Cards-

Please take this as an observation, not as a 2x4. Wanting 'closure' is still looking back, not looking forward. GS is on the money with what she says about the end of your A, my friend...at least in my guess too.

Realize this...that there is no 'good way' to end an A. These almost never end in any way that all parties walk away from feeling like it's a done deal. It just doesn't happen. But the best way to deal with that feeling is to put your focus back on your M, and not let yourself dwell on how it ended.

I'll be honest...I do think that there's still a little fog in your eyes. It's not enough to totally cloud your vision, but it IS still obscuring your view of your next steps in moving forward with your H. The fact that you can ask that question speaks volumes of how far you've come though.

Trust the advice of those that have been where you are, or have loved someone who's been in your position. Keep your focus on your goal, and avoid looking over your shoulder. Talk with your husband about this need for closure too...take a look at the advice I gave Sys on his thread about how to deal with his wife. Talking about your feelings is the BEST way to begin re-investing yourself in your husband. Maybe see if he can read Sys's thread, or this thread and see some of the suggestions we've all made if he's not comfortable with talking about feelings.

Keep your chin up, and take a look at those next steps you need to take to move forward friend!

Cards, I wanted to add to what Owl said about closure and how you "feel" you need it. I had "felt" like I needed it as well and had several other contacts with the OM (as you know) after D-day. Yes, I did find out some things and I'm not sure how helpful it was now that I look back. It kept my focus so it wasn't 100% on my M. I was still looking back and wanting to know "things". As I look back and think of the whole thing after D-Day, there was really no "good closure". There was no "perfect good-bye". And there never will be! Our focus should be that we and the OM in our lives made the "right choice" to end the "A" and feel good that we made "that choice" for us and our "M's".

I wanted to add too that it is important for your H to realize how large this EA was for you even though it was a short EA. This is where the few sessions in MC really helped my H realize this. Also we read the book "Torn Asunder" together and it opened his eyes to it as well. Even last night as I was telling my husband all the "traces" of the OM that I had hidden and had to rid of, he was even realizing how BIG this was to me. Somehow you will have to find a way to communicate that to your H whether through counseling or another way.

Keep moving forward Cards - You really are progressing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cards-

Reading this, my first thought is that its likely that your husband IS somewhat in denial...or in the next phase, which is minimzing. He wants to make it into something less than it is...because he doesn't really want to face how big it was.

The only way I can imagine to deal with this would be for YOU to show him how big it is to YOU. He may not see this in the same scale as you do...fine...but he should still understand how big this is to you...which then makes it into something bigger for the BOTH of you.

Tell him how serious it was/is. If I remember, you're not doing MC, as he doesn't see the need. Let him know that YOU need the MC...that YOU need to get this dealt with, even if he's fine with it. And in MC, tell the counselor how big this was/is to you.

If he refuses to go to MC...make him understand how damaging this whole thing was to YOU...and that you won't take no for an answer. Working on your marriage requires both parties to work on it...and if he keeps minimizing and not doing his part, he's not helping YOU either.

There was no chance to minimize my situation, no way that it could have been kept small. When he bought her plane tickets to fly away and live with him, that ensured that the whole thing was escalated to a point where there was no turning back or burying my head in the sand. You can't minimze the destruction of a family. In fact, it was my wife who minimzed things at the time, by trying to make it seem like we'd all just be some kind of 'extended family' thing.

It sounds to me like your husband needs someone from outside of the marriage to show him how serious this really is. That's why I suggest MC...because that's a neutral, third-party 'expert'...and if HE shows it was serious, maybe your husband can take it that way too.

There is one other thing to consider...what do you do if he never does 'get it'? What needs is he not fulfilling due to this behavior? What could the long term results be? Does he realize that? TALKING is the key to all of this...you note that you're communicating better now...time to make use of that.

Just my thoughts friend...

I don't want it to sound like I am stuck in the EA, because I am not. It is over! But I do occasionally think of contact with OM just for the closure - no other reason. What stops me from doing that is playing out the conversation in my head. I'm sure it would be exactly what you all say it would be-disappointing at best. I do not have thoughts of starting back up, rather the thoughts are about the ending. So, yes, there still may be a cloud of fog surrounding this issue for me.

