Cards,

OM and I are both Christians as well. His W is a Christian but not the kind of Christian W he desires and that is what drew him to me. He saw in me the Christian wife he wanted! Then we do what we did? It's very hard to think that we compromised everything! Thanks for reading my thread. I feel better in some ways today.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cardsonly:


I did pray for OM and his family & M, especially at the time when we were discovered. OM is Christian, as I am, and we struggled with the paradox of it all.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it helps Christians stay 'real' to call something that is a sin, a sin .... not a 'paradox'.

You struggle with sin. There is no paradox contradiction. Sin is always something pleasurable. If you commit a sin, call it sin. There is hypocrisy in calling a sin a paradox.

Pep

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hhmmm. There is no denial that the EA was sinful and wrong.

We struggled with the paradox within ourselves - that each of us, God-fearing, Christian people were drawn to each other and formed a relationship. The fact that we acted totally against our values is the paradox. I was not referring to the EA as a paradox.

Cardsonly –

Just some food for thought - Immediately after d-day, my pastor (also our MC) suggested that I not even pray for FOM, because that kept my thoughts on FOM. Our feelings follow where our thoughts go. So, the theory is that if we change our thoughts, our feelings will change.

I vehemently disagreed with the pastor during those first few weeks, didn’t believe him, and I thought he was terribly mean. As time went by, though, (it’s 2 ½ years later now), I discovered that the theory really works.

Change your thoughts, and your feelings will change. We can’t change our feelings, but we can change our thoughts. It takes determination and time, but it is possible. You can’t help it if you have a trigger (see a car like his, whatever), but you can stop yourself from dwelling on it and letting your thoughts go further on the subject. Tell yourself, “Don’t go there!”

After I would have a trigger, and felt awful, I would ask myself, “How much of this am I doing on purpose?” When I was honest with myself, I discovered I could save myself a lot of heartache by changing where I let my thoughts go.

“Still hard to think of NEVER talking again to a person who meant so much and had so much impact.”

When enough time goes by with NC (including not dwelling on thoughts of OM), you will be surprised that even the above feeling changes. As the “fog lifts,” reality sets in and you will be able to see the A and OM more clearly for what they really were. It’s easier to recognize and admit the OM’s flaws, and believe it or not, he can actually lose his appeal.

I know what it’s like to want to stop thinking about OM and feeling like I wasn’t able to, but the good news is, I learned I really was able to. I would ask myself “Do you control your thoughts, or do your thoughts control you?” I wanted to be in control of my thoughts, not vice versa.

In no way am I trying to say it’s not hard to break old habits. I know how hard it is. Anyhow, hang in there. You’re doing great so far.

God bless,

Rose

Rose-

Thank you for your post. I SO want to get to that point of being able to look back and laugh (?), or at least look back and wonder how I could've been so stupid. I guess every step of the way there is a new challenge - now it's controlling my thoughts. The last few weeks it was stopping myself from contact. It certainly makes sense that any thoughts of OM (even praying) just puts him in the mind. I actually have not been doing that recently for him, more for strength for myself and my M.

Thank you!

cardsonly,

You're welcome. Glad if my post can help. I know it's a tough road, but at least we keep walking down it instead of turning around and going back!

God bless,

Rose

Cards-

Maybe this will help you gain some perspective.

One year ago TODAY, my wife was just getting serious in her online affair. She was IMing her OM, and playing together with him online. Her withdraw from me at that time was tremendous. She absolutely felt like she was "falling out of love with (me), and more and more in love with (him)".

When I finally caught on, and her affair ended, she felt very much like you do right now. Her world had ended. She didn't see how she could ever love me again. (and while she wouldn't admit it then, she also couldn't see how I could ever love HER, after what she'd done). She had thoughts of him EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Fast forward one year, please.....

