Owl,

Yes I was thinking of leaving in June if things didn't work out, but nothing was set in stone.

Win,
I'm sorry. The effects of withdrawls can last well past June, especially since NC just recently started (or is about to start). Your perspective will not be clear in June, if that is your goal. You are so embroiled in OM right now, really, you cannot make an unbiased judgement about your M for quite some time.

Your friend,
GS

Win, I have to agree with Gentlsoul -you aren't going to be feeling much better by June -in fact, it might be worse if you successfully keep to the NC (with everyone).

The one thing that worried me the most was the idea that my WS was putting a time limit on our recovery. In the beginning I told her that from my understanding the whole process can take a few years (she said at the time she couldn't wait that long , but now seems to be willing to see). It was really about 8 weeks or so before my wife could tell me that she was hopeful for our marriage and willing to give it time.

My advice to you is for now to have faith that the people out her are right -that you are in the fog and not rational. Give the NC some time to work and tell you H that you are giving it the time (if you can -I think it will mean a lot to him -nothing worse than feeling given up on).

Win - Everyone here is here to help and support you. Withdrawal is so very hard. It's something I never wish to go through again in my life. Owl, has some very good points about really making an effort for NC and taking extreme measures to make it happen. It will be tough Win, but once you make it through withdrawal, you will be able to think clearly about yourself, your H and your M. Work together with your H to make NC happen for both of you. I, like you, prolonged my withdrawal by continuing to have some contact with the OM. It was hard and I do know how you feel, but NC is the only way to make it through. Everytime you feed yourself with a "little contact", you keep those thoughts of the OM fresh and the withdrawal process takes longer.

We are here to guide and support you through this because we care about you Win!

Win-

Just got done catching up on Bass's thread over on the divorce page.

I've got to say that there are a few things that I just don't think you're quite getting, friend.

You posted there that you were going to have one last chat, and it would be your last. WHY?!?!?!

Do you have any idea how hurtful, how disrespectful, how flat out selfish that is?!?!

I'm sorry, but it's time you started to actually take some responsibility here for what you're doing. Let me be as flat out blunt as I can...I know that you're angry at Bass for the way that he treated you, and the way that your marriage was for years. But, it still takes two to tango. You had your share in that marriage as well. You COULD have left, had you chose. You also could have taken any number of other steps, like turning him in to the police, or scheduling him for re-hab on the drugs...you could have laid down the law on the long hours of gaming, and on the trips.

BOTH OF YOU HAD OPTIONS, AND BOTH OF YOU HAD A HAND IN LETTING YOUR MARRIAGE GET OUT OF HAND.

Now that it's all 'out of the bag', he's taking the steps that he sees as needed to fix the situation. You're not. You're also continuing to do things DELIBERATELY INTENDED TO HURT HIM. The online flirting, the continued chats, etc... You need to quit worrying about 'getting even' for how the marriage was before the A's, and start worrying about fixing what's wrong now.

You feel as though this is all due to 'withdrawl', which is why you're continuing to do this. After looking back through all of these posts, and all of the threads that have gone on between you and Bass, I'm not so sure at this point. Honestly, while my wife did do and say some very hurtful things, and while SOME of it was deliberately intended to hurt, for the most part she didn't mean to hurt me. SHE ACTUALLY REGRETTED WHAT I WENT THROUGH as a result of her EA. She knew it was going to hurt me, she regretted that it would, but she did it anyway. There, I've said it. I know it. BUT AT LEAST SHE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HURT TO ME. She regretted hurting me, totally regardless of the withdrawl, totally regardless of how she felt during her withdrawl. I've not seen a shred of that in any of your posts to this point.

All I've seen from your numerous posts and discussions here is a habit of bringing up how you felt before the A, whenever anyone has tried to point out to you that the choice to have the EA was yours. That tells me that you're STILL not actually accepting the RESPONSIBILITY for the EA. You blame him for the conditions of your M that lead to it, and you justify the EA in that manner. Without taking any responsibility for your own role in the M prior to the A, for your own actions and behavior during the A, nor for your actions and behavior SINCE the EA.

At this point, if there is a chance for your family to recover from this at all, you both need to make some changes. You have two options. Either take the steps to see if there is anything salvagable in your M and your family, or just call it a done deal now. It's that simple.

Regardless, at this point I think that you BOTH need to take steps to fix the hole in your family...and that hole started with the internet. Either remove it, or change how it's managed (keylogger, passworded access, etc...). YOU need to become accountable for your actions. You need to stop citing 'withdrawl' as a reason for your continued contact with OM and others. You need to actually START withdrawl by actually ending the contact. THEN Bass will have to step back, and let you work through that. And after you've gone through that process....THEN decide what your next steps should be.

