Sys-

I think what you found out is that your W is struggling much the same as us on here. She IS still in withdrawal and has urges, but she is also upholding NO CONTACT. THAT is the key. I am glad she has a friend that will talk her out of it and help it pass. This should tell you that she has made the choice to work on the M. She is working hard to let go of OM and give your M a chance. As far as only temporarily doing no contact, in my thinking about withdrawal and the letting go process, I cannot even imagine that I would want to revisit all of that misery -especially KNOWING that the R with OM was not destined to go anywhere. By her making the decision to have no contact, she has rectified in her mind that the R with OM is over.

I will tell you that it's awfully hard to accept no contact FOREVER in our brains. We know intellectually that it must be that way, but I honestly believe that it's just one day at a time for most of us. As more and more time goes by for me, and I see that a future with OM was really never a possibility, I see the reality of my M. Does that knowledge make me not think of him? Absolutely not. Those two points are not mutually exclusive.

But, I do know that the problem is here at home with our M. Again, the choices are to be made HERE by me and my H. I think your W knows that too.

I have to go back to some ideas Owl and I were pondering about women and EA's. I REALLY believe that women, in general, are more emotionally bound. I think we attach deeper and have a harder time detaching. I think that for me it was also a gradual pulling away from my H. I didn't just wake up one day and feel nothing for him. Just my opinion and observations - I have no facts to support it. For this reason I think it's much harder for men to be patient and give this process time. Maybe men cannot even fathom what the big deal is, for if they were in this situation maybe they would just get over it and move on?

I know you want her to fall back in love with you right now, but as I said in an earlier post the M didn't get in this shape overnight, and it won't be repaired overnight either. I think you have to accept that it will take time, and that right now in this stage of the game she is still fighting to let go of OM. She's not able to turn her thoughts to how she can love you. That doesn't mean give up. That just means allow her the space and time she needs.

Hi everyone. Hope you all had a good weekend.

Sys - how did the rest of your weekend go? After just reading what Cards wrote, I would have to agree that it is still hard for me as well to think of NC forever. I know it's what I have to do and I know I will not ever go back to the OM, but it's still hard to think of NC forever with someone that I cared about. I feel things are really going well with my M and H right now, yet still I think of the OM at times.

Also, your W was really honest with you about her urges to contact the OM. That is a good sign that she can communicate that to you and that she is working really hard on NC. I have a hard time telling my H that sometimes I just get these thoughts to contact the OM or just think of him. I NEVER would contact him, but these thoughts run through my head every once in awhile. I don't intentionally make myself think these thoughts either. They just sort of pop in my head and there must be something that triggers it...I just don't know what it is at times.

Hope everyone else is doing well - Cards, Owl, Win...hope you had a good weekend.

Thanks for that Cards -just what I needed to hear. I do know that my W is commited to working on us and I know it's been a real struggle. I also know that most of my impatience (which I don't push on her btw) stems from insecurity. I won't feel secure until I know that we are back on track. As long as she is fighting urges to contact him and not feeling love for me, I feel adrift and scared. I am comforted by her efforts though and your insights have helped me enormously -thanks for that.

I think we are both still set back a bit by the realization that we are both still having a hard time overcoming our urges (mine to spy and hers to make contact) I guess she wins in that department in that she isn't giving in to the urge. At least the MC made it clear to her: "He's going to do it again -this takes time". Still I think this was a minor blip and in the end, I still believe it did more good than harm. I wasn't having an easy time finding opportunities to talk about important stuff and this provided a catalyst. I think it gave me a chance to show my wife that although there is still a lot of hurt and sadness, that we can talk without it turning into real awfulness. Our talk on Friday probably did a bit of LBing -but generally it did OK. We seem to be back on track although she did seem a bit distant this weekend. No doubt the events of Friday probably seriously stirred the pot for both of us. We had been moving along for quite some time doing well with each other despite our inner struggles. I think we'll get back to that point again soon.

We have some good stuff coming up soon that I think will help. In particular we are going on vacation next month with my family. A week of free babysitting at the beach might do us some good. It seems that being with family instead of creating additional stress, actually gives us a chance to just be a family.And it's a week away from the internet and the abilty to even think about making contact (at the same time I won't have you guys).

Anyway, hope you all had a good weekend and thanks again for getting me through this latest crisis.

Quote by Cards:

I think it depends on what side you are on here (BS vs. WS). My H doesn't understand why I would keep hanging onto thoughts of the OM. I should be able to just move on from this he feels, but he is trying to be patient with me if I bring something up. He can't even fathom how I would even get involved in an EA to begin with. I KNOW for a fact that the OM struggled with the NC and thoughts of me. I KNOW he just didn't 'get over it and move on', so is that unusual because he is a man? I don't think so. I think when we get involved in the EA, there is an attachment that seems so strong whether you are male or female.

