I'm not sure how this works, its my first time but I need to talk to someone about this. My wife has told me she has feeling for someone at work. I even know him. we are friends but not close. They have worked together your about 6 years. The middle of March this year I knew she was acting different and I got her pnone records and found out they were talking alot. I confronted both of them about. Now on the weekends she is OK but after work she is different. She says they never slept together. I believe her becuase we are always together expect at work. But we work right across the street from one another. We have 2 kids. 5 year old is ours, 12 year old from her previous marriage. We\ve been together for 10 years, marriage for 6. He is marriage with 1 kid and another one on the way. He was the first to tell my wife he wants her, now my wife says her feeling have gone to him. Her heart is there as she puts its. She told me wants to see if we can go on, but she will not tell me she will stop talking to him at work. She says she has tried but can't stop. I think he is pressuring her to leave me. I told them I'm not going anywhere, I'll do whatever it takes to fix this. I haven't told his wife about this becuase I'm scared it might hurt the baby. I think they want me to blow up and leave or tell his wife. that would make it easier for them. She says I'm pushing her further away when i pressure her. i do good for a week or so but then i have to bring it up again. They have only had these feelings for abot six weeks. iknow for sure. do i stop pushing? what can i do to help her end this. she made a appointment for counseling but canceled. she says she is not ready. she'll go if she gets over him. i told her to talk to anyone. her sister. but she hasn't. What can i do? its like they are in a fantasy world. she knows what at stake. her first divorce was bad for everyone. i told her right i can let her talk to him at work but nothing more.she says ok but i think she sees him for 15 minutes before work sometimes. sge doesn't want to ride to work with me. she says she is not seeing him anywhere else. any suggestions? or similar cases. thank you for listening.

Dwaiting-

Seriously my friend, I'd recommend that you start your own thread here on MB...you'll likely get a LOT more response that way.

Very sorry to hear about your situation. It's rough, I know...been through something similar myself. My suggestion would be to read not just the forum section, but read through all of Steve Harley's info on infidelity. It should provide you with a lot of insight.

My thought on your situation is this. She's not going to change right now, because she's got everything just the way she wants it...she's got him and you both. So take a look at what is called Plan A...read through it, and start implementing what you can of it. Basically, it means that you should do everything you can to improve YOURSELF so that you're meeting your wife's needs as best as you can. At the same time, YOU SHOULD BE WORKING TO END THE A. The best way to do this is to EXPOSE it...to everyone possible. Her family, your family, all of your joint friends...the OM's family as well, if possible. She hasn't talked to her sister about this, because she KNOWS what she's doing is wrong, and she doesn't want to consider hearing that from anyone...especially from somoene she cares for.

You need to express to your wife as clearly, and as calmly as possible that what she is doing is hurting you VERY much, and it's destroying your marriage. Again, READ this whole site as best as you can...

Get counseling for yourself if nothing else. This is NOT something that you want to try to handle on your own...it's just too big.

And again, look at starting your own thread here on the forums...it will get you a lot more response.

Owl, thanks for your input. How do i find plan A or where is it? thanks alot. I want to make the A public, but what if she blames me for doing it? Iknow its probably for the best but i'm just a little scared to do it.

How do i start my own thread? thanks

Sys-



Everything you describe about your W are all things I said or thought at one time or another. At the time of d-day (and before) no matter how much the rational part of my brain was telling me that the whole things was so illogical, I couldn't mentally or physically pull away from it. I'm sure it sounds crazy, but unless you've experienced it I really don't think you can understand it. I would've NEVER believed it in 100 years!

It sounds to me like your W experienced much the same as the rest of us. Both my H & I knew there were marital problems, this just brought them to the forefront where we could no longer ignore them.

Owl, I knew you would jump on the idea and I'm glad you did! The reason I posed the question about continuing to write about the details of the EA was because after a couple of those last writings, I did feel pulled back in. Going over those details took me back - and although it partly felt soothing (in a way), it also was painful to rethink about those days around d-day. It was a tumultuous time. I was unsure if revisiting all of that was constructive or not. BUT...........

2BN-



This is the hard part for me too, 2BN. I have felt that as my head became clearer I have been able to re-analyze the events in order to better understand myself. I have
WANTED to look back and understand it all. So, I do agree that looking back with a clear mind helps to put it in perspective and move forward. Maybe we have to find the happy medium.

The point of no return? Hhmmm. I remember asking OM what he would think if we stopped "talking" (I believe I was becoming attached at that point). When he said that he had feelings for me, that was one point of no return. It just escalated from there, and the talks became more intimate.