I think you are right, 2BN & Owl, I need to get my H to accept what has happened. I think I will try to get him to read some of the threads on here. Thanks for your suggestions!

Cards-

I don't know if I've ever posted this thread here before, so this may be info you've already got. Or not. This my story from the LS website...have him take a look at it if you think it might help. Ask him if what I've felt/dealt with is anything similar to how he's felt on the whole thing. Suggest that he look for Sys's thread here and over there as well..and have him read 2B's thread as well.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t49539/

He may be disregarding how damaging this is because of the 'fantasy' aspect of it all...I've known a number of people who felt that this kind of thing isn't a 'real affair'...whatever that is. Just because you weren't physical with your OM doesn't minimize what happened...and while this may make you feel bad to admit to him, you might consider letting your husband know what you were feeling, and what might have happened had you met with your OM in person. I don't know much about the content of your conversations with the OM, but it might make more impact on your H if you also make sure that he understood all of what was discussed...and if there was a sexual connotation to anything in your R with the OM as well.

I don't know how much of this pertains, or for sure that it will make a difference. I'm also a little concerned that he may take this as you 'rubbing his nose in it'...also not a good thing. Give some serious thought in how to deal with this, and bounce it off of a qualified counselor if you can.

Good luck friend.

Cards - These were my reasons for the continued contact with the OM. I did not desire going back to the EA, and I do realize that is not your desire as well. BUT, the contact still left me in turmoil and still wanting to know more things. Even that last email from the OM about his son did not "fufill" everything for me for closure. There was still no really "perfect" good-bye or ending with this last information given to me. I have to let him go and trust that God will take care of him and his family.

What is it from the OM that you feel you need closure on? Think about it and think if it will really help you to move on in your M.

Owl-



Yes, this is exactly my fear, Owl. Probably why I am unable to completely let go of that person that was filling a need - I may not be trusting that H will be able to do that.

Yes, I will direct him to your thread. Maybe some of it will hit home with him. He can read it and absorb it alone without me talking about it. Thank you.

Same advice I'd given you earlier, my friend. TELL him that you've got that worry. Talk with him about those needs, talk about how they can be met, and work with him to figure out how he can meet them. Make sure he understands how important meeting those needs are...how critical this kind of maintenance is to a marriage.

Cards and 2BN-

Thought I'd ask the two of you a question, if you don't mind.

Try to put yourself in my wife's position for a moment. We're coming up on a year past d-day...right now was when her A was just getting serious. Looking back, I don't think that it was really an EA as long as she'd thought...at first, she was convinced it was months, but after the fog started to lift, it looked more like 6-8 weeks. But I've still got the cell phone records from back then, and it looks to me like it was closer to just a few weeks (maybe 4) based on that.

She's past the A, over the OM. Really regrets that it ever happened. Wants to let it go completely and totally...

We're doing very well together. Lots of love and support, things between her and I are as good as they've ever been.

So, the question. Today was a 'trigger day'. It was a year ago today that she crossed a line that she shouldn't have....a year ago today, she called the OM for the first time. (at least according to the cell phone records) It was while I was out at the store for something, and sadly enough, she was on the phone with me when he tried calling her...she called him back as soon as our conversation ended...and then called ME right back after that.

I know this from the phone records. Haven't talked with her about it at all. And my question is, should I? It was a trigger this morning when I thought about it based on the date, and I've been down since then. But I can't see where it would do much good to talk with her about it, since there's really nothing for her to do. Would you want your husband to talk to you about this? Or not? Thoughts?

Owl-

If I understand you correctly, you have not ever brought up this discovery with her, right? I think it's a tough question because probably your W does not want to go back to talking about this piece that is a year old. BUT, you are still being hurt by it. The answer may be different for different people, but knowing how hurt you have been by hidden details I think it warrants you bringing it up. You have addressed this over & over to us about being honest about everything and communicating your feelings. Since this issue has continued to be a source of pain for you, it makes sense that you ask the question, even though she may not receive the discussion well. Are you afraid of her reaction at bringing it up?

I am intrigued, though, that you would remember this date. Do you remember a lot of the dates relating to the EA?

I am wondering, OWL, what keeps YOU from not letting the EA go? I am asking because, as you know, I am really searching to answer these same questions for myself.