Sys - It sounds like you have some positive and fun events coming up with your vacation. It will give you some needed time away from the every stresses of life and time to focus on each other.

Obviously my W's OM has the same issue -he's made at least 2 attempts now to make contact -not directly but otherwise. I saw a message he sent my wife shortly after d-day. He seems like a sensitive guy, he's lost someone important to him -he doesn't even begin to understand what he has lost. Point is, of course men feel the loss.

Of course, my sympathy for him is non-existant. In that same note he said that at first he felt bad about what they had done to me but now he didn't -that he hated me (much the way I feel about him...)What he did was inexcusable and frankly so is what he is doing now. But isn't that exactly the stuff A's are made of? If we led with our intellects, our sense of right and wrong these things would never happen right?

I just hope that he doesn't get desperate enough to escalate things. I imagine if he did, my wife would react negatively. She told me early on that if he showed up at our door that would be it -that she couldn't abide by that kind of violation.

You know, I have to wonder what is feeding his desperation. I guess part of it is not knowing. Part of it is the passage of time, the longer it goes the worse his chances I supppose (I hope). Mostly he probably just misses her and doesn't want to lose her. From what my wife has told me, he's a lonely guy -hasn't had much in the way of relationships in the past, so I can imagine he saw my W as his lucky break (he doesn't know how lucky).

Anyway, I don't care to figure out his problems too much, just hope that he goes away forever.

Sys - The longer that your W and the OM are in NC and the longer he gets no response to his "efforts", hopefully will cause the OM to go away.

I just looked at when NC started for your W and trying to figure out how I was at that stage and how the OM was. In my case, the OM and I still had some contact for several months after D-Day and we did let each other know when we were struggling. But, I KNOW the OM knew what he was doing was wrong and that his desire was to follow God and do what was right, he was just weak as I was. He rose up to the need to do what was right and kept strong at it when he decided that it was necessary for both of us.

Hopefully the OM of your W will do the same.

Sys-

You said:



I understand that is a scary feeling and she broke the security and trust of the M by the EA - certainly very big issues. Keep in mind, though, that she may not have been feeling a lot of love before the EA. So, in a sense, maybe that was a false feeling of security that you felt before the EA. That doesn't sound like any consolation, but for myself I actually feel closer to my H than before. This whole thing has forced us to examine the M, talk about the M, our feelings, all of that. Maybe I'm not feeling a lot of "love" per se, but I feel a greater connection and the realization that we HAVE to work on our M - ultimately a GOOD thing and maybe even a blessing that will SAVE our M in the long run.

I understand the concern about OM contacting your W. Not only do you have to trust your W, in a way you have to trust OM, too. Even MORE important that NC is upheld. If he were to continue to try to contact more steps would need to be taken - pc use, etc.

I did not mean to imply that men don't get involved and/or attached, that's certainly not true. Maybe I say that because it seems many men can't/won't extract their feelings and verbalize them. I think the emotion and attachment is there, but sometimes they're not aware of it. That would not be the case for the men posting here.

Cards-

You said in your previous post that:

I hope that you can appreciate this, but from a BS perspective, that is just flat impossible!!! There is no way possible that any BS could consider that...especially if the OM was someone that the BS knew in any way at all.

I knew my wife's OM reasonably well. I also can admit that he did some decent things towards the end to assist in finally ending the contact and such. But...that does NOT change the fact that he also carried on the A, with the full knowledge of what he was doing, knowing who he was going to hurt, and how. I'm sorry my friend, but there's just no way that any BS could consider trusting the OM/OW to do the right thing...they blew that chance when the A occurred.

That's why it's soooo critical for the WS to take the steps to rebuild the BS's trust. Because the WS or FWS is the ONLY person who stands the chance of doing so...and it's not easy. It's WORK, and it takes time to do.

Last nite we logged into game for the first time in ages. And ran into an old friend who hadn't been on in a long time. A guy that I feel that my wife FIRST started to have an EA with...she never realized it at the time, but we've talked about it since, and she can see where it looked like it was headed down that path. We did game with him for a bit, and my wife could tell that I was feeling kind of odd about it. I KNOW that everything is fine, and she's not attracted to this guy, but it STILL raises my hackles after what we've gone through. If she hadn't rebuilt that trust with me, it would have been unbearable, instead of just a little uncomfortable.

Sys-

I know it's not easy friend. It's hard to deal with. And I highly doubt that your wife can possibly understand just how insecure and scared you're feeling right now...she's not going through it herself. I know that my wife didn't understand it. All you can do is keep working on NOW...keep helping to fill her EN's, and to help her stick to NC. As far as 'spying' on her...well, she needs to understand that you DON'T trust her at this point...that you know the struggle she's going through, and that you're scared that she's going to slip. That your scared that all the work you've done over these past months will be totally lost due to a mistake. She needs to realize that she has to EARN that trust back.

