2B:

IMHO, it sounds like counseling IS needed for him, resentment, not talking about the A, not meeting EN. These issues need to be address before healing can begin.
Some men will have a tendency to hold in thier emotions, and try and just get over it, but it is not healthy for him, not healthy for you, and certainly does not address seroius isssues in your marriage that probably helped led to the A in the first place...

beavis

"Owl" wrote:

...I was (and still am) convinced that the vast majority of it was a fantasy, that it would have failed within months of becoming physical, and that she would have found herself even more guilt ridden and lonely and in pain than she was before. And then she would have found herself without the one person who really does love her for her, in reality and not fantasy...me.

I agree. You are wise "Owl"

I do give a hoot what you post...

beavis

beavis, yes, my husband does hold in emotions, but he also let out alot of emotions after the first "A" was exposed. I honestly think that all of this is just really wearing on him for having to deal with it for so long. He really is a great guy and very loyal and committed to me. But, it will be a process for him to learn to meet my EN's that he has never really met before. Maybe I just shouldn't be expecting so much right now? But after reading what you wrote that you started to romance your wife...well that is just what I wish my husband would do, but he just doesn't seem to know how.

2B-
I hope that suggestion about talking to your husband about the future of your marriage helps. Talk with him about the romance thing too...I think that the 'romance' is a large part of the addiction of the affair. After all, the OM 'wooed' you, which is something that your husband hasn't likely done in a long time. We all need that at times, and at the same time, you might consider romancing HIM first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Beavis-
I don't know what to say friend. I still don't feel like a 'wise owl'. I'm still thinking about a name change, but don't know how to do it so that I don't have to change email accounts to support the site. Any suggestions on how to do that would be appreciated.

Hope everyone is doing well!

This is a big issue for us. Romancing. He just doesn't know how to!!! I've told him what I'd like, but then it all comes back to the feelings of the "A" and the resentment and that it's hard for him to "romance" me when he has these "feelings". When we were in MC, the MC gave him ideas, but we didn't get too far. And as far as me romancing my husband. Yes I have done that/ tried it. I really would like it to be reciprocated. Sorry if it sounds like I'm whining, but this is a big issue for us.

2B-
Well, it doesn't sound like it's whining to me. If it's a big issue, it's a big issue. That's about all there is to it.

Two things. You need to remind him how big of an issue this is for you. Yes, he's trying to deal with the A emotionally. But, this is the kind of thing that can help the two of you re-connect...and that's vital to recovery. You need to let him know where this stands on the priority list for you.

You commented that you told him what you like...but that it then raises the whole 'A' again...for who, you or him? Then don't tell him what the OM did that you liked....that would bust me down in the dumps too! Instead, try to think of NEW things that you would like...and go look for a book called "The RoMANtic's guide"...it's got a ton of cute little things that a man can do for his wife.

One other thing...realize that he may still feel like he's competing with the OM in all of this. It's really painful to feel like you're still fighting for your wife's love and attention after going through something like this...so instead of relating it in any way back to the A, try to find a way to make it fun and exciting...and NEW!!

The bottom line really is communication. It sounds like you both need to find ways to communicate better with each other. I'm not sure what to suggest if you're not still in MC. Maybe some of the other board members might have some suggestions??

Karegh,
Let me clarify how I told him what I like. For starters, I am not comparing him with the OM when I talk to him. He himself may be thinking that I am though. Here is an example of a scenerio that happened. A month or so ago we went to the Christian bookstore and bought several books together, one called "Romancing Your Wife". I asked him if we should buy it and he said yes. Well, it took him awhile to get to it and I asked him to maybe read a bit of it (I had already read some of it). He read the first chapter and he honestly felt that he has been a failure as a husband to me.

There were alot of great tips and ideas in this book and yet he comes away with feeling like a failure in how he has been to me and not feeling like he could live up to what he read.

We have communicated alot about this and he has done some things, but they just don't seem to happen much.

2B-

Sounds to me like your husband is doing a little reverse-guilt tripping. He's using the excuse that "I failed in the past, so how can I do better now"...which really is a crock of BS when you think about it. Fine, he feels like he's failed in the past...don't we all? That does NOT have to impact the future.

Tell him that you don't care about the past. It's done. What he can do NOW is to fix things going forward. Tell him that you've made mistakes in the past too, but you're going to use those to improve your marriage now, and not let how you've failed in the past hold you back from making a better tomorrow.

It sounds to me like he really needs to get some kind of counseling for himself. Personally, if I were his friend, I'd tell him to knock off the pity-party and start fixing things NOW.