By no means am I saying that Bass didn't do a number of things wrong that lead up to the state of your M right now. Not at all. Had my wife acted in any of those ways, our M would have drastically changed or ended YEARS ago. I don't know that he's made any changes in his behavior since then...YOU do, since you're there with him. That's up to YOU to see.

At this point, the choices are up to the two of you.

I'm done. There isn't any more advice I can offer you at this point. It's all up to YOU now. Time to do what you need to do.

2BN-
How are you doing with your 'forum' issue? Have you discussed it with your H yet? Hope things are going well for you.

Sys-
I know that I had no set 'timeline' for when I expected our marriage to recover. I was actually very surprised at how fast our situation turned around... How's the online gaming going for the two of you? We still play occasionally, but haven't been on very much lately. As a matter of fact, I just sent a 'letter of resignation' as an officer in the guild I'm in, as I just don't have the time or energy to do that any longer.

Cards-
How are things going for you my friend? Have things started to come together for you and your H yet?

Win-
Hope you take the last post I'd sent to you in the manner it's meant...to help.

Hey Owl,

The game's good. We found a great guild and we're having a lot of fun. Pre-D-Day, my W was REALLY into EQ and I wasn't so one of the things that built animosity in our marriage (unspoken animosity) was my EQ widowhood and the fact that she had a social life that I wasn't a part of. At the time I never saw the hurt it was causing me, I guess i didn't want to say "honey, that game you love so much is coming between us", nor did I see ahead far enough to join her in it.

Now though, we have this game in common and I think it's helping us reconnect on a recreational level. We have the oppurtunity to work together on common goals and have the same experiences to discuss and the same goofballs to dis -it's nice. That and the guild only knows us as a couple, which is nice to be seen that way and to be able to present ourselves that way.

The only downside is that sometimes I feel like it's a distraction from working on us in a more serious way. It does provide a convenient escape from the deep issues. Frankly, most of the time I think it's beneficial to keep it light, but I do worry that maybe it also provides a quick escape from having to sit face to face. I have no doubt thatif I said to my W "hey let;s not play tonight, I need to talk" she wouldn't balk, but generally, I 'd rather not bring things "down" unless I need to.

That brings up an interesting area of discussion for people in our situation (Cards?) what is of more benefit to a couple trying to recapture their affection and love -keeping it light and relaxed, trying to not get too heavy (like it was when we first met), or digging into the dirt and getting the deep feelings out. I imagine as with most things, it's a balance of the two.

Owl - I still haven't discussed the forum issue with my H. Things are going really well with my H and I right now.

I didn't get a chance to explain what happened at that marriage seminar on Saturday. There were many communication skills given to us to learn and to practice that very day. Quite interesting and helpful ideas. Towards the end of the day, we were shown a clip to the movie I referred to the other day. The scene was one in which the H & W were on their way to pick up their children after being gone from camp. They were going to break the news to their children that they were going to get divorced. As the couple were on their way, the W had flashbacks of their life over all the years of them together and the children. She then realized even if they divorced, it did not change the history of what they had and the history could not be rewritten. It was quite emotional. They both realized that yes, marriage is tough and they have had many bumps along the way, but that it was worth it. They were best friends - they have a history of "us". They ended up not divorcing. This scene practically gave me a break-down right there. I could not fight or hold back my tears. Now...my H was upset that I was crying. He didn't want me to make a scene so that no one would "know anything". He can be very prideful. Well, this made things even worse for me to be dealing with these emotions and then to deal with my H trying to tell me to stop crying! Well, I just about calmed myself and the next thing and last thing we were to do for the day was to pretend that our spouses were dead and that we were talking over them and reflecting about our lives and what meant the most etc... This was to put in perspective for us how un-important so many issues are that we worry about. Could not do that at all or the breakdown would have occurred again. We were to actually have our spouse lay on the floor while we talked over them. So to sum that day up, it really made me think about "us" and our M and what possibly I could have thrown all away all because of the stupidity I was in with these EA's. I realized how much I love my H and care for him so very much. I honestly never had thought about any of this in quite this way until that day. I look at the OM now as someone who I don't even know why I would have thrown my family and M away for. Why did it take me so long to see and realize this? I believe the final "fog" has lifted!

2BN-

Glad to hear how things are coming into perspective!! That's great news!

Remember that the fog will still occasionally creep in, but now it will be out a LOT more than it will be in. Glad to hear that things are going well.

Owl - Did your wife go in and out of the fog for a period of time and how long? I can't imagine the fog ever again being the way it was a few months ago.

Yeah, she would go in and out of it occasionally. Sometimes I think she still does somewhat. Not nearly to the point it was, but still she'll say something that is contrary to what she'd said before. Kinda hard to explain, but it's just one of those things.

But it's not nearly to the degree that it had been before, so don't panic about it, friend. You've done a great job, and I'm sure that you and your husband are going to be fine.