Our 19th anniversary is coming up as well, 2BN, June 7th. Before you all brought this up I hadn't even thought about it. Sys, your plans sound great for Mother's Day - you are making a supreme effort to fill your W's EN's!

Owl, I see that you have a trigger date coming up next week. Although my H doesn't remember any dates, I am sad that what started as seemingly innocent relationships on the parts of me, your W, and others could have effects on our spouses for a whole year (or longer).

Sys-



We seem to be in similar places with regard to where we are in sorting out this mess. My H would probably say that he thought I was over everything fairly quickly. But if he really thinks about the things I said in the subsequent weeks following d-day, he would notice that early on it was all about convincing him (and myself) that the EA was no big deal. The talk was about that, and the fact of the problems in the M. At the point that I really ACCEPTED that the EA was over, it was then that I was able to realize that we are left with this broken M. I could then talk about and feel badly about hurting my H, and really mean it. Not that I never thought about OM again, but the fog had begun to lift, I realized the fantasy was over, and saw that my choices consisted of saving my M or not saving my M. The OM was not even in the equation because it was over. It does sound like your W has sort of gone through these similar stages. I told my H, too, that I had doubts about my feelings for him and that I was concerned that we would be able to feel love for each other again. This site and all the books has given me hope, I may be even more hopeful than him because I have seen and read where M's have been restored.

I hope we all can continue to move forward and concentrate on how great our M's can be if we work at it. I appreciate sharing with all of you - it has been important in my recovery from my EA.

dwaiting - at the top of the forums, click on "Post" and you can start your own thread. You will find Plan A and alot of other information on the main site. You will find a wealth of information by reading there.


Cards, since you are discovering it is painful to rethink these days and details, are you finding yourself less pulled to keep those IM conversations? Do you think you will be ready to dispose of them soon?

I remember the OM posing how I would feel if we would stop talking way before the EA started. I did know at that point I didn't want to let go of him even before we started the EA.

My H and talked about our anniversary last night. Our anniversary is May 17th and coming up very quickly. We may have to put off celebrating for a few weeks due to graduation and other events. We are thinking of possibly going to a theme park for the day and just spend the day together. I hadn't thought about it much before this like you Cards, but I am glad we are talking about it now. My H said he had already had some ideas in his head, so that made me feel good that he was thinking of us.

Cards

As you said it seems you and my wife are at similar points in the process. Now you aren't my wife and I'm not your H, but what would you think my W would want most from me in terms of getting us back to those love feelings? Do you know what you need from your H to get there or is it a waiting game?

Owl says it's about talking, and that's something that we are starting to do, as much as I need to take the initiative, when we do talk, she is really beginning to open up.

I wish I could give her the kind of hope you seem to have found. I had her read your thread but she didn't have much to say about it. She still seems very hesitant to make the leap. As much as she says she's hopeful, I get the sense that she's still on the fence. I don't know if she has come to the point of realizing that her choices consist of saving our M or not saving our M. It seems she's taking a wait and see approach. Perhaps she's not confidant in beleiving that I have really made permanent changes and maybe she's waiting to feel in love before she commits to the fix. She is trying, she's doing her level best, but I guess I'm still looking for that declaration from her that says I want this to work. That may not come until she is confident that she wants me again. I wish there was some way to tell her we need to do a lot of the work before we get to that point. That I need a comitment to the work ahead , not neccesarily a comitment that it's going to work.

The last she told me (and this was when things were really bad) was "I WANT to WANT this to work" -I asked her not to tell me that b/c it just depressed me to hear. I haven't hear her say yet I WANT this to work. On the other hand, she is saying that she has hope. Hell we were talking about planning a trip to Disney World next year -sounds to me like she's decided to live her life as though it's going to work at least.

I guess this is my next big issue to talk about with her, this whole "I really need to know where you stand -I know you say you have hope and are apprehensive, but what is your level of comitment to us?"

2B-



Reiterating the facts of the discovery brought back the memory of all the emotions associated with those days. Not pleasant to think of the guilt and hurt I caused my H, and also remembering my own state of confusion during those days - I still clearly remember the sense of desperation when the 2 worlds collided. Just not pleasant memories.

What I really believe about the IM conversations I have is this:

1. If I really dig deep, these IM's represent EN's that were not being met for me. As silly as it may sound, saving them is "proof" that I am loveable. I am apparently not trusting that my H can meet those needs. That's hard to admit that I would be that fragile. This goes back to a comment I made a while ago about making the "jump" to my H.

