Win-

So what's your view on this? I've read Bass's comments over in the divorce forum, and he described a lot more than just a 'harmless' closure conversation with OM.

Based on just your overall attitude about recovery, I'm curious on what your plan moving forward is going to be now.

I don't really know what I'm suppose to say. I don't really want to air everything out on a message board. I know I've used OM's as an escape to not deal with my real feelings of not wanting to continue the M. Yes, a cop out. Yes, a conflict-avoider. I want to change that. I plan to stay in IC to work through my issues and help my children and I would hope that Bass would consider it as well. I know Bass is angry and he needs somewhere to vent his feelings and his side and i will respect that and stay away. I have my own support system.

Well, wife's been away for two days now. I'm tired. We've IM'ed a few times, and I called her last nite for a few minutes. She's having a great time, and I'm hoping it all works out well for her.

I still feel odd, but we'll see how things go while she's gone. I'm just lonely as heck right now.

Hope everyone else is doing alright...I've posted responses to Win and Bass on their own thread now.

Owl-

How are you doing today? You said you were "tired" - mentally tired, or what? I'm glad your W is having a good time. I think the weekends are the hardest when people are gone because we are so out of our routines and those are the times when we are accustomed to being with those people. Hopefully you are feeling somewhat better today.

Sys, how have you and your W been? How is she doing?

Glad that Win & Bass got some additional support on their own thread. I'm hoping and praying that they will try harder and give it a chance.

Sorry I haven't been too vocal out here lately. My situation seems pretty trivial by comparisson to the fireworks out here.

Anyway, things are pretty good. It's ahrd to describe the dynamic that I'm beginnign to see emerge in my case. It seems that we do better and better, then plateau with a bunch of ups and downs on that pleateau, and then generally, have another push for the better. Most recently, things seemed really good. My W is either really making an effort or is genuinely feeling alot better about us. We talked about it a few nights ago. I mentioned that she seemed a lot happier of late and more affectionate and that I thought we had made a lot of progress lately. She agreed, said she'd been very happy recently and that she was still trying really hard and was hopeful for us. Yet when she said all of this, she seemed a bit shy about it -not a typical trait for her. I didn't push the issue, but in the constant state of paranoia I'm still in (Owl, sound familiar?), I began to wonder why she seemed so uncomfortable saying those things.

After that, it seemed like she retreated a bit, and I'm thinking maybe I should just lay off the relationship talk unless it's really pressing or at MC -it seems to put her off balance when I bring stuff up out of the blue.

Anyway, I still beleive that we are on the road to recovery. I won't feel secure until she can tell me she honestly loves me the way she needs to, but I feel like with each passing week it gets better between us. We are both finally relaxing and joking and just enjoying each other's company. The one thing that I think still messes us up is the kids. Love them to death, but they can really kill the mood sometimes. We'll be having a really nice day, a nice moment, whatever and along comes one or the other screaming for one thing or another. It's hard for us to give each other attention during the day while our kids are demading our attention too(heck, they're 5 and 2 almost -what do you expect).

We'll be going on a weeks vacation with my family (mom and GM) next week -should be good for us I think. We'll have 2 babysitters who are more than happy to take the kids off our hands and it will be nice to be away from the everyday grind.

Sys-

Make sure you take advantage of your "free" babysitters. I wish that we had taken the advice given to us when our kids were at the stage you are. We were told over and over to have dates and go out, but we didn't. We had 3 kids in 2 years and there were very few people that could babysit and handle that. Anyway, had we spent more time on our M and each other during those years, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. Those years with young kids are very stressful - so much, if not all, is focused on them. Now that we have moved from that stage and have school-aged kids there is some relief from the day-to-day running after little ones. Now we have to re-find our connection to each other after so much time has elapsed.

It's great that you see strides in your R and how much effort your W is putting in. My H would say that he still hasn't SEEN much effort on my part, but I have asked him to trust that mentally I am in a much better place in being hopeful for our M. So, even though he doesn't see great demonstration in affection from me, I know that in my mind the commitment continues to strengthen. That could be true for your W as well if there are times where the progress appears to be stalled.

You mentioned being paranoid. I don't think my H is paranoid, but he does still ask me out of the blue sometimes if everything is ok (meaning "you haven't talked to that guy again, have you?"). Sometimes he will read into my mood which must trigger something for him.