Sorry if I've overstepped here. Just my thoughts.

Karegh,
I think he felt like he has been a failure, but...I think it's very hard for him to understand or know how to "romance" me. It's just not a natural thing for him. This is why I got the book, but now it has been put away for a good while.

We both want to move forward, but also in that, I really need him to step up and make some changes that I feel are missing from our marriage.

Funny thing is I spent a good bit of the time talking to the 2nd OM about how my husband doesn't know how to romance me! He gave me all sorts of ideas when he was still in the "helping my marriage" mode. I am sure that is what attracted me to this OM as he knew how to romance...but...well...we messed up there!

Beavis & Karegh

You both are wonderfully dedicated to your W & M, but I am wondering if you 2 are just simply exceptional H’s! Please take that as a compliment. You both seem so totally in love with your W’s and I am wondering if those are new, resurrected feelings of love or simply the love that you always have had for your W. Did you ever doubt that you loved your W?

1) Was your marriage basically happy until this one “freak” accident?

Not trying to get personal, just wondering where your M was before the A happened. In our case, I think we both knew that we had neglected our M for a long time. Busy with child rearing, etc, thinking we would eventually get back to putting time into our M. Part of me fears that we’ve waited too long to bring that love back.

2) Did you ever consider NOT salvaging the M?

My H says he loves me, but is apprehensive about working on the M because he doesn’t know that I love him. I do love him, but don’t “feel” love towards him right now (partly due to withdrawal from EA & partly due to EN’s not being met for so long). I think we both realize that we will have to work to find the “love” again.

I would love my M to be where you all have gotten, but I think both me & my H are having our doubts about being able to restore the love that got pushed aside a long time ago. I only am asking these questions as an attempt to have hope that even a M that has been neglected for a while can be restored.

On a positive note, my H & I had a good conversation last night. He is truly having trouble with his feelings about what happened. He has trouble expressing them to me & trouble even knowing what they are. Nevertheless, we were able at least to talk about where we want to go. We both know that we don’t want to go back to what it was before my EA. He is definitely feeling that he has failed me to some degree and he’s exploring what his EN’s are.

Karegh, FYI, I picked up 2 of the books you recommended, 5 Lang of Love & 20 Simple Things, and are just getting into them. The both look to be very helpful. Thanks!

Cards-
Let me preface this with this...NO...I am NOT someone who's exceptional. I try to be a thoughtful, loving, caring man. I try very much to understand all sides in a situation. But none of that is not anything that anyone can and does on a daily basis. I can say that I never doubted that I love my wife...though, at the midst of our 'crisis', I did wonder if I actually knew her like I thought I had. Turns out I did...I just didn't understand the alien who'd temporarily taken her over. LOL

1.Yes, our marriage was basically happy...up until about the last year or so prior to her EA. It took a major turn for the worse at that time, when she lost her job, and instead of getting a new job or resuming the role of house-mom, she got addicted to huge amounts of online gaming. Add to that untreated depression, and some serious disagreemant in how we should deal with the kids, and you have the recipe for disaster. Prior to that, we had 15+ years of fun. A family known for impromptu water fights (had one this past Sunday as a matter of fact...was a GREAT reminder of past times!), tons of hugs and physical affection, and a place where all the neighborhood rugrats hang out to have fun and be with a 'real fun family'. My wife and I have always been very loving towards each other, and used to drive people nuts with how 'in love' we stayed.

2. Yes. After three HARSH weeks of withdrawl, I'd finally started to reach my end. I had taken as much abuse as I could, and still be Plan Aing her (remember, I didn't know what plan A was then...just doing what 'felt right'). She had finally made one deliberately hurtful and degrading comment too many to me on the phone, and I'd had enough. I was at work at the time. I broke down, and started looking at my company's HR assistance site for legal advice/aid. That day, I contacted a lawyer and discussed the steps needed to get a divorce in our state. I wrote down all the info I got, and took it home that nite. She once again went off on me when I got home, and I took her downstairs to 'my room' so that the kids wouldn't listen in on our conversation, and gave her all that info. I even told her that my company would assist in financing one lawyer...that lawyer could handle both sides of the divorce, but could only 'represent' one of us...so I told her to file, so that he represented her. I told her that I still loved her, but that apparently I'd misunderstood just how little she still felt for me, and how ready she was to be out of the marriage. We'd talked about seperating up to that point, and she'd priced that day what an apartment would run her, but it would only come with a year lease. I told her that I wasn't willing to put our marriage on hold for an entire year while she 'found herself', and that if THAT was what she wanted, then we should just file for a divorce instead of seperating. We sat there both stunned for a bit...a few tears, and then we had to deal with the kids. But, interestingly enough, I think that was also a wake up call for her too, because it made her finally see that she stood to LOSE me...and she'd never truly given that real thought up to that point. It was later that evening that she came to me, and made her choice to re-build our marriage.

