Win - I realize your situation is a different from Cards and mine being that your H encouraged you to talk to these men. I understand that you fell for this OM, but are you still talking to any other men at all?

To be honest, going over the OM is not high on my priority list. What I would like to dig into is what created the problems in our marriage and what can we do now to make things better. My wife tells me she was unhappy for years. OK, so what caused that? What did I do or not do that contributed, what did she do or not do? What are the obstacles right now? What's bugging her about me and the situation now? Are there things I need to back off on? Do more of? I need to tell her what I really need as well. It doesn't mean I expect her to comply, but she needs to know how I feel as much as I need to know what she feels.

It's really these more intimate aspects of OUR relationship that I have a need to talk about. For now the EA and the OM are off the table for me.

2B,
I'm not talking on the phone with anyone. Yes I do talk to some online, but just as friends, I've told them all I can't play around anymore. I did have a 2nd OM with the first OM, who my H was very angry with. But I haven't talked to him in months, at all. He was pressuring me to meet him, but I was never planning on it.

SO I've told my H that I'm not going to flirt online anymore, though i can say I miss it, it was fun. Actually H wouldn't have really stopped me talking to anyone if I hadn't fallin in love with my OM. He probly would have let things continue because he was having fun with it as well. He just didn't want me to fall in love.

-win

Win,

You said something that you really really need to consider carefully. You said
Yes, he did not listen, but I will strongly question what he was supposed to be "listening to." You said
What was he supposed to do with this lack of information? You cannot define what was missing so was he supposed to read your mind? This is part of the process that Owl is talking about. You are blaming your H for your A, when in fact you could NOT specify what was missing. You wanted "more" of what? THat is what he needed to hear, and will need to hear in the future.

Unless you can clearly and concisely tell your H what you need from him, it is unlikely he will be able to meet those needs. He is NOT a mindreader. The sad fact was/is that you told OM what was missing in the marriage. You told the OM what he needed to do to make you feel good. You did not give your H the same info.

I am not disputing the marriage needed help before your A. I am pointing out where you are blame shifting to your H while making the OM seem so great in your mind. The OM wasn't great and he was not a mindreader. You told the OM specifically what you needed from him.

If you want your marriage to function properly you need to be as honest with your H, and you need to discuss what you need in MC so that the MC can offer ways for you to put what you need in perspective and your H can understand what you need.

Give your H and your MC a chance. Focus on these things and determine them. You may know now that you told OM what you needed and he did it. But you must discuss this with your H and MC. OM just did what you told him. He was at no risk. He got what he wanted, and he had no responsibility for you or even seeing you again if he chose to leave. Your H is much more tightly tied to you: emotionally, legally, and morally.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Win - I hope you realized that there is such a danger in what you were doing. Opening up to men online and flirting with them may seem fun and you may have even thought it was good for your M, but having other men involved in your M is just not healthy for your M. You an your H need to develop that fun in your M with you 2 "alone". I don't mean to beat down on you, but just hoping you understand the danger in what you were doing.

Just in the last two days, I've read two more posts (one here, and one on LS) about marriages that have been hurt or ended due to online EA's. In both cases, the woman left her H to be with her OM. And again, one of those cases for sure was due to online gaming.

Think they should put on the sign on screen for ALL internet service providers..."Warning: By activating your connection, you may be putting your marriage at risk!".

Whaddya think? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just learning-
What I was saying is before the A I told my H that I wanted to spend more time together that I wanted to be closer. He said he was stressed out and needed time to take drugs (yes) and play video games until 3am every night. I TOLD him what I wanted. He'd spend one night watchin tv, want sex and then go back to his pc'ing. He'd also take trips w/his friends and LIE to me about how long they would be because he knew I'd get mad and he didnt want to deal with it. It's not as if I was continually vague about things. I just didn't want to go into every detail. We have many issues, he sees that now. Yes I do have a lot of blame and resentment for my H. It's true. Thats what we are working through. He's never been close to me emotionally, talking about feelings etc. I wasn't exactly able to verbalize HOW he should do that.

I never told OM what I needed, he just gave it and then I realized after it ended thats what I"ve been missing for so many years. Is the emotional connection. H is working on that now.

2B-Yes I now realize that this was not a good thing, we both do. We had done it in the past online, and hadnt had any trouble, only fun. But this time it really went to far obviously. H actually encouraged me to call these men, though he did worry about me falling in love and running away, but he was getting sex so he was happy. He was also happy that I was occupied so he wouldn't have to feel guilty about playing video games (his words not mine). He realizes I need emotional connection to want sex now. We know things have been pretty messed up due to both of us.