My wife took it HARD when she realized I was checking on her. Until a few weeks after the LAST contact with OM...and then she realized that I wasn't checking expecting to find anything...that I was checking to REASSURE myself.

See if that helps with the perspective a little my friend.

That is exactly what I told my W -that I check more for reaasurance than b/c I suspect anything -at first it was different, but now, it's something I do to make myself feel better.

The one icky part about Friday's deal was that once she had time to think about it, she felt like I had trapped her by not telling her up front I had seen her logged in. I toild her that I didn't expect her to cover up. All I asked was "did you see his post" and she said "no". At that point I said, are you sure, b/c I saw that you were logged in, and then she had to fess up -definitley not our most graceful moment. I humiliated her, she humliated herself, what does it matter? We both felt awful. But I'm hoping it will demonstrate the need for truth. I mean jeez, we teach and expect as much from our 4 year old.

Realize that you're not going to agree on the 'spying' thing for a while I think friend. She feels like you 'trapped' her...but what she doesn't want to say is that she DID lie to you...and you caught her at it...and THAT has her embarassed, so she's shifting the blame to you instead of taking it on herself. She's still not willing to take responsibility for her actions...still part of the fog that she's going through.

It will probably take some time for her to get to a point where she will start to see things normally. Like you said, she's behaving in a manner that you wouldn't accept from your 4 year old. But she refuses to see that at this point, because it doesn't paint her in a very pretty light.

My wife went through some similar times. It's a defense mechanism...she'll throw the blame back on me for something. Whenever we have an issue related back to the EA or something to do with it, her first response is always "this will NEVER end!!!"....which is her trying to tell me that it's all MY fault. I don't accept that, but she still does it.

Hang in there friend. Talking with her about it may have limited success at this point, since she's still acting this way. Odds are, she's still not going to be able to admit, even to herself, when she's doing wrong.

Owl-



So sorry, Owl, apparently bad wording on my part. I certainly didn't mean the BS would/should be able to trust the OM, the BS is barely able to trust the WS! I merely meant that it really complicates things to have both parties fighting the NC. What I should've said is that the BS can only HOPE that the OP will stay away.

I agree with you, totally, it is the WS RESPONSIBILITY to follow through with the NC. Blame should not be placed elsewhere.

Owl, I know you've told us 100 times, but how were you able to gut through the time it took for withdrawal? How long would you say it was before your W REALLY and TRULY felt endeared to you? And what exactly do you attribute that turn around to? Thank you!

Cards-

Well, my wife's EA only lasted no more than two months, and I think that was a contributing factor to the length of her withdrawl. Add to that the fact that I really am a terrific husband and all around great guy (wow, it's getting deep in here) and my willingness to see her side in things, her HARD withdrawl only lasted about a month.

Now, she still had withdrawl in wanting to see/talk with/etc... the OM in some capacity for a while...but her desire to 'be' with him ended in that timeframe.

I made it through it just because I'm too stubborn to give up. I refused to end our marriage knowing how good things could be between us. It was HARD. I lost almost 30lbs total during that timeframe...and was sleeping less than 4 hours a nite. I was taking walks up to 6 miles a day to keep from hovering over her, or sitting down in my room by myself crying. I cried myself to sleep almost every nite, but never let her know that. (she still doesn't know that) I talked with my few friends about what was going on.

I could understand that she was going through the grief of losing that relationship. But, like your husbands, I had NO IDEA of the strength of that relationship, and so the severity of her grief and withdrawl was a complete and utter shock to me. I could NOT understand how she could feel so badly over the loss of something that 'might have been'...to me, it couldn't have been real.

I still struggle with it when she says that she loved him. I don't dispute it with her, but it's very hard for me to accept that she loved someone that she never met...someone that she knew for such a short time and in such a limited way. Again, I think back to the chapter in 'The Five Love Languages' that talks about the difference between 'in love' and 'loving someone'. She loved what she PERCEIVED of him...but she can't see that, and probably never will.

At any rate, I made it through her withdrawl by putting myself in her shoes as much as I could, by trying to love her and take care of her where she'd let me, and putting my own pain and grief to one side. In short, I did the opposite of MB's plan, and made healing HER my mission. And it worked.

And my wife has NEVER been one to do something halfway. When she made the choice to let herself 'love' me again, she did it completely. She didn't let herself dwell on the OM at that point. I know she still thought of him, and she still wanted to 'keep him as a friend'...but once she made the choice to heal US, it was the end of her dreaming of being with him. She just refused to let those thoughts keep going after that.