Win Bin,

You said
Then I read your posts to your husband. You don't know what you want do you? Well, let me tell you something you had better start wanting really really fast.

You should be wanting a much better strategy for dealing with life than you have right now. If you don't learn how to deal with life better than calling men, talking to them on the internet, doing whatever with these men, then you are DOOMED to a life of misery.

It does not matter if you stay with your H or not, YOUR problems are going to follow you, and they are your lack of commitment, your lack of boundaries, and your inability to face situations. So you hide in the ether, you have affairs in the ether, you rub you H's face in it with the help of the ether. But, you have shown no ability to get out of the ether and face life.

That means, that your next relationship whether it is with OM or someone else is pretty much going to follow the same path. When things get tough, you will hide in the fantasy of the ether, that the internet brings you.

IF you want to have a happy life (with or without your H), you need to go to NC with this OM, and cease all of your other chatting with the other men on line. You need to stop seeking happiness IN other people. You need to go through withdrawal, feel the PAIN of it, the LONELINESS of it, the DESPAIR of it. You MUST endure all of it, and come out of the other side, OR your life will end up being a repeat of what has happened so far.

You can run but you cannot hide from YOURSELF. You have blamed everything on your H, but in reality ALL of the mess you are in NOW is a product of your decisions, your choices, and you hiding from hard things.

I am NOT saying stay with your H or leave your H. Your issues have NOTHING to do with your H, because it is clear you feel there is nothing wrong with betrayal, there is nothing wrong in talking and sharing with men that KNOW you are married and hence don't have your best interests at heart, and you think there is NOTHING wrong with blaming someone else for you stupid decisions.

Have I been clear enough with you? Do you want me to become really blunt? I think for you to have a happy life you have to face and endure the consequences of your internal failures, and that means NC with OM, and the OTHER MEN, and enduring withdrawal from them. This is NOT about your marriage Win Bin, he is just collateral damage to your inability to face life.

I wish there was a nicer, more comfy way to say to you what I have said, but the others here have been doing that and you still are contacting the OM, and chatting with other men on the net. Time to stop. And address the baggage you are carrying. You remind me of the time honored advice.

When you find yourself in a deep hole, the first thing you should do is "put down the shovel."

You need to put down the shovel (the chatting with men and OM), and start to address how to get out of this hole.

Please, please think about what I have said.

God Bless,

JL

Owl,

When I said I was having one last chat, I was referring to Bass' one last coaster trip. I didn't mean I was doing it, I was trying to point out how hypocritical he's being by taking his trip. However I do think the space would be good for us at this point. Whatever he wants to do is fine with me at this point.

Yes I haven't been thinking about how I hurt H because I have so much resentment built up through the years. I was wrong. Yes I am responible for falling in love with OM and hiding that from H, even though H knew I was talking to OM and other OM's.

On my feelings before the A, I was merely stating that before any of this happened (NOT HOW I REMEMBER IT NOW), I had doubts about the marriage. I tried to talk to him, he wasn't ready to listen. He is now. Yes I regret not walking out on him earlier to get him to see my point of view on his destructive addictions and behavior.

What I was referring to about helping H with plan A, was having him let me be while I go through withdrawal. He wants me to go through it, but doesn't want me to be depressed and takes it personally. I can't help how it's making me feel, I can't just walk around happy right now. Every few days he, gets angry because I'm sad and depressed and pressures me to be nice and happy. It just pushes me away.

I have to do NC for myself not just for H. It does me no good emotionally to contact the OM anymore and I want to get over it. NO ONE can help me do that.

-win

Justlearning,

Yes I need a better way of dealing with life, like i should have walked out on H years ago for his controlling, addictive behaviors. I'd like to say he had a lack of commitment to ME for many years. He put his addictions, games, hobbies always ahead of me. He even agreed to let me flirt/phone with guys because he was getting what he wanted out of it:sex.

I blame my H for what is his fault. BUT I also blame myself for not standing up to him years ago and demanding a better relationship or leaving. Yes I was an idiot. We played this flirting game together and I was bored and lonely, ripe to fall in love with someone else. I let it happen IT WAS WRONG.

Both H and I need to better deal with our relationship and LIFE. NOT JUST FOR US but for ourselves as individuals no matter what happens.

WE ARE BOTH TO BLAME..I've stopped my chatting and started NC!!


I have to work now.
-win

Win,

I agree that it's not realistic to expect you to be happy and not depressed at this point in time. I'm curious if that really IS Bass's feelings, or if you two just aren't communicating well on this.

Again, have the two of you worked out a PLAN on how to help you ensure that you don't slip anymore on the chatting and NC with the OM?

What about a PLAN to ensure that Bass is meeting some of YOUR requirements/needs?

Right now, it appears to me that you're just coasting along, waiting to see what happens next. Why not start DOING something to help yourselves? Believe it or not, just doing NC is NOT all you can manage. If you start working on something OTHER than that, you'll be amazed at how that can help you keep that off of your mind all the time.