2. I believe that by revisiting those conversations with an "unfoggy" will show me that there really was not much depth at all to the R, and that the fantasy & fog overtook my thinking. By being able to read them "at arms length" I think that I will see the EA for what it was - temporary insanity, not a real R. My hope would be that I could clearly see that I made the whole thing much bigger in my mind than it really was. I haven't done this yet because I want to be sure withdrawal is over. 2BN, when you say looking back in order to look forward, this is what it means for me.

Cards, I can understand how you feel with wanting to discover what the EA truly was and that it was not true R.
Do you honestly feel that you have to see the IM's in front of you to discover this? I have deleted all of the emails that I had, but I still have "burned" in my head the very words we spoke to each other. I can recall so many of the conversations if I dwelt on it. I am in no position to tell you to delete them without ever looking at them again as you know I hung on to mine and re-read them many times. I just don't know if it hindered my withdrawal process by revisiting them.

For me, I am still struggling with those EN's that the OM met and I really liked them being met. I cannot recapture that with my H, and I still have struggles with that. I know in my head that it's not going to be "recaptured" with my H, but I still think of how I felt with the OM. I know I have to think of reality here and it's hard sometimes. It's hard to not think back sometimes as much as I want to push forward with my M. Maybe I'm really still somewhat in a "fog" with thinking this way, but also I did prolong things with the continued contact that I had.

If you do decide to look at the IM's Cards, please consider telling your husband about the IM's.

You know guys, it sounds to me that by hanging on to this stuff you are doing something that will keep you from moving on. You are creating a basis for comparisson between your OMs and your Hs. Feeling compared to that idealized person makes the BS feel defeated before they even begin. Trust me, that was my first and number one anxiety going in -how can I, the person my W now finds undesireable compete with this fantasy man whom she is convinced she loves? I had to pull myself up by my bootstraps and go for broke, but every little vestige of the OM in my wife's life was like a landmine on the path to reconciliation. Even her involvement with the game they played together, and the guild she led that he was in. Until she was able to give those up too, I felt like there was still this link no matter how tenuous, and how indirect to him and it hurt like hell.

Even if your H doesn't know he's being compared,the fact that he is being compared will get in the way. You need to take your H for what he is and what he can and will do for you. You can't look back at the EA and hope that your H will be a replacement for that. The EA was it's own thing, what you can and will have with your H will be different, but can be as satifying if not better if you look at it on it's own merits, without comparing it to some lost ideal.

If you need to understand your EN's that were met, go through the IM's one last time, write down your impressions and then destroy them. Use the knowledge gained to help your H meet your ENs, but please, for his sake and yours, that "artifact" needs to go.

Sys-



What I think I need most to hear from my husband is that he is committed to saving our M no matter what it takes. I need to hear that he loves me no matter what. It is selfish and unfair that it is the BS’s burden to rekindle the “in-love” feelings, but for some reason we WS’s can’t/won’t take this responsibility. We should be the ones begging and pleading. For whatever reason this seems to be a common expectation from WS from what I’ve seen here, and I have to admit to being stuck in that as well.



I am fearful of the waiting game. The waiting game is what my H & I were doing before the EA, and the waiting game was the breeding grounds for the EA.



Read my point #2 on my previous post. Maybe this is true for your W too. We need to make the jump to trusting our H to meet our needs vs. OM. That is a key issue for me, trying to find the piece that will allow me to make that bridge.



THIS is the waiting game. Once she KNOWS and ACCEPTS that the EA is over she will face the fact that those are the only 2 realistic choices. She already knows intellectually that the EA is a symptom of a problem in the M, but she has to endure through the withdrawal and fog to really see the bottom line.



I remember saying this to my H as well, and meaning it. As long as OM thoughts were pervasive it seemed impossible to really WANT the M to work. After all, OM was filling the EN’s. I know it’s hurtful to hear, but she is being honest about her feelings. As Owl said, this honesty and intimacy was what the EA was all about. Allow her to feel comfortable with being honest. This is a waiting game as well, and is a function of NO CONTACT and TIME.



I have asked my H this question and unfortunately I have received unsure and ambivalent responses. Part of the problem is that you and I are working through these issues with direction from these sites and others that have been there. It has given us hope and resolve and knowledge - that my H hasn't drawn from anywhere. I think it would be so helpful if our spouses could be enlightened with this thinking and get on the same page as us! I think you are doing all the right things, Sys. It sounds to me like you have made efforts to express your love and commitment. From my perspective I think you should continue doing that because eventually it will click with her and she will realize that YOU are the one that truly loves her.