We just had one seriously awesome weekend. I took her on a surprise date. From there, we ended up spending the whole day (and most of the nite) together doing things with just the two of us. We went shopping, and walking. We shared the most romantic dinner either of us have EVER had!!! Our date started at noon on Saturday...it ended when we finally got back to the house 11 that nite. Our kids (all older teens) couldn't believe that we did that! Hehehe

What a change. What a tremendous difference in BOTH of us from a year ago.

You CAN do this too. What you are feeling does NOT have to be how you'll feel for the rest of your life. You can make it through this...and so can your marriage. Your husband sounds like an awesome man...start trying to concentrate on THAT when thoughts of the OM cross your mind. Start looking for the needs he was meeting...and start working with your husband and let him know what they are...so that HE can meet them for you.

Good luck, and hang in there.

Hey Cards,
You're doing so well in the process......you're beating it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

All the things you are feeling are so normal. Time does heal. You've chosen a wonderful path though, and I am rooting for you. You've been very strong in controlling your actions at a time your feelings were telling you to do something else. Feel proud of yourself for that, o.k.?? Take strength from your strength. You're choosing to be married. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's cool to hear you speak of "what now?". My vote is to invest energy into your M now. As your thoughts and energies turn there, so will your heart soon follow. I'm thinking of setting up an appointment with Harley in the counseling center here. In fact, I'm sure I'm going to.

More time invested with H, the better I'm feeling. Good story -- Yesterday we went out on a date and he had a bottle of wine in the back seat of the car, in a picnic basket along with strawberries and cheese. Yum! Anyway, we stopped alongside the road in a picnic area. We went up to the top of a little hill. The year before, wildfires swept through Southern Cal here and this area we were in was burnt to a crisp. Now it's regrowing and grass is coming up and the trees are amazingly recovering.

Drank the wine, gotta a little tipsy and flirty (WOO HOO), smooched and well...aahh....ok let's not go there in a public forum. Anyway, we are walking back to the car and he points to a blue glass shard in the ground and tells me he thinks there is probably buried treasure underneath that. Yeah right, let's go. But he starts to dig. He digs up a letter in a plastic baggy. It was from him to me. He had gone up there the week before and planted it. It was a lovely letter to me, expressing how glad he was to have me back and how much he loves me.

Is that great, or what??!! Before all this bad stuff happened with the A, he never did anything like that. Well, from the ashes of the bonfire of my huge mistake, will come regrowth. It just takes time, patience and investment. I struggle too, but starting here on week 10: Things are so much better than before.

Hang in there Cards. You aren't that far behind me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Suzet,

Great poem. Puts things in perspective.

--win

Gentlsoul, you are amazing that you can be so supportive with only a few more weeks under your belt than me. You're advice has been unwavering, and certainly you needed help even as you were helping others. I am so happy for you and your H and your recovery together. I know you had some rough days last week, so I hope you read the post that Suzet put on the thread early this morning. That was helpful to me, maybe it will help you too.

Owl, you are amazing, too. How can you be so understanding when you were the victim of this type of A? You have been through a lot, as you said. Your wife is lucky that you have worked so hard for your M. The fact that you can be encouraging and nonjudgmental is awesome. I only hope that you have found something here that has been helpful to you, too.

I am trying so hard to look down the road & see how this experience may possibly end up saving our marriage. If we had continued as we had for the last few years, not putting anything into it, we may not have been able to salvage it. What a wake-up call.

I apologized to my H again today for the pain & hurt I caused him. He is so forgiving, but almost too forgiving. He doesn't seem to want to go over it again. He keeps telling me to not worry about it, as he feels he has put me through a lot, too (not A's, other stresses & hardships). I am thankful that he is still trusting me.

Again, thank you both & others who have not been judgmental.

Cardsonly and win bin,

I’m glad the ‘poem’ I posted yesterday was helpful to you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Also, please take a look at this thread I started today. It's guidelines to help FWS's get through withdrawal. You will find it helpful and you're welcome to post your thoughts on that thread.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Hello Cardsonly, ConfusedLady, Gentlesoul, Luv2B, Owl, WinBin, 2BNormal, Rose, Suzet and everyone else posting on this thread or even if you are reading only.