Let me share with you my perspective, Cards. I truly think that you CAN rebuild a marriage after an A, even if it had been neglected a while. If you two ever truly loved each other (and I think it very likely, given how things have gone for you post A), then it stands a good chance. The problem is that it's going to take WORK. It's not always going to be easy, and tough times are still gonna happen sometimes. My wife and I had a major blowup last nite...it left her crying and me shell-shocked, because it sounded EXACTLY like the kind of fights we had at this time last year. But, the difference this time was that we discussed it afterwards, we both apologized for our part in it (and meant it), and we both are looking to change the things that lead up to it.

I made a comment on the LS website once that I've had quoted back at me a couple of times there..."I don't want things to go back to normal (what they were pre-affair)...because that's what lead us to what happened. I want things to be BETTER!".

Take a look at that 20 simple rules...and setup some time right before bed for you and your husband to read a chapter each nite. Take turns on who reads, and talk about it HONESTLY and OPENLY when you're done reading. And if you hit a chapter that's too tough emotionally...take the time before you both go to work the next morning to talk about it then. That is what my wife and I did...and I think it made a HUGE difference for us.

Hang in there friend. Realize that you're still VERY soon after D-day, and you both are still working through the emotions of that. Remember what I said about the honesty factor though too...consider when you're REALLY going to let go of the OM by getting rid of the emails and pics and such.

Karegh,
Thanks for the encouragement. Like you, I KNOW we don't want the M to be what it was prior to the EA. We need to go back quite some time to find when we were truly happy together. But, alas, there was a time.

My biggest hurdle right now seems to be that I feel stuck in my progress. I've worked through the worst w/d symptoms, the worst days of depression, the hardest fights of NC. But, I can't seem to make the jump from OM to H. I know the EA is OVER, but I still can't shut it out completely. That's why I keep wanting & hoping that H will start meeting the EN's - I can't seem to break free on my own. If there is something else I can do to push myself forward I would love to know what it is. I know we've talked about the emails, etc before, and I don't feel that is an issue since I don't go over them & reread them. I know you can argue that destroying them (like GS) would be cleansing, but my H & I are not where they are yet. Maybe it's just a question of time.

One thing we discovered last night in our discussion is that the EN's seem work together. When trying to define which EN's were being met by OM, it's nearly impossible to translate to things that my H can do. Some of the needs I do not feel receptive to receiving from my H quite yet. So how can he fill my needs if I won't even let him? It's very confusing.

cards wrote:


Beavis & Karegh

You both are wonderfully dedicated to your W & M, but I am wondering if you 2 are just simply exceptional H’s! Please take that as a compliment. You both seem so totally in love with your W’s and I am wondering if those are new, resurrected feelings of love or simply the love that you always have had for your W. Did you ever doubt that you loved your W?

Cards, thanks for the compliment, only GS can answer that one. But if I was an exceptional husband, would the A had happened in the first place? So like (Owl), no I am not an exceptional husband.

Your other question is easy, yes, I have always been deeply in love with my W. But for awhile, with kids, work, different roles, new house, our lives soon became in parallel, and EN's werent being met, esp for her. I am still deeply in love with her, I truly believe more so now, because I have a more intimate understanding of her and her needs now, post-A?

I never doubted that I loved my wife, even in the abyss of pain, suffering and broken heartedness I felt after D-day.

beavis

Well, the fact that you don't seem to be able to 'jump from the OM to your husband' isn't one I'd panic over, but I do find it interesting. There have been a few FWW's that have posted on this site that noted that they were unable to immediately connect to their husband after the 'fog' lifted, but it did happen eventually. So I wouldn't call it quits just yet...

While I don't think it's fair, I've seen the pattern of not letting your H meet your needs before too. It suggests to me that you may not be completely through withdrawl yet, friend. AND...it sounds like you've still got some resentment towards your H about not meeting your needs in the past (and leading to the A). But looking back, I think that there were some lingering issues like that in my case as well. So again, don't take these things as signs that it's over between you.

I seriously think that you need to take some time. It takes months and years to recover a marriage from an affair...you've not been that long in the scheme of things. Don't panic that things aren't perfect yet...

