The odd thing is Owl, or maybe I shouldn't say odd, but common thread, is how they all (my W included) don't blame the game environment for being a catalyst. The one guildy I have some specifics on said that she always had some doubts about her marriage -sounds like the fog to me.My natural inclination is to jump in and meddle, but I think that unless invited I should stay out of it. I do wish though that these unhappy people could benefit from some experienced advice. Then again, advice is usually only taken if solicited.

Sigh

Sys-

I don't "blame" the game interface, but I agree that the game setting definitely makes it much easier for this kind of thing to happen. It's got all of the 'blinds' of a chat room...hiding behind your char, etc...but with none of the negative associations of most chat rooms.

In the chat sessions I'd captured when I "caught" my wife, OM actually brought up something with her that kinda pertains to this. He asked her why she was more "flirty" with her in game than in their IM sessions. She would make bolder statements to him in game (mostly via tells and emotes) than she would in their IM sessions when they were by themselves.

And I think that his reasoning was pretty sound...he thought that it might have been because the direct IM sessions were "too real"...so she was less likely to be intimate there than in game.

Just a thought, but I think he might have been right with that.

Cards and 2BN-
If ya'll would prefer that I take this conversation elsewhere so it doesn't cause you two any bad memories, please feel free to say so my friends.

Owl- Just getting around to replying on this. No it doesn't bother me.


I'm not sure I understand her reasoning? Unless she was just afraid of where it was heading when they were on IM...but that doesn't make sense since she was ready to take off with the OM.

Hope you are doing well Owl! How are things with your daughter?

2BN-

Good to hear from you friend. My daughter has pretty much gone nutso lately. Got evicted for fighting with one of the guys she was sharing the apartment with...suddenly quit talking to all of her friends, stopped going to work completely. One of her other roomates filed a missing persons report on her after 3 days of not being able to contact her...was a week after that before she finally decided to contact me and let the family know that she was OK. She's getting herself into a worse and worse situation...but nothing for me to do now but let her learn the hard way.

As far as your question above...

Well, my wife and OM had JUST reached the stage where they were talking about meeting to see if what they felt was "real" in person or not. She actually wasn't truly 'ready' to leave and live with him...but once she was caught and he offered for her to go, it seemed like her only choice at the time. Of course she wasn't up to facing what she had done, so going to him was her only way to avoid the guilt. It was a panic response on both of their parts more than it was any kind of premeditated plan. My catching them when I did was probably at the worst possible time for them...they couldn't deny what was going on, but it hadn't gotten to the point where they'd truly established what they wanted yet.

And I think that when she was talking with him "in the game"...it seemed less real to her there. I think she'd been convincing herself that what she was doing wasn't so bad...which is why she was always trying to set it up so that all 3 of us played together. If it was all 3 of us, it couldn't be wrong, could it? (even if she was sending him private messages and such...just pointing out her thinking here as I think I understand it)

But, carrying things over into one-on-one IM sessions...that was a little more harder to justify what she was doing. Same with the emails and phone calls. And so when he'd pressure her to 'be more intimate' in those sessions, she was uncomfortable. But flirting with him while we were all 3 in game didn't seem as bad to her...at least this is my thought.

She really hasn't thought much at all about all of this since it ended...and so she's managed to help herself "forget" a lot of what went on. And at this point I don't see a lot of benefit in trying to drag more info out of her...so we really don't talk much about it at all anymore.

And I have to admit...it's not on my mind nearly like it used to be at all either. Too many other stressors, enough reassurance from her that she won't do it again, all of this I guess.

I will say that I don't feel like our R is what it could be at this point...but I'm hoping some upcoming changes will help us deal with that.

Good Morning Owl.
You haven't heard from me for awhile.

I know you know that Cardsonly and 2BNormal and I share
emailing. We have become wonderful friends. We have been
able to share inner struggles that are too personal for MB.

We write our feelings without fear of rebuke;yet we give encouragement to always do what is right.

I don't know if you read my messages on 2longs Topic called:
"Contact Continues...unbefarginbelievable."

My message starts on page 2 of his thread and 2BNormal posted several messages. But there was a a bit of a ruckus,
so she went back and deleted all her messages.

2BNormal asked me to write you and let you know that OM and I are in NO CONTACT. It has only been a little over a week so I am definitely still in those awful withdrawals and wonderings about him.

Just like Cards, 2BNormal and your wife, it was the OM that said it was time to stop. It is always harder for us CHRISTIAN women to accept that we were so weak and didn't stop this on line affair ourselves; if we could have been the ones to say NO MORE CONTACT, it would have put us on the higher ground.

This is making me shaky to write here. Yet I know, Owl, you are one of the few MB betrayed spouses that want to hear from WW to help you understand your own wife better. You seem to not be offended if we are acting like SICK PUPPY DOGS missing the OP. You have been there with your wife and have a great compassionate understanding.

