He said he didn't care if I talked to the OM.

Really? Just like that?? It didn't matter to him at all???

I was a little upset about it, but it's not like I'm surprised. I don't really worry about her talking to him, because I know he has been smart enough to give up on the relationship. If she wants to torture herself by still pursuing him when he is clearly gone then that's her own affair.

What I care vastly more about is the fact that she was happier when I was gone, and the fact that she feels she hasn't tried hard enough, but she doesn't know if she can. We had a long talk about the wall she has put up against me and it comes down to the fact that she doesn't trust me to change myself. I feel like I have made positive strides towards doing just that, and I continue to work on it and make progress. But if she's going to ignore that progress there's not much I can do to change her mind.

I also finally told her that I'm getting annoyed with her passive-aggressive ways and her lack of explaining how she feels to me. I feel in some ways she's already decided what she wants to do, but she's waiting for school to end to drop the bomb on me and the kids. She swears she's still working things out and thinking. I think we're both getting exhausted of the roller-coaster ride. I swing back and forth between hopelessness and feeling maybe things can be worked out. Every day is pretty much pure agony. I'm trying to get used to the fact of divorce but in some ways I still can't believe we're going to do this to each other and the kids.

This indifference from your H must be difficult to understand, I would think.

oops ... I read his response after I posted and hit "send".

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Here's the problem as I see it with your situation, Win and Bass.

Neither one of you has a PLAN.

Bass, you're making the changes that you feel need to be made to make things work out. How do you MEASURE those changes? What are you using as a comparison to show that you've improved? And are you POSITIVE you're making the RIGHT changes?


Win, you've not yet given the whole thing any kind of real chance. You've consistently laid all of this back on Bass. YOU have to make changes too...and not just in ending contact with OM and changing how you interact with guys online. The whole time I've been hearing you say that you don't know that Bass can change...I've not seen any indication that YOU have started to make any real changes in yourself either. The situation you two are in is BOTH OF YOUR RESPONSIBILITIES (I'm not talking about the A). So BOTH of you need to fix it.

Bluntly...get to an MC who knows how to help marriages recover from infidelity, and get someone who can help you BOTH get a plan.

The reason you're both miserable is because you've just wallowed around this whole time and made NO progress. Time to s4!t or get off the pot, as my dad would have said.

'Nuff said.

Everytime I try to explain how I feel, Bass gets defensive and tries to talk me out of my feelings. If you want to know how I feel you have to accept it as my feelings. This is where I see him not changing, in the communication. He wants a gold star for giving up his video games and one last coaster trip, but the issue for me is how I am treated and if I am heard. So I"m not going to confess my doubt or negative thoughts because they get used against me.

Then get the both of you to counseling where you BOTH CAN LEARN HOW TO EFFECTIVELY COMMUNICATE WITH EACH OTHER!!!

Winn & Bass - Owl makes some VERY good points. Both of you do need to take responsiblity and going to a MC will help you both with learning to communicate with each other. I don't know what else to say here...I've been reading today, but I see no progress with either of you in how you relate to each other.

I'll be out of here soon until next Tuesday. Talk to everyone when I return!

Win, could you provide specific examples of when I was doing that last night? I know that I was kind of slipping into that, and I made an effort during the conversation to stop doing that and just let you talk. It IS something I'm trying to work on...but how do you want me to respond if you're not interpreting me correctly, or if I feel you're not seeing the whole picture? Aren't I allowed to object if I think you've made a wrong assumption about how I feel? I don't want to trample on your feelings...but at the same time I feel like I have to stand up for myself if you're interpreting me in the wrong way. I have to admit I have trouble with this at times. I have to keep reminding myself not to argue and to just let you get things out, whether I like them or not.



Yes, I can't lie, I would like to see any progress I make noted. I would like to get feedback from you when I'm doing the things you don't like. It gets frustrating to hear AFTERWARDS that I've not listened to you or I've been defensive. I need to know WHEN I'm doing it and WHEN it's bothering you so I can correct the behaviour and give you the space you need. Unless you just want me to shut up and let you talk without EVER responding...if that's what you want then you have to let me now that.


Don't give up so easily. If you want to work through this stuff you need to be a little tougher. You know I'm not going to hit you or walk out on you if you speak your mind.

Owl...you are pretty spot on. We've made pretty much zero progress. Our MC seems to help us when we are in there but the communication goes to hell again when we are outside of the office.

My plan has basically been to cut out the things in my life that did not include Win, to lose weight so I'm more attractive to her, to try and curb my selfishness and controlling behavior, and to try and build intimacy back into our marriage.

I know that in terms of cutting out the bad things, I'm doing well...I've been off the computer almost completely at home, I'm not planning on taking any more vacations seperate from my family, I quit smoking pot three months ago and that has stuck, and I'm spending more time with her than before. In terms of the losing weight, I've lost 30+ pounds since D-Day and I've been working out 6x a week for the last three months without fail.

