Hmmm....question on your thoughts about OM...

Are these thoughts 'loving' thoughts? Or simply thoughts about him in general?

If they're loving/missing him thoughts, then of course your H is going to be concerned. But if they're thoughts like what you'd have about a friend that you know you'll never see again, that would be 'normal' (as normal as things get in this kind of thing), and it's a matter of time and healing for those to fade.

I think he's got good reason to worry about it happening again. Not because of how you're behaving now, mind you, but given the track record to this point, of course he's going to be very gun-shy. You're going to have to work hard at SHOWING him how you've changed, and how you're going to make sure that it doesn't happen again. And it's going to take time for him to build that trust back up again...probably quite a long time when you think about it.

Again, not bashing you friend. Just trying to give you what I think his perspective might be.

Exactly. All of the loving/missing thoughts have faded. I'm just left with missing the friend that I KNOW I'll NEVER talk to again. My H can't understand that when I tried to explain it to him in those words. It's just hard for him to hear that I have those thoughts.

And yes maybe my H does has some reason to worry because of my track record. But...I was faithful to him for 17 years of marriage before this first OM came into my life. I believe I CAN be that faithful W again. He fully trusted me for 17 years of M in spite of my mistake prior to M.

I believe that you can and will be too. It's just going to take time and effort for your H to see that too. Remember too that his ego has taken a hell of a beating from all of this, and that doesn't help him deal with any of this well either.

And also remember its not been that long since you're last d-day. Give it some time, and keep doing your best.

A one year anniversary day for me today:

TODAY IS THE ONE YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF THE DAY RECOVERY TRULY BEGAN FOR MY WIFE AND I!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have been so swamped but I have been trying to at least read the posts.

Owl, I too, have so much appreciated your insights and I sometimes can't believe your patience with us. You have stuck with us, and it’s amazing to me that you empathize with us WS’s after the hurt you endured in the same situation. It is hard for me to understand how you are so supportive of us. You do have a gift - have you ever thought of marriage counseling as a career?

2BN, you asked me a couple days ago where I am at with my H. Thank you for asking, because I have needed to stop and reassess that for myself.

Honestly, we have not focused on our M lately. With the kids' activities lately it's been 7 or 8 at night before we all get home, do dinner, homework, etc. Then we grab the last hour or 2 for ourselves. We have not had much conversation about anything (except for who is picking up which kid!). I think all of this, plus my work stress has attributed to the fact that I find myself in much the same place as you…….still having feelings of loss.

I don’t want to say that I’m thinking of OM, it’s more a feeling of loss and sadness, a craving for what was. I'm thinking of OM, but it's in the vein of remembering how I was cared about and longing for that. It's not thinking of him and wanting to call and talk and all of that, it's thinking about how he made me feel. I can’t explain it exactly, but it must be about the needs again. Even though I know my H cares, it's something differnt. It is frustrating, though, that this much time has passed and I am still feeling this way.

I KNOW I have to WORK at healing myself and my M, but I just am not having the resolve I need to have right now. Even though I feel our communication is better and we have reconnected in some new ways, I am not feeling endeared to him yet. I AM committed to the M, but I feel like I haven’t mustered up the energy to begin the work. Does that make sense? Maybe it’s because it doesn’t appear my H is really working on it either. And it’s not right I should feel it’s his responsibility to be in the driver’s seat, but I can’t help but think that if he were more persistent things would be improving faster.

As far as discussions of the EA and OM, there are none. 2BN, you said this:


I know my H doesn’t want to hear this anymore either. He probably doesn’t think I have thoughts anymore about OM. I want to share all these feelings with him, but I know it hurts him to hear it – just like Owl & Sys don’t want to hear it. For some reason it does help, it gets it out in the open, it lets them know just where we are. How do we know when to share and when not to share? Do we wait for them to ask how we are doing?

2BN, I also want to ask you about the comment you made about the online R. You said something about not having trouble otherwise, just online. Why do you think that is for you? I know that for myself I have gone back to games online and I do really enjoy that. It must be about the interaction with other people - much like this is. Maybe that's what our needs are, only we just have to make sure we set the boundaries.

Owl, I just read your post on Snowbelle's thread - it was very helpful to me today. Thank you!