I admire you and your words of wisdom more than I can say.
Again thanks for always caring about all of us here on Card's thread.

Hi Owl -
So sorry to hear all that is going on with your daughter! I really hope things get better for her. Does she tell you what's going on with her life that she is behaving this way?

I understand now about your W and the IM vs. talking on the game. It really sounds like she was "not sure" of where it was headed and was trying to play it safe (in a way?). Not at all like what happened with me.


Why do you think this is? What do you plan on changing to help your recovery...if you care to share?

As you can tell, Cards, Mary and I are all emailing. I really believe that Mary is going to come out of this strong! As she said, she is in withdrawals right now and it helps for her to talk to 2 women who have "been there". I know she would appreciate some words from "Wise" old Owl!

Hi Owl & Sys....

I have not been keeping up here as my life continues to be hectic, and especially my "work world". Still struggling with software conversion from the fall!


Anyway, I am so glad to see the familiar names of you still writing. You were discussing how these online relationships progress from just "chatting" while playing games...to IM.....to phone calls.....to cams......to meeting. I think that is the natural progession from less personal to intimate. Your W recollection of how the OM observed her behavior is probably accurate. Once you move to a more personal venue, a closer "connection" is established. Each step makes it more personal & "real". Cameras and phone calls about 25 more levels "real" as you can "see" and "hear" personalities, not just read words and interpret tones and moods.

I still play my card games with many people. I have friends that I've known almost a year and played with, several of them men. BUT there is no inclination from them or me to move it to the more personal IM. I don't know any more about them than their "nickname" and how they play the game. With my OM it happened so quickly. I was naive, having NEVER IM before. It seemed sort of inherently wrong to me at the time, but when he suggested IM because it was so much easier to use and faster I didn't see the harm. Things did become much more personal because we didnt have the "distraction" of the games going on around us. The rest is history...........

My point is that conversing and "chatting" in these games situations does not necessarily lead to anything more. And while I was susceptible to OM's attention and interest, it is not as though every "tom, [censored], and harry" that comes along is going to enrapt a person into an EA. This was an isolated incident of 2 people with common interests and lives meeting up. In my opinion, no different than the "normal" way 2 people would meet and end up liking each other.

Owl...sorry about your problems with your daughter. I hope that she will make her decisions wisely and learn from her mistakes. Although my kids are all in their early teens and I know the hardest is yet to come for me in raising them, I think your stance is correct. There is only so much you can do when they get to a certain point. YOu have done your best to raise them and instill certain values in them. They have to learn from their mistakes....

Good luck!

Well my friends...I believe that the Owl's advice (wise or not) is going to either end or be greatly limited for a while.

I'm undergoing a semi-voluntary career change now...and so I'm not sure when/how I'll be able to post here in the future. I actually rather wish I could explore the possibility of becoming a counselor of sorts...but don't honestly expect that this will be a real possibility anytime in the forseeable future.

I'm very glad to hear that you've entered NC, IWRA. I would love to hear that in some small way the advice I've given has helped someone...that I might have made some small difference in helping someone somewhere.

I will come by and post when/if I can my friends...I continue to pray for the best for all of you, and know that God will guide and take care of you all.

Thanks for everything...

Owl

Owl -
Thank you for updating us. You have been a tremendous help to me over the months I posted on here! I wish you all the best in your career change and that you and your family will be blessed!

Friend Owl, your note of not having much time for MB anymore, makes me feel so sad. I don't think you know how much of a 'helping hand' you have given to us WW. You have steadfastly (for over a year) tried to gently pull us through our dark fogging thinking into the warm bright sunshine of Clear Thinking.

You are a very good counselor; never pushing but always encouraging;
ALWAYS giving LIFTING advice.

You make us feel like we are GOOD women even though what we did was BAD.

You encourage even those of us that are not yet FORMER WW; (FWW are accepted at MB with OPEN ARMS) those of us that are new to NO CONTACT with the OM or still struggling to get off the fence. You ALWAYS try to help us do what is right, IN A KIND WAY.

Owl, you would make a GREAT counselor.

Good Luck with your future job. Maybe you can check Cardsonly's thread at least once a week and post to add some of your 'sage words of wisdom'.

Thanks again for caring about us WW. You are an exceptionally understanding BH. Very very rare. A GEM.

P.S I hope everything works out for the best with your daughter and she soon makes a U-Turn in her life.

Owl....

I could not agree with IWRA more. You have stood by us and not judged us. You have helped and encouraged us, even when we have faltered. Your viewpoint has been invaluable in helping us WS see the perspective from our H's. You expressed your feelings based on being the BS and that helped me better understand what my H felt who was unable to express some of those feelings. You genuinely care, and that is what makes you different from some.

