LOL...I ever tell ya what I do for a living?? I'm a program manager for a major telecommunications company. And my wife repeatedly accused me of trying to 'project manage repairing our marriage"!! It was actually pretty funny. So I know what you mean about wanting to educate her...but trust me, odds are she'll just take it that you're trying to be controlling at this point. I had to wait until my wife was able to THINK about things before we could have those kinds of talks....several months after d-day for us.

Well, off topic, but thought I'd post it. I'm officially feeling old now. My oldest two graduated high school last nite.

We had a great time at the graduation ceremony. I 'triggered', but not in a real bad way by any means. Just had the simple thought that it was a heck of a lot better than either of us would have pictured this time last year. She'd planned on 'sharing' this event with her OM...it was something that they'd talked about doing together. But last nite was awesome, because there was no doubt about who she was there with, and how happy she was about it.

Just thought I'd share the good news about the graduation.

Sys-



Hmmm......I think I would share with her how you perceive everything, but I would be offended if I felt my H were trying to "educate" me about what's going on inside me. I'm not sure any one of us has all the answers. Offering insight about what you've learned would be great, just be careful about how you present it.

Owl-

Congrats on the high school graduations. I am happy you can reflect on the better place that you are in now! What a milestone for you and your family!

Owl - Congrats on the high school graduation as well! Glad it was a great experience for you. Our oldest graduated high school last Friday night so I know how you feel! It too was a wonderful graduation and ceremony to celebrate with our family. Our daughters go to a small Christian school, so there were only 45 graduating. A nice, personal graduation ceremony. My H and I had some thoughts and triggers as a result. Mostly thinking how things "could have been" if I would have left and possibly been sitting there with the OM. My H said - hmmm...wonder what people would think if you were sitting there with that "geek"? I don't know why he refers to the OM as a "geek"...guess it's just his way of making himself feel better.

Anyways - hope everyone is having a good day so far.
Cards - how have things been with you lately? What ever happened with all of your saved IM conversations and your H knowing of them?

Grats Owl, that milestone is waaayyy down the road for us -my oldest "graduated" pre-school today.

2B -FWIW, I refer to the OM as a "geek", "looser", and a few other choice words -but I keep it to myself (I'm a self-acknowledged geek anyway, just not as geeky as him...).

Well, I've never talked bad about OM in front of my wife. I know that it would do not the slightest bit of good, and can't really see any point in it.

She made the comment that "you'll never get me to hate him", actually not that long ago. I don't know if she's really accepted his role in things...if she can REALLY admit to herself how much he 'pulled' her, and manipulated her feelings. But, it's also not something I'm going to make an issue over...since he's not in our lives any longer, and she's got no desire to go back to that relationship with him.

Now, he IS a geek...he's a computer guru for a living. But that's really got nothing to do with it.

Owl, Sys - Interesting that neither of you verbalized this to your W's. I thought it would be common. My H calls all the OM losers, geeks...etc. It sort of makes me upset because I was just in the wrong as the OM were, so what does that make me? I have verablized this to my H that I don't like when he calls them losers, etc., but it does no good. Don't know what else to say? The most recent OM is a project manager for a large IT company..so does that qualify him for a geek?

I don't think I would ever "hate" the OM either. I too have a hard time seeing the OM's role. I still have a hard time thinking of that and accepting that as well.

Well 2BN, just remember that it does work two ways on the BS's side too. There's no way I'll ever believe that the OM in my case didn't have a LARGE portion of blame in this. He KNEW she was married from the very beginning. But, he started contacting her from work within days after they first 'met' in game. She says he never pulled her to him....he did, but he was VERY subtle. Hell, it darn near worked when you stop and think about it!!!

Just as you may not be able to allow yourself to see his role, and you'll never feel like you could hate him, realize that your H will likely ALWAYS hate him. There isn't anything that you can do to convince your husband that it WASN'T this guy's fault too.

I would suggest that you ask him what he's accomplishing by bashing the OM like that in front of you. It just makes YOU feel worse, and it doesn't do anything to help the situation in any other ways.

Yeah 2B, I don't see the point in bashing the guy. In fact the less we mention him the better.