Along with being awfully busy lately, I, too, have felt that I've had little to report. But I do know that reading and posting does help me.

Cards-

Both mentally and physically tired. I've not been able to sleep well, and that combined with the stress from work and dealing with our four teenagers, I really do feel pretty run down. Actually was out sick today from work, but HAD to go in for something late this afternoon.

Sys-
I do understand that paranoia. And sadly it's something I'm still occasionally dealing with, FOR NO REASON. My wife has given me NO indication of any problems for a year now, so WHY am I so stressed out about her being at her sisters?!?!

But I'm glad to hear that things are going well for you my friend. Things WILL keep getting easier. What really helps is when you hear her say "what was I thinking?!?!" Keep up the awesome work!

cards-

I'm convinced that althought the seeds and roots of our problems were there before the kids, having the kids made things much harder. Sudden'y we never got to out, we were mentally and physically exhausted most of the time (still are) and there was very little opportunity for "us". Out MC had an interesting insight into that and what impact i's had on us which is that after spending the whole day with needy kids physically and emotionally crawling all over her, creating a general ruckus, the last thing my wife wanted when I got home was another attention seeking, physically needy person (me) so ther may have been a great degree of distancing on her part becuase of that -which I resented, which led to anger and frustation on my part, which made me unpleasant to be around, and I began to retreat from her b/c i was angry... and the whole thing spirals from there.

I don't blame the kids, but rather our inability to recognize and deal with the changed dynamic in the house and how it was effecting us. Essentially we took a marriage that had some minor problems and threw it into a really high-stress situation and didn't handle it well at all.

Now we have the benefit of insight, the kids getting older and easier and we are getting a sitter once a week now and just going out for a few hours.

As for the paranoia -it is real and uncontrollable. If you look at it from the BS POV it's not hard to understand. As far as we knew, everything was OK with our spouses, then suddenly we discover that they have been hiding the most painful, awful secret from us. Suddenly you realize the one person you trusted most in the world has betrayed you utterly. At that point, you begin to question everything they have ever said or done. You put every thing they do and say under the microscope b/c you don't know what to believe anymore -your trust is so completly broken. This is not a deliberate behavior -it just is. You can't not feel that way. All you can do is try to talk yourself out of acting on the paranoia without thinking it though first. It's something I live with and have to manage every day. And I'll tell you, it can be exhausting. It sounds like your H is either dealing with it really well, or just not letting it show. The best way to put it to rest is to be open and honest about how your dealing with the situation. I wish my W was more so. The one time she told me how hard it was maintining NC, probably di more to allay my fears than hurt me. It was hard to hear that, but at the same time it reaasuured me that she was working hard for us.

Sys-

Your description of how the BS feels after d-day is dead on the money for me too. I don't know that my wife completely understands that either, nor do I really think that she'd ever be able to do so.

It can affect your self-esteem too. You know now that you're 'disposable'. That you CAN be replaced in her heart and her mind, and that HURTS.

That paranoia has been a big part of what I'm dealing with while the wife's out of state right now. She's given me NO reason to believe that anything will happen while she's gone, but that fear is still there. All I can do is fight it as best I can and wait for her to come home this weekend. Hopefully some of the other FWS here on MB will read this and it can provide them some insight in what kind of emotional issues the BS goes through even during recovery.

Cards- Hope you're doing well friend!

EXACTLY!!! Sys, I will tell you that EVEN NOW, years after those little people literally hung on me, I STILL feel like I have less need for physical touch. My kids are still physically affectionate even now at these ages, so somehow I think all of that physical touch helps to fill up that need. My H feels shortchanged because the kids are "stealing" his share of physical touch from me. This is something I am working on for my H. AND, as in your situation, since I pulled away physically a while ago (not just sexually) he felt rejected and then HE pulled away emotionally. So......there starts the whole thing...neither of us getting our needs met.

I appreciate your explanation of the paranoia, it is understandable. I know I would feel the same if the situation were reversed. I see that it will take time for my H and all BS to rebuild that security and trust.



It's hard to admit to H about fighting NC, although I have been totally upfront about days where the EA is more in my thoughts. He has found that by reading my posts here that is where he has gotten the most assurance of my willingness to work on the M. He has told me several times that he can see by what I have written how hard I am working. Maybe it's easier to absorb the written words rather than interpretting them correctly in an emotionally charged discussion. It does make sense that you would feel "good" about hearing her admit to those feelings - after all you already know that there were strong feelings associated with the EA and they didn't just disappear. I would continue to encourage her to share with you, it keeps the connection going, it helps her get it out, and it helps you know where her head is.