I know for me and others that post here or did post regularly, your words of advice and wisdom have at times stopped us or redirected our actions. I am SURE that there are many, many people that have read your writings here (10,000 hits on this thread!)and have been helped by your insights.

Please do your best to stay in touch with us. Good luck with your career change, and best wishes to you and your family.

Blessings to you, OWL

Owl -
I would like to echo what Cards and Mary wrote, but also need to add a few things.

There were many, many times that I came on here and posted honestly about my further communications with the OM, and the many other things I did. I respected your words and your gentle prodding. Even when you gave me some 2x4's to help me see the "light", those 2x4's were NEVER harsh and I always knew you meant them for my good because you truly cared for all of us on here. Your words of wisdom ALWAYS made me stop and think about what I was doing and what I needed to do to correct it. For your words, I am ever thankful for pushing me on the right track for my marriage!

As Cards also mentioned, you will never really know how many other WW's you may have helped on here that were not brave enough to post!

Please do stay in touch when you can!

God Bless!

Well, it appears that I've got about 30 days to determine what my future will be like, career-wise at least. So, I should be able to post occasionally through that time I think.

Remember this friends...YOU were the ones who made the right choices to get yourselves out of the situations that you were in. It's easy to blame yourself when you can so clearly see where you did something wrong...and then not be able to give yourself the credit for doing the things to make amends for what you've done too. All I did was let you bounce things off of me...you were the ones who made the choice to fix your situations. And of course, God really has been right there for all of us. He is the true source of light in these tough times.

I do pray that things continue to work out for each of you. And IWRA, I truly believe that you're going to see things getting better soon. Even sooner than you think is possible. Sticking to NC is TOUGH...but so worth it. I guess I'd suggest to you that you use your hurt and anger at OM wanting to end it to make some changes for yourself. Start by deleting the IM and email accounts that he used to communicate with you...make it so that if HE slips, you wont' be the one to suffer for it. Start doing things that make you feel better...ESPECIALLY things that you can share with your H. Begin rebuilding that relationship (for now, just work on rebuilding that FRIENDSHIP if you have trouble with the rest of it) that you've had with your husband. Try to rediscover what it was about him that made you fall in love with him...and try to ignore those twinges of feelings that will crop up over OM for now.

I will continue to suggest that you tell your H...but at the moment, I'd suggest you concentrate on the intitial withdrawl and how to handle that. But...if you feel that it's getting to be too much...then be honest with your H about what has gone on...and ask him for his help in this. He'll be angry and hurt, make no mistake...but the chance to rebuild your R with him can start there too.

Thank you all for the kind thoughts and words...all I've done is try to help you see clearly in a time when it's hard to do so. Good luck friends...I'll post when I can.

Hi Owl -
Here I am seeking advice again from you! I hope you are able to read this today!

I know you know that I struggled for some time being on that forum where I met the OM. Well, the struggles continued since I last posted on it. The OM came back in January with a new s/n and I knew it was him from his first post. He started to post with great frequency recently, knowing full well that I was on there. He never spoke to me directly, but we were on a few threads together and actually posted directly on those threads about each other's posts.

Well, I had been praying about this for some time because I just can't seem to keep myself from looking at the forum. Yesterday, a way was made. I was able to put the OM in a postition to where he had to reveal who he was on there. He started a thread that admitted his failures with me. I posted in return and admitted that I was the poster he was referring to. I asked other posters if the 2 of us should be posting on this forum and it seems that most agree we should not be there. The OM saw this as well (finally!) and he is not posting and either am I. It was quite emotional yesterday!

NOW...I need to tell my husband. I need to share with him what happened and how I struggled and how this ended. He is away right now until Saturday night, so I have a few days to think through this. I want to show him the exact thread this happened on, but at the same time I am worried that he may take some of my posts the wrong way. There were several that I sound conflicted and asked the OM to consider staying on the forum and that he had much to offer there. I wrote this without thinking it through as it was all happening so fast.

To be clear, my husband knew I was posting there, but I never told him the OM returned. I actually thought the OM left there in December, but he returned with a new s/n at the beginning of January.

I just need your advice here! Thanks!

Alright 2BN-

We're going to play a game. LOL...trust me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here's the thing. You pretend to be me. Give me the advice you think I would give you in the exact same circumstance. Reread your post as though it was someone else's (mine)...and give me what YOU think Owl would say.

While you're doing that, I'll write my actual response to you in a Word .doc. And after you've posted, I'll respond with mine and we'll see how close they match.

My money is that you already know what I'm gonna say. You know what the right thing to do here is. What I really want to do is show you that you don't need anyone to help you with this...you simply have to do what you know is right.

So...start thinking and typing, and I'll do the same.