Don't sell yourself short either friend. You're stronger than you realize. Just pace yourself, and do all the right things right now...even if they don't feel totally right. Don't be afraid to ask your husband to meet your EN's, and don't be afraid to 'let him back into your heart', either. My wife wasn't sure that she still wanted to stay with me, even after she knew that the R with the OM was over. It took her time to build up trust in ME...as silly as that sounds. It sounds like you might need the same...but at the same time, you need to take the 'risk' of giving him the chance whenever possible too.

Realize that you're BOTH on new ground right now...neither one of you is completely sure how to deal with each other sometimes. Your relationship now has changed from what it was, and it's still re-forming. That makes both of you unsure about where things stand. Give yourselves sometime to let things settle down.

Not sure if I'm making much sense. I hope so tho.

Just some thoughts... see if any stick to you ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

[color:"blue"]This distance which you have created between your husband and yourself has a purpose. All repeated behaviors are purposeful. If you can, think of what purpose is being served (for you) by this emotional distance.

Does this distance protect you in some way?

Does this distance give you space to think?

Does this distance make you self-justify your decision to have the affair in the first place?

Are you frightened of allowing yourself to fall in love and be dependant on your H?

Do you fear rejection if you get too close?

Do you feel you are worthy/not worthy of your H's emotional attention?

Try and figure out the purpose being served by this distance.

Loving your husband fully involves taking a risk ... a leap of faith.

But what is the risk if you never take that leap?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />[/color]

cards wrote:


2) Did you ever consider NOT salvaging the M?


Cards, in the immediate weeks following D-day, I thought she was checking out of the marriage for good. My IC told me as did my friends, she wasnt good for me, their are plenty of people who would want you for a husband. I came to the sad realization that seperation was coming down the road. In fact, it appears there was a list being generated of avaiiable suitors for me... that really sickened me. Sure, its nice to be appreciated and thought of that way, but I wanted no one else to be with in the world, but my wife. That was the person I committed to, and the person I was truly in love with. It really hurts to write this, because I couldnt think of being with someone else. this A has tought ME many lessons too, and awakened and focused in me what is truly important in my life. My W and M.

sobbing beavis

Well said, Beavis. I just can't imagine seeking out someone else at this time in my life, when all I want is the woman I decided years ago I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I wish I had treated her better and paid more attention to her when I had her, because now that I am losing her I see how stupid I was being. Every marriage certificate issued should come with a link to this board, because no one trains you how to make love last a lifetime. People assume they can "make it up as they go along", but IMO very few men and women understand each other enough to make love last. And it's very easy to forget what's MOST IMPORTANT when you're trying to deal with everything else life throws at you.

Hi Cards,


Yes you can break free if you want to. No, you can't shut out the EA completely, but you can replace the EA thoughts and feelings with a reconnection to your H. The more effort you put into your M, the more comes back out. IMO, try not to wait for things to happen, wait for your H to meet your need, etc. Do, do, do. KWIM? Try and do the things your H and you always found fun and exciting before the A..the more you fill up his love bank, the more he is going to respond. And...give it some time.

From what you've said, I think your H is hurting. Try and put aside your feelings for awhile and put some effort in expressing love for him. You've been married a long time, so I know it's inside you waiting to come out. I bet he responds the way you are hoping.

I was very lucky that I had a H like Beavis. He is an exceptional H in my humble opinion. He didn't withdraw after the A, didn't back down even a little bit in expressing love for me. It really helped me come back into the M. The A overshadowed my feelings for him, but they have come back through love and attention from both sides of our fence. This last month especially has been a wonderful re-awakening for me.

So, Beavis, don't be sad. You did good (better than I deserved). You saved our M and I am sooooo grateful. Can't imagine life without you sweetheart.

Now....who started this list of suitors and just where is it? The list gets burned!! haha
GS

I feel the same way Bassistist - this was a great thought. I just thought good M's just happen, without really thinking or doing anything special.

I wish the A had never happened. But...the upshot is that I have learned A LOT about what M is to me and how really special it is if you put effort into it.

Bassistist, I'm sorry your M isn't doing so hot now. What do you think is your obstacle to connecting right now?
GS

bass...

"I just can't imagine seeking out someone else at this time in my life, when all I want is the woman I decided years ago I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I wish I had treated her better and paid more attention to her when I had her, because now that I am losing her I see how stupid I was being."

I am sorry friend, it sounds like you are experiencing my nightmare. That is, being so deeply in love and yet watching her slip away, knowing that in hindsight, things could mavbe been done to prevent it. I have complete empathy for you and hope that things DO works out for you and you rise from the ashes a better person, stronger and much more wiser from it..

beavis