Cards-

Quick clarification...in my case at least, it's not that I don't want to hear...it's just that it's painful to hear and acknowledge. I agree with Sys...I'd rather hear and know that she's being honest and truly communicating with me and deal with the hurt that it causes than to have her hide how she feels and let our M get back to what it was.

I've never given any serious thought to becoming a counselor of any kind. It would be a MAJOR career change for me, and I'm not sure how my family would manage while I attempted to learn the things I'd need to and get myself established. I have felt like I would do well at that kind of thing, and have started praying about it to see where God leads us in the future. We'll see what happens.

I'm curious what you felt to be helpful and relevant in my post on Snowbelle's thread, btw. My thought was that it might help her (and her niece) to see what kind of things seemed to have made a difference in my situation, since it seems similar to theirs.

Owl, I think your post just made me think about the "big picture", especially when you spoke about pointing out to your W about the future weddings & graduations. It made me feel suddenly silly that I was rambling on in my post about how a virtual stranger was making me feel. I guess it just put it in perspective right at that moment!

So, do we ignore those FEELINGS because eventually they will pass as more and more time passes, OR is it necessary to work hard right NOW to fill those needs with our M & H?

My opinion?

Don't wait to fix what you know is wrong in your M. If you know/feel there is a problem, don't wait to take action to fix it. NOT taking action is what got most of us into the boat we are in today.

It sounds to me like the two of you need to make your M your #1 priority right now. I know how hard that is to do, but you run a major risk by not doing so. Have you looked for that one book I'd recommended..."20 (Surprisingly Simple) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" by Steve Stephens? It's got a LOT of good info and thoughts in it...give it a shot. Pick it up, and spend 15 min a nite when you and your H lay down for bed to read and talk about a chapter a nite. Trust me!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

My point here is, are these still withdrawal feelings or the real needs that we have to meet? I don't know why I am struggling with this right now and why I can't seem to differentiate. You are right - some of these issues are exactly how we got into this mess. We had the 20 Rules book from the library but reached our limit for renewing it. I will have to check it out again. Again, I think the stress right now is really doing a number on me.

Cards - How do you define your feelings of loss? Is it the loss of being cared for? How the OM made you feel? That is sometimes what I dwell on as well. Things are going well, I believe, with my H and I, but I still feel this sense of loss with those "feelings" I got from the OM. I'll never have those same "feelings" with my H and that's hard to explain why. The OM had a different way with words than my H ever had or will. And it's that in which I long for. I do know my H loves me and is working hard on our M and we are communicating and reconnecting as well. I guess I'm at the same stage as you Cards because I do feel frustrated as well that I am still longing for that.


I struggle with this as well. I tend to want to say what's on my mind to my H, but I feel as if I have to hold back. I feel lately that my H doesn't want to hear so much.


Cards - I have only had trouble with the online R since the first OM emailed me in July 2003. In 17 years of M, I never struggled with dishonesty or having a desire to seek someone outside of M. In real life, I have my boundaries set and I don't cross them. I wasn't prepared on how to handle the email that first OM sent me. He was someone from my past as a teenager and I really was curious as to whatever happened to him. I chose to keep it a secret from my H because I KNEW if I told my H, I would not find out about this person as my H would have me not email him -probably even if I let him read the emails. I ended getting deeper and deeper into the emails and discovering his feelings for me. I was sucked in and pulled into all of it and couldn't turn myself around to do what was right. I really believe I never thought of boundaries in this situation and I was caught off-guard and thought I could handle myself and not get involved with this OM.

I really found the most recent OM to fill my needs more than the first OM. The first OM "awakened" the needs that I wasn't aware of that I really needed. The 2nd OM fulfilled them in a much greater way.


Cards, I find it interesting that you are just seeing this "big picture" today. I have thought about all of this for so long and had many conversations with the 2nd OM about "the big picture". Strange how we talked about all of that but yet continued in our little fantasy.


I am still at a loss at trying to figure out these feelings as well. I long for what I felt, but yet they can't be fulfilled by my H. I also think those 'feelings' with the OM, if we would have pursued the OM, would have not stayed them same in real life. I keep thinking the emotions from an online A are just so intense that it can't compare to real life.

Anyways - I've been swamped here today and only had a few minutes to write down some of my thoughts. I'll try to write more later when I can think clearly.

