My H wanted to know certain details, but not ALL details. I guess certain things helped him to understand how far things went.

I seem to be having a problem with verbalizing too much lately. Whatever I'm thinking or whatever the triggers or reminders are, I'll end up saying out loud to my H. For example last night as my H and I were flipping through the channels, the show "Las Vegas" was previewed. I had told my H previously about the OM and his W going to Las Vegas in Oct. for their anniversary, and my H just gave me a look when that show flipped by...thinking that I may be thinking of the OM. I looked at my H and blurted out that the OM liked that tv show. I know I am pushing my H with saying too much lately and I have to learn to keep these reminders inside for my H's sake.

Cards, it's interesting how you continued with everything with even your children and H suspecting just like me. Such an addiction it was! My H walked in on me once as I was typing an email to the OM. He said my face quivered and shook and I didn't know what to do! I'm not very good with hiding things with my facial expressions and he knew something was not right. When I look back and think about all the deception I had going, it sure makes me think what a horrible person I was at the time.

Cards

Obviously I am a "Johhny come lately" so I have only read a few of the replies and a couple of your posts.

When there is a strong emotional attachement it is very difficult to find closure. My A ended in June and there was no contact until the OW e-mailed me in April(this is now a fw years later). I was being "good" but that e-mail popped me right back into the "thick of it", although we only had phone conversations and e-mail.

If you are determined to end the A then that is your "closure". We have all come into our relationships with some kind of "deficiancy". Perhaps your H's is ADD. We have to understand the capabilities and needs of our spouses and they in turn need to recognize ours. We must seek to overcome our shortcomings and to magnify the positive aspects of our personalities. We cannot have perfection. We are imperfect creatures uniting with others that are equally imperfect. Our love and desire is what can make up for what we were not born with.

H

Cards-

My situation was a little different. We all knew my wife chatted with this guy...but she'd actually cut way back on how much time she'd spent actually logged into game, so I'd thought that we were making PROGRESS. Turned out that she'd quit logging into game, because it was easier for them both to sit and chat via IM instead of via the game interfaces. I had thought that they were spending less time together...when it turned out that it was far more, and had spilled over to phone conversations and emails as well.

2BN-

It's NOT that you were a horrible person...you were a very selfish person, but not horrible. And the real trick is to LEARN from the past...that's what I've been working on too. Make sense?

Hiker -



How are you defining closure? Does closure really exist? I think I really have come to the same conclusion you have. No matter what conversation I would have & no matter what things OM would say there would still be the loss of the emotional connection that was. That loss will exist irregardless of the words that are exchanged. So if I am still thinking "foggily", the illusion is that closure will somehow help me get over the attachment, because that's what I so desire. But, by pursuing the closure (with contact) I am really just putting my heart & head back in the EA, right? Easy to understand, hard to apply. ADDICTION.

Hiker, thanks for your post. I have read some of your other posts and appreciate your insights and applaud your recovery.

2BN-If I verbalized every trigger & thought about OM to my H, we would be in a much worse place I believe. For him, every reference seems to be painful (understandably so). I try to put myself in his shoes - I would certainly not want to keep hearing about the woman my H "fell in love" with. I have "tested" these waters and have learned to keep the references to a minimum - only brought up when it can be constructive in our conversations.

I don't exactly understand this, but we (you and I, 2BN) do seem to have the need to talk about OM & the events of the EA. Getting it out here on the MB site does seem to help. Maybe by talking about it, it helps us to process it? I do wonder why I have that need vs. some of the WS that seem to move on and forget (like Owl's W & Sys' W?). Were they less attached? Or just different personalites dealing with it in a different way?

As far as the kids are concerned, I was foggy enough even at that time in the EA to believe in my head that what I was doing was harmless. Fortunately, they didn't realize the implications and just thought it was funny. Once they went back to school after Christmas break they were no longer "exposed" to what I was doing. My H & I believe they are none the wiser to what ensued just a few weeks later. I hope that is the case.

Cards, what you stated is very true. I may have felt like I was getting some closure with the OM with some of the things I learned and words we exchanged, but I'm still left with that loss of the emotional connection I had with him. One of the things we were able to do was ask for forgiveness of each other, and maybe that alone will help me know the rest of my life that he was truly sorry for what we did.

Cards, I don't understand why I feel that I have to "get it all out" too. Am I still focusing too much on it or am I trying to process it? My H wants me to move on from this, but I still feel that I am sorting out all the "whys" of the A. I will keep my thoughts of my triggers inside more for my H. I know it hurts him that I keep verbalizing it all.

Cards-

I'd be very surprised if the kids really are clueless to what's gone on. If you HAVE managed to keep it that way, I must say I'm very impressed with how you and your H handled it then. FAR better than we managed...but there's no way to keep quiet when she moved to the motel and had plane tickets. But then again, my crew is considerably older than your kids as well.