I don't think there's much I can do to seriously sway my W's perception of the guy. On and around D-Day I made it clear that I thought the guy was a major looser b/c he couldn't control his selfishness and allowed the A to begin and flourish. That where my W was confused, that he went into it eyes wide open, knowing full well that she had a husband and a family. Basically I said he was a greedy, selfish looser with no sense of propriety or honor and why should she want to continue with someone of such weak moral fiber? That was where I left it. I have no idea if any of it stuck or if she has ever thought it over, but that's one place I feel she needs to go on her own. I can't convince her of it, so I don't.

I do realize that my H will always hate the OM. He calls him a "wolf in sheep's clothing" because he came to "help me" and in the end he "hurt me". The OM knew full well I was married, had children, etc. He even listed all of the reasons that we should stop when we first let out our feelings for each other. Because the OM felt he was "called to help me", he really struggled with our A and what he did to me. But, his struggles didn't stop his weakness or mine.

As far as bashing the OM, it doesn't happen often, but he can only refer to him as a loser or geek when he might refer to the OM. He cannot and will not use his real name. Owl, Sys - do you use the OM's real name when you have any discussions about the OM with your W's? Our conversations about the OM have diminished in the last week or so though. Trying to stay away from talking about the OM and focusing on us.

It seems reasonable to believe the BS is going to hate the OM. Funny though, my H thinks my OM is a nice guy and was cool, other than the falling in love w/me of course. They even had a conversation saying aside from the 'situation' that they would probly be friends, and that they both like eachothers music. I thought that was interesting. My H knows that the OM wasn't totally to blame for what has happened in our marriage. And in some respects we were both using the OM in our little 'game'. OM has no idea that H knew I was calling OM and was, somewhat, ok with it.

H did have some hatred for another OM i was talking to who was trying to convince me to meet him. I was not emotionally attached to this guy thou. Maybe H directed all his anger to this other one.

I'm still hanging in there. Still sad and depressed but moving ahead, somewhat.

-win

Yeah, we use his real name.

Owl & Sys, I had another thought and wonder if either of you could relate. My H feels that the OM from the beginning was looking for a woman to prey on. That since he had an A before, that's what he was doing. I don't believe that or ever will believe it. I know that the OM was truly trying to help me and he "had" a heart to help M's since he had an A and his M survived (well at least at that point!) I have read ALL of his posts on the forum we posted on and saw his heart to help marriages. I know he tried to keep things where we would not be attracted to each other in any way. But, I was the one who pushed to know his 'real name' and to see pictures of each other (after 5 months or so). WE FAILED because we chose to continue to communicate after I let go of the first OM. We should have said good-bye at that point, but neither of us could let go of our friendship we built.

I cannot convince my H of this, and I guess I probably never will or really need to. I am in NO WAY making out the OM to be a good guy because he had a heart to help, because I KNOW we both failed big time. But, I do know that is "inside of him" and for that I cannot think of him as a loser.

Win - Sorry to hear you are still sad and depressed. Keep looking forward and you will start to feel better soon.

2BN-

Yeah, we use his real name too. No point in calling him anything else. It doesn't change what happened or who he is.

I can't imagine you being able to convince your H that your OM wasn't 'looking' at least. I feel the same way about my wife's OM, and as far as I know, he was never involved in an A before. (I do know he was divorced, but neither of us know why he was)

Given that he HAS had an A before, I honestly can't imagine that he didn't see what was coming between the two of you in PLENTY of time to do something about it. I'm sorry, but I'm inclined to believe that your H is at least partially right. It sounds like your OM went into the situation knowing what would/could happen.

My situation is a little different, but since he KNEW she was married from the very first day, but decided to start contacting her outside of the game within a few days of having met, I can't imagine he didn't have ulterior motives the entire time. My wife isn't completely sure on that point...I've seen her opinion on that waver back and forth.

My feeling is this. From what my wife has told me, OM is a lonely guy. One of those guys who is friends with lots of women but unlucky at love. I know for that she felt sorry for him. She even talked at times of trying to help him meet women. At the same time in the capacity of being my W's friend, he became her confidant. He's a sensitive guy I guess and did a good job (know what? I'm a sensitive guy too and could have done a better job had my wife been able to talk to me). So combine a lonely guy, a sad, confused but extremely charismatic woman, throw in heart-t0-heart talks, daily companionship, attempts to help her (remember , he offered to drive us to MC if her could?) and what else could have happened?

