Owl - I don't think I've ever posted to you before - Hi!

While I understand your W (or anyone) needing space, are you not going to IM her at all, or just not as much? If you feel uncomfortable with the situation now, it's not POJA.

My pastor encouraged my H and I to communicate often, and even recommended spending the extra money on cell phones (we didn't have any at the time) so we could contact each other at any time. What worked for us is that we set a time that was most convenient for both of us to talk to each other at least once a day during the week (right before lunch has worked out pretty well).

There are days that it's not possible, or that the time has to be changed, or that we e-mail each other instead, but it is nice to have a time to check in with each other, even if it's a very brief conversation.

Just a thought.

God bless,

Rose

Well, as far as IMing I'm not sure what kind of balance she wants. When we discussed this in counseling, she made it seem like I had her chained to the computer all day long, which of course is not what I felt was happening.

Today is my first day back to work...and she IM'ed me like normal as I arrived at work. We talked briefly...2 or 3 interchanges, and that's been it. I'm not going to IM her at all unless she starts it is how I'm going about it. She can also call me anytime she needs via my cell phone.

As far as whether or not this meets PoJA, well we've never actually used and MB based counselling. Our MC is familiar with the basic concepts, and does agree with most of the princples, but it's not the center that he uses to base his counseling on.

I guess that this just feels like we're not moving forward, more like moving apart. Now we'll see how it pans out as we try to actually implement this over the next few weeks and see if it IS something that I can get comfortable with. I can understand wanting to have space and while we're both feeling a little different about what's comfortable I'm willing to try it. I just hope that this doesn't come back to hurt us later.

Hey Owl,
I can understand how this feels like a pulling apart, but maybe your W still does feel like the IMing is babysitting. If you recall, my W told me the same a while back, before we were anywhere near where we are now. As far down the road as you are now, does it make senece to let go a bit? I know my W felt like she couldn't take a nap, or watch TV or even go out and work in the garden without me getting panicky -could your wife still feel that way? I know you've said that she has said "this is never going to end" a few times -seems to me that she is still feeling like she's on probation.

Out situations are similar in their circumstances, but it seems that in terms of timelines we have different results. At this point, I know my W is 100% with me now and oddly enough, the trust and the confidence in "us" has soared in the last few weeks (maybe it was the miraculous timing of everything clicking into place on the first day of my 2 week vacation -we got 2 weeks of 24-7 time to really mend the fences). We've been IMing today (my first day back), but I'm not feeling nearly the dependence on it that I did even 2 weeks ago. Actually for quite some time, it's just been a pleasant way to stay in touch, to let each other know how things are going.

Anyway, I say give her the space and see if you are still "feeling the love". That's what really counts.

On another front, the OM is STILL calling. First my W told him through a mutual friend that she didn't want to talk to him (twice) he called again, she sent him a thoughtful, clear, e-mail telling him it was over and that she didn't want to talk to him and yet he still called today (she was monitoring phone calls b/c she feared he might call -it's Tuesday after all -now she gets to dread Tuesdays <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ). He left a message saying he needed closure -whatever that means. So she contacted their mutual friend again and asked her to relay the message once again that she never wanted to hear from him again. At first I almost liked the way she would reject him each time he called, but now it's getting to the level of harrassmanet and I don't like it.

Hopefully she won't feel pressed into giving him "closure". I fear what kind of crap he might try -obviously he's not dealing well. She told me at one point he was convinced that if they went NC that I would brainwash her. He's probably thinking he can deprogram her -that or he's being a "big" man and he's going to make some big production over how he wishes her the best. I understand how he feels -I felt the same 5 months ago when I thought I'd lost her for good, but I can't say I feel all that sorry for him. Ia m confident though that my W is handling this well and will continue to do so. Just sucks to have to put up with this guy calling.

Hmmm....have you considered calling him yourself, Sys?

I know that if OM in our case called, I'd probably chew his head off myself.

I'd also see about blocking his phone, and his emails. If it comes down to it, I'd bet it would be worth whatever the cost to change her number too.

It's great that your wife is finally back with you bro. I know what that's like.

In my case, I don't think she feels like she's on probation, or like I'm watching her every move. It's just that she'd like to have more space of her own...remember too that she's got four teens at home right now too. And so I'm trying to take that attitude and give her the space she needs.

Ever watch two people from different nationalities carry on a conversation? People with different expectations of 'personal space'? It's hilarious...I watched a German and an American move all the way across a room without eithe of them knowing that they were doing it...the German felt that the American was too far away for a normal conversation, so kept stepping closer. The American felt his was too close for personal comfort, so kept stepping back. It kept up until they hit a wall...quite funny to watch when you realize what's happening.

I just need to let her step back a step and not move forward. And let us both adjust to the new space.

Yeah, if this continues, I do feel like I should call him -but I want to clear it with the W first -she may be done with him, but I think she may have a bad reaction if I were to jump him without telling her about it first. Believe me, I would LOVE to get to "talk" to the guy. But I fear that it's more in the spirit of retribution than taking a constructive step toward getting him out of our lives.