BTW, while I was writing this post, my H called me and invited me to lunch. These small, seemingly little efforts on his part are demonstrating to me his efforts, too. Little by little.......

yep-yep know it myself. I can remember when we got a new puppy (who grew to be a huge beast). My W would cuddle with the pup on the couch and leave me to sit elsewhere -this was the beginning of our physical retreat. Up until then we always cuddled on the couch together. I was jealous of a dog! But I told myself that was silly and I began to sit in another chair and after a while that became a habit. Next she was seriously injured in a car accident and I couldn't even begin to touch her without it causing pain, so for the better part of a year, physical contact between us was limited. This is all around the itme she began to have problems with us. Is there a connection? She'll say no -that I was becoming hard to live with -which I counter with: I was grouchy b/c I was physically lonely and under stress worrying about her health and the loss of her income. Years go by, habits get entrenched, anger builds under the surface and neither of us could see it for what it was. Then come the kids and we are pushed further apart. She starts getting alot of whatever physical needs (and more) met by the children. I get more resentful. She misses adult companionship during the day and turns to an on-line game. Meanwhile I feel more and more abandoned and shut down to her emotionally. Now she's really unhappy and turns to the OM as a confidant. Before you know it, he's meeting her ENs and I'm silently watching the TV,at a slow boil b/c I feel rejected. Again, I felt all this but didn't recognize it -it just manifested itself as a nagging sense of unfocused frustration and disatisfaction.

It's good to be able to understand how we got here, but there's not much to do about the past except learn from it. Now I just hope we can make it.

Hey Owl, guess what? W was just playing EQ2 for a few and it's tuesday and I'm not paranoid. Either I'm feeling alot more trust, or I'm a dope :P

Hi everyone! Just popping in here real quick to say hi!
We got back from our vacation yesterday afternoon. We had a great time together as a family. My H had the whole trip planned out so well for us...he had an absolute blast which was very much needed for him.

I will say that I had some struggling thoughts of the OM while I was away. I can't understand with how busy we were that my mind went there? On the flight up we flew directly over both of the OM's cities and we were low enough at that time to where I could see the cities...that was hard for me with just thinking about if I would have flown to see the OM.

But while we were on vacation, my mind kept dwelling on the OM and it was hard for me to stop! I even thought in my head that I would write him when I returned. I completely don't understand this! I don't understand that when I am on vacation and extremely busy, that my mind would go there! However, now that I'm home, my sanity is back and I am not planning on emailing him.

About the BS's paranoia...last year on our family vacation, my H was extremely paranoid. I had used calling cards to call the 1st OM previous to our vacation. My H kept these calling card #'s on him and constantly checked those #'s while we were on vacation. He thought for sure I was planning to somehow meet OM #1!! I had no plans to do so. At this point last year, I was just about to end my communications with OM #1, but my H thought that it had all ended...but I guess not totally sure since he was checking the calling cards. This vacation he was definately more relaxed and more sure of "us".

Hope everyone is doing well. Win & Bass - so sorry to hear the turn of events on your situation.

LOL...well, I'd say you're not being a dope...you're recovering! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm not paranoid about my wife being at home alone anymore. I don't worry whenever she sits down at the computer like I used to.

And I've found that the paranoia does come and go in cycles a lot of times too. The cycles get less and less, and the paranoia reduces quite a bit. In my case, it's not paranoia now, it's just an occasional worry about things. For example, I know that the wife would have been very hard pressed to hide any contact with OM, based on a number of things. But, it would be a LOT easier for her to contact him while she's at her sister without my knowing it. Again, I have no reason to believe that she would, but I know that it's possible.

At any rate, I'm glad to hear that your doing so well friend!

I meant to comment on this as well. You know from my perspective, these little things mean so much when they come from my W too. She's really made some great efforts to include me in things that in the past she wouldn't have bothered. Things like stopping by for lunch with the kids, or inviting me along on a day trip during the week. When she compliments me, or recognizes my efforts -all of this means so much.

If nothing else comes of this expereince it will be that I've learned to take nothing for granted.