Cards

Does your H see that there were problems in your M before the EA? Is he in denial about them? Maybe you need time to recover from all the emotions of withdrawal before you guys can tackle the M problems. It seems so draining to have to do both withdrawal and recovery sometimes. Good to know there's hope for withdrawal ending and the fog lifting.

I"m doing a bit better today, I think. I'm feeling more like the EA is truly over and beginning to accept it. I'm still sad about it of course, but not the overwhelming pain and desire to continue the EA. I even feel a bit of anger toward OM for letting it go on his part so easily. This is helping me get over him and begin to move on. Hopefully it will stop me from wanting to contact him again.

I still feel sad, like you were saying cards, about the loss of the A and the feeling of love I got from him. I don't have that from H and so it's hard. I mean he has been showing me tons of love and attention but I haven't been ready to receive it I guess. It just feels empty like before the EA. Maybe in time it will return.

My H is out of town now and I do feel a sense of relief that the drama will be gone for a bit. It's nice to just focus on my kids and stuff and not think about the M for a while.

OK, I just had a thought about something, and I'd like to share it with all three of you ladies. Now...I wanna preface it with this...

I could well be full of fertilizer. It wouldn't be the first time (you should ask Mrs Owl about that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ).

Have ya'll read the chapter in "The Five Love Languages" that talks about the difference between 'love' and 'in love"?

I ask, because after I thought a bit how each of you have described your current feelings, and how you all seem to feel that you'll 'never feel the same way about my H', this kind of came to me.

You're probably quite right. What you felt for you OM was that transitory 'in love' feeling. You felt it for your H when you first met him....years and years ago. So long ago, you've probably only got vague recollections of how strong those feelings were. But think back a minute about that, and compare those feelings to what you had with OM. I'd guess that there are a LOT of similarities. (He was 'the one'. He understood you, listened to you, etc... Any of the faults he had seemed inconsequential to you compared to all of the good things about him).

Those 'in love' feelings don't last. They're FAR different than the kind of long term, almost self-sacrificing feelings of love that you have for a person you've been with for decades. There's no new thrill of discovery with your H. There's no new thrill over whether or not HE finds you attractive, interesting, etc... You know all of his stories, his mannerisms, his background. You already know all the intimate details about him. There's not the thrill of building and creating a NEW relationship. There's not the fear and excitement of being with someone for the first time.

Again....that's NORMAL. You may see a bit of that 'spark' come back when you and your H first start to rebuild, but it will fade. It's supposed to! That 'spark' of newness, that 'in love' feeling is simply your mind and body reacting to the normal reaction of something new and exciting. It's nothing more than normal biological and emotional responses to a new stimulii.

Real love, the kind that holds a couple together AFTER something as horrific as what we've all gone through, is something totally different. It's not based on new and exciting. It's based on KNOWING someone as intimately as you can. On already knowing all those things about that person, and wanting them to be a part of your life. It takes TIME to build up and learn. AND IT FEELS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM THE 'IN LOVE' FEELINGS!!!

So take this one step further. Pretend for a moment that things HAD worked out with OM. Guess what...inside a year, two years, those 'in love' feelings fade. Now, in a relationship that starts normally, those feelings are gradually replaced by the 'love' feelings that most long term couples share. BUT...that doesn't happen in most relationships that start out from an A. That's because THOSE relationships have different roots than a normal one. The first thing most WS's feel when that 'in love' feeling fades is guilt...and they feel that guilt in spades!!! And they start seeing that OP in a whole new light. The finally are able to see the flaws that they've been overlooking all that time (just like you finally started to seriously see the flaws in your H after you'd been married a year or two...there's a reason why that's a crisis time in most marriages). So now, they're with someone that they isn't what they thought, and they're also now feeling guilt for what they did to the BS...and they're now realizing that they're STILL unhappy.

That's why so few marriages that start in an A last beyond 5 years.

Now...how does all that start to describe the difference in how you feel for you H, and how you felt for your OM? Can you see how it's very possible that you won't feel the same way about your H, but that you would have gotten to the same point with ANYONE??

So the trick is this...work on the M that you have now. You chose your H for a reason years ago. There's a saying..."A man marries a woman hoping she'll never change (she'll stay pretty, young, loving, sweet, etc...)...but she ALWAYS does. A woman marries a man hoping that he WILL change (mature, lose weight, stop smoking, become a better person...)...but her NEVER does!" Use the fact that your H is the same person you fell in love years ago to your advantage. Concentrate on those qualities that you loved then, and love now.