Realize that I know that she never stopped loving me. She simply refused to let herself see that love while she was still 'blinded' by her relationship with OM. Once that relationship ended, and she finally raised her head enough to look around, I was still there, still loving her, and working on making the changes we needed in order for our marriage to survive.

Hope this maybe provides some perspective.

I, MYSELF, had no idea the strength of the R either until it threatened to be gone. Everything you describe above was a shock to me, too. It made no logical sense. Those things are what I still struggle with. Owl & Sys, do your wives acknowledge this as well?



This is just another unexplainable piece of it, that a sensible person could become so emotionally immersed. At some point, I think all the parties involved have to somehow accept the impact that the R had, and accept that there are some parts we may not ever totally understand. Owl, I'm sure your W's love for you is much different than how she would describe the "love" for OM.

I can't say that my W has ever expressed any kind of bewilderment. I think she accepts it at face value. She accepts how she feels and felt as "it was what it was". She knows she doesn't know the guy, and has said as much -that they are both mourning the loss of the "idea of a person". That said, she believes that this guy was right for her. Our MC was very forceful about the neccessity of the non-verbal element in forming "real" relationships. How lopsided IM and phone only relationships are.

All that said, you can't deny the fact that your spouse was in love with this stranger. Reality is perception. If she says she felt in love, who am I to say she wasn't? My task is to show her what I can be to her; here and in the flesh, part of the real world with it's good and bad.

Actually, I think that she understood how strong she felt for him even before it looked like it was going to end...after all, she was all set to fly to live with him and leave me when it was all out in the open. They'd talked about it for a while...and she's commented since that 'they fought it for a long time'...not really sure what that fight looked like, but there ya go.

The only time I've ever asked her to 'compare' her love for OM to her love for me was the morning of d-day...and she told me then that she felt that she loved him, and had fallen out of love with me.

I've never asked her about how her feelings for him compare to her feelings for me since. Partially because it's irrelevent at this point, and partially because I honestly think that she's still convinced that she was in love with him, and all the answer to that question would do is to hurt me again. It IS tough too, because the main reason she was so attracted to him in the first place is because he and I had very similar personalities...and so often had similar mannerisms as well. I think she was attracted to him BECAUSE of that...because in a way he had my personality in a situation OUTSIDE of our stressful homelife (not to mention that physically he's closer to her 'ideal' than I am...aint that a pain to admit).

Right now I try to keep focused on the fact that she's in love with me NOW. And it's NOW that counts, not what she felt then. As long as we never get back to that...we'll be ok.

2BN-

I saw your last post, but then it seems to have disappeared before I could respond to it.

I hope you're doing alright.

I deleted it because I felt I was being too harsh on my H. I deserve what he speaks to me...just feel like a loser and I must be if he says so.

2BN-

Realize that it's not a matter of DESERVING that kind of comments. No one 'deserves' it.

Your husband was venting, just like you do here at times. I have to admit, I've felt the same way toward my wife in the past. Because from my perspective, it was a CHOICE to get involved in an EA with someone else. I've had opportunity and temptation to do the same thing...but chose not to do so.

Your husband undoubtedly feels the same way. And for whatever reason, watching that show triggered him to vent that. Accept his apology if you're able to, because I'm sure that he absolutely feels bad for hurting you with his words. All of us BS's feel that way sometimes, he simply chose a bad way of expressing those feelings.

Hang in there friend. Remember this...you're NOT a bad person. You've made some bad choices, but you're NOT a bad person.

I suppose he was venting. But why does it seem so simple to the BS? It's so black and white. Don't get involved in an EA or A. We WS's know that it was wrong, but yet we made the wrong choice. I wish I could go back and understand why I chose to make the choices I did those particular days that enabled these A's and for me to make these wrong choices.

I do accept his apology, and he will act like everything is OK today and move on. We should have never watched the show yesterday. I'm still sorting through all the why's but he doesn't need to at this point.

I guess it seems so simple to the BS because we've never made that mistake. Of course, we make tons of others. But I can't tell you why you chose to go ahead with a R with someone else, anymore than your H can tell you that.

I can't honestly tell you that I completely understand my wife's choice to do the same thing. I understand what she was going through at the time...but wasn't I going through the exact same thing from the other side??? It's hard for the BS to comprehend WHY the WS would choose to do what they've done...often, it's the BS who was working all that time to hold the M together. I know that I was in our case...and while I was fighting as hard as I could to figure out what the problems were in our M, and what could be done to fix them, SHE chose to emotionally invest in someone else. Not an easy thing to deal with. I can imagine(guess) that your husband may have felt that it was the same for him.

I am NOT saying he was right for blowing up on you. Not at all. I'm simply trying to help you see his viewpoint if you can.

But remember this when it's all said and done...he STILL loves you. He's STILL with you. And he's STILL trying to do the best that he can to make things work out for the both of you.