-win

You know, it's amazing to me the wide variety of things that cause dissatisfaction in a marriage. Win, your H sounds like he has some real problems with "connecting" with you, I can see an obvious problem there. Not that it's unfixable, but I can understand where you are coming from. In my case, my wife tells me she has no idea why she's been unhappy. she says " I have a husband who loves me, who's a great father, who does his share around the house, who supports me...." So my challenge is to figure out what I've been doing wrong. I do know that I have had some anger and frustration issues .I never took them out directly on my wife but I imagine it was unpleasant to be around. Best I can figure and from what she's told me so far that is a big part of it. She has also said she felt opressed in the marriage -another issue to deal with. I'm curious as to what other's have found that was "wrong" or missing in their marriages that made the A possible.

Might not be such a bad warning!

Win- glad you realized the harm it did. You and your H have much to work on and I'm glad you are trying your part with the NC. It's a good first step.

You all have a great weekend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sys-

In my case, it was her depression, combined with some issues around dealing with our kids for the most part. She felt like I was on 'their' side...felt like the kids and I were against her. Not defending her choice here, but that, combined with clinical depression, made for a bad frame of mind to suddenly find someone who 'appreciated' her.

Is he still using?

Pep

Here's an interesting thought for you all...at this point, I know of nine marriages (counting yours and mine, Sys) that were affected by online emotional affairs as a result of online gaming, like with Everquest, World of Warcraft, etc...

Out of all of those, ONE of them involved the husband as the WS. In all 8 other cases, it was the wife that was lured into an EA from contact with other people in a game setting. Out of all of those, in every case but mine and Sys, the WW left her BH and to the best of my knowledge, none of those other marriages have recovered. The one WH that I know of was a chronic online 'cyberer'...and as far as I know, he's still at it today with whoever he could get to join in with him. I know that he had an emotional attachment to at least one of the women he was 'with', but I don't believe that it was ever strong enough for him to leave his wife.

I'm curious if any of you might have some insight on why you think this might be the case? Is it because often women's needs are more centered around communication and emotional support, while men tend to seek more physical interaction (and I'm not just referring to SF)?

Pep-No he's not. This was one of my complaints thru our marriage, and I just gave up trying to get him to stop. I really should have put my foot down and demanded it because of course, it contributed to his depression and withdrawl from me. But I am a conflict avoider, or should I say I was. I don't plan on being one anymore!

Sys- I think like your wife, I didn't realize how unhappy I really was. I didn't know how to confront the issues or how to make it crystal clear to him what the problems were. And my H is very good at arguing, he does it for his job, so he always argues my points away. And I feel unheard, unvalidated. He realizes he cant try to "win" the argument now.

-win

Owl-

I know for me, since I talked to many different guys, the only one that I had a connection with was my OM because he's the only one who gave me the emotional connection AND the sexual connection. Many guys are only interested in the SF for their needs and not interested in having a relationship.

I also think women, being more verbal that online EA's can be more alluring and SEEM safe at first. HOwever I do know in my online 'world' there were many women who also were just seeking out SF from lots of other men be it online/phone or meeting them in person.

I also know of H's who sought out SF online because they weren't getting it in their marriages, but just wanted an 'online girl' to satisfy them and that they believed it was not cheating because there was no emotinal attachment. I know one H whose wife will never have sex w/him and lets him find it online. He had a gf for over a year online. He fell in love w/her but he wont leave his wife, he wants both of course. the GF finally left.

I've mentioned this site to those former "friends" of mine, that their S's need to work on meeting their needs.

I know that it's been an odd thing for me personally playing online games at times, as I've often received messages that were meant for someone else that were of an SF nature. And I know of two cases where the person that the messages were meant for were married...and not to the person who sent the messages. Unfortunately, in both of those cases, the person's spouse didn't play, so there was no way I could let them know what was going on.

I do think that women are more able to 'connect' via the conversations online than most men are...and I think that this is likely because the 'need for conversation' is more important to more women than men. Just my opinion though.

Hope everyone had a good weekend.

Had yet another uneventful, good weekend with the W and kids. I can't say that we're making giant strides or anything but the more things seem normal, the more they seem better. We still have a lot to do and say, but it seems like things are getting easier between us. Things almost seem so normal that I worry about getting complacent. We haven't had an MC session in 2 weeks ,so maybe that is adding to the feeling. We go on Friday, so I'm sure I'll feel more like we are working the situation more afer that.