I see that you have posted again, Sys, and I appreciate your ideas. You make a good point that we need to remember that H and OM will never stack up. That's part of the fantasy. I do want to say,however, that I did not compare the OM with my H. The entire experience for me was not only another man, it was escape from busy, crazy, hectic life. I immediately told my H that it was comparing apples to apples. My H is actually more handsome than OM, and OM had several undesirable traits. No excuses, but remember that the affirmations to us had addicting properties, which led to the fog and unrealistic thinking.

Thanks a lot for that detailed response Cards, that all makes A LOT of sense. I have told my wife that I love her no matter what, I have told her I will do anything to save the marriage. I think part of her problem is that she was unhappy for so long that in her heart and in her mind she has moved on and isn't sure if she can or even wants to return to me. In the meantime, all I can do is show her how much I love and care for her, and hope that someday sooner than later that work will pay off. I suppose it's possible that even at my best I'm not what she wants -that's a big fear of mine, that she's moved on and is trying to make this work against her instincts that tell her it's over EA or no EA.



Same I suspect for my wife, the EA began and thrived while she was home caring for our young children. She had little contact with tother adults and when the OM (whom she knew for some time via and on-line game) went unemployed for a period of time , they spent the whole day together day after day playing the game and IMing and eventually on the phone. I was off at work and things were already not good between us so along comes this great guy who provided a shoulder to cry on about her frustrations with me and with the kids and he provided that companionship during the day as well.

I should say I should be more sensitive to the effect of the fog in terms of your comparing. That said, by actively retaining these keepsakes, don't you think that those transcripts are going to keep your mind in the past more than it should be? If I have one wish for my wife, it's that she jettison all vestiges of the OM and the EA. She will never forget him, but there's no reason to make it so easy to relive and therefore not fully put to rest.

Well... My H read my entire thread yesterday. I had actually encouraged him to get on this site on a few occasions, but he was reluctant. As you can imagine this brought up several issues and sparked some painful discussion for both of us. I have been honest about my feelings with him, so most of what I wrote was of no surprise. But, as you all suggested, he is hurt by the saving of the conversations. I do understand, but in my mind that has been a dead issue since these items have been put away for months and never touched. There was not a conscious effort to hide and keep them, just not an effort to destroy them.

Anyway, I know we will be dealing with this soon at home. I am glad that he took the time to read and understand the whole thing better. I think he was able to see the impact of this and grasp the importance that we work on our M. I had earlier expressed that I wished he wouldn't minimize what happened - now he understands and I am glad for that. We are finally both on the same page, at least in the sense the he understands where I am at. Now my work is to know where he is at. This may take some time as he is starting over from the beginning in some ways.

He is definitely more hurt than before and is fixated on my expressions of "feelings" towards this OM - certainly understandable. I wish there was a way to convey that it is not really about OM. Again the comparison issue, Sys. It's NOT about this guy being better than that guy. It's about something that wasn't in the M that someone else fulfilled. There is a difference.

Hope you all are doing well.

GOOD for you Cards !

This is going to boost your recovery like nothing else.

Remember, recovery means actually looking at and then dealing with the very painful previously hidden parts.

This is very cool !

Proud of you and your man!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Hi Cards,
So glad to hear that your H read your thread and that he has a much better understanding now. I'm also glad that the IM's are out in the open now for your H to know. I understand how you feel about them, but it does hurt our H's when we hang onto these things. My H was hurt by the things I kept and when they were all exposed, it made a difference in me and in my H for our M.

We have a busy busy weekend ahead. I'm still finding either my H or myself will bring up "something" about either A, and I'm ready for that to stop and for us to concentrate on our future. My H told me this morning that I need to quit "loooking back" at my failures and for us to look ahead. This will be my goal!

I hope your weekend goes well with all of this information and I hope that you have a wonderful Mother's Day weekend too!

2BN and Pep-

Thanks for your words of encouragement. I am feeling a bit down about the whole situation that came out yesterday, but I think it's due to the additional guilt and the additional pain I've inflicted yet again. I do still feel that this was necessary in order for us to move forward together. I had been working through things on my own while H had not really been tuned in. At least now we will be at the same starting point.

2BN-



I think this is hardest of all, and I keep failing to be able to explain this to myself or my H. He questioned how I could STILL think of OM, and it is so hard to put into words and make sense of it. Not WANTING to feel that way, yet not WANTING to forget what it was like when those EN's were being met. It is so much more complicated than just thinking about another man.