In terms of the selfishness and control, I think I've made strides but I have a long way to go. I'm trying to monitor everything I say to see if I'm making selfish demands or trying to work together with her and keep her interests in mind. I slip up sometimes but it's not going to change overnight. In terms of the intimacy, I'm trying to talk about how I feel, and I'm trying to let her into my life. However, she's very cold to most things from me, so I feel like I'm trying to be intimate with a brick wall at times. I wish I was getting more feedback in this area.

I also wonder if there are other things I need to work on that Win isn't telling me about. I've asked her to tell me, and I'm asking her again here. She hasn't mentioned anything else yet, other than the fact that I need to let her talk and not get defensive, which is a real struggle for me, as she sometimes make assumptions about my feelings that are wrong.

In terms of her, she has made a lot of effort to get off the computer when I am home. However, when I'm gone, she tends to have some drinks and the same behaviour starts again. It makes me wonder if she will ever be able to go back to being a wife as opposed to an internet party girl. I know she has opened a Pandora's Box of all these good-looking guys who would like to have sex with her, and she enjoys the attention. I fear she enjoys it way too much to quit, and our marriage has no hope if that stuff continues to go on. Our therapist made a big deal out of the "married too early, didn't have enough fun" angle, and I suppose there's a lot of truth to that. I just wish she had realized she wanted to party this hard before we had children and brought a house.

It sounds to me like you two need to go back to some BASIC communication skills too...

1. ONE person talks at a time. No matter WHAT is said, you do NOT interrupt the person who is talking. Allow them to finish, without any interruption, rude noises, disparaging facial comments, etc...

2. Once one person has finished talking, THEN the other person can respond. The first person is not entitled to interrupt, correct, or respond in any way while the second person is talking.

3. After an issue has been aired, and responded to once, it's DROPPED for the time being. NO further comments are allowed during that time of conversation.

4. NEVER make personal attacks of any kind. Talk about the problems, behaviours, etc...but NEVER attack the PERSON.

5. Schedule set time to discuss issues, and STICK TO THE TIME LIMITS. Do NOT continue conversation once time is past.

This is basic stuff you teach kids in Kindergarten. But...it's amazing how we forget stuff like this as adults.

I did tell you last night while you were doing it. When I was trying to explain the EN's that the OM was meeting and you said you have been meeting those EN's. If you were, then why did I need to find them somewhere else?

Yes I see you go to the gym, yes I see you stopped playing video games, unless you see me watching tv. And you had your so called last coaster trip. It's the inside that I need to see change. You can't always look to me to praise everything you do. You need to change for you, more than me.

That married too early stuff is just pure BS. I was married with four kids by the time I was 20. My wife had married and divorced once before I met her. NONE of our issues have anything to do with not having partied enough before we met. Sounds to me like excuses, not a real cause.

OK, yes, I recall that. I think what I meant to say is that I'm trying to meet those now. In terms of the past, you are totally right, I was ignoring a lot of your needs. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I think we get confused some times between talking about now and talking about the past.


Yes, the inside is the hard part to change. All I can say is that I'm working on it. I feel it is better, but certainly not perfect. It's going to take me awhile. I guess that's why I want feedback, just so I can tell how I'm doing. I DON'T want praise every five seconds...but I guess I would like a little encouragement now and then so I feel like things are being noticed. If that's too much to ask then I can learn to live without it, but it makes it harder to change.

Wait, who is saying WHO partied hard? I don't think we need to go there, you have PLENTY of skeletons in your closet. AND after we had the kids.

I know what it is exactly, it's called escaping from problems. IT's wrong and I'ved stopped it. You know how easy it is to want to escape, you've done it for most of the years of our marriage.

"I know she has opened a Pandora's Box of all these good-looking guys who would like to have sex with her"

YOU opened that box, even sending Nic over to me.

focus on solving today's issues NOT going over who did what in the past...

ALL the issues are today's issues. You can't igore the past if you want to move ahead into the future. It's just not possible.

No, but you can stop throwing the past in each other's faces...THAT is one of the things that need to happen here.

At some point, you have to call amnesty for past offenses and work on fixing the problems you've got NOW.

So...right now, at this time, what is Bass doing that he needs to change? (Not what does he need to change from what he was doing during/prior to the EA, what is he doing NOW that needs to change?)

So...right now, at this time, what is Win doing that she needs to change? (Not what does she need to change from what she was doing during/prior to the EA, what is she doing NOW that needs to change?)

Start with THESE issues. You'll probably find that the other issues will either disappear or become much easier to deal with once you've worked through these.

Develop a PLAN for working on your own issues. Let your spouse help you identify what you need to work on, and what measures you can use to see if you're improving or not. But...you are responsible for YOU.

solving today's issues

Win/Bass-

Hope you two have managed to solve some of TODAY's issues.


Cards- Hope all is going well for you my friend!

Sys- Same to you...btw, my lvl 50 ranger started on his epic last nite! LOL