I believe that OM is probably an otherwise decent sort, but, he fails utterly at being a moral person. He could have called it off at any time and chose not to. He chose to claim my wife as his own, he chose to aid in the destruction of my marriage and my family. For that I will always loathe him.

I think this is how my H feels, too. He feels I was taken advantage of and OM is a user and a loser. Really not a good idea for the BS's to bash the OM, because it puts us in the position of "defending" them, which I really don't want to do. The blame should be rightly placed on both parties.

I doubt that I will ever "hate" OM either....why would we? The traits that attracted us to these OM are things that we liked/needed.

Owl & Sys, I do understand the anger and hatred towards OM, but do you REALLY feel the OM is any worse of a person than us W's? Is there an additional inherent responsibility because they are the men? Do you feel it's the lowest of the low for a man to go after another man's wife? I think women feel that way about the reverse. You tell us repeatedly that we're not bad people, but made a bad choice. Can't that be the same for OM? Maybe it simply makes more sense to direct the anger at OM so that the BS can work on forgiving the WS? Just playing devil's advocate here....

You all are posting too fast!

This would seem to make the difference - if there was the intention on OM's part at the beginning. I would have to admit that this is the case in my situation, too. He knew full well that I was married, etc, when he wanted to start IM. I was extremely hesitant about that and questioned him over and over about his intentions. Initially, our conversations were completely innocent and about everyday events - no discussions ever about our M's. That's where my naivete comes into play. My OM had previous A's so I would suspect he knew exactly how the process works and how the relationships begin.

In my case, yes. My wife was vulnerable and in conflict. She was taken advantage of by someone looking for love. So yes, I do think that the OM was a worse person. And yes, it is the lowest of the low to take another man's woman -this is just a guy thing, but one that we have killed over. I've been "come on to" by a couple of friend's girlfriends in the past, and despite their desireability, and the ease with which I could have staked a claim, I chose not to because it ain't right. Sometimes we need to think with that thing above our waist, what's it called again? Oh yeah, our brain -and our hearts.

Either way, I LOVE my wife and becasue of that, forgiveness is a natural thing. I don't even know the SOB, could care less about him and his problems. That and it's helpful to have someone to direct the anger at other than my wife or myself. That may be the sad heart of the matter ,but whatever gets us through the day you know?

I think my H doesn't like to use the OM's name because it makes him feel that by using his name, he is like a friend (which he is not). We actually sometimes refer to them as #1, #2 or #3! I don't like to call the OM by their names if it bothers my H, but sometimes I do.


I agree he had PLENTY of time to do something about it. I think I mentioned the other day that right up front the OM said we should not talk personal or we could risk "liking each other". I just don't agree or will ever agree that it was his "original intention" to prey on me when he was trying to help me and I don't feel he was "looking". We had even talked about the fact that he didn't join that forum to "look for women". He posted on there for several years before he and I met. The OM and I talked much about his previous A because I had asked him many questions to help me understand my situation at the time. He was the one pursued in that A, but again he could have chosen to say no. During our A, because I had alot of knowledge about his previous A, I became jealous of his first OW and felt almost as if he had betrayed ME with her. He felt jealous of the previous OM in my life as well. We were both extremely jealous of each other's spouses as well.

Is it just because I'm the WS that I can't see it any other way?

Sys - the OM in my situation was a very sensitive person as well. He listened to me day after day for months about my struggles of the first OM. I do understand what you are saying that the OM fails at being a moral person. That's how my H sees the OM in our situation.

Cards-

As I think you may have figured out, I'm a Christian. And I have to tell you that I've REALLY struggled with forgiving the OM in our case. I have forgiven him at this point, but that does not change him into the kind of person that I want in my life, or around any of my family.

Yes, it may be that he 'just made a bad choice'. I can't really say for sure. In total honesty, I don't feel that I truly 'hate' him anymore...but I know that I don't like him, that I would never trust him with so much as the lint in my pocket. Because he not only created the situation that happened (by actively pursuing my wife knowing she was married...), but he did so CLAIMING TO BE MY FRIEND AS WELL!

At this point, he really isn't in my thoughts much anymore, except when we have discussions like this. Occasional things will bring the whole EA issue up in my mind, but I don't have thoughts of 'revenge' or intense feelings of hate like I used to. Honestly, when I think about the whole thing now, I just get a rememberance of the pain from the whole thing, the sadness that we went through it.