Owl, if you're reading, I am still getting lots out of the "5 Languages of Love" book. Thanks for the recommendation,

Have a great MOther's Day weekend all!

Cards,
This is really great. I know I wish my wife would read some of my posts as well. It might be painful for us both, but to be able to see things from my perspective would be an enormous help, I think -you tell me since our roles are reversed here.

I'm so glad that you and your H are on the road now. Getting past this point seems to be a huge step in the right direction. I know you feel badly about the hurt, but you need to remember that he's already been through a lot of pain. If my wife were to bring up something painful right now I would imagine it couldn't be worse than d-day or the day I found she hadn't been maintaining the intitial NC. In fact even if it hurt like hell, I think I would be so happy that we were actually communicating instead of avoiding or hiding feelings or "details".

Hope everyone has a great weekend. I'm hoping for a great Mother's day for us and especially for my W -wish us luck!

Cards - I understand about feeling down. I felt that way as well when I exposed "everything". To me it was so hard to tell my H even though I knew it was necessary. But, I do feel that that we are starting to move forward because I have nothing left to hide.


This is hard for me as well. I still am having a hard time viewing the OM as bad and I think it's because of the needs that the OM was meeting for me. My H told me that when I get to that point, I will be able to move forward. I look back at the first OM as bad, but still working on feeling that way for the 2nd OM.

Again, have a great weekend and Mother's Day!

Thanks, Sys-

I hope your W can come here soon. If not, is she confiding elsewhere? Are you still in MC? I would think she would need an outlet in order to sort out the feelings. For us I hope it is a big step, I'm not sure I feel that way today, though.

You mentioned about your W not honoring NC. The other BIG hurt my H expressed last night was reading again how I did not stop the EA after his discovery. That hurts him a lot that I was so weak to continue until OM W caught us. I'm feeling really low because of his comment to me that he now sees me differently. He had NEVER doubted my honesty and integrity until this EA - I have always been honest and open with him and everyone I know. That hurts immensely.

Keep going, Sys, and 2BN, we will get there!!! Keep the faith.

I hope I can get her here too, but for whatever reason, she seems loathe to do it this way. I think she thinks she'll be derided as a bad person out here. I've told her that that simply isn't the case, but I don't know.Or maybe she needs more privacy and if I'm here, she will feel she has to censor herself. I know I've said some things here that I might have put differently if I knew she was reading them and maybe that would be less effective. It seems like part of her strategy is to not look back, and hope that things work out going forward. Maybe this sort of place is to direct for her. I hope to talk to her about that too (add to my big list). She does have a few friends that she has been confiding in and they seem to be a help -one in particular.


Oh yeah my world was shattered when I discovered what was going on behind my back and then to learn that my wife had kept her unhappiness from me and then to have the NC broken was the last straw. I had to wonder if I knew her at all. I now have to fight every day to tell myself that she can't be lying about everything, that she can't be a bad person.I mean, she was the most caring and sensitive soul I know and yet she could do this unbearably horrible thing to someone she says she loved. I don't think she would hurt her worst enemy like this. I have to tell myself that she didn't do it to hurt me, but good Lord, what did she think was going to happen? It has gotten better ,but a lot of it is time, and rational thought reigning it in. But at first, I viewed everthing she said and did with suspicion. It hit me so hard I was having panic attacks 24-7. I was convinced she was scamming me everytime she agreed to to something to help our marriage, I was convinced she was buying time, you name it. Trust was beyond lost -I assumed the worst ALL the time. The woman I had entrusted with my love, my life, my soul had thrown all that away for someone else and for about a month I was like a zombie -I didn't know who she was or had become and didn't know what was happening to me -it was (and is) horrifying.

It will take alot of time and a supreme effort to demonstrate trustworthiness to repair this. I cannot imagine being hurt like that again by her and surviving it. Because of that, I can't afford to trust too much. I trust as much as I can, and I want to trust, but it is often an instinctual mistrust that I have to fight. It's that mistrust that sometimes still gets me paranoid and makes me wonder about her motives -is she sincere about working this out or is she plotting a better exit strategy? I beleive in my heart she is sincere, but that awful paranoid creature her betrayal gave birth to sometimes wins -and I hate it. I hate that it happened and I hate that it's become a part of me and I honestly sometimes hate her for doing it to me. But in the end, I love her so dearly, so completely that I find I can't help but forgive it and I turn that hate to simple regret and sadness. I've got some distance to go.