I do think that it's a result of how different personalities handle problems, at least in regards to talking about it or not. I'd also think that your exposure to MB has been a part of your desire to discuss things...whereas my wife and Sys's have NOT wanted to come here and look at how MB suggests that a marriage recover. My wife feels pretty much as though she's past what happened...she's comfortable with the changes we've made in our R, she feels her EN's are being met, and that she's learned enough about boundaries and R stuff now that she'll not fall back into have an A of any kind again. Perhaps for her, THAT is why she's got no further need to talk about it. And in Sys's wife's case, she has yet to SERIOUSLY commit to re-building her R with him (sorry to phrase it like this Sys, but that's what it seems like to me), and so she's not really comfortable talking with him about the A yet either. Just my guess anyway.

Owl,

I'm sure my kids were aware there was some upheaval going on at home, especially the week that H discovered the EA. There were lots of behind doors conversations, they were probably aware of my change in behavior with regards to the depression I was dealing with. But, I am hoping that those strange happenings were just a glitch that they couldn't really put their fingers on. We didn't ever have any discussions with them about what was going on. We tried to keep the household running same as usual.

Regarding the constant discussing of this, I just want to be sure it is constructive to do so, and not further keeping me in the throes of the EA.

Owl, I am curious to know how you benefit from these discussions. Does this help you to understand your W's thinking?

Cards-

Well, I wouldn't be too surprised if your kids figure things out as they get a little older. Kid's are smart, and they learn everything by watching their parents. It's a good bet that they've also pieced out that your 'friend' was part of the problem, since you stopped talking with him around that same time frame. Have a game plan ready with your husband on how to deal with this issue if the kids bring it up is my suggetion.

Not sure which 'discussion' you refer to in your question to me. If you mean 'discussing the A with my wife'...yes, it helps me to understand what her thoughts were at the time. We really don't discuss the A anymore per se...it tends to come up when we're dealing with our teens (they're all older teens) when we're talking about R issues and such. It's easy to use that as an example of how addiction, obsession, opposite sex friends, boundaries with opposite sex friends, etc... all work, and/or can go wrong (or right, when we're using an example of something good that we've done since).

If you're talking about discussions on these boards, I'd say that it sometimes gives me insight to my wife's thoughts, but often I also get a bit of a feeling of satisfaction when I've said or done something that has helped someone else. I feel a little bit like it is a bit of good that came out of what I've gone through...at least I can help someone else a little from that.

And I think that online EA's are pretty misunderstood by a lot of people. Most people can't see the damage from it, unless they've been there.

Don't sweat it Owl, I think the assessment if fair. Although I do beleive she is serious about trying, just cautious at this point. She has told me she is hopeful (but apprehensive) and trying her best to make it work. I have to admit, that although there has been no concise declaration, in deeds and words she is making the effort. It seems to be getting better almost everyday right now. I don't know that she would volunteer a whole lot on her own and I haven't pushed for details. She did actually tell me quite a bit when it all first came out, but we haven't talked about it much since. Anyway, don't mean to hijack the thread.

We have kept it from the kids too, other than maybe them notincing bad moods and tears. But my kids are very young.

One thing that got me incensed in the beginning though was how cavlier my W was about doing this not just to me, but to our family. Felt the same way about the OM, how dare he come into my family and willingly tear it up as though he had some right to it. The utter selfishness and lack of consideration for my kids from both of them really made me angry. Of course, the rationalization was that if she was happy, she would provivde a happy environment for the kids and she was going to be kind enough to allow me to have the kids in my life still. What a good person she was! It was all for the good of the kids! This much she has told me. No thought that destroying me and our relationship would somehow impact the kids. I forgive it now in the name of the "Fog".

Sys-

No apologizing for thread jacking! I am happy for all of us to discuss at the same place.

Your post is along the lines of what I was wondering earlier about discussing all this. How myself & 2BN have this NEED to talk about all these things, and your W's seem to work through it alone. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, but I am envious of those who seem to be able to get through their withdrawal and "see the light" faster. Although I am committed to my M, I am still struggling with doubts about our ability to put it all back together. I believe, for me, that I have to have OM completely out of my mind in order to fully concentrate on my M & H. That's what I think I am doing by expressing here. My concern is that by continuing to post and compare all our stories, is that keeping my thoughts in the EA? Or, is it helping me through the withdrawal by getting it out? I hope that it is helping me to see that it was not about OM, but about our M. Is there a point at which it would be healthier to stop with all this? Although, from reading around on this site, people seem to gain comfort and help for YEARS after the end of their and their WS's A's. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm so sorry, Sys, your whole last paragraph is FOG talk as you know. She was not thinking clearly, logically, or realistically. She was not ABLE to think clearly, logically, or realistically. There are no excuses for the selfish behavior, and it is NOT your fault. It may take some time before she is able to truly be remorseful. She may still be too deep in withdrawal to give you what you need to hear in terms of being sorry and regretful. You have a right to be angry. I am glad things are improving with you and your W. It sounds like you are doing all the right things.

