Cards - A VERY accurate statement! However, it just gets me worked up when my H doesn't believe me. It DOES feel like it's an attack on my character as well. But, there is no point in arguing about it though because to my H, everything about the OM is disgusting to him. These conversations are far and few between these days, but it came up over the weekend and bothered me again.

I have a question, too. My H has been having dreams and nightmares about me and other men. I am sure this is about the EA and how his trust in me has been shaken. He tells me about the dreams and he laughs about them (we both laugh about them!). Anyone else experience this?

Cards - My H has not experienced any dreams like that. But funny you should mention dreams, because I had one last night involving another man. It was not the OM and not any man that I recognize, but I was intimate with this man in my dream. I told my H about the dream this morning and he got concerned that this is what's truly in my heart and that I'm faking it on the outside!

I'm not really sure why I would have such a dream and it is not a reflection of my heart as I tried to explain this to my H today!

Cards - have you had dreams like that?

Well, let me start off with our weekend. Picked her up at the airport on Saturday, flowers in hand. She was very glad to be home, and VERY touched by the posters and balloons and streamers the kids and I put up. So overall, it was a good homecoming, and she did get the chance to rest and relax when she got back.

We had a pretty good weekend overall. I know that I'm showing her too much affection at this point, so I'm working to back down some. It's not even an insecurity thing...I just feel that happy to have her home, and want to show her that. But...I think she's feeling a bit smothered, so time to back off some is my thought.

As far as why your H would feel that way about the OM, 2BN, all I can say is that I think you're right. BS's typically will refuse to believe that there is any good in the OP...because for most of us, we tend to feel like they've done something we'd never consider. That may be unrealistic, but it is how we tend to feel. In my case, the OM did do a few honorable things...but that doesn't mean I trust him, or believe that he's an entirely honorable guy. Let's be blunt, and look at it from the BS's viewpoint for a moment...this person KNEW that our wives were married, but still actively pursued them. Our marriages were nearly destroyed by the actions of that person. (Yes, our wives had their part too, but it's easier for us to forgive someone we love, as opposed to a complete stranger).

Sys-
Sounds AWESOME friend!! It sounds a LOT like the same thing that happened with me. There is one specific day I can remember where she clearly told me that she wanted US...and it will be one of the best days of my life for a LONG time to come. I can well imagine you are feeling the same way now, my friend! I TOLD YOU SO!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Owl - Glad to hear that your weekend went great with your W's return! It's good you recognize when you need to cut back, but I'm sure she enjoyed the welcome home and all that you did!

I understand your point about the OM and how the BS feels, but...let me ask you...if your W told you that her OM knew someone that lived in your town, would you think it was a lie or would you tell your W that is was a lie??? I just don't get it. I can understand the BS feeling that the OM gave certain lines and such, but this didn't make sense to me.

Well, I'm not the same person as your H, so I'm not sure what his reasoning was behind his statement. Personally, I don't believe that EVERYTHING OM told my wife was a lie. Nor do I even feel that everything he told me was a lie either.

My guess is that your H feels that OM would have said or done ANYTHING to get what he wanted...you. And that may be what he's really trying to say.

I know how the dream thing is too...I've had a few odd dreams about OM and my wife a few times too. It's been a while tho, thank God.

I THINK that your H may be talking to you about the whole OM thing to keep showing himself that you ARE willing to talk about it now. Remember, the deception was the real damage maker for most of us...and it's important for us to feel like we are getting the honest responses back from our wives after something like this. Just my guess tho.

Owl - thanks for your take on this. I guess I shouldn't be worried about trying to "prove" the OM to my H. I do however, take it as an attack on me personally at times and that's where I get defensive as well. This piece of information the OM gave me happened LONG before the EA began and I guess that's why it bothers me that my H doesn't believe it. I know my H wants to believe the OM and everything about him is scum and I can understand that.

