OM. Those were too hard to share and not something I would have shared with him on vacation especially! I'm sure it was hard for your W to reveal exactly what her thoughts were as well.

I have to work on not letting my thoughts dwell there if any thoughts do pop in my head, and I am doing better with that now.

It's been a little over 7 weeks since the last email from the OM and the incident of my H calling him. So, I guess the time frame for me has not been that long and maybe it's not that unusual for these thoughts to pop in my head every now and then.

Hope everyone is having a great day this Thursday morning!

Win -

YOU CAN DO IT!!!! We all know what you're feeling and how hard it is. Like Susan said, one thought at a time - fight if off, fight off the urges. Like giving up smoking or anything, take a deep breath and allow a couple minutes to go by and the urge subsides. You'll have to do that many times a day, I know. But each day will be less and further time between.

YES, you are doing this for YOU! YOU have to move on and you won't be able to with this hanging on to you. Keep posting! We're behind you!

2BN-

Can't say I'm 'over' my worries, but I'm not going to let them control me, or ruin my wife's vacation either. Nor do I want it to ruin her homecoming either.

And seven weeks isn't that long in the scope of things. Looking back, I'm SURE that my wife was probably still dealing with similar thoughts and issues, even though she was committed to rebuilding our marriage then. Just keep doing what you're doing, and remember that it WILL get easier with time.

Owl-

Quote

I've got to say that I am a little surprised that it's still an issue for you

Actually, from what I read, withdrawal can last weeks or months. SAA states that w/d after the A can last the amount of time of the duration of the A or longer, depending on other factors. I think it has to be put in perspective. Using that theory, my EA was 3 months and it's been over about 4. I don't feel in withdrawal, but I DO sometimes have powerful thoughts about the EA. Notice I say about the EA. I tend to focus on the EA experience and not particularly on the person OM. Yes, I think of him, put always recognizing that the reasons for the thoughts are some EN not being met. These strong thoughts come and go, but certainly aren't dictating my life at this point. I don't think it's unusual that some stress or life event or difficulty puts our minds back to a place where we received love and comfort for a time. Just my take on how this is for me.

2BN, does this make sense to you?

Actually Cards, what you say makes perfect sense. And after I sat and thought about timeframes again, I re-posted to 2BN (and should have done the same to you) about how it's understandable given the short timeframe since NC was established. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

Owl - Good to hear that you are not letting your "worries" control you or her homecoming.

Cards - Yes, it does make sense. Your EN was shorter than mine and I feel mine was a bit more complicated given that I had talked to the OM for a good length of time and then didn't stick with NC. I'm sure that those factors will affect my total recovery.

I'm not sure that I just totally focused on the EN though when I have these thoughts. I AM or WAS thinking of the OM and I did think of him as the person. And yes, stress and other life changing events can make us go back to whatever comfort we received from the EA. Maybe for me on my vacation, I was thinking of the OM because of "being away" from home and my mind went to thoughts of "being away" with the OM. I did have some strong thoughts of what it would have been like to meet him while on vacation.

Like you Cards, these thoughts are not dictating my life right now. They did get overwhelming on vacation though and were more than the usual thoughts that I get.

Owl-

No apology necessary, I question these things to myself all the time! When the question arises it just makes me think and answer it. That's good!

2BN-

Quote

Your EN was shorter than mine

Yes, much shorter, which is why I DO get frustrated. I sometimes think that I should be comparatively MUCH further along than I am. I would think your struggles would be much more difficult than mine, and maybe they are/were. I guess it is just hard no matter what!

Quote

I AM or WAS thinking of the OM and I did think of him as the person

When I say I think of my EA and not the OM, understand that is a conscious effort to do so. The thought begins as thinking of him, then when I realize I am doing so I make myself question why I'm having the thoughts, etc.

I am glad that even in a few days you are feeling more back to "normal" (whatever that is!!).

Cards - We both want this to end and it's hard when we get frustrated with our thoughts. Even though yours was shorter, 4 months of time (since NC) is really not that long for thoughts like we are having to totally go away. You and I have made TREMENDOUS PROGRESS!! We should be proud of that and not focus on why these thoughts pop into our heads.

You are doing great with making the effort to change the thoughts of the OM to just the EA. I'm not sure if you remember me saying this awhile back, but the OM told me last year (before he was the OM..) that he had thought about sending the previous OW a birthday card. Now that A had been over for approx. 5 years! Is that unusual??? I don't know, but it does tell me that we may still have strange thoughts of the OM even in years to come. Also, at the time he was telling me this, he was having major struggles in his M. So I can see that stress is a MAJOR factor with going back to thoughts of the OP.

Hi guys,

Do you guys think talking about the OM's keeps it more fresh in your minds? I don't know I go back and forth between wanting to talk to someone about it and just trying to block it all out. It's just so painful. And its not just dealing w/OM, but also our M's which have their own difficulties. I know my OM was an escape from that, the chatting in general.

As for me, I'm just trying to get thru another day of NC. But today I feel so sad. It's like I want to forget him, but I don't want to either. And in my life, there's triggers all over the place. I don't know if thats because it lasted a year or what it is. It's really hard.

-win

2BN-

Yes, we have made much progress, we need to recognize that. As far as, thoughts in the future, I don't think we will ever forget a person/event that had a big impact in our life. I mentioned a while ago about loves that I had before my H. Now, I don't ever think about them at all, but if something takes me back to those times I remember it fondly. It will always be in our memories.

Win, we talked about this a few weeks ago when we were posting about our d-days. I rehashed the whole thing out here and it made me think of all the details and it seemed to pull me back for a while. So, yes, sometimes I think it can be counter-productive to keep talking about it. Focusing on the present day and what we are currently working on is what is probably best. That's not to say that we should squelch our feelings and not vent if we need to, only that I think individually you will have to decide when and how much to say.

As I said above, you won't forget about OM, don't be afraid of losing the memories because you won't. But the NC will give you clarity and ALLOW you to move ahead.

Cards - Very true about past loves...even if we never think of them, they are still there in our memories and something can jog that memory. They just aren't fond thoughts to me anymore.

Win - I think what I am talking about presently about the OM does not affect me and does not draw me back to him. But, I am at a different stage than you. Back at your stage it can be so conflicting because as you said you do go back and forth with wanting to forget and then go back to thinking about the OM. It's a constant battle of the mind!

Sometimes, I needed to talk about it and get it all out and that did help me. I needed to sort through my feelings and talk about it. We all handle it differently and you will have to decide what's best for you. But, it would be best to try to keep your thoughts focused on moving forward. Hard to do, but you have to strive for that even if you regress at times.

As Cards said, NC will allow you to move forward. If I go back and read through my first post, I remember being so mixed up in my feelings just like you are now. You will progress just like Cards amd me IF you keep the NC! That's is the key!

Yeah, I think it does definitely help to talk about it. None of my friends really understand how I could have gotten so caught up in it or fall in love w/someone I never met. Of course it wasn't real love, but there's no other strong word I can think of. At least here, people know what can happen and how intense and strong it can be. So at least I don't feel crazy!!

Its hard when someone had been filling needs I didn't even know I had, to just let it go. And honestly I wouldn't be letting it go, as you probly could tell, except that he has let it go and moved on. They were EN's that havent ever been met or maybe not for 10-15years. Plus for me, H was my first bf so this is only the 2nd sorta serious relationship I've ever had. And I've never broken up with anyone so its all new to me, at my age! OF course I know it wasn't a real relationship, BUT as you guys know the EMOTIONS were real to me. HE was real to me, what I knew of him. ANd I liked what I knew, immensely.

I just have to keep thinking that regardless of M, the R with OM could never continue. we're just in 2 different places, including georgraphically. So there's no point in continuing a painful friendship. I miss it and him terribly, but it has to be done, and it will get better.

-win

Win - I think that's what helped me too...just knowing there were other people here that experienced this and understood my feelings and how to work through them.

I'm sort of like you in a way in that I've never had anyone "break-up" with me. I've had previous relationships before I met my H, but I was always the one to break up and move on, so I never experienced any pain from that. The OM choosing to stay with his W when his W found my e-mails was like a "break-up" to me that I've never experienced before.

The emotions and the person are very real in the EA....what is the "fantasy" is the that it would never be that way in "real life" with the OM. There is no real day to day life with them. We only gained the "good feelings" the OM gave us. Online EA's are very intense in emotions and yes it is hard to let go of something that made you feel good.

It's good that you recognize the need to move on. You CAN do this Win!

Yes, yes, to both of you. I thought I was losing my mind when I first posted here, which was a couple weeks into withdrawal. I was so miserable and I was scared because I had NO clue what was going on with me. To be able to relate to people in the same situation and know what you were dealing with was so important to me.

2B, I like how you described the "realness" of the feelings and the people in the EA and what the fantasy is. All true, and it helps to look at it that way.

Win, I too, have EN's not being met for a long time. I am glad at this stage that I am able to "see" that, AND, more importantly, find tools to fill those needs by the right people and things. Believe it or not, you WILL see this, too. You will be motivated to do this because you will NOT want to go back to the M R you had. This will help you look forward, not backward.

Keep reading your last statement over and over to yourself when you are weak. "There is no point in continuing a painful relationship that will never go anywhere". I am glad you recognize this. This is what we've all had to tell ourselves during withdrawal.

I can tell you that even after what I've personally been through in my situation, and talking with you ladies here, it's STILL hard for me to comprehend how completely an online EA can suck someone in. I have no doubt about the power of what you felt, it's just hard for an outsider to understand how you can get to that point I guess.

I'm NOT knocking any of you...simply saying that you're not likely to find many people who CAN relate to what you've been through unless they've found themselves in similar situations. That's one of the reasons I think that finding a good counselor who can at least TRY to see what you're dealing with is critical.

But...people DO make it through this all the time. THERE IS HOPE!!!

Quote

it's STILL hard for me to comprehend how completely an online EA can suck someone in

I would've never believed it had I not experienced it.....

Yes, it bothers me when people say it was all a fantasy. Of course I know on some level it was. We weren't going to meet, though I had thought about it. BUt I wasn't going to run off with him and have a relationship. And I know that I didn't know him fully and he didn't know me. BUT there was something there, some kind of love. There were very strong feelings and maybe part of it was the missing EN's as well as the excitement of someone new. But it was also the connection I made with him as a person.

So I think there's withdrawal on multiple levels and thats what makes it so hard. And on top of that we have to turn to these M's which have been unfullfilling and troubled for a while at least. In the very beginning I was overwhelmed with dealing with both H and OM at the same time. All my emotions were jumbled up together. And I really needed time to seperate the two. Now I see things much more clearly than I did in the beginning, but I still have the hurt and pain to deal with.

Let me ask you three this question...how well do you feel that you REALLY knew the OM???

I know that my wife really felt that she knew him well...but when I'd ask all kinds of simple questions, she didn't know really any of it. She still insisted for a long time (haven't brought this up in a long time, so not sure what her take would be now) that she knew him very well, knew him enough to truly be in love with him.

But I wonder how that can be the case when you have never met, have never shared ANYTHING more than online conversations and phone calls. And even those were limited to when your family wasn't around. There was so much basic stuff about OM that she didn't know...so how well do you feel that you actually knew your OM? And how do you feel about it NOW that you're coming out of the withdrawl?

Looking back, I STILL feel that I knew the OM quite well. We talked for months and we shared ALOT with each other. We shared not only our deep feelings and thoughts, but also alot of facts about each other.

Owl - I remember you telling us that your W didn't know what kind of car the OM drove. I'm assuming this is the basic type of information that you asked your W and she didn't know the answers. I DID talk to the OM about things like that...cars, vacations, family, where we grew up...etc. There was alot of sharing very similar to if I were meeting someone new in person and got to know him.

Now, I do realize I'm not going to know everything about the OM. And I do realize I do not know what his mannerisms are because I never saw him in person. And I probably really don't know what type of temper he has. Those are the things I do not know, but I felt that I had connected with him as we shared over the many months.

My H too, cannot fathom how I could fall for someone online. Unless it does happen to you, there is no way you can understand. I never thought it was possible, but I can't deny the feelings and the connection that I felt with this OM.

(I want to preface this with ..."I could be full of doodoo, but here's my take)

One of the real difficulties in recovering from an online EA for a couple IS the 'fantasy factor'. The problem is that it is sooo easy for the WS to fill in those 'holes' of knowledge with whatever they'd like to believe. And I truly think that happens.

So it's VERY hard for the BS to even compete with the 'might have beens', the perfection that is imagined but not really experienced. That's what I told my wife during the heighth of her withdrawl..."how can I compete against a perfect fantasy!?!" Reality is ALWAYS a let down from what you PICTURED something is going to be like. ESPECIALLY when you're dealing with people.

Now...on the good news from Owl...THE WIFE IS DUE HOME TOMORROW!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Quote

The problem is that it is sooo easy for the WS to fill in those 'holes' of knowledge with whatever they'd like to believe.

I believe this does happen to a degree because there are always factors we don't know of the the OP. I know that my H felt that he was compared to this guy who I painted a perfect picture of. My H still feels that I see no flaws in this OM.

I did and still do realize that reality would be different with the OP. Sure we may have still connected, but there is still the reality of every day life that we don't know about and that's true for when we married our spouses as well. There were many things we didn't know about our spouses as well until we married them.

I will share something about the 1st OM. I was absolutely positive he was this "perfect person" and just what I needed. I had only talked to him for 2 1/2 months before we met in person. The months that occurred AFTER we met, I found out more about this man and there was so much that I didn't know and DID NOT LIKE about him! He was NOT someone that I could ever want to be with even if I had met him in real life.

So, I can compare that to your W, Owl, and maybe Cards as well, when comparing the length of time of the EA before I met the 1st OM. This was about the same length as your W's EA and Card's EA. I really didn't know this 1st OM as well as I thought I had BEFORE I met him.

Quote

Now...on the good news from Owl...THE WIFE IS DUE HOME TOMORROW!!!

I am sure you are soooo ready for her to return!!

Owl-my 2 cents worth on this-----

Quote

how well do you feel that you REALLY knew the OM???

How well did we know the OM? Well enough to know that he was offering/giving what we needed to make us feel loved. It's really that simple.

How well we REALLY knew everything about them doesn't matter at all. What I mean is, we know it makes no sense at all to fall in love with someone you've never met. But as we've all said over and over, this isn't about logic and sense. It's about powerful emotions and needs and feelings. The brain and logic have NOTHING to do with it. I won't speak for the other women, but I knew all along it wasn't logical and that it didn't make any sense - even as it was happening and I was beginning to have feelings for the OM.

So did I know what kind of toothpaste he uses or what annoying eating habits he has or what unfavorable personality traits he has that I never saw? Nope. Do those things matter when you are getting emotional needs met that haven't been met in a while? Nope, apparently not. What I DID know is how HE MADE ME FEEL and how I MADE HIM FEEL. EMOTIONAL NEEDS being met. While I know INTELLECTUALLY that you have to have the total package in order for deep, true, love, EMOTIONALLY what I received was enough to make myself feel love. Does this all sound crazy? Absolutely. Could only a person with a fragile state of mind succumb to this? Absolutely not, as I don’t consider myself a person with a fragile mental state.

I truly believe that EA's are more dangerous than PA's. Think about it, there is no physical R, so..... there has to be something even MORE important and powerful to keep the R going. Something more powerful than sex to bond people together and create a R.

As far as H competing with this "perfect fantasy"? For me, it's not as though I conjured up a mental image of this perfect-looking guy with perfect traits. Quite frankly, at some point it just didn't matter what he looked like or that I knew there had to be things about him that I wouldn't have liked. All that mattered were that the needs were being met. As long as that was happening the addiciton was there.

Quote

how do you feel about it NOW that you're coming out of the withdrawl?

About the EA? Of course I regret that it happened and I now have the knowledge that it CAN happen. I knew then that it seemed illogical and I know now that it was illogical. Do I think the whole thing sounds somewhat ridiculous? Yes. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened and I had those feelings, though. REAL feelings. I wonder every day how I got “pulled” into it. Today I am much wiser because of what I have learned about myself, my H, and my marriage.

Cards-

Good point with the comment about nothing mattering but having your needs met. I'd guess that's probably the bottom line in all of this. Thanks for your insights.

In my case, I'm really kind of asking rhetorical questions.

Hoping ya'll are having a good day...I'm VERY much looking forward to this weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

I DID know is how HE MADE ME FEEL and how I MADE HIM FEEL. EMOTIONAL NEEDS being met.

True for me as well! However, I yearned for something deeper beyond what I was getting online from the OM. And perhaps that was the fantasy that I painted in my mind. The fantasy of how this perfect combination of emotional needs being met would transfer to a real life with the OM.

I had thought in my head that this could happen, but also knew how illogical it was as well.

Yes, they were very REAL feelings and very comparable to "new love" feelings, but I believe much more intense. I believe I got sucked into it because those "feelings" that started to surface caught me very off guard. Once you start to have these needs met and you feel as if you are the most important person to this OP, it's hard to turn that away.

I also need to add that having experienceed the 1st OM and "knowing" that he had so many flaws that I didn't see at first and didn't like, this 2nd OM "seemed" so perfect to me. He became the "perfect OM" to me. Don't know if that makes sense to anyone? But, I had barely recovered from the first OM when my feelings surfaced for the 2nd OM. I do remember crying about the 1st OM about 2 weeks prior to admitting feelings for the 2nd OM.

I was in a very fragile state of mind at the time, and it made it extremely easy to transfer my feelings to the 2nd OM.

As far as being ridiculous. I guess I don't view it as ridiculous even though to others who haven't experienced it, it may seem so.

Quote

I yearned for something deeper beyond what I was getting online from the OM

Me too, 2BN. After a while I did want a complete R with OM, even though I thought it wasn't to be. I have to wonder that if we had met and found out the realities of each other if it would've just died out. That certainly would've complicated things much more and done a lot more damage in the long run, but maybe the fantasy bubble would've burst and it would've been over. Since we didn't experience a complete R with OM, the question of "what if" is maybe what makes it so hard for some of us to recover and let it completely go.

Quote

I had barely recovered from the first OM when my feelings surfaced for the 2nd OM

You must have been in a very vulnerable state at that time, and wanting/needing to replace 1st OM with someone else to fill the needs. Like you said, I, too, was so taken off guard with what was happening. I remember fighting the feelings and telling myself that OM wasn't good for me for various reasons. Trying to talk myself out of it, I guess. The pull was just too strong and it was too late at some point.

All of this is NOT ridiculous. I meant to say that I think the perception from people having not been here would think it's ridiculous. What is amazing to me is the aftermath of all of this, and what we have been through mentally and emotionally to recover from it.

No Cards...what's amazing is how WELL you all have done in recovering from all of this!!!

Quote

I have to wonder that if we had met and found out the realities of each other if it would've just died out.

I will tell you from experience of meeting the 1st OM, that the intensity of meeting him and then having to go back to our respective lives made things extremely complicated. I wanted more of what I experienced with him and it just was not possible because of the distance between us and because we were married to other people. The hurt and pain after he left (from seeing me) was almost as unbearable as the withdrawal from this 2nd EA. My fantasy bubble only burst with the 1st OM as I started to find out more about him after I met him and everything was back to being online.

Having known that, I had still wanted to meet the 2nd OM. Having known the pain involved, I was still willing to do it again and risk everything. My emotions and feelings were so extreme, that it lead me to it again.

Quote

What is amazing to me is the aftermath of all of this, and what we have been through mentally and emotionally to recover from it.

If we think about how much emotions were involved in this whole thing, yes, it takes alot to recover. We gave so much of our inner selves to these OM and then to have it all taken away. My whole focus on life became this OM during the EA and nothing else mattered in life to me at the time. We are left trying to figure it all out.

Owl -

Thank you for your encouragement and sticking by us in this. It really helps to have your perspective.

I hope you have a great weekend with your W. You did a great job planning her homecoming!

Well, I do hope that I'm helpful for ya'll sometimes. I know that I appreciate getting your perspective on things a lot of times.

It's a hard thing to deal with, for all of us. I can tell you that the pain the BS's feel is no less than what you've gone through...different, to be sure, but just as excrutiating in its own right. But, I can also tell you that marriages DO survive this, and that things CAN and DO get better as you learn to work together in making your marriage what it should be.

Just spoke with my kids. They're putting a final hearty cleaning on the house now, and then are going to sit down and work on some posters for the wife, so that we can have them at the airport to greet her. Tonite, I'll pick up some potpurri to have on when we get home tomorrow, and I'll have the final touches done on the house. Add the flowers in when I pick her up at the airport, and hopefully I'll have her smiling the whole day tomorrow!

Owl - I appreciate your encouragement and perspective on things as well. It helps tremendously to understand things from the BS point of view.

I hope your weekend goes well with your W's return. She should feel like royalty with all that you and the kids have planned!

No major plans for us over the weekend. Just planning on trying to make Father's Day a nice day for my H! Already have gifts bought with the kids and now planning a special dinner for him.

Cards - hope you have a great weekend as well!

Owl-

I do appreciate your pain - your and Sys's posts are helpful to me and I'm so thankful to read about the feelings you have because my H doesn't always express it completely. I NEED to hear what effect my actions had. Even though he says he has no trouble with the EA anymore, I know subconsciously it does affect him.

I often feel guilt when I post about my own struggles and thoughts, especially when I think of you BS's having been sort of innocent victims in this. But, I do think it's helpful for all of us to hear what the other side is thinking and feeling. Both sides have plenty of pain and suffering to deal with.

Well, keep your chin up and remember that things CAN get better...it just requires you both to work at it, and not to give up just because of little setbacks occasionally. Pray when ya need the help and guidance, and you'll be amazed at how things can go for you!

OK folks -a lot has happened in the last few days and I wanted to share with you all before we take off on vacation.

First let me tell you that I had the best Father's Day ever my W and the girls really went out of the way to make it special.

Now that that is out of the way, let me get to the good stuff.

Friday, while eating lunch with my W, her cell rang. She picked it up, looked at the number , then hung it up. I asked her "aren't you going to pick it up?" She said no, I think it was a wrong number. Then she said -I think it was OM. Well we both got really upset. I was furious at him (didn't explode or anything, was just racing on adrenaline), my W was shaken and upset -she was mad at him for trying to call. This was a watershed moment. She told me she was angry at him that he knew not to try to talk to her, she said even if I wasn't there she wouldn't have picked up. she told me that things have been so good in the last few months that she was totally commited to us and that she had moved on from him and that he would need to do the same. she said she was most likely going to write him a letter telling him to respect here wishes and move on. She is going to cancel her EQ1 account, and said she wouldn't be going to her old guild site anymore. Basically, I think she hit a breaking point, and if she had been doing any fence sitting, came down on our side.

Later that day we were cuddling on the couch (in itself a nice thing) and she said I'm really glad your home on vacation and kissed me.

Sicne that moment, we are renewed. She says she loves me, we kiss with meaning and passion. We aren't fixed, but I would say we are in full recovery mode. I can't tell you all how happy I am.

Later that night she thanked me for holding hope for us both in the beginning because she didn't have it then. Ahhg, I'm rambling, but there is just so much to say and I;m amazed at how fast it all cascaded to this point.

As I said, there is a lot to do and so much of my focus has been on getting to this point that now I find I need to change gears a bit and figure out this next phase. Either way we both agreed that the best is ahead of us and the worst behind.

Thank you everyone fo helping me get to this point and I my wish for all of you is that you can get here too -it is wonderful (and scarry all at once).

Sys-

(sigh) I am so happy for you and your W. You have both worked hard on this and it has paid off!!! Your commitment and support to her is exactly what she needed. Great job!

Quote

Later that night she thanked me for holding hope for us both in the beginning because she didn't have it then.

Sys - What an amazing testimony you have and hope for others who are staying committed to their marriage! You and your W have come so far! It's so good to hear that you 2 are doing so well!!

Hope everyone else had a great weekend!

Owl - How did things go with your W's return?

Cards - how was your weekend?

I have a question for anyone...My H feels that whatever I say that the OM told me, that the OM probably lied. Is this how all BS's feel? I'll give you an example. I told my H that the OM told me that his old gf from high school lives in the same town as we do. My H feels it's a lie. I say why would he lie about that???? I just don't get it and I feel that I'm left to try to defend the OM, which I don't want to do. I know this is not all important in the long run of things, but it still bothers me! Any thoughts on how to handle this???

Hi 2BN-

I think our H's want to believe that OM are the scum of the earth. OM went after their wives and are the lowest of low. I believe this is a defense mechanism on our H's part. Of course they don't want to think of OM as a great, honest guy. My H has told me many times that I was taken advantage of and lied to by OM. I think it's what they need to believe in order to cope, and I do understand it. Think about if the situation were reversed - would we really want to know/believe that an OW was a wonderful person? I would feel insecure FOREVER.

But, when H makes those comments it does make me feel defensive, however. That's how I have handled it - told my H that saying those things makes me want to defend OM. For me, I also take it as an attack on me - that I misjudged character and was so weak to fall for OM lines, etc.

Sys - I don't know if you can answer this, but did your W have a particular turning point in her commitment to you? Or was it just a function of time and NC?

Quote

I think our H's want to believe that OM are the scum of the earth.

Cards - A VERY accurate statement! However, it just gets me worked up when my H doesn't believe me. It DOES feel like it's an attack on my character as well. But, there is no point in arguing about it though because to my H, everything about the OM is disgusting to him. These conversations are far and few between these days, but it came up over the weekend and bothered me again.

I have a question, too. My H has been having dreams and nightmares about me and other men. I am sure this is about the EA and how his trust in me has been shaken. He tells me about the dreams and he laughs about them (we both laugh about them!). Anyone else experience this?

Cards - My H has not experienced any dreams like that. But funny you should mention dreams, because I had one last night involving another man. It was not the OM and not any man that I recognize, but I was intimate with this man in my dream. I told my H about the dream this morning and he got concerned that this is what's truly in my heart and that I'm faking it on the outside!

I'm not really sure why I would have such a dream and it is not a reflection of my heart as I tried to explain this to my H today!

Cards - have you had dreams like that?

Well, let me start off with our weekend. Picked her up at the airport on Saturday, flowers in hand. She was very glad to be home, and VERY touched by the posters and balloons and streamers the kids and I put up. So overall, it was a good homecoming, and she did get the chance to rest and relax when she got back.

We had a pretty good weekend overall. I know that I'm showing her too much affection at this point, so I'm working to back down some. It's not even an insecurity thing...I just feel that happy to have her home, and want to show her that. But...I think she's feeling a bit smothered, so time to back off some is my thought.

As far as why your H would feel that way about the OM, 2BN, all I can say is that I think you're right. BS's typically will refuse to believe that there is any good in the OP...because for most of us, we tend to feel like they've done something we'd never consider. That may be unrealistic, but it is how we tend to feel. In my case, the OM did do a few honorable things...but that doesn't mean I trust him, or believe that he's an entirely honorable guy. Let's be blunt, and look at it from the BS's viewpoint for a moment...this person KNEW that our wives were married, but still actively pursued them. Our marriages were nearly destroyed by the actions of that person. (Yes, our wives had their part too, but it's easier for us to forgive someone we love, as opposed to a complete stranger).

Sys-
Sounds AWESOME friend!! It sounds a LOT like the same thing that happened with me. There is one specific day I can remember where she clearly told me that she wanted US...and it will be one of the best days of my life for a LONG time to come. I can well imagine you are feeling the same way now, my friend! I TOLD YOU SO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl - Glad to hear that your weekend went great with your W's return! It's good you recognize when you need to cut back, but I'm sure she enjoyed the welcome home and all that you did!

I understand your point about the OM and how the BS feels, but...let me ask you...if your W told you that her OM knew someone that lived in your town, would you think it was a lie or would you tell your W that is was a lie??? I just don't get it. I can understand the BS feeling that the OM gave certain lines and such, but this didn't make sense to me.

Well, I'm not the same person as your H, so I'm not sure what his reasoning was behind his statement. Personally, I don't believe that EVERYTHING OM told my wife was a lie. Nor do I even feel that everything he told me was a lie either.

My guess is that your H feels that OM would have said or done ANYTHING to get what he wanted...you. And that may be what he's really trying to say.

I know how the dream thing is too...I've had a few odd dreams about OM and my wife a few times too. It's been a while tho, thank God.

I THINK that your H may be talking to you about the whole OM thing to keep showing himself that you ARE willing to talk about it now. Remember, the deception was the real damage maker for most of us...and it's important for us to feel like we are getting the honest responses back from our wives after something like this. Just my guess tho.

Owl - thanks for your take on this. I guess I shouldn't be worried about trying to "prove" the OM to my H. I do however, take it as an attack on me personally at times and that's where I get defensive as well. This piece of information the OM gave me happened LONG before the EA began and I guess that's why it bothers me that my H doesn't believe it. I know my H wants to believe the OM and everything about him is scum and I can understand that.

Quote

but did your W have a particular turning point in her commitment to you? Or was it just a function of time and NC?

Hard to say, I think it was a long time coming and a gradual thing. Ever sine D-Day, I've been showing her how much I love her in words and deeds. I've been sure to be as considerate of her as I can, I've worked hard at being a great Dad and probably most importantly, I made major changes in the behaviors that pushed her away in the first place.

Oddly enough, if I had to put a time on when I saw things turning, and this seems really silly, it was when I made t-shirts showing our EQ charcters together. I don't know if that was it, but it really thrilled her and things began to improve greatly after that. Now if that was it, I don't know what to tell you b/c it's a pretty unique thing to us.

All in all, I htink time and NC were vital but so was my effort.

Quote

My H has been having dreams and nightmares about me and other men. I am sure this is about the EA and how his trust in me has been shaken. He tells me about the dreams and he laughs about them (we both laugh about them!). Anyone else experience this?

Want to hear something spooky? I had dreams about my W leaving me for the OM BEFORE D-day! My subconcious must have known before I did! I had the same dream a few times after ,but not for a longtime. I have to tell you though, those were not dreams, they were nightmares -they would wake me up and I couldn't sleep after them. So my reaction was quite different. I'm guessing your H is more secure than I.

Well, about a week before d-day I had a REALLY freaky dream. I didn't know what all it meant, but it was so wild that I woke up and wrote it down. I'd even talked with my sister about it the next day. What's really (funny) about it is that it scared the hell out of my wife...because SHE knew what it meant!! When we talked about it later, it was the first time they'd seriously given thought to 'getting caught' during the whole thing.

Sys, just wanted to say congrats on the progress. I have to admit, I'm a little jealous of everyone in this thread. Seems like everyone is making progress towards marital recovery. I'm happy for you all, but sad for Win and I. It's good to see people stick with each other and make strides on repairing these important relationships.

I really am glad that things seem to be getting better for you Sys. Think about where you're at now, and compare that to how things were going for you when you and I first started helping each other! Wow!

Bass, I do hope things turn around for you at some point, but I'm out of suggestions for the two of you. Your best hope right now my friend is prayer.

Owl-

You crack me up - smothering your W AND realizing it. I am really glad the homecoming party was a success and she had a good break. Now you can get back to "normal" life.

Bass-

Keep the faith.

Thanks for trying to help, Owl. Not much help anyone can provide for us at this point. I was thinking about this this weekend. It took a lot of courage for Win to stand up and say she was tired of being controlled by me in our relationship, and that she was tired of faking her love when she wasn't feeling it. I think it's now a point of pride thing for her...basically, if she gives even an inch towards coming back into the relationship, then she thinks she is betraying the courage she had to work up to demand more out of her life. She is deathly afraid of taking me back into her heart and then having things go back to the way they were before. Looking at it from her point of view, I can see where that would be terrifying, given how much effort it took her to stir up these issues in the first place.

What she fails to see is that I am ready and willing to change, and to give over the control in favor of having an intimate relationship where we are partners. She flat out refuses to believe that I could change and become that person. I've tried to convince her we have to at least TRY but she has her pride involved, and her fear that she might not be able to stand up for herself again.

MC has made us both realize we each have our flaws...she's a conflict-avoider and I'm a selfish person who doesn't know how to have an intimate connection. Those flaws didn't harm us too much in the past, but she has become more assertive and I seriously lost my way for years in terms of selfish behaviour. It's frustrating, I think I see the way we could fix things, but it's impossible to re-establish intimacy if one party has ruled it out for good.

Bass-

Quote

I think it's now a point of pride thing for her...basically, if she gives even an inch towards coming back into the relationship, then she thinks she is betraying the courage she had to work up to demand more out of her life.

Maybe......but I would tend to think it's more about the lack of intimate connection. I obviously don't know all the ins and outs of your R, but it sounded to me that there was emptiness. This is also what I experienced at home. Both of our faults from way back, but there was hurt and resentment on my part when I perceived my H not being there emotionally for me. I was hurt by that then I put up a wall, and now I am struggling to break down the wall and try to open myself up again. It's hard to do that if the hurt was deep. I have to find the courage to feel safe and trust him again with the emotional intimacy that I didn't have for so long. We went along and not even realizing it, I buried that need. Then the EA, out of the blue, sucks me in. Intimacy and emotional needs that had been squelched for a long time surfaced in a big way just by someone giving me the right kind of attention.

Sometimes I'm not sure what is worse, having been living without those needs being met and not realizing it, or now having experienced the needs being met and not knowing how to duplicate them in my M. It's hard to explain.

I think for us it will take both of us working on it together. I have to work hard to allow the connection to even happen. I still feel myself fighting it for some reason. Maybe Win is fighting it too. Maybe we are having trouble believing we won't be hurt again. Sys and Owl are good examples of working hard to meet the EN's, but maybe in our cases where there is old hurt and resentment we have to work harder. I know that I have to work hard and make the effort to be open. If this sounds like a similar situation for Win, it will be some time before she will be able to do that. She will have to have complete NC for a while before she can even begin to think of working on the M.

Bass, I don't know if this helps at all, but it seemed like Win was in a similar place as me. Her hurt may be deeper and harder to repair, I don't know. Her EA was much longer, so you have to expect that she will be hurting for a while. Just hang in there and work on yourself. You need to do that anyway, for your own good.

It will have to be a combined effort on BOTH of your parts in order to pull together and it will take TIME - maybe lots of time.

Yes, cards you are right on. Especially about finding the En's met and then having them taken away again. But it's more than just that for me. But you are exactly right about the wall.

Great post, Cards. You put your finger on a lot of the things Win has been saying. I really feel for her, because I see the pain she is in over the loss of having these needs met by OM.

What hurts ME is that there's nothing I can do to get in her heart and around the "wall". She has to make an effort to let me in and that's not forthcoming any time soon. With us, we are dealing with a long period where I was neglecting the marriage, and there's tons of resentment there...maybe too much to ever get past. I think that's the "more than just that for me" Win referenced above.

I am setting up more IC for myself, and Win and I will be giving things 30 days before deciding anything. I believe she is in NC now. What's frustrating is that it seems to me she's already made the decision to emotionally disengage and leave, but I know that NC just started a week or so ago and I believe she's still in withdrawal (she denies it). She says she's over OM but always says "don't mention him" when I bring him up now. I'm not giving up hope yet but I have to admit things seem very bleak right now.

Lastly, Cards, I wanted to compliment you on all the progress you have made. You are doing the right things and I know that you will be rewarded with a renewed relationship down the road. Keep at it!

Hi everyone -

Cards you had some great insight there about past hurts. I think you have done so well and progress is happening in your M, as I see it from an outsider. Time seems to be what is needed on all of our M's to help them heal and progress. Some of our M's may require more time than others and it's important for all of us here not to "compare" our M's when ours hasn't healed as fast as the others. The important thing is that we are actively working on our M's and that we WILL see the results of that eventually.

I have to admit to you all that I slipped a bit these last few days. NO I have not made contact with the OM, but I did change my password back on that email account for a few days. I don't know what I was hoping for except to see if maybe the OM still would check it?? I don't think he checked it. I HAVE changed the passward back and I FEEL much better doing so and AM VERY THANKFUL that nothing happened beyond what I did!

I DID feel that I FAILED by doing this! BUT I can be happy that I did not make contact. I had thought about why I did this?? And...I think this is still stemming from all my thoughts of the OM from over vacation.

Hope everyone is doing well today!

2BN-

What were you hoping to see when you changed your password?? You really need to watch these impulses...it's those kinds of things that get you into trouble to begin with!

I'm glad you changed it back...you need to realize that OM is out of your life now...forever. He's in the past, as much as your first crush is. Start focusing on what you've got in your life NOW.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks, 2BN. Yes, impossible to compare timelines for recovering from these things. We all have different R's, different pasts, different viewpoints. All we can do is encourage each other and share things that have helped in our own situation.

I'm glad you didn't make contact. I DO understand,however, that urge to do that. What is it that makes us want to do those things? Not really wanting contact, but rather just wanting to know how they are? I don't understand that. Is it simply not wanting to let it completely go? Not wanting to feel the emptiness of those needs not being met? Not wanting the memory to fade? Any ideas?

I don't know what to tell you, Cards. I know that my wife felt the same way for a long time...not that she wanted to renew the EA, but simply hoping that he was doing ok, etc... But from what I've seen, I believe that this desire does fade over time.

Just do your best to fight thoughts of the OM and keep him in the proper perspective...in the past. Hope that helps.

Is it the FANTASY? We escaped to a fantasy world for a time and it was EASIER than the REAL world? Do we still want to live in the fantasy world and not face reality? Sorry all, I am serious about answering these questions to get myself unstuck.

Owl & Cards -

To answer what I was hoping for?? Not really sure except to know "he is there" and "OK" I guess. There is a way for me to know if he was there in my email...hard to explain, but I thought he was, but not totally sure.

Cards - I think I AM having a hard time of not completely wanting to let go and I can't explain why for myself. Last night I had some time to myself at home and I did go back to that forum and looked at some of the OM's posts from before we had the EA. We were talking during that period of time, however we had not admitted to any feelings for each other. It was strange how I felt reading his posts (last night) about how his marriage was better than ever, but yet I KNEW at the time he was being drawn to me. He would offer advice to others about their M's but yet his heart was not right in his own M.

Was it wrong of me to look there?? I know I am still trying to sort this all out in my head and that's why I looked there, but I should be OVER this by now shouldn't I?

I NEED to realize that this is OVER as Owl stated. He is out of my life and I KNOW I will never go back. But, at the same time, something keeps drawing me back to hold on to it all.

This is a quote from something I read this morning:

Quote

God enables us to carry out His designer plan for our life. When we fall short of accomplishing the goals He has set for us, it is not because the Father failed to provide necessary equipment. Instead, failure is usually the result of a barrier within the heart—an attitude or combination of attitudes that short-circuits our faith. As a result, the flow of God's power is hindered, and we cannot become the person He desires us to be.

My failure in these areas, I feel, is that I am not fully trusting in God for ALL of this. I am holding onto something that I know is hindering me in my M and my relationship with God. I have to surrender it all to HIM, but I struggle deeply with this! My heart doesn't want to let go, and it is a battle of my fleshly desires that are NOT matching up to what "He desires me to be".

Those are my thoughts and what I feel that God is impressing on my heart.

Owl-

Actually that does help to know that others continued to wonder about OM even though marital recovery was under way. It keeps making me feel like I'm going nowhere that I would still entertain those thoughts.

By the way, I read your latest posts for Win & Bass. You have done a great job persevering and trying to help them.

Quote

Do we still want to live in the fantasy world and not face reality?

Cards - I don't think that we want to escape to that fantasy again - at least I don't. I want to progress and heal, but we don't trust enough to let go completely.

I think I posted at the same time as you, so take a look at my post above yours...thanks..

Cards and 2BN-

I don't know if it's a fantasy, or what, but it takes an EFFORT for you to get to the point where you no longer dwell on the OM as much. One word of advice for both of you...start acting like your H can see every single thing you do...and then ask yourself what would happen if he saw what you were doing. Case in point, how will your H feel if/when he knows you went back to that forum, or changed your password, 2BN?? Not well at all is my guess.

I'm thinking about taking the EN checklist to our next MC session and talking with our MC to see what he thinks about us working on it jointly. Bluntly, the reason for that is that I feel like I'm doing all of this to meet my wife's EN's, but she's not doing much to try to meet mine at times. Hopefully we'll be able to talk about it there and see if we can do something to help this out some.

Quote

start acting like your H can see every single thing you do...and then ask yourself what would happen if he saw what you were doing.

I HAVE done this, but then sometimes I just tell myself I don't care and do what I did anyways. I DO KNOW he would not like me looking at that forum, even if it was to look at old posts and trying to figure things out.

Changing the password was eating away at me and I KNEW I could not leave it that way.

Quote

I HAVE done this, but then sometimes I just tell myself I don't care and do what I did anyways.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is as scary as it gets friend. I'd suggest that you really need to talk with your H about this...'cause if you're truly feeling this way at times, he needs to know. That would scare the hell out of me to hear from my wife, and hurt a ton to hear as well. It was exactly THAT that got you to where you're at now...at least that's my thoughts.

Not sure what else to tell you friend. I hope that Cards might have some good insight for you here.

I guess that did sound a bit harsh, but the reality is if I still did what I did and looked and changed my password, then I am not truly considering the feelings of my H am I? I can try to justify it all I want with saying I'm trying to sort out things, but the truth is I am not considering my H in this. And, that is something I cannot admit to him!
It's difficult to tell him that and admit that I still "want to know" about the OM. He just cannot understand it.

I just don't know, 2BN, why it's so hard to let it all go. I would love to wave the magic wand and have it all disappear from my head. I feel that if I just KNEW what was keeping the thoughts coming I could fix it and be done with it. I want that more than anything. And, NO, I definitely do NOT want to be living in that fantasy again. Talk about being out of control.

Wrong to look at OM posts? I don't know about wrong, but probably counter-productive. For me, I think doing something like that would pull me back to some degree. I think that ANYTHING directly related to OM is some kind of contact and that's what we need to stay away from.

As far as trusting in God in this situation, I have struggled here, too. For some reason I have not been able to turn this over to Him. I don't know if it's guilt and shame, or what. I turned to Him for help and strength during the ugly time of that horrible withdrawal, but have not been able to ask for help recently. That would probably be a very good step at this point - to feel forgiven could get us over this hump of letting it go.

Owl, I don't consider myself "dwelling" on OM, it's just that there seem to be periods of time when the thoughts come. It might be on and off for a couple days, then nothing for a few days. It's very unpredictable. You know when it's happening because that's when I post about it. It's not obsessive thinking, but sometimes it just comes.

You said you still spend more time working on your W's EN's than her working on yours? Has it always been this way in your R? Or is this something related to the EA? Or do you just have more needs in the last year since the EA?

2BNORMAL WROTE:
“Was it wrong of me to look there?? I know I am still trying to sort this all out in my head and that's why I looked there, but I should be OVER this by now shouldn't I?”

Hi. I think I’ve posted to you before, a long time ago. Just wanted to pop back in with the voice of experience as a FWS to say that every time you look at the old forum, posts, or e-mails, it is the same as having contact with OM. You take yourself back to day one of recovery, or awfully close to that, anyway. That is why you are having trouble being “over this by now!”

You also wrote: “My failure in these areas, I feel, is that I am not fully trusting in God for ALL of this. I am holding onto something that I know is hindering me in my M and my relationship with God. I have to surrender it all to HIM, but I struggle deeply with this! My heart doesn't want to let go, “

Early after my d-day, I read a book by Joyce Meyer called “The Battle Belongs to the Lord,” where she pointed out that God can’t take something away from us that we won’t let go of! It was a turning point in my recovery, although it still took me awhile to become disciplined enough to protect myself by NOT reviewing anything that reminded me of the A or OM.

I know it’s hard to let go, and I know the desperation to try to “sort this all out,” but what I learned is that it quite possibly will never all be sorted out. Forgetting OM, forgiving ourselves, concentrating on our H’s and our M’s and the PRESENT is the only way to move on and to be free. It takes time, discipline, and determination.

Once I heard an evangelist say about an addiction that the only way to stop is TO STOP. It sounded impersonal and harsh at the time, but sometimes I’ve found it to be simply true. Sometimes we just have to STOP obsessive behavior through sheer willpower. God can and will help us, but only if we let go. He won’t force us to do anything.

One last point. You also wrote: "It's difficult to tell him that and admit that I still "want to know" about the OM. He just cannot understand it."

I'm thinking you realize that there is no reason your H should or could be able to understand your wanting to know about the OM. It really doesn't make sense. It's irrational for us to keep wondering about the OM.

At some point, we have to stop being selfish about our own feelings, and start looking at OM from our H's point of view, and ONLY consider our H's feelings about OM, IF we want our M's to recover.

Keep on trustin’ – God bless.

Rose

Quote

I turned to Him for help and strength during the ugly time of that horrible withdrawal, but have not been able to ask for help recently. That would probably be a very good step at this point - to feel forgiven could get us over this hump of letting it go.

Cards - I have done exactly what you have done. I sought after God during the horrible time of withdrawal, but lately it's been tough. There is no "feeling" of forgiveness, Cards. We HAVE to trust God and KNOW that we are forgiven by HIS WORD. This I believe is my biggest struggle. To know that I AM truly forgiven even though I did such a horrible thing and not hang on to any of it. God IS in control as much as we often forget this!

Quote

I can try to justify it all I want with saying I'm trying to sort out things, but the truth is I am not considering my H in this

WHY IS THIS? This is exactly why I'm trying to answer these questions!!! How to make the jump and trust H with the EN's. This is the same problem for me, 2B, Win and all the others in these EA's. How to pull back out of that something that we were pulled into. I believe the MB principals are sound - have the BS start meeting the needs, but there has to be something MORE that we can do to facilitate the process. The fog is over, the withdrawal is basically over, we WANT to want our M & H, but the thoughts keep with us. It's so frustrating when you WANT so badly to move forward, but you are stopped and can't figure out why. Sorry for venting.

Rose - Thank you for your insight. It's been awhile since you've posted on this thread.

Quote

God can’t take something away from us that we won’t let go of!

This is so very true! I have to let go first before God can work through me. There is a barrier that I have set up in my heart that I won't release. I will try to take a look at the book you mentioned.

I do realize that I'm still dealing with the addiction. The addiction of wanting to know, and wanting to look back. And you are right, the only way to stop and addiction is to simply STOP!

Thank you for your encouragement!

"How to make the jump and trust H with the EN's"

We have to stop worrying as much about our own EN's and start concentrating on our H's EN's. That's a good place to begin the transition from attachment to OM back to our H's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God bless,

Rose

Thank you Rose. The voice of experience is what we needed here, right NOW!! Thank you.

2BNormal and Cards -

I know it is a hard struggle to stop being tempted to turn to the comforting feelings from the A. I don't know how much I might be able to help, but if you ever have any questions, just ask!

Rose

Cards-

Looking back, my wife used to do a lot to meet my EN's for many years after we were married. And I did the same...we've always had a two way relationship when it came to that. But it seems to me that over the last several years it's gotten more and more one sided on my part...that all the onus to keep things going was on me. She's said several times that she's felt that the 'courting' should be done by the man, that the man should be the one who made the woman feel special. And I've done that.

But given all the stress of dealing with my job, my kids, and everything else, I'm starting to feel a bit taken for granted myself now. Now let me make this clear...I'm NOT going to look anywhere else to have any kind of needs met...LOL!!!

But I am going to try to bring up how we can improve meeting each other's needs.

I think that Rose has a VERY good point when it comes to EN's...instead of worrying about having your OWN EN's met, start concentrating on fulfilling or EXCEEDING your H's EN's. I've noticed that I'm usually much more willing to fulfill my wife's needs when she's doing the same for mine. Perhaps that might be key in helping the both of you.

At any rate, I'm kind of rambling on. I had to drop our vehicle off at the house so that Mrs. Owl could do some running, and there was a major bruhaha going on about household chores and such. It's frustrating, I try my best to do things to give her a good birthday, but it feels like I'm the ONLY one trying to do so.

Hope everyone is doing well this morning.

Quote

instead of worrying about having your OWN EN's met, start concentrating on fulfilling or EXCEEDING your H's EN's.

I wish I KNEW what needs my H had! He really can't determine that he needs anything specific.

I went to the Christian Bookstore last night and browsed a bit. I looked at the book that Rose mentioned, but I kept going back to a book called Breaking Free by Beth Moore and purchased it and started to read it last night.

Here is a synopsis of the book:

Quote

In Breaking Free, best-selling author and popular Bible teacher Beth Moore takes you on a journey to discovering true spiritual freedom by identifying spiritual strongholds and removing all obstacles that hinder you from enjoying the benefits of a relationship with God. Learn to make the freedom in Christ a daily reality through the truth of God's Word...truth that will set us free.

After what was talked about yesterday, I really I need to put my focus totally on God and quit looking back. This will take alot of work and determination on my part. I believe this will be the key my healing.

I also looked at a book called Every Woman's Battle. I wanted to get that as well, but I didn't want to get 2 books at once. Cards - I think this book is a great book to understand about how our EA's happened. It had alot of great insight. Have you heard of it?

Hope everyone is doing well today.

2B -

I forgot that I have that book, but I haven't finished reading it. Beth Moore also wrote "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things," which was very helpful to me right after d-day.

Have a good day.

Rose

Hi Rose - I was specifically looking for the book "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things" last night. It had been recommended to me LONG ago, but the bookstore didn't have it. I believe this book will be helpful to me, but I do also want to read "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things" as well. I just NEEDED to start with something to get my focus right!

I'm reading Joyce Meyer's "Battlefield of the Mind" right now...that's pretty good as well, 2BN.

Owl - Yes I did look at that book last night. Looked good. So many books to choose from!

Beth Moore has some online Bible studies as well that I was looking into. But...want to finish one thing at a time!

Makes sense. I know that my wife was reading a book on 'forgiving yourself' a while back. She's really gotten back into reading the bible and in doing a lot of devotionals herself lately.

The one thing you DO need to remember in all of this is the bottom line...God DOES forgive you of the sins you truly repent and confess. If you've truly repented (which means you regret and will not do it again), then the next step is just letting go of the guilt you've got associated with it. Not easy, but something you have to do at some point.

Owl -
Did you find that your W really got back into reading the Bible and devotionals right after D-Day and then had a slump when things started to get better between the 2 of you? You had mentioned that she's really gotten back into her Bible reading, so I was wondering if she had a slump time like I have experienced and Cards seemed to as well?

Although, it does seem that we reach out to God when we are in are greatest need, doesn't it? Like when I was in horrible withdrawals, I felt all I had to rely upon was God to carry me through. So easy to slip back into the wrong habits when things start to seem better.

Well, she actually admitted that she'd really lost her way with God during the affair. For a while, she was convinced that God had put OM in her life for a reason, but once the truth came out and she started working through everything, she wasn't ready to 'face Him'. She knew that she'd really made a mistake, and felt horribly guilty about what had happened.

But once she started getting through the withdrawl, and we began re-building, and she saw how heavily I was leaning on Him, it helped her recover her faith.

At this point, she's heavily into devotions and such...more so than the rest of us in truth. I think it's great, but I just can't keep up with her pace...LOL.

Hope things are going well for you friend!

Owl-

Well, I think for all Christians that go through an A, you do lose your way with God. You know He's still there, but you start ignoring all the truths you so adamently believed in before the A. It was all so very difficult for me to sit in church. So many times I didn't want to go, but I had to keep up "appearances".

There is a time as well, that you aren't ready to face God. At least for me there was. Yesterday I had mentioned that LONG ago someone had recommended the book "Why Godly People Do Ungodly Things". This book was recommended to me by someone when I was trying to let go of the 1st OM. I was talking to a woman on that forum at the time who had gone through a similar experience and she recommended the book as it had helped her. I actually went to the bookstore to buy the book, but as I flipped through the pages of the book and read some of it, I knew I was not ready to face what I would read. So I put it back and didn't buy it! If I had read that book then, maybe I would have never gone as far as I did with the 2nd OM, but I can't go back and change history.

2BN-

I can imagine going to church at that time would be pretty tough.

As far as where you're at now, I'd just suggest keep praying, and working hard on fixing what God has given you...your marriage to your husband.

I'll tell you what...the strain that teenagers can put on a marriage is incredible. It seems like almost all of the stress we're dealing with anymore centers around dealing with our kids...not so much with each other. But it all adds up to stress at home sometimes, so I'm REALLY looking forward to when the kids start leaving the house!

TEENAGERS!!! You are right about that! Incredible strain, and we have been dealing with that alot lately ourselves. I think it gets us ready to WANT them out of the house! LOL!
I am definately looking forward to the days of a quiet, stress free household!

Yes and I NEED to keep on with working hard at my marriage on top of this. God will provide the way!

Well, the good news for me is that it's only a few more years for all of them to be out...and I'm seriously expecting the oldest two to be moving out sometime within the next six months.

I REALLY hope that reduces some of our stress...this has just been too much lately.

On a good note, while it was a bummer that we had an issue with our daughter, last nite it was my wife who took up for me against our daughter. Normally, I'm defending my wife...and on the occasions when it's me against the kids, I'm my own. But last nite my wife went off on our daughter when she started bad mouthing me, and it was nice to have really felt like we were both on the same side.

I am really looking forward to a time when our lives when we can focus all of our energy on each other instead of 90% of our energy being focused on our kids.

Owl -
Are your 2 oldest going away to college?

Our oldest will be attending a local community college for at least the first year. 3 more years until our youngest graduates and then, hopefully, we will have a quiet house then!

All in time though...we are in this for a season and we need to do the best we can for them. Frustrating at times for sure, but hopefully we will see the fruit of our efforts in years to come!

Well, they're going to both work to attend the local community college here, but I'm not sure that they've worked through the logistics as well as they need to. The younger ones are a few years from graduating too, so we're in a similar state with where our kids are at I think.

Cards- You still out there? Haven't seen you in a few days.

Hi all,

I'm still here, thanks for asking. I've had a really rough couple of work days so I haven't been able to stay up with everyone. The stress combined with not sleeping well (or enough) is really doing a number on me. I HATE it when I feel this way. My H is stressed out too, right now, so we both are kind of going our separate ways in order to get through the days. Hopefully this weekend we can re-focus and chill out a bit.

Sorry you're having a rough time, Cards. I hope you have a good weekend, and really hope that you and your husband can find a way to get some 'you' time together!

Hi all - haven't been able to get on the internet today because it was down at work. It was actually nice for a change! 6 months ago, I would have been a basket case with no internet....but today a different story!

Cards - I had been thinking of you as well. I hope things get better for you over the weekend! Hope you and your H get some moments to re-connect!

Have a great weekend all! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope everyone had a great weekend. Sys, I don't remember when you were due back, but I hope that your trip with your wife went well my friend.

Hi all!

Back from what I am officially declaring my best vacation ever!

This time is exactly what my W and I needed and the timing of events couldn't have been better. As I said in my last post, as of the friday before we left, my W had really begun to reach out to me and with the unfortunate call from the OM, her resolve to be with me was only strengthened and made clear to me.

We had a long car ride to get where we were going, we had the kids, so there wasn't any deep talks, but a few miles in, she reached out and took my hand. We did that a lot. She was so affectionate and loving towards me I was giddy. There was a small amount of nagging paranoia in my mind -completely irrational thinking but that's just the old paranoia lingering (know what I mean Owl?).

Anyway, long story short, we are back together for the long haul. We spent the vacation kissing, hugging, holding hands and most importantly, talking and being with each other.

The OM tried calling our house on the first day of our vacation (pretty ballsy given he previously would only call her cell -wondering if today being Tuesday, he'll try again). My W found this out and told me as we waited for a table at our favorite restaurant (nice having family to baby sit all week).

Every time he calls, it seems her resolve is strengthened now so I say bring it on, keep calling dude. Anyway, she is going to write hm and tell him to move on and leave us alone. She is cancelling the EQ1 account and she is done with her former guild forums. So the ties have been or will be shortly severed entierely and most importantly in her heart and mind it's done and I am the one she is with.

We talked a lot about how she came to this point. In a nutshell, she said with time she had hardened against the OM, she was able to see that she had a really great life here with me and our kids. I asked what had let her come to all of this and she told me over the last month she had been really very happy and that she found herself really looking forward to our vacation. She said she realized that a big part of that was that she was looking forward to spending time with me. I guess that flipped the switch from trying to doing. For those looking for answers, she told me the main factor for her was time (5 months since d-day for us, 3 months since NC began). She also credited the fact that we had a really stong foundation (a very deep friendship and the kids) so putting things back together was not such a difficult thing once what I assume is the fog lifted comletely.

One frustrating but delicious aspect of this was that we were on vacation in a small house with my mother and grandmother -i.e no privacy -at all. My W had been saying for some time that she wasn't ready for a physical relationship to resume b/c although she was working on us, she didn't want to make any promises she couldn't keep. Well, it seems that the promise was there now in theory, but not practice and due to a good bit of self-conciousness and propriety, wasn't going to be fullfilled during that week. So, here we are, more or less back on track -I'm giddy with happiness and unbelievabably turned on by her. She was radiant and she loved me -what can I say? So we kissed -a lot. And cuddled and whatever else we could do.

Last night we got home. We made love for the first time in 5 months and it was glorious. We lay in other each others arms weeping with joy. I've never been so happy. Even the sex is better now ).

If the last 5 months were a nightmare -this is a dream come true.

Now this all begs a question: What do I do from here? We still need to work on us -there is still healing to do, trust to be regained, normalcy to return. Does this forum help? Owl, I know you still struggle, I assume this is why you are here. But does this forum perpetuate the stuggle or help, or both? I know that in the recent past, some of the posts here have increased my paranoia. For as much good as much of what is said here there is also a certain amount of unintentional harm I think.

Our Mc in his usual, folksy way said our relationship needed to be built like a car -small rear view mirror and a big windshield -we should be spending far more time looking forward than back.

I will cut back here a bit for now and just enjoy the renewal of my relationship with my W. I'll be here, but unless things get tough, I think I'll still avoid too much that might rain on my parade for now.

I thank all of you from the bottom of my heart for all the support and help you have been to me. I hope I can return the favor in some small way. My wish for all of you is the happiness my W and I have found. I hope our example can be a light for all of you struggling in the dark as I did for so long. It can happen, but it takes work and resolve and hope.

Sys - Welcome back! So good to hear that you and your W had a wonderful vacation and that you both have progressed and are doing so very well! It certainly sounds like you both have found your "love" for each other that has been a struggle for the past months.

Quote

Now this all begs a question: What do I do from here? We still need to work on us -there is still healing to do, trust to be regained, normalcy to return. Does this forum help?

I think you have answered your own question...you and your W are in a great place and you do feel a certain sense of paranoia at times when you come on this site. I believe you can rest in the assurance that your W definately is in your M for the long haul! Sure, there will be bumps and struggles along the way, but you have that confidence now in knowing where your W stands and that is for your marriage!

Maybe there will be times where you have questions, and those of us that are still here will be here to help and support in any way possible.

I myself haven't been able to be on here for a few days due to our internet being down at work. I have found it refreshing in some ways to take a break from this forum, so I can understand where you are coming from.

Hope everyone else is doing well! Cards - are you still there? Hope these last few days have been better for you than last week.

Sys-

I'm seriously glad for you bro!!! It's awesome to see things finally working out for you!!!

I remember how wonderful it felt when we began reconciling...I was giddy over the whole thing too! I know what an awesome feeling that is.

The paranoia is going to be one of the harder things for you to deal with now...at least it was for me for a good while. And honestly, it still tends to crop up occasionally (like when my W took her trip this month). But if you can just keep a handle on it, it will fade over time.

My one personal suggestion for you...while she's in this mood, it's a good time for you to talk about YOUR EN's in this marriage. I don't think I did a very good job at making it clear what I needed...and I think that's why my wife still isn't as good about working to meet my needs as I am about meeting hers. So give that some thought bro...see if perhaps you might be able to work this into your MC sessions so that you BOTH work out with a happier marriage than ever!

Again, GRATZ!!!!

Owl - I have a question.

Over the weekend, I had a BAD trigger that was hard for me to overcome one night. I was feeling bad inside and my H could tell. He asked me what was up and I told him. Then, he says to me..."you are still hooked on this guy aren't you?" I didn't know how to answer because at the moment, the trigger was so great that it was truly bothering me that I was thinking "thoughts" of the OM. My H says he would prefer for me to keep these things inside of me from now on. This hasn't happened for awhile, but when it does, I have this need to "get it out" and tell my H.

Is it fair of my H to ask me to hold all of this in? I really wanted to talk about it with him so he could help me, but if I have to bottle it all up inside, it really makes it tough for me to deal with. I just don't know how to handle this in the future?

Well, I'm not your H, nor am I a real counselor, so I can't say what's 'fair' or not.

But, here's what I would tell your H if I were you...

"I want to share these things with you. NOT sharing them with you, not communicating with you, not being able to talk with you about my feelings and what was going on in my life is what lead to where we're at now. I think that it's important that we find a way to communicate these things with each other...and not with anyone else. It was my mistake to share these thoughts and feelings with someone else, and that is what lead to the EA's...I don't want either of us to find ourselves in that situation ever again.

So I think it's important that you and I find a way to be able to communicate about these things without hurting each other."

Again, just my thoughts. And if you can find a GOOD counselor, that kind of forum is a good place for the two of you to work these kinds of communications tactics out. And it sounds to me like he's got a bit of 'growing up' to do...part of the work in a marriage is learning to deal with the tough things.

Thanks Owl. It's tough for me to bring up when I have a trigger and "thoughts" about the OM. I end up trying to communicate that something is bothering me to my H by my body language so that he will come out and ask me. I really need to find a better way to communicate to him when this happens. I want him to listen to me and be there to help me through it.

I can certainly understand that it would bother my H that I was thinking of the OM though. Our night was going along fine as we were at some friend's house for the evening. Then - boom - the trigger hit me and I let it ruin my evening for myself. It was only when we returned home that I tried to communicate this to my H.

As far as MC, I don't feel that my H wants to go back. I don't see it happening. I had mentioned IC for me, but don't think he wants to be a part of MC again.

It's funny how we seem to have opposite problems. In my case, the affair is long over, and it's really not the affair that I'm still dealing with anymore...it's the after-affects that I personally have gone through. I know my wife's not in contact with OM, and that the affair is long dead and gone in her mind. Now it's more issues of self-worth, and in having my own EN's met.

Right now, I'm the only one who's 'dealing' with anything. And in my case, my wife cannot understand any of what I've gone through...because she's not been through it herself, and bluntly because she doesn't want to think about any of this due to the guilt she feels over the whole thing.

I am considering going to IC myself at this point, because the problems really aren't 'ours'...they're mine. We'll see how things pan out I guess.

Sys - Congrats on a great vacation. Good to hear at least one of these things is working out positively. ;-)

And 2B, I gotta back Owl up on his response. Either you talk about these things with H and have emotional intimacy, or you keep them inside, where they may boil over with bad results in the future. It's on you to sit him down and explain this to him. Trust me, even if he doesn't want to hear it, he will appreciate your emotional honesty...it's much better to have the conflict and work it out rather than hide it.

Quote

bluntly because she doesn't want to think about any of this due to the guilt she feels over the whole thing.

If you are dealing with "things", it's not fair for your W to just "not think about it" and I feel that's where I'm at as well. Yes, sometimes these issues are tough. And yes, it is tough for my H to hear that something triggered some thoughts about the OM, but our spouses need to help us through this I believe. I just can't be on my own when I'm struggling. That makes it so much worse for me!

Quote

or you keep them inside, where they may boil over with bad results in the future.

You are right Bass - I will boil over inside if I keep it bottled up. I want to work through the issues when I have struggles and who better to work through them with but my H?!

2BN,

I could not resist responding to your post here. You said

Quote

It's tough for me to bring up when I have a trigger and "thoughts" about the OM.

I can believe this is true,but you are making a huge mistake here. If you wait until you are triggered to tell your H about things you are an emotional state and he has to deal with his own emotions as well. You need to talk to him about triggers BEFORE they happen and reach an understanding about how to handle them. He also needs reassurance from you concerning these triggers.

Quote

I end up trying to communicate that something is bothering me to my H by my body language so that he will come out and ask me.

Pardon my French, but why should he have to read your body language so that he can ask you about something that is bothering you but will stab him in the heart? Does this make ANY sense? Not to me. If you want to communicate put down the tomtom's, the smoke signals, the encrypted letters and TELL the man what you need from him and why. But as I said before set the stage for these discussions LONG before you are triggered by something.

Quote

I really need to find a better way to communicate to him when this happens. I want him to listen to me and be there to help me through it.

Yes you do, but while you are at it you need to find a better way to help him deal with this as well. You are using him to do the core dump of your emotions for ANOTHER man, and you expect him to help you. But 2BN you are asking a huge amount from him and you are spending love bank dollars at a huge rate. What are you doing to put deposits back into his back account? Please think about this.

Quote

I can certainly understand that it would bother my H that I was thinking of the OM though.

Sadly, I can understand why he is bothered and I am not married to you, what you need to develop is some empathy so that you can FEEL what he feels when he has to comfort you about you losing ANOTHER man. I truely don't think you are out of the fog enough to understand what this is costing him internally. His refusal to talk is his way of trying to save his love for you and you don't seem to understand that.

Quote

Our night was going along fine as we were at some friend's house for the evening. Then - boom - the trigger hit me and I let it ruin my evening for myself. It was only when we returned home that I tried to communicate this to my H.

So it is all about you right? Your H just had a nice evening ruined because you tried to communicate the trigger at that point. It would have been much better to have discussed this the next day after a nights sleep. Your H cannot be held responsible for the triggers you get from your A, and yet you are in fact doing just that. He is the one you expect to solve this problem. Please stop and think about this for a moment. I don't think you are intentionally punishing him, but your attitude about his response to your triggers suggests that you want him to feel the pain YOU feel from losing a man that stole something from your H. Does this make sense? If it does not, and it should not, please sit down and think about it and then set down with your H and talk about it when there are NO triggers.

Quote

As far as MC, I don't feel that my H wants to go back. I don't see it happening. I had mentioned IC for me, but don't think he wants to be a part of MC again.

From his point of view has MC helped? If he is dealing with your triggers regularly, if nice evening are being ruined by these triggers, then it would not be much of a leap to expect that he feels MC has NOT helped his marriage that much. If it has helped, YOU need to show him how and where it has. You need to show him where the win has come from going to MC.

2BN, you have had two affairs on this man. You are expecting him to solve your emotional issues and he should help, but you are expecting him to do it on a moments notice with no preparation, no plan, and no help from you. Somehow you expect him to be so strong that loving you through two affairs has not weakened him, has not caused him to question his own intellegence, has not moved his self-esteem to a level that makes him feel he has little to offer, but that he is still strong enough emotionally to handle YOUR triggers about another man that replaced him in your heart.

2BN, you really need to sit down and think about this. I am sure he will help you, but you need to help him a lot more than it seems you are. You cannot expect him to be strong enough to handle your triggers in real time without a plan on the part of both of you, and without some strong support from you. Has it occurred to you, that each of YOUR triggers is a huge trigger for him as well?

Please please think about this. If ever there was a time for POJA, and the development of a plan, NOW is the time.

God Bless,

JL

Quote

You cannot expect him to be strong enough to handle your triggers in real time without a plan on the part of both of you, and without some strong support from you. Has it occurred to you, that each of YOUR triggers is a huge trigger for him as well?

JL - you have left me much to think about. Especially about how the triggers affect my H. And there is much to think about how I have been communicating to him. It's like I'm scared to bring it up to him...so therefore, no planning on how to deal with this ahead of time and no planning on HOW to communicate my needs and struggles when this happens. I do NEED help with that!

Somebody PLEASE explain what POJA stands for???? HAVE NO CLUE?!

2BN,

POJA, stands for the Policy of Joint Agreement. It is detailed in the articles on this site and it is a negotiating tool. What you two need to negotiate is how to hand your triggers.

Let me offer you some thoughts.

1. You will and do have triggers, so there is little to discuss about these except how to handle them.

2. You seem to feel better if you discuss the triggers with your H. Fine, what do you expect of your H when he hears that you are thinking about the OM, and missing something that you and OM did? Whatever it is you two need to agree on this (a win-win) which is what the POJA is about.

3. How do you expect to help him when he has had to deal with your triggers? What does he need to hear from you? What do you need to do? Do you realize how it hurts him? Figure this out and talk with him about it.

4. How are you helping your H? Do you know what he needs from you? Do you know how to comfort him AFTER he has comforted you in dealing with the triggers?

5. Do you have a plan or an approach to avoid triggers, minimize triggers, or begin to ignore triggers? For example say you and OM had a hot and steamy meeting at a hotel that you and your H pass regularly or even have to go to for functions. One strategy that has been used here is to "take back" this hotel, but checking into it and replacing the memories of you and OM with what you and your H might do, this might require some rather "outrageous" acts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> but the idea is you replace trigger memories with memories of you and your H. Talk with Your H about this.

6. Talk with Your H about what triggers you, and then develop plans over come them, perhaps even clue words to suggest that one is coming on and what he needs to do. It can be just a simple word and his response can be a simple as leaning over to tell you he loves you, or touches you in some way. These things become very very powerful cues and yet they are so simple.

7. Sometimes triggers are NOT triggers. This is often missed. Some time you might be out with your H and you might feel a little down. Now eventually this down feeling could lead you to thinking of OM, but if your H is allowed to know you are a bit down, react to that before it becomes an OM trigger. AND you just may have to learn to do the same for your H, because I can tell you for sure he has movies playing in his head about what you have done and said with your OM's.

You do this in the light of day. You do it when you are feeling safe and good. You do it with the idea of making both of your lives better, and emotionally stronger. You might also want to do this while acknowledging what it has and does take out of your H to deal with these things and that you respect and value him for doing these things.

You see 2BN, one of the things that has bothered me about this whole thread is that no one seems to appreiate that dealing with the triggers togehter is an OPPORTUNITY to build a better marriage, with deeper understanding, more empathy, better communications, and finally TRUST.

You are taking your opportunity and turning it into something that may kill your H's love for you. It is time you looked at this whole thing from the other end of the telescope and you will see your H is not further away and small but much closer than you realize.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

2B -

With all due respect to Just Learning, I thought I'd submit my experience on this subject.

I understand the difficulty you have in dealing with triggers by yourself, but if your H doesn’t want to know about it, I’m thinking it’s better not to mention it. My H and I are 3 years down the road, but even since very early on, my H also hasn’t wanted unsolicited information from me, and it was easy to see after awhile that my bringing things up about FOM or the A hurt my H badly and made everything worse for both of us.

There has to be a way you can deal with your pain on your own. If you need to talk to someone, get alone and talk to God, or find a girlfriend (friends get tired of hearing about it, too, though), or write your feelings down in a journal to tear up and throw away if your H doesn’t want to see it or know about it.

If you’re having trouble not showing your emotions, you can tell your H that you need some alone time. If he wants to know what it’s about, let him ask. He will probably suspect what’s happening, and if he feels up to talking about it, he can let you know.

I don’t think you should have secrets from each other, but if he’s not able to hear about some things, please consider you H’s feelings about this to be more important than your own. Maybe there will be a time later on that he will be more ready or willing to discuss your pain, maybe not, just don’t force him to hear things that he cannot stand to hear right now.

Just another point of view.

God bless,

Rose

As a BS myself, I can see both sides of this issue. I can agree that it's very important to meet BOTH of their needs as much as possible...and I feel that communication is KEY to everything in repairing a marriage after infidelity.

Again, this is exactly the kind of reason why I suggest finding a GOOD, pro-marriage MC to help work through stuff like this.

Rose,

With all due respect, I like what you said alot. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> But, then I usually do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> That is the point, they must decide how to handle this in a way that helps them both.

God Bless,

JL

"Rose, With all due respect, I like what you said alot. But, then I usually do."

Thanks, JL! Recovery has been such a rough road for all of us. It's good to have your well-thought-out posts and sound voice of reason on the board. Especially if you agree with me! LOL.

God bless,

Rose

Sys-

I am so happy for you and your W. What a wonderful story of recovery and renewed love. I hope for that for every person on this site! I think we have all questioned at one time or another times when it seems counter-productive to keep posting/reading. It's an individual decision which I believe we can sense when we need to take a break. I hope you will keep up with us and let us know how you are doing from time to time.

2BN, I think Rose, Owl, and JL certainly covered all aspects of the trigger idea and sharing it with H. I'd have to agree that there is somewhat of a fine line in how far to go with expecting our H's to hear every little detail. Some compassion for their feelings has to be in place. I understand the need to get it out because it is helpful for our healing, but as was suggested, a friend, or other 3rd party may be the way to go. In your case when it happened and the need to express it was really strong, maybe just waiting it out until the feelings pass is best.

Quote

Do you have a plan or an approach to avoid triggers, minimize triggers, or begin to ignore triggers

JL - I do not have a plan. I don't experience triggers as often anymore and this last one came unexpectantly (I guess they all do). I never met this OM, so all my triggers are based on conversations we had. This last trigger was really silly. The OM has a goatee and the H of the couple we are friends with had just recently grown a goatee. Everyone that night was making a big deal about it and there was a great focus of attention on it. Now, I don't understand why it left me with overwhelming thoughts of the OM, but it did. How can I prepare for that??? That was not something I could have altogether avoided.

And yes, I should have let it pass until the next day, but sometimes my feelings overwhelm me and I deal with them incorrectly. And because I get overwhelmed, I expected my H to help me get through it.

From what all you are telling me, I am NOT to expect my H to help me through it at the time? I have to let it pass and then ask for help??? By the time it passes, I will be ok, so then I won't need any help then. So maybe that is the plan I need to take, since my H doesn't want to hear any of it?

I don't have any girlfriends to talk about it with, because my H has not permitted me to share the A's with anyone. I am left to resolve the issue on my own, if I can't ask my H for help.

Quote from Rose:

Quote

If you’re having trouble not showing your emotions, you can tell your H that you need some alone time. If he wants to know what it’s about, let him ask. He will probably suspect what’s happening, and if he feels up to talking about it, he can let you know.

If I did this, my H would definately know it is about the OM. He will ask, I will tell, and we will be where we were the other night.

Quote from cards:

Quote

I'd have to agree that there is somewhat of a fine line in how far to go with expecting our H's to hear every little detail.

I do not expect my H to hear every little detail of any thoughts for triggers. This last trigger, was just more than I have experienced in a GOOD WHILE. I wasn't prepared with how to deal with it and I did let it overtake me.

I do thank each of you for your well thought out words. There is much to think about and have a talk with my H about how we should handle it the next time this happens. Hopefully it won't happen again or at least not for a very long time!

2Bnormal,

I once struggled with the exact same thing than you and asked similar questions about it than you. Please read all about it on this thread and especially pay attention to the response I received from ForeverHers. I’m sure you will find his response helpful & insightful too. Let me know what you think.

Blessings,
Suzet

2BN-

Well, like I said in my previous post, I can see both sides of this discussion. Regardless, I do wish you both well. The good news is that they seem to be less and less common, so you should hopefully be a little less difficult to deal with, knowing that it won't happen often.

2BN-

It is sort of a dilemma, isn't it?

Quote

have a talk with my H about how we should handle it the next time this happens

It sounds like this is the best approach. Every couple may have a different way of handling this. It will be up to YOU and YOUR H in how to handle. Work it out together so both are comfortable.

My H and I are not having many of these conversations any more at this point. For me there are very few things triggering me. My H does ask me if I'm OK when he senses that I am down, as he seems to be much more keen to my moods than he has ever before.

2B, I think your healing will take longer than mine due to the length and depth of your EA, and your situation is more complex than mine with the 2 EA's and PA. I didn't mean to imply that you are expecting too much of your H, only that you have to monitor and judge when it is right to talk to him about these things. AGAIN, work it out with him. Find out how HE would like you to handle it. You have worked very hard and have worked hard at handling things in the right way. Keep going, 2B, you're doing great.

Suzet - Thank you so much. I found that thread and the response from ForeverHers very helpful.

Quote

That you have to deal with the memories and the desire to purge them to your husband is one of the consequences of the sin that was committed. But you don't have the right to "force" your husband to take information he doesn't want because it will make you feel better or because you justify it on the basis of what you think YOU would want if you were in his shoes.

This quote above really hit me. My H said something similar to me that night when I talked about the trigger. He told me, of course I will have thoughts/triggers, but that is part of the consequence of the sin. I got myself in the sin and I am the one to have to deal with the consequences.

This all has really opened my eyes to how I was wanting my H to hear and help me, and for me to tell him when I get these overwhelming thoughts. I have a need to express my thoughts, but I don't have the right to "force" my H to hear them if he doesn't want to. I am USING my H to help me recover from triggers/thoughts, and that is not the right way to go about it.

Suzet - After you got through this point in your recovery, how then did you deal with thoughts and triggers?

quote from cards:

Quote

AGAIN, work it out with him. Find out how HE would like you to handle it.

Yes this is true. But, the "scared person" inside of me doesn't know how to work this out with my H. I can be total opposite here...on one end I will blurt it out for my H to hear "all" (or most of it) that I was just thinking....or totally try to hide my thoughts from my H. I haven't come to the middle ground with asking my H on HOW to deal with it when I am not in any thoughts/triggers.

Good morning, 2B –

My experience has been that triggers can continue for a long time, but the good news is that the impact of them lessens considerably over time. There was something that helped me when the triggers were the worst in the first months after d-day, though.

I realized that I couldn’t control some of the triggers (seeing a car like his, for example), but I could control my reaction to them – basically whether or not I allowed myself to dwell on the memories that resulted from the triggers.

When I’d have a particularly bad trigger, I’d remind myself that it wasn’t my fault if I saw a car like his, but then I would honestly ask myself if I was continuing to think about FOM on purpose. In other words, I realized that sometimes I’d use an accidental trigger as an excuse to indulge once again in the addiction.

I found I was able to use something taught in a Yoga class (I took for exercise, not as a religion). When thoughts come, don’t fight them, but rather relax and allow them to go through your mind, and then let them go. It’s sort of like, the trigger is a bird that you can't stop from flying by, but you don't have to let it build a nest in your hair.

Just an idea that I hope is helpful. Hang in there,

Rose

Hi Rose - Thank you for your thoughts! I am experiencing that the triggers do have less of an impact now compared to when I was in deep withdrawal. But, this last one seemed to hit me more than the usual for some reason. And maybe I did let myself dwell on it too much.

I will take your advice. I do realize that sometimes we cannot avoid triggers, but as you said, I can control my reaction to them!

2B =

You're doing great. You'll get through this, and you'll be fine one day. Just keep on keepin' on!

Rose

Rose -
Thanks for the encouragement! I'm really doing well this week in spite of that setback over the weekend. I am looking forward to the day and time where this will all be behind me as a faded memory! Time will take care of that!

Quote

Suzet - After you got through this point in your recovery, how then did you deal with thoughts and triggers?

2BN, the times I’ve found it difficult to deal with these thoughts and triggers by myself or the times I felt the need to talk to someone about it and get it out, I did the following:

1) I confided in trusting & Christian people who cared about my well-being and who were there to help & support me. These people included my mother, my counselor (a wonderful woman at my work who’ve also became a very good friend & confidant of mine – my mentor) and then a few of my other close & trusting girl friends. These people were all of incredible help & support to me during my withdrawal & recovery. It helps to confide in trusting people who are not emotionally involved.

2) I would also use these forums to help "get things of my chest" and to talk about things my husband didn't want to hear and I also didn’t always feel comfortable in sharing with my other confidants.

There is great wisdom in the following response you received from Rose55:

Quote

My experience has been that triggers can continue for a long time, but the good news is that the impact of them lessens considerably over time.

When thoughts come, don’t fight them, but rather relax and allow them to go through your mind, and then let them go. It’s sort of like, the trigger is a bird that you can't stop from flying by, but you don't have to let it build a nest in your hair.

2BN, this is very true… I was an obsessive thinker (currently using medicine for OCD) and those obsessive thoughts was really a problem throughout my recovery. What I’ve learned that it’s sometimes better to stop fighting against thoughts and feelings but in addition to just accept it, let it go through you and let it go again... In the beginning of my withdrawal & recovery, the thoughts and feelings would come and go continuously and repetitively, but I’ve experienced that if I keep fighting against them, it would only get a stronger hold on me and then I remained in the downward spiral.

2BN, you have to start to accept and experience the thoughts & triggers when they come up. But don’t pay attention to it… Just “let it be” and don’t try to analyze it or dwell on those thoughts & triggers because then you will give meaning to it and make it worse than it should be… If you do this you will experience that with time and patience, this cycle (of thoughts & triggers coming and going) will get less and less.

Also read the following post I’ve sent and the response I received from ARK^^ while I was struggling with those thoughts. You will find it helpful and insightful too and there is some suggestions you can use:

Quote

YOU SAID
The one major thing I’m still feel guilty about is my lingering thoughts and feelings for OM and the difficulty to put these feelings complete to rest. This is really a big struggle and religious problem to me. Although I’ve already forgave myself for the previous mistakes made and although I know that my H and God had also forgiven me, I’m still having a issue with the scripture in the Bible where Jesus talks about “adultery in the heart”. Therefore, in spite of the fact that I’m still continue NC and do all the right things to protect my H etc., I’m just wondering if I’m still commit sin/”adultery in the heart” because of my lingering thought and feelings about OM. Maybe I’m just too hard on myself sometimes.

Sometimes for very obvious reasons and sometimes just because it is the nature of the whole big mess. Thoughts, feelings, and occurances take on huge meaning, grave seriousness, and potentially worrisome issues...when in reality they are just normal occurances..but when processed through the infidelity filter...watch out...magnified to the 100th power.

Suzet the truth is that if your OM had not been an other man but someone you as a single person were dating and for whatever reason you two broke up and you were now dating your husband...you would still have thoughts and memories and think of him...that is totally normal..it carries no great meaning or profound revelations.

The act of our brains having a memory and thoughts coming in our head in not stoppable,

What we do and can control is our reaction to these thoughts...give these thoughts weight and meaning and they will continue...spend time really pondering them, reminicsing and they will become stronger and gain "meaning".

It is you that must break the cycle in your brain by doing different things..

1. as soon as a thought, image, pops in about him you push it away and change your thought,,,and we all KNOW we can do this...no one spends a lot of time with the thought of their upcoming dental appointment to get a cavity filled...or when your on vacation you don't spend a lot of time about packing and leaving day...no we have those thoughts and quickly move on to something more pleasant...you must learn to the same....

2. Time fades and heals the importance we place on events is also true...the farther we move from experiences the more distance we place on them instead of deeply pondering and examing them the more we learn to let go of those thoughts.

3. YOu need to quit associating a lot of guilt and negative emotions to these thoughts or you will be feeding the power they need to continue...

Look at to why you are clinging to the guilt of thoughts rather than saying...dang I can't control my brain from thinking the thought initially but I can control the amount of time and energy I spend exploring the thought AND how much importance i give it...

You may actually be gaining something from the guilt you feel...that it somehow PROVES your regret....but we "prove" our regret by totally recommiting to our spouses and acting thusly.

In pop-psyche these days people love to throw around repressing those feelings and ingnoring them and that leading to unhappiness...but in reality those thoughts are normal as is moving away from them...people don't graduate from high school and the morning after graduation never ever think of highschool anymore...it was big part of their lives for a while with emotional attachment...but as people move forward those memories carry less and less weight and bring less and less emotion as time moves on...and not spending minute after minute pondering highschool is not repressing thoughts and emotions..it is moving on...
suzet you need to "just let it be" (as john paul ringo and george would say)

Suzet - Thank you for taking the time to reply with such words of wisdom!

Quote

you have to start to accept and experience the thoughts & triggers when they come up. But don’t pay attention to it… Just “let it be” and don’t try to analyze it or dwell on those thoughts & tirggers because then you will give meaning to it and make it worse than it should be… If you do this you will experience that with time and patience, this cycle (of thoughts & triggers coming and going) will get less and less.

This is where I made my mistake with the last trigger. I tried to analyze it and think on it too much. Then, of course it made everything worse.

I can understand and relate to how these triggers will have a less effect on me as time goes on. If I have a trigger about the 1st OM, it does not affect me. I just let it pass. I realize that through time, this will happen with the triggers of the OM that are currently happening.

My husband does not permit me to share any of the A's with anyone, so I must respect him in that. And maybe, that is why I felt I had to "get it out" at times. It sometimes became hard to hold in...especially during the early withdrawal.

I do believe at this point in my recovery, I can practice what you advise, Suzet. These triggers are very few anymore, and I believe I can control my reaction and response to them.

Thank you so much for your help! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2BN, I’m glad my post could be of help to you!

Quote

My husband does not permit me to share any of the A's with anyone, so I must respect him in that. And maybe, that is why I felt I had to "get it out" at times. It sometimes became hard to hold in...especially during the early withdrawal.

I understand… Will your H allow you to visit a counselor to help you “get it out” and to help you through this stage? The help, support & assistance of a professional outside person can be very helpful. These boards are of great help too, but it’s also important to have at least one person you can confide in face-to-face if you feel the need. Since you can’t confide in your H, it’s unfair of him to expect you to “keep it all in” and not share with anyone... The problem is, this can lead to resentment towards your H and in your M if he allow you to “bottle it all up”.

Suzet

Quote

The problem is, this can lead to resentment towards your H and in your M if he allow you to “bottle it all up”.

This is true and this is what I'm afraid of. I spoke to my husband last night regarding the issue of the trigger over the past weekend. I told him that I was sorry that I handled it incorrectly and asked him how he would like me to handle it in the future. He said he would prefer that I hold it in and not tell him. He doesn't want to hear any of it. When I told him that it helps to get it out and tell him, he then asked me if he really helped me? Well, of course he didn't because we didn't have a plan. I left it at that.

As far as a counselor, I'm sure my H would have no problem with me going to one. I have mentioned this to him in the past, but I just don't know who to go to. I did not like the MC that we both went to, and I would like to find another one. I find it hard to look in a phone book and pick a random person and I'm sure my H would not permit me to ask around for fear that others may suspect that we are having problems. Any ideas on how to go about this?

Quote

I find it hard to look in a phone book and pick a random person and I'm sure my H would not permit me to ask around for fear that others may suspect that we are having problems. Any ideas on how to go about this?

Since it wasn’t necessary for me to phone around or seek a counselor, I don’t really have advice for you on this one. Just make sure the person you choose is a Christian and preferably a lady (to confide in a same sex person is always safer even if the person is professional). The lady I confided in is the Staff Counselor at my work, so the sessions didn’t cost me anything and I know beforehand she was a Christian and the perfect person to talk to. I consider myself very lucky in the sense I didn’t need to look around for another counselor at the time. I’ve got along with her very well and I trusted her enough to totally open up towards her.

2BN, another thing in addition to my previous post…

Maybe you can ask your pastor (or whoever is head of your church) to give you names and reference numbers of counselors he/she can strongly recommend? You don’t necessarily need to tell it’s for yourself… You can say it’s for a dear friend or family member who have problems and need help.

Suzet - Thank you for your ideas. My H never wanted to ask our pastor or anyone at church to begin with, so I'm not sure how he would feel about it at this point. My H works for our church, and this is why he wants to be cautious. People talk when they shouldn't....I may just have to go through the phone book.

Pehaps you could approach your pastor and request that he/she recommend a good IC for you? Don't give details, and simply tell your pastor that you'd like to have a completely disinterested third party counselor, as opposed to someone at the church...if he asks.

Owl - that may be the way to do it. I know my H has told me that our Pastor does not care for counselors...don't know why though? I will talk to my H about this some more and see what he suggests.

I can't imagine why a pastor would have an issue with a counselor...especially one who is Christian/biblically based.

Seems kind of odd to me.

If nothing else, do a search with something like Google Local to see if you can find something, and talk with their receptionist about their approach and methodology.

I found our MC (who was originally my IC) through a list of providers by my company's EAP...and by calling around like I'd described earlier.

Yes - it is odd, I know.... I also have to deal with the fact that my H deals with counselors at his job and I cannot go to any of them (my H doesn't want me to since he knows them personally)...so I am very limited. That has been the problem all along. We found this female Christian counselor that we both went to, but then I didn't care for her. She helped somewhat, but for additional counseling I would prefer not to go back to her.

Well...

Things have been alright on the Owl front for a while. We're dealing with things, but nothing specific to the EA, so haven't had much to post.

Really odd though...last nite, out of the blue, I had a dream in which my wife told me that 'OM was the first one to say I love you'.

The really odd thing is, I've never asked her who 'started' what in the EA. I didn't ask for details about it back then, and can't imagine any reason why I would ask now...it doesn't matter who did what.

Just very odd that I had a dream like that. Kind of caught me off gaurd. But...I shook it off, snuggled the wife, and went back to sleep.

Just figured I'd vent here about it...why in the heck would I have that dream NOW?!?!

Owl - Dreams can be strange can't they? Have you been thinking about that lately with regards to who started things? Good that you can just shake it off!

I've had strange dreams and one last night involving another man again in which I do not know. Very strange. Nothing happened in the dream, but I was obviously staying with some other man in my dream and we were in a HUGE house.....makes no sense to me? And I don't know why I dream these things?

LOL...dunno. I know my wife had a few odd dreams a while ago too. I think I posted here about them.

But my attitude lately has been to do my best to recognize that the affair is LONG dead. There has been NC for a year now, she's happy with things the way they are. Sometimes SHE takes things that I say or do as a worry related back to the EA, even when it's not. We still do counseling (have it today as a matter of fact), but that's more just maintenance assistance at this point than anything else.

As far as your dream, I don't know that I'd worry about it too much, as long as it wasn't involving OM or anything.

Hope everyone has a wonderful and safe 4th!

Quote

Sometimes SHE takes things that I say or do as a worry related back to the EA, even when it's not.

You know...I do that at times with my H. He'll make a comment and I'm thinking he is referring to the OM and at times he's not.

Things are going really well for us and I can say this week I've started to see things in "different light" with regards to the OM and thinking back. Even after the setback last weekend, I feel now that I don't want to look back anymore. I don't want to be reminded of the EA or the OM. My H and I will still have some conversations regarding the OM ....but the conversations seem ok and are not causing us to have a setback.

We leave in a little over a week for our next vacation, and I really feel that I will be shaken of having those overwhelming thoughts of the OM while away.

Have a safe 4th as well!

Well, we're trying something different in our R. Wife wants a little more space now.

She feels that we're spending too much time together...she's wanting more time without me, doing our own things. She brought it up at MC this last Friday. We've got a good MC...he works to make sure we both understand each other.

So...I'm backing off. I let her spend a lot of time gaming with the kids this weekend, and plan on letting her keep that up as she likes. Not going to IM her during the week as we've been doing...apparently the only reason she was doing that was because she felt guilty.

Got to say that I'm not feeling overly comfortable with the new system yet, but at this point I'll just do it and see how it goes.

Owl - Did your W not have much time alone? Sometimes we do need space from our spouses. I know I do at times, but then again my H is not that needy to be around me all the time and he will give me space when I need it. As long as you have a balance and ARE spending quality time together in ways that you both enjoy, I don't think I would be too alarmed by her asking this of you.

We had a great weekend and nice 4th. Had another couple over yesterday and this is something I'm working on. My H likes to have people over and I promised I would work on that for him.

Cards - We haven't heard from you in awhile. Hope you and your H are doing well!

Owl - I don't think I've ever posted to you before - Hi!

While I understand your W (or anyone) needing space, are you not going to IM her at all, or just not as much? If you feel uncomfortable with the situation now, it's not POJA.

My pastor encouraged my H and I to communicate often, and even recommended spending the extra money on cell phones (we didn't have any at the time) so we could contact each other at any time. What worked for us is that we set a time that was most convenient for both of us to talk to each other at least once a day during the week (right before lunch has worked out pretty well).

There are days that it's not possible, or that the time has to be changed, or that we e-mail each other instead, but it is nice to have a time to check in with each other, even if it's a very brief conversation.

Just a thought.

God bless,

Rose

Well, as far as IMing I'm not sure what kind of balance she wants. When we discussed this in counseling, she made it seem like I had her chained to the computer all day long, which of course is not what I felt was happening.

Today is my first day back to work...and she IM'ed me like normal as I arrived at work. We talked briefly...2 or 3 interchanges, and that's been it. I'm not going to IM her at all unless she starts it is how I'm going about it. She can also call me anytime she needs via my cell phone.

As far as whether or not this meets PoJA, well we've never actually used and MB based counselling. Our MC is familiar with the basic concepts, and does agree with most of the princples, but it's not the center that he uses to base his counseling on.

I guess that this just feels like we're not moving forward, more like moving apart. Now we'll see how it pans out as we try to actually implement this over the next few weeks and see if it IS something that I can get comfortable with. I can understand wanting to have space and while we're both feeling a little different about what's comfortable I'm willing to try it. I just hope that this doesn't come back to hurt us later.

Hey Owl,
I can understand how this feels like a pulling apart, but maybe your W still does feel like the IMing is babysitting. If you recall, my W told me the same a while back, before we were anywhere near where we are now. As far down the road as you are now, does it make senece to let go a bit? I know my W felt like she couldn't take a nap, or watch TV or even go out and work in the garden without me getting panicky -could your wife still feel that way? I know you've said that she has said "this is never going to end" a few times -seems to me that she is still feeling like she's on probation.

Out situations are similar in their circumstances, but it seems that in terms of timelines we have different results. At this point, I know my W is 100% with me now and oddly enough, the trust and the confidence in "us" has soared in the last few weeks (maybe it was the miraculous timing of everything clicking into place on the first day of my 2 week vacation -we got 2 weeks of 24-7 time to really mend the fences). We've been IMing today (my first day back), but I'm not feeling nearly the dependence on it that I did even 2 weeks ago. Actually for quite some time, it's just been a pleasant way to stay in touch, to let each other know how things are going.

Anyway, I say give her the space and see if you are still "feeling the love". That's what really counts.

On another front, the OM is STILL calling. First my W told him through a mutual friend that she didn't want to talk to him (twice) he called again, she sent him a thoughtful, clear, e-mail telling him it was over and that she didn't want to talk to him and yet he still called today (she was monitoring phone calls b/c she feared he might call -it's Tuesday after all -now she gets to dread Tuesdays <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). He left a message saying he needed closure -whatever that means. So she contacted their mutual friend again and asked her to relay the message once again that she never wanted to hear from him again. At first I almost liked the way she would reject him each time he called, but now it's getting to the level of harrassmanet and I don't like it.

Hopefully she won't feel pressed into giving him "closure". I fear what kind of crap he might try -obviously he's not dealing well. She told me at one point he was convinced that if they went NC that I would brainwash her. He's probably thinking he can deprogram her -that or he's being a "big" man and he's going to make some big production over how he wishes her the best. I understand how he feels -I felt the same 5 months ago when I thought I'd lost her for good, but I can't say I feel all that sorry for him. Ia m confident though that my W is handling this well and will continue to do so. Just sucks to have to put up with this guy calling.

Hmmm....have you considered calling him yourself, Sys?

I know that if OM in our case called, I'd probably chew his head off myself.

I'd also see about blocking his phone, and his emails. If it comes down to it, I'd bet it would be worth whatever the cost to change her number too.

It's great that your wife is finally back with you bro. I know what that's like.

In my case, I don't think she feels like she's on probation, or like I'm watching her every move. It's just that she'd like to have more space of her own...remember too that she's got four teens at home right now too. And so I'm trying to take that attitude and give her the space she needs.

Ever watch two people from different nationalities carry on a conversation? People with different expectations of 'personal space'? It's hilarious...I watched a German and an American move all the way across a room without eithe of them knowing that they were doing it...the German felt that the American was too far away for a normal conversation, so kept stepping closer. The American felt his was too close for personal comfort, so kept stepping back. It kept up until they hit a wall...quite funny to watch when you realize what's happening.

I just need to let her step back a step and not move forward. And let us both adjust to the new space.

Yeah, if this continues, I do feel like I should call him -but I want to clear it with the W first -she may be done with him, but I think she may have a bad reaction if I were to jump him without telling her about it first. Believe me, I would LOVE to get to "talk" to the guy. But I fear that it's more in the spirit of retribution than taking a constructive step toward getting him out of our lives.

Sounds like you have a good handle on your situation. We have a similar situation in that we have 2 young girls who love to hang on my W all day (one is still nursing from time to time even) so she is pretty "touched-out" by the time I get home -something we both need to be aware of. We ran into some of that on the vacation, we were reconciling our butts off, yet I needed to be aware of when not to jump into her physical space b/c the kids had burned her out. What she really wants is adult company and help with the kids -so that's what I endeavor to provide.

Absolutely talk with your wife before you do anything dealing with the OM...should go a long ways in avoiding issues in the future.

We'll see what happens in my situation. I'm going to back off, and let her start coming to me when she wants attention. It's probably the smartest thing to do anyway...I feel like I've carried the burden of all the reconciliation work myself anyway, and I'm just too tired to keep doing it all myself.

Sys - I agree with Owl regarding the OM. Either change the phone # or call the OM yourself.

After the very last contact the OM had with me, my H decided to call the OM himself. My H told me ahead of time that he was going to do this and I agreed. It seemed to work best, however, the OM in my situation wasn't being a pest with calling every week. The OM in your situation really NEEDS to get the message from either you or by changing the phone #, because what your W has tried is obviously not working. He may continue with the calls in the hopes of your W giving in.

I know exactly how you feel Owl, I was getting so exhausted before things finally came together for us. Now though it's like a switch flipped. She says "I love you" not as a responce to me saying it first, but says it first. She reaches out to hold my hand, she caresses me, she kisses me all on her own and it is glorious. Might be a good idea to back up a bit and let your wife come to you -it will make you feel great when she does -but don't worry when she doesn't -it's probably nothing.

quick update:W's mutual friend talked to OM and got him to delete W's email and phone number so he wouldn't be tempted. She's taking care of him and his issues. Pretty sure that will be the end of it. I understand where he is coming from -he's hurt and has some things he needs to say, but my W doesn't need to hear. I just wish he had come to this conclusion earlier. I guess he held on for the whole 3 months of NC. I kind of feel sorry for him to tell the truth. As happy as I am, he must be deeply saddened. We've come full circle I guess, I went from being unloved and rejected to loved and he has gone the other way. I know how he feels -and it sucks. I just hope we ALL learned from this.

Now that you mention it, I'm NOT surprised that he's started trying to contact her...I'd forgotten about the 3 month timeframe!

Undoubtedly that was the case...he was holding on, hoping that she WOULD come back to him after that three months was up. Realize that it is a little different for him...he doesn't have someone supporting and loving him like your wife does. Not that I'm trying to defend him...just seeing his viewpoint...odds are he had serious hopes that your M would fail and that she would return to him.

Sounds to me like the two of you have come up with a good plan for dealing with the situation, Sys. Glad to hear that!! Isn't it amazing how awesome things are when they finally turn around?

On my side, my wife seems to appreciate the space I'm giving her. She has made more effort to be loving when I am home, and to show me that she loves me. And I'm sticking to my side of things...haven't IM'ed or called, no pressure for her to do anything as far as that kind of thing goes.

Hope things are going well for 2BN and Cards...haven't heard from ya'll much lately!

Sys - As Owl stated, it all does make sense about the contact now that you mentioned the 3 month NC. I had forgotten about that as well! It sounds like things being handled well now with your update. Glad to hear that things are going so well with you and your W!

Owl - It sounds like things are going well with the space that your W wants. How are you feeling about it? You sound better and more confident today about it than you did previously.

I really haven't had much to post lately. We are doing well and it's strange that after everything I wrote about last week about my H wanting me to hold things in....now he seems to be talking ALOT about the OM and the EA. He drove me into work this morning and the whole drive (about 20 min.) was talking about the OM (both of them!). We have been discussing lately about how I view things differently now vs. back when I was in withdrawal. They have been productive conversations I feel in helping me see some things.

We are getting ready to leave this weekend for our trip to visit my family for a week. I'm looking forward to getting away!

2B

I know from my perspective, early on, I didn't even want to here OM's name -it was just too upsetting and in the early days, it was always in the context of how much better he was than me and how she loved him and what her plans with him would be -ick.

Now though, secure in the sense that he is out of her life, we talk about him quite freely. Not often, but with these phone calls and such, we really can't avoid him as a topic of discussion.

Perhaps your H's willingness to talk about it now is an indication that he is feeling more secure in your relationship?

Regardless, I think it's a good sign.

Sys - You are probably right about my H and him feeling more secure. He does help me to see and realize that the OM (both) were not such great guys! And I do see how my H is such a wonderfully committed man to me an our marriage!

Well, in truth I'm not really feeling much more confidant in things, but I'm going to do my best to support this and make it work...it wouldn't be the first time that Mrs Owl has made a suggestion that worked out for the better.

I'm just making the best of it that I can.

2BN, I'm glad to hear that things are going so well for you too. OM does occasionally come up in our conversations even now...he's not a 'taboo' subject. The other day a song came on the radio, and she says "I love this song!", and turns it up. I laughed, and we both sang it together...and when it was done, I asked if she remembered what she'd said about it in the past. She paused for a minute and said "Oh...". It was a song that she had listened to right after the end of the EA and when she was getting ready to seperate with me...it was one that she'd said described what OM and I both felt about her. I reassured her that it was fine, because I heard that particular song many times over the last several months, and it didn't carry the hurt anymore.

Its funny how a lot of little things will make ME think of the affair and OM...but I don't think that it happens nearly as often to her as she's really wanted to forget the whole thing. And even when I do think of that stuff, it's not the crushing hurt that it used to be. Now its a lot more distant and easier to handle.

I think that your H is likely getting closer to that kind of point as well.

One interesting observation. Now that my W and I are back on track, we are much more demonstably affectionate with each other -like we haven't been in years. It seems that our 5 y.o. is a bit jealous. She says as much and isn't thrilled to see mommy and daddy paying attention too each other when they could be paying attention to her! I don't think she saw this kind of mutual affection between us in her lifetime! LOL. Not a big deal, but it's a sure sign that things have changed when the kid makes note of it.

That's awesome. Realize that you're in a 'honeymoon' phase tho', friend. I'm NOT saying that things will get as bad as they were, but things will cool back down some as time goes on.

That's where I'm at now, and that's really the source of what I'm dealing with. I don't want it to cool down any...I LIKED the contact, the affection, etc...

But for my wife it was getting to be a bit too much. So I've tried to back off a bit to give her that space. And as long as things don't ever feel like they're getting 'too cool', or in any way approaching the distance we had between us before, it should hopefully be reasonably comfortable for both of us.

We went through the same thing my friend...and it is AWESOME how good things can get when you're back to working together. Our kids picked up on it too...they could tell the day that we started reconciling, without either of us saying a word to them. Of course, being a teenager does give them a slightly different perspective than your kids probably have...LOL.

Quote

And even when I do think of that stuff, it's not the crushing hurt that it used to be. Now its a lot more distant and easier to handle.

Owl - I think it's ok for my H to talk about now...but after talking to him last night, I'm still bothered by something. Maybe you and Sys can relate to this. My H tells me he views me differently now than before the A's. And maybe this is because I've had more than one. Before the A's he had total trust in me and felt like he knew who I was as a person. But now, he feels he really doesn't know who I am inside. Since I've done this, he doesn't have the total confidence that it WON'T happen again and that I'm willing to let my feelings take over instead of logic and what I know to be "right". I do realize what I did was very hurtful to my H and this may be a consequence of my sin that I will have to deal with. He tells me he HAS forgiven me, but this is how he views me....not that it takes over and ruins how we are as a couple. But...to know that he has these underlying thoughts of me really disturbs me.

I don't know if you both feel this way about your W's...or if this is something that will pass with time. Or something I'll deal with the rest of my M?

2BN-

I don't know how to say this without it sounding hurtful, so please do realize that it's not something personal.

I can very much relate to your H and how he feels. Realize that we ALL have this idealization of our spouses and our marriages before something like this happens. "Our M is different...something like that won't happen to US." "Well, I know that MY wife would NEVER do something like that to me."

Then the bomb drops. We find out that there ISN'T some mystical force protecting our M's. That the reality is that it CAN and DID happen to us. I would have NEVER thought that my wife would allow someone to come between us...have NEVER believed that she would even consider leaving our marriage. I always believed that she'd TALK with me about things, that she'd never lie about something as big as THIS.

Reality changes. Now we learn that our spouses are NOT perfect. That if things get bad enough, they WILL do the 'unthinkable'. It really does shake the foundation of your trust and belief in your spouse.

I don't KNOW for 100% certainty that my wife won't ever do something like this again. At this point, I can't imagine how SHE could feel 100% certain that she won't do it again. My trust in her will probably never be as complete (as innocent, as total) as it was before the EA happened.

I've forgiven her. I love her with all of my heart...in truth, it speaks volumes about how much I DO love her, in that I'm willing to take the risk of getting hurt like this again. I have NEVER been a trusting person. And in the times when I've been hurt in the past, I've ALWAYS cut my losses and walked away...so the fact that I've not done so this time, the fact that I love her so much that I'm willing to stay even knowing that it could happen again someday says a lot to me at least.

2BN, your H has lost his 'child-like trust' in you. I can't speak for him, or for anyone else, but I can tell you that I don't think that I myself will EVER have that kind of blind trust in someone again. I don't blame my wife for the loss of that either...honestly, it's reality, and it's just part of life.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Hi everyone,

I am here, but I'm not, if that makes sense. I've continued to have a lot going and have had little time to keep up with even reading the posts. I'm glad you all are still here because I know that when time allows I will need to come back and post and ask for more help. From what I gather, it sounds like everyone is doing relatively well. I will try to catch up soon.

nail on the head owl, not much to add. The only thing I can say is that from all accounts it can take as much as 2 years to regain trust. I feel waaayyy better now, but I can't say that every bit of doubt, paranoia nd distrust has gone away. I can intellectually overcome most of it, but sometimes I still get that fight or flight thing -right now as a matter of fact. My W was IMing me up until 20 minutes ago and then she sudden;y dropped -was probably a phone call or the baby was having a meltdown, but the sudden unexplained absence still gets me a bit. Part of it is just plain old concern, part of it though is left-over paranoia. It's these feelings that reinforce that sense of "who is she?, do I really know her? is she telling me everything?"

Owl - You have pretty much summed up how my H feels. Yes, I would definately say that my H has lost that "child-like trust" in me, and I suppose that is forever lost.

Quote

I don't blame my wife for the loss of that either.

This is where I differ in how my H feels. I'm not sure why you don't blame your W, or even feel she is not responsible for losing this trust? I know my H feels I'm responsible for the loss of child-like trust. There is no other reason for him to have lost that trust, except for what I did.

We are in the process of planning my parent's 50th anniversary party and that does stir up feelings and thoughts about commitment in marriages. When and if (if we live that long!) we reach our "50th anniv.", there will be thoughts about that I wasn't always "committed". I think about what our kids may say during an event as such.....not realizing what we have been through.

Also, our kids are not aware of the A's and last night our youngest made a statement at dinner. She said that she heard recently that in 80% of all marriages, someone has cheated. I'm not too sure her statistics are accurate, but my H and I just looked at each other and talked about it later.

There will always be "reminders" over the years to come that will make us think of the A's and what has happened in our M that forever affected it. And for myself, when I was in the midst of the A's, I never really thought about the future consequences of my actions. I never looked down the road long term to think that even if I stay with my H, things will forever be changed somehow. It really gives me new meaning to the word "fog" and knowing that I was truly in a "fog" to not realize this.

Just rambling on here with my thoughts.....Hope everyone is having a good day!

Cards - Good to hear that you are still around! We miss hearing from you and do hope that things are going well with you!!

Sys - Thanks for your thoughts as well. I am understanding that this is "normal" for my H now. I have heard that it does take several years to regain that trust again and I can certainly understand that.

I don't blame my wife, because the truth is that 'child like trust' was unrealistic. Let's face it, they say that at least half of all marriages are impacted by infidelity. That means that trust had a 50/50 chance at best...not very realistic, was it?

Again, I meant what I said too about my not being a very trusting person. I grew up on the streets...lived on them for a while. Saw combat when I was 19. Learned a LOT about what people do to each other all the time. So expecting MY life to be any different (better) than anyone else's was pretty silly in retrospect.

On a positive note for you, 2BN. Think about THIS for your 50th Anniversary...yes, you're going to have those thoughts, but you can always do what my wife does...she adds the thought "but OUR love was strong enough to survive that tough time!!". And again, it's true. Your H is still with you...and you're still with him. Says a lot about how you truly feel for each other...many people DON'T make it through something like this.

They do say that you continue to heal from these things...so it's possible that I'll feel more trusting and less cynical about trust in a few months or years...I dunno. I know it's supposed to average about two years to heal from infidelity, so hopefully we'll ALL continue to see improvements.

Even through what I did, I still have absolute trust in my H. I don't know if that's unrealistic of me, but I do. It is sad that he won't probably ever feel that way about me again, but we have survived and are recovering well now. And, as you said about our 50th anniv. (in 31 years!!)...we will be able to say to each other that our love was strong enough to survive through the toughest of times!

Well, its funny because my wife has said the exact same thing about me. And personally, I can't imagine that she'll ever be wrong on that...because I have good boundaries.

Glad that you are doing so well my friend. Its good to hear that there are several of us that have gone through this kind of thing and found ways to recover and rebuild our marriages.

I don't imagine that I will ever be wrong about my H as well. He has very good boundaries in place and even more so after what we have been through.

I will be on vacation for the next 1 1/2 weeks. Hope to see everyone on here when I return! Have a great week or so! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy your vacation, 2BN!

Well, I just started a post over in the recovery section. Any thoughts from my friends here would be appreciated as well. Thanks guys and girls.

No word from you...how you doing Cards?

Owl

How are you? I do have some things to share, but right now I am unable to do so. I have been continuing to search out answers for myself and have been strangely successful. In some ways I think I needed a break from the forum and it did give me some perspective. I know I'm not being clear, and I will explain soon because I will probably need some help.

I will reply to you on your new thread, Owl.

Hello everyone -
Just popping in real quick today! We returned from our trip last night. I'm still on vacation...at home...for today.

We had a wonderful visit with my family. This trip was so much better for me than the last vacation. I did not have any of the thoughts of the OM as I did on our last vacation! I had those passing thoughts still, but not at all to the degree in which I was struggling previously.

I believe I had mentioned that we were having a surprise 50th anniversary party for my parents when we were there. It all was a success and a wonderful event for my family and my parent's friends. This event was something I thought about and knew would happen when I was still talking to the OM, and I could never imagine how it would have happened should I have left my M for the OM. I thought about it briefly during the event and was soooo very happy to have my H and daughters sitting next to me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hope everyone is doing well. Seems like this thread is about dead lately!

Cards - I'm glad you are doing well. We do hope to hear more from you soon when you get the chance to.

Welcome back, 2BN.

Glad to hear that the trip went well. I can imagine its feeling pretty good for both you and your husband that you're both making such great progress!

Hey Sys, 2BN, and Cards-

Haven't heard much from any of you all lately...thought I'd shout out and see how everyone is doing?

Hey Owl - I'm still here, just very busy getting caught up at work since I returned from vacation. My H and I are doing well though. I'll try to write more when things get back on track at work.

Hope everyone else is doing well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Folks,

Sorry for not being out here much, but man, what can I say? Things are great. Our marriage is better than it has ever been. The recovery seems quite quick and I know it's the real deal. From all I can gather , my W just wasn't going to do anything to give me any false hope until she was sure of "us". Once that happened, it all just cascaded. She opened her heart and let me in.

Wishing you all the best.

Sys-

You have no idea how awesome I think it is to hear that from you!!! You've made the only other person I know who's marriage survived an EQ affair bro!

Things are alright at the Owl's roost too. Worked on the house yesterday, ended up cleaning and rearranging the computer hutches...wife wanted to set hers up like mine and realized that it meant that I wouldn't be able to see her screen from where I was sitting. She (totally on her own) apologized and said she'd change it back...I told her not to worry about it, that I wasn't worried about it at all. She left it, but then when we went to bed she suggested we swap where we're sitting, so that I can see the TV better, and also so that her monitor was still out where everyone could see it. We may do it, but just so I get good TV viewing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, it looks like everyone that came onto Card's thread has pretty much had a happy ending, with the exception of Bass and Win. I do hope things work out for them the best way possible for their whole family.

Later ya'll.

Sys - It is great to hear how wonderful you and your W are doing!

Owl - Glad things are going well in your household as well.

I probably won't post a whole lot anymore, but will when I need to. Which brings me to my thoughts today....

Last week I had this major crying meltdown and I can't even pinpoint what the emotions were. I was studying my Bible and it just hit me all of a sudden. Anyways, I've been ok since, but still can't figure out my emotions on that day.

Just wondering Owl, if you can relate this to your W at the stage I'm at now. It has been 3 months since the final contact with the OM and really, my thoughts have been ok and not wandering back to the OM. I still at times, think about how I got myself in the big mess I did, but I don't want to dwell on it anymore.

Cards - Still thinking of you and hope you are doing weill!

2BN-

Sounds right on the money with where my wife was at in our situation at the 3 month mark. We were well on the road to recovery, we'd just gotten the final NC between the two of them firmly in place, and she felt like everything was going just exactly like it should be for us.

At that point (and ever since) she's had no desire to dwell on, think about, or really talk much about what happened. To her, it's in the past, and she's completely let it go. In her case at least, I'm sure that a large part of that is the guilt...it's too painful for her to admit even to herself what she'd started, and what that did to us and to me. So her response is to let it go.

I'm not at all surprised that you've reached this point 2BN...sounds like you're right on track with where most FWS's are in things. Glad to hear that you're healing as well.

Owl - Thanks for your thoughts, but I think I wasn't clear with my question.

My question was more related to my emotional episode last week. It had to do with the A, but I can't pinpoint why this happened last week. Did this happen to your W at all after 3 months of the final NC?

I am trying not to dwell on the A, but my H and I still do talk about it most days. It's just that my thoughts aren't ALWAYS there anymore. And when I do have thoughts, they are MUCH different than what they used to be.

I posted this over on the Recovery Board as well.

2BN-

No, I don't believe she ever had an emotional episode of any kind in that timeframe, but there are several reasons why she may have either not had one, or I wasn't aware of it.

I don't think that she's had anything like that...once she finally and completely let go of contact, it seemed to be the end of her emotional attachment and involvement with OM. At one point about 7 months after d-day she'd mentioned that she HAD been thinking of him, but from a 'hoping he was ok' perspective only. Other than that, she's not given me any indication that she's felt much of anything from what happened.

I DO know that she felt guilty for a long time afterwards, and that if she DID have any kind of feelings she may have chosen not to talk about it to avoid hurting me further.

Not sure if that helps.

Owl - Your W seemed like she was very strong emotionally or was very good at keeping her emotions inside. But regardless, it seemed to work for your M and her recovery.

I guess we all deal with these emotions differently. Thanks for your thoughts.

Hello everyone,

Long time, no post.

I have come to the official conclusion that my EA resulted in the context of "mid-life crisis". This is probably not a rocket-science revelation, but it has helped me put my situation in context. These last weeks have been a rollercoaster for me in several ways - what's going on in my homelife and also what's going on inside of me. Nothing horrible, just busy and reflective. I have been reading a book (which I don't have the title off the top of my head) and it has helped explain a lot to me.

As you know, I have struggled relentlessly trying to figure out why I was susceptible to the EA I fell into. I had to know WHY did this happen? I struggled with withdrawal, triggers, keeping NC. I now realize that the EA was not what I believed it to be. This hurts, but yet it helps. I had focused on trying to determine my EN's and what happened in my M. For some of that time I think I subconsciously "blamed" my H and M. I now realize that what happened was the result of a culmination of factors in my life and how I had allowed myself to "get lost" in being wife, mom, employee, etc, etc. This was MY shortcoming, no one elses.

I also realize that I am not, and will not be, who I was before the EA. I wanted to believe that I would return to that person who was on top of everything and being the perfect wife, mom, etc. That was much of my dilemma in these recent months - I felt as though I know longer cared as much about those things and I was tormented by that. It is OK that I am different now and ultimately it will be good in the long run. That person was DOING all the right things on the outside, but not taking care of herself. The EA was an event that occurred because of emotions & other needs being squelched. While I intellectually knew this before, time has helped me embrace it and clearly see it.

I certainly do not have all the answers on where to go now, but I feel now, more than ever, that I am on some kind of journey to redefine my self (I know this is getting sappy!). I know it will take time and there is a lot of work to do for me, for my H, and for my M.

Thanks for listening, I apologize for not being here to listen to you all as of late....

Hi Cards!

It's good to hear from you! It certainly sounds like you have been doing alot of searching/reflecting on how the EA happened. I know this was so important to you and am glad to hear that you have made progress in this.

I too have thought about the "mid-life crisis" context and it's role in my EA. I remember thinking when I first started to write on this forum, how most of the women in our situation were near our age and thought about the correlation in how we found ourselves on a similar path in this stage of life.

Quote

I also realize that I am not, and will not be, who I was before the EA. I wanted to believe that I would return to that person who was on top of everything and being the perfect wife, mom, etc.

I have realized this as well..that I will NEVER be the same person before the EA. My goal is to be a better wife, mother, friend...etc. My H is seeing a "better me" emerge from this and has commented to that effect. I don't want to be the person "who was" before the EA, because that person was susceptible to the EA and was selfish about what she wanted.

Quote

I now realize that the EA was not what I believed it to be. This hurts, but yet it helps.

Cards - just curious what you meant by this and why it hurts?

I am still in this learning process as well as you. If you get a chance to remember the title of the book you are reading, please pass the title along ok?

Again - good to hear from you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2BN,

Quote

My goal is to be a better wife, mother, friend...etc. My H is seeing a "better me" emerge from this

I don't know that a better me is emerging yet, as I think I have to find that person first. I do think I will be a better person as I make the necessary changes in my life to adjust to what I now have found out about myself. I believe I went for so long going through the motions of life and just doing, doing, doing.... and not stopping to feel my feelings.

One thing that I found odd this entire time is that during and since my EA I stopped watching news, talk radio, watching tv, etc. Before my EA I was constantly in touch with local, national, world news from the time I got up in the morning until I went to bed. Since the beginning of my EA I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in this. I have not watched or listen to news or radio for months. For some reason I was flooding my brain with all that info and not getting in touch with my self. Interesting, I think...

The book I am reading is called The Breaking Point by Sue Shellenbarger. She talks about the how and why and who mid life crisis happens to. There are some very good insights and she identifies different archetypes of what women find missing in their lives.

For me I think this was happening and I wasn't realizing it until I got involved in the EA. Now, looking back, I can see that the EA was an effect of my situation.

Quote

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I now realize that the EA was not what I believed it to be. This hurts, but yet it helps.

I now believe my PERCEPTION of the EA was different than what it truly was. In other words, in my mind it was what I needed it to be at the time. I have decided to view it as such, irregardless of how OM perceived it. What hurts is that I gave a piece of my soul to someone based on a fantasy. What helps is that I realize it was more about ME than about ME and OM as a unit.

I know this sounds like it is all about ME, but to some degree I had to get back to the fact that it did begin about ME. I realize the impact and hurt the EA has caused my H, and our M needs work. I have to repair and rebuild trust with H. But I had to get to a starting point in order to even move forward. That starting point had to be understanding ME before I could move on to M & H.

I don't know if any of this makes sense to anyone else, but that's what is going on with me......

It makes complete sense to me...affairs ARE all about 'me'.

It sounds to me like you've come to some reasonable conclusions, and I like the idea that 2BN has about a 'new and improved' person going forward!

I don't believe that my wife has put nearly as much thought into the whole thing as the two of you have...I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Glad to hear that everyone is doing well.

Quote

I don't know that a better me is emerging yet, as I think I have to find that person first. I do think I will be a better person as I make the necessary changes in my life to adjust to what I now have found out about myself.

Well, I haven't totally found that person in me either, but I do see changes and my H notices as well. Remember for me, this has been going on for about 2 years now and I really don't remember much before the EA. All I have to draw upon is how I acted during both EA's and that was very ME oriented. Pretty much just checked out of reality and life.

Quote

One thing that I found odd this entire time is that during and since my EA I stopped watching news, talk radio, watching tv, etc. Before my EA I was constantly in touch with local, national, world news from the time I got up in the morning until I went to bed. Since the beginning of my EA I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in this.

True for me as well. I lost touch with all that was happening in the world. I didn't pay attention to the news as highly as you did, but more so than during the EA's and after.

Quote

What hurts is that I gave a piece of my soul to someone based on a fantasy.

I think this is always the case since it was a fantasy, but when we were in it we really felt that there was more to it. And yes it really was all about ME because I gave no regard to my H and my children when I was involved in the EA's.

I have really thought about my EA with the most recent OM and was reflecting on how it all started. I was very vulnerable having just ended the EA with the first OM. I still viewed my H as not giving ME what I needed. The OM, was struggling in his M at the time and got what he needed from ME that he wasn't getting from his W. All of a sudden...we looked good to each other and met each other's needs. It wasn't that HE was so special, but that HE and I were communicating during very vulnerable times for both of us. We knew from the very beginning it was wrong. It hurts to think back on my role in keeping the EA going and it does hurt to think back that I gave so much of myself to this man.

I can't even think back to the first OM other than I let my guard down with him contacting me after so many years. The communications kept going and I fell into the trap.

I think you are making good progress Cards, and you will start to see the changes you want in your M. M does take work and I think we all realized this the hard way!

Thanks for the book title too. Sounds interesting and informative. I will have to check it out!

Hi guys,
Just wondering how everyone has been doing. I'm not doing that great, just trying to get by. Life is just a mess. Trying to hang in there.

Hope you are all doing well.

Win

Hi Win - Sorry to hear that you aren't doing so well. I've read a little on your other thread and I can see that things have been tough. If there is something you need to talk about let us know....

I haven't been on here very much. I still lurk now and then, to see if anyone posts on this thread, but I haven't had much to post myself.

- 2BN

Thanks 2b

Just trying to deal with everything I guess. Still trying to get over OM which seems to be harder now that I'm seperated and dealing with H at the same time. Lots of anger and depression. Trying to be strong for my kids, but it would be nice to have someone take care of me, for once.

^^^^bumping for a friend^^^^

thanks

~Jamie~

Just wanted to shout out to Cards, 2BN, Sys, and Win...was hoping that ya'll are doing well!

Things are going well here...looking forward now to the time when all of the owlets are out of the nest, and it's just me and Mrs. Owl.

Hey All,

Happy to report things are going well (that's an understatement -we're better than we ever were!).

Owl -fair season is in full tilt -busy busy busy done 3 different fairs in 3 weeks -we're kind of nuts that way.

Thanks again to everyone for all the support you gave me -it made the difference and saw me through my season in ******. I wish the best for all of you.

Sys-

Glad to hear that things are still going great for you!!!

Fair season starts in two weeks for us. It runs for six weeks, so don't know when we'll be going yet. Enjoy your time friend!

Hi All! Doing well here as well.

H and I are still working through a few issues. Don't know if you all remember me talking about the affair (with a married man) I had before my H and I were married. This has been brought up recently in our conversations and I admitted to my H that there was also another incident at the same time with someone he had always questioned me about. This incident did not go further than a kiss with another married man...at the very same time I was having this affair before my H and I were married.

My H had to process all of this because this is something that I've always denied for over 20 years! I'm glad I told him though.

But, now it makes me even think what is wrong with me that I sought after 4 married men in my life?? Two prior to marriage and 2 after marriage.

My H feels it's as simple as this....that I didn't care about anyone else's feelings but mine and didn't care about hurting people. I would say that that is true, but I believe there is more to it than that. I've just been having a hard time lately processing why? Why I did so much wrong in my life?

Well, my personal suggestion would be to remember that you're not the same person you were 20 years ago. Hopefully, you're not the same person you were 2 years ago.

You can't keep beating yourself up over mistakes made that far in the past...as long as you've made the changes in your life and in your behavior to help you to realize that you WON'T do that again. After that, you have to 'give it to God'. And let Him deal with it.

It's interesting that you mention that this happened. Over the last year, I've wondered about something similar that happened early in our marriage as well. I had gone ahead to get us housing overseas, and it took MUCH longer than we'd thought...my wife was still in the states with our four little ones for several months.

I came home on leave to help her come to our new duty station, and she told me that she'd had a 'close call'...she'd spent some time at a guys house (with all of our kids there too), and had fallen asleep while watching TV. She swore up and down that nothing happened...but I ran into this guy later and he did NOT want to be around me.

I've wondered for a long time if something had happened, but have trusted my wife. Now, after her EA, I do wonder if she lied to me back then about what happened. I'm not sure it's worth asking about now, but your issue sounds so similar that it does make me wonder. My 'gut' back then told me to worry...now I wonder if I should have listened harder to it.

At any rate, keep up the re-building of your marriage friend. And at this point, hopefully BOTH of you can move on and focus more on now and the future, instead of the past.

Thanks Owl. I know I am definately NOT the person I was 20 years ago!! And I know I have changed and grown so much over these past months since the EA ended. It's just hard to think about how things "could have been" had I not done the things I've done to my H. I am really blessed that my H is still by my side!

As far as your wife and her situation from the past. Yes, I can understand why you would question it. I kept denying the situation that happened with me because it didn't go further than a kiss. But, when he directly asked me the other day, I could not lie to him anymore. I knew the truth had to come out. It wasn't devastating to him, but he still needed to process it and try to remember events from over 20 years ago.

We are moving forward though and our marriage is healing.

Glad to hear you are doing well!

Quote

I didn't care about anyone else's feelings but mine and didn't care about hurting people

2B...I think that is a simplistic statement about what occurs emotionally within a person. You know it's not true that you didn't care about other people, it's just that at that particular time the inner turmoil and needs for yourself won out. That's where I am searching, too. What was so strong a need to abandon reason and logic?

I am still reading books trying to answer these questions for myself. I still feel the loss of my EA and am trying to find the areas of my life where I can find fulfillment. Maybe it will be something new.

I have to be honest. Neither myself or my H are working on our M at this point. This is NOT because we don't want it to work, it is because we are not able right now. My H is very "fragile" right now. He is struggling very much with panic attacks relating to job stress. It is all he can do right now to deal with his anxiety.

This has been the story of our M, on and off, and that is surely why I was susceptible to an EA. For all our years of M he has dealt with depression & anxiety. I have felt like I am the one always shouldering everything while he tries to deal with himself and his problems. I sometimes feel like it is hopeless that we will ever have a M where we are mutually meeting each others needs. Most of the time he honestly cannot expend energy to pay attention to what I need, let alone act on it.

I do not know what to do at this point, because this pattern just keeps repeating itself despite his efforts at medications & doctors. I truly do not know what to do next. I don't think MC would even help while he is so burdened. Is this just my cross to bear? I have been doing that, but stuffing my needs resulted in the EA. If I continue doing that, what will happen next?

The good thing about my EA is that I realized that our M cannot go on as it was. But now I am desperate for a resolution, and am frustrated that we are once again at the mercy of his anxiety. It is heart-wrenching because he is a good man with a heart of gold. I so want him to be able to deal with life, and I so want a fulfilling M, but I do not know how to get there. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Owl, you have mentioned you have dealt with some of these things. Did your W ever feel as though she was shouldering everything and keeping it together? I think sometimes I just yearn for the feeling of someone taking care of ME for a change.

Sorry to go on and on...............I sometimes get frustrated and lose hope....

Glad to see you are all still here.

Quote

2B...I think that is a simplistic statement about what occurs emotionally within a person. You know it's not true that you didn't care about other people, it's just that at that particular time the inner turmoil and needs for yourself won out. That's where I am searching, too. What was so strong a need to abandon reason and logic?

Yes, to me my H's statement is too simplistic and it frustrates me that this is how he feels. He has never been on our side, so to him it does look this simplistic. I know it was wrong. I knew it hurt him, but...what brings us to the point of abandoning what we know is right? I'm not sure I will ever figure that out!

I'm sorry to hear what's going on in your M right now. I don't have any wisdom on that type of situation.

Quote

I truly do not know what to do next. I don't think MC would even help while he is so burdened. Is this just my cross to bear? I have been doing that, but stuffing my needs resulted in the EA. If I continue doing that, what will happen next?

Cards, do you think individual counseling would help you work through this? Stuffing your needs doesn't sound so healthy, yet I see how hard it must be for your H to fulfill your needs right now.

cards-

Sounds like your H has a similar deal to mine. I got really wrapped up in work and part of that was a constant anxiety that I had to keep moving forward -had to always prove myself over and over and that at any minute, it would all collapse around me. This mostly happened after I was laid off and I tell you it was traumatic. Add to that starting a family and the immense feeling of responcibilty to support them made it all the worse. In the end, my priorities got all turned around .I thought that if I worked hard enough and worried enough that I wold eventually be happy and my family would be secure. Litle did I see how self-destructive this thinking was and what a wreck it was making me. I couldn't see it. It took D-Day to radically realign my priorities. As a consequence, I now have a healthier, albeit less ambitious outlook on my working life. It was a big change. We'll see how my employer deals with the new me -

Funny thing is, now that my M is back on track, I can see hints of the old me surfacing now and then, but at least now I recognize it and put it all in perspective.

D-day shattered me completely, but allowed me to put myself back together again in a better way I think. Maybe I' was lucky -lol.

I don't know your husband's situation, or what his triggers are. I don't know what to tell you, but it sounds like he needs to talk to someone about this stuff and get his own house in order. Maybe you cold use someone to talk to as well?

I found that our MC was a great aid to us both as individuals as well as a couple -it let us begin to understand each other better. Maybe you can give it a try after all?

Thanks for the responses 2B & Sys.

2B, I really don't think your H believes you set out to hurt people. It's probably more that he doesn't want to accept that for some reason he was not meeting your needs and you looked elsewhere. He's probably feeling anger when he says that.

Sys, I think my H has similar thinking like you in that his biggest responsibility is to work and take care of the family - at all costs. This was his father's role, too. I am proud of him in that he recognizes these anxieties and doesn't deny them like some people would do. He seeks help when he needs to. He goes through periods where he has to constantly fight the worry and negative thinking.

D-day was eye-opening for him............but a bit of time has passed and in his mind we're on to the next problem. The problem is that I am different and experienced attention and care from someone. Having felt that, I want that. I don't know if I can accept our R as it was, and I feel a sense of urgency to make things better. I hate to admit it, but it's almost as if I don't trust myself to not search for it - or something else meaningful. That is what I've been doing - trying to search within myself for healthy ways to be fulfilled until which time we can both put in the necessary effort towards the M. I'm not sure if it's a good plan or not, but I feel my hands are tied to do much else.

Maybe you are both right - counselling. Thank you for your suggestions and listening.

Dear Cards,

Please check out Whisper’s thread. She is a FWW who struggle with similar emotional problems in her M right now. However, the circumstances and rout of her and her H's problems is totally different from yours, but I was thinking that maybe some of the suggestions & advice she receives from others might be helpful to you as well. Maybe the two of you can also give each other some moral help & support since it seem you’re going through somewhat similar frustrations & struggles right now.

Blessings,
Suzet

Cards-

I've been the one shouldering most of the load in re-building our marriage. And my wife has admitted that in MC that she recognizes that. But unfortunately that hasn't really changed the situation much. I've pretty much had to deal with my anxiety and depression on my own...I tried asking her for help at various times, but sadly she just doesn't seem to be able to put forth any effort in helping me to deal with stuff like this. And that just makes her feel worse when she realizes that she's not helped. So...sadly I rarely talk to her about dealing with it, and just do my best to handle things on my own.

But...the anxiety seems to have faded quite a bit again, and the depression is manageable, so this isn't quite the crisis that it might sound like.

I'm not sure what to suggest to you in your situation. Other than gently reminding him that he (I assume) made a promise to you to make these changes in your marriage, and that it's important that you both stick to that. Neither of you want to let things get back to how bad they were before.

Our situation has been somewhat the reverse...I'm the one fighting to ensure that we don't end up back where we were.

Owl,

I feel like I have tried to help and be supportive regarding my H's depression issues for all of these years. But after awhile it began to feel like I really wasn't helping much. I know it's frustrating for you & my H and everyone that deals with that to have to constantly be on top of it and work with it, but it's also hard to be the person watching it and feeling helpless to do much. After a while I think I gave up trying to help and just let him sort it out. Throughout our marital life he has dealt with this and the result has been that he has depended on me to "run the ship". He has stable times, but since it is erratic the net result has been that I basically took over most responsibilities for the sake of continuity.

As I said, he is a good man and has never done anything to intentionally hurt me or distance himself from me, so I have incredible guilt when I even hint at complaining about this. It is not his fault that he has a family history of this. But, I do feel that our M has been so out of balance because of this. I came to not EXPECT any emotional support from him because he was too "busy" with his issues. And guess what happened - sucked into EA.

Owl, just this weekend I did "gently" explain this to my H and his response was that he can't help right now. He was not being hurtful and selfish, just matter-of-fact.

Quote

2B, I really don't think your H believes you set out to hurt people. It's probably more that he doesn't want to accept that for some reason he was not meeting your needs and you looked elsewhere. He's probably feeling anger when he says that.

No, I don't think my H believes I "intentionally" set out to hurt him, but he does feel that "I just didn't care about people" or else I wouldn't have done what I've done. He honestly feels it's that simple. He never mentioned him not meeting my needs as the reason I didn't care. I know I've mentioned this in the past but to him it IS so black and white.

Cards, my situation is not as extreme as what you are experiencing with your H right now. But, I have come to realize that my H cannot always meet my needs. There are times when his needs do take priority over my needs. It seems that is what you are experiencing and have experienced alot throughout your marriage. I imagine that this is very difficult for you as you realized it lead you to the EA.

Quote

The problem is that I am different and experienced attention and care from someone. Having felt that, I want that.

I totally understand this! But, we have to realize what we experienced was NOT reality. I know you know that. I want and desire what I experienced from the OM too, but it just won't happen exactly like that in my M. Even if I would have married the OM, it wouldn't have stayed the same.

Quote

That is what I've been doing - trying to search within myself for healthy ways to be fulfilled until which time we can both put in the necessary effort towards the M. I'm not sure if it's a good plan or not, but I feel my hands are tied to do much else.

Cards, actually I think this is a good plan. I know you are a Christian as well. How much have you sought the Lord on this, and really prayed about it? I'll keep you and your H in my prayers.

Hey Owl, Cards and Sys...
Just letting you know I posted a question over on the Recovery Board this morning. You are welcome to reply there...really need advice...thanks!

I posted this on the Recovery Board, but wanted to post on here as well for anyone to answer...

I'm going back to our MC today. Today, I will be going by myself and perhaps the next visit my husband will join. We both felt it was best that I go first. This is the same MC we both went to in January - February, however, alot has happened since then.

I want to make the most of my time and have been writing down notes to make sure I bring up everything I want to talk about.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to make the most of my time?

Hi 2B <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the just-in time reply.

I don't know exactly what to tell you, as every MC has a different approach. More than anything, I think you need a plan for your life. As our MC said, odds are , if you don't have a plan, you'll probably end up somewhere other than where you thought or wanted to go.

It sounds kind of daunting, but not really. You needn't go too far, but ask yourself, what do you want out of MC, what to you want for yourself, your H, your family? What are you willing to do to get there?

That last one is the toughy, because you may not want to do what you know it might take.

More than anything, I would not try to put too many limits on yourself. No deadlines, no pre-qualifications, etc. But do realize that you will need to set some limits. Limits to behavior, and limits to expectations.

Be ready to give more than you get. Learn to back down when it just isn't worth it. Don't assign blame. Frankly I wouldn't try to focus too much on the past at all. You can't change it. Instead look at this as an opportunity to move forward working towards something positive. Obviously there are the roots of your issues that you need to recognize and correct, past behaviors to modify, but if there is one thing I learned in all of this, wallowing in hurt got me and my W nowhere.

Even if you don't have hope now, realize that things can get better with time and effort.

I don't know if that helps you maximize your time, but at least I hope it gives you food for thought and maybe some hope.

Oh, one more thing -LISTEN. Listen to you MC, listen to your H and listen to yourself. It is the key.

Hi Sys!
Thanks for the advice!

Quote

but ask yourself, what do you want out of MC, what to you want for yourself, your H, your family? What are you willing to do to get there?

These are good questions to ask myself and I have been reflecting on these the last several days. So much has happened over these past months and I'm not sure if you got to read any of my updates on the recovery board. But, alot has changed within me. I am ready for all this to be behind me and to move forward!

OK...Owl's feeling a little odd today.

Sys, I know you'll understand this a little better than the rest. If you're still here my friend.

My wife's EA started through an online game we've played for quite a while...you interact with a LOT of other people in the game. I've seen numerous other couples go through almost exactly what we did, and (I don't mean to sound sexist, but I'm simply pointing out what I've seen) it seems that almost every couple who plays this game ends up with the wife finding 'her soulmate' via the game, the couple ends up divorced and the husband ends up devestated. So far, Sys and I seem to have the only marriages that I've seen survive this.

My wife and I still play, though we've changed how we do so quite a bit. We just joined a new, HUGE guild where a number of our friends had gone after we'd stopped playing last year due to her EA. Well, I'm off this morning...I've just found out that ANOTHER couple that we were friends with back then has gone through the exact same thing...she's in love with someone she's met in game.

It makes me just want to disconnect my internet service and move to a mountain top in Alaska!

Owl - Well I think the statistics are high for internet affairs, no matter where they meet online. It happened with me and I wasn't playing an online game...as you know. And, I "know" it has happened more than once on the very forum I was on and met OM2. There was a woman on there that was "counseled" just like I was by another man. She was married and was suffering in her marriage. Well, she divorced her husband and is now married to this man! And, get this...she claims that God put them together and that HE is the man that God had always intended for her to marry, and that God gave her a new beginning for the happiness and love she deserves! Talk about deception!

The internet and the secrecy that can happen online has caused alot of damage to marriages that's for sure. We really need to have our boundaries set in real life and online.

Anyways...just my thoughts.

2BN-
You're right, of course. It just really gets to me, since I've seen so many friends whose marriages were destroyed by the exact same thing I've gone through. And seeing it happen to someone now, AFTER what we went through, brings back some of that fear and pain for me.

I couldn't imagine going through this again...and seeing that it hit someone else that I thought was in a good marriage just makes that fear seem possible.

I'm just venting here today, ya'll. We'll make it...I just didn't see this trigger coming after as long as it's been for us now.

I understand the trigger because the situation I referred to in my post really got me upset as well. And more so, because it's on a Christian forum where others have seemed to have backed up her reasoning for divorcing her husband. It made me ill.....

I guess for you, because you are friends with alot of these people, it's hard to hear. Do you think it might be good to take a break from the gaming so you are not reminded time and time again? Just wondering..

Honestly, this really hadn't been a problem for quite a while. The OM had started logging back into the game back in Spring, but there were never any contact attempts, and my wife made it very clear to me then that she did NOT want to have any contact with him. We ended up playing on servers other than our normal one for a while, and I know that OM hasn't been in game for several months now.

This is the first time in ages that this has really reared its head.

We might do that break from gaming for a while...I'll have to see how things work out. Thanks for lending an ear friend.

Quote from Owl:

Quote

We're going through some TOUGH times right now in my case...I've even started to wonder if perhaps contact has resumed or something new has come up, it's been THAT bad here.

Owl - I wanted to bring this over to this thread. This concerns me that you feel that contact has resumed or something else has come up. Why do you feel this way? I thought you had a keylogger on your computer too so that you can verify if there was any contact. You also felt certain that your W does not want contact with the OM by what you wrote in your previous post?

Just concerned by what you wrote especially since you have been saying how well things have been.

2BN-

Well, I really am not sure what's going on. But it's a bunch of small things that are adding up that really are starting to worry me.

She's been a lot more distant lately...almost like a light switch after we had a GREAT weekend together weekend before last. She's been keeping to herself a lot more, angry with me and the kids a lot again, not taking care of herself as much. She doesn't want to talk about what's bothering her "I'm dealing with things...I don't want to have to go over it again with you.". Basically a lot of the pre d-day behavior.

And it also just occurred to me that there are gaps in the keylogger's coverage that I can't explain...even conversations that her and I had during the day via IM that aren't showing up. It COULD be that she's figured out how to turn it on and off...she's watched me start and stop processes on the computer enough to have figured it out. I don't know for sure.

We've been doing great...the only stress we've really had to deal with is my work and our oldest kids. But it's just seemed like something has really gone haywire for the last two weeks, and I can't figure out what it is. I really have felt like she's not wanted to contact OM...but the only time I've seen her like this was during her EA.

I guess all I can ask at this point is for you all to hold us in your prayers.

Owl - Well I can understand why you are concerned. It does sound very much like things that are done during an EA...especially if she doesn't want to talk about it and is being distant. But, it could very well be something else. I know for myself, I go through different periods of emotions that are hard to deal with regarding the EA. I went through this last weekend when I was in a women's prayer group. I felt horrible about myself..(thinking about what I've done and felt like a horrible person).. and it took me about 3-4 days to get over these feelings.

And the keylogger? I would think about changing the password so she can't turn it on or off? Don't know if you can do that as I'm not familiar with keyloggers.

But, you really NEED to talk to her! I would sit down and talk about your concerns. Don't let her get away with her words of... "I'm dealing with things...I don't want to have to go over it again with you.". Tell her gently that you really have concerns with how she is doing and that you want to talk about it with her and want to be there for her. Above all, don't accuse (if you don't have the facts)! I know that would make me shrink back if I were accused of another EA!

I will be praying for you and your wife.

I've tried exactly that, 2BN. EXACLTY that. Told her that I love her, I'm worried about her, and I want to help work through whatever problems there are. NO accusations of any kind whatsoever.

And that was when I got the response from her that I'd mentioned above. Bluntly, I was shocked...and that was the end of our conversation. I hadn't heard a response like that since she was still foggy from her EA.

I KNOW that a lot of the stress is our kids...and I've been doing everything I can to help deal with that, and to make sure that her and I are working TOGETHER to deal with those issues. But I don't know...I could be making a bigger issue of this than it is. All I can do is to keep doing my best to deal with things, and to let her know that I'm here for her.

Hi everyone...It sounds like for the most part everyone is doing very well. Owl, hopefully your W is just going through a time of needing to have her own thoughts. Don't jump to conclusions. I know that my EA began an amazing journey of soul-searching for me. Maybe for her, too, and she is still in that process.

2B I haven't caught up on your posts on the recovery side. I logged into the usual page here and saw that there was a post so this is as far as I've gotten. I hope all is well for you - sounds like you are going back to counselling. I have been seriously giving that some thought at least for me individually, but have so far not acted on it. Life has been very stressful as of late - time is always an issue....

I do not have much new to report on my situation. Things are status quo, both of us are dealing with our own issues. My H had a rough summer which has tended to make me withdraw. In the past (before my EA) I spent a lot of energy supporting him and working with him. For some reason that energy has been zapped. I think it's because I've had my own issues that I've been working on. I have always been the "even-keel" one, and been able to be there for him and his problems. The very odd thing is, is that it doesn't seem to bother him that I'm not as attentive. Maybe he, too, just wants "alone" time to work through things. As in Owl's situation, too, what do you think? Do you think it's imperative that we always share what is going on in our thinking? Couldn't it be that sometimes we need to work things out as individuals?

Owl - Well, it sounds like you are being supportive and doing the right things. But, I don't understand why she gave you the response she gave you. Has she done this in the past unrelated to having the EA? Just wondering if this is her way of dealing with things. And I would be concerned about the keylogger as well if you noticed things "missing". Have you asked her about the keylogger?

I haven't asked her about the keylogger. Again, no matter how I asked about it, she would have taken it as an accusation which is what I was trying to avoid.

She (like me) does have a habit of internalizing how she deals with stress (tends to try to deal with it herself) but we've BOTH been doing so much better about it that this took me by surprise.

I'll try reaching out to her again on things...we're talking about doing a date or something this upcoming weekend, so perhaps that might help relax her enough to talk with me.

Thanks for the advice 2BN.

Hi Cards! Good to hear from you.

Quote

Do you think it's imperative that we always share what is going on in our thinking? Couldn't it be that sometimes we need to work things out as individuals.

Cards - I've found it better for me to be open with my husband regarding my thinking. I have had to be open with him regarding what I was dealing with. If you haven't checked my posts out on the recovery board...I was still having major struggles searching online for the OM wherever I could search. I have stopped and have sought my husband's help. He has been supportive in helping me through some issues as mentioned a recent issue in one of my posts above on my emotions during/after a women's prayer group. But, I am going back to counseling (on my own)to get some help with some issues. I've only gone once so far and am going back today.

I also read 2 books - "Breaking Free" by Beth Moore and am finishing "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things". Both of these books have been a MAJOR help to my recovery and helping me to see some things about myself.

Maybe IC would be good for you Cards if you've been considering it?

Well, since I've read the new posts, I would probably be a little concerned, too. Don't minimize the effects of stress. Stress can make a person withdraw and question things - BUT it doesn't necessarily mean they act on them. You 2 have come back together and strengthened your M over the last year. Try to find out what you need to know, but respect her need for her own thoughts. I would not even utter the words EA to her. Surely when you questioned her she understood your concern???? Did she not give you ANY reassurance?

Hey Cards, nice to hear from you...I'd missed your first response to me as I think we were cross posting then.

She's made some small gestures to reassure me, but she's actually made it clear that she's just not wanting to talk about whatever is bothering her at this point. I'm not sure if it's the stress with the kids, or something else. I could be making something out of nothing...I admit it. At this point, I'm not going to get confrontational, as I have nothing to be confrontational about. With the keylogger, I'll simply hold off and see if it continues...and if it does, I'll see if I can find a way to further disguise it or set it up so that it can't be stopped from the process menu. We'll see what happens.

Thanks for letting me bend ya'll's ears...just keep us in prayers. I'll let you all know if something further happens.

Update-

No major revelations. I know that most of the stress in our lives right now is being caused by our oldest kids...and my wife and I teamed up and gave them an ultimatum yesterday about behavior and expectations for living in our household.

I'm thinking now that I'm just getting too frazzled by all of the stress and worrying over nothing as far as any problems between my wife and I.

I'm going to just try to relax and quit worrying so much about things...keep working on doing the right things for us, but at the same time just try to focus on those things and stop worrying about anything else.

2BN, Cards, and Sys- Hope ya'll are doing well.

Owl - Sounds like you have the right attitude. Teenagers can be a major stress at times and getting on the same page with your W sure helps.

Is your W still being distant or has that passed?

Things are doing well on my end. I had a good IC session last week and feel that I'm making some progress. Have you or anyone had an "early childhood recollection" evaluated in one of your counseling sessions? I found it interesting and felt it related very much to why I make the choices I made. She stated that it was my "style of life" that was set at that young age.

2BN-
Saw your 'greetings' post, and then it disappeared.

Yup, I'm still here...LOL.

Things are going OK...kids are still creating a lot of stress, but we're doing our best to deal with it. Wife has commented to a friend (female! LOL) that I'm tired and irritable a lot lately, which may be true to a degree, but I sure hadn't thought I was as bad as she's made it out to be.

I'm not sure what to think about anything at this point. I guess it's just that my wife is recovering a lot faster from all of this than I am...which is no surprise when you think about it.

Hope things are going well for you friend...as well as Cards, Sys, and everyone else.

Owl - Glad to hear you are doing OK.

I'm doing well for the most part. Some days I struggle with thinking about the past, but then I try to push forward and snap myself out of "looking back". Right now, I'm in that stage of "1 year ago" today I was in the midst of the EA with the OM and I remember certain dates and conversations. I wish I didn't get reminded or that my mind wouldn't think there.

And I'm really trying hard not to mention these reminders to my husband, but it's hard not to when they bother me!

Hope everyone else is doing well!

So is your 'looking back' a wishful (I miss him) kind of thing, or is it a remorseful (I wish this had never happened) kind of thing?

Well, the EA and OM's name aren't taboo in our house...we'll occasionally talk about what happened or mention OM in context of what happened or in reference to some of the online game stuff, so I'm not clear on the not mentioning this to your husband thing.

Quote

So is your 'looking back' a wishful (I miss him) kind of thing,

No. It is not a "missing him". It is more like the triggers and reminders, and they lead to thoughts about a conversation that happened between OM and me. I don't feel an "I miss him" when these reminders happen. Something comes up and reminds me of something during the EA. It bothers me because I still get these reminders, and then I feel I must verbalize them to my husband. He will talk with me regarding this, but I feel as if maybe I do too often. Most everyday there is some mention of the EA or the OM. It may not be anything lengthy, but most often every day it occurs. An example would be that my husband's parents had just been on vacation in the area where the OM works. As they talked about the city...how could I not be reminded? It didn't even cross my husband's mind...but it did mine. Then those thoughts lead to reminders of conversations I had with the OM.... I have to tell myself to STOP to get the thoughts that flow into my head OUT of my head.

I think these reminders may be stronger now because I often think of things in terms of dates and this was all happening 1 year ago from today. And then I thought this morning...2 years ago tomorrow was the date OM1 came to see me. The last 2 years of Octobers were not good months!

Whoa!

Thought the board was kind of dead so I haven't been checking in!

Sorry to hear you're having a bit of a time Owl, sounds like maybe the level of stress in the house might be catalyzing both you and your W's behavior?

I can relate. Things have been wonderful for me and my W. Better than ever really. That said, I do get the occasional twinge of doubt. Or I find myself reflecting on how things were -especially right after D-Day. There are a few triggers for it. Some revolve around the game -she plays sometimes during the day and talks with a number of our guildies -some of whom are men. It really doesn't bother me, but if I get just a touch paranoid, some of those old feelings rise to the surface. Could this be part of your case to?

It's weird how some things get me thinking about how it might have ended up for us. On D-day we had scheduled haircuts. Despite everything, we went anyway. Now, whenever we go in to get haircuts, I think about that day. It doesn't really bother me, but it does keep it in mind. Also, on that day, I took our kids to buy my W a valentine's day gift (of all things). When she wears the jewelry we picked out, it reminds me of how I was feeling that day (I don't want to tell her that b/c it would hurt her and the kids -it's just a tiny thing for me really -and frankly a fresh reminder isn't always a bad thing).

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that there are a million little triggers for the BS, ones that we aren't even always conscious of. When these things pop up, I find it helpful to ask myself if I'm being rational about it or am I imagining there is more to it than there is.

I do hope for your sake that she will talk to you about what's on her mind. Regardless of what it is, since she knows it bothers you, she should be open with you. I'm sure you heard it before, but one of the definitions of dishonesty in a marriage is that it's not just lying, it's concealment. That could apply to whatever it is that she is keeping from you. Not trying to lawye ryou up on it, but she has to know that she's only making things worse by not talking to you.

Hi Sys - Seems we were posting at the same time. It's good to hear that you and your wife are doing so well!

Interesting how you have many triggers as well. I guess this is normal and most likely will occur for awhile. Your post made me feel a little better about the triggers and thoughts I get at times. My husband doesn't really think about it as much anymore...only when I bring it up. I think that's why I think I shouldn't bring it up to him as much because... why make him think about it too?

CARDS, 2BNormal...there is a post here by a gentleman named Barge who's wife had an EA...while it wasn't online, I still thought that perhaps you might be able to provide him with some insight on your feelings and such during the EA and withdrawl....calling you out my friends!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Owl, I thought you would find this of interest:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/11/3/115030/460

Hey Owl! I haven't been on here is quite some time....not even browsing until today. I'll take a look over there...

I posted today over on the Recovery Board.....

Hi All if anyone is still around.....

Triggers.....my EA started around this time last year. Almost everything associated with the holiday season right now is triggering me back to conversations and times spent with OM. Amazing that after so much time has elapsed. I guess it just speaks to the depth of "emotional" affair. What an impact....

DEAR Cards.
I am SO GLAD that you posted an update.
I have wondered OFTEN how you are doing---wondering if you are still coming here and reading. (And wondering how the others that had posted here are doing also.)

This thread has been such a Safe Haven for so many of us.
It is not a place where we condone one another's bad behaviour but a place where we understand one another's emotional needs.

I quit posting way back last Spring because I was continuing my online affair and it didn't seem right,
what with all of you that were going through withdrawal.

I am officially in WITHDRAWAL now...since Nov 22. I will explain later.

I had lost my ID password so had to get a new one.
I also had to open a new email acct because MB would not
let me get another ID using the same email address.
My previous ID was ItWontRainAlways.

I wrote Lemonman an email, asking him to post HIS STORY and also told him about the OM and asked him to post it on his ADMIRATION thread but he didn't so I will here.

This is what I wrote him:
"By the way, I had an online affair with an older man that I went to school with many years ago...that recently ended because the OM had to give his password to the lady that lives with him in order for her to access his computer....soooooo all email between us has stopped and
I think I am in what is called WITHDRAWAL...we had a wonderful caring loving friendship and I will miss him. (And NO husband doesn't know)

We actually got together two times when he was back for the school alumni.
NO SEX but lots of kissing and hugging. (And even though that sounds like I am a BAD person, I actually am a good person that was on the WRONG road for awhile.) I probably still would be if he hadn't STOPPED the communication.)

Like Cards and the other ladies here, I am a good wife, daughter, sister, mom and grandma. This was just an escape from reality I think....and it felt SO GOOD to be admired and loved by someone else...(H is often a grouchy & negative man, this man treated me like a goddess.(well a SPECIAL lady for sure) "

Cards, I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I WROTE THERE.

I will post OM's email later.
It is just so strange not to be able to email him any more.

No one but he or she who had been there, can understand the emotional heartache and void when the OM or OW is no longer in our lives. They gave us attention, affection and friendship for many months.

We gave a portion of our heart to them and it is difficult to fill that VOID.

Cards, I wonder if you have had any contact whatsoever with the OM since you first started this thread?

Your 'sister' in all of this
Mary

Mary....

It is great to hear from you! Of course I remember you, and had often wondered where you went. It has been a very strange year for me and it sounds like it's been that way for you too! My EA seems to have been the beginning of a process for me. It has been complicated, and yes, I did falter. I truly believe that I had to take some additional necessary steps in order to have greater understanding about myself. It has been a long process which I am still in the throes of, and I am amazed that a year later this is still an issue in my life. I know this isn't very clear, I will elaborate more later. Right now you need to hear about getting through withdrawal!

I am so glad you found the strength to move forward. Yes, it is so hard to let go of something that meant so much and gave us what we needed. All of us here know EXACTLY how you're feeling. You need to go back and read all the links & info about withdrawal. It is a VERY hard time, but it will get better every day. Trust me...IT WILL!!! You are very early on and I know it's extremely painful. Just get through each day, one at a time. I can vividly remember those first weeks of withdrawal. I had physical withdrawal & emotional withdrawal, but it gets better. Do the best you can to keep yourself busy and think of other things. I know it's easy to say, but time is the best thing on your side.

Keep posting here....I will watch the site for you. I'm pretty sure that I can identify with anything you're feeling.

Cards-

Very nice to see you again friend!!! I hope that you're doing alright. I honestly think that triggers are the reason they say that it takes two years to recover from an A...the first year is spent repairing the relationship, the second is spent learning to deal with the triggers.

What kind of triggers are you dealing with? Hope all is well in your R with your husband still. I can imagine it's hard to deal with especially when things happened around a major holiday.

My wife doesn't really talk about when she triggers...in her case, I really do think she's put it out of her mind 99% of the time. We talked a week or so ago when a show came on that kind of brought things up. I told her I didn't care much for the show because of that...she hated the fact that I still triggered on things like that now, even though I didn't overreact at all. She really just feels guilty whenever something brings it to mind. But we ARE able to joke about things occasionally to.

Again, keep posting if it will help you friend. It's nice to hear from some of the people who helped me out too.

Mary-

I don't think I was on the site before when you were, but I do hope things get better for you. The withdrawl can be tough...but keep to your guns, and listen to the advice of those who have been through it. You've reached out to Cards...I've got a lot of respect for her working through things.

Right now, just stick to NC, and do the best you can to manage your stress. Try to get out and do what you can...the more you can work out and wear yourself out, the less time you'll have to sit and hurt. And it's also a great way to try to help yourself sleep during this kind of time too. Hang in there...you CAN make it through this.

Of everyone that has written on this thread, you OWL are the one I feel the most sorrow for.

The rest of us are selfishly 'whining' about missing the OM and you, dear friend, are the spouse of an unfaithful wife.

I am just sooo sorry for the pain you have endured.
I don't even want to think of what it would be like if my
husband knew.

Cards, please tell us how the contact went with the OM.
I really would like to know. And I have read this thread through several times and come here to MB every day looking for similar problems and advice.

I said I would post the OM's final email and here it is. It seems he is keeping the door kinda open. He is in FL from Oct til May, then back to Ohio.

"first chance i have gotten to write.............here is why you cant send emails.......but
dont worry i know you are thinking of me and i am thinking of you..........in Cinncinati, for 'Jane' to get to her emails she has to log on through my account.........so i had to
give her the password........as such she can look at anything i have in the box.......
so i thought it best to just do away with all emails until i get home in the spring
and establish a new account........

i know she sent you her email address...........the night before we left (for Thanksgiving holiday in Ohio) she said she had a question to ask me...........so she says.........is there something still going on
with Mary *****........and I said yes...........she is my gardening and flower advisor........we exchange
plants........she trusts my financial advice........and i give it to her when she asks..
i said that is it..............now i dont know what she thought.....but that was the end
of the discussion........

so with your husband changing to working at home and with this i think it best to cool it for a while until I can
figure out something ............this does not change anything between us........you
are still my special flower........and i am your old woodie tree..........love you......xxxxxxxxxx
00000000000000000000000000000000"

Well, that is it. I of course did not respond.
He has sent a few 'funny forwards' but no emails.
I don't even want any, his final note was sufficent for me.

P.S. What I just wrote about not wanting any notes from him;
I don't think that is true. I do. Why else would I keep checking my email account hoping for a message?

Mary-

If you're still receiving emails from him, then you're still in contact. If you're still maintaining a 'secret' email account, then you're still in contact.

I don't mean you any harm or disrespect friend, but you know what I'm gonna say.

You have GOT to break it ALL off. Delete your email accounts that OM is capable of sending emails to. Change your phone number if he knows it, etc... Delete your IM accounts with him as well.

Right now you can't see telling your H the truth...but please trust me and understand that it's GOING to happen at some point...read around on this site and you'll realize that your H WILL know the truth eventually...what matters most is HOW he learns it. If you're honest about wanting to help him and minimize the damage done by your EA, you need to tell him yourself. If he finds out on his own, it's FAR worse. Take it from a man who's been there.

Honestly...I really feel if you want to do your best to make things right, now is your chance. Tell your H the truth about what's been going on. Tell him WHY you want to delete your email and IM accounts, and change your phone #. Tell him how much you regret what you've done. Be honest about missing OM, but at the same time this is your chance to change the focus OFF of OM and onto your H. Helping HIM deal with his hurt/grief will help you get past your own. And at the same time, with HIS help you can make NC stick for real. Not just play at it...but really do it.

Don't come up with 'reasons' why you shouldn't do it...because in the end you know that you're really just rationalizing excuses for yourself not to face the consequences of your actions. (NOT a 2x4...an honest assessment of how most people react in your situation) Don't 'wait' to tell him until the time is better...there is NEVER EVER a good time to hear this...but the best time is when YOU go to HIM for help, instead of him confronting you with the truth.

Thank you for your kind words. I'm not anything special...your H too is capable of dealing with this. Especially if you can support him. It's actually pretty amazing what can happen if you both focus on helping each other more than focusing on how much you're hurting yourself. Take it from a voice of experience on this one.

I hope others can join in on this thread to help you out my friend.

NC means NC, I truly wish my WW would do an NC letter, she has continued NC, but I believe an NC letter would help ease her mind. You also must confess to your BH, and be prepared for all He** to break out. Be patient and understanding.

Good Luck

Cards! I'm soooo glad you posted!!! I've been thinking of you because I am experiencing the VERY same as you!! Wow!! I really didn't think it would be this tough almost a year later, but the holidays are hard. I am triggered by soooooo much....so many thoughts of conversations revolving around the holidays! So many of the same events as last year that I remember telling the OM, and of course all of our foolish wishful dreams! I am sooo hoping that once I get past Christmas I'll be OK. The day after Christmas was when the OM's wife found our emails! I can never forget how horrible that felt!

I had a horrible day today! I did something I wish I never did. It's a looonngg story, but I sent the OM a forward about something I felt he needed to know ...well HE REALLY didn't need to know....but these triggers and stuff really had me down and I just did it! I have kept NC since April and now this!!! Well....long story short...I had to pick up my husband about 2 hours later after I sent this forward ( I wrote NO personal message...only a forward of something). Turns out my husband looked at me and said..."don't you have something to tell me????" I said what???? He said he got a call from the OM!!!!! The OM told him I sent him this forward and he had promised my husband months ago that if I ever wrote again he would call my husband! The OM kept his promise! Well, I NEVER remembered that! My husband had no idea who it was calling, but the OM kept saying his name and he finally had to say...I'm BAD (OM's name)!! My husband thought that was very fitting!

I told my husband my intent of the forward and asked him my forgiveness. I had truly not wanted a reply from the OM! It was still soo WRONG and I should have never sent it.
After that, I felt a release of sooo much and felt this incredible love for my husband that it was sooo unreal! I know I messed up, but we both know that it will be OK!

Funny thing is ..when I picked up my husband, it was to go to a funeral. I was crying all the way there because of the mistake I did today! My husband was so sweet and said not to worry because I looked "perfect" for a funeral.

Let me know how you are doing Cards! I really hope these triggers will get better for both of us!

Mary -
I don't think I have ever talked to you and I have been on this thread for quite sometime. What Owl says is true. You must establish NC for you to progress.

I ended all contact with the OM in April (2005)...after not doing so well with NC for 4 months. We still kept the doors "open" from January - April, and I see that with what you wrote as well. Believe me, I know how very hard it is to keep NC. I know how it feels to WANT to leave a little door "open". If you read my post above, I just messed up after about 7 months of NC! However, the OM so very quickly informed my husband. I KNOW NOW it's really OVER and there cannot be anymore more contact from the OM as well!

It's a long road through withdrawal, triggers, etc. VERY hard! But it can be done!

Hope I can be of help to you in some way as both Cards and I experienced much of the same having an online affair

edited to add: I forgot the MOST important thing! It's so important to tell your husband! If you are serious about ending ALL contact with the OM, your husband needs to know to hold you accountable. It wasn't until I told my husband everything of how I kept that little "door" open from Jan - April that I was able to move forward. I don't know if you read any of my posts from way back then, but I struggled big time with the NC! I KNOW how you feel! But, you must tell you husband.

[color:"blue"]^^^^bump^^^^ [/color]

2BN-

Nice to hear from you friend...although I'm sorry to hear your recent issues. I'm glad to hear that OM at least kept his promise and notified your H. I can imagine how painful your conversation with your H must have been after that. It sounds like your H is doing his best to handle this the best way that he can as well.

What you did is every BS's greatest fear for a long time after an A. A 'phishing trip' if you will, to see if OM would bite. I've had that same fear for quite a long time, as you know. That my wife (or OM) would resume contact. In my case, there was no 'promise' between OM and I. He DID finally send an email to my wife asking her to honor HER promise and to break off contact at the end...but I truly don't know that I'd ever find out if contact resumed between them until it was too late.

Please try to remain strong...for yourself, for your husband. You're a great person...just work on doing the right things, and try to get your mind off the triggers if you can.

I was curious if your triggers (and Card's) were of the 'missing what we had' variety, or if they were 'God, what was I thinking' types?

Quote

A 'phishing trip' if you will, to see if OM would bite.

No I can honestly say it wasn't this. My only expectation was for him to read and not reply. I did not want or expect a reply from him. The forward had to do with the forum we met on. I had informed the forum/site of my situation with the OM on there and as a result, the forum made some needed changes to prevent my situation from ever happening again on their forum. I wanted him to know that the forum administrators knew (of our situation) and that the changes on the forum were a result of my prompting.

Maybe I didn't need to send that on to him...but I had been writing on that forum (with my husband's knowledge) for the past several months and all of a sudden the OM shows up on a thread that I wrote on. He uses his old S/N in which he had specifically told my husband he would not use again because he re-registered under a new S/N. I know about his new S/N but the OM doesn't know I know it. So why all of a sudden did he show up with his old S/N on there??? Except to show me that he knows my S/N??? I really don't know. But I was extremely upset and have been thinking and pondering about sending him this information since then. This all happened a month ago. Yesterday for whatever reason (OK a dumb reason!!)...I just sent it on to him

Anyways....the triggers have to do with just remembering. Not wishing back to the times of the EA. It's more of a painful remembering for me and wishing I never went through what happened.

edited to add: Also, my husband was really great yesterday. He understood why I sent that to the OM, however, he wishes I told him what I was thinking. After the OM's call to my husband, I really do realize it is OVER. It was the ultimate in closure for me.

Maybe this thread has been too much of a Safe Haven for us WW having online affairs.
This is the first I have been TOLD to confess to my H.
Thanks Owl and Eagle15 and 2BNormal..(Cards also)
I PROMISE to give it serious thought. (And 2BNormal, I sure do remember you and your struggle to go non contact and your withdrawal pain.)

This may be the perfect time what with my H starting to work from home. (His regular job can now be done from the Internet on our computer at home.)
I have very little chance to be on the computer now that he is using it the majority of the time.

It is just so hard for me to be MEAN to OM or H...Man, this is hard.
(And yeah, I know from reading here that I am being MEAN to my H whether he knows it or not.)

I think many times WS are given advice SO CASUALLY to just stop all contact with OP. As if it were such a simple thing to do; not realizing the depth of feeling us WS had for the OP.

What if you (especially the old timers here giving advice) were told your reading and posting here at MB forums had to COMPLETELY STOP. That it was taking too much time from your family and all the many problems and struggles the good people were having here (that you were involved in helping) was taking too much space in your minds and affecting your marriage.

What if you were told you could NEVER come back here again?
No final message to say goodbye...No CLOSURE; JUST STOP.

I know for me, reading and occasionally posting is almost like an addiction.
When this site was down or my computer wasn't working; I missed MB.

So anyway, I am just using an analogy that for the WS to no longer have contact
with a person that has taken up a lot of their time and heart space, it is VERY VERY
difficult (NOT EASY AT ALL) when we are no longer communicating with them and to
think of a LIFETIME without any communication whatsoever.

CARDS, I (and others) would like to know what happened with you and contacting the OM after all that time and why you thought you needed to.
Did it help you to get over him?

Quote

What if you (especially the old timers here giving advice) were told your reading and posting here at MB forums had to COMPLETELY STOP. That it was taking too much time from your family and all the many problems and struggles the good people were having here (that you were involved in helping) was taking too much space in your minds and affecting your marriage.

Actually Mary, that has happened before when the
BS wants the WS to stop being on line at all. Sometimes that has to happen to ensure the comfort of the BS.

Quote

it is just so hard for me to be MEAN to OM or H...

Mary - I figured out that I do remember you by looking back at the beginning of this thread! I had to jog my memory!

I do know very well what you are saying about how hard it is to be MEAN to the OM. Think of it as not being mean though. Think of it as a protection for your marriage and for the OM as well (he's not married right?) It's an absolute must to do this. I HAD to change my thinking to this to move past it. I also think of it as a protection for the OM and his family. I don't want to ruin his marriage!

Yes it's hard to stop and have NC. I can tell you how very hard it was for me to NOT LET GO! It was hard for the OM as well. We had short conversations and tried everyway possible to keep that "little door open". Then it all stopped for about a month until I received this email from the OM about an update of his son and a situation I had asked him months prior to let me know. At that point, I KNEW I had to tell my husband of this email and for us to take action! I pray that you will see this.

Mary - as I read through that email of the OM you posted...it reminds me so much of the silly stuff and the emotions we think we have for the OM. I know they feel real and we feel this emotional connection with the OM. I know you feel you will be missing something if you let go. But you have to let go of him!

Please...while you are not communicating with the OM during this period while he is away...tell your husband. Find the strength to do so. You will only be able to move past this OM if you do so.

I sure would like to know the answer as to why some of us just don't say goodbye and move on.....I am including myself in this. I can only think that something was reached inside so deep, making it seemingly impossible to let go. I think this is one of those brain-wired gender differences. I have read that often women require counselling to let go of affairs, and even on this site it is said that withdrawal and the whole process is generally harder for women than men. So???

2BN, I do understand, how, after 7 months you would make contact. I have found myself continuing to work through my issues, understanding what I need, trying to put other things in my life to fill those needs. Yet, still, OM is there. Despite all this time and CLARITY of what was, and what is, and what would ever be, OM 'shadows' me. For those of us who cannot seem to emotionally break the ties, I think the only solution is time & no contact. But how much time?

The other factor that could be helping with all this is our H's/M's, of course. For whatever reason, they are not getting to us. Maybe we are not allowing it, maybe they are not trying......As long as we feel that loss of what OM gave us, we will probably revert back to how they made us feel. The key is defining & filling that loss.

Owl, it does not sound to me like your W is having these problems like some of us. Don't let our stories cause you concern. She seems like she has handled it and has moved on. And even if she would have similar feelings like us, she is obviously working on your M and bettering herself just as we are trying to do. As long as we keep working & pushing in the right direction, we will get there. Just because we have lapses, does not mean it all starts back at day one. We all have good days & bad days, where we make good decisions & bad decisions. Granted, steady, continual contact will just draw the process out, but we can't focus on the fact of making contact. Just focus on the next day, week, month.

Mary, I cannot tell by your post if you have made the decision to end your EA, or if it is temporarily ended due to the email situation. Clearly, your OM does not consider it ended. Do you? It sounds like you have experienced a D-day but I did't read anywhere that you have broken if off or that he has. Did I miss something?

Cards - Yes, the OM is still there somewhere isn't he? I'm really glad you posted because I thought I was going crazy!
I also realized this yesterday....IF I would have checked on here first before I sent that email to the OM, I probably wouldn't have done so. The time you posted, Cards, was about the time I was sending the email to the OM!!

I think it's hard for us because we associate so many "good feelings" and how the OM made us "feel" that sometimes when we are stressed or things might not be going well with our husband's or family, we want to think back on what made us "feel good". But lately, these triggers have been hard.

I have been through some counseling, Cards. I don't know if it helped me a whole lot. It helped change some of my thinking, but ultimately it IS up to me! I have to want to move past and find the way that I will do so.

Mary - I agree with Cards about the email from the OM. It seems as if the door is left open. And also I was thinking of this......If the OM really wanted to contact you...he could use another "secret" email account? Don't you think he's playing games with you? Is this what you want? You really deserve soooo much better Mary!

I forgot to address the triggers. I do not feel at this point that the memories are 'triggers' for me. I think of that term as something that happened to me early on that would set me back into the addiction/withdrawal of the EA. It is more accurate to say that some things just bring back memories of conversations, etc. Granted, it's probably not particularly healing to have all these resurface, but I think I can 'feel' them and learn from them at this time. These are bittersweet feelings. I am at a place where I objectively "see" what my EA was, but know that it can/will no longer be. So, Owl, the bittersweet memories encompass both the ideas of 'what was I thinking!' AND 'how nice and good it felt'.

Cards - I think you summed up these memories pretty well and it's how I feel too. I think yesterday was the first time I told my husband that the OM was BAD! The OM, himself, called himself that when he was telling my husband who he was. What we did was so very wrong. We did some awful things that I do not wish anyone to EVER know! It's painful to think how I was a year ago and the things I did and said.

Those conversations we remember are hard...at least for me. Just too much over this time of year and with it ending right after Christmas.

Recently we have been dealing with some deaths and today one of my best friend's Dad died. We saw him last night and there were many people there from our church for support for the family. When I think of these times, I think...wow...what was I thinking a year ago? Where would I be if I would have left for the OM? I would not have the love and support and warmth of my family and those I love. Just a reflection my husband and I had yesterday. Yesterday and today really put things into perspective for me!

This is the first week my husband is going to be working from home all the time. Whew, gonna be hard to get some alone time to read and write here at MB.

I don't really know where I am in my life concerning this online affair.
I have known for a long time that it would be better if I just absolutely and completely stopped.

A little part of me feels relief that I cannot write him anymore and at the same time such a feeling of loss. I WILL NOT WRITE HIM; of that I can PROMISE.

Owl, and other betrayed spouses, I hope you realize this NEED some of us have (had) for romance, adventure, attention and affection from someone else has NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU.(It was not your fault in the slightest.) As hard as it must seem for you to believe, everyone of us love our husbands and he is the one we want to grow old with; it is just a FLAW inside of us.

And as you read 2BNormal, Cards, my and others messages, you can see we did become attached to the OM because of the
way THEY MADE US FEEL ABOUT OURSELVES. (Special and Pretty etc.) We knew all along that it was wrong yet we allowed it to continue.

And like Card's very first message in her thread. We are smart intelligent moral women.
SO WHAT HAPPENED TO US TO MAKE US DETOUR?

Cards, we would still like to know what happened when you contacted the OM after many months of No Contact.

Mary - I KNOW this is hard for you. I've been there, but I can tell you it gets soooo much better once you let go completely! It really does. I know you can't imagine not ever talking to the OM again...I felt that way too. Just could NEVER think that could be possible! But you know what? Me and countless others like you have been exactly where you are. NOW is the time to make your choice to completely end it. Do you really want to continue in this misery? What will happen if you continue? We all know it doesn't get better...it only gets worse the more of this "secret" you keep.

I am glad you have decided NOT to write the OM. It is a small step in the right direction.

I don't know how long you have been married or if you have children?

Mary - I forgot to add...I don't know how long this has been going on with the OM for you? Let me know ok? If you remember any of my story, I had 2 online EA's back to back. The first one lead to the 1st OM coming to see me and it was physical for 3 days before he went home. Let me tell you this...IT WAS NOT WORTH IT!!! I am disgusted to think back that I had this OM come see me! I do not wish for that to happen for you! The 2nd OM in my situation (this is one I had the hardest time letting go), I never met. Almost was going to meet him before it all ended. For that I am VERY THANKFUL!

Anyways, the point of this - is I want you to see that all of this with the OM is not worth continuing. I can look back now and say that. I'm here to encourage you OK? Feel free to write and I'll listen.

Mary-

You asked what us 'old-timers' (not sure if I qualify for that or not) would do if we were asked to suddenly and completely quit posting on MB. Assuming it really was for the benefit of my marriage, I'd do it in a heartbeat. And, I'd take the actions needed to prevent myself from coming back as well. I could make it so that I couldn't access this site from work, home, etc...

It's not really a good comparison tho. A better comparison would be in comparing asking a cigaratte smoker to stop smoking. To do so in order to save his health and his marriage. It's fighting an addiction to something that is unhealthy and doesn't really benefit ANYONE.

No one said it would be easy. But we HAVE said it would be worth it. And it would benefit ALL of you...you, your husband, and even OM. How would it benefit him? Simple...because once HE went through the withdrawl from the end of your relationship, it would free HIM up to start looking for someone that he CAN be with. He won't feel that way right now...trust me. He's as caught up in the addiction as you are. But BOTH of you can and will feel better once you've ended the affair and the truth is out there and you've done the things you've needed to in order to set your life right.

Think about it. No more secrets to hide. No more worry that H will find out. No more lies that you have to keep track of.

And I can understand your message about the affair not being the fault of the BS. And most of the time, I can understand and believe that. But for most of us, there will always be that lingering doubt. I ignore that doubt where I can, but on the plus side it reminds me that I need to maintain the changes I've made in my marriage so that we'll never end up back there again.

It DOES sound to me like God has created a situation for you to finally end the affair and come clean and start HEALING for the first time in a long time. It's now up to YOU to do your part...so start RIGHT NOW in planning out how you're going to reveal this to your H and how you're going to end the addiction, the lies, the worries, etc... First step...come back here and tell us your plan for coming clean and ending the affair. We look forward to your next post!

Well, Owl, no exact plan yet. I think my only plan will be to get through this painful withdrawal before I bring my H into this knowledge of what has transpired.

I want to be able to give him the emotional support he will need without my feeling sorry for myself. I don't know if you can understand what I mean but I THINK I understand.
It has to do with 'timing' and I want to wait til I am somewhat healed. Just today I had an anxiety attack realizing I CANNOT in no way EVER contact OM.

And I believe you are right, God just may be having HIS hand in this to MAKE ME BEHAVE. What with H now working from home, there can absolutely be NO phone calls from OM and limited time for me on the computer. Plus I CAN'T email OM.
That is a GOOD thing to happen to me.

2BNormal, you may have missed in my first reply to Cards, the other day, that I DID meet with OM two times for less than an hour. (He lives 5 hours away.) He stopped by to pick up some plants after this years school alumni and we went for a short ride and shared teenage like kisses.~blush~ I actually am not ashamed. I imagine that bothers me about as much as anything. WHAT HAPPENED TO MY CONSCIENCE? (My husband I and haven't shared PASSSIONATE kisses for so long I can't remember when.)

When I posted on this thread before I was "ItWon'tRainAlways",
my posts were in March of 2004.

This is from my first post:
"I feel so ashamed for letting this happen to me. Never in a million years, if you had told me last year that I would be involved with an older classmate from high school, I
would have said "NEVER".(I am 48, he is 57)

We started emailing after our school's alumni, I think I pursued him as I wrote the first email and he sure responded. He was a widow man for a year and sure liked me a lot and has been so wonderful to me. (So our email friendship has been going on for one and one half years.)

However, he has been in Florida this winter and has met a lady that he says 'Is very special and they get along so good'....His emails are getting farther apart, I think they may be staying together. (They are this year)

So now it is my turn for rejection.
And the part that makes me ashamed is I AM THE MARRIED LADY, it should have been ME that stopped this email affair, not him.

I go on with my life, like normal...No one knows this hurt I am feeling inside and YES I DESERVE TO HURT"

So here it is all this time later(om & I have been email friends for 1 1/2 years) and if I would have stopped the romance back then, I would be a lot better off today. I should have took everyone's advice last March, but no, I had to be weak and selfish and continue the emails and occassional phone calls.~darn~

P.S.I wonder how GENTLESOUL is doing?
And I'm still waiting to hear about Cards re-contacting the OM after all those months of 'sobriety'.

Gentlesoul hangs out over on the recovery board, bless her heart. I'll post over there and see if we can have her join in our fun here.

I can understand your desire to wait so that you can provide support for your husband...but I have to tell you that what probably helped my wife and I come together after OUR d-day was the fact that we both knew how much pain the other was in, and at least did what we could to manage things.

I knew she was hurting, and why, even though I'd never read a thing on how affairs work. I knew it was an addiction, and knew she was in withdrawl tho I didn't have a name for it. What I DIDN'T know was any way to judge how long or short it would last, nor how to deal with it from my angle. But the fact that she still cared enough about me to actually worry about how I was doing made a difference for me. It actually surprised me...and it led her to see that she truly was still "in love" with me as well within a few weeks.

Like I said friend...you can come up with tons of 'reasons' why not to come clean now...but the truth is there is no better time to do it. I DO think God has a hand in how this is to work out...I think that He is talking to you now.

Since you believe...stop now, and pray. And ask God what He wants you to do right now. Ask for His guidance, and His support. Listen to what He tells you. If you don't hear it...go to the Bible and read it. My honest thoughts are that you're already hearing what He is telling you to do...you're just scared to do so. But remember this...He has nothing but the best wishes for ALL of us.

Pray, plan, and then act.

I didn't expect that you HAD a plan right now. What I'm asking you to do is to MAKE your plan now. And bring that here.

Please, give this all some deep thought. And prayer.

Mary - Ok, now I do remember you writing that you met the OM.

You mentioned you want this "perfect" timing to tell your husband of the OM and that you want to be somewhat healed first. Let me share a little about what happened to me to help you understand that yes, in your mind, you want it that way, but it's really NOT the best way.

I'll back up to July 2003. This is when the 1st OM contacted me. He contacted me through classmates. NO I didn't go to high school with him, but I met him while vacationing with my family when I was 16. I was intrigued that this man...after all these years said he had feelings for me! Is this a little how you felt? Thoses lovey gooshy feelings like when you were a teenager? It brought me right back to those exciting feelings you feel as a teenager! Well, I fell for all his words and lines and within 1 month I declared I loved this man. After all I hadn't felt these feeling in such a long time and they felt good! My husband didn't ever tell me these things! It all "felt" so right. Then the "plan"! He found a way to get to my state (he lives 1100 miles away!) for 3 days. Wow I couldn't believe WE would actually be able to meet after 25 years! I planned, I schemed to make it work! However, when the OM came here, all my plans started to fall apart on the very first day! My husband just knew something was up but couldn't figure out what. It was an absolute nightmare over 3 days....but I STILL tried as hard as I could to be with this OM as much as I could. When he left, I thought I would absolutely die!

My husband kept searching and trying to figure out what was happening and he dug into my cell phone records to find out I had been calling someone. I confessed to my husband about this OM coming to see me and I told my husband I would tell the OM the very next day it was over!

I did tell the OM it was over! But it was devastating that everything didn't turn out as I wanted....(are you hearing the me me ME in all of this??) Well that lasted less than a week! I contacted the OM again and told him I still wanted to continue to email and talk and he agreed.

And my downward spiral of horrible events kept going on from there. I started to see that this OM was not the "ideal man", but I was still addicted to him. I didn't care that he was not my "ideal" after all I wanted to hear those words he spoke to me. I was miserable!

Then...I sought help on a Christian forum...which is where I met OM2. After about a month on there, I started to correspond with this man who was to become OM 2. Wow, someone understood me and wanted to help me! He prayed and listened to me everyday until I said good-bye to OM1. Well, OM2 and I were already attached to each other. What do we do? He did his job, but I felt that I still needed him because he "understood" me and he felt the same as well.

Less than a month of saying good-bye to the OM1, OM2 and I began our venture to where we should have NEVER gone. This OM was so much better with words than the first OM. I loved EVERYTHING he wrote and he was a Christian as well (the 1st OM wasn't a Christian) Within a month after I said good-bye to OM 1, I was declaring my love for OM2! How crazy is that????

Do you see that all I was seeking were the "feelings" I felt I needed and the "needs" I felt ONLY the OM could give me?? Don't get me wrong, I felt attached to this OM2 and even wanted to marry him. This is how I felt back then!

What I've learned is that these OM were really nothing "special". Any old OM would have done the trick!

But, my husband who I have been married to for 19 years...he is the one who deserves sooo much more than what I did to him! He has been committed to me for all these years! All during the EA's and even through the awful withdrawals, I still felt only the OM could provide what I "needed". I couldn't let go and give my husband the chance. I felt that if I did and give my heart to him completely, I would be betraying the OM. That's sounds strange as I type this now, but I really felt that way.

I sense this is where you are at Mary. You know what the right thing to do is, but you still feel a sense of loyalty to the OM. I completely understand that. And I feel if you don't tell you husband now, you are still going to "cherish" that sense of loyalty to the OM. This is why it's sooo important to tell your husband. I kept secrets for soooo long, and oh if I would have just not given in to write OM 1 again after he left, I would have saved myself alot of heartache and troubles.

I know you want to know about Cards and her re-contacting the OM...please don't use that for justification to contact the OM. What do you need to resolve with the OM that you feel you need to? I felt that need for closure as well as the OM kept the "door" open for 4 months after it all ended and we were able to discuss some things. But, in the whole big scheme of things, I don't think it was the right thing to do. If you tell your husband, you and your husband - together- can write a NC letter to the OM and end it once ahd for all.

OK - I've just written a book I think! Sorry for so much, but I just wanted to share a bit with you.

I'll be praying for you Mary that you will make the right decision!

edited to add: This OM is trying to pursue another relationship, but yet keeps you hanging on??? Mary - He doesn't sound like such an honorable guy....sorry to say that, but how fair is that to either of you, his new "friend"...let alone your husband? The OM needs to be free to lead an honest life. Don't you agree?

Mary - Here I am adding more for you to read! I forgot to mention about how you didn't feel and don't feel ashamed about meeting the OM and sharing kisses. I didn't feel ashamed either about meeting OM1! I cherished it and tried to remember every moment.

It's only now...looking back and seeing where I am now, from where I came from do I feel horrible and ashamed for what I did not only to me, but my huband and God! I feel horrible knowing that I wrote a "special" note in my handwriting to this OM the day he left. And I am sure he still has it as well as pictures we took of each other. Just knowing that they exist makes me sick!! My husband KNOWS all of this. I told him everything and today I love him sooo much! He has been a great help to see me through this.

Honestly, you will see it this way, ONCE you come through this! I NEVER thought I would feel how I do now. I just couldn't see it back than.

OK - ...enough for now...still praying for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am having to get on MB early before H gets on the computer for the day.

Thanks Owl. I must still have a 'working conscience' because your message sure made me cry.

And 2BNormal, this must be hard for you to be reviewing your
heartache from the past. Thank you so much for taking the time to care about me. You are SO sweet and kind and I am just so happy that you and your husband have healed; that he was able to totally forgive you.

I said earlier that I think some of us that turn to another man have a FLAW and part of it is a NEEDINESS to be NEEDED.
Even though our husbands appreciate and need us; we tend to want more.

It seems that you and your H have rekindled that first love and your H is filling that EN that OM once filled. GREAT.

I am wanting to hear from Cards of why she contacted OM after many months of not contacting him (if it helped her let go) not to have a reason to contact OM again. I promised in an earlier post that I won't. The only email I will ever send him will be a simple:
"Do not email to this address anymore, Thanks." That's it.

You are right in that he deserves to work on this new relationship and let go of me completely; close all doors.
(And windows.~lol~)

So Cards, we would love to hear more from you. I wonder if your H can read this thread? If so, it may not be a Safe enough Haven to really express your inner feelings.
I know the last thing you want to do is hurt him more.

Good morning Mary!

I would like to hear from Cards as well as what happened. I'm not sure, but I think it's hard for her to write on here much....don't know, but it seems that she got busy at work and that seemed to be why she didn't write much over these past months....but let's be patient, I'm sure she will answer you when she has the time to gather her thoughts and has the time to write.

Mary - I also wanted to let you know that my husband is not exactly meeting "my" needs just like how both of the OM did. It's different. I had to start getting the focus off of me and start to think of my husband. That really helped!! I try to see him how Jesus sees him and to love him how the Lord wants me to love him. It's only when I started to take all the focus off of me and "my needs" I felt entitled to that my love grew for my husband. He's only human and cannot meet all my needs so perfectly. He has done a great job though and we are still learning together. That has been the wonderful part. I KNOW he's trying and that's what's important to me.

Even after I failed the other day with sending that email to the OM, my husband was still by my side and I even sense we are closer now. We have had some really hard moments over this past year, and at times he still holds some resentment for what I did. It hasn't all been so great, but we are working together on it.

Anyways - Just wanted to share that with you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mary-

I have to honestly say that I'm not sorry that you cried. It does indeed indicate that you've still got your conscience...and that you probably still love your H very much too.

Again...so what is your plan? Have you done what I've suggested? Pray, plan, then act.

It's that simple friend. NOT easy...but simple. And you'll feel better than you can possibly realize right now when it comes out. Ask Cards, Gentlesoul, Dorry, Mrs Wondering, 2BN...they've been where you're at. I've not. They can help you understand better what you're in for from their viewpoint.

And I KNOW that God is talking to you right now...I KNOW this. Why else would you be here, on this site, RIGHT NOW...with all of these people who are ready to help you deal with things? That have been where you are...that have been where your husband is/will be? Realize that a vast majority of the time in our lives, that pain we feel is when we're resisting the path that God set us on. He doesn't expect us to be robots, but at the same time, He knows and wants the best for us. And we create so much of our own pain by fighting and resisting what we know we should do. And we give that pain up when we finally start taking the steps needed to fix things.

So, I'm not backing down friend.

What's your status? If you've not started, start now. Take some quiet time to yourself, right now. Find a room where you can go into and sit and pray. And listen to what you get back. Ask what you need to do, and LISTEN to what God tells you. Use that answer to make your plans...come talk with us when you have an idea on what you want to do, and we can provide advice and input on it...and then...ACT.

That simple...again...NOT EASY...but simple.

Mary - What Owl says is true. It's NOT EASY. But with the Lord as your strength you can do this!

Seek God. Submit to God. He will help you!

Here are a couple of verses to help you:

Quote

Romans 8:5-6
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace;

If you submit to God in this...His Word and His promise is peace!! Don't you want peace in this, Mary?

Quote

Isaiah 41:10
10 So do not fear, for I am with you;
do not be dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you and help you;
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

God is right there to uphold you and take you by your hand. There is nothing to fear. He will be your strength!

One more...I made this my prayer to help me submit my will to His:

Quote

Psalm 51:10-11
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God,
and renew a steadfast spirit within me.

11 Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.

Pray and seek the Lord, and He will lead you! He doesn't promise it will be easy, but He does promise He will be right there with you!

Mary, you out there? Hoping that you've taken some good steps forward friend!

Thanks Owl and 2BNormal.
Right now in my life, I think I am just in LIMBO.
(Edited to say, I did write on 'Lemonman's story' this
morning.)

However, I AM MORE CONCERNED ABOUT CARDS.

Something just doesn't feel right.
I am VERY CONCERNED that she is having some deep inside
emotional difficulty.

CARDS, ARE YOU OKAY? TALK TO US. WE ARE YOUR ONLINE FRIENDS. WE CARE VERY MUCH ABOUT YOU. VERY VERY MUCH.

Mary-

I really enjoy dealing with all of you...and Cards has been a truly great help for me.

But right now, please don't change the focus to her. You need to worry about YOU.

You're simply looking for a way to postpone what you need to do...again.

I'm not giving up on this friend...now is the time and here is the place...

Hi Mary - I'm not giving up on you either! I HAVE been where you are and I KNOW this attachment you feel for the OM. I KNOW you enjoy what he gives you in terms of EN's.

Can you tell us what you are in LIMBO about? What is your plan right now?

I care about you and want to see you get through this just as I have. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> PLEASE keep posting on here...I'm VERY concerned about YOU right now!

edited to add: Are you praying as to what God wants you to do?

Mary-

There is only one way out of limbo...taking action!

If you do nothing, change nothing, then nothing will change.

They say that action speaks louder than words. And that is true. I hear you say that you love your H, that you want to do what's best for both him and yourself. But I don't see you taking action to make that happen. Please don't take this as an attack...but I KNOW that if no one goads you to do the right thing, you're going to just sit where you're at now...letting your H meet some of your needs, and your OM meet the others when he can. And NOTHING will get better.

And your husband will eventually find out what's been going on...and the damage to your marriage will be FAR harder to repair then as opposed to you admitting to what has been going on and taking active steps to fix the problems.

PRAY about this friend..ask God what He wants you to do here...and quit fighting it and start doing it.

2BN,Owl, & Mary

Mary, I am fine, thank you for your concern. I am not done with this whole EA issue, but I have spent this WHOLE year healing myself, H, & M. It’s been a long process and continues….. I will elaborate on what transpired with NC another time, it is not relevant to what you need to hear right now. I do have to tell you that watching & reading for the last couple days has been unexpectedly supportive for me. I meant to just check in and see who was around, but I am buoyed up by your wisdom & strength. It has been very helpful. I felt as though I was plugging away pretty well, but Owl & 2BN your comments came at the right time. I suppose I posted because I was feeling weak. Thank you for reiterating what needs to be said. I so appreciate both of you and your journeys. Thank you!

Mary - Owl & 2BN are right, you should be focusing on YOU! Right now YOU need help & strength to do the right thing, to not have contact and come clean. Please listen to the advice. I know that right now you’re in a fog and it's very surreal and very hard to believe and "see" how being honest and having no contact is really going to bring you happiness. You believe you felt so much happiness from OM, but dishonesty and deceit is a very dark place that will eventually wear on your soul. I know this to be true, as do most of us WS here. We know EXACTLY what you're feeling, so PLEASE keep posting and let us help.

As Owl said, you have the perfect opportunity, right now, to end this. The timing of your H working at home and the email situation with OM is not coincidental. These obstacles were put in your way - God placed them there to help you. Use those helpful tools to deter yourself.

Cards - I'm so glad you posted again. I think you and I didn't expect to still be dealing with the EA at this stage! You posted on here at the right time for me as well. God is good with His timing! I so needed to hear how you were doing and that what I was experiencing wasn't crazy! It's good that we can draw strength from each other's experiences to keep moving forward with what we know is right.

Mary - God's timing is right. Cards didn't just by chance write on here and I didn't just by chance look on this site when Cards wrote. God's timing for you is NOW....! I know it sounds like we are really pushing you, but I can remember many months ago when I was struggling so very much with the NC and how Owl pushed me to do the right thing...and Cards kept encouraging me to do the right thing. It helped me so much to have their support on here! I honestly couldn't have done it without them...and God of course!

This IS the perfect time! The more you delay, the more you will waver in this! I KNOW that from experience! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It is so wonderful to hear from you Cards. It is obvious that you are still struggling from this EA. (You too 2BNormal)
If you ever want to talk more about it, you know we are here.

Owl, 2BNormal and Cards. Thanks for caring and not giving up on me. You speak of God's timing and it happened just now.
My H went into town for awhile so I had some computer time.

Om sent me this today (after 2 weeks of no messages) on my Yahoo acct I had set up last year, just to receive notes from him and I just couldn't stand it.
I know what all of you mean by back to square one in withdrawal & healing.

This is what he sent:
He wrote this:......tis true.......
http://www.alighthouse.com/day4.htm

I just had to stop this NOW. I want you to know your advice here has helped me; has given me the 'push' that I needed.
I just did something without hardly thinking about it first.

I wrote this reply:
"Do not send anymore emails. Thanks... This account is closed as of today...12-08-05"

I didn't want to just BLOCK his emails, I wanted him to know I would no longer accept or receive them. I am NOT mad at him; just think this is best for everyone.

I wasn't even sure if it was possible but I found the place in Yahoo to cancel the email acct by going to HELP. (It was called "cancelling your Yahoo Mail Personal Address Service") Was it HARD? Only God knows how HARD it was. VERY VERY DIFFICULT..(After I clicked on that CLOSE button, I went back and checked and it didn't work, I got sick. Chills and nausea.)

Yet I know in my heart it was the right thing for me to do. TO HAVE SOME CONTROL over this situation.

Ok I made the first step. However, on telling H, I will not tell him during Dec. I do not want Christmas to forever be a reminder. You can get on me again the first of the year. Ok Friends?

For now, please don't tell me again to tell him; it has to be when my heart is ready. I know the right thing to do.
I AM formulating a PLAN, I think I will probably write H and TRY to explain versus talking with him. (Then talk)

We are going away as soon as he gets back home from town.
So no computer until Monday

So thanks again and I hope I did the right thing to cancel my email account. I have a few doubts. (I am scared really of how it will be to NEVER hear from him again, REALLY scared.)

Mary....

Wow....I FEEL your pain, Mary. I emotionally & physically reacted just reading your post. I remember so vividly. You will feel sick and you will have withdrawal.

BUT....YOU ARE SO BRAVE!!!! I AM SO PROUD OF YOU!!! YOU took control....what STRENGTH!!!! I know you feel like crap right now, but in the long run you will look back and be proud of yourself that YOU took the stance and acted.

Be STRONG in the next few days....we will be here when you get back. It will be a tough few days, but you're now on the right path!!!

Bless you!

Mary!!!! I am soooo VERY PROUD of you for taking control of this situation and for doing the right thing! I have tears in my eyes right now! I really believe God gave you the strength to do this right now! You did the right thing by cancelling that email account!! Satan wants to give you those doubts that you are feeling...oh he's very good at that! Don't listen to those doubts...Listen to God! You did what God wanted you to do! Draw your strength in God!

I know how painful this is and how you feel right now! It hurts I KNOW! But you will make it through!

I do understand about Christmas and ruining it with your husband. Take some time to pray for the right words to tell your husband and the right timing to tell him.

We will be here when you return! I'll be praying for you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mary-

I only have a few moments. I do want to say WAY TO GO!!! on the establishing a real no contact with OM. Very good first step.

I can understand your concerns about not wanting to make Christmas a torture for your H going forward. My problem is that putting this off gives you a MONTH to not take these steps...there is no way that this is the right thing to do. You'd be better served by telling him NOW...and by busting your butt these next few weeks showing him how much you love him.

There is NOTHING you can do to spare him pain on this, other than taking ownership of what you've done, and taking ownership of helping him to heal from this damage. It doesn't matter when it is, what time of year it is. If you wait till then, he's going to wonder if your whole Christmas with him has been a farce...a facade that you simply put on for his benefit. I realize you want to help him by holding off, but it won't help.

Give him a REAL Christmas, by showing him that you love him NOW.

And doing so now gives you a few weeks to start the recovery...waiting another month just increases your chances of failure.

You've started well...not keep it moving now while you have some momentum.

Above all...do NOT, in ANY way, resume contact with OM. That will be the WORST thing to do for all of you.

And...keep praying.

Mary - I know you may not read this till Monday, but I have to agree with Owl. Waiting a month can increase your chance of failure. I know how hard it is to tell your husband though.

When the OM's wife found our emails on Dec. 26 last year (I found this out on Dec. 27)...I waited 2 days to tell my husband about the affair. I thought I could hold it in. I didn't know what I was going to do! But I was sooo miserable that I knew I HAD to tell my husband soon! I kept trying to email the OM over 2 days..and finally his wife wrote me and told me to stop!! I wrote her back and told her I'm sorry for hurting her and that I would stop. That's when I couldn't take my emotions any more and I broke down and told my husband. Was it hard?? You bet! He had no clue and he also had no clue at this time that I had continued communicating with OM 1 for 9 months after he thought it ended. I had sooo much to come clean with, but I knew the only way for healing to begin with me and our marriage was to tell him.

I just want to encourage you to pray and seek God in His timing for this. I believe it may be sooner than you want.

Anyways...on another note. Mary I think you have helped me in something! I have 2 yahoo email accounts in which I used, one for each OM and I have NEVER cancelled them and closed them out. NOW is the PERFECT time for me to do that! They have been "empty" for soo long and there is no need to have them active! I plan on doing that as soon I finish up typing this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Both yahoo accounts are closed! Yipeeeee!!!!
I should have done that months ago!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Awesome that you did that 2BN!

I know it is hard to let go of things a lot of times. And personally I think it speaks a lot to how far you've come that you did this without any real second thoughts...you just DID it!!

Don't you wish now you could have done that months ago when you were still dealing with things??

Mary-

I'd like to take the opportunity to point out to you several cases...all right here on this thread...where this has worked out very well for the couples involved. But in ALL of those cases, nothing at all was possible until the WS made the CHOICE to do something about the situation. To actively change what they were doing, end the A, come clean to the BS, and move forward with their marriage.

Look at CARDS...very similar situation to yours...asking you to take the same steps she did. She knows where you've been, and where you can go from here.

How about 2BN- Same thing. Been in your shoes...and she's BEGGING you to take the actions you need to take.

Gentlesoul and Beavis- Haven't heard from them in several weeks...because they're happily recovering, and were giving some AWESOME advice to those who needed it over on the recovery board.

Sysyphus- Again, don't hear much from him because things have done a complete turn around in his life. His wife started out just giving him a '90 day' chance....those 90 days have LONG been up, and they're doing GREAT last I'd heard.

Myself- My wife and I are doing a LOT better than we were. I don't know how much of my story I ever gave you...take a look over on the recovery board if you're interested in reading all the details. And my wife made the comment to a mutual friend the other day when he commented about how our marriage (he knows what we went through, he was one of my 'pillars' when I was dealing with this)...she told him that 'well, we went through a really horrible time, but like all marriages we have ups and downs, and we've been on the up for a long time now!".

I could go on...but rest assured that none of this would have been possible if any of the WS's in these cases had NOT reached the point where they finally decided to actually deal with what they've done.

Now it's your turn my friend. Personally, I'm hoping that three months from now I can add your name to this list when I try to help some OTHER person dealing with similar issues!

2BN...

That is so awesome that you closed those accounts! Each little step we take, strengthens us and gives us the resolve we need. It boosts our self worth, which I think in my case was becoming a problem. I am very proud of you.

I think it's amazing that even though we all are in different stages, we are of help to each other. Mary is at the beginning of her battle, but you drew off her strength to do something positive. I know you ALL have helped me so much during this entire year. During some of the time this year when I was so busy with work and other stresses it was easy to retreat into myself, when really I needed MORE support at that time. I am thankful that you all are here.

2BN, are you fighting off the OM holiday memories? I know the worst is yet to come for me.....Christmas Eve and the day after Christmas. I vividly remember spending much of those days with OM online. I remember the conversations...nothing important, just silly stuff....what we were cooking, etc. I think I will make a concerted effort to adjust those days in order to limit those thoughts.

Owl, I am truly amazed out how these memories are retained and linked to events in our minds. I remember early in the year when you talked about the 1 yr anniversary and how everything came back. I could not fathom how a year later you would thinking about the anniversary of those events. Your wife's EA was about the length of mine, and I remember hoping that I would not be thinking about it a year later. Now I see....I guess "important" events have a way of rooting themselves in our brains in order to create memory. I didn't know it at the time, but your experience was giving us the 'heads up' on what to expect.

Cards-

I think your idea of changing how you do things those days so that you don't have the chance to dwell on those thoughts or have fewer 'triggers' because the day seems similar makes VERY good sense. Perhaps do something out of the house where you can? Take a horse/buggy ride or something romantic with your H...anything so that you're not looking at the computer and remembering things.

I hope that if this 'forewarning' I'm providing you is accurate that it will provide you with some hope as well then. Things are easier on me now than they were then. My wife seems to be pretty happy too...and she doesn't seem to dwell on or even think about what happened in her case hardly at all anymore. So perhaps in a few more months you will feel that way as well...once you get past those first year triggers, I'm thinking that it gets easier after that.

For me, the holidays are Valentine's day and Mother's day. Because it was STARTING around V day for my wife...I don't know that they'd 'admitted things to each other yet' then or not, but I know that the attraction had begun by then for sure.

And I remember reading in her IM sessions with OM that on Mother's Day she sat there daydreaming about what kind of cheese cake OM would like (we took her to The Cheesecake Factory for M day that year). Which is rough, because I can also clearly remember sitting across from her that day, seeing her stare off into space, and asking her what she was thinking of (remember, I SERIOUSLY suspected by this time, but didn't have 'proof'). Of course, her response was "nothing, I'm just tired is all".

It WILL get easier as time goes on. Right now you sound like you're doing the right things, and trying to find a way to distance yourself from those triggers and memories.

Make NEW ones this year to replace the old ones!! Best medicine I can offer for you. Take those days and replace them in your mind with something truly spectacular this year! My money says it will make things soooo much easier for you later on too.

And perhaps I wouldn't use the word "important"...but definitely would say that "major" events would be accurate. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hello!!!
Thanks for the call-out Owl. Been taking a little break from the boards - the pain and anger gets overwhelming to me at times so I retreat a little bit sometimes.

Ladies, I'm sorry you're stuggling, albeit at different levels. The holidays especially can be filled with triggers. A year ago this week for me found me embroiled heavily in the affair and over the course of the next two weeks...speeding up to the awful turn of events that lead to our New Year's d-day. So, guess I know the feeling.

But we are doing great now. I'm very sorry the affair happened, but in a weird way, many many great things came from it. The best of which is that I re-kindled my really deep love for my H.

I really feel the only way we got here, was through complete no contact.

That first, beginning on Jan 10th, 2005 - all contact ceased completely. Totally. Nothing. No e-mails, no talking, no internet games....nothing.

And on that date, I drew the line in the sand. I said, this is the date I start becoming the person who will learn whether she wants to be married or not. Who will stand up and become strong, and ethical, and who will do everything I can to help my H get through this.

I confess I wasn't sure I wanted to be married a year ago. But through this site and reading, I came to the conclusion that as long as contact with FOM was there, I would never really know the answer.

Do you remember your wedding day? I do (pun not intended!). I vowed to love, honor and cherish until death did us part. I realize now I knew very little as to how much committment and work that would be. But it was a promise to him and to the Lord above.

And, so I decided that before I could walk away from the marriage, I needed to give it my very best shot to make it work. If it didn't, well at least I could feel better that I tried.

So glad I did. Because these affairs really screw with our heads. They revise history and mess with our perspective. And the worst is that they hurt the person we promised to cherish. It's wrong to be involved with two people, to deceive our H's.

This past year has been a learning experience for us. Every day of no contact brings new perspective. I have seen things clearer as the year has progressed. We have learned things about ourselves and about what marriage is all about.

One of the biggest things I have learned, is that marriage cannot make us happy. We have to be happy as individuals first. That comes from within. Then, we can share that with our H's, and vice versa. It isn't fair to place our individual happiness requirement with our H, or our lover. It is impossible for another person to make us happy.

We all have core values...those are what make us happy. And, I've spent this last year trying to get in touch with those.

Cards and 2BN - stay strong with no contact. It is the only way to finding your core and your happiness. Feelings after an affair can deceive. Virtually all of the time, they lead us the wrong way. I hope you can keep digging to find what is missing for you.

But, also, give yourself a little leeway in the holidays when it comes to feeling bad. It's normal to have triggers during the holidays. Doesn't mean you should contact FOM or anything, but those feelings are going to be there. Put them in the corner and move about your day so to speak. Acknowledge, but don't let it guide your actions.

We've also been working to reclaim the holidays with new traditions. Over thanksgiving we went camping with friends instead of the normal family get togethers. It was wonderful! No triggering memories.

Mary, I hope you can draw your line in the sand. It's going to hurt and honestly, withdrawls after NC are truly very hard. Those feelings are generated by the drug of the affair.

Feelings and perceptions following an affair, will lead you down the wrong path 100% of the time if you follow them. Logic should win during this time.

Everytime there is contact, it sets you back to square one in withdrawls. I read the e-mail from FOM Mary...I doubt he said goodbye. He just put you on hold for awhile because it was getting too uncomfortable at home. He cares more for his GF than he cares for you. Sorry. And he is using you to get a thrill of having two women. He likes deceiving his GF. Is that someone you can respect?

We can help you stand up and draw that line Mary. Until I did, nothing got better for us. It's extremely painful I know, but it has to happen.

And, you need to tell your H about this. If you are justifying not telling him because of the holidays...well, think of this. He finds out in January, that you lied to him throughout the holidays. Is that going to make fond memories for him then? Thinking how you smiled and lied throughout them? The line in the sand says...no more.

It's so worth it you guys. Marriages can be wonderful if you take the lessons from the fire. I've learned so much.

I've blabbed on and on here. Haha, gotta get to work. Sorry you are struggling, but hang in there. Keep learning from it. Recovery is lots of ups and downs.

Hugs,
GS

Hi all! And gentlsoul...it's sooo good to see you!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It was amazing the strength I had to close those accounts yesterday. I COULD NOT do that months ago! I just kept them open. There was nothing in either one...but still just empty. It's kind of like the accounts were some kind of strange memorial of the OM... it's like the "A's" are dead and all the activity that occured in those accounts are dead. Strange! I told my husband last night that I closed them. He thought they already were...but then again...he really doesn't understand about closing email accounts. So I explained...again!

Cards - as far as the holidays...yes so much with the conversations that I remember. This weekend my husband and I are going to a Christmas concert. We went to the same concert last year and I can remember telling the OM about it and sending him a link of the people that are performing. I also remember that same weekend going out to dinner with another couple and how the OM seemed "a little" worried that me and my husband were doing so much together that weekend! How silly to think of that! I remember the weather and how cold it was too that weekend. I even thought back to the OM's work Christmas dinner (and all he told me & wishing it was us together!) and that I was worried about he and his wife together! It's amazing how much I remember that was all centered around the "A". I shared some of this with my husband and he's amazed that I had all this going on without him even knowing!

With that said, my husband and I have decided to make this weekend special with the concert and go out to dinner before and enjoy the evening together. I will try to not even focus on any of those "conversation memories"!

Cards - you have some good advice on here from Owl and gentlsoul. We need to start refocusing and to change our thoughts when these "thoughts" hit us. It's hard and I wonder how I'll do come Christmas and the few days after. I just remember last Christmas just going "through the motions" of the day. I was not "there" mentally at all! But this year will be sooo much better!

Also - knowing the OM's S/N that I found out on that forum has been torturing me. He hadn't written on there (exept back in April & May)...and as I have said before, I posted on there with my husband knowing and not really worrying about "running into" the OM. But in the last few weeks he came back on there. He even posted on some of the same threads as I did. I couldn't take it anymore. Yesterday he posted on the very thread I did and right below me. Sooo... I took matters into my own hands and I posted something directing it to him so he knew it was me. Just to let him know I know it's him. I think he quit. I am not going to post on there anymore. I didn't envision this happening! I know Owl - you have told me not to even go to that forum....but it was hard not to and I think I realized I have to stay away from there. Even if he comes back with another S/N...at least I won't know it's him.

Anyway, I don't know if I did the right thing (by posting that toward the OM), but I couldn't have him posting where I was. It was just too much for me.

I'm glad you all are posting on here again! It's been great support for me from all of you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is anyone still around here today? If not..I guess you'll see this on Monday. The thread I was talking about on the other forum is about a woman that had an "A". It ended but she was afraid to tell her husband. I (and others) had encouraged her to tell her husband and that it was absolutely necessary that she do so. She did tell him and what she wrote about the other day was of her struggles with her husband...much like what we have experienced over here. The only people that responded to her last post which was an update - were me and the OM! As I stated earlier, I had posted first, then the OM did. How STRANGE that the OM and I gave advice about recovering to someone! He had not written on this thread until yesterday, but I have several times, so I was glad she posted and wrote some encouragement to her. Sooo what do I do? Do I just not care and walk away from there? Today she wrote again and it was strange that she wrote "thanks guys for your advice"...that was directed to me and the OM!

This is just tooo strange for me! I am certain that the OM had to have seen my post directed to him. He definately could make no mistake it is me because I thanked him for so very kindly calling my husband the other day with that information...of course for those that might read that would have no clue I was being sarcastic. But he needed to get a clue!

Soooo ADVICE PLEASE! Again - this has only been a problem with the OM being on there in the last few weeks!

Hi 2BN,
Yeah for closing the e-mail accounts! Now about posting to OM:

Quote

Yesterday he posted on the very thread I did and right below me. Sooo... I took matters into my own hands and I posted something directing it to him so he knew it was me.

I hope you realize this is contact. If you truly want to wash this man right outta your hair, you wouldn't do this. I'm with Owl that being on that forum is harmful to you and your marriage. It's contact.

No 2x4 from me and I mean absolutely no disrespect. Have you thought about why you care so much what FOM is thinking and doing? Forwarding e-mail to him, posting to him....I know you don't think of this as wanting a response from him, but they are deliberate attempts to send communication to him. What are you craving here?

As long as you are in contact with him, it diverts your ability to be happy. Why are you doing this to yourself? It extends the pain. Every time there is contact, all those emotions get stirred up and your energy goes to OM instead of you, your H and your M.

((((((2BNormal))))))) I ask this because I care about you. I want you to come with me to the land of no contact. You'll be amazed at how much better you feel once you've accepted the fact that guy is not a part of your life anymore...and won't be forever.

You have a H who loves you so. Spend your energy there is my advice. The grass is greener where you water it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

2BNormal,
Just saw your last post. My advice is to get out of that forum immediately and never return. Just leave. That's all you have to do.

There are plenty of other people to give her advice.

Contact with FOM is harmful to you and your M. Put your H and you first. Everyone else comes a distant second.

Do not let FOM suck you into further discussions. You're done, right?

Walk, no RUN, away immediately. Don't say goodbye, no last words, no explanations. Just close the account and never go there again.

Then, tell your H about your actions. You are on the same team. If FOM has contact your H before, he will likely do it again.

Get out of there!!! Can't emphasize this strongly enough.
GS

Ok I just went back to that forum and deleted that post that was directed to the FOM (yes I need to put FORMER!)

I don't know how to delete my account on there, but I can try to figure it out. If I do that then I know I won't be tempted to go back there and post.

As I said earlier...the FOM was NOT writing on there until recently, so I have NOT been communicating with him! I don't even think he knew it was me on there until that post (if he read it?) He did not communicate back to me. He made it clear to my husband that he didn't want anything from me and he didn't know why I sent that forward of information to him.

I really don't know why I did this? I HAVE been so much happier with my marriage in this last month more than ever! I know I was getting stressed about the holidays coming up and too many "reminders" of last year....but NO EXCUSE!

Thanks gentlsoul for your advice!

I don't know how to cancel my account on there. I see no options to do so. I had to email the site to ask and that may take a few days.....

I don't think being on the forum WHEN OM WASN'T THERE was an issue.

But now that he's returned, one of you has got to leave, and you're the one who really has a responsibility to your marriage, yourself, and your husband to walk away. We can't control others (to include OM), but we can control ourselves.

I agree with Gentle...emails, forum boards, etc...all of these ARE contact...even if it's not creating those 'feelings' for you right now, it's STILL contact.

You really do need to drop off that board, at least for now...check back in on it after Christmas to see if OM is still posting, and if not, talk with your H about resuming going there...but not before.

I know that if my wife contact OM...FOR ANYTHING AT ALL...I'd be deeply hurt and upset about it. I probably wouldn't want to make her feel bad by making an issue out of it, but it would bother me a LOT if she did so. Remember we had a similar issue when OM started back gaming again after over a year...I HATED logging in and seeing him there. My wife didn't seem to care, and she repeatedly said it didn't matter to her...her feelings for him weren't what they were before.

But just knowing that they COULD talk that way bothered me.

Please...let go of any of these contacts for now. If you REALLY need to, post a last post on that ladies thread letting her know that you'll have to back off posting for now (don't give a reason)...and then go on hiatus for a while there.

We crossed posts friend...glad to see that you're taking action!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Owl,
I don't need to post a last post. I don't think anyone would really realize I was gone as I don't post alot.

I think the hardest thing for me was to see the OM give advice to someone who had an affair. It reminded me sooo much of the advice he gave me before he and I fell into the EA! AND here he is again doing the same! Back in April, he told my husband that he would register under a new name on the forum, but that he didn't feel it was his calling to give marriage advice! How quickly he changed his mind after 7-8 months! Grrrrrrr!! Just made me angry!

And you know, even if I didn't know his s/n, I would know it's him. I recognize the words he writes and how he writes. Not hard to figure out! That's why I'm not too sure that he didn't figure out it was me before, but yet continued to post and give advice on the same thread as me!

Well, enough of this today! Hope you all have a great weekend!

Whew!!! You scared me there for a bit 2BN. You just did the right thing. Very, very cool!! Feel it yet? The more you do these kind of things, the easier it gets to focus on your world instead of FOM's world.

Quote

so I have NOT been communicating with him! I don't even think he knew it was me on there until that post (if he read it?) He did not communicate back to me. He made it clear to my husband that he didn't want anything from me and he didn't know why I sent that forward of information to him.

What I meant by communication was you forwarding an e-mail to him and posting to him on the forum. That is communication, although one-way.

Contact has several levels. It isn't just direct two way interaction. All contact harms you emotionally, and I hate to see you do that to yourself.

2BN, I like you so much. I see you trying really really hard and that is so refreshing around MB. Triggers, anniversaries suck. There is no way around it, and they bring on feelings we don't expect sometime.

It's ok to feel it. Doesn't mean you want to start up the affair again or can't be happy in your marriage. Just do all you can to avoid ANY contact (on any level ) with FOM.

OK, now if you start feeling like you want to go back to that forum to have "closure" or anything....DON'T!!! Come here and vent instead. You don't owe FOM anything in terms of an explanation. Nada.

So, tell me something you are getting for your H for the holidays. Big plans? Have you thought about ways to reclaim the holidays for you as a couple?

Your friend,
GS

Thanks gentlsoul! I appreciate your support so very much!

There is nothing else I need to say on that forum to the OM or anyone there for closure... I just need to be off of there.

I do realize that sending the FOM that email this week was wrong! The email was not just a "random forward"...it was the actual communication emails between the forum administrators and me regarding what happened to me on their forum (with the OM) I had edited out some things, but I wanted the OM to know that the changes that happened on the forum were a result of me telling our story. But he really didn't NEED to know this info. I was more angered at him posting on there recently and was trying to make a point to him. This whole thing just blew up on me when he called my husband to report that I sent him this email!

Now about Christmas! No I haven't bought my husband a single thing yet! I have NOT had time yet! We do have several things we have to go to...Christmas dinners, parties etc. But nothing out of the ordinary. We will both be off from work the entire week of Christmas though! That will be nice! I want to just enjoy this Christmas and the events and not think about last year! That is my goal...to not let last year ruin this year! In fact the last 2 Christmas were horrible because 2 years ago was OM 1...so I have to really make this year special!

Good for you 2BN - decisive action. Love it!!!

What's helping me through the holidays is a couple of things. First, acknowledging that just because the calendar says December, life isn't the same as it was last December. My life is linear and not circular. I'm not the same as last year, and neither are you. We are stronger and have learned so much!

The second thing is creating fun. I mean, actively setting up things to do with my H that are a rocking good time. Going out as a couple, decorating together, baking cookies together, playing old music we like together, etc. The more energy I invest there, the better I feel about staying in the present than in the past.

Really proud of you for getting off that forum. Going to make me smile all weekend!
GS

Good morning all!

Mary - Looking forward to hearing from you and how your weekend went with your husband. Been thinking of you and praying for you. Let us know how you are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I had a great weekend with my husband! I had mentioned that we were going to a Christmas concert (we went to the same concert last year at this time.) Last year I didn't really want to be with my husband when we went because of the OM, but this year was wonderful. We had a nice dinner out beforehand and just walked around downtown a bit before the concert. A BIG change since a year ago! A GREAT change!

Hope you all had a great weekend as well!

I thank you all for your kindness and caring.
I am going to HAVE TO quit posting for awhile.

I thought I would come here and be able to make you proud of me (Cards, 2BNormal, Owl Gentlesoul and others) and make me proud of myself but after sending the "I closed the email account" email , the OM wrote me the note below and opened a new secret yahoo acct that we can both share. (He wrote it to my regular email account.)

He gave me the ID and password and I can tell if he has read what I have written and I can look for a reply. (Didn't have that before, only I had a secret account, not a shared account.) I have a feeling there is LOTS of this happening; as Dr. Harley said, these online affairs are EPIDEMIC. I believe it.

"it was so great to hear from you............if

you want to stop okay..........but at least let us
be friends for ever and ever........and from time
to time, please write and bring me up
to date.......i will use THIS ADDRESS FROM NOW
ON.........no one knows about it but
you and me.........and i wont quit writing unless
you say no more emails.........

just so you know that you have a special place in
my soul and my heart.........
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
and you always will.............love
ya............just me........"

But it is going to be the same ole thing. I will be checking this secret account every chance I can and he will check once in awhile and write once in awhile. I have written 3 little newsy notes, he hasn't replied and the one I wrote after church yesterday is still on there. He has only written this above note since opening this acct on Fri night.

I know, I know, I am a FOOL but I am stuck in this Friendship and Romance.
My life is like any normal housewife; kinda mundane and this adds some
excitement so until I am convicted to stop, I will have to stop posting here.
I respect this message board and this is a marriage BUILDING site and I don't belong here right now.

CamoKnightsWife posted this the other day (I admire her and her words of wisdom very much; she and her WH have 5 home-schooled children and the youngest isn't even a year old.) What she said rings true for me:
"You cannot force or even coerce someone to make a voluntary decision. It would not be voluntary. "

P.S. By the way, I DO want to be one of those 'success stories' you described, WISE OWL. Believer wrote: . "Most don't tell (WS) unless they are caught."
I have a feeling that is the only way I will be able to stop this online affair and
that is to get caught. I don't see myself confessing. I am not willing to give up
my 'addiction'.

Thanks again for your caring; don't worry that I am not posting, just continue on the right direction all of you are on. I AM SO PROUD OF YOU. I know you would like to PUSH me into making the right decision but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. (Just as Camo's wife said.) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Mary -
You don't need to quit posting!

I have to say I am disappointed, but I had a feeling that this OM would try to reach you another way. You remind me sooo very much of me with the first OM for me. You are trying to hang onto something, but for what Mary??? What happiness is this going to give you? This man is involved with another woman yet too.

I really do understand where you are at. I did exactly what you did with OM1 and couldn't give him up even though I tried over and over again. Mary we are all here to tell you there is NO PEACE in this relationship you have with this man! There never will be! Do you really want to get caught and possibly destroy your marriage? Wouldn't it be better to come clean now instead of waiting until you are caught? I'm here to tell you...YOU WILL GET CAUGHT! It happens over and over again....the WS gets caught. Is this what you want?

Mary - I care about you and I see so much of myself in you. I'm here to tell you it's sooo much better on the other side of this! We can't make the choice for you. You are right in that it's totally up to you. But I can tell you won't be happy hanging on to this. This man is just 'using ' you...he really doesn't care about you or he would let you go! Don't you see that? There is no room for his friendship in your life either. It simply can't be!

Please pray! Are you praying or are you ignoring God in this! You know what God wants!

Still will be praying for you! Please keep posting!

Your friend,
2BN

P.S. - I did the same secret email thing with OM2. We had passwords to each other's accounts and even until April 2005! I finally asked him to change his password and LIFE became much better! There is nothing special to this....it only brings misery! Please come out of misery, Mary...come to the other side where I am and where Cards and Gentlsoul are! We've all been there and know what it feels like to be exactly where you are right now! I wouldn't trade where I am at now for where I was a year ago!

Quote

By the way, I DO want to be one of those 'success stories' you described,

Mary - YOU CAN BE A SUCCESS STORY! You just have to let go of this and you will be a success story!

P.S.S. - Sorry just thought of something else regarding the comment by CamoKnightsWife. It's true that "You cannot force or even coerce someone to make a voluntary decision. It would not be voluntary. "

But - what is failed to be mentioned here is choice. You CAN make the right choice because you KNOW full well what the right choice is. It may not "feel" voluntary or be what you want to do, but you can make the right choice and eventually that "right choice" will feel right.

I believe your husband would have much more respect for you if you made the "right choice" to stop rather than to continue in your secrecy until you get caught. I believe you will have much more respect for yourself as well by making the "right choice". Life is about choices, Mary. Won't you make the "right choice"?

edited to add: BTW - You said you are waiting to quit until you feel convicted to give up your addition. You already are convicted to do so....you are just ignoring the conviction. How do I know this? I've been right where you are!

Mary-

Just remember this friend.

Only YOU can make the right decisions here. None of the rest of us can do anything to make you do the right thing here. We've provided the best possible advice we can for you, but until something happens to cause you to change your mind, there's not much else that can be done.

Personally, I'm praying fervently that your H find out what's going on sometime soon. Not being vindictive here, but its the only other way that I can see positive change coming into the situation.

The only other thing I personally can suggest would be that you go ahead and start divorce proceedings now with your your H...

Again, I'm not "mad" at you, nor do I wish you ill. Quite the contrary, I wish the best for you which is why I'm praying that God intervene at this point and take action to help YOU and your H out here.

I continue to find it sad that these OM can weasel their ways so quickly into someone's heart that it's nearly impossible for the H to stand any kind of chance without some kind of serious breakdown...I'm reminded how lucky (blessed?) I was in how things worked out for me and my wife.

Regardless of your choices my friend, I'll continue to pray for you and your situation. God is stronger than any of us...at this point, I will just pray for His will to happen here.

Mary - If you are still reading here, I would like to email you a link to my thread on the other forum where I was pleading for help to get past OM1, but just like you, I couldn't make the "right choice". I posted this January 2004, and when I look back I can see how far I have come. As I said, you remind me so much of me back in January 2004. I received some good advice from many people on there, but just like you, I ignored it and wanted to keep my addiction going....so I continued on my journey with OM1...and then to OM2.

If you want to read it, please post an email address where I can send it to you. I don't feel comfortable posting the link on here....never know who is reading here!

And like Owl, I'll be praying for your husband as well and that God will intervene!

Quote

I know, I know, I am a FOOL but I am stuck in this Friendship and Romance.
My life is like any normal housewife; kinda mundane and this adds some
excitement so until I am convicted to stop, I will have to stop posting here.

Mary, you are CHOOSING to be where you are. Not stuck.

And your marriage is boring because you have elected to invest your energy in a internet-OM, who wants to keep you hanging on for thrills while he has relationship(s) with other women.

I'll say a prayer for your H, who deserves a full-time wife. I'll pray that circumstances prompt you to start on the path Cards, 2BN and I went down. It's hard, but I wouldn't be where you are again for anything.

Married life can be wonderful if you give it a chance. But as long as your heart and mind and actively invested elsewhere, your M will seem boring.

You are electing a life of pain for you and everyone around you. You are doing this voluntarily.

GS

Mary.......

Don't leave us.....we need you. You need us.

You guys are all so sweet and kind; I will be reading but please, I just CAN'T continue posting. I am ok with you all giving advice to give up OM. Like any person in an addiction, I imagine they KNOW the right thing to do, yet continue on. (You see, I KNOW I am in the wrong, that is why I can't post, I have no defense whatsoever.) You are all RIGHT.

For me to keep posting on a Marriage Building site would be like an alcoholic standing up at an AA meeting saying how much they are enjoying drinking. I did get another long newsy letter from OM. If I posted it here, most would say, "how boring", but it means a lot to me just to hear about what he is doing. You are thinking "GAG"; I know!

I do have a choice to get out of this online affair. It is a hole I dug myself and climbed into. A part of me doesn't see it as so wrong (like a PA which is VERY wrong) more like a person reading Romance Novels to escape into a fantasy world. Although, OM is a real person, a real friend but neither of us have any intention whatsoever of it ever being more than that. My H is my ROCK and he is the one I want to grow old with.
And yes, I know I am playing with fire with my way of thinking. Any BS reading this (like Owl) I am so sorry as I know this post hurts you and I don't even want to be writing but I just felt too mean not to give a responce.

Owl, you said something about OM weasling their way into our hearts. But you need to realize, us ladies have a way of worming our way into THEIR hearts. OM is just a normal guy, not all that much different than my H. Maybe a little more romantic; he sent this today: http://www.andiesisle.com/InYou.html

I would recommend anyone reading this, to send this site to your own spouse. YOU be the romantic one.

2BNormal, could you post the website you were referring to and soon as I see it, I will let you know and you can delete it?

Quote

Although, OM is a real person, a real friend but neither of us have any intention whatsoever of it ever being more than that.

Mary - but you have already crossed the line to "more than friendship" with this man! Let's see...you kissed him! Ummm...you send "romantic notes"...I'm sorry but you are just trying to justify the "friendship thing". I know this because I have done the same and when I post that link you will see "your exact words" in what I wrote 2 years ago! IF your husband was your ROCK then you wouldn't be doing this behind his back. I don't mean to be harsh....I just know how you are feeling right now.

Mary- have you and your husband ever been to marriage counseling? I can't remember if you mentioned that before.

BTW - I thought both the OM in my situation were more romantic than my husband as well! It's still no excuse for what I did or what you are continuing in.

To Cardsonly, 2BNormal and all the rest that have been posting here. You have no way of knowing how many are following this online affair topic that are like Mary and involved in an online affair. I am not proud to confess that I am one of them. I have been reading these posts since this topic was first started last year. I do not plan on getting involved in this discussion. I just decided to register so I could say that you that have conquered this online affair addiction, confessed to your husband and got out, are an inspiration for the rest of us.

Hi coffeecup - I'm glad you came on and posted. I'm sorry to hear where you are at and involved in this online affair, but I'm glad you are reading and that those of us that have come to the other side can be an inspiration to you.

It's ok if you don't want to post, but if you ever have a question, I'd be glad to answer. I have been in your shoes as you well know. I know what it's like to be where you are right now, and how wonderful it feels to be where I'm at right now. I only wish this for you and for others that may be reading here!

Cards - if you are reading here...you are welcome to email me at that email address I posted as well. I will be deleting it after I hear from Mary.

Coffeecup...

If you have followed this thread since February when I first started it, you will see the varying journies we have all been on. I do not know if I will ever "conquer" this. Remnants of the EA will always be with me, I am sure. I have grown and been forced to learn a lot about myself over this past year. I have a new understanding about relationships, emotions, and love. My M has a long way to go, it didn't get into bad shape overnight and it won't be mended quickly either. Many of us that succumbed to an EA did so unaware of what was happening. It has been a tremendous learning experience.

We have all helped each other here, and I encourage you to post and write. All of us have had ups and downs here, and almost ALWAYS, someone's post is helpful to someone else. For everyone reading here, please feel free to post anytime no matter what stage you are in. Sometimes I am struggling but do not want to post my feelings, and just reading someone else's post can be very helpful.

Mary, please contact me if you wish, I think we can help each other.

Thank you 2BN....I made a note of it. Feel free to email me as well. I feel like we all know each so well....

Cards - Please email me your email address...you already deleted it off here before I read this!

Thanks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote

Owl, you said something about OM weasling their way into our hearts. But you need to realize, us ladies have a way of worming our way into THEIR hearts. OM is just a normal guy, not all that much different than my H. Maybe a little more romantic; he sent this today: http://www.andiesisle.com/InYou.html

Hey Mary-

Didn't your H do things like this when you were first dating? Do little things like give you cards, flowers, whatever it was (think about it, he did SOMETHING to attract you to him)??

OM is NOT more romantic than most others...the difference is that he's courting you. That is IT. Your H has no idea that you've done what you have...he's not courting you because at this point he's believed that he's already won you. He has no idea that you've gone so far astray in your heart.

Oh yeah, OM sent the EXACT same kind of cards...even from that same website to my wife!

You're right in pointing out that he's just a man like others. In fact, there are only a few differences between him and your H that I'd like to point out.

1. OM is sending love letters, etc... TO A MARRIED WOMAN!!! KNOWING she's married!!! (can you see your H doing that?)

2. Your H is with you, even knowing all the bad things about you. I had this conversation with OM myself shortly after d-day. They THOUGHT they knew each other enough to be in love with each other. But what they were really in love with was the mental picture they'd created of each other. They hadn't been together enough in person to have destroyed that image yet. He hadn't rolled over and tried to kiss her with beer breath or cigarette smoke on his breathe. She'd not come home to his place and had an asthma attack because of the residual smoke in his house. They hadn't had a chance for him to REALLY feel insecure in things and forbid her from seeing me (it was coming if she'd gone to him...he was clearly jealous from the very beginning). He'd never been in the bathroom when she'd dropped a REALLY bad one...LOL! Never had to help her deal with her anger when the kids REALLY got her upset. I can go on and on and on...simply realize that they never had the chance to disillusion each other. AND YOUR OM HASN'T HAD THE CHANCE TO DO THAT TO YOU YET EITHER!!! But, your H has. He's been there with you at your worst...and you've been forced to see him in REALITY...not just a person you IM/text/email/chat with. But guess what...your husband is still with you, and still loves you...even WITH all the day to day things.

Mary, I could keep going on. But it's pointless, because you're still at the exact same point you were when you were on this thread before. Again, I just pray that something happens in your life that brings this affair out in the open...so that your marriage gets a REAL chance at things.

The only other suggestion I have is this...if you just can't bear to let OM go...then let your H go. Go to him and tell him that you want a divorce. That he deserves someone else. Don't sit here and keep him fulfilling some of your needs while OM fills others...because I can garauntee while you're in the throes of this affair, you are NOT fulfilling your H's needs either. Think about it.

Done...nothing left to say, /rant off.

Owl-
You have really "touched" on what the draw is in the online affair. It's that fantasy of what we think the OM is and what they are fulfilling for us. Those needs being met "feel good" and it's so difficult to give up and walk away from it. Look at your wife, me and Cards...none of us willingly walked away while in the midst of it. It took some "event" to happen to make us stop and realize the darkness and mess we were in.

Owl - Do you think your wife would have willingly walked away from the EA without the "event" that happened to cause her to stop and realize what she would be losing?

For me, I KNOW God's mighty hand was in it to put an end to the EA. I don't think it was by some "accident" that the OM's wife found our emails. Both the OM and I knew what we were doing was wrong, but yet we could not stop even though we talked about ending it. We kept getting drawn back into it.

My prayers are that God's mighty hand will intervene!

I need to add this. I did willingly walk away from OM #1. But I only did so because I was talking to OM #2 - we were not in the EA at the time, but I had him to talk to and fufill a need.

2BN-

I think you're right on the money. No, I don't think my wife would have ended it and walked off on her own if I hadn't discovered what was going on and fought so hard to end it. Even afterwards, she was insistent for about two months that she should be allowed to maintain contact with OM 'as a friend'. And was soooo angry at me for 'controlling her by telling her who she could have as friends'.

But, I also know that my wife DIDN'T CONSIDER coming to a site like MB. She didn't tell ANYONE AT ALL about what was going on...and so didn't have ANYONE who could give her outside advice. And I have to admit the fact that he bought her plane tickets escalated the whole thing to a MUCH higher level than it had been previously. It actually forced her to make a FINAL choice immediately. Here they went from being at the point where they were talking about meeting for the first time to 'see if what they had worked in person' to suddenly facing the idea of living together without having previously met. Had that not happened, it would have likely taken MUCH longer to sort through everything.

But, here's another difference...Mary came here seeking advice. Unlike my wife, she's actually reaching the point where she's got to make that choice without any other pressures going on...which in a lot of ways is bad. She's put herself in a position where she has let this go on for a year.

My money says that her H has a decent idea that things are pretty bad in their R. She hasn't mentioned whether or not H knows anything about the OM at all...like she talks with him at all. My case, I knew the OM, and had some idea that my wife was IM'ing him...I didn't know it was all day long, along with those same flowery e-cards, phone calls, etc... By now, Mary has begun investing so much emotionally into her R with OM, that her M has HAD to have suffered...and her H is probably going crazy trying to figure out why, but something has kept the light from coming on in his head.

Mary, you need to realize that the light WILL come on someday...and probably much sooner than you plan. My wife figured I'd learn something...but of course it happened WAY before they expected. Your H WILL find out about this eventually...it's going to happen. And if he finds out the way I did, by finding out on his own, the chances that he'll be able to respond to it without committing MAJOR LB's to you are very very slim. And he's going to be more destroyed by your lies and deception than anything else...again, take it from someone who's been there.

You need to stop right now, recognize that your time with OM is limited...and that you're going to be forced to deal with the consequences of all of this some day. But, what you have to deal with can be controlled...BY YOU. If you choose to do the right things, on your own, BEFORE your H finds out, it greatly increases the chances that things can be fixed...it will reduce the damage somewhat.

You're not back in reality yet. You've refused to realize that this WILL end at some point. That your H WILL find out someday. That you're going to HAVE to face up to what's gone on, and make some hard choices and do some hard work to deal with this. But as I've said...this all falls back on YOU to choose how you want to do this. Just how badly you're willing to hurt your H by maintaining this affair. That's what your balancing right now...the longer you keep the affair going, the more you're going to hurt your H...it's unavoidable. And right now, you're choices are completely selfish...no attack friend...simply telling you what it is. You've placed your own temporary happiness over the damage you know this will have on your H.

Honestly, I'm praying that your H finds out what's going on right now...and that God helps him to deal with things so that the best possible outcome can come out of this. That it happens soon, so that your M has a chance to heal.

Go read my thread again, and look at where my wife and I are at now. I worked from home yesterday...totally unplanned. She was ECSTATIC...she had me all to herself. Before, she would have been upset because it would have ruined time between her and OM...but not now. You can get to this point too...really.

Owl -
I have been communicating with Mary a bit off of here on emails. I have shared my thread on the other forum with her to where I came on there pleading for help with OM #1. I received so much good advice. I too had asked for advice and needed to make a choice to continue or end, but I couldn't end it! Let me tell you, it's easier to hide from it, than to make a choice. A choice where you know there will be so much hurt (on both ends).

But as you said Owl, it will end one way or another. These things NEVER go on for eternity as much as we think they will when we are involved in the midst of it. We REALLY can't imagine them ever ending. We are in this "la la land" to where all is going to be "happily every after". Someone always starts to get "relaxed" and not so careful. Your sins will ALWAYS find you out!

Any updates on the Mary situation?

DEAR Owl.
Just a little note to thank you for your kindness and caring. I hope you understand why I can't post here since my 'friend' and I are still in email communication.

Again, I am only writing you because I feel 'mean' not
to respond. I am not asking for advice. Most of us that
have been reading here as long as I have, already know the right thing to do.

I don't think there is one thread here on MB that is written by a WS. (Not a FWS.) I DON'T BELONG HERE, so please accept that, dear Owl.

Cards and 2BNormal are both good women that would not betray anything I write to them in confidence through personal emails.

There IS a light at the end of this EA tunnel; I just need to follow it.(In other words, there is a way out but it is sure not easy.) BECAUSE I like being in the tunnel and until I WANT OUT, no amount of heartfelt coaxing from anyone will help get me into the light.

I wish I could tell you differently but that is where I am now. It is foggy thinking for sure.

Thanks again, Owl. (and others)
Mary

Mary,

There have been many threads on this site written by WS's in an affair. The most recent is by Lora(I cannot remember the numbers behind her name) on the Emotional Needs section. It is NOT as uncommon as you feel.

You have been getting great advice from OWL, please listen to it.

God Bless,

JL

Mary-

I hope you didn't think I was asking for Cards or 2BN to betray your fonfidences???

By no means...actually I was hoping that YOU were still around and that you would respond.

I guess that the only thing I really have to say to you at this point is this...please remember that YOU have the strength to do the right thing here...you really and truly do. God gave you that strength a long time ago.

Let me ask you this...what advice would YOU, personally, yourself...give a drug addict who was responding the same way that you are? They know the addiction is wrong, they know that what they're doing is not only hurting them but the people around them, but they won't do anything to fix the situation simply because they still enjoy that high they get at each fix? What advice would you give them...what would you try to do to help them? (Imagine that they're married too...but their spouse doesn't know about their addiction...)

Would you give up? Would you allow them to continue along the path that they're on without pushing them to do the right thing?

The only other option anyone has in either case (yours, and the drug situation I described above) is to wait until the person who is addicted 'crashes and burns'. Until they're caught by their spouse, until the damage is so great that it's all out of their control...but given that, there's not much help to give them when they reach that point.

Still praying for you friend...still hoping that things reach a point where God is allowed to step in and do His part here.

Owl....

Your perserverance amazes me. You must feel like you're a broken record at times, but please know that your thoughts and advice are heard. Maybe not always followed immediately, but I am sure that you are helping more people than you realize by continuing to write and support and encourage. I know that what you say always gives me food for thought. I am sure there are people reading here that don't post, and I know your words help and encourage them.

You know that those of us that have been in this EA cycle have ups and downs. It is a long process for some of us to 'see the light'. I just want to say thank you for putting the time and energy in for us.

Thanks Cards...I've often wondered if the advice I've tried to give ever really mattered or actually made a difference. I know that I'm an opinionated SOB at times...and I really don't claim to know any more than anyone else does. It's just easier sometimes to 'get it' when it comes from an outside disinterested party, you know?

Well, regardless of anything, I really do only wish the best for everyone involved in the situations where people have come and posted here.

Owl - I would like to add that I've very much appreciated all the advice you have given us on this thread as well. I've posted alot of my struggles on this thread, and I've really come a long way since I started posting last March!

Alot of times I've posted on here with my problems/struggles knowing the right thing to do, but I always need that push to DO the right thing! You have helped me see many things from the perspective of how my husband views things.

I am really looking forward to Christmas this year! I was starting to worry about all the triggers and thoughts of what transpired last year during this very week, but I have to say I feel stronger than I thought I would!

Please keep us in your prayers that it will remain this way for me this week! Last year on 12/26 was when the OM's wife found our emails and on 12/27 the OM revealed that information to me and we had to end the EA. I am truly thankful it ended, but the thoughts of the pain I experienced then and after still remain.

Hope you and your family have a wonderful Christmas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2BN...

I am in a similar boat as you....my EA was very "heated" at this time last year, spending lots of time together during the holidays. D-day (#1) isn't until January for me, but this it the time when the EA was really defined for me. Many events that we are repeating this year has brought back those memories. I know that the next few weeks will have me in the throes of what was happening a year ago....Amazing, isn't it?

We need to divert our attentions and make new memories with our families. I have put in my mind to let go of this year, so to speak. A year full of emotions & soul searching & personal upheaval. I am looking forward to healing and starting anew with a new outlook for 2006.

In case I don't post again this week....to all my friends here, have a wonderful Christmas!! Thank you all..

Quote

We need to divert our attentions and make new memories with our families. I have put in my mind to let go of this year, so to speak. A year full of emotions & soul searching & personal upheaval. I am looking forward to healing and starting anew with a new outlook for 2006.

Cards - This is a great way to think. We are starting fresh in 2006! It is really important especially this time of year (for me and you) that we create new and special memories around Christmas with our husband and family. I know I am looking forward to having next week off from work with my husband! We hope to spend some time together...maybe go to lunch, shop etc...just the 2 of us.

Reaching out to my friends from this thread!!!

Hoping ya'll are doing well!!

Hi Owl -
Hope you are doing well! How was your Christmas with your family?

I'm doing well. The triggers I thought I would have over these days were very minimal and did not cause any distress to my husband or me. Yesterday - 12/27 - was one year since OM#2 told me his wife found our emails and we had to end our EA. Tomorrow is one year since D-Day that I admitted everything to my husband of OM#2 and other communication that he was not aware of about OM#1. My husband doesn't even think about it anymore, and if I didn't mention about these days, it wouldn't have even crossed his mind. We both have progressed quite a bit in a year!

We had a great Christmas and also kept pretty busy with having friends over before and after Christmas. My husband and I are off work all week and are doing some things together...shopping, movies and hopefully a lunch here and there.

Glad to hear that things are going well 2BN.

Christmas was nice...I don't know if I'd mentioned that we had a major blow up a few months ago and my DD19 was pretty much invited to go live somewhere else since she seemed convinced it would be better for her. Well she did, and has been living with another family since then...periodically calling or visiting pretty much when she needs something. Lots of strain in dealing with her since she tries to blame us (her mom and I) for ANYTHING that doesn't go her way. BUT...she spent Christmas with us, and we had a nice, easy family day.

I had glass-etched a pretty clear glass coffee mug for my wife in a motif I knew she'd love...haven't ever done that kind of work before, so she was very pleased by it. I'd also got her a beautiful set of bags, needle/hook holders for her craft work that she liked a lot. She had picked up a book she knew I wanted for me, and a CD with Celtic music that she knew I'd like.

I'm working this week, but managing to get some time off to spend with her and the kids...we're both looking forward to having some vacation time soon when the kids are back in school so that it's just time for the two of us.

Hope that everyone else had a great Christmas, and that things are going well!

Owl - Glad to hear you had a nice Christmas. I didn't know about your daughter moving out...Sorry to hear that, but it was nice that she spent Christmas with the family!

Hi everyone!

Been a while, but I do lurk out here from time to time to see how it's going.

Things are quite wonderful over here. Had a great holiday (2 weeks off to boot). Me and my W are doing better than ever.

That said, we are getting close to the 1 year anniversary of D-Day and it has dredged up some negative feelings in me. It's odd how I can be both simultaneously happy and secure in my M, yet still harbor some of these "man, if things had gone different..." kinds of thoughts. I assume that with time these thoughts will diminish. They aren't causing any serious trouble, but I'd just as soon not have them.

Hope you all had a good holiday and have the best year ever.

Sys-

Good to hear from you friend!!

And glad to hear that things are still going so well for you and your wife!!

The 'anniversary triggers' do suck...I was going through those about the time you were posting here my friend...so I understand how you're feeling.

The good news is this...as you make it through these, and discuss them with your wife and deal with them, you'll find them easier to deal with than you anticipated. It seemed that way to me, looking back on it.

We'll be coming up on some of the first of the two year anniversaries for me soon...I'm hoping that they'll be even easier to deal with this time.

Well, take care my friend...nice to hear from you again! If you get the chance...drop back over to LS so you can PM me, and send me your email address if you like!

Alright friends...somewhat off-topic, but still right up this alley...LOL.

So my 20 year old daughter who moved out a few months ago calls me last Thursday and tells me that she's either moving to another state to live with OR he's moving here to live with her...now get this...a guy that my wife and I knew from our online gaming!!! (NO, this is not my wife's OM...a very young guy we both knew from playing EQ).

Once again...she used to IM this guy a decent amount back when she lived at home...but that IM'ing cut WAY back once she moved out and lost the easy computer access. She hadn't talked about this guy at all until this day that she tells me this...and when I ask her how long they'd been talking on the phone, it had only been a few days!

TALK ABOUT DEJA VU!!!

Of course I was immediately comparing this to what Mom had gone through back in '04. Asked my daughter how this was any different from what Mom had gone through...and how her (my daugther's) advice to her mom about not knowing this person that well, etc... was different now. Anyone care to guess what her response was??? Yup, you got it..."but in my case it's different!".

Interestingly enough, my wife just told my daughter to remember all that she'd said to my wife back then...that it was something she should be thinking about very hard. When my wife and I sat and talked by ourselves, she made the comment that "Yup, they just started talking this week. After that first phone call, the fantasy is off and running BIG TIME!". We talked a little about what she'd gone through, and how she viewed it now. Was interesting to hear her finally use the word 'fantasy' in conjunction with what she went through...she's never done that until now.

The good news is that my daughter actually listened to the advice she got from EVERYONE...which mirrored what mom and I were saying. They're going to take it slow and easy...wait until he comes up to visit and do some dating then.

Downside was that I really didn't need this trigger for me. Been doing decent in letting the feelings slide, but it sure felt like I was talking with her mom that night.

Hope ya'll don't mind me sharing this here.

Hi Owl,
Wow that must have been difficult to deal with! How quickly your daughter fell for this guy too! I'm glad that you and your wife were able to use what happened in the past to help your daughter. I'm telling you, these things catch you off guard and take you by surprise and you are "hooked" so quickly! And of course, we think "it's different with us!". Well it is different in that they are not married, but still....!! How far away does this guy live?

Did this have some bad triggers for your wife as well?

Bumping up for Owl...didn't know if you saw my response/questions... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks 2BN...actually had missed it.

This guy lives about 600-700 miles away at a guess. As long as they decide to work on dating when he comes here to visit sometime (and not just moving in together), I really don't have a major issue with it.

This just really blew my mind on how she couldn't see how this was the exact same kind of behavior that she had tried to talk her mom out of.

My wife just doesn't 'trigger' on anything to do with her A anymore...she told our MC in the past that she's "buried it completely...just let it go and not let it bother me anymore". So she just doesn't seem to really give it any thought (or at least she doesn't show that she does, and doesn't discuss it with me). And in truth, I've quit talking to her about anything related to the A myself. Done a lot to let it go and forget about it...and I've gotten to the point where I don't see the value in going over it again.

How have you been my friend?

That's great that your daughter will take it slow and spend some time getting to know this guy.

It's good that your wife is able to put the whole EA behind her and not struggle as the rest of us ladies have.

I'm doing well...I think moving past the original DDay and getting past all of those reminders helped. My husband and I don't talk about the EA nearly as much as we used to and are really recovering pretty well. There are times we mention the EA and have some conversations, but they don't cause us any problems to talk about. Our focus is pretty much on our marriage and the kids right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Owl,

Amazin how this works isn't it? We just had 2 guild marriages split due to this same stuff. One couple played together, the other didn't. I don't have all the details, but there you go. If it weren't so close to home, I'd really be facinated by the sociological aspects of on-line communication and relationships.

I'm glad your D did the right thing. See, maybe there is a silver lining here. Your experience served as an illustration that she could look to. Sorry if it triggered anything. I know how that goes. I've come to the conclusion that for the short term anyway, triggers are just going to happen and take them for what they are and let them go.

Speaking of triggers, Sunday is the 1 year D-Day anniversary. I don't really know if my W realizes that or not. Frankly, I'd rather just let it pass, or maybe just do something nice without making an issue of it. In some ways, I see it now as the beginning of a major improvement in our relationship, no matter how devastating. Any thoughts?

Sys-

Nice to hear from you man! Glad to hear things are still going well for you and your W. I know what you mean about how it all seems so similar...we've resumed playing some, and I've seen several more marriages break up over the EXACT same thing you and I have gone through. I'm trying to decide how to handle one situation right now, as a matter of fact. There's a guy that I know from in game...but lives here in the general area, and I've met him and his wife in the past. His wife doesn't play, but understands the game well enough...but what's really got me 'bothered' is that he's 'married' someone in game...who is ALSO a somewhat local person. There's been a lot of flirting and such...but I don't really know how to contact his wife directly, so I'm at something of a loss as what to do from here.

On your plans for the 'd-day anniversary'...sounds like you're thinking of doing exactly what I did. Didn't make it a big issue...but made an effort to have a great day with my wife that day. Seemed to work very well for me.

The odd thing is Owl, or maybe I shouldn't say odd, but common thread, is how they all (my W included) don't blame the game environment for being a catalyst. The one guildy I have some specifics on said that she always had some doubts about her marriage -sounds like the fog to me.My natural inclination is to jump in and meddle, but I think that unless invited I should stay out of it. I do wish though that these unhappy people could benefit from some experienced advice. Then again, advice is usually only taken if solicited.

Sigh

Sys-

I don't "blame" the game interface, but I agree that the game setting definitely makes it much easier for this kind of thing to happen. It's got all of the 'blinds' of a chat room...hiding behind your char, etc...but with none of the negative associations of most chat rooms.

In the chat sessions I'd captured when I "caught" my wife, OM actually brought up something with her that kinda pertains to this. He asked her why she was more "flirty" with her in game than in their IM sessions. She would make bolder statements to him in game (mostly via tells and emotes) than she would in their IM sessions when they were by themselves.

And I think that his reasoning was pretty sound...he thought that it might have been because the direct IM sessions were "too real"...so she was less likely to be intimate there than in game.

Just a thought, but I think he might have been right with that.

Cards and 2BN-
If ya'll would prefer that I take this conversation elsewhere so it doesn't cause you two any bad memories, please feel free to say so my friends.

Owl- Just getting around to replying on this. No it doesn't bother me.

Quote

And I think that his reasoning was pretty sound...he thought that it might have been because the direct IM sessions were "too real"...so she was less likely to be intimate there than in game.

I'm not sure I understand her reasoning? Unless she was just afraid of where it was heading when they were on IM...but that doesn't make sense since she was ready to take off with the OM.

Hope you are doing well Owl! How are things with your daughter?

2BN-

Good to hear from you friend. My daughter has pretty much gone nutso lately. Got evicted for fighting with one of the guys she was sharing the apartment with...suddenly quit talking to all of her friends, stopped going to work completely. One of her other roomates filed a missing persons report on her after 3 days of not being able to contact her...was a week after that before she finally decided to contact me and let the family know that she was OK. She's getting herself into a worse and worse situation...but nothing for me to do now but let her learn the hard way.

As far as your question above...

Well, my wife and OM had JUST reached the stage where they were talking about meeting to see if what they felt was "real" in person or not. She actually wasn't truly 'ready' to leave and live with him...but once she was caught and he offered for her to go, it seemed like her only choice at the time. Of course she wasn't up to facing what she had done, so going to him was her only way to avoid the guilt. It was a panic response on both of their parts more than it was any kind of premeditated plan. My catching them when I did was probably at the worst possible time for them...they couldn't deny what was going on, but it hadn't gotten to the point where they'd truly established what they wanted yet.

And I think that when she was talking with him "in the game"...it seemed less real to her there. I think she'd been convincing herself that what she was doing wasn't so bad...which is why she was always trying to set it up so that all 3 of us played together. If it was all 3 of us, it couldn't be wrong, could it? (even if she was sending him private messages and such...just pointing out her thinking here as I think I understand it)

But, carrying things over into one-on-one IM sessions...that was a little more harder to justify what she was doing. Same with the emails and phone calls. And so when he'd pressure her to 'be more intimate' in those sessions, she was uncomfortable. But flirting with him while we were all 3 in game didn't seem as bad to her...at least this is my thought.

She really hasn't thought much at all about all of this since it ended...and so she's managed to help herself "forget" a lot of what went on. And at this point I don't see a lot of benefit in trying to drag more info out of her...so we really don't talk much about it at all anymore.

And I have to admit...it's not on my mind nearly like it used to be at all either. Too many other stressors, enough reassurance from her that she won't do it again, all of this I guess.

I will say that I don't feel like our R is what it could be at this point...but I'm hoping some upcoming changes will help us deal with that.

Good Morning Owl.
You haven't heard from me for awhile.

I know you know that Cardsonly and 2BNormal and I share
emailing. We have become wonderful friends. We have been
able to share inner struggles that are too personal for MB.

We write our feelings without fear of rebuke;yet we give encouragement to always do what is right.

I don't know if you read my messages on 2longs Topic called:
"Contact Continues...unbefarginbelievable."

My message starts on page 2 of his thread and 2BNormal posted several messages. But there was a a bit of a ruckus,
so she went back and deleted all her messages.

2BNormal asked me to write you and let you know that OM and I are in NO CONTACT. It has only been a little over a week so I am definitely still in those awful withdrawals and wonderings about him.

Just like Cards, 2BNormal and your wife, it was the OM that said it was time to stop. It is always harder for us CHRISTIAN women to accept that we were so weak and didn't stop this on line affair ourselves; if we could have been the ones to say NO MORE CONTACT, it would have put us on the higher ground.

This is making me shaky to write here. Yet I know, Owl, you are one of the few MB betrayed spouses that want to hear from WW to help you understand your own wife better. You seem to not be offended if we are acting like SICK PUPPY DOGS missing the OP. You have been there with your wife and have a great compassionate understanding.

I admire you and your words of wisdom more than I can say.
Again thanks for always caring about all of us here on Card's thread.

Hi Owl -
So sorry to hear all that is going on with your daughter! I really hope things get better for her. Does she tell you what's going on with her life that she is behaving this way?

I understand now about your W and the IM vs. talking on the game. It really sounds like she was "not sure" of where it was headed and was trying to play it safe (in a way?). Not at all like what happened with me.

Quote

I will say that I don't feel like our R is what it could be at this point...but I'm hoping some upcoming changes will help us deal with that.

Why do you think this is? What do you plan on changing to help your recovery...if you care to share?

As you can tell, Cards, Mary and I are all emailing. I really believe that Mary is going to come out of this strong! As she said, she is in withdrawals right now and it helps for her to talk to 2 women who have "been there". I know she would appreciate some words from "Wise" old Owl!

Hi Owl & Sys....

I have not been keeping up here as my life continues to be hectic, and especially my "work world". Still struggling with software conversion from the fall!

Anyway, I am so glad to see the familiar names of you still writing. You were discussing how these online relationships progress from just "chatting" while playing games...to IM.....to phone calls.....to cams......to meeting. I think that is the natural progession from less personal to intimate. Your W recollection of how the OM observed her behavior is probably accurate. Once you move to a more personal venue, a closer "connection" is established. Each step makes it more personal & "real". Cameras and phone calls about 25 more levels "real" as you can "see" and "hear" personalities, not just read words and interpret tones and moods.

I still play my card games with many people. I have friends that I've known almost a year and played with, several of them men. BUT there is no inclination from them or me to move it to the more personal IM. I don't know any more about them than their "nickname" and how they play the game. With my OM it happened so quickly. I was naive, having NEVER IM before. It seemed sort of inherently wrong to me at the time, but when he suggested IM because it was so much easier to use and faster I didn't see the harm. Things did become much more personal because we didnt have the "distraction" of the games going on around us. The rest is history...........

My point is that conversing and "chatting" in these games situations does not necessarily lead to anything more. And while I was susceptible to OM's attention and interest, it is not as though every "tom, [censored], and harry" that comes along is going to enrapt a person into an EA. This was an isolated incident of 2 people with common interests and lives meeting up. In my opinion, no different than the "normal" way 2 people would meet and end up liking each other.

Owl...sorry about your problems with your daughter. I hope that she will make her decisions wisely and learn from her mistakes. Although my kids are all in their early teens and I know the hardest is yet to come for me in raising them, I think your stance is correct. There is only so much you can do when they get to a certain point. YOu have done your best to raise them and instill certain values in them. They have to learn from their mistakes....

Good luck!

Well my friends...I believe that the Owl's advice (wise or not) is going to either end or be greatly limited for a while.

I'm undergoing a semi-voluntary career change now...and so I'm not sure when/how I'll be able to post here in the future. I actually rather wish I could explore the possibility of becoming a counselor of sorts...but don't honestly expect that this will be a real possibility anytime in the forseeable future.

I'm very glad to hear that you've entered NC, IWRA. I would love to hear that in some small way the advice I've given has helped someone...that I might have made some small difference in helping someone somewhere.

I will come by and post when/if I can my friends...I continue to pray for the best for all of you, and know that God will guide and take care of you all.

Thanks for everything...

Owl

Owl -
Thank you for updating us. You have been a tremendous help to me over the months I posted on here! I wish you all the best in your career change and that you and your family will be blessed!

Friend Owl, your note of not having much time for MB anymore, makes me feel so sad. I don't think you know how much of a 'helping hand' you have given to us WW. You have steadfastly (for over a year) tried to gently pull us through our dark fogging thinking into the warm bright sunshine of Clear Thinking.

You are a very good counselor; never pushing but always encouraging;
ALWAYS giving LIFTING advice.

You make us feel like we are GOOD women even though what we did was BAD.

You encourage even those of us that are not yet FORMER WW; (FWW are accepted at MB with OPEN ARMS) those of us that are new to NO CONTACT with the OM or still struggling to get off the fence. You ALWAYS try to help us do what is right, IN A KIND WAY.

Owl, you would make a GREAT counselor.

Good Luck with your future job. Maybe you can check Cardsonly's thread at least once a week and post to add some of your 'sage words of wisdom'.

Thanks again for caring about us WW. You are an exceptionally understanding BH. Very very rare. A GEM.

P.S I hope everything works out for the best with your daughter and she soon makes a U-Turn in her life.

Owl....

I could not agree with IWRA more. You have stood by us and not judged us. You have helped and encouraged us, even when we have faltered. Your viewpoint has been invaluable in helping us WS see the perspective from our H's. You expressed your feelings based on being the BS and that helped me better understand what my H felt who was unable to express some of those feelings. You genuinely care, and that is what makes you different from some.

I know for me and others that post here or did post regularly, your words of advice and wisdom have at times stopped us or redirected our actions. I am SURE that there are many, many people that have read your writings here (10,000 hits on this thread!)and have been helped by your insights.

Please do your best to stay in touch with us. Good luck with your career change, and best wishes to you and your family.

Blessings to you, OWL

Owl -
I would like to echo what Cards and Mary wrote, but also need to add a few things.

There were many, many times that I came on here and posted honestly about my further communications with the OM, and the many other things I did. I respected your words and your gentle prodding. Even when you gave me some 2x4's to help me see the "light", those 2x4's were NEVER harsh and I always knew you meant them for my good because you truly cared for all of us on here. Your words of wisdom ALWAYS made me stop and think about what I was doing and what I needed to do to correct it. For your words, I am ever thankful for pushing me on the right track for my marriage!

As Cards also mentioned, you will never really know how many other WW's you may have helped on here that were not brave enough to post!

Please do stay in touch when you can!

God Bless!

Well, it appears that I've got about 30 days to determine what my future will be like, career-wise at least. So, I should be able to post occasionally through that time I think.

Remember this friends...YOU were the ones who made the right choices to get yourselves out of the situations that you were in. It's easy to blame yourself when you can so clearly see where you did something wrong...and then not be able to give yourself the credit for doing the things to make amends for what you've done too. All I did was let you bounce things off of me...you were the ones who made the choice to fix your situations. And of course, God really has been right there for all of us. He is the true source of light in these tough times.

I do pray that things continue to work out for each of you. And IWRA, I truly believe that you're going to see things getting better soon. Even sooner than you think is possible. Sticking to NC is TOUGH...but so worth it. I guess I'd suggest to you that you use your hurt and anger at OM wanting to end it to make some changes for yourself. Start by deleting the IM and email accounts that he used to communicate with you...make it so that if HE slips, you wont' be the one to suffer for it. Start doing things that make you feel better...ESPECIALLY things that you can share with your H. Begin rebuilding that relationship (for now, just work on rebuilding that FRIENDSHIP if you have trouble with the rest of it) that you've had with your husband. Try to rediscover what it was about him that made you fall in love with him...and try to ignore those twinges of feelings that will crop up over OM for now.

I will continue to suggest that you tell your H...but at the moment, I'd suggest you concentrate on the intitial withdrawl and how to handle that. But...if you feel that it's getting to be too much...then be honest with your H about what has gone on...and ask him for his help in this. He'll be angry and hurt, make no mistake...but the chance to rebuild your R with him can start there too.

Thank you all for the kind thoughts and words...all I've done is try to help you see clearly in a time when it's hard to do so. Good luck friends...I'll post when I can.

Hi Owl -
Here I am seeking advice again from you! I hope you are able to read this today!

I know you know that I struggled for some time being on that forum where I met the OM. Well, the struggles continued since I last posted on it. The OM came back in January with a new s/n and I knew it was him from his first post. He started to post with great frequency recently, knowing full well that I was on there. He never spoke to me directly, but we were on a few threads together and actually posted directly on those threads about each other's posts.

Well, I had been praying about this for some time because I just can't seem to keep myself from looking at the forum. Yesterday, a way was made. I was able to put the OM in a postition to where he had to reveal who he was on there. He started a thread that admitted his failures with me. I posted in return and admitted that I was the poster he was referring to. I asked other posters if the 2 of us should be posting on this forum and it seems that most agree we should not be there. The OM saw this as well (finally!) and he is not posting and either am I. It was quite emotional yesterday!

NOW...I need to tell my husband. I need to share with him what happened and how I struggled and how this ended. He is away right now until Saturday night, so I have a few days to think through this. I want to show him the exact thread this happened on, but at the same time I am worried that he may take some of my posts the wrong way. There were several that I sound conflicted and asked the OM to consider staying on the forum and that he had much to offer there. I wrote this without thinking it through as it was all happening so fast.

To be clear, my husband knew I was posting there, but I never told him the OM returned. I actually thought the OM left there in December, but he returned with a new s/n at the beginning of January.

I just need your advice here! Thanks!

Alright 2BN-

We're going to play a game. LOL...trust me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's the thing. You pretend to be me. Give me the advice you think I would give you in the exact same circumstance. Reread your post as though it was someone else's (mine)...and give me what YOU think Owl would say.

While you're doing that, I'll write my actual response to you in a Word .doc. And after you've posted, I'll respond with mine and we'll see how close they match.

My money is that you already know what I'm gonna say. You know what the right thing to do here is. What I really want to do is show you that you don't need anyone to help you with this...you simply have to do what you know is right.

So...start thinking and typing, and I'll do the same.

Ok Owl...as I wrote my post, I did know what you would say..LOL! I've been very emotional about this since yesterday afternoon and I cannot tell my husband until at least Saturday or Sunday! He returns Sat. night, so depending on the time and how tired he is, it may be better to wait until Sunday.

YOU would tell me to be totally HONEST with him! I plan to do that! I plan to share with him my struggles. He knew I struggled with this in the past, but when I thought the OM left the forum, I felt comfortable in posting and my husband let me. He never checked up on me though or asked me if the OM returned. Not an excuse...I know!

I am AFRAID of what he will think of these posts. These are the 2 things (on 2 separate posts)I said that I am worried about :

Quote

******

Quote

*****

How would you feel if you read this and it was your wife that wrote this to the OM (on a public forum) over a year since the EA ended?

I can explain it to him just as I told you. My emotions were running wild with what was happening. I was torn by what was going on because I knew it was hurting the OM.(he won't want to hear that!) I know the OM gains much from the forum (he won't want to hear that either!), but yet I knew the best thing possible is for NEITHER of us to post there. The OM admitted that he tried to "hide" from me and that he put up "blinders" to the fact that I was there on the forum!

I will tell him that I will not ever write on the forum again, unless I have his permission to do so in the future. I will tell him it was so very wrong of me for hiding this from him! I'm rambling here....

I need to add that those 2 "parts" of my posts were in response to him writing on his posts that he needs to say goodbye to everyone on the forum...

Pretty good 2BN...here's what I wrote. I'm going to quote it so that you can see what was already wrote before I came back and read your response.

Quote

2BN-

From what I’ve seen of how this seems to be going for you, I truly think that the BEST thing you can do for your marriage at this point is to walk away from that forum. It simply is NOT where you need to be, if OM is there.

Honestly, I feel that at least part of the reason you still go there is because you know that the odds are that you’ll see OM there again…just as you have.

And…by ‘admitting’ who you were to him (and others), you’ve resumed contact. There really is no other way to look at this. Honestly, if my wife resumed contact in this same manner, I’d be VERY hurt and upset. This would be a serious thing for me. And, it should be clear to you by now that your H is likely to view this the same way.

Once again, my friend, you’ve not held up YOUR end of the bargain struck when you both agreed to save your marriage. You promised to tell him if OM came back…you didn’t. You didn’t walk away when he DID come back and you knew it. YOU were the one who admitted who you were to OM on that site as well.

So, what are your steps to take care of this? From my perspective, you’re going to have to do something pretty ‘extraordinary’ to recover from this one. Personally, I suggest that you talk with your IT dept and have them block that website so that you can’t go there any longer. And then show your H an email from them so that he can see that you’ve done this.

As I’ve said before…continued “I’m sorry’s!” will eventually destroy your H’s ability to trust you, or to even believe that those “I’m sorry’s!” were real. A TRUE apology means two things…it’s telling the person that you’re apologizing to that you regret what you’ve done…and that you won’t hurt them in that fashion again.

As far as how to tell your H…I don’t know. There’s never a good way, but once again he’s now going to have to deal with two months worth of deception (since OM has been on the site since the beginning of Jan and you’ve never told him). In complete honesty with you, if my wife came to me with the same situation, I know I’d be angry, hurt, etc… And after the repeated trust issues that the two of you have already suffered, I’m not sure what kind of response that you can expect.

As far as how he'll respond to those two specific posts...you know him better than I do. Personally, I'd likely be so angry with my wife for responding at all that I'd likely tell her that if she truly feels that she's got to take care of him at the expense of me and our marriage, then I would give some serious thought as to where her love really is...him or me?

You CAN'T do anything to console, care for, nurture, etc... for OM and still do anything positive for your marriage. The two are diametrically opposed...it's just not possible. ANYTHING you do for OM is a direct subtraction from your H's love bank...period. No other way to view this, at least from where I'm at.

So...now you need to think about how you can regain the lost trust, and start getting some credits back into that love bank.

My thoughts anyway.

Thanks Owl...some things to think about.

I need to mention that the OM knew who I was on there since at least December (I can't be sure if he figured out who I was before that). If you remember the incident where I sent him a forward of some info about the forum (at the beginning of Dec.), and then he called my husband?? After that happened, I made a post on the forum to let him know I knew who he was. He knew it was me then and then he backed off the forum. I thought he was gone for good. But, January he reappeared with a new s/n trying to hide from me while knowing that I was posting.

We basically played a cat and mouse game with each other on the forum. He knew who I was and I figured out who he was (but he didn't know that until yesterday!) It was wrong wrong wrong...I admit that. I didn't have the willpower to walk away from the forum while he was posting there! I didn't think it was very fair that he played this "hiding game" from me and that I would have to leave the forum because he was playing this "hiding game". Yesterday, another poster asked the OM if had been on the forum in the past and had recently signed on with a new s/n in Jan. Someone else caught on to that he posted there in the past. That is where I asked him to tell the truth. I wanted it all exposed so that both of us had NO CHOICE but to BOTH leave the forum and that I would have peace from all of it.

I know you told me in the past to just walk away from there, but I'll tell you it wasn't that simple for me. To me there was more to it. I didn't feel the OM was playing fair! I didn't feel it was fair that I had to go and he could stay!

Maybe you don't understand, but it's how I felt and it was causing me such turmoil!

I'll consider everything you said. I do know the OM won't be back on the forum. He posted that he won't even come back under a new s/n since his posting style is "easily recognized".

BTW, both Mary and Cards know all the details...I just decided to get some extra confidence from you...I knew what you would say!

I'm sorry if my 2x4 seemed a bit harsh, and I do hope you realize it's not a personal attack on you. I simply wanted you to understand something that I've tried to make clear to you for a while now... THE LONGER YOU CARE AT ALL ABOUT THE OM IN ANY FASHION OR FORM, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO DO PERMENANT DAMAGE TO YOUR MARRIAGE. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative...you have got to let him go COMPLETELY.

If you don't, at some point it's entirely possible that your H will simply 'give up'. NO ONE can fight forever...we all get tired and weary at some point.

So 2BN, please start realizing that what you're doing could very well have long term repercussions that you've not thought about yet.

You've made the choice that your H and your marriage is more important to you...now you need to match your actions to your words. You need to APPLY that choice.

I can understand that it's not easy...but it's imperative that you do so NOW...before you find out what I'm telling you too late to be able to work things out.

So, to sum it up. Quit caring about whether OM should be on that site, quit letting him into your thoughts at all anymore. He is NOT your concern any longer...in any fashion. Focus instead on your MARRIAGE. If you don't, the risk is there that you could lose it if you don't maintain it.

Quote

THE LONGER YOU CARE AT ALL ABOUT THE OM IN ANY FASHION OR FORM, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO DO PERMENANT DAMAGE TO YOUR MARRIAGE. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative...you have got to let him go COMPLETELY.

I am letting go of him completely! In order for me to do that I had to make sure he wasn't posting on the forum.

Quote

I can understand that it's not easy...but it's imperative that you do so NOW...before you find out what I'm telling you too late to be able to work things out.

I have made the choice. I am no longer posting on that forum. The OM is no longer posting there. There is NO more connection to this man.

Quote

So, to sum it up. Quit caring about whether OM should be on that site, quit letting him into your thoughts at all anymore. He is NOT your concern any longer...in any fashion

I struggle with this statement. In order to get him OUT of my thoughts, the OM needed to be OFF the forum. It was completely WRONG for either of us to go back to the forum where it all started and post there. Neither of us should have been there. No he is NOT my concern, but I struggled that he went back there KNOWING I was there! He was deceitful in "hiding" from me on there.

Owl, I do understand you mean well and as a BS, I do understand where you are coming from. But, I had some issues that I deeply struggled with regarding that forum. For my own sanity in moving past this, I HAD to confront the OM on the forum and make him realize that NEITHER of us should be there. If I posted and he didn't post, he probably would read what I wrote, and therefore a "connection"....and the same in reverse. I didn't have the willpower to just walk away. I admit that. So I had to take care of it another way. IT IS DONE. IT IS OVER. There is no more contact with this man.

I'm glad to hear that it's done and over my friend. This is GREAT news.

I'm not sure that I'll truly understand your desire to drive him off of that forum. If the reasoning was so that he didn't prey on others, that's one thing. If it was because he 'didn't deserve' to be on that forum...realize that this is simply a way for you to 'get back' at him. Which was still paying some attention to him.

My wife and I saw her OM in game right at about a year after the EA ended. It bothered the heck out of me. I got the shakes, the desire to "do something about it". But, my wife kept her calm. She told me that it scared her at first, but then she knew that he'd have no way to know who she was, so she simply stayed away from the areas he was in game. And, I completely believe that she truly didn't care if he was there or not. She never realized that he quit playing again a few weeks later...but I did. In her mind, she'd made the choice not to care AT ALL about whether he was there or not, as long as he didn't actively intrude on her or I. He never tried to contact either of us, nor did she ever even try to see what he was up to in game. She had let him go.

Now...if she suddenly started showing an interest or concern in him again in any fashion, I'd still react strongly to that.

Does this make any sense to you my friend?

Again, glad to hear that you've made the right choice...now, stick to it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl,
First off, the OM's wife does not even know he posted on that forum, let alone that he was posting there "knowing" I was there! HE chose to post there KNOWING full well that I was on there against what he knew in his heart would hurt his wife if she knew. The other posters told him, on Wed., that he needs to have his wife's APPROVAL to be posting on the forum where we met. They also told me the same. That I need to have my husband's approval to post there. Good advice for both of us!

I guess for the rightness in all of this, I felt it was best for neither of us to be there. I was NOT a "getting back at him", or "worried that he would prey on someone". It was more of a RIGHT vs. WRONG thing. I guess I do care in a sense in that I do want him to do what is right for his marriage and to honor his wife. In that way, I do care and I don't think that is the wrong kind of caring. It was NEVER done with an intent to get back at him or cause harm or to get him to want to talk to me. It was for a protection for both of our marriages!

There are PLENTY of other Christian forums for him to go to and share his thoughts. He was drawn to this particular forum because he was familiar with it and trusted many of the poster's thoughts and theology. He made the statement in one of his posts on Wed., that "not posting" on this forum will be a consequence to the sin, and he accepted that and that he would not return unless the Lord led him back there and he had his wife's approval. I need to do the same. I needed this to happen for closure in this entire mess!

Owl, this is different that "seeing" a name on a gamesite. It's reading posts...maybe 20 a day that share thoughts and feeling from the heart. Your wife wasn't seeing actual conversations that her former OM was having with other people. She wasn't seeing his words spoken somewhere.

I don't even know if all of this makes any sense to you. But, I do have peace now! I know I will be able to move past this now.

2BN-

This is going to sound a little harsher than I truly mean it, so please take that into account.

You've been here on MB long enough to know 'the rules' so to speak. You understand what is expected as part of NC...and bluntly, while I can understand your desire to be there, if you've got a desire to save your marriage you really have no business even MONITORING a site that OM posts on. And, since you WERE there, you know that you should have immediately told H that he was posting again, and LEFT the site.

There are no real two ways about this...if you truly want to get past the A and heal your marriage, this is what should have happened. Going there to that site where you met OM simply should not have continued.

We may just have to agree to disagree on this point friend, because this really is pretty black and white to me.

I'm anxious to hear how your weekend with H went...I hope that it wasn't a major catastrophe. Let us know how you're doing friend!!

Hi Owl,

I told my H yesterday. Of course he was disappointed as to be expected, but he is really OK now. I know it still put a "little wedge" between us, but he moves on pretty quickly. I explained everything as best as I could to him. He had no interest at all in reading that thread or anything the OM or I wrote on the forum. He basically has NO INTEREST in forums whatsoever. I told him that I will not be posting there anymore and that the OM will not be posting there either. I admitted I was wrong in how I handled it and should not have been there knowing the OM was there.

I haven't read the forum today and I'm making "efforts" to not go there and read. It really is in my best interest(and my marriage's) to not go there and to possibly put myself in the path of the OM in the future (should he decided to go back and post at a later date).

Owl, I need to ask you this based on what you wrote above. I do understand where you are coming from and that I should have just left the forum when the OM came back. I guess I tried to handle it on my own in a way that would help me move past it. My question is that when your wife saw that the OM was back on the game site, did you require her to get off the site? You said that it didn't bother her that he was there, but he WAS there right? And she handled it in her OWN way, by staying off the part of the site that the OM was on. Now, I'm not your W, but as a WW, I know she HAD to have thought about him being there and it HAD to affect her in some way. Any sight of a past OM, has to have some affect...I really believe that your W has moved on quite well...I'm just questioning that maybe she didn't tell you how it affected her?

I would agree that she really didn't want me to know that it bothered her that OM was on...perhaps she was afraid I'd overreact to his being there, especially if I knew that she felt anything about him being there.

I will reiterate that it bothered ME that he was there...and it did bother me that she was still in game as well. What HELPED was that I was able to verify that she DIDN'T have anything to do with him. This was done a few ways...she made a point of grouping up with our sons when she logged in game, plus I could see the log files from the game and verify that he didn't contact her or vice versa.

So, knowing that she DIDN'T contact him helped me, but just the simple fact that he was there and it COULD happen bothered me quite a bit. I was very relieved when he quit logging in...and have been glad that none of us have seen him on since. At least, not on any char that we could tell was his...nor has there been any indication that he's tried to contact her in ANY fashion...or vice versa.

Honestly, I WANTED to tell her to stay off the game for a while...but didn't push for that when I saw how she handled things. She took a few other measures to ensure that he wouldn't have known who she was in game, and so given those reassurances plus what she was doing to prove to me that she wouldn't allow any issues to come up, I didn't try to make leaving the game a requirement. Now, we DID discuss what we would do if he contacted her...and leaving the game for a while (or moving to a different server base which would have made it virtually impossible for him to find us) was definitely on the table.

Hope this helps you to understand our situation a little better. Even now, the thought of my wife resuming ANY kind of contact with OM is not something I'd care to dwell on. I really don't know that I would react in nearly the calm, thoughtful way that your H has.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that things went well. As far as not going back to that site...as I suggested, you might consider talking with your IT team and see if they can block that site for you. Just a suggestion.

Thanks for explaining the situation better. It does sound like she handled it well. I guess from the standpoint that in a game, you are NOT reading written words of the OM as in my situation in the forum. At least you were able to verify that they had NO communication between the 2 of them

I had purposely engaged in a couple of threads that OM was on (within the last month) and he "responded" to my questions and the debate of the thread, but he didn't "let on" that he knew it was me. He "tried" to treat me as any other poster that would have posted. No excuse for what I did, but my reasons (and dumb ones) were to make the OM realize that I knew it was him...but I don't ever think he caught on to that until I made him aware of that last Wed. So, I wonder why he chose to engage in those posts with me on those few threads when he knew it was me? He claims to have put up "blinders" to the fact that I was there, but he could have just ignored me and left the thread. Oh well, I analyze too much and this is behind me now!

Quote

I really don't know that I would react in nearly the calm, thoughtful way that your H has.

Well, he didn't react calmly! He was angry and disappointed when I told him. He is just very calm about it now and is over it.

Quote

As far as not going back to that site...as I suggested, you might consider talking with your IT team and see if they can block that site for you.

We don't have an IT dept. We are a small office of 11 here. No separate departments. It will have to be all on me to not go there. I did try to figure out how to block the site on my own, but I can't figure that out! Each day that I don't go there...I'm sure I'll get stronger in it. Doing well so far today!

Page out to Cardsonly and 2BN and IWRA and Sysyphus...there is a poster named Dolias who has a thread and could use your input and advice....thank you friends!

Thanks Owl. I'll take a look, however, it seems that my words are not welcomed here lately.

Well, just remember...

"I got yer back, Sistah!"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Owl! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Hey, I got a free book from my email being read on Dr. Harley's radio program last week. They sent me Surviving an Affair. We never bought that book, so it will be good to read it.

Very cool. Don't tell anyone this...but I've never read SAA or HNHN at all! LOL! Glanced through both of them at the book store a time or two...but that's about it.

Actually the only stuff I've read from the Harley's was the info on this site.

It's sad how many times we see cases EXACTLY like what Sys and I went through here...he and I got lucky that we found out before it went PA, but that was just the way things worked out for us.

Keep posting here friend...IMHO it helps a lot to have a FWW who can help people see that side of things, since we know that most WW's are unable to tell their side of things while they're still in the A.

Still looking like my time at MB may be drawing to an end...career changes coming up soon, and won't be able to post/read much or at all. We'll see what happens.

I actually wished they sent me HNHN, but I guess I can't complain about a free book! We had read Torn Assunder together right after I confessed to my husband over a year ago. BTW, yesterday was my one year anniversary on MB!! Time has sure changed things for me and my husband. We are doing quite well now, and I do see a great recovery for our marriage!

Keep us posted on your career change!

Owl-
Have a question for you..

2BN-

Have an answer for you...but I'm not promising a RIGHT answer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My original question to you was how to get a moderator to respond. I sent several emails requesting "that thread" (if you don't know which one, I'll tell you) be locked and then deleted and then to take care of the request I made to ML.

I know you reported a post last week and I was wondering if you received a response from the moderator?

Anyways, not sure if my request will be handled or not. I'm not exactly thrilled that my name was posted on this forum.

At the bottom of the GQII main page you'll see links to all of the moderators. Click on those, and it will bring up their profile, to include their MB point of contact email address. Drop an email to one (or all) of them outlining the problem, including the thread name and specific issue.

I did get a response from Justuss last week on the issue then...given recent events, I have sent a subsequent email to him as well.

Good luck...I'm sure that they'd be willing to either delete the thread or remove your name. I'm not sure what kind of other action they'll consider, even given what all has taken place.

I copied all of the moderators on the GQII main page as well as justuss, but I did not receive a reply. I requested that the thread be deleted or that my name be removed from ML's posts. They only locked the thread with no reply to me. But, perhaps they want to evaluate all that was said before deleting the thread.

I'm pretty tired of this same issue popping up. I'm tired of the personal attacks. I have let it go and have made clear statements last week on my position for the best of my marriage at this time.

Some GOOD NEWS though. I don't know if I mentioned this in my past posts, but it had been hard for my husband to actually think about celebrating our 20th anniversary coming up. I've posted recently on how my husband has now changed and has granted total forgiveness to me. This has soooo changed our marriage and our recovery. He called me today to say that he feels our marriage IS worth celebrating and that he wants to plan something SPECIAL for our 20th anniversary! God is good! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AWESOME!!!

It does take time for us BS's to get to a point where we really do 'forgive' everything. I got to that point pretty quick compared to many from what I've seen here, but even so it took quite a while.

Good news on my front...I've accepted a new position within my company that is MUCH more along my skillset than what I'm doing now. And honestly I've not been able to enjoy this job...it was literally at the same time that I took this position that the A took place, and it's been hard to shake that association sometimes. So the new job is something of a 'fresh start' for me too.

Good for you Owl with your new position! Will this enable you to continue posting here?

I'm not sure that I'll be able to post as often in the new position...we'll have to see how that works out.

With the way things are going at this point, it's probably a good timing thing for me to be leaving this forum anyway. I've got a few friends that I'll miss, but overall I think it would likely make a lot of others happier to see me gone.

Well, I hope you can drop by every once in awhile to let us know how you are doing.

I don't think I'll be posting as much anymore as it just gets frustrating. This is one of the reasons why Cards and ItWon'tRainAlways and I have taken our conversations off of this board for the most part.

You had a good post on that thread....it was right on! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl, I posted to you on Mimi's thread, hope you noticed it.
You are SUCH A GOOD counselor; you don't like me to use the word WISE but you do have very good judgment and give very good advice. I agree with 2BNormal and hope you keep posting.

I was on this very thread that Cardsonly started when you gave your first post. 1282 posts ago.

I am so happy for you and your wife, that your marriage is healed and you are happy and content and have rekindled the love you have always had for one another.
(Sometimes in life we get side-tracked but PRAISE GOD that we can get back on the right road again and PRAISE GOD for forgiving spouses.)

I have a book called: "God Allows U-Turns." And HE DOES.~smile~

Below is Owl's very first post:

Owl
Member

Reged: 01/20/05
Posts: 1282

Re: HELP! WITHDRAWING FROM PAINFUL ONLINE AFFAIR
#1268293 - 03/08/05 12:29 AM
Edit post Edit Reply to this post Reply Reply to this post Quote Quick Reply Quick Reply

Well, I just got done reading this thread, and wanted to post what I hope is a "bit of hope" to all of you ladies dealing with this.

I'm the BS in my situation...my wife had an online emotional affair that I discovered about 10 months ago.

It started out with online gaming. We'd been married 17 years, and she was feeling a lot like you were Cards. She felt as though I didn't love her (not true, but it was a matter of not properly meeting each other's EN's). She was home all the time alone during the day, and she met someone in game that she began to spend a lot of time with.

They would make arrangements to play together a lot, and finally began conversations via IM's, end eventually got to the point where they were calling each other fairly regularly.

They had been to the point where they were convinced that they were in love with each other for about two months when I finally got the proof of the affair in a chat log conversation that I managed to capture on her computer. Needless to say, reading that log hurt me more than anything you can possibly imagine.

When I confronted her about it, the two of them IMMEDIATELY made plans for her to go live with him...although they had never once met face to face! (she had ONE digital picture of him...he had a few of her)Long story short, she moved out of the house for about a week before she was supposed to fly away, but ended up staying. It took another month and a half before the NC FINALLY stuck. It was always something...every week, they'd both agree to NC...and every week, one of them would break it.

I know that they've not had contact now for 8 months. But here's the hope I promised you... You see, once my wife made it through the withdrawl, and completely ended contact with the OM, our marriage HAS gotten much better. We didn't know about this site then, but I've used it and others to help me get a handle on what we've gone through. Marriage counseling is a MUST, IMO, if you're going to recover from this.

She's glad she stayed home...glad she didn't leave, glad that our love was strong enough to survive this test. And I honestly think that you'll end up feeling the same way, Cards. Just hang in there, don't give up on your husband. It sounds as though he loves you dearly. And realize that right now, you're hard pressed to seperate your feelings to KNOW what you're feeling for him.

Please, get to counseling ASAP. Find someone who understands infidelity,and can help the both of you find out what EN's you had that weren't being met. And find ways to fix them.

A great book that helped my wife and I a lot..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools For a Great Marriage by Dr Steve Stephens". Take a look at that. My wife and I were astounded at how many of those things we started doing on our own after we began re-building our marriage. And at how doing a lot of those might have prevented the affair in the first place.

Hang in there...dont give up, don't break down and contact the OM. He's not what you need in your life. You've already got a man willing to meet all your needs. All you've got to do is to get back to the point where you'll let him.

Hi everyone,
I was just popping in to see how everyone is doing. I'm doing ok. It's sure not easy. Pretty much been the worst year of my life, I'm hoping things will get better. My dad is also dying of cirrhosis, and my brother had extremely preemie twins born, was touch and go. Just trying to make it day to day.

Dating is interesting. Though I have great trust issues still, trying to work through. Very slowly.

Anways, take care all.

Owl I think you should stay =)

--win

Win - It's been a VERY long time since we heard from you!

I'm sorry the year didn't get much better for you. Are you and your H not together anymore? How are your kids?

Fill us in....

My H and I are getting divorced, yes. He's had a gf for about 6 mo. but they recently split up. He was about to introduce her to the kids, when things went bad i guess. We are trying to finalize things at the moment. He is fighting me on the child support.

My kids seem to be doing well. We try to be amicable for them and do everything for the good of them. We don't talk negative in front of them. I still feel bad for the kids but am trying to do what I can to give them 2 loving parents. But its hard.

--win

I'm sorry for how hard all of this has been. It sounds like you are doing the best you can to protect your kids from the pain.

Keep in touch....

Thanks, hope you are all doing well. I'm still in therapy so that is helping. I find I have a lot of trust issues, and I'm terrified to get serious with anyone. Though, it's of course, still too soon. Maybe in a few years. I have been seeing someone, but its not too serious. He's nice, its fun.

take care
win

Win-

Glad to hear that you're dealing things. It's going to take time for either of you to recover personally from what all you both went through is my guess.

I won't be posting here much, if at all anymore. I was asked by someone to come back to help someone with a specific issue that is very much like what I went through, but honestly feel like there's little use (or desire) for my posts on this forum any longer.

Hope everyone is doing well.

Owl -
Your posts are VERY helpful on this forum! Your way of responding...."especially" to us FWWs is very helpful and much needed on this forum!

Your posts have personally affected my recovery in a very positive way...I hope you'll stick around! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

p.s.
Owl - Read again the posts that Cards, IWRA and I posted on this thread on 2/10 and you will see HOW you have helped tremendously!

Cardsonly it might help us get some clarity and understanding if you could explain some of your former postings for us, how they canbe reconciled with what you've posted more recently.

Cardsonly you posted this in March of 2005:

"I did crazy things while in the "fog" to immerse myself into the A, anything to make if feel more real (having his "scent", seeing his weather 2000 miles away, buying a webcam, etc)."

You seemed to get it that those activities led to you feeling more immeresed in the affair.

But then you posted many times in your thead that you were holding onto things that reminded you of the OM, including an eyeglass case that you had stored a sample of his cologne in so it smelled like him. You said throughout the day you'd get a reminder of him because of that scent.

Yet you blamed your BH for not making you feel better, not replacing the good feelings the OM gave you, not listening to you talk about how good it felt for you to have OM's attention, and how awful it was for you to go without those feelings.

You never gave your BH a fighting chance as long as you continued to romanticize and embrace memories of the OM.

You MAJORLY exaggerated and dwelled on the intensity, feelings, and meaning of the OM/affair. You wanted your BH to realize the IMPORTANCE of the OM to you. It is not a recovery step to validate the adultery in any way, to pretend that it was real love, anything more than a cheap thrill.

I do understand why some WS's do this. They desperately want to avoid repsonsibility for what they've done. It helps if they pretend that SURELY this OP, this affair, was something really intense, and real, and important... because the alternative is facing the fact that they did something very cruel and destructive for NOTHING.

It was nothing special.
He was just some creep who cheated on his wife.
And then he chose his wife instead of you.

You wanted to pretend to your husband that this OM was better to you than he was, that your BH was failing to measure up to this OM, not making you feel as good as this OM made you feel.

That's not recovery.

Excellent post MM...AGREE!!!

Mrs. W

Quote

Cardsonly it might help us get some clarity and understanding if you could explain some of your former postings for us, how they canbe reconciled with what you've posted more recently.

uhhhh...haven't followed cardsonly, but maybe an answer to your question is "over two years that have passed since the last post on this thread???"

Check out her thread in the dating forum.

OWL, I totally agree with this advice you gave in this thread (to a different poster I think - not to cardsonly but it applies to her too since she posted so much about the OM, the feelings he gave her, how she kept reminders of him, and how she wanted her BH to meet 'her EN' of wanting to tell her BH more than he wanted to listen to about the OM:

"I'm sorry if my 2x4 seemed a bit harsh, and I do hope you realize it's not a personal attack on you. I simply wanted you to understand something that I've tried to make clear to you for a while now... THE LONGER YOU CARE AT ALL ABOUT THE OM IN ANY FASHION OR FORM, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO DO PERMENANT DAMAGE TO YOUR MARRIAGE. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative...you have got to let him go COMPLETELY.

If you don't, at some point it's entirely possible that your H will simply 'give up'. NO ONE can fight forever...we all get tired and weary at some point."

IMHO cardsonly destroyed her marriage with her obsession over the OM.

She is now trying desperately to replace that chemical high she got from the OM with rebound relationships.

When she finally goes through withdrawal and/or bottoms out (the way addictions eventually end) she will be able to restore her marriage to her BH (if he's still waiting in something like a Plan B) or to start a healthy relationship with a man in her future.

She says it's been two years since her divorce but she has been dating all that time so she has not put in 2 years towards the advised 1 year of recovery for every 5 years of marriage before starting a new relationship. She was so obsessing over the OM during the last part of her marriage, and has been dating new men ever since, that she hasn't really given her BH a chance.

We have no idea whether her BH is still open to reconciliation, waiting for his WW to get off her roller coaster and defog.

And this can't possibly be good for her teen children - their WM destroyed their family and has since gotten involved with two new OM in such a short time!

Originally Posted by Ragamuffin

Check out her thread in the dating forum.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2103098&fpart=1

(posted by owl):

"If your H had posted here...we would have ALL had to rely on him telling the truth of your situation. You've already indicated he probably wouldn't have.

So we would have provided advice based on whatever lie he told in the first place.

All we can provide advice on is what's in front of us. Had he come here and not stated that you were open to reconciliation...I would have had no input one way or another on whether or not your marriage was recoverable or not."

So in other words you would have given whatever assistance he asked for to continue his adultery? You would have simply assumed he was telling the truth without questioning it?

"Let me ask you this...if a BS came to this site telling us that they were divorced from their WS...would you recommend to them that they try to reconcile with their WS as the first course of action? If they said nothing about wanting to reconcile with that WS?"

If it was a long-term marriage with children, the XS wasn't already married to somebody else, and they hadn't had a chance to try MB principles before the divorce - YES.

However, a BS getting a divorce because their XS cheated on them is not equivalent with a WS getting a divorce because their BS can't possibly satisfy their craving for the chemical high of adultery ASAP so they don't have to go through withdrawal symptoms.

A BS has moral and legal grounds for divorce, a WS who just wants their next fix from their addiction may have legal grounds for divorce (selfishness IS a good enough excuse in 'no-fault' states) but not moral grounds.

Originally Posted by ForeverHers

Quote

Cardsonly it might help us get some clarity and understanding if you could explain some of your former postings for us, how they canbe reconciled with what you've posted more recently.

uhhhh...haven't followed cardsonly, but maybe an answer to your question is "over two years that have passed since the last post on this thread???"

In this old thread, cardsonly (her posting name is a private joke between her and OM#1) praised her BH for all the effort he was putting in for recovery, and for being a very involved parent (she actually blamed her affair on them BOTH being too involved in parenting that they neglected the marriage relationship).

But then in her new thread she villifies her BXH, claiming she shouldered all the parenting responsibilities alone, that he refused to meet her EN's, and that he is severely mentally ill...

(Also she claims she had to get out of the marriage because staying with her husband was so damaging for her...because of his mental health issues...but she left him for OM#2 who she says has the SAME mental health issues... I'm wondering how that justification can be reconciled then.)

So far OM#3 hasn't been diagnosed with severe mental illness...

cardsonly -

When did you meet OM#2 - before or after your divorce?

Also you justify the divorce by saying your BH was diagnosed as severely mentally ill, but you also said that he wasn't diagnosed as such until after the divorce, and you said that your BH is theone who divorced you? What was your BH's grounds for divorce? Did he find the messages from OM#1 that you were holding on to? Or did he finally crack because you wouldn't stop trying to tell him more about the OM and affair than HE needed/wanted to know? Or was it because of OM#2?