Ok Owl...as I wrote my post, I did know what you would say..LOL! I've been very emotional about this since yesterday afternoon and I cannot tell my husband until at least Saturday or Sunday! He returns Sat. night, so depending on the time and how tired he is, it may be better to wait until Sunday.

YOU would tell me to be totally HONEST with him! I plan to do that! I plan to share with him my struggles. He knew I struggled with this in the past, but when I thought the OM left the forum, I felt comfortable in posting and my husband let me. He never checked up on me though or asked me if the OM returned. Not an excuse...I know!

I am AFRAID of what he will think of these posts. These are the 2 things (on 2 separate posts)I said that I am worried about :



How would you feel if you read this and it was your wife that wrote this to the OM (on a public forum) over a year since the EA ended?

I can explain it to him just as I told you. My emotions were running wild with what was happening. I was torn by what was going on because I knew it was hurting the OM.(he won't want to hear that!) I know the OM gains much from the forum (he won't want to hear that either!), but yet I knew the best thing possible is for NEITHER of us to post there. The OM admitted that he tried to "hide" from me and that he put up "blinders" to the fact that I was there on the forum!

I will tell him that I will not ever write on the forum again, unless I have his permission to do so in the future. I will tell him it was so very wrong of me for hiding this from him! I'm rambling here....

I need to add that those 2 "parts" of my posts were in response to him writing on his posts that he needs to say goodbye to everyone on the forum...

Pretty good 2BN...here's what I wrote. I'm going to quote it so that you can see what was already wrote before I came back and read your response.


As far as how he'll respond to those two specific posts...you know him better than I do. Personally, I'd likely be so angry with my wife for responding at all that I'd likely tell her that if she truly feels that she's got to take care of him at the expense of me and our marriage, then I would give some serious thought as to where her love really is...him or me?

You CAN'T do anything to console, care for, nurture, etc... for OM and still do anything positive for your marriage. The two are diametrically opposed...it's just not possible. ANYTHING you do for OM is a direct subtraction from your H's love bank...period. No other way to view this, at least from where I'm at.

So...now you need to think about how you can regain the lost trust, and start getting some credits back into that love bank.

My thoughts anyway.

Thanks Owl...some things to think about.

I need to mention that the OM knew who I was on there since at least December (I can't be sure if he figured out who I was before that). If you remember the incident where I sent him a forward of some info about the forum (at the beginning of Dec.), and then he called my husband?? After that happened, I made a post on the forum to let him know I knew who he was. He knew it was me then and then he backed off the forum. I thought he was gone for good. But, January he reappeared with a new s/n trying to hide from me while knowing that I was posting.

We basically played a cat and mouse game with each other on the forum. He knew who I was and I figured out who he was (but he didn't know that until yesterday!) It was wrong wrong wrong...I admit that. I didn't have the willpower to walk away from the forum while he was posting there! I didn't think it was very fair that he played this "hiding game" from me and that I would have to leave the forum because he was playing this "hiding game". Yesterday, another poster asked the OM if had been on the forum in the past and had recently signed on with a new s/n in Jan. Someone else caught on to that he posted there in the past. That is where I asked him to tell the truth. I wanted it all exposed so that both of us had NO CHOICE but to BOTH leave the forum and that I would have peace from all of it.

I know you told me in the past to just walk away from there, but I'll tell you it wasn't that simple for me. To me there was more to it. I didn't feel the OM was playing fair! I didn't feel it was fair that I had to go and he could stay!

Maybe you don't understand, but it's how I felt and it was causing me such turmoil!

I'll consider everything you said. I do know the OM won't be back on the forum. He posted that he won't even come back under a new s/n since his posting style is "easily recognized".

BTW, both Mary and Cards know all the details...I just decided to get some extra confidence from you...I knew what you would say!

I'm sorry if my 2x4 seemed a bit harsh, and I do hope you realize it's not a personal attack on you. I simply wanted you to understand something that I've tried to make clear to you for a while now... THE LONGER YOU CARE AT ALL ABOUT THE OM IN ANY FASHION OR FORM, THE MORE LIKELY YOU ARE TO DO PERMENANT DAMAGE TO YOUR MARRIAGE. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative...you have got to let him go COMPLETELY.

If you don't, at some point it's entirely possible that your H will simply 'give up'. NO ONE can fight forever...we all get tired and weary at some point.

So 2BN, please start realizing that what you're doing could very well have long term repercussions that you've not thought about yet.

You've made the choice that your H and your marriage is more important to you...now you need to match your actions to your words. You need to APPLY that choice.

I can understand that it's not easy...but it's imperative that you do so NOW...before you find out what I'm telling you too late to be able to work things out.

So, to sum it up. Quit caring about whether OM should be on that site, quit letting him into your thoughts at all anymore. He is NOT your concern any longer...in any fashion. Focus instead on your MARRIAGE. If you don't, the risk is there that you could lose it if you don't maintain it.