I have to agree here with Owl. Cards, does your H know what your "feelings" were toward the OM? I never outright told my husband that I "loved" the OM, but from what I communicated to my husband about what happened, I am positive he knows it and the seriousness of what happened and that I had "love" feelings for the OM. It's been interesting in that there were periods where my husband wouldn't let me talk much about the A and now more recently since "everything" is out, he will let me talk about it.

2BN & Owl



Actually, yes, early on we did talk about the fact that I felt that new "in-love" feeling. In fact, every time he questioned why I was still in withdrawal I would have to point out the strong feelings I had. I never said, either, that I loved OM, but I did say it felt like falling in love. Maybe he is just not "hearing" me, or, realizing the seriousness. I just don't know. So, maybe I'm back to what Owl suggested and have him hear it from a MC or reading some threads.

It is interesting, 2BN, that your H now is more open to talking about OM. Maybe some kind of defense mechanism that earlier on he didn't feel secure enough about you to hear about it? Now that he really believes you are back in the M maybe he's not afraid to hear it and/or for you to talk about it? Owl, can you speak to going through "stages" like this?

Well, I can't say that I personally went through stages like this, but I've seen others that do. In my case, once we'd gotten to the point where she DIDN'T fly, I was willing to listen to anything pretty much. I wouldn't/didn't always AGREE with her view (remember, fog talk at it's finest here), but I was willing to listen. It also made sense for me to do my best to understand where she was coming from, and what they're R was, so that I could do my best to help HER recover from it. Even when we were seriously working towards seperation, I was willing to do my best to sit and listen to her talk about what went on.

In our case, at first we were both willing to talk. Then, after we began to reconcile, we've really been to the point where we'll only bring it up if something else causes us to think of it.

My guess is that at first, your husband was dealing with his own pain and shock over the whole thing, so wasn't able to deal with or think about YOUR pain as much...but now that the 'crisis' is over, he's able to help YOU too. I've always reacted the other way...I deal with the crisis first, THEN worry about my own issues.

In my case, there was no doubt of her feelings for him...the IM's that I logged contained NUMEROUS "I love you"'s from both of them...and when I confronted her about him, she told me then that she loved him. Again, it's hard to deny how serious something is when you're faced with that, combined with her accepting plane tickets to go live with him.

We just had a good phone conversation over my lunch break. We both re-affirmed that how she felt for him then does not change how she feels about me, or us, now. She understands how I felt. She also knows how I feel about her too, which is a good thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Cards and 2B-

I think that the biggest thing that your husbands need in order to deal with what you've been through is to know and understand exactly what went on, how you felt, and how you feel now. They can't forgive what they don't know or understand. In my case, I saw the IM exchange for the last 5 days of the A...I saw first hand what they talked about, and what they shared with each other. My wife made it very clear to me when we tried to talk on d-day what she felt, and what had been going on. So, my choice to forgive was based on full knowledge of what I was forgiving. And through counseling, we both managed to forgive each other for the events leading up to, during, and after the A.

Does this provide any insight friends?

I just thought of something else. In our early talks after d-day and after he had read some of our IM conversations, my H did make the comment that he believed that if the EA had continued it would have led to more and possibly a meeting. So......he did get it, at least initially.

Owl - you were brave to look at your W's IM's. My husband did not want to see specifically what the conversations were between the OM and I. He just couldn't handle it. He had the opportunity to look at whatever he wanted whenever he made me delete the 1000's of emails, but he chose not to. I have tried to tell him in "general" some of the content, but not specific details. One of the conversations I had with my H this week was about conversations the OM and I had about "plans" with being married and how we tried to think of different situations and where we would live. I think my husband definately realized that if I was thinking that, then I was thinking I would have divorced him for sure! Soooo glad it didn't get to that point!

Cards - My husband and I talked alot when the A first came out and then he went through that period of where he heard enough....but remember he thought all communications had ended when that happened. I think now he realizes that I do need to sometimes talk about it and work through my thoughts in order for us to work on our marriage. He has really been supportive of this this week. It seems as if your H did get what the EA was since he made the comment that you would possibly have tried to get together with the OM if it continued. He may just be tired of it all, as my husband goes through that and did go through that. My H wants us to have normalcy again.