When we were in your phase of things, we were working on a LOT of things. We were working on helping my wife's resume, looking at job options for her, we were sorting through a lot of our 'stuff' just to streamline things in case we DID seperate. We actually rearranged the house for an in-house seperation.

Get an idea here?

Good luck my friend.

Win Bin,

Did you notice that I was not talking to your H or about your H, or even your marriage, and yet virtually ALL of your response is about your H and "WE ARE BOTH TO BLAME".

You have missed the point. Blame is useless and has NOT solved a single problem for you. Stop the blaming and face who you are, what you are, and what you want to be. This is about you. Pure and simple YOU have to address YOURSELF. Just going around medicating yourself with strange men will not help you.

Please start to refocus this on yourself. Please address YOUR issues. Let your H deal with his.

God Bless,

JL

I AM working on myself. I'm working on NC. Yes, I AM TO BLAME FOR MY EA. How many more ways can I say it??? I am changing my behavior.

We are in MC. We don't go on the pc's unless we are both in the room. He's going to put spyware back on my pc.

2BN-

It sounds like you had several "light-bulb" moments at your marriage seminar. I am glad it had such positive impact on you. It sounds like that experience would be beneficial for many WS's. Maybe if we could look back and objectively "see" a videotape of our marital life it would break down the walls and the "shaded" views of what some of us seem to remember.

I am so happy that your fog has lifted!!! By the way, Happy Anniversary!!!

Sys-

You and your W sound like you're doing wonderfully well, too. As you suggest, my H & I struggle with the conversations, too. Quite frankly, we've given the "deep" talks a bit of a break. For myself, so many weeks of self-analysis has gotten a bit tiring. I have realized that it was a half a year ago that this all started for me. Six months on a rollercoaster of the entire spectrum of emotions. I am now grateful to be feeling practically "normal" these days and able to focus on something beyond myself.

Owl-

My H & I are no longer talking about OM and the EA. We are still working towards concentrating on each other's needs, and we definitely need lots of improvement in that area. He said it has been really helpful to read my posts and know what I'm feeling - although I don't quite understand why he doesn't just ask. I am very open with my feelings and would tell him anything he wants to know. Anyway, if it helps him I'm OK with it. As far as rekindling those old "in-love" feelings, I think that will take a while and some real intensive work. Our M didn't fall apart overnight, it won't be repaired overnight either. I think we both are still adjusting to the idea of the work ahead, but I do believe that this experience has given us both pause to think and recommit in our own minds. We both now KNOW that ignoring our relationship is dangerous. It is good that we recognize not to take M for granted.

Win-

I feel your pain & struggles. I know you are so conflicted, but please try hard on the NC - regardless of what happens with your H you MUST get beyond OM. That part of your life is over, he has moved on, too. Maybe it's time for your own IC to help you. Everyone here believes that you can start the NC, but only YOU can do it. You are addicted like many of us are and have been. We want to see you move past OM. Take it one day at a time, Win.

Cards - It's good to hear from you. It sounds as if you and your H are moving in the right direction with concentrating on meeting each other's needs. You had mentioned that it had been 6 months since this all started for you. Mine is going on 2 years in July from when everything started for me. Sometimes I think about how much time and energy I wasted on the EA's and how I "checked out" of reality for most of that time. I know it has had many effects on our family as a whole that I wish I could go back and erase. But, I really see an improvement recently and especially after this past weekend. My H even has been surprising me by giving me the "words" I want to hear when I'm not expecting it. And the best part about it, is that I can receive them from him now! You are right that our M's won't be repaired overnight, but you and your H are both striving towards recomitting yourselves and really working on communication. I just wanted to encourage you with how things have been going with us and the time I was involved in the A's was much longer. If I would reflect to a year ago, I would never believe that I would have this much love back in our M as we do now. I give all the glory to God for that, because on my own, I could not accomplish that!

Win - Hope you are doing well today. I know you are trying hard with NC and I KNOW you will get through it just like Cards and I have.

Cards-

Very glad to hear that you're doing well!!! It sounds like you and your H are moving forward, which is awesome! Hopefully the 'in love' feelings will come back in time as well. Realize that there is a huge difference between the 'love' that a long time established couple feels and the 'in love' like what you probably felt with your OM.

My wife and I had a rough time for a few hours yesterday. A conversation we had over the phone led to a discussion about the EA, which we really don't talk much about anymore. One thing led to another, and she was very upset. She still feels soooo guilty over the whole thing, and that really prevents her from talking rationally about it at times. But, we calmed down and made up, so it's all good now.

Just remember, everyone....it takes TIME as well as effort to heal things. Like you said Cards...it took a long time for our M's to get to where they were at...so it shouldn't surprise us that it will take a while to get it fixed too!