I am SO PROUD of all of you at the progress you have made in these past couple weeks.
Also I KNOW what a daily STUGGLE it is for you to stay in NC.

I just wanted you to know I am still reading this thread along with several others. (This is the only one I have ever posted on.)

Although I am still emailing with my widowed OM, I hope and pray that someday soon, I will have the strength to join all of you in NC. I am not at all there yet.

It seems to make such a difference when our H knows. When it is still a 'secret' it is so hard to STOP. The WILL TO STOP is just not there. YET!

I was watching a movie Saturday "Walk on the Moon" about a lady that was having an affair. This line stood out: "It is easy to be different with someone different."

Everyone of us having or having had on-line romances (or hands on affairs or EA) understand EXACTLY what that lady meant, true? We become no longer just wives and mothers (I'm also a grandma) and helpers in church and the community but a desirable woman.Sometimes after many years of marriage, we don't feel that romantic feeling anymore and when we do it is just SO EXCITING.

And yes, some of us tend to go off the deep end with this affection and attention from another man other than our H. We go GAA GAA. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It is easy to get caught in the WEB.

Another important line from the movie was she was talking to her good hard working husband and said: "You do not deserve to be hurt."
THAT IS SO TRUE.

Our H's do not deserve this Hurt whatsoever. It is entirely our choice, our decision, our own Selfish desires, needs and wants for something or someone DIFFERENT to pay attention to us!
It is NOT because something is missing or lacking in our H but in ourselves.

I had an idea yesterday. I searched in the back of the closet and brought out a box of love letters my H and I had written one another when we were dating. I was 17, he was 19. I was amazed at the loving words and feelings.
(We was married at 18 (me) and 20 (H), 30 years ago.)

I would suggest if any of you have any of these old love letters stored away, get them out and re-read them.

My first exciting love for my H was felt in my heart as I read those letters and remembered our early romance.

Just me, Mary.

Ok I'm sure I will offend many with my post today, but I think it needs to be said.

The destruction of a marriage is not solely the fault of the WS. Believe it or not WS have been hurt as well, sometimes for years prior to any EA or A. And some BS can hide behind playing the victim and not taking responsibility for their part in the problems of M. It takes two people to be happy and in love in a marriage. And sometimes the BS never asks forgiveness for the pain and suffering that they have caused. I have many people who support and understand why I would want to end my marriage. They all know H and how he can be.

Its easy to jump on the WS and start name calling, but did you ever think they might have been in pain for a long time too? Finding attraction to someone who meets your needs is very easy to do. I'm not defending the WS actions, I'm just saying many BS seem to love to jump on them as the problem. An A is a symptom of a long standing problem in the M. They even say that in the book.

I think the MB is here to support people who are dealing with both ends of a marriage in trouble. People have feelings and they sometimes overtake you. And some marriages were dead before the A started.

It's great that everyone is doing well on this thread with NC. It certainly isn't an easy thing. But that's only step 1. The rest has to come from BS and WS together. I hope everyone can accomplish what needs to be done to work for a stronger marriage.

-win

Hi winbin,

I’m not offended by your post, and I understand what you mean. But, although I know you wrote that you aren’t trying to defend the behavior, I’m afraid that no matter how it’s worded, pointing out our BS’s mistakes in our M’s sounds like an attempt to defend our behavior.

It’s true that both S’s need to re-evaluate the way they treat each other, and both need to forgive each other for past hurts. However, one of the main things we as WS’s did wrong was to turn to someone outside our M instead of first working on the M or getting D. To me it seems that an M isn’t dead until D.

I don’t think either side can get well until we stop blaming the other side for what happened. I do believe that it’s impossible to salvage an M unless both S’s forgive each other for the past, and make an effort to move forward by starting over with a new M and better ways of treating each other. That takes a lot of soul searching, forgiveness, studying, MC, etc.

God bless –

Rose

Hi Win Bin,
Yep, there are plenty of marriages that are unhappy. Where one spouse or the other, or both are not doing their part in the M...abusive, uncaring, thoughtless, you name it.