I continue to mull over the issues discussed here over the last couple days regarding my situation. I somewhat feel like a complainer - on the one hand happy that my H is able to let the EA go & not dwell on it; but then whining that he doesn't realize how big a deal it is. More thought needed on this!!!

Owl, I've read your question and have been thinking about how I would feel in that situation. My husband and I have talked about many things like this, but mostly it's me bringing it up to him. I certainly would have no problem if my husband would mention this to me and just told me he was having a down day because of the trigger. It seems like the reason you want to bring this up is for "you" and not to be mad or angry at her. You know and realize she is OVER the A, and there is no question regarding that.

Have you never gone over those phone records with her at all? Or is it just this particular day you never talked about? I know that my husband still has the phone records from calls I made to the first OM. I didn't have any phone records to trace with the 2nd OM because he mostly called me. Even after awhile with the first OM, we hid things by using phone cards. But, we did have a similar situation to which you described. My husband was out on a business trip and he called me in the morning before I left for work. When he called me I was on the line with the 2nd OM, but we have call waiting and I put the OM on hold while I spoke with my husband and then returned back to the OM. This was a trigger in itself on that very day to my husband, but a trigger for the first OM. My husband KNEW my voice did not seem right and that I seemed to want him off the phone fast. My husband had no clue about OM # 2 at the time. We have talked about this since D-Day and I am pretty sure he is the one that brought it up.

I honestly feel that if you evaluate your reasons for wanting to talk to your wife about this and talk about it in a non-threatening way, it should be ok. Maybe just tell her you were looking over the phone records and you were feeling down by it. My husband and I talked about all the phone calls to the OM, but I also volunteered the information to him. However, if he were to ask me of anything he wasn't sure of or bothered him still, I know I would be ok with it.

Hope this helps some. If you have any other questions, I'll try to answer.

I just now read through Card's response and had one of the same questions as Cards. You seem to remember alot of dates from the EA. My husband doesn't really recall dates. I had even asked when D-Day was and he could not tell me a date. He knew in general it was close to Christmas but no date came to his mind. It's hard for me to understand that part of which you hold on to dates and remembrances, but I guess it does affect each BS differently.

Cards-

Well, I have to say that part of the reason I've had trouble letting go of the EA is because it's very hard for me to forget most things. Its just the way my mind works.

I do remember dates, events, etc... associated with the EA. And now that we've reached that 'one year mark', it's a little more in my mind now than it had been for a while. My expectations are that it will likely fade quite a bit once this next month has come and gone.

My wife knows that we're 'in that time frame', but not much more than that. She knows of a few events that are coming up that will be trigger points for me, such as Mother's Day and a personal event that my son has going next week. But as far as this phone call thing goes, I've not talked with her about it. But, after giving it a little more thought, it's not a huge thing, and I really just need to drop the darned thing.

I still have trouble focusing on now and the future sometimes, just as you do my friend. It's a bad habit of mine to keep reviewing the past, and it's one that I AM trying to change.

In your case, I would think that your biggest concern at this point is that if your husband doesn't take this seriously, that he won't make the needed changes in your marriage to make things work out for you both. You ARE glad that he's not as hurt by this as he could be, but at the same time scared that it could happen again...or even just that things will go back to what they were before the EA.

Talk with him about that. Let him know that these are your fears.

Thanks for the thoughts friend.

Owl, I replied above, but have another thought since you now posted a reply to Cards. If you NEVER talked about the phone calls, whether it's just this one or all of them, I don't think it's unreasonable to bring it up to your wife. As you stated, you are in a bad "period" right now with reaching that one year mark and alot of triggers are occurring for you. You have always "stressed" communication to us with our spouses and if this is really bothering you then communication is necessary. Just my thoughts here...

I appreciate all the replies back friends. And the more I've thought about this 'trigger', the less stressed I'm feeling about it. This morning, I started reliving d-day in mind while I was getting ready for work, and thinking about this phone call thing. I posted here, debating on whether or not I should discuss this with my wife. But after giving it a bit, I'm feeling better about things, and gotten it back into perspective. It's in the past. It's done, and it's nothing to worry about now.