We had our weekly date night on friday. Went to a nice sushi place where the sushi chef told us that his sushi would make us fall in love -what a guy. We're going back (until it works and beyond I think).

Friday the 13th actually was a really good day -good night out, and Owl, only you will appreciate this: We finally got a rare mob to spawn as we logged in (we've been waiting for weeks -he was either perma-camped or not up), won the ecounter and finished up a heritage quest -got great xp, a good chunk of status, a cool new weapon and I dinged a level- OK, so we're geeks.

Anyway, we did good this weekend and I hope things continue improving -had a few moments of introspection that got me bummed, a few moments of doubt, even a weird burst of paranoia -haven't had that in a while. But again, I know when they are going to occur -it's always when I'm tired and worn thin by the kids, so I don't pay too much attention to it. On the whole things are good.

Something that occured to me and I don't know if it's valid or not. My wife's mother had a troubled marriage and basically walked out on her father after sowing some of her wild oats, and her grandmother had men on the side her whole life -now my W has no respect for either of them for this behavior and she certainly is not proud of them for it
(disgusted by it acutually), but I have to wonder if somehow this is some kind of behaviour pattern repeating itself. I know I am a lot like my dad -in all the bad ways, no matter how I try. I need to fight some of those traits everyday. Could there be something within her that just impels or predisposes her to this sort of thing?

Could just be the impacts from the environments that you both were raised in. Even if she knows that what her mother and grandmother did were wrong and she doesn't approve of it, she may not have a good 'role model' to emulate...she never learned the 'right way' so to speak. Not that this is a defense, but you get the idea.

Weekend was alright here as well. Dealing with some rough times with the kids ourselves, so that combined with work had me worn out and frazzled...and that is always when the depression hits me the worst. My wife and I talked a little about that last nite...she understands, and realizes that it's got nothing to do with her/us.

Cards, 2BN, Win...hope you had a decent weekend as well.

Just popping in here for a second today. Not much time to get on here today! Had a good weekend as well. The marriage seminar was really good for the 2 of us. We learned alot of communication skills....so much to absorb for one day and we need to keep reviewing it! Had a really tough moment at the seminar when a scene was played from the movie "The Story of Us". I have never seen this movie but the scene brought me to tears that I could not control. If you haven't seen it...I'll try to fill in tomorrow.

Glad everyone is doing well.

Hi everyone:

It sounds like everyone is doing well. Last week was a very trying week - not problems with H & M, but work problems, church problems, & car problems! When I thought nothing else could happen I arrived at work this a.m. and my pc wouldn't boot up! I am up and running now, thankfully!

I have been keeping up on reading everyone's posts and I am so glad Win is back posting and getting support from a lot of people. These stresses in my life has kept my mind from being so self-absorbed about "my needs", but I have noticed that when I do have a minute my mind wanders back to some of those thoughts that had given me comfort before. Maybe just a reaction to stress (I hope).

Owl, I, too, have thought lots about why there are so many women getting "caught" in these EA's. It seems to be the women who have trouble pulling away and letting go. I really think it's the gender and goes back to the whole women/men mating game. The men traditionally are guided by their physical needs, the women by emotional needs. Even though the men may eventually get emotionally involved, it's common knowledge that many men have PA's and NEVER get emotionally involved. For women involved in A's, I would think that almost always they are emotionally involved, making the break-up far more devastating. Since an EA is not really physical, it would be interesting to look at just EA's and research if the withdrawal/attachment for the women and men is more balanced, or if the women STILL have much more difficulty. I would tend to think that even in EA's the women get more attached. Just my guesses, not based on any facts. Does that mean that women are more emotional and/or emotionally in touch in general? I think so.

Yeah, I don't give her family's behaviour much credit for what's happened. I should be looking at "us" more , not them. Just one of those things that you get around to thinking about once you've exhausted thinking about everything else.

But you could be right about not having good role models. Both of us are children of divorce and neither can lay claim to good role models. Our parents love us, but Lord, they provided poor examples I'm afraid. What I learned from my folks was that if you argued, you got divorced. So I avoided conflict like crazy all these years. That really didn't help. And when we did come into conflict, I didn't know how to handle it except to try to win at all costs. I guess it's better to learn it now than never, but I wish I knew then what I know now....