Again, I could be full of fertilizer. Just an observation from an old Owl on a Friday afternoon.

Oh Wise Owl (I'll leave out the 'old' <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )- You always have the right words to help us ladies thinking in the right direction.

You are right that the "feelings" we are describing are the "in love" feelings from a new relationship and they in no way can compare to the "love" of a marriage between 2 people for many years. I have read the "Five Love Languages" and I do remember it talking about the difference between being "in love" and "love". We would have to think waaaayyyy back to remember how that "in-love" feeling felt when we first met our spouse. I'm sure there are many similarities.

Because I had talked to the 2nd OM about these feelings from the first OM, he had told me the VERY SAME THING. He told me that I can't compare the "in love" feelings to the love of a marriage of many years. And that 'in-love' feeling would fade. WHY could neither of us realize that when WE were in it together???? Why when it flipped to an A with the 2nd OM, why didn't he give me the same lines and tell me that we were experiencing "in-love" feelings and not "real love"??? No answer needed because I'm just thinking out loud (or typing out loud...LOL!) When the 2nd OM and I first fell into our "feelings" for each other and we were "trying to stop", I told him maybe we need to go back and read all the advice HE GAVE ME regarding the first OM!! He knew I was right, but still...we continued in the A.

I have thought that if I would have pursued the OM, those feelings would fade over time. But....why did it feel that these OM were meeting a need that we weren't getting from our spouses?? Did we all just crave to feel that "in-love" feeling again that we hadn't felt in so long? These are real questions here...Were these OM really meeting our needs or were we just 'overcome' by the 'in-love' feelings?

I've warned ya'll about calling me wise...again, its too bad you all don't get to talk with Mrs Owl...she could set ya straight!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And it's probably a combination of the two...in the beginning, he was meeting a need you had concerning communication. He was listening to you, and responding to you and your thoughts and situation. That is one of the main needs that many women have. Once he started to fulfill that need, you started to get a 'tingle' of the 'in love' feelings....and then the race is on! Next thing you know, you're wanting more and more of both...it's a cycle.

I'm outta here for the weekend. I sincerely hope that all of you have a wonderful weekend, and that God continues to work miracles in your lives!

Yes you are right here that it is a combination of the 2! I'm beginning to see that! He did fufill the needs of listening (very intently) and also words of affirmation. And the more we talked, the more we became attached and then "in love" feelings started.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend with your family, Owl...and everyone else too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, all very true thoughts. I remember with my OM thinking it was so nice to feel in love again! But I knew that it wouldn't last and that everyone of course has flaws and I knew what some of his were. I also knew in my situation at least that OM and I would never work out, that it would always be just a temporary thing. Actually I had never thought that it would last a year, I figured he'd get bored and move on after a few months!

I also knew that I won't feel that in love feeling for my H ever again, but there should be some kind of love feeling right? I mean does one just settle for a friend/roommate kind of love or should it be deeper? This is what I struggle with now. I know I have a ways to go, I just know that I don't think I could settle for that kind of love. There has to be some kind of deeper connection. There won't ever be that infatuation feeling again, I realize that. Love is always going to cool and become a more comfortable thing.

I think there's 2 issues for me at least. I miss the love and affection I was getting from OM that I wasn't getting from H, feeling love. But I also miss OM the person and friend, sort of giving love. That is where the feeling of loss comes in. Hopefully eventually H can give me those feelings of love, attention, and affection that OM was giving me and I just have to morn losing the person and friend I had in OM.

I have no doubt that H can work on meeting my EN and becoming, hopefully less selfish, self-centered, egotistical. But if that will lead to me feeling a deeper love for him, I don't know. But I won't know if I don't try.

So 2b, I think its both that in love feeling AND someone meeting our needs that we became addicted to. Our H's can begin to meet our EN and hopefully it will lead to us feeling love, but not that infatuation love from the A.

Have a great holiday everyone. I hope I can be strong this weekend w/ my H out of town! I have plans with family/friends to keep me busy!