Sounds like you have a good handle on your situation. We have a similar situation in that we have 2 young girls who love to hang on my W all day (one is still nursing from time to time even) so she is pretty "touched-out" by the time I get home -something we both need to be aware of. We ran into some of that on the vacation, we were reconciling our butts off, yet I needed to be aware of when not to jump into her physical space b/c the kids had burned her out. What she really wants is adult company and help with the kids -so that's what I endeavor to provide.

Absolutely talk with your wife before you do anything dealing with the OM...should go a long ways in avoiding issues in the future.

We'll see what happens in my situation. I'm going to back off, and let her start coming to me when she wants attention. It's probably the smartest thing to do anyway...I feel like I've carried the burden of all the reconciliation work myself anyway, and I'm just too tired to keep doing it all myself.

Sys - I agree with Owl regarding the OM. Either change the phone # or call the OM yourself.

After the very last contact the OM had with me, my H decided to call the OM himself. My H told me ahead of time that he was going to do this and I agreed. It seemed to work best, however, the OM in my situation wasn't being a pest with calling every week. The OM in your situation really NEEDS to get the message from either you or by changing the phone #, because what your W has tried is obviously not working. He may continue with the calls in the hopes of your W giving in.

I know exactly how you feel Owl, I was getting so exhausted before things finally came together for us. Now though it's like a switch flipped. She says "I love you" not as a responce to me saying it first, but says it first. She reaches out to hold my hand, she caresses me, she kisses me all on her own and it is glorious. Might be a good idea to back up a bit and let your wife come to you -it will make you feel great when she does -but don't worry when she doesn't -it's probably nothing.

quick update:W's mutual friend talked to OM and got him to delete W's email and phone number so he wouldn't be tempted. She's taking care of him and his issues. Pretty sure that will be the end of it. I understand where he is coming from -he's hurt and has some things he needs to say, but my W doesn't need to hear. I just wish he had come to this conclusion earlier. I guess he held on for the whole 3 months of NC. I kind of feel sorry for him to tell the truth. As happy as I am, he must be deeply saddened. We've come full circle I guess, I went from being unloved and rejected to loved and he has gone the other way. I know how he feels -and it sucks. I just hope we ALL learned from this.

Now that you mention it, I'm NOT surprised that he's started trying to contact her...I'd forgotten about the 3 month timeframe!

Undoubtedly that was the case...he was holding on, hoping that she WOULD come back to him after that three months was up. Realize that it is a little different for him...he doesn't have someone supporting and loving him like your wife does. Not that I'm trying to defend him...just seeing his viewpoint...odds are he had serious hopes that your M would fail and that she would return to him.

Sounds to me like the two of you have come up with a good plan for dealing with the situation, Sys. Glad to hear that!! Isn't it amazing how awesome things are when they finally turn around?

On my side, my wife seems to appreciate the space I'm giving her. She has made more effort to be loving when I am home, and to show me that she loves me. And I'm sticking to my side of things...haven't IM'ed or called, no pressure for her to do anything as far as that kind of thing goes.

Hope things are going well for 2BN and Cards...haven't heard from ya'll much lately!

Sys - As Owl stated, it all does make sense about the contact now that you mentioned the 3 month NC. I had forgotten about that as well! It sounds like things being handled well now with your update. Glad to hear that things are going so well with you and your W!

Owl - It sounds like things are going well with the space that your W wants. How are you feeling about it? You sound better and more confident today about it than you did previously.

I really haven't had much to post lately. We are doing well and it's strange that after everything I wrote about last week about my H wanting me to hold things in....now he seems to be talking ALOT about the OM and the EA. He drove me into work this morning and the whole drive (about 20 min.) was talking about the OM (both of them!). We have been discussing lately about how I view things differently now vs. back when I was in withdrawal. They have been productive conversations I feel in helping me see some things.

We are getting ready to leave this weekend for our trip to visit my family for a week. I'm looking forward to getting away!

2B

I know from my perspective, early on, I didn't even want to here OM's name -it was just too upsetting and in the early days, it was always in the context of how much better he was than me and how she loved him and what her plans with him would be -ick.

Now though, secure in the sense that he is out of her life, we talk about him quite freely. Not often, but with these phone calls and such, we really can't avoid him as a topic of discussion.

Perhaps your H's willingness to talk about it now is an indication that he is feeling more secure in your relationship?

Regardless, I think it's a good sign.

Sys - You are probably right about my H and him feeling more secure. He does help me to see and realize that the OM (both) were not such great guys! And I do see how my H is such a wonderfully committed man to me an our marriage!

Well, in truth I'm not really feeling much more confidant in things, but I'm going to do my best to support this and make it work...it wouldn't be the first time that Mrs Owl has made a suggestion that worked out for the better.

I'm just making the best of it that I can.

2BN, I'm glad to hear that things are going so well for you too. OM does occasionally come up in our conversations even now...he's not a 'taboo' subject. The other day a song came on the radio, and she says "I love this song!", and turns it up. I laughed, and we both sang it together...and when it was done, I asked if she remembered what she'd said about it in the past. She paused for a minute and said "Oh...". It was a song that she had listened to right after the end of the EA and when she was getting ready to seperate with me...it was one that she'd said described what OM and I both felt about her. I reassured her that it was fine, because I heard that particular song many times over the last several months, and it didn't carry the hurt anymore.