So, with that said, I may mention it in passing tonite when my wife and I sit down over a cup of coffee after the kids go to bed. Just let her know that it crossed my mind, but that I didn't let it eat at me all day or anything. And make sure she knows how much I love and appreciate the way things are now between us. (BTW, Cardsonly....my wife and I now spend almost every evening playing card games with each other online towards the end of the night...it's become more and more our game of choice lately!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

I'm going to work harder on letting the whole thing go too. Its in the past, and my life is sooo much better now than then.

Thank you both for your insights.

Owl, glad to hear that you worked through this and discovered it wasn't as important as you thought.

I'm having trouble with still thinking "back" these last couple of days since everything was revealed to my husband. I don't want to go back, but my mind still thinks there occasionally. Something to look forward to though...my husband and I were asked to go to a marriage seminar training that is a day long next month. Our church is having this seminar to try to use "key couples" in our church to have this foundation. Once we are trained, we can use this information learned to help other couples that may come to us. I haven't said this in the past, but my husband has a position at our church, so we are considered "key" to the church. At first I didn't think it was a good idea for my husband and I, but as I looked into a bit, I think it will be good for us and we will learn much for our own marriage.

Cards, how have you been lately? Did you and you husband ever get some alone time last weekend?

2BN-

I'm wondering how you're feeling these last few days after the contacts with the OM. You said you were thinking "back". Do you feel a state of withdrawal again? I would think all of that would have taken quite an emotional toll.

The marriage training sounds great, as you two are both committed to being on the right track. It can only help you at this point.

I have to admit to feeling a bit discouraged lately with regards to my situation. I am still pondering the next steps to take, but have backed off on "thinking" about it so much in the last couple days. I think it's wise that I continue to take things slowly because I do think OM thoughts are less and less frequent, which helps me see more clearly.

Owl, I've been thinking lots about whether or not to share more about the EA with H. In one sense I WANT to tell ALL the details so H understands the depth of it and I would be free of them (the details), but I can't believe that "forcing" him to hear all the details would really be productive. I also wonder, as time goes on, if I will have less and less of a need to cleanse myself of the details anyway. Maybe that's just another way of "self-medicating" by bringing up OM? What do you think? I know that if things were reversed, I would want to hear it all, but he's just not interested.

You make a good point about the fact that in your case there was no gray area in what was happening next - your W was taking major steps to further the R with OM. My H can FEEL secure in the fact that nothing more than chatting was happening in my case. Is it really necessary for me to tell him that something beyond that might have happened? What good would that do? At this point I am going to focus on going forward with H and not revisiting the past, which is what he wants to do.

We have talked about the EN's and how to prevent a recurrence, and I was even so honest as to say that I would never INTEND for it to happen again - then again explaining that we have to find out WHY I went down that path in the first place. I have learned so much about myself and human nature by all the reading and discussing, that I feel much more informed about what safeguards to have in place. But I recognize that a strong and honest M is the first safeguard.

Owl, did you ever bring up the phone calls with your W? Just wondering.

Cards-

I guess I'd have to revise my stance in that if your husband is comfortable in knowing you and trusting that it won't happen again, AND...you are comfortable and confidant that you're both taking the needed steps to improve your M and make sure that you're both going to be happy together moving forward, I'd agree with you that bringing up details when your husband doesn't want/need them would serve no real purpose, but could be damaging. Just don't ever fall into the 'excuse mode' of not revealing something that your husband SHOULD know because you don't want to hurt him. It's very easy for someone to use that to justify hiding something, which is why I caution you about that.

No, I didn't mention the call thing to my wife. Basically, I'd come to the conclusion that it was just a minor thing, and I should drop it.

Yesterday my wife had a doctor's appt, to change her meds, and for a check up. During that, she talked with him about our situation (told him how well we're doing now), and discussed some issues we're dealing with with our daughter. This led into a discussion with me at home about how relationships work (part of the daughter issue has to do with relationships)...that also led into a mention of the EA. At one point, she looked at me and told me "I loved [OM]...it wasn't just an infatuation." (At the time of the EA, I'd told her that this is what it was).

She said this to re-inforce to me that she didn't make any of her choices then arbitrarily, or on a whim. That she'd risked our M for something that was very important to her. She didn't mean to hurt me by saying that, and hadn't really thought about how it would make me feel.