Hope you both have a great weekend! It's prom weekend (tonight) for my oldest daughter and things are going to be busy here soon. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

2B-

I saw them on the morning of d-day...it was how I 'discovered' the A. I knew that they were close...I suspected something may have been just really getting started...I had no idea how quickly things had happened. I wasn't able to read through them that morning, really just the first few lines or so. It was enough to tell me how bad it was...and so I confronted my wife with them. It took me about 2 or 3 months before I could get to finally read all of them. These were the IM's from the last 5 days or so of the A, and were VERY painful for me to bear. But I really felt that I needed to read them, to know exactly what it was that they were discussing and planning and feeling...so that I could understand WHAT and WHY everything happened.

The content sounds similar to what your husband saw as well...they were just getting to the point where they were trying to figure out how this would all work. They were also just planning on how/when to meet in person as well.

I'm really worried about how I'm going to deal with the next few weeks. So many memories of everything keep popping up because of events with the kids and all. There are a few things that are about to happen that my wife had talked with her OM about sharing with him...and it's hard for me to 'forget' that she had wanted to (and had planned to when she was planning on leaving) share these events with him far more than she wanted to with me. One of them is later this week, the other this coming up weekend. Luckily, we've got counseling again this Friday...I'm hoping that we'll be able to go in there and brag about how well we've handled this.

Right now, I'm trying to stay focused on how things are going for us NOW...and to stay out of the memories of then. Hopefully that will help me deal with this as we move forward.

Hope the both of you had a good weekend...very very busy one here too. Two teens in prom on Sat, and a b-day yesterday for the younger set.

How are you, all my friends? How was your weekend?

We had another busy weekend, but my H shocked me this morning when HE asked that we start back up with talking every night (we had made a concerted effort a while back, but since soccer season has started our evenings have been crazy!). This coming from the guy who I practically had to tie down to a chair to have more than a 5 minute conversation with. Oh, did I ever mention that my H is ADD? Anyway, I looked at him questioningly and he said he feels like we need to keep going forward and that we haven't been talking enough. I asked him if it feels like it did before the EA and he said it's not as bad as that, but wants it to be better. I have ALWAYS initiated these types of discussions, so I am pleasantly surprised to even hear this from him.

I just read Sys post from today. I can identify with him in that we, too, are working towards "liking" each other. We had gotten too far apart, and there wasn't much connection at all. I mentioned the ADD. My H has many wonderful qualities, but there has been quite a bit of chaos in our lives, too, in part due to some of his traits. I know that he feels responsible for causing a lot of it in the past, and my EA makes me more "human" to him. I think he sees it that my "mistake" has somehow made us more "equal" in our humanness. Isn't that strange?

Oh well, just my observations of the day. I am feeling more relaxed about the situation today, and accepting that this will take time.

OM still enters my brain, and I am still trying to connect why and when, but the memories are fading. I also identified another trigger I had not really been aware of. When I first began talking to OM last fall, it was right when we were finishing our basement. In fact, I remember talking to OM while the cabinet installer was at our house and when our furniture was delivered. From that point on whenever I was down there watching TV I remember watching the clock for when we would meet online. I know that I have avoided being down there and watching TV with the kids for the last few weeks, but I thought it was that I just wasn't interested in TV anymore. It is amazing that our minds can link all those things together and create such havoc!

Owl - Must have been VERY hard for you to 'discover' the A with the IM's. I often think of that with the OM's W when she saw our emails and discovered the A having no clue anything was going on prior to that.


This is a good focus - to focus on the NOW instead of these memories that are tough for you right now. Are these memories tough for your W as well?

I had a really tough weekend, well mostly yesterday was tough. My husband had pressed me for some details of the A that I had not wanted to share previously and it made for a tough day. We are working through it though.

I never did tell my H about that old email account that the OM used for 2 weeks (back in Sept.) in which there are some old emails of mine. The OM had used the same password as the newer email account, so that is how I had looked at it. The OM has no idea that I would have looked there. I have not looked at it anymore, and I am certain the OM has long forgotten of that account. I have just made a promise to myself to not look there since it does not belong to me. I had thought about telling my H of it so he can look at the emails. It was really the very start of the A and the emails show us going back and forth with struggling to stop the A. Any suggestions on this Owl? (maybe I should take this over to my thread?)

Cards, That is great news that your H wants to start back with talking every evening! It's good that he recognizes that you both need this.

Cards, I still have triggers and thoughts like you. I'm hoping over time it become fewer and fewer! I keep thinking after we pass a year of when the A ended (I know that's a long time!) that the past year will be only the memories of my H and I and then I won't be having those triggers based on time and events.