Its funny how a lot of little things will make ME think of the affair and OM...but I don't think that it happens nearly as often to her as she's really wanted to forget the whole thing. And even when I do think of that stuff, it's not the crushing hurt that it used to be. Now its a lot more distant and easier to handle.

I think that your H is likely getting closer to that kind of point as well.

One interesting observation. Now that my W and I are back on track, we are much more demonstably affectionate with each other -like we haven't been in years. It seems that our 5 y.o. is a bit jealous. She says as much and isn't thrilled to see mommy and daddy paying attention too each other when they could be paying attention to her! I don't think she saw this kind of mutual affection between us in her lifetime! LOL. Not a big deal, but it's a sure sign that things have changed when the kid makes note of it.

That's awesome. Realize that you're in a 'honeymoon' phase tho', friend. I'm NOT saying that things will get as bad as they were, but things will cool back down some as time goes on.

That's where I'm at now, and that's really the source of what I'm dealing with. I don't want it to cool down any...I LIKED the contact, the affection, etc...

But for my wife it was getting to be a bit too much. So I've tried to back off a bit to give her that space. And as long as things don't ever feel like they're getting 'too cool', or in any way approaching the distance we had between us before, it should hopefully be reasonably comfortable for both of us.

We went through the same thing my friend...and it is AWESOME how good things can get when you're back to working together. Our kids picked up on it too...they could tell the day that we started reconciling, without either of us saying a word to them. Of course, being a teenager does give them a slightly different perspective than your kids probably have...LOL.

Owl - I think it's ok for my H to talk about now...but after talking to him last night, I'm still bothered by something. Maybe you and Sys can relate to this. My H tells me he views me differently now than before the A's. And maybe this is because I've had more than one. Before the A's he had total trust in me and felt like he knew who I was as a person. But now, he feels he really doesn't know who I am inside. Since I've done this, he doesn't have the total confidence that it WON'T happen again and that I'm willing to let my feelings take over instead of logic and what I know to be "right". I do realize what I did was very hurtful to my H and this may be a consequence of my sin that I will have to deal with. He tells me he HAS forgiven me, but this is how he views me....not that it takes over and ruins how we are as a couple. But...to know that he has these underlying thoughts of me really disturbs me.

I don't know if you both feel this way about your W's...or if this is something that will pass with time. Or something I'll deal with the rest of my M?

2BN-

I don't know how to say this without it sounding hurtful, so please do realize that it's not something personal.

I can very much relate to your H and how he feels. Realize that we ALL have this idealization of our spouses and our marriages before something like this happens. "Our M is different...something like that won't happen to US." "Well, I know that MY wife would NEVER do something like that to me."

Then the bomb drops. We find out that there ISN'T some mystical force protecting our M's. That the reality is that it CAN and DID happen to us. I would have NEVER thought that my wife would allow someone to come between us...have NEVER believed that she would even consider leaving our marriage. I always believed that she'd TALK with me about things, that she'd never lie about something as big as THIS.

Reality changes. Now we learn that our spouses are NOT perfect. That if things get bad enough, they WILL do the 'unthinkable'. It really does shake the foundation of your trust and belief in your spouse.

I don't KNOW for 100% certainty that my wife won't ever do something like this again. At this point, I can't imagine how SHE could feel 100% certain that she won't do it again. My trust in her will probably never be as complete (as innocent, as total) as it was before the EA happened.

I've forgiven her. I love her with all of my heart...in truth, it speaks volumes about how much I DO love her, in that I'm willing to take the risk of getting hurt like this again. I have NEVER been a trusting person. And in the times when I've been hurt in the past, I've ALWAYS cut my losses and walked away...so the fact that I've not done so this time, the fact that I love her so much that I'm willing to stay even knowing that it could happen again someday says a lot to me at least.

2BN, your H has lost his 'child-like trust' in you. I can't speak for him, or for anyone else, but I can tell you that I don't think that I myself will EVER have that kind of blind trust in someone again. I don't blame my wife for the loss of that either...honestly, it's reality, and it's just part of life.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Hi everyone,

I am here, but I'm not, if that makes sense. I've continued to have a lot going and have had little time to keep up with even reading the posts. I'm glad you all are still here because I know that when time allows I will need to come back and post and ask for more help. From what I gather, it sounds like everyone is doing relatively well. I will try to catch up soon.

nail on the head owl, not much to add. The only thing I can say is that from all accounts it can take as much as 2 years to regain trust. I feel waaayyy better now, but I can't say that every bit of doubt, paranoia nd distrust has gone away. I can intellectually overcome most of it, but sometimes I still get that fight or flight thing -right now as a matter of fact. My W was IMing me up until 20 minutes ago and then she sudden;y dropped -was probably a phone call or the baby was having a meltdown, but the sudden unexplained absence still gets me a bit. Part of it is just plain old concern, part of it though is left-over paranoia. It's these feelings that reinforce that sense of "who is she?, do I really know her? is she telling me everything?"