My OM told me, too, that if we (meaning he & I) were happy together our spouses would reap the benefits, too. What a joke, huh?

I don't know if my W just had a different angle on it from the start or what, but upon my "discovery" of the A, the first thing she did was tell me it was the M that was broken, the the OM was just a symptom, not the cause. She knew that much from the beginning. I don't know how to analyze that or what to infer from it. She inssited from the start that I shouldn't worry about the OM, but if I wanted to fix things that I needed to look at myself and the M.

From the start she expressed regret at letting it ever start, and said she felt foolish and guilty.All that said, she still went through a painful withdrawl, complete with slip-ups, rationalization, can we still be friends, the whole nine yards.

So does all of that in the beginning mean she hada leg up on the situation that you didn't -I don't know. Where was your head at at the time the A was exposed?

As for venting here, for me as a BS, this and the other forum probably saved me from destroying my marriage. I found these people in my darkest hour -I had no one to turn to and I found not only good compasionate people, but people who were going through the same thing -sookily similar situations too (Owl?). By having a place to nothing else if vent, I was able to work through a lot of emotional turmoil that I couldn't with my wife or even our MC. So I would say that so long as it's doing you good, stick with it. My guess is that talking about it puts it in better perspective and gives you the perspective of others (I imagine the BS's are good at keeping you honest with yourself).

Cards-

I think your point is a good one. I wonder if coming back to these boards does me more harm than good, that they're preventing me from letting go of the past.

I would like to make this suggestion, at least for the four of us that have been using this particular thread...why don't all four of us give our best effort to stop posting (and thinking) about the past...and start making the focus of our posts here about the future. What we're doing now to make things better, or what we've got planned to help our spouses and ourselves.

I've got a couple of trigger events coming up. I've made a CHOICE...I'm not going to go to these events thinking about the past...I'm going to go to them and enjoy how good they are today!! No thinking about what happened this time last year....I'm going to focus on what's going no THIS year!

Cards, 2BN, Sys...what are your thoughts?

I think it's a capital idea my good man! I for one have been living under the philosophy that I can live my life as if my marriage were going to fail, or I could live it assuming things are going to bet better -better even than it ever was. So I choose to assume that things are going to get better in the end.

So the immediate future: Of course the next big event is Mother's Day. My wife always wants to do the same ting each mother's day -go to the zoo with the kids. So we will be doing that. Beyond that my eldest daughter and I have conspired to put together a suprise picnic for her. I bought a really nice classic picnic basket complete with blanket and tbleware. I'll be preparing a semi-gourmet picnic for us to enjoy at the zoo. My plan is pamper the heck out of her for that weekend, and just having a really nice family weekend. Nothing miraculous I know, but for us, family events in the past were often triggers for the appearance of my over-stressed Mr. Hyde persona (a major contributor to problems in the marriage). Now I've really gotten a handle on that and am doing my best to provide really great quality family time.

Good morning everyone!

Owl, I was able to read your post and suggestion yesterday but had no time to reply until now. I think your suggestion is good, but I also know for me that sometimes I do have to look back to figure out how to move forward. Does that make sense? Maybe as you suggest, we should have the primary focus about the future though.

One of the main things I think about by looking back is how one day in my life and that decision I made that particular day affected me for the next 1 1/2 years. I want to prevent that from ever happening again and to learn from that. That one decision was to keep an email that I received from the first OM a secret from my husband. I was intrigued that this man looked for me after 24 years, and I knew that day, if I told my husband I would not be able to find out about this man from my past. If I would have thought smart, I would have told my husband, and then none of this would have happened to me with that first OM and then the 2nd OM. I would have never talked to the 2nd OM. The only reason I talked to the 2nd OM and he became the 2nd OM was because he helped me with the first OM. What a mess I was and never want that again!

Now moving forward. Sys - you have some great ideas for Mother's Day weekend! You have things so planned out already and I'm sure she will be very grateful.

We have our 19th anniversary coming up in a few weeks. I want it to be special, but it is also such a busy time of the year for us. We won't even be able to be together on our anniversary to do something. I do hope my H will plan something for us, but I don't want to be disappointed if he doesn't. We do have an awesome family vacation planned to New York City in June and we are all looking forward to that time together!