2BN-

I describe my feelings of loss as the loss of how OM made me feel by his attention to me. I DO understand about the feeling of being "in love". Owl, the chapter in the 5 Languages book does a great job of explaining it. That's why I was frustrated today - I was wondering if what I am still feeling is the withdrawal from those "in love" feelings that need to continue to fade away. OR, are these feelings for needs that I HAVE to have met in order to avoid this situation again? I guess either way, my H & I have to at least begin to attempt to meet these needs as a way of repairing the M.

2Bn-

I understood the "big picture" a long time ago, it just struck me today because I wrote my post where I was talking about how OM made me feel. Then right after that I read Owl's post and it struck me funny. Somehow I find it odd to be able to have both of those mindsets at the same time. Even during my EA I was well aware of the big picture.

Win-

Yes, both of us were aware of problems BEFORE the EA, but neither of us pushed to work on the M. We were both being complacent and taking the M for granted. I am glad you're starting to feel some better. It does take a long time, just expect that. It will continue to get easier. I think you made a good point about being able to RECEIVE the love and attention from H. A few weeks ago I did not want to receive any of it - during the harder withdrawal period. But I do feel like now I am open to it. In time you will be open too.

I agree, we are craving both the meeting of our needs and those great, happy, euphoric feelings of being in love. We can have our needs met, but must accept that we have to withdraw from the "in love" feelings.

Well, hope everyone had a good holiday weekend. I can't say that mine was good...LOTS of things going on in Owl's Roost at the moment. I'm just hoping that we can get everything together soon. Between teenagers ready to defy anyone and everyone, my wife responding to that very very badly, and me being foolish enough to see if the meds really WERE helping (by NOT following my Dr's advice and not getting a refill)...this weekend was one of the worst ones we've had in the last year.

Making an appt with my Dr today. I can at least take care of MY part in things. I'm hoping that the early b-day present that I surprised my wife with (tickets to a two day ladies retreat with her FAVORITE Christian ladies groups this upcoming weekend) will help her out at least.

Sorry to hear your weekend was not so great Owl. Another thing we seem to have in common-lol. Mine wasn't horrible per se, but it could have been better. Our plans originally were to go out on Saturday night, and spend the rest of the weekend doing some stuff around the house and just taking it easy. Well we got a surprise visit from my father in-law instead. Neither of us is particularly fond of him because he's a very negative person and he's a lousy house guest -very high-needs (not unlike having another child for the weekend). So my wife was stressed-out over him being with us -praying he will leave on Monday (he's unemployed and has been known to camp out with us for extened periods). Meanwhile I found myself more irritated by him than normal b/c he always monoplizes my wife's attention (takes the couch with her -leaving me to sit elsewhere, gabs incessently about nothing, giving us no opportunity to talk to each other, holds her hand when we walk somewhere, etc.). So where I hoped for yet another good weekend of together time, I was sidelined while this overgrown attention hog took over my family for the weekend.

To add to it, he made numerous references to how his marriage to my W's mother was destroyed by "that evil woman". That you can't trust women (the guy is a seriously bitter misogynist), that my W's mother wrecked a great thing, yadda yadda yadda. Now I've heard all of this before, but this time around it was really hard to take. He wasn't very nice to my 5 y.o. either -jerk!

So I was largely left to my own thoughts which at this point were nothing but negative. I began to feel really lonely and that got me thinking in some ways that I didn't like one bit. Mainly I began to dwell on this sense of intense lonliness I feel. My W is still a great companion, but I miss feeling cared for and about. That is still missing. I so want to love and be loved. I began to start thinking, damn, is this worth it? Why not throw in the towel and find someone who will love me. Someone with out all this baggage. Now I know this is just wallowing. I want my wife, I love my wife and and I want my family. But man, sometimes it's so exhausting. I know that I wasn't at my best this weekend, I was irratible and grumpy (the old me began to surface I afraid). My W wasn't much better. We both understand completely that it was the stress of her father being around so there are no hard feelings, but it was still a lousy weekend and I always worry about loosing ground.

Well, now he's gone and we have our 2 week vacation coming up in a coulpe of weeks so I guess I'll just hope for the best. I don't think any damage has been done, but I do feel like we have taken a bit of a step back since that whole post from the OM, I can't help but think that it brought him back into more focus than either of us would have liked. I guess this is how it goes though. That which doesn't kill us makes us stronger right?