Weekend was very busy with my oldest having prom on Friday and a school Banquet on Saturday. She had broken her toe 3 days prior to this but seemed to make it through the events just fine. Yesterday was a horrible day as I noted in my above post. Hope you had a great weekend!

2B-

I'm not sure on how you should mention those emails to your H at this point. Remember, you've already done a 'full disclosure' to him a couple of times...and each time, there seems to be something else that he's still not aware of. As I warned you before, that just tends to prolong how long it takes for the trust to begin rebuilding. Given that he's not wanted to read emails up to this point, do you think that he'll be willing to read the ones you're referring to now?

I think that you'd probably best be served by talking with him about it. I'm sure its painful for you to do, but I think that it's healthier for the both of you to deal with it together, as opposed to simply asking him to read the emails. Tell him what you two did to try to avoid the A, and to end things before it got too far.

My wife has mentioned how they 'fought it', and tried to keep the A from starting. I'm not sure exactly how that works myself, as I've not been so tempted that I'd ever let something like that happen myself. Personally, I've always taken the steps to end a friendship or whatever if it had the potential to cross that line, and so it's hard for me to envision fighting something like this but NOT ending it before it got to that point. Your husband is likely to have that same kind of difficulty in understanding what this point was like for you too...something you might want to be aware of.

My wife doesn't think about these things in the same way I do. She tends to avoid thinking about the A...she'd like to feel like it never happened I think. For the most part, I think her feelings are more along the lines of guilt and shame about it, as opposed to ongoing feelings for the OM. She's repeatedly told me that she doesn't miss him anymore...that for her, it's over and done. Personally, I would guess that she DOES still have some feeling of loss, but that it's greatly diminished from what it was, and that the improvements in our M have helped her to overcome that so that its not on her mind anymore.

Owl, yesterday I had asked my H why he didn't want to read the emails that he made me delete. He then told me that I wouldn't let him! I didn't really remember that until he told me yesterday! I remember showing him a few selected emails before deleting all of them and now I do recall not wanting him to see the emails that I KNEW would hurt him if he read them.

As far as this email account. It's not mine. The OM never knew I looked at it so I felt foolish if I would have asked my H to tell the OM to change that password. It hasn't been used ever again and was only used for those 2 weeks. I discovered somewhere along the way that it was the same password and looked at it one day and used to it to try to sort out the whole A in my mind. What's in there are my emails to him. The emails in his sent box to me were deleted by him at some point. I'm not sure if it's even worth mentioning to my H or not if I am not going to go back to it. I did tell my H before about how the A started and that we kept trying not to "start it". My H is aware of the context of the beginning emails and they were part of the emails I had deleted from my email account on D-Day.

As far as "fighting" the A....once you cross the line from a friendship to the A, you can never go back. The only way to end it would have been to stop contact at that time. This was very evident to me after I looked back at those emails. What happened with us is that the first day we went into the A with admitting our "feelings" for each other, we knew in our "heads" we shouldn't have gone "there". The very next day, we decided that it was wrong and then tried to go back to just being "friends". It became IMPOSSIBLE!! We continued this back and forth for quite sometime. The OM had actually thought we should stop communicating back then, but we still pressed on with it. He had actually told me back in the beginning that I should be "running" from him and that he wasn't good for me. I could have chosen to do that at the time, but I couldn't or I guess I should say I didn't want to! He had later told me that he didn't push ending the communications with me because he didn't really want to as well.

I'm in a weird place myself regarding wanting to know the details of the A. It seems that a lot of BS's want to know but frankly, I'd just as soon not. A question for the BS's -what's to be gained? It seems to me that knowing what the conditions that lead to it is important, but diggin in to the acutal A itself almost seems perversly voyeuristic if no masochistic to me. It almost seems like an act of punishment to make the WS dredge up all of those details. I need enlightenment.

2BN-

Sorry you had a tough weekend. I'm unclear about the OM email - are there emails still in there that you can access? You have taken such strides in ridding yourself of the pictures, emails, etc, I would think you would not want to have any others to tempt yourself.