When you are in that kind of M, the unhappy spouse has the responsibility to address their unhappiness - speak to the offending spouse about change, work on recovery, or maybe even leave the marriage and get a divorce after trying everythinig you can to fix it. Maybe you recognize your unhappiness but don't want to leave for various reasons (religious, lazy, children), whatever. It's a choice to be M or not and, unless there is an open marriage where both spouses agree to see other people, the M is supposed to be monogomous.

What is not healthy for anyone, including the unhappy spouse, is to have a secret A and pretend you can live with an unhappy marriage. It doesn't work and it isn't fair to an unknowing spouse, who thinks marriage is monogomous.

So, my humble opinion today is: if the M is unhappy, deal with that directly and not find solace in another relationship on the side in a secretive manner behind the spouse's back. Unhappy marriages only get better with work and change in behavior. Communication needs to take place and a commitment to change where necessary.

Hope this makes sense. I've had too much coffee today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by win bin:
Ok I'm sure I will offend many with my post today, but I think it needs to be said. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are not offensive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The destruction of a marriage is not solely the fault of the WS.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true.

And it takes integrity to properly deal with a marriage gone wrong.

Having an affair is a way of coping with an unhappy marriage that lowers one's integrity.

It's not OK, no matter what.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe it or not WS have been hurt as well, sometimes for years prior to any EA or A.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Hurt is universal. Why deal with hurt by ADDING another problem to the pile?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And some BS can hide behind playing the victim and not taking responsibility for their part in the problems of M.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is true.

But an affair is still a non-solution and an affair is without integrity ... is never a way of dealing with the actual problem.... the marriage..

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It takes two people to be happy and in love in a marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And sometimes the BS never asks forgiveness for the pain and suffering that they have caused.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Especially if the spouse runs away to fantasy-land of an extra-marital affair instead of standing her ground and solving the marriage problem or leaving the marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have many people who support and understand why I would want to end my marriage. They all know H and how he can be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This does not matter once YOU have decided to behave without integrity yourself !!

Once you are in an affair, you have lost yourself, your center, your core.

Happy people don't have affairs. Neither do spiritually healthy people.

The affair makes you sicker. Not healthier.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its easy to jump on the WS and start name calling, but did you ever think they might have been in pain for a long time too?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An affair is not medicine for pain.An affair is poison .... spiritual poison.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Finding attraction to someone who meets your needs is very easy to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes .. it takes intact boundaries and a functioning moral code to protect ourselves from damaging ourselves by having an affair.

Attraction is easy. Faithfulness is a challenge.

The affair damages THE AFFAIREE the most! It is a blow to someone's spiritual wellness to sneak around and have a secret life the family is unaware of.

Being a sneaky adulterous liar is robbing one's self of their best self.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not defending the WS actions, I'm just saying many BS seem to love to jump on them as the problem.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The WS IS the problem ---> while the affair continues.

When the affair ends ---> the marriage is the problem.

There is no way to say the one having the affair is doing whatever is necessary to help the marriage. No way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An A is a symptom of a long standing problem in the M. They even say that in the book.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A symptom but also a behavior ---> that is very very damaging and needs to be stopped.

Until you stop your affair 100% you have no moral high ground to stand on and say "I am trying to work on the marriage problems." Being actively in an affair and working on the marriage are incompatable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the MB is here to support people who are dealing with both ends of a marriage in trouble.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

"Stop your affair." <--- That's saying something VERY supportive!

"You will be in a better position if you stop the affair." <--- That's saying something very supportive.

"An affair kills your spiritual center." <--- That's saying something supportive.

"Being a liar and a cheat cannot be a good thing for you." <--- That's saying something supportive.