Hard to say, I think it was a long time coming and a gradual thing. Ever sine D-Day, I've been showing her how much I love her in words and deeds. I've been sure to be as considerate of her as I can, I've worked hard at being a great Dad and probably most importantly, I made major changes in the behaviors that pushed her away in the first place.

Oddly enough, if I had to put a time on when I saw things turning, and this seems really silly, it was when I made t-shirts showing our EQ charcters together. I don't know if that was it, but it really thrilled her and things began to improve greatly after that. Now if that was it, I don't know what to tell you b/c it's a pretty unique thing to us.

All in all, I htink time and NC were vital but so was my effort.

Want to hear something spooky? I had dreams about my W leaving me for the OM BEFORE D-day! My subconcious must have known before I did! I had the same dream a few times after ,but not for a longtime. I have to tell you though, those were not dreams, they were nightmares -they would wake me up and I couldn't sleep after them. So my reaction was quite different. I'm guessing your H is more secure than I.

Well, about a week before d-day I had a REALLY freaky dream. I didn't know what all it meant, but it was so wild that I woke up and wrote it down. I'd even talked with my sister about it the next day. What's really (funny) about it is that it scared the hell out of my wife...because SHE knew what it meant!! When we talked about it later, it was the first time they'd seriously given thought to 'getting caught' during the whole thing.

Sys, just wanted to say congrats on the progress. I have to admit, I'm a little jealous of everyone in this thread. Seems like everyone is making progress towards marital recovery. I'm happy for you all, but sad for Win and I. It's good to see people stick with each other and make strides on repairing these important relationships.

I really am glad that things seem to be getting better for you Sys. Think about where you're at now, and compare that to how things were going for you when you and I first started helping each other! Wow!

Bass, I do hope things turn around for you at some point, but I'm out of suggestions for the two of you. Your best hope right now my friend is prayer.

Owl-

You crack me up - smothering your W AND realizing it. I am really glad the homecoming party was a success and she had a good break. Now you can get back to "normal" life.

Bass-

Keep the faith.

Thanks for trying to help, Owl. Not much help anyone can provide for us at this point. I was thinking about this this weekend. It took a lot of courage for Win to stand up and say she was tired of being controlled by me in our relationship, and that she was tired of faking her love when she wasn't feeling it. I think it's now a point of pride thing for her...basically, if she gives even an inch towards coming back into the relationship, then she thinks she is betraying the courage she had to work up to demand more out of her life. She is deathly afraid of taking me back into her heart and then having things go back to the way they were before. Looking at it from her point of view, I can see where that would be terrifying, given how much effort it took her to stir up these issues in the first place.

What she fails to see is that I am ready and willing to change, and to give over the control in favor of having an intimate relationship where we are partners. She flat out refuses to believe that I could change and become that person. I've tried to convince her we have to at least TRY but she has her pride involved, and her fear that she might not be able to stand up for herself again.

MC has made us both realize we each have our flaws...she's a conflict-avoider and I'm a selfish person who doesn't know how to have an intimate connection. Those flaws didn't harm us too much in the past, but she has become more assertive and I seriously lost my way for years in terms of selfish behaviour. It's frustrating, I think I see the way we could fix things, but it's impossible to re-establish intimacy if one party has ruled it out for good.

Bass-



Maybe......but I would tend to think it's more about the lack of intimate connection. I obviously don't know all the ins and outs of your R, but it sounded to me that there was emptiness. This is also what I experienced at home. Both of our faults from way back, but there was hurt and resentment on my part when I perceived my H not being there emotionally for me. I was hurt by that then I put up a wall, and now I am struggling to break down the wall and try to open myself up again. It's hard to do that if the hurt was deep. I have to find the courage to feel safe and trust him again with the emotional intimacy that I didn't have for so long. We went along and not even realizing it, I buried that need. Then the EA, out of the blue, sucks me in. Intimacy and emotional needs that had been squelched for a long time surfaced in a big way just by someone giving me the right kind of attention.