You also talked about re-reading old emails in order to sort the A out. I think this is why I am holding on to my conversations. I copied them off when my H discovered the EA, but never went back to read them. I am tempted to read them now because I think that reading them in this light would help me see the foolishness of what I did. I don't think I am disillusioning myself with this thinking. I really believe I will be able to see that the R was not what I believed it to be in my head. I am hoping that I can read between the lines and really see some things about OM that would open my eyes. Do you think this would be dangerous to do?

Owl



In a word - ADDICTION - , for myself at least. A physical, emotional ADDICTION that overpowered me. I do not have an addictive personality, which goes to show you that anyone can succumb to this. I, too, remember telling OM when we had "crossed the line". We both agreed that it was wrong, but at that point we both were too powerless and weak to stop. Yes, 2BN, once the "feelings" were revealed to each other it was too late. Even after we had BOTH been caught by our spouses. I, personally, had never before been in the situation of being in a friendship that was on its way to an A, so I did not know what signs to see in myself that the R was becoming a problem before it was too late.

I think it's probably true for your W, Owl, that she doesn't miss HIM. For me a sense of loss, loss for a person that was cared about, and loss of someone caring about me. You both are doing great, just keep your focus on the future. You are individuals and are dealing with the situation from different vantage points, but you are on the right path together and have the same goal. Remember that!

2B-

I grant that the only way once the feelings come out is to end contact completely. I have known that for a long time...it's just depressing to know that my wife (like you) chose NOT to end contact at that point. But...it's in the past. It's NOT ongoing now.

Just a thought...since OM doesn't use that email account anymore, why don't YOU delete the emails that are in it? Then there would be nothing there for you to go back to.

I'm not surprised that you 'mis-remembered' how the email thing went. Still a small waft of fog floating around is my guess. My wife went through a lot of that too...even months later, she'd recall something completely differently than I would, and I'd have to go back and prove to her that what I had seen was the case sometimes.

Interesting how the OM in your case had tried to get you to 'run away' from him...my wife's OM played Devil's Advocate too...honestly, it's a very effective ploy to solidify feelings...he convinced you to look for the reasons to be with HIM by doing it that way. Think about it. I know it worked like a charm in my wife's case. And that conversation happened the day before I began logging IM's. It just helped to convince my wife more than ever that he was the one for her...because he was being so 'selfless'.

Cards-

Sorry for the threadjack here my friend...it sometimes seems like all three of us are sharing this thread for us to heal.

You have no idea how good it is to hear that he's asked you for the continued communication, AND that you responded so positively to it! That really is a good thing...keep it going!

Triggers aren't always a logical thing...it's all about emotions and associations. Not surprising that you've been blindsided by something like that...all of us have to deal with those in some way or another.

I hope you and your husband DO make use of the time in the evenings to talk things out. Take a look at that book I'd mentioned before..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" by Dr Steve Stephens. It was a good tool for my wife and I...we used it to spark exactly those kind of conversations. We've talked about going back through it now that we're no longer in 'crisis mode' now too. Just a thought.

Again, glad to hear that you're doing well!

OWl-

DON'T apologize for thread-jacking. It's actually easier to keep up with everyone if we're all in the same place!

My OM "apologized" for getting me into "this". He also suggested that maybe we should stop when my H discovered us. But when I told him that I was saying goodbye to him he responded by saying we can talk during the day. Not blaming him, we were BOTH in the fog.

Cards - I'll try to be more clear on this. This email account was the first email account the OM had created for us to communicate by email. Previous to this, we had communicated ONLY by PM's on the forum that we met. We send PM's back and forth from February 2004 until the beginning of Sept. 2004. I had let go of the first OM by the middle of August to put this all on a timeline for you. Then we suggested switching to email in September. He had some problems with this particular email account with it taking to long to receive my emails to him, so after about 2 weeks he changed email addresses. The email account he switched to was the one my H knows of and the OM just changed the password to last Monday. I believe the OM never went back ever to that first email account because it was so long ago and probably long forgotten by him. When I had accessed it after D-Day there had been no activity in it whatsoever. The emails in there are ONLY my emails to him in his in box. But because of the way we emailed, there are quotes from his emails on my emails to him. Nothing else is in there.

It was these few weeks of emails that I had re-read and tried to sort through. I had also read through all of the PM's that we had written each other. I have since deleted the PM's. What was interesting to me was that all the PM's (the majority of them) where his trying to help me with letting go of the first OM and then us discussing our M's. Interesting to read his words to help me end an A after we had an A ourselves! I guess for me it did help some, but I only had these beginning emails, not the ending emails to sort through. I am glad that that's is all there was for me to go back to. Rememeber though that I had looked at these months ago. That was when I did my sorting out. I honestly think all of the later emails would have been more harm to look at. I'm guessing that if you are like me Cards, that you have most of these conversations "burned" in your head and that you most likely remember most of the details of them. Do you really want to bring all of that back up now?