"An affair is a dishonest response to a real life problem." <--- That's saying something supportive.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People have feelings and they sometimes overtake you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People also have values, and morals, and decency, and ethics to hold ourselves back when feeling threaten to overtake us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And some marriages were dead before the A started.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And if that is the case, the affair then killed the person's values and morals as well. Sound good to you? A dead marriage ~and~ ruined values.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's great that everyone is doing well on this thread with NC. It certainly isn't an easy thing. But that's only step 1. The rest has to come from BS and WS together. I hope everyone can accomplish what needs to be done to work for a stronger marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's all about being responsible for your own choices.

If I choose to lie to my husband, and to cheat on him, it is because it was something I decided to do. If I choose to de-value my own spiritual, moral, ethical core .... then the responsibility is mine. Not my husbands ... no matter what he treated me like ...

If you want to be a kick-[censored] empowered woman, walk in the truth, accept responsibility for you decisions with no excuses... no one makes us do wrong things but ourselves. You can have an authentic life only when you speak the truth , and behave in ways that honor yourself.

Pep

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

okay--I think you missed my point. I was NOT justifying A's. I was merely saying that calling WS's names on MB does not help and support them in ending their affairs.

Also most people don't go out and decide to have an affairs. The can decide to end them and save their marriage, which is what people are doing here, correct?

Eh whatever-Im out.

My hub has posted the whole story if you want to read his post. However I have ended the EA. It's under this topic.

My Wife Hates Me...Help!

You're right. Both spouses are responsible for making a marriage work...one cannot do it alone. You know where I came from - I had an A and so who am I to judge anyone? I believe you when you say your M had problems.

I just hope the only message you get from me is this: After an A is over and NC is in full effect, sorting out how you really feel about a M takes a lot of time.

Your EA ended really just a few days ago, and you're probably angry and upset and going through withdrawls. During these next few weeks, the H usually looks like the bad guy. It's just really too soon to objectively make conclusions now though.

I sensed from Bassist's post that he feels you're angry with him. Let the NC do it's work for awhile though and hang in there. If you get through the withdrawls, the anger and bitterness dies down. It gets better if you give it a chance. I feel a whole lot different about my M here in March than I did in January. I wouldn't have believed it until I experienced that change myself.
GS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by win bin:
I was merely saying that calling WS's names on MB does not help and support them in ending their affairs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I think you are refering to the SSOM thread, aren't you? That guy was probably a troll, looking to stir up controversy. He was not sincerely seeking help for his own marriage, like you are .... a huge distinction.

I know that you are probably sensitive to name-calling (even of others) .... and the reason I think you are so sensitive is that your self-esteem has beeen damaged by your own actions.

An affair damages a good person's self esteem because a good person, when doing something he/she views as low ... has to work really hard to come to grips with himself/herself that the reasons they acted in such a low manner was somehow reasonable.

The problem with this sort of justification is that it stalls personal recovery. Statements such as: ---> "What I did wasn't so bad. I had good reasons. I did these bad things because I was treated so badly." ... ~~~screech~~~~ the brakes have just been applied to the personal recovery momentum.

No one here (except perhaps the most raw newbies, or the chronically neurotic angry) thinks anyone who is willing to have NC and put forward their best effort in their marriage is a bad person. THAT willing person is

brave
admirable
strong
good
worthy

YOU are such a person.

The OP (unmarried) who comes to MB to ask questions about how to woo a wife away from a her husband, is seriously on the wrong site! And his/her reception is luke warm at best, and downright icy after awhile. Why? because their posts do damage to the freshly wounded. There is no welcome mat here for such a poster, they are not helpful, they are in fact hurtful.

YOU, on the other hand, are also freshly wounded. Your struggle is a noble one.

Keep your head high. Love yourself enough to be honest and truthful ---> first with yourself ... then with others.

And don't forget this --->
Your feelings, while important, sometimes hijack your other important personal character traits. Feelings have no morality. There is no judging feelings. Feelings do not require an automatic action ... without first consulting the other parts of yourself ... to see if acting on the feeling is actually in your best long-term interest. See if acting on the feeling alligns with your moral compass.

You ARE respected for your most excellent efforts so far! I (MB) value you so much.

Take care.

Pep