Sometimes I'm not sure what is worse, having been living without those needs being met and not realizing it, or now having experienced the needs being met and not knowing how to duplicate them in my M. It's hard to explain.

I think for us it will take both of us working on it together. I have to work hard to allow the connection to even happen. I still feel myself fighting it for some reason. Maybe Win is fighting it too. Maybe we are having trouble believing we won't be hurt again. Sys and Owl are good examples of working hard to meet the EN's, but maybe in our cases where there is old hurt and resentment we have to work harder. I know that I have to work hard and make the effort to be open. If this sounds like a similar situation for Win, it will be some time before she will be able to do that. She will have to have complete NC for a while before she can even begin to think of working on the M.

Bass, I don't know if this helps at all, but it seemed like Win was in a similar place as me. Her hurt may be deeper and harder to repair, I don't know. Her EA was much longer, so you have to expect that she will be hurting for a while. Just hang in there and work on yourself. You need to do that anyway, for your own good.

It will have to be a combined effort on BOTH of your parts in order to pull together and it will take TIME - maybe lots of time.

Yes, cards you are right on. Especially about finding the En's met and then having them taken away again. But it's more than just that for me. But you are exactly right about the wall.

Great post, Cards. You put your finger on a lot of the things Win has been saying. I really feel for her, because I see the pain she is in over the loss of having these needs met by OM.

What hurts ME is that there's nothing I can do to get in her heart and around the "wall". She has to make an effort to let me in and that's not forthcoming any time soon. With us, we are dealing with a long period where I was neglecting the marriage, and there's tons of resentment there...maybe too much to ever get past. I think that's the "more than just that for me" Win referenced above.

I am setting up more IC for myself, and Win and I will be giving things 30 days before deciding anything. I believe she is in NC now. What's frustrating is that it seems to me she's already made the decision to emotionally disengage and leave, but I know that NC just started a week or so ago and I believe she's still in withdrawal (she denies it). She says she's over OM but always says "don't mention him" when I bring him up now. I'm not giving up hope yet but I have to admit things seem very bleak right now.

Lastly, Cards, I wanted to compliment you on all the progress you have made. You are doing the right things and I know that you will be rewarded with a renewed relationship down the road. Keep at it!

Hi everyone -

Cards you had some great insight there about past hurts. I think you have done so well and progress is happening in your M, as I see it from an outsider. Time seems to be what is needed on all of our M's to help them heal and progress. Some of our M's may require more time than others and it's important for all of us here not to "compare" our M's when ours hasn't healed as fast as the others. The important thing is that we are actively working on our M's and that we WILL see the results of that eventually.

I have to admit to you all that I slipped a bit these last few days. NO I have not made contact with the OM, but I did change my password back on that email account for a few days. I don't know what I was hoping for except to see if maybe the OM still would check it?? I don't think he checked it. I HAVE changed the passward back and I FEEL much better doing so and AM VERY THANKFUL that nothing happened beyond what I did!

I DID feel that I FAILED by doing this! BUT I can be happy that I did not make contact. I had thought about why I did this?? And...I think this is still stemming from all my thoughts of the OM from over vacation.

Hope everyone is doing well today!

2BN-

What were you hoping to see when you changed your password?? You really need to watch these impulses...it's those kinds of things that get you into trouble to begin with!

I'm glad you changed it back...you need to realize that OM is out of your life now...forever. He's in the past, as much as your first crush is. Start focusing on what you've got in your life NOW.

Just my thoughts.

Thanks, 2BN. Yes, impossible to compare timelines for recovering from these things. We all have different R's, different pasts, different viewpoints. All we can do is encourage each other and share things that have helped in our own situation.

I'm glad you didn't make contact. I DO understand,however, that urge to do that. What is it that makes us want to do those things? Not really wanting contact, but rather just wanting to know how they are? I don't understand that. Is it simply not wanting to let it completely go? Not wanting to feel the emptiness of those needs not being met? Not wanting the memory to fade? Any ideas?