Sys-

Isn't that amazing that we are living the same life - many, many of us!!!???? You would think we would all learn from each other, wouldn't you? A while ago you talked about wanting to educate your W about how this all happened. Does she agree with this scenario? I had to smile when reading your account because your story is basically the same as mine (except for the dog!). I agree, now that we've analyzed and know the why's all we can do is move forward and learn about those needs that we neglected for each other - the question is how to start meeting them now AND repair any hurt, resentment, or anger that resulted from not meeting them. Unfortunately, just the knowledge of how we got here doesn't fix everything.

Owl, try to relax about your W being gone. Look at it that during this time that she is away, she can refocus on your M. You KNOW she is committed to YOU and your M. Is your anxiety about mistrusting her while she is away, or is it about you being at home without her? Maybe focus on you - go get a massage and do something really relaxing for YOURSELF!

Cards - any ideas why I would have felt the way I did during my vacation?

We are going away next month as well and I don't want to have this happen again!

2BN-

Sorry, you and I must have posted at the same time earlier! Welcome back friend.

Its not surprising that you had thoughts on OM(s) while you're on vacation, but it is a little concerning that you'd considered calling him at all. I am glad that your trip was a lot better for you this year though.

Just keep working on actively avoiding thoughts of OM, and of deliberately changing what you're thinking of when you DO think of is the only thing I can suggest.

Cards-

I'll have to try to take some time to do something 'for me' at some point. I just gotta figure out what/when/how. On a positive note, my wife has called me several times while she's been gone, and used her sister's computer to IM me a few times as well. So at least we've been in touch a good amount, and all of our communication has been positive. (Though I have communicated to her just how much I miss her! LOL)

Owl - I thought my post got lost in there! Thanks for the welcome back.

You may have misunderstood the calling part as I was referring to last year's vacation when talking about the calling cards.

I had thought about emailing the OM while I was on vacation this year. My thoughts were very strong of the OM and I wonder if it had to do with just being away from my normal routines? I had thought that being away from my normal routines would make me NOT think of the OM, but for me it had the opposite effect. Maybe it had to do with being somewhere different? I didn't mention this to my H..well not the intensity of my thoughts. I only told him that I still have weird unexplained thoughts of sometimes contacting the OM. I didn't dwell on it with my H during vacation as I didn't want to spoil his fun.

2BN-

Welcome back, 2B, we missed you! So glad you had a good trip and your H engineered it all, too! I would really appreciate that!

Well. I was totally surprised, too, when I was on vacation that I thought of OM so much. I thought vacation was what the doctor ordered for me - time away from my normal routine, my pc, some nice weather. My expectations were that it would do me a world of good. NO, it didn't....at least while I was gone. Why not? For me I was too much out of my routine - I had some strategies in place for dealing with withdrawal and when I left on vacation I didn't have those (i.e. this site, my online games, for example).

I think I suffered MORE obvious withdrawal while being gone because being away from home was more drastic. What I mean is, up until this time away we were slowly withdrawing from our EA's. We still had little things each day that sort of kept us in the EA, the little triggers and such. We were dealing with them and slowly weaning off them. THEN......we left town. For me, no triggers around to give me any thoughts. Since I was still in withdrawal, my mind subconsciously went to OM to create the triggers to keep the "addiction". I also think my expectations were too high for my H and I to connect during our vacation time - that didn't happen either, contributing to the fact of not having EN's met. That's just my take on my situation, it may not apply to you at all, 2B.

I was ready to get home by the end of my trip and get back in my routine. I remember coming back and posting about how disappointed I was in myself the same we you are saying. I was frustrated that I felt I had gone backwards and didn't understand why. I think I will go back and read that for more insight. It will pass, 2B, and you will be back to where you were, no matter what the reasons are that OM are in your thoughts. Give it a few days and get back in your routine, you'll be fine. Get back posting!!! I also don't think I realized how much I depended on you all for support!

OWL - Before your mind even goes there, don't in ANY way take this and apply it to your W being gone on her trip!!! Myself & 2BN were/are still in withdrawal from our EA's at the time of these trips. Your W's EA was over a year ago!!

sorry to hear that the vacas weren't so great. I hope we have a little more luck. I've learned not to put any expectations on special events. That's a formula for dissapointment. We are both really looking forward to it, and hopefully my W won't have the same reaction that you all did -but if she does, at least I've had a heads up -thanks.