2BN-

I can see your point, but instead of dwelling on that day, wouldn't it be better to look at it and understand what motivated you to make the choice to hide that email and decide if you've made the changes you need to in yourself and in your marriage so that if you received a similar email from someone you'd do the right thing this time?

I do hope that you and your husband can make this anniversary a special one for the both of you...because while you've had some rough times, hopefully you're in a better position now in how you both relate and feel for each other than you've been in years...at least, that's how my wife and I felt when we celebrated our first anniversary after d-day.

LOL...talking about a good comparison between how it was and how it is...this morning we saw previews for a show that we wanted to watch...my wife looks at me and says "Looks like some prime snuggle time on the couch to me!". A year ago, it wouldn't have mattered...she would have watched it from her computer chair and it wouldn't have been 'shared'. But today, I've got something to look forward to this evening!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Speaking of anniversaries -we have our 10th coming up in September and I'm not sure yet how we will handle it. I know that some of my family want a big celebration for us. It isn't for some time yet, and as well as things are going now, I don't care to predict where we will be 5 months from now. I sort of have this irrational goal that our anniversary will be a time for recomitting ourselves, not a charade. So I'm partly looking forward to it and partly dreading it.

On another topic, I had a pretty deep IM conversation with my wife this morning -sometimes we just end up talking that way. I got a lot of insight to where her head is at. The pertinant details are: she doesn't want to hurt me anymore, she wants it too work out between us, and she's afraid to hope too much. I think we have that in common. I am scared to death at the prospect of this not working out -there's a lot on the line and so hoping too much seems like a set-up for devastation if it doesn't work out.But how can we succeed if we don't take that leap of faith?

The other area that came up is that she is still very hesitant about physical affection (we're talking hugs and kisses at this point). She said she felt like she didn't want to make a promise she couldn't keep -ie physical affection without having the emotional currency to back it up I guess. But at the same time she didn't want to discourage me from expressing myself that way. We'll see where it goes I guess.

Sigh

But I'm not giving up.

Owl, I believe I would never do that again. If I think back to that day, I can still vividly remember reading the email and questioning myself what I was going to do with it. I waited a day to respond and even wrote an email to where this man knew I was happily married and that my life was going well. I never imagined that it would go where it went and even continuing on to a 2nd A. I thought I could take care of it on my own, and that was where I made my mistake. What I realize now, is that once the secrecy started, it was hard to break. It's not that I think of just that one day, but I think of how everything built upon that first secret I started.

Owl, how long after D-Day was your anniversary? And was it you that took the initiative to celebrate or your wife?

Sys, it sounds like your W is opening up even if she admits that she's afraid to hope too much. It can be overwhelming to think how a M can be better from where it was, but it seems like it takes these little steps of opening up and working together toward recovery and a better M.

2BN-
Our anniversary was about 5 months after d-day. And the choice on how to celebrate our anniversary was a joint one...I've mentioned a book several times in this thread that we used to help us a lot...and in it, it talks about celebrating the "Top 5"...Christmas, Birthdays, Mother's Day, Father's Day, and anniversary. So we wanted to make sure that we did make it a good occasion. We celebrated it by completely redoing our bedroom over that weekend. We bought a chandelier/candelabra, and a ton of new stuff for it and completely made it into a new room.

You know, I have wondered to myself a few times exactly where that 'point of no return' was with my wife...she says she can't remember that there was one, but my thoughts are that she either chooses not to think about it, or doesn't want to hurt me by talking about it. Either way, it's not a big enough issue for me to press for more on.

Sys-

Don't panic yet my friend. She's talking with you about how and what she's feeling...that's a huge first step, trust me. You'll find that this is how the real healing will begin...the talks may not be comfortable, but they should be open and honest. The more you're willing to show her that you ARE interested in rebuilding your marriage, and that she's not going to be beat up for the rest of her life over what happened, the more comfortable she'll get with talking with you. And that should lead to the return of her feelings for you...after all, it was that talking that lead to feelings with the OM as well. THIS is how it works.

So keep talking, don't bite her head off, and just wait to see what happens.

Owl, what was the name of that book again?

I like the idea making a joint effort to plan our anniversary. We haven't even talked about it yet. There is so much going on around that date with our daughter graduating high school and with my H's job. Our focus seems to be on those things and not our anniversary right now. Even if we don't get to celebrate on the "day", we can still plan something.

As far as a 'point of no return', I think it was the choice I made to keep it secret. Once I started the secret, it was easy for me to continue with more secrets. There was a very defining moment to all of this for me with that first email I received. For your W it is most likely different since she had already been talking to this OM on the games.
Just like the 2nd OM for me. It happened so gradual and slowly that I cannot say when I first started to have "feelings" for him. I know when we exposed our "feelings", but I cannot define the day I started to have them.

"20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage", by Dr Steve Stephens.