Owl, I had thought about just deleting my emails in the OM's email account,but then I didn't feel right to do that since I didn't create that account and the OM never knew I had accessed it. This is why I am just not going back there. I think with most of these email accounts that after a certain period of inactivity, the account will close.

Cards - I have never told you that with the first OM, it was my oldest daughter that saw me IMing him!! She had no clue who I was talking to, but immediately told my H that I was talking to someone and she didn't know who. This was all about 2 weeks prior to this OM coming to see me. His coming to see me was already planned and I didn't want that "plan" to fail. I told my H a general story of who this person was and then asked the OM to send me a "fake email" of not contacting me again. I couldn't stop and pushed forward with the OM seeing me! It is a HUGE ADDICTION that we had and it was continued sadly on my family's expense!

Talk about addictions.... I think I've replaced the addiction to OM with talking to you all! Oh well, much healthier!

Sys, my H would agree with you. He initially DID want to know the details, but since January when he discovered the EA he has not wanted to know more. Here's what happened in our case. For whatever reason, I saved all our IM conversations. My H had begun to suspect something was up. 2BN, my kids were aware I was chatting with "a friend" over Christmas vacation when I was home with them. This came up once or twice in conversations. I explained it away as my card partner and laughed it off to the whole family. At some point my H had heard the name once too often and put two and two together one night when I was up at 4 am chatting. At the time he didn't push me or look at what I was doing, but the following week he asked to check my email because he said he had given mine out for job hunting purposes. I gave it to him & he found an email where we had arranged to meet at a certain time. Immediately my H assumed this was a PA and we were meeting somewhere. He confronted me a couple days later & I explained it was an online friend. He said a few things that made me think he had read the conversations I had saved, so I asked him about that. It turns out he hadn't then, but it tipped him off to do a thorough pc search. He saw the conversations and read only a couple before I walked in one day. I know he read one where we were mildly flirting, but this is also how he found out about the webcams. He was outraged (naturally) and left the house, which is when I copied off the conversations and deleted them off the hard drive. He later asked about the conversations and when I told him I had deleted them he seemed somewhat relieved.

I think some BS would want to know every detail so that they could try to understand their WS and what was going on in their heads. But I think for my H it was enough to know that I was emotionally & physically attracted to someone else. I think that was enough information for him - that was bad enough. I don't know the answers for you, Sys, it probably varies from person to person. It may be that later down the road you will want to know more. I'm sure Owl has thoughts on this.

My wife told me her OM said he would drive us to MC if he could....that's how much he cared for her happiness. What a load.

Sys-

In my case, I haven't really asked for much in the way of details. There aren't many, nor is there much that she didn't freely offer once everything came out. At that point, she had nothing to lose by telling me the truth...she was all set to leave me for him.

I can understand the need though. I did need to know what went on, for a few reasons. I needed to understand what it was that I was forgiving her for. A blanket "I forgive you" means nothing to me...but knowing what took place, I could get to the point where I could say "I forgive you"...and mean it. I needed to understand what it was that she was seeing in him, and getting from him, that I SHOULD have been providing for her. It also helped to know what it was that she was withdrawing FROM, when we were in that phase. It all helped me better understand how to help her too. In some ways, it also helped me to deal with the situation with her...because a lot of it sounded really foolish even to HER when she was telling me about it. It put it into perspective for HER, just telling it to me.

And it is possible that your need for answers may change, once you've gotten to the point where you are no longer in 'crisis mode'. In the first few months, it was all about saving my marriage...once my marriage seemed secure, THEN things started to bother me...and I've since started working on healing ME now. You may find yourself in that same boat as well.

I'm glad the 'working on yourselves' approach of counseling is doing you some good my friend. In our case, it was the opposite of what we needed. Heck, the PROBLEM was that we had gotten too far apart from each other, so working on ourselves didn't seem to be doing anything to fix our marriage. We did it the other way...we worked on the marriage, and once we got to a point where we knew that it would survive, we started backing off and taking care of ourselves. But as long as it works, any method is good!