We've talked a bit more since, and she knows and can understand how I've felt hearing that. I told her that I guess I'd dealt with the whole thing by just believing that it couldn't have been more than an infatuation...

At any rate, I hate feeling like this...I know how good we're doing NOW...but it's hard to accept that she felt what she did for someone else.

Just venting I guess, ya'll. Sorry.

Cards, Yes I have had some withdrawal again. My emotions have been going back and forth all week. I do feel good about this final step, but it has definately been like ripping something final out of me. In fact this morning, I wished that I could talk to the OM. I won't and am not planning to, but it's been a difficult week emotionally for me. Little things hit me...for example I have been having to drive my youngest daugther to school the last few days and she likes to listen to country music and I only listen to Christian music. I can't take the "love" lyrics of the country music songs she has been listening to. It makes my thoughts turn to the OM instead of my H. I don't want to be this way, but that's just where my thoughts head to when I hear lyrics like that. The OM and I never even talked of country music and I know he didn't listen to it, so it's strange the lyrics make my thoughts go to him

My husband has been great in that he has been letting me talk out alot of things regarding the OM. This has really helped me when we have these conversations as I have told him some details of conversations with the OM that I have never told him before. He tries to help me see things for what they are/were. I had printed out the email (for my husband to read) the OM sent my husband asking for forgiveness and a few other things. When I read that email, it was hard for me because it just reminds me of how the OM writes and how he chooses his words when he writes. My husband's view is different in that he feels the OM knows what to write, but feels his walk with God does not reflect what he writes. I feel differently, but maybe that's still my "fog" for how I view the OM. I'm probably just rambling here...but...you can get an idea of what my husband and I have discussed this week.

Cards I'm just curious here...your husband only thinks the EA was nothing more that chatting, but there is more to it that he doesn't know?? If this is the case, I would seriously consider telling him the depth of it so he can understand. You don't have to specifically give him all the details, but only share what he would want to hear. I am not sure I agree with you Owl on this one. Doesn't Card's H need to know the depth of the EA so he can understand how it affected Cards and their M? If my husband thought it was only chatting with the OM, I know he would be viewing the EA much differently that he does.

Owl



What things SHOULD my H know? I have told him everything he has asked, and things he hasn't asked. How do I decide what he should know? Are you talking about divulging facts or feelings? I have not tried to "protect" him, because I truly believe in being honest. I have always been that way. If anything, I may be too honest sometimes. He does know that there was a sexual attraction from a couple conversations that he read, if that's what you are referring to.



I think it's very difficult to define and quantify love and infatuation, and all the feelings associated. We all internalize differently and it's hard to separate the intellect and the emotion. For me, I KNOW that I never loved OM in a truly deep sense, and I know intellectually that love has to grow out of being together, etc, etc, etc. BUT, you will NEVER convince me that I didn't feel in love with him. Your W recognizes that the feelings she had were REAL feelings and she wants you to know that and not minimize them (hmmm, who does THAT sound like?).



I do think the term "infatuation" has a sort of minimizing connotation, sort of like "puppy love". Maybe it is not important to put a label on it. You both know the impact that the EA had. You both know how strongly she felt about him at one point. You both know how much you love each other NOW.

The safety and trust of the M was broken by her feelings for someone else, even if only for a few weeks. I have to think my H is feeling the same as you, even if he can't express it. Try to think of Beavis' observation. They've been together 9000 days, there were some wrong decisions made for 90 days. Keep it in perspective and in the big picture. That's what I'm trying to do as well!

I do mean feelings, facts, etc... like what you mention below:

Does your husband know this?? It was exactly this kind of comment that made me understand how serious our situtation was...it is hard for me to imagine NOT taking what happened seriously in light of that kind of statement.

I am not sure that 'infatuation' is the right word to describe what I've thought my wife felt for her OM. I guess what I've meant is that she was in love with the 'picture' of the OM that she'd built up over the course of the IM's and calls. That she'd never known enough of him to truly love him, because all she'd seen were the parts of himself that he let her see, and that the limitations of talking online and on the phone do prevent you from knowing, ergo loving, someone as completely as you would someone you've been with in person for a long time.

And I agree with Beavis's observation...and that's exactly what I'm trying to focus on as well. We've had a great past (almost) a year...